Author Topic: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us  (Read 2974 times)

mastrr

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We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« on: July 09, 2019, 07:37:13 PM »
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mastrr

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 08:25:03 PM »
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/5/8/18535475/denver-psilocybin-psychedelic-magic-mushrooms-decriminalization-vote

everything in this world is an effect of another cause.  so there has to be an initial cause that was not caused by anything else.

Kris

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 08:37:18 PM »
Psh.

Waste of time.

Laserjet3051

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2019, 08:39:33 PM »
give it another 10 hours and the hallucinations should start to wear off son.

mastrr

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 08:48:49 PM »
The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

2. Nothing exists prior to itself.

3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.

4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).

5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).

8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.

9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

Kris

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 09:01:42 PM »
The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

2. Nothing exists prior to itself.

3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.

4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).

5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).

8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.

9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

I sense that you may be speaking to yourself.

Also, you know that these arguments have been presented hundreds of times before, right?

But if it helps you... enjoy.

mastrr

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 09:27:51 PM »
The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

1. We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

2. Nothing exists prior to itself.

3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.

4. If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).

5. Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

7. That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).

8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.

9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

I sense that you may be speaking to yourself.

Also, you know that these arguments have been presented hundreds of times before, right?

But if it helps you... enjoy.

I'm typing on a keyboard on a computer and it can be interpreted by anyone who wishes to read this thread.

Given St. Thomas Aquinas lived in the 1200's and it's sound logic I'd assume so.

MrDelane

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 09:50:30 PM »
2. Nothing exists prior to itself.
This is an assertion that must be proved.

Quote
3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
This is a conclusion based on an unproven assertion.
It also attempt to smuggle in the existence of a "world of things we cannot perceive," which is something that would have to be proven.

Quote
6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
Again, this is an assertion that would need to be proved.

Quote
8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
Again, this is a conclusion based on an unproven assertion.

Quote
9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
If all assertions above were actually proven then at best you could claim there was a first cause. This first cause could just as easily be the 'big bang' or any other number of things - jumping to the conclusion that it would be any sort of 'God' is simply an assertion with no backing.

Chaplin

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2019, 10:49:19 PM »
MMMMMMMMMMM....troll food!

mastrr

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2019, 01:16:15 AM »
2. Nothing exists prior to itself.
This is an assertion that must be proved.

Quote
3. Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.
This is a conclusion based on an unproven assertion.
It also attempt to smuggle in the existence of a "world of things we cannot perceive," which is something that would have to be proven.

Quote
6. If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.
Again, this is an assertion that would need to be proved.

Quote
8. Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.
Again, this is a conclusion based on an unproven assertion.

Quote
9. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
If all assertions above were actually proven then at best you could claim there was a first cause. This first cause could just as easily be the 'big bang' or any other number of things - jumping to the conclusion that it would be any sort of 'God' is simply an assertion with no backing.

can you provide an example of something that exists prior to itself with no cause?

using this logic the Big Bang could not be the first cause because there had to be something that caused the Big Bang etc.

MrDelane

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2019, 06:52:41 AM »
can you provide an example of something that exists prior to itself with no cause?
I'm not required to provide anything, I'm not the one making a claim.
The burden of proof is on you to back up the assertions - otherwise, while the argument might be valid, there is no way to consider it sound.

Quote
using this logic the Big Bang could not be the first cause because there had to be something that caused the Big Bang etc.

using this logic, 'God' could not be the first cause because there had to be a something that caused 'God,' etc (otherwise you'd be engaged in special pleading).

GuitarStv

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2019, 07:25:55 AM »
can you provide an example of something that exists prior to itself with no cause?

using this logic the Big Bang could not be the first cause because there had to be something that caused the Big Bang etc.

Russell's teapot exists prior to itself with no cause.  Prove me wrong.

Brother Esau

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2019, 08:12:41 AM »
Yeah, I remember my first beer.

mastrr

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2019, 07:17:17 PM »
Yeah, I remember my first beer.

are you familiar with Esau of the Bible?

FIREstache

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2019, 09:00:53 PM »
ahhh.... proof at last!

waltworks

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2019, 09:07:32 PM »
It's turtles all the way down.

-W

jim555

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2019, 01:03:33 AM »
Quantum mechanics says nothing is real until it is observed.  So what comes first, reality or observation?  Chicken or egg problem.

GuitarStv

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2019, 06:56:49 AM »
If we're getting into quantum mechanics . . . the act observing something changes it from what it was into something different.  Therefore it follows that it's impossible to know anything since ultimately our only source of knowledge is observation.

Now we can all go about our business.

bwall

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2019, 07:05:54 AM »
can you provide an example of something that exists prior to itself with no cause?
God?

YttriumNitrate

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2019, 07:29:16 AM »
I missed the original post before it got snipped, but of course something outside this world made us: a giant star. Our sun is mainly just "burning" hydrogen into helium. To get all the cool arrangement of elements we have such as oxygen, neon, silicon, magnesium, sulfur and iron, a much bigger star is needed.

GuitarStv

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2019, 07:43:38 AM »
If we're getting into quantum mechanics . . . the act observing something changes it from what it was into something different.  Therefore it follows that it's impossible to know anything since ultimately our only source of knowledge is observation.

Now we can all go about our business.

Building on the best way to approach the universe, all math is a lie.

One third is 0.3 repeating

1/3 = 0.33333333333....
3 * 1/3 = 3 * 0.33333333333....

Therefore:
1 = 0.9999999999.....
1 != 1

Chaos ensues.

jim555

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2019, 09:13:07 AM »
Noodle baking fact:
According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense that two distinct events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space.

Brother Esau

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2019, 01:53:05 PM »
Yeah, I remember my first beer.

are you familiar with Esau of the Bible?

Somewhat. Do you know the song "Brother Esau"?

ketchup

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2019, 03:49:24 PM »
Noodle baking fact:
According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense that two distinct events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space.
My favorite neural copulator of this nature that photons basically don't experience time.  From their reference frame, they are emitted and absorbed with no time in between, even if from our perspective they traveled for billions/trillions of years.

undercover

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2019, 08:36:40 PM »
It's turtles all the way down.

-W

Simulations* all the way down! :)

EvenSteven

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2019, 06:14:10 AM »
It's turtles all the way down.

-W

Simulations* all the way down! :)

Exactly the sort of thing a simulation would say!

MasterStache

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2019, 06:45:13 AM »
Nahh that's an easy one. Evolution is fantastic. All the building blocks of life exist in abundance in the universe. The universe itself is nothing short of absolute chaos, destruction and death. Just ask the 99% of all species that no longer exist (obviously rhetorical question). The dinosaurs themselves suffered an absolutely horrible death.

We exist thanks to nature. And nature will see to our extinction as well. So goes the circle of life. Except until the sun cannot support life anymore and our planet eventually ceases to exist.

"Down there between our legs, it's like an entertainment complex in the middle of a sewage system. Who designed that?" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

ysette9

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2019, 10:37:33 AM »
This is a little like talking with my 5 year-old. She is convinced that reincarnation happens and that she will come back as a baby later  after she dies. She even wondered last weekend what her new mother would be like. I tried to extend the logic to point out that must mean she was someone else before she was my baby, but her brain doesnít seem to have expanded to include events before she was born yet. (When she saw our wedding photos she wanted to know where she was then. I told her she hadnít been born yet and she in turn asked if she had been staying with her grandparents that day.) She even asked me if I wanted to come back as a baby after I die. When I said that I wasnít sure she assured me that I had lots and lots of time to think about it. :)

I donít actually believe in reincarnation in the traditional sense at all, but as I told my kid, she will just have to wait and find out. I do like the more literal sense of reincarnation in that the matter that exists did exists and will continue to exist (more or less, barring transformation into energy), and so the molecules that make up my body become compost which may become another plant that is eaten by someone pregnant who uses those molecules to make a new baby. I realize it is more likely the molecules of me will end up in a myriad of other destinations, but the recycling aspect makes me happy.

scottish

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2019, 10:06:47 AM »
It's turtles.   All the way down.


MrDelane

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2019, 10:40:24 AM »
It seems this thread is now heading towards an infinite regress.

MasterStache

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2019, 04:28:11 PM »
It seems this thread is now heading towards an infinite regress.

It was a trolling thread straight from the start. ( :

MrDelane

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2019, 05:59:23 PM »
It seems this thread is now heading towards an infinite regress.

It was a trolling thread straight from the start. ( :

I don't disagree... and I kind of love that we've reached a point where quoting St. Thomas Aquinas is considered trolling.

partgypsy

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2019, 07:20:10 PM »
It's turtles all the way down.

-W

hey I was going to say that!

(I'm not saying it's turtles, but I think it's turtles)

all kidding aside, if this current universe is simply a bubble, in a mass of other bubbles it means that a) there is not just one universe; our universe is one of many universes) and universes are coming and going out of existence. 

Time. Time is maybe a construct. Maybe everything is happening at the same moment so there is no "before". Maybe there was no such thing as time before the universe was created, so to speak of a "before" is a logical fallacy.

I'm sure there are other possibilities as well. 

« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 07:28:46 PM by partgypsy »

Indexer

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2019, 07:08:11 AM »
"We exist therefore something outside of this world made us"

Why does it have to be something outside of this world?  That's odd.

Evolution made us. It wasn't on purpose, it was just millions(billions, trillions?) of random mutations over hundreds of thousands of years(billions of years if we go back to single cells) and the mutations best suited for our environment were the most likely to carry on.

We can see evolution within our lifetimes now. Bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics and passing those resistances on to their offspring is evolution.

What created the first life? Likely also trillions+ random events happening over and over until the right set of actions occurred.



If we did follow the logic that we were created by something outside of this world, the idea I've heard that made the most logical sense was that we are part of a massive computer simulation.

Not like the matrix, robots don't need us for warmth... The idea is that once a sentient species reaches a certain level of technological advancement, hundreds or thousands of years more advanced that us, after they have colonized their own solar system, and begin to venture further, they will have to confront an important question. "Are we the most advanced in our galaxy?  If not, will the more advanced species help us or destroy us?" If you aren't the most advanced and the more advanced are likely to destroy you then you would prefer to keep your territory small. If you are the most advanced or other species are likely to be peaceful then you can expand as quickly as you want. How do you answer this question when you know nothing about hypothetical species outside your solar system?  You run simulations of the entire galaxy or even the universe. The only assumptions would be the laws of physics and a set amount of matter/energy. Then let the simulations run and measure how long it takes life to form, life to reach intelligence, intelligent life to reach space, and whether those intelligent beings are peaceful or destructive towards others. Such technology would also help answer many other questions.

We might create this technology in the future, but that begs the question... did someone else already create it and we are the intelligent lifeforms being measured?  The 'on' button for that simulation would look a lot like the big bang.

I don't believe that, but it seemed really interesting while we are on the topic of belief systems where we were created by someone outside of our world. The creator doesn't have to be a god that looks like us, gives us a rules, and punishes or rewards us. It could be a massive computer measuring outcomes and we are tiny specs on one of hundreds of billions of planets in one galaxy out of hundreds of billions of galaxies.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2019, 07:19:42 AM »
If we're getting into quantum mechanics . . . the act observing something changes it from what it was into something different.  Therefore it follows that it's impossible to know anything since ultimately our only source of knowledge is observation.

Now we can all go about our business.

Building on the best way to approach the universe, all math is a lie.

One third is 0.3 repeating

1/3 = 0.33333333333....
3 * 1/3 = 3 * 0.33333333333....

Therefore:
1 = 0.9999999999.....
1 != 1

Chaos ensues.

But notice, 1/3 when using hexadecimal over decimal you get a non-repeating number (0.55555555555555554598) so perhaps it the language this is the limiting factor.

GuitarStv

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2019, 07:54:03 AM »
If we're getting into quantum mechanics . . . the act observing something changes it from what it was into something different.  Therefore it follows that it's impossible to know anything since ultimately our only source of knowledge is observation.

Now we can all go about our business.

Building on the best way to approach the universe, all math is a lie.

One third is 0.3 repeating

1/3 = 0.33333333333....
3 * 1/3 = 3 * 0.33333333333....

Therefore:
1 = 0.9999999999.....
1 != 1

Chaos ensues.

But notice, 1/3 when using hexadecimal over decimal you get a non-repeating number (0.55555555555555554598) so perhaps it the language this is the limiting factor.

Yep.  The problem actually lies with our representation of numbers.  It is a fundamentally flawed approach to try to convert fractions to decimal values for repeating values.  But I prefer to think of it as being an example of how all math is a lie.  :P

MasterStache

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2019, 08:27:49 AM »
"We exist therefore something outside of this world made us"

Why does it have to be something outside of this world?  That's odd.

Evolution made us. It wasn't on purpose, it was just millions(billions, trillions?) of random mutations over hundreds of thousands of years(billions of years if we go back to single cells) and the mutations best suited for our environment were the most likely to carry on.

We can see evolution within our lifetimes now. Bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics and passing those resistances on to their offspring is evolution.

What created the first life? Likely also trillions+ random events happening over and over until the right set of actions occurred.



If we did follow the logic that we were created by something outside of this world, the idea I've heard that made the most logical sense was that we are part of a massive computer simulation.

Not like the matrix, robots don't need us for warmth... The idea is that once a sentient species reaches a certain level of technological advancement, hundreds or thousands of years more advanced that us, after they have colonized their own solar system, and begin to venture further, they will have to confront an important question. "Are we the most advanced in our galaxy?  If not, will the more advanced species help us or destroy us?" If you aren't the most advanced and the more advanced are likely to destroy you then you would prefer to keep your territory small. If you are the most advanced or other species are likely to be peaceful then you can expand as quickly as you want. How do you answer this question when you know nothing about hypothetical species outside your solar system?  You run simulations of the entire galaxy or even the universe. The only assumptions would be the laws of physics and a set amount of matter/energy. Then let the simulations run and measure how long it takes life to form, life to reach intelligence, intelligent life to reach space, and whether those intelligent beings are peaceful or destructive towards others. Such technology would also help answer many other questions.

We might create this technology in the future, but that begs the question... did someone else already create it and we are the intelligent lifeforms being measured?  The 'on' button for that simulation would look a lot like the big bang.

I don't believe that, but it seemed really interesting while we are on the topic of belief systems where we were created by someone outside of our world. The creator doesn't have to be a god that looks like us, gives us a rules, and punishes or rewards us. It could be a massive computer measuring outcomes and we are tiny specs on one of hundreds of billions of planets in one galaxy out of hundreds of billions of galaxies.

I really enjoy learning about the different theories/hypothesis. The multiverse is a very interesting one as is what you describe about being part of a simulation. It just would seem so boring to find out we were in fact created. Gosh what a downer that would be. It really has no basis in reality so it doesn't worry me.   

jim555

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2019, 08:46:37 AM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

Kris

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2019, 08:52:42 AM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

This is just so... uninformed.

Seriously, Jim.

MrDelane

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2019, 09:09:12 AM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze? Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

Abiogenesis is a separate issue which still needs a lot of study, but evolution by means of natural selection is considered to be an accepted fact (no different than the germ theory, theory of gravity, etc).

Whether or not it is hard for an individual to believe has zero bearing on the mountains of evidence and the conclusions they lead to.

Kris

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2019, 09:12:22 AM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze? Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

Abiogenesis is a separate issue which still needs a lot of study, but evolution by means of natural selection is considered to be an accepted fact (no different than the germ theory, theory of gravity, etc).

Whether or not it is hard for an individual to believe has zero bearing on the mountains of evidence and the conclusions they lead to.

+1.

FIREstache

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2019, 12:50:18 PM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

That's true, but many people will rationalize something else based on pseudo-science that can never be proved.

MasterStache

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2019, 03:23:18 PM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

This is a great example of just how limited our understanding truly is. Iím sure 100 years ago landing on the moon seemed impossible. Thankfully science marches on.

GuitarStv

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2019, 03:38:09 PM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

This is a great example of just how limited our understanding truly is. Iím sure 100 years ago landing on the moon seemed impossible. Thankfully science marches on.

The Miller-Urey experiment in the '50s showed exactly how complex life can spontaneously generate from primordial ooze.  It's mostly just chemistry.  You create the right conditions, and the building blocks of life will reliably appear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

MasterStache

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2019, 05:07:57 PM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

This is a great example of just how limited our understanding truly is. Iím sure 100 years ago landing on the moon seemed impossible. Thankfully science marches on.

The Miller-Urey experiment in the '50s showed exactly how complex life can spontaneously generate from primordial ooze.  It's mostly just chemistry.  You create the right conditions, and the building blocks of life will reliably appear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

Yep. Follow up experiments showing the creation of RNA are just as awesome.

Poundwise

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2019, 09:34:33 PM »
How does the complexity of life come from a primordial ooze?  Impossible.  I don't care how much time passes, its never going to happen.

@jim555 , it's really an interesting question and I don't blame you for being incredulous.

I'm an active Christian with a degree in evolutionary biology. I don't use the bio degree much, but I have found that the more I learn about Christianity, biology, and statistics, the more I am able to reconcile a divine creation with science.

I'll try to explain how I understand things. I'm not a good chemist, so my understanding is simplistic. But maybe it will help you or others reading this.
Let's start with some simple things that we can believe in... oil droplets in water.  Round shapes that are just a consequence of oil being "hydrophobic"... oil and water don't mix.

Oils and fats are examples of molecules called lipids. Lipids are hydrophobic; they will avoid water. If you stick a phosphate on a lipid, you get what's called a  phospholipid. Mix phospholipids in an aqueous solution and they will self-assemble into lipid bilayers... which are kind of like hollow balls. So provided that you have a source of phospholipids (see link below for theories about how concentrations of those could be formed), you will end up with a bunch of tiny little hollow balls (vesicles)... essentially empty cell membranes. 

Once you have these little empty cells, they are very special because they have an inside, that can be a mini-environment that contains different things (like nucleic acids). They may even replicate themselves... one theory is that the first life was a simple lipid vesicle which could only make more vesicles. Once you have something that can vary and that can replicate itself, though, then you have something that natural selection can act on... and natural selection is a powerful engine of change. 

It's much better described here. http://exploringorigins.org/fattyacids.html

But where is room for the hand of God in all of these mechanistic explanations?  Well, in every event large and small, there seems to be room for random events... mutations, weather, etc. as Indexer said.  It's possible that nothing is truly random, and that everything was predestined like a vast Rube Goldberg machine.  That's quite impressive, actually, and perhaps that is God's plan.

But perhaps randomness truly exists at the quantum level. In which case, although events will occur according to a probability distribution, amongst equally probable events, why does one occur and not the other? Divine intervention?

I disagree with OP's contention that the fact of existence at all proves that the existence of a divine hand.  Strangely, the concept of finitude seems to be more difficult than infinitude.  Why must everything go on and on in time and space? Why a "before" before the beginning and an "after" after the end? 

But neither can we disprove the existence of a divine Creator.  Hence we have room for faith. 

At any rate, I don't find the belief in abiogenesis or evolution inconsistent with a belief in God, an acceptance of Christ as Savior, or a life of service to the common good of all humankind.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 08:37:12 AM by Poundwise »

BicycleB

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2019, 02:26:37 PM »
Hey @mastrr, who says I exist?

Dabnasty

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2019, 02:42:26 PM »
Hey @mastrr, who says I exist?

You post therefore you is

unless you're a bot of course

GuitarStv

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Re: We exist therefore something outside of this world made us
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2019, 03:53:42 PM »
Careful about assumptions.  We live on the edge of the Turing capable 'bots era.