Israel vs Hamas

[GuitarStv]

This seems to be an argument that international law is wrong, and anyone determined to be a terrorist is fair target by any country who determines that person is a terrorist.  Tough luck for surrounding civilians.  That's not really something I can agree with.  Does this hold for all countries, or is it a special rule only for Israel's actions?

The US supported Syrian rebels who were working with and shared American weapons with ISIS.  Would it be justified for US generals in embassies around the world to be targeted for air strikes?

International law is a bogus thing generally. All states just ignore it when it's against their interests. For Iran's response to be "correct" under international law, they should have 1) proof the Israelis actually bombed the consulate, and present that somewhere. 2) Respond with proportional force.

Israel didn't take credit for the bombing. Iran hasn't presented proof to the UN. The destruction of the consulate building was done by 1-3 missiles. Iran and allies launched hundreds of missiles in response. This is a disproportional response that's a violation of international law.

You don't believe that Israel did the airstrike?  I mean . . . they told Washington immediately before executing it and admitted to the world that it was them eventually . . .(https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/world/middleeast/iran-israel-attack.html).

I will also note that Iran doesn't seem to agree with Article 1-30 (that's all of them) of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which it is a signatory. Laws you can pick and choose to follow is the same thing as having no laws at alll.

Yep.  Iran isn't great on human rights.  You'll get no argument from me, and if you want to condemn Iran for their actions I'll hop on board too.  But is your argument that Israel should be allowed to be as lawless as Iran?  I thought they were supposed to be the good guys, hence why we keep giving them weapons.

Finally, with your logic, you would be OK with Israel arming some Iranian terrorist groups and doing terrorist attacks in Iran? Maybe Israel gives the Syrian opposition a bomb to blow up the consulate? Then it's fine because that's what Iran does with Hezbollah? I guess I don't see a difference.[/quote

I didn't say that Iranian support of Hezbollah is fine.  It's not.  But does it allow Israel to make airstrikes against Iranian embassies in Syria (civilian casualties be damned)?  Can't support that.

Like when Israel armed and supported the terrorist group MEK as part of their operation to assassinate Iranian nuclear scientists, or when Israel recruited members of terrorist organization Jundallah to carry out false flag operations against Iran . . . I wouldn't support bombing the Israelis in their embassy in another country either.

I don't think Iran or Syria are the greatest countries in the world.  There's plenty to dislike in both countries, and there is pretty awful treatment of people.  If you carefully read what was written I don't actually want them to have more power.  I'd prefer a balance of power that prevents anyone from deciding to start bombing this shit out of large numbers of civilians.

Israel is regularly given some of the most powerful and modern weapons on Earth by the United States.  These weapons come with what appears to be zero influence as to how Israel uses them.  That's a concern, as Israel has proven in their Gaza conflict that they don't care at all about non-Israeli civilians.

You can't have it both ways: having a "balance" means either Israel gets weaker, and/or Iran/Syria and other despots in the area get stronger. That's why I said you favor a relative increase in the strength of these regimes compared to Israel.

I am against the strengthening, relative or otherwise, of regimes who savagely repress their own populations.

It's a tricky question, and I'm not sure there's really a perfect 'right' answer.  Lean too hard one way and repressive dictators who treat their own people pretty shitty win.  Lean too hard the other, and a religious state with no care for the life of others people and a gigantic store of weapons the west gave them win.

The Morning April 18, 2024
https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/NN_sample.html
“why are Arab leaders willing to be part of a coalition with Israel? As surprising as it may sound, many see Iran as a bigger problem than Israel, even if they don’t say so publicly. The network of extremist groups that Iran funds and arms destabilizes the region. The Houthis have attacked Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. in recent years, for instance. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which Egypt’s government has long loathed.
When Arab leaders worry about existential threats to their governments, Israel rarely makes the list. Iran and its network of outside groups do. “Many Arab leaders share the view that Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be destroyed,”

Yep, Hamas sucks.  Nobody's arguing for their side in this thread though.

[Michael in ABQ]

Looks like Israel may have begun their retaliatory strikes on Iran. Explosion reported at a meeting of IRGC in Baghdad. Explosions reported in Iranian cities that house nuclear facilities. Unknown aircraft spotted over Iraq and Syria.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender

[MustacheAndaHalf]

News channels have started reacting but lack footage.  I switched to Bloomberg TV, which shows German and UK stocks falling.  Japan's yen is considered very weak, making its 0.5% gain against the U.S. dollar significant (suggesting the U.S. might get involved).  The price of oil has begun climbing, likely on the possibility Iran might close the Strait of Hormuz.

[GuitarStv]

Seems like the largely ineffective Iranian missile attack was countered by a largely ineffective Israeli drone strike and now the countries are saying that the matter is concluded?  That's about as good an outcome as could be hoped for.

[partgypsy]

Seems like the largely ineffective Iranian missile attack was countered by a largely ineffective Israeli drone strike and now the countries are saying that the matter is concluded?  That's about as good an outcome as could be hoped for.

I truly hope that's all that is

[reeshau]

I don't think the Israeli strike was ineffective.  Rather, it was symbolic.  They hit an airbase defended with the S-300, their best anti-aircraft system.  The base is in the same city as a significant facility for Iran's nuclear program.

Without direct threats, the message is "we can hit anything; even this."

[Michael in ABQ]

And now Israel appears to have struck some targets in Iraq - specifically bases for the Iranian-backed PMF militia.

[ChpBstrd]

And now Israel appears to have struck some targets in Iraq - specifically bases for the Iranian-backed PMF militia.

Biden knows Netanyahu has no incentive to stop the aggression. Bibi is going to do all he can to drag the US into a middle east war because he knows that would split the Democratic base. Biden will sign the Israeli aid agreement but I'm sure he's furious at Netanyahu for not just taking the win when the US spent a billion dollars shooting down missiles.

[GuitarStv]

The US is planning to wrist slap sanction the Netzah Yehuda battalion of the IDF for atrocities committed in the West Bank.  The battalion is made up of ultra hard liner religious extremist Jewish settlers and has a history of unprovoked murder, torture of prisoners, and assault against civilians in the West Bank.  None of these actions have been seriously prosecuted (if prosecuted at all) by Israeli courts or the Israeli justice system.  (Yesh Din (an Israeli human rights group) says between 2005 and 2022, 93 per cent of investigations against settlers who attacked Palestinians were closed without charges, so that's in line with regular Israeli policy.)

Under the Leahy laws of the '90s U.S. foreign aid and Defense Department training programs are prohibited from going to foreign security, military and police units credibly alleged to have committed human rights violations.  The sanction will prevent the battalion and it's members from from receiving US aid or military training.  It's unclear to me how the US will be able to help some of the IDF while denying aid to other parts, but seems like a small step in the right direction.

These sanctions come on the back of more than seven hundred attacks by illegal Israeli settlers on Palestinian civilians in the West Bank in the past six months - more than half of which saw the Israeli military involved.  At least seven Palestinian communities have been completely destroyed by Israelis in this time.  Netanyahu has indicated his outrage that anyone is holding Israelis responsible for their actions and has vowed that the Israeli government will "act by all means against these moves."

  - https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/west-back-violence-1.7180868