Author Topic: Universal Health Care Practicalities  (Read 36756 times)

shelivesthedream

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #250 on: February 14, 2019, 10:58:06 AM »
Things I would like to know and am not sure where to find out reliably:

How much does the average American pay from their own wages for healthcare every year and how much extra would the average American pay in taxes every year under universal healthcare?

What are the current American averages for key waiting times metrics as opposed to, say, the NHS four hour A&E target?

Never mind worrying about paying for other people's healthcare. I would be surprised if the average American wouldn't end up paying less for their own healthcare under a proper system.

And, is there any country in the world which repealed universal healthcare after it was  introduced? Basically, is there any country that gave it a go and then reckoned the old private system was better?

Abe

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #251 on: February 14, 2019, 01:07:43 PM »
Regarding drug prices: most countries will negotiate prices with drug companies using their regulatory powers. For example, in the UK, the government has panels that evaluate the evidence of benefit of the drug, the economic analysis a company provides to support a given price, and then negotiates a price based on that analysis and a separate governmental analysis. This doesn’t result in $50,000 drugs costing $1,000 but does generally reduce the price by 25-50% depending on the drug’s utility. The benefit to the company is they will then be the preferred (or only) provider for a given drug for a period of several years (depending on what is negotiated, and if any new clearly more effective competitor drugs are developed). The risk is being shut out of the NHS market, but some drugs can be purchased privately if approved for prescribed use (a separate process) and patients really want it. That is fairly rare, however.

Regarding subsidizing or drugs by US consumers: this is a simplistic bumper-sticker summary of a complex system. Yes, companies will have more profits if one market pays much more than others. But three factors complicate this picture:
1. Manufacturing costs are much lower than drug development. Thus companies could likely maintain a profit without further drug development just on this basis alone, especially with the monopoly afforded to them after initial approval. Many generic drug manufacturers do this succesfully.
2. Most of the high-risk drug development is done by smaller companies that are then bought out if their preclinical data is promising. Most of this is high-risk, high-reward work is funded by venture capitalists, not your insurance company. The big company then has to buy the company at a valuation based on their estimates of future sales, but the idea that no research would be done without a huge payday for Merck, etc is simplistic.
2. For future drug development, much of the preclinical work is paid for by government grants. A significant fraction are from the US, but European countries contribute substantially also. It is rare for a company to develop a new drug without some level of government support. Yes, they then have to pay for the very expensive clinical trials, but the government will mitigate costs of running large trials by accelerating approval if there is a clear clinical benefit. If the benefit of a drug is not much more than a pre-existing competitor, it will cost more to show a statistical benefit. That is just a price of doing business: if your product isn’t that great, you have to do more work to convince people to buy it. Even then, don’t expect many buyers if you charge a lot.

Thus, Americans only “subsidize” drug development inasmuch as we buy marginally better drugs at extraordinary prices due to effective marketing campaigns. Other than a handful of drugs that are significant breakthroughs, the majority of new ones are basically competitors to existing ones, or reformulations designed to get around loss of monopoly due to expiring patents. There is no clear moral or economic reason why we should pay excess costs for these marginal products when cheaper alternatives are available.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 01:37:11 PM by Abe »

LennStar

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #252 on: February 14, 2019, 02:19:46 PM »
I'd be all for that if doctors were also allowed to tell those individuals to fuck off and die unless they paid in full up front before getting sewn up in the ER.
Too bad that is the opposite of what being a doctor is means. The old shithole Hippokrates...

Kris

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #253 on: February 14, 2019, 02:35:57 PM »
I'd be all for that if doctors were also allowed to tell those individuals to fuck off and die unless they paid in full up front before getting sewn up in the ER.
Too bad that is the opposite of what being a doctor is means. The old shithole Hippokrates...

But hospital administrators didn't take the oath, so...

carolina822

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #254 on: February 14, 2019, 02:38:13 PM »
I'd be all for that if doctors were also allowed to tell those individuals to fuck off and die unless they paid in full up front before getting sewn up in the ER.
Too bad that is the opposite of what being a doctor is means. The old shithole Hippokrates...

But hospital administrators didn't take the oath, so...

Ahh, the old good cop-bad cop routine!

Metalcat

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #255 on: February 14, 2019, 04:02:48 PM »
Things I would like to know and am not sure where to find out reliably:

How much does the average American pay from their own wages for healthcare every year and how much extra would the average American pay in taxes every year under universal healthcare?

What are the current American averages for key waiting times metrics as opposed to, say, the NHS four hour A&E target?

Never mind worrying about paying for other people's healthcare. I would be surprised if the average American wouldn't end up paying less for their own healthcare under a proper system.

And, is there any country in the world which repealed universal healthcare after it was  introduced? Basically, is there any country that gave it a go and then reckoned the old private system was better?

Well...considering that the US is literally the *only* highly developed country without universal healthcare...I think that answers a lot of your questions.

Also, there is boat loads of data out there showing that you guys spend WAY MORE per person on healthcare than Canadians do.

Here's a Harvard Public Health Review on universal healthcare

http://harvardpublichealthreview.org/universal-health-care-the-affordable-dream/

An article about per capita healthcare spending and how you guys spend the most and die the youngest.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4823dd781fba

anisotropy

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #256 on: February 14, 2019, 04:11:25 PM »
@Abe That was a really good and concise summary while also capturing much of the nuances of the topic.

Are there reasons other than marketing to why we are paying excess costs for these marginal products when cheaper alternatives are available? Are the physicians to blame here?

I am under the assumption that if the US hops on the national drug plan wagon the companies would either open new lines of business or jack up prices (in negotiation) elsewhere to preserve both the top and bottom line. Do you think this thinking is valid or is it irrelevant and if it does happen the govt would just eat the cost regardless?

Also, in the national drug plan scenario, would the companies ask for more grants to make the clinical trials more cost-viable or would they change the way they do things to better adapt to the new paradigm? Thanks.

pecunia

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #257 on: February 14, 2019, 06:42:47 PM »
"I am under the assumption that if the US hops on the national drug plan wagon the companies would either open new lines of business or jack up prices (in negotiation) elsewhere to preserve both the top and bottom line. Do you think this thinking is valid or is it irrelevant and if it does happen the govt would just eat the cost regardless?"

If the US bids, there should be at least one drug company that is greedy enough to want the business and undercut the others.  If some of them go under,.......so what.  Look at all the other companies that have gone under or are going under.  Why should they be different than Enron, Lehman brothers, Texaco, Chrysler, etc.  If we truly have a free market, there will be losers.

anisotropy

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #258 on: February 14, 2019, 07:35:23 PM »
If we truly have a free market, there will be losers.

lol wut? true free market in a "single payer" national healthcare system? *does not compute*

are you also a believer that "true free market" is possible under mmt? not intending to offend, just had way too much sugar and I am in a playful mood.

Abe

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #259 on: February 14, 2019, 07:56:47 PM »
@Abe That was a really good and concise summary while also capturing much of the nuances of the topic.

Are there reasons other than marketing to why we are paying excess costs for these marginal products when cheaper alternatives are available? Are the physicians to blame here?

I am under the assumption that if the US hops on the national drug plan wagon the companies would either open new lines of business or jack up prices (in negotiation) elsewhere to preserve both the top and bottom line. Do you think this thinking is valid or is it irrelevant and if it does happen the govt would just eat the cost regardless?

Also, in the national drug plan scenario, would the companies ask for more grants to make the clinical trials more cost-viable or would they change the way they do things to better adapt to the new paradigm? Thanks.

Thanks for the compliment. Regarding your first question:

I would say that when direct-to-patient advertising ramped up after a 1997 FDA ruling change, there was a fair amount of blame due to physicians. The typical scenario is company B created a competitor drug in the same class as company A's blockbuster drug. They sent out marketing reps to convince physicians why drug B is better than A (or at least different enough to use over A). Occasionally prices are mentioned, but the main reasons touted were lower side effects or more efficacy. they were required to have data to back up these claims, so it became a question of how much marginal benefit there was versus cost. In my training, for most drug classes this benefit was really minimal for the majority of scenarios. This creates a quandary for the drug companies, because it was really expensive to develop whole new classes of drugs. Solution 1: spend that money on advertising to patients. Solution 2: spend that money on "conferences" for physicians. The latter was eventually called out by the public, the FDA and other physicians. The former has not been addressed to any real extent.

In the last decade, insurance companies caught onto the drug companies' schemes and this resulted in "drug benefit managers" like ExpressScripts. These companies ostensibly negotiate with drug companies on behalf of a group of insurance companies to get one of two deals. Either the name brand, expensive drug is negotiated to be the preferred drug that insurance will cover if the drug company gives it at a discount, or one of several generic equivalents is negotiated for a substantially lower price. This would theoretically be good, except what happens is that who gets on the "preferred" list can change every few months, creating havoc for physicians and patients. The NY Times recently reported on this regarding insulin. Also, there is absolutely no transparency regarding what price the insurance company is paying, how much of the total cost is being covered by the patient, or how that deal was negotiated. Sometimes a drug company will throw in a steep discount for an older drug in one category if the insurance will make their new, super expensive drug preferred in another, more lucrative class. All kinds of fancy ways to negotiate, and hard to determine how much (if any) corruption is involved since these deals are almost always 'trade secrets' and confidential.

Long story short: there's plenty of blame to go around. Physicians for the most part have caught on to the bad optics of prescribing unnecessary brand-name drugs, so that has been fixed to a large extent. Also, insurance companies caught on to the drug companies' strategy. Now, use of marginally better drugs at higher costs is more driven by the game taking place between drug companies and insurance companies, rather than physicians' perceptions of their relative worth.

Regarding your second question:
In general, the cost of treatment for most chronic diseases is markedly cheaper than they were 20 years ago. This is mostly because the 1990s had a spurt of new cardiovascular, very effective drugs that are now all generic with multiple competitors. This includes statins for cholesterol, drugs for hypertension, and drugs for heart failure. All three conditions can be treated for fairly cheap ($5-15/month per condition). In addition, the standard, effective chemotherapy drugs used for most cancers were all developed in the 1970s-1980s and are far cheaper than newer, incrementally better chemotherapy agents. For example, colorectal cancer hasn't really had a significant chemotherapy breakthrough since 2004, using a drug developed in the 1980s. I'm citing these examples to point out that new lines of business are hard to develop.

Companies have responded by jacking up costs for other drugs that can have complicated formulations (since those are patent-worthy even if the underlying drug molecule is not new - best example are insulin variants, some of which are extremely cheap and others extremely expensive for no medical reason). This is where a lot of "drug discovery" is now going: trying to find more effective and targeted ways to deliver older drugs that are off-patent and cheap. If you can do this, then the cost of manufacturing is very low, but you get a brand new monopoly on a new medicine. Unfortunately, again, the marginal benefit is quite low.

If the US were to negotiate like other countries did, I think two things would happen:

Initially, pharmaceutical companies would drop out of less lucrative classes of drugs. This has happened with antibiotics since they are not very profitable. No significant breakthrough antibiotic has been developed since 2000, and most antibiotics we use today were developed in the 1970s! They may cut back on drug discovery in general since it is expensive and prone to failure (only 10% of drugs make it all the way to clinical use!). But, as is happening with antibiotics now, and with chemotherapy drugs in the past, governments will likely provide funding to promote drug discovery.

I doubt companies would drop out of an entire country-wide market because the manufacturing costs for current drugs are so low that they would still make a profit just selling them like any other normal business.  I don't think European countries would budge on their price controls because they know the drug companies would still make a profit. The drug companies don't want to entirely drop drug discovery, because if development is funded entirely by governments they will have a weaker claim to the profits from its sale, and eventually there will be no reason for drug companies to exist other than manufacturing. Then, they will be destroyed by offshoring, just like every other non-technical manufacturing sector.

It is just really really hard to make major breakthroughs in medicines. Many of the low-hanging fruits have been picked. Now it is a hard, 20-year slog to get a historically significant drug class developed. Private companies are not driven by 20-year action plans, they are driven by quarterly and annual profits. The long-term result is a hybrid system that has informally existed for decades: some government or government-funded entity lays the groundwork, a company buys the patent for clinical development & marketing, and the profit is shared. The big question will be how regulated are the companies and how much profit they will be allowed to have.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 08:09:26 PM by Abe »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #260 on: February 15, 2019, 12:06:17 AM »
Things I would like to know and am not sure where to find out reliably:

How much does the average American pay from their own wages for healthcare every year and how much extra would the average American pay in taxes every year under universal healthcare?

What are the current American averages for key waiting times metrics as opposed to, say, the NHS four hour A&E target?

Never mind worrying about paying for other people's healthcare. I would be surprised if the average American wouldn't end up paying less for their own healthcare under a proper system.

And, is there any country in the world which repealed universal healthcare after it was  introduced? Basically, is there any country that gave it a go and then reckoned the old private system was better?

Well...considering that the US is literally the *only* highly developed country without universal healthcare...I think that answers a lot of your questions.

Also, there is boat loads of data out there showing that you guys spend WAY MORE per person on healthcare than Canadians do.

Here's a Harvard Public Health Review on universal healthcare

http://harvardpublichealthreview.org/universal-health-care-the-affordable-dream/

An article about per capita healthcare spending and how you guys spend the most and die the youngest.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4823dd781fba

The Brits spend much more than the Canadians? Really?

No, what I'd like to know is not total per capita spending but how much each American would pay personally - either via insurance and copays or via taxes. What would be the difference to their bottom line?

marty998

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #261 on: February 15, 2019, 12:31:16 AM »
If we truly have a free market, there will be losers.

lol wut? true free market in a "single payer" national healthcare system? *does not compute*

are you also a believer that "true free market" is possible under mmt? not intending to offend, just had way too much sugar and I am in a playful mood.

@pecunia I nearly quoted you out of context here too, because I hadn't read all of your original post.

If I may, for a moment, actually take your quote out of context, what I was going to say was that in a true free-market health care system, people will die for lack of being able to pay.

That is is an incredibly heartless and inhumane society to be a part of.

kei te pai

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #262 on: February 15, 2019, 01:32:07 AM »
It is not just the impovished who suffer if access to health measures such as immunisation and infection control is limited by income.
Like a dose of Hepatitis with your meal sir? Or how about that  toddler with early whooping cough who came to look at your 2 month old baby in the playground?

anisotropy

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #263 on: February 15, 2019, 02:00:46 AM »
Interesting, thanks for the detailed reply. I think I have a new favorite forum member.

The big question will be how regulated are the companies and how much profit they will be allowed to have.

This is precisely what I am concerned about, personally I am quite leery of this sort of scenario. Has this sort of control been established somewhere in the world without severe adverse effect on innovation?

Metalcat

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #264 on: February 15, 2019, 03:41:37 AM »
Things I would like to know and am not sure where to find out reliably:

How much does the average American pay from their own wages for healthcare every year and how much extra would the average American pay in taxes every year under universal healthcare?

What are the current American averages for key waiting times metrics as opposed to, say, the NHS four hour A&E target?

Never mind worrying about paying for other people's healthcare. I would be surprised if the average American wouldn't end up paying less for their own healthcare under a proper system.

And, is there any country in the world which repealed universal healthcare after it was  introduced? Basically, is there any country that gave it a go and then reckoned the old private system was better?

Well...considering that the US is literally the *only* highly developed country without universal healthcare...I think that answers a lot of your questions.

Also, there is boat loads of data out there showing that you guys spend WAY MORE per person on healthcare than Canadians do.

Here's a Harvard Public Health Review on universal healthcare

http://harvardpublichealthreview.org/universal-health-care-the-affordable-dream/

An article about per capita healthcare spending and how you guys spend the most and die the youngest.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4823dd781fba

The Brits spend much more than the Canadians? Really?

No, what I'd like to know is not total per capita spending but how much each American would pay personally - either via insurance and copays or via taxes. What would be the difference to their bottom line?

You want an analysis of what individuals would pay???
Literally no one can answer that, but if the per capita spending drops, the answer will be: on average, everyone will pay less.

Some people will pay more in taxes compared to insurance and co-pays, some people much much much less.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #265 on: February 15, 2019, 04:45:36 AM »
I said I had no idea how to find the numbers! And obviously not every individual, but surely there must be some ballpark figures one could use for an educated guess for the average person. Like, what the average person spends each year and what the average spend on Medicaid (the one that's not for old people is) per capita times population divided by taxpayers? I don't think it's so unreasonable to wonder this.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #266 on: February 15, 2019, 07:06:16 AM »

The Brits spend much more than the Canadians? Really?

No, what I'd like to know is not total per capita spending but how much each American would pay personally - either via insurance and copays or via taxes. What would be the difference to their bottom line?

Wikipedia has  per capita costs (US$) from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development; if you click on the year you can sort by costs.  The UK (4192) spent slightly less than Canada (4793) in 2016, but we both spent much less than the US (9892).

Since it is total cost per capita it would include what was spent both by public plans and private plans and then uninsured costs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita


This also looks at breakdown between public and private spending  (search term was  per capita insurance health premiums by country)

https://www.finweb.com/insurance/average-health-insurance-cost-by-country.html

pecunia

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #267 on: February 15, 2019, 07:39:32 AM »
Aside:  As I look at these posts I note that many are from countries that already have universal health care and are relatively satisfied with it.  It resembles the feeling of a car accident with many spectators.  The car accident, in this case, is the US health care system.  The spectators look on and proclaim, "I'm sure glad that isn't me."

TrMama

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #268 on: February 15, 2019, 11:04:05 AM »
Things I would like to know and am not sure where to find out reliably:

How much does the average American pay from their own wages for healthcare every year and how much extra would the average American pay in taxes every year under universal healthcare?

What are the current American averages for key waiting times metrics as opposed to, say, the NHS four hour A&E target?

Never mind worrying about paying for other people's healthcare. I would be surprised if the average American wouldn't end up paying less for their own healthcare under a proper system.

And, is there any country in the world which repealed universal healthcare after it was  introduced? Basically, is there any country that gave it a go and then reckoned the old private system was better?

Well...considering that the US is literally the *only* highly developed country without universal healthcare...I think that answers a lot of your questions.

Also, there is boat loads of data out there showing that you guys spend WAY MORE per person on healthcare than Canadians do.

Here's a Harvard Public Health Review on universal healthcare

http://harvardpublichealthreview.org/universal-health-care-the-affordable-dream/

An article about per capita healthcare spending and how you guys spend the most and die the youngest.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4823dd781fba

The Brits spend much more than the Canadians? Really?

No, what I'd like to know is not total per capita spending but how much each American would pay personally - either via insurance and copays or via taxes. What would be the difference to their bottom line?

You want an analysis of what individuals would pay???
Literally no one can answer that, but if the per capita spending drops, the answer will be: on average, everyone will pay less.

Some people will pay more in taxes compared to insurance and co-pays, some people much much much less.

Well, we could speculate. For arguments sake I'll use the numbers in table 7.1.1 in this article posted above, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.179bd5a88980 .

Since the US currently spends the most per capita of any country at $8508 and the next highest spending country is Norway at $5669, then the US could reasonably expect to save the difference. That's $2839 per person, per year. Not exactly chump change.

gaja

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #269 on: February 15, 2019, 05:08:54 PM »
Things I would like to know and am not sure where to find out reliably:

How much does the average American pay from their own wages for healthcare every year and how much extra would the average American pay in taxes every year under universal healthcare?

What are the current American averages for key waiting times metrics as opposed to, say, the NHS four hour A&E target?

Never mind worrying about paying for other people's healthcare. I would be surprised if the average American wouldn't end up paying less for their own healthcare under a proper system.

And, is there any country in the world which repealed universal healthcare after it was  introduced? Basically, is there any country that gave it a go and then reckoned the old private system was better?

Well...considering that the US is literally the *only* highly developed country without universal healthcare...I think that answers a lot of your questions.

Also, there is boat loads of data out there showing that you guys spend WAY MORE per person on healthcare than Canadians do.

Here's a Harvard Public Health Review on universal healthcare

http://harvardpublichealthreview.org/universal-health-care-the-affordable-dream/

An article about per capita healthcare spending and how you guys spend the most and die the youngest.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4823dd781fba

The Brits spend much more than the Canadians? Really?

No, what I'd like to know is not total per capita spending but how much each American would pay personally - either via insurance and copays or via taxes. What would be the difference to their bottom line?

You want an analysis of what individuals would pay???
Literally no one can answer that, but if the per capita spending drops, the answer will be: on average, everyone will pay less.

Some people will pay more in taxes compared to insurance and co-pays, some people much much much less.

Well, we could speculate. For arguments sake I'll use the numbers in table 7.1.1 in this article posted above, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.179bd5a88980 .

Since the US currently spends the most per capita of any country at $8508 and the next highest spending country is Norway at $5669, then the US could reasonably expect to save the difference. That's $2839 per person, per year. Not exactly chump change.

The main reason for our high spending in Norway, is that everyone earns a decent wage. So unless you plan on doubling the wages of your cleaning staff (minimum wage ~$20), you should save more.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #270 on: February 16, 2019, 03:04:57 AM »
So your average American would personally be $2839 better off under a proper system? I just don't see why that's such a hard sell.

Kris

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #271 on: February 16, 2019, 07:09:39 AM »
So your average American would personally be $2839 better off under a proper system? I just don't see why that's such a hard sell.

Decades of brainwashing.

And an extremely powerful for-profit system that spends millions of dollars lobbying every single year.

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=F09
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 07:18:00 AM by Kris »

Metalcat

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #272 on: February 16, 2019, 07:45:09 AM »
So your average American would personally be $2839 better off under a proper system? I just don't see why that's such a hard sell.

It's hard to say that there would be a net gain for "average" Americans. Right now, some people are out of pocket such enormous amounts, it's hard to say what the effect would be for a typical American, even if that's what the average is.

But yes, the average out of pocket would be less, simply because insurance companies make absolutely insane profits, so if the per capita spending is more, and the insurance companies are hugely profiting, then by definition, the difference has to come out of the pockets of the American public.

A public system isn't just cheaper in terms of administrative costs, which are astronomical, but also completely lacks the massive profit component as well.

So yeah, it's rather confusing why there's such resistance to it. There seems to be some kind of notion of freedom of choice, but from what I gather, your system actually drastically limits your actual real life options in very critical ways through limiting which doctors you can see, career options, retirement options, etc.

Why is it such a hard sell???
As PP said, decades of intense and strategic PR on behalf of a goddamn behemoth economic force.

The rest of the developed world is just lucky that we all cut the balls off that bull before it grew strong enough to start raging.

pecunia

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #273 on: February 16, 2019, 08:09:45 AM »


Why is it such a hard sell???
As PP said, decades of intense and strategic PR on behalf of a goddamn behemoth economic force.

The rest of the developed world is just lucky that we all cut the balls off that bull before it grew strong enough to start raging.

There is a lot of smoke being blown out there by the mainstream press.  The issue is obscured.  These enormous economic forces that have purchased many American politicians also control the mainstream press.  They control the press by being the advertisers or by direct ownership.

A little fear can go a long way to help maintain the status quo.  We Americans do not travel like the folks of other countries.  Many of us, myself included, are ignorant of many aspects of the broader world.  We do not see that there are alternative methods of solving social problems.

Metalcat

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #274 on: February 16, 2019, 08:27:09 AM »
Aside:  As I look at these posts I note that many are from countries that already have universal health care and are relatively satisfied with it.  It resembles the feeling of a car accident with many spectators.  The car accident, in this case, is the US health care system.  The spectators look on and proclaim, "I'm sure glad that isn't me."

It's not so much that, and certainly not any schadenfreude either. It's that early on in this thread a lot of concerns and hypotheticals were postulated and those of us living in these types of systems weighed in as to how these things actually play out in a real life.

We're more like Mustachians weighing in on a conversation among people who are fearful and skeptical about frugality and we're saying "Guys, it's really not all suffering and deprivation, it actually has far reaching positive affects on your health, family life, and happiness."

Who better to contribute responses to concerns and questions than your neighbours who are extremely culturally similar, and have been living with the system through its ups and downs for decades?

We just happen to all think your system is insane. It might be a more interesting debate if various universal healthcare country people weighed in with varying opinions, but we just don't have many citizens who would give up universal healthcare...because they all moved to the US already. Lol. 

carolina822

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #275 on: February 16, 2019, 09:12:29 AM »
So your average American would personally be $2839 better off under a proper system? I just don't see why that's such a hard sell.

Because lots of Americans would rather not get $2839 at all than have someone they consider undeserving get it too. Dumb and mean is a horrible combination.

gentmach

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #276 on: February 16, 2019, 09:24:12 AM »
So your average American would personally be $2839 better off under a proper system? I just don't see why that's such a hard sell.

Why is it such a hard sell???
As PP said, decades of intense and strategic PR on behalf of a goddamn behemoth economic force.

It's a matter of perspective.

"There are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns."

Outsiders looking in: "Take our system, adjust it to fit the data and your needs and your good to go."

Your data might be incomplete and missing nuance, leading to incorrect conclusions. That in turn leads to badly implemented plans. (Undersized programs for a given area being my worry. It cannot be adjusted because all resources have been used and must go through the political process.)

Additionally, Universal Health Care seems to treat symptoms of a problem, but not the underlying attitudes, behaviors, environmental and psychological issues. (A man over eats because of anxiety. He refuses to see a psychiatrist or a therapist because they are for "criminals and the insane.")

So I have the feeling that whatever is currently planned won't be enough and we would need something seemingly on the scale of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez's "Green New Deal". (I'm not saying that her plan was a good one, simply that saying the scale of the plan is what I think we need.)

Only one way to find out though.

Metalcat

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #277 on: February 16, 2019, 09:45:25 AM »
So your average American would personally be $2839 better off under a proper system? I just don't see why that's such a hard sell.

Why is it such a hard sell???
As PP said, decades of intense and strategic PR on behalf of a goddamn behemoth economic force.

It's a matter of perspective.

"There are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns."

Outsiders looking in: "Take our system, adjust it to fit the data and your needs and your good to go."

Your data might be incomplete and missing nuance, leading to incorrect conclusions. That in turn leads to badly implemented plans. (Undersized programs for a given area being my worry. It cannot be adjusted because all resources have been used and must go through the political process.)

Additionally, Universal Health Care seems to treat symptoms of a problem, but not the underlying attitudes, behaviors, environmental and psychological issues. (A man over eats because of anxiety. He refuses to see a psychiatrist or a therapist because they are for "criminals and the insane.")

So I have the feeling that whatever is currently planned won't be enough and we would need something seemingly on the scale of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez's "Green New Deal". (I'm not saying that her plan was a good one, simply that saying the scale of the plan is what I think we need.)

Only one way to find out though.

You're right.
Universal healthcare is not a panacea or a solution to even most healthcare problems, nor is it designed to be. No one in a country like Canada would ever claim that it is.

As for what is currently planned??? Is anything currently planned? I'm not that up on my US politics in that much detail, but as far as I see, universal healthcare in the US is about as "planned" as Brexit was before the referendum.

Right now it just seems to be a growing vague acknowledgement that the current system is suboptimal and that change is complicated and heavily opposed by a lot of political and economic forces. 


ixtap

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #278 on: February 16, 2019, 10:07:32 AM »
I like how people in the most obese country think that universal healthcare leads to poor personal choices that don't treat the underlying issue.

LennStar

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #279 on: February 16, 2019, 11:27:32 AM »
Quote
Additionally, Universal Health Care seems to treat symptoms of a problem, but not the underlying attitudes, behaviors, environmental and psychological issues.
And the current US system does that?

Actually UHC does try to treat the problems. Certainly more than greedy insurances. Simply because everyone is in it and shares the costs.
Just to take one example: In Germany you can get a lot of pre-emptive stuff. You get bonuses for regularily going to the dentist. A free trough-check starting at age 35 every 2 years. My local health insurer has regular "how to eat healthy" courses (okay, those cost a bit of money). Diverse Cancer checks.
And of course you don't pay for visiting the doctor. (We actually had a 10€ per 3 month thing running for a few years. It did not reduce the amount of visits by a meaningful measure. Surprise: Most people don't have fun sitting one hour or longer in a room with sick people!)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #280 on: February 16, 2019, 12:17:53 PM »
Quote
Additionally, Universal Health Care seems to treat symptoms of a problem, but not the underlying attitudes, behaviors, environmental and psychological issues.
And the current US system does that?

Actually UHC does try to treat the problems. Certainly more than greedy insurances. Simply because everyone is in it and shares the costs.
Just to take one example: In Germany you can get a lot of pre-emptive stuff. You get bonuses for regularily going to the dentist. A free trough-check starting at age 35 every 2 years. My local health insurer has regular "how to eat healthy" courses (okay, those cost a bit of money). Diverse Cancer checks.
And of course you don't pay for visiting the doctor. (We actually had a 10€ per 3 month thing running for a few years. It did not reduce the amount of visits by a meaningful measure. Surprise: Most people don't have fun sitting one hour or longer in a room with sick people!)


OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) does a lot of obvious prevention stuff too - free vaccination for children, free flu vaccinations for everyone, free shingles vaccination if you are in a right age group, free mammograms and Pap smears and blood in stool sample testing (colon cancer) with reminders from your local hospital/clinic for the last 3. Free blood work if it is covered by OHIP and prescribed by your doctor, and a lot is - my Vitamin D levels test is covered because I have osteopenia, the x-rays that showed my bones are not quite as dense as they should be were also covered by OHIP.  It is a lot cheaper to find out I need to take Vitamin D supplements and monitor my blood levels than it is for me to fall and break my pelvis.  My local health unit also subsidizes pet rabies vaccines, since rabies is here but pretty well under control. 

Not sure how a universal health plan can cover everything related to "underlying attitudes, behaviors, environmental and psychological issues."  Those are all  aspects of the broader society.  For example, I can get my well water tested for pathogens for free, that is part of public health. Air quality - well that is part of pollution controls and emissions standards.  Smoking?  Clinics run stop smoking programs.

No-one expects a universal health plan to take care of everything any more than they expect private health insurance to cover everything. Some of it is up to us.  I knew someone who died of breast cancer because she refused to go to a doctor, that is not something a health insurance plan, public or private, can deal with.

gentmach

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #281 on: February 16, 2019, 12:31:59 PM »
So your average American would personally be $2839 better off under a proper system? I just don't see why that's such a hard sell.

Why is it such a hard sell???
As PP said, decades of intense and strategic PR on behalf of a goddamn behemoth economic force.

It's a matter of perspective.

"There are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns."

Outsiders looking in: "Take our system, adjust it to fit the data and your needs and your good to go."

Your data might be incomplete and missing nuance, leading to incorrect conclusions. That in turn leads to badly implemented plans. (Undersized programs for a given area being my worry. It cannot be adjusted because all resources have been used and must go through the political process.)

Additionally, Universal Health Care seems to treat symptoms of a problem, but not the underlying attitudes, behaviors, environmental and psychological issues. (A man over eats because of anxiety. He refuses to see a psychiatrist or a therapist because they are for "criminals and the insane.")

So I have the feeling that whatever is currently planned won't be enough and we would need something seemingly on the scale of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez's "Green New Deal". (I'm not saying that her plan was a good one, simply that saying the scale of the plan is what I think we need.)

Only one way to find out though.

You're right.
Universal healthcare is not a panacea or a solution to even most healthcare problems, nor is it designed to be. No one in a country like Canada would ever claim that it is.

As for what is currently planned??? Is anything currently planned? I'm not that up on my US politics in that much detail, but as far as I see, universal healthcare in the US is about as "planned" as Brexit was before the referendum.

Right now it just seems to be a growing vague acknowledgement that the current system is suboptimal and that change is complicated and heavily opposed by a lot of political and economic forces.

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/13/18103087/medicare-for-all-single-payer-democrats-sanders-jayapal


Plans and figures are being figured it seems. They sound like salesmen though. All talk about price, no talk about the cost of maintenance.

Quote
Additionally, Universal Health Care seems to treat symptoms of a problem, but not the underlying attitudes, behaviors, environmental and psychological issues.
And the current US system does that?

Actually UHC does try to treat the problems. Certainly more than greedy insurances. Simply because everyone is in it and shares the costs.
Just to take one example: In Germany you can get a lot of pre-emptive stuff. You get bonuses for regularily going to the dentist. A free trough-check starting at age 35 every 2 years. My local health insurer has regular "how to eat healthy" courses (okay, those cost a bit of money). Diverse Cancer checks.
And of course you don't pay for visiting the doctor. (We actually had a 10€ per 3 month thing running for a few years. It did not reduce the amount of visits by a meaningful measure. Surprise: Most people don't have fun sitting one hour or longer in a room with sick people!)

As I pointed out with the heroin addict example, she gets arrested, goes to "Drug Court", put in (state funded) rehab, comes out clean, moves in with her family, one month later she's on heroin again.

It sounds like something similar would happen under unversal health care. Constantly cycling people through the system seems wasteful and unsuccessful. It would be prudent for Americans to stop the drug war and open safe injection sites to supplement Universal Health Care. Or alternatively have people in rehab for longer stints to teach life skills.

I'm simply stating Americans will have to butcher quite a few "sacred cows" to make the system work, let alone be successful.

gentmach

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #282 on: February 16, 2019, 12:35:10 PM »
Quote
No-one expects a universal health plan to take care of everything any more than they expect private health insurance to cover everything. Some of it is up to us.  I knew someone who died of breast cancer because she refused to go to a doctor, that is not something a health insurance plan, public or private, can deal with.

I believe when I said "There is some personal responsibility" I was roasted because people thought I wanted to deny care.

Good to hear this.

austin944

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #283 on: February 16, 2019, 12:51:33 PM »
Well, we could speculate. For arguments sake I'll use the numbers in table 7.1.1 in this article posted above, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.179bd5a88980 .

Since the US currently spends the most per capita of any country at $8508 and the next highest spending country is Norway at $5669, then the US could reasonably expect to save the difference. That's $2839 per person, per year. Not exactly chump change.

Your same source shows that the United States has the highest obesity rate among OECD countries, and Norway has one of the lowest obesity rates.  The prevalence of diabetes in the USA is among the highest, and Norway has one of the lowest.  It says that "Diabetes-related health expenditure was estimated to be USD 176 billion in the United States alone."

It shows that the USA has some of the best medical treatment outcomes in the world.  For example, we have the highest breast cancer survival rates of any of the studied OECD countries.  That's a better measure of quality of medical care than life expectancy.

The following source shows that Norway (and Canada) have some of the longest waiting times for elective surgery or to see a specialist; the USA has among the shortest waiting times:

https://expathealth.org/healthcare/global-patient-wait-time-statistics/

When you effectively ration health care by increasing waiting times, and have lower rates of obesity and diabetes, those factors will tend to reduce overall health care costs.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 01:05:35 PM by austin944 »

pecunia

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #284 on: February 16, 2019, 12:57:28 PM »


When you effectively ration health care by increasing waiting times, and have lower rates of obesity and diabetes, those factors will tend to reduce overall health care costs.

And,.......everyone gets treated.  This would drive the price up a bit.

Abe

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #285 on: February 16, 2019, 01:44:01 PM »
Well, we could speculate. For arguments sake I'll use the numbers in table 7.1.1 in this article posted above, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/the-u-s-ranks-26th-for-life-expectancy-right-behind-slovenia/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.179bd5a88980 .

Since the US currently spends the most per capita of any country at $8508 and the next highest spending country is Norway at $5669, then the US could reasonably expect to save the difference. That's $2839 per person, per year. Not exactly chump change.

Your same source shows that the United States has the highest obesity rate among OECD countries, and Norway has one of the lowest obesity rates.  The prevalence of diabetes in the USA is among the highest, and Norway has one of the lowest.  It says that "Diabetes-related health expenditure was estimated to be USD 176 billion in the United States alone."

It shows that the USA has some of the best medical treatment outcomes in the world.  For example, we have the highest breast cancer survival rates of any of the studied OECD countries.  That's a better measure of quality of medical care than life expectancy.

The following source shows that Norway (and Canada) have some of the longest waiting times for elective surgery or to see a specialist; the USA has among the shortest waiting times:

https://expathealth.org/healthcare/global-patient-wait-time-statistics/

When you effectively ration health care by increasing waiting times, and have lower rates of obesity and diabetes, those factors will tend to reduce overall health care costs.

Regarding the cancer mortality rates:
Cervical cancer survival rates are similar to most European countries, if not slightly worse, despite much higher screening rates. This suggests failure to salvage rather than lack of access to screening. Breast cancer 5 year survival is comparable, maybe slightly better but within 5% of most countries. Regardless, 5 year overall survival is not a useful indicator in breast cancer since most deaths occur in years 5-10. This may be an indicator of poorer screening in Europe. Colorectal cancer we do have better survival than most countries and noticeably better than U.K. This is really interesting because colorectal cancer is cheap and effective to screen for, and treatment is also cheap and effective. Thus a socialized system should really knock this out of the park, unless people are not getting screened for non-financial reasons.

 We also do much better at post-stroke and post- heart attack outcomes than most European countries, likely due to an overbuilt cardiovascular medicine infrastructure. Overall I say we do roughly equivalent, maybe slightly better than Europe as a whole for healthcare, but at considerably higher cost. More importantly, the reasons for disparities are unlikely to be entirely based on financial structure, and these reports are of limited utility in figuring out why there are differences.

Also as a surgeon I can assure you that the wait times listed for the US for elective surgery is grossly underestimated, and this is not a useful metric for quality, only number of ORs available.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 01:57:23 PM by Abe »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #286 on: February 16, 2019, 03:00:12 PM »

Also as a surgeon I can assure you that the wait times listed for the US for elective surgery is grossly underestimated, and this is not a useful metric for quality, only number of ORs available.

Side comment - this is so true.  Often it is staffing shortages, not equipment.  When more technicians were hired and appointments were made at odd hours, waits here for MRIs went way down.  I had my MRI for my knees about 2 weeks after getting the doctor'sorder, not a long wait at all.  My hospital Xrays were walk-in, I had the order, I just went and they fit me in.

austin944

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #287 on: February 16, 2019, 03:39:44 PM »
<snip> insurance companies make absolutely insane profits,

That's a myth in the United States.

The profitability of the health care insurance industry was ranked 46th out of 76 industries, in terms of profits as a percentage of revenue (median of 2.3%), according to the non-partisan Congressional Research Service (see Table 4):

https://www.ncsl.org/documents/health/MrktStrOfHlthIns.pdf

Hardly "insane" profits.

pecunia

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #288 on: February 16, 2019, 03:52:35 PM »
Not the insurance companies?

Looks like the providers do OK.

https://www.axios.com/health-care-industry-on-track-massive-q2-profits-1533226387-dacec8f8-c9f5-406c-a49e-1103e3316c64.html

People pay a lot more than they do in the other countries.  That money is going somewhere.

Margie

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #289 on: February 16, 2019, 04:18:01 PM »
+1 to that!
It's not perfect, but there's no way in hell I'd ever trade it for the US system.

Universal Health Care means that people are able to take risks like starting businesses or other ventures even when they have kids.

A year ago I left my adequate job with good benefits to buy a business and work on upgrading it.  It did mean losing my 'extended health insurance'.  If we were in the US there is NO WAY I could have done that with 2 kids at home (DW's job has no benefits either). 

We will still pay for dental and I hope one of the kids doesn't knock his teeth out, but I don't worry about a bankruptcy inducing health crisis that is not covered (like when my 9 year old spent a week in hospital in November with pneumonia).  I was able to take a risk, unlike a middle aged American in the same situation. 

You can pry my health card from my cold dead hands.  It is pro business, pro innovation and makes everything better.  I am continually astonished at the bizarre pretzel logic that happens in the US debates on health care.

My husband switched jobs (excellent move!) but we now have to pay out of pocket for dental or eye care.  You might want to double check the insurance you can purchase for your kids through school - it is super cheap - I think I paid around $300 for both kids for three years 24/7/365 for accidental care...I bought it for the dental.  It even covers up to $10 000/tooth/ten years following accident.  (my kids are sporty I was thinking knocking a few teeth out!)  It also covers broken glasses!

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #290 on: February 23, 2019, 12:45:33 PM »
And here come the insurance and for-profit health care companies, mobilizing their lobbyists to make sure the American people don’t get in the way of their profits.

Non-US people, this is one large piece of why nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/23/us/politics/medicare-for-all-lobbyists.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Abe

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #291 on: February 23, 2019, 09:22:18 PM »
Not the insurance companies?

Looks like the providers do OK.

https://www.axios.com/health-care-industry-on-track-massive-q2-profits-1533226387-dacec8f8-c9f5-406c-a49e-1103e3316c64.html

People pay a lot more than they do in the other countries.  That money is going somewhere.

The article provides a spreadsheet summary of the profit data. Looking at this data, most of the highest-profit companies are pharmaceuticals, suppliers of hospital equipment, or REITs that own hospital real estate (weird thing I didn't even know existed!) So it isn't the providers who are profiting the most from healthcare, it's the  above-listed sectors.


pecunia

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #292 on: February 24, 2019, 09:13:22 AM »
Not the insurance companies?

Looks like the providers do OK.

https://www.axios.com/health-care-industry-on-track-massive-q2-profits-1533226387-dacec8f8-c9f5-406c-a49e-1103e3316c64.html

People pay a lot more than they do in the other countries.  That money is going somewhere.

The article provides a spreadsheet summary of the profit data. Looking at this data, most of the highest-profit companies are pharmaceuticals, suppliers of hospital equipment, or REITs that own hospital real estate (weird thing I didn't even know existed!) So it isn't the providers who are profiting the most from healthcare, it's the  above-listed sectors.

So there's a layer there that gives the hint of a way to disguise the money trail.  Hospital real estate?  Are hospitals rented like office buildings? 

And here come the insurance and for-profit health care companies, mobilizing their lobbyists to make sure the American people don’t get in the way of their profits.

Non-US people, this is one large piece of why nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/23/us/politics/medicare-for-all-lobbyists.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

You know  - even the folks in the article who have been mobilized to stop the single payer thing are still edging the country closer to it.  Per the article, it looks like they've given up on scrapping Obamacare.  They say they want to improve it and cover everybody.  That looks like they are compromising a bit and since they want everyone covered, it's an inch or two closer to Universal Health Care.

The money for universal Obamacare would have to come from tax subsidies.  All that medical profit coming from taxes may not sit well with everyone.  A better way of providing health care would be looked at.

rocketpj

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #293 on: February 24, 2019, 09:46:06 AM »

The following source shows that Norway (and Canada) have some of the longest waiting times for elective surgery or to see a specialist; the USA has among the shortest waiting times:

https://expathealth.org/healthcare/global-patient-wait-time-statistics/

When you effectively ration health care by increasing waiting times, and have lower rates of obesity and diabetes, those factors will tend to reduce overall health care costs.

Hard to generalize Canadian health care wait times as they vary significantly between provinces.  I had an issue that required surgery from an ENT while living in BC that happened really quickly - I literally got walked over to the specialist's office from my GP in the same clinic, and had surgery the following Monday (for a non-life threatening issue).

I then moved to Ontario to go to grad school and discovered I had the same issue again and would need surgery.  It took me a full year to get through the referral/specialist/surgery process, so long that one surgery was not enough to resolve the issue.

At the end of the year, two weeks after my surgery in Ontario, I moved back to BC.  I went to my old GP, he again directed me to the ENT surgeon in the clinic and I had surgery 4 days later (resolving the issue for good).

The key difference between the two provinces at the time was funding for health care.  At the time Ontario had been 'served' by a Conservative government for over a decade, and they had done the usual 'cut taxes and defund services' drill leaving the health system seriously stressed.  In BC there had been an NDP government for a decade.

Note: taxes were roughly similar in the two provinces, though I can't remember the details.  In that decade there was a well financed push to 'privatize' health care to look more like the US, led by many of the Conservative parties and politicians (and newspapers).  Part of that process was to underfund public health care to make it look like it was in crisis and that the only 'solution' was to emulate the US and privatize everything. 

Ultimately every politician in the country has learned that messing with public health care is electoral suicide, and the fools who thought the US system was something to emulate just ended up looking like morons - from the outside looking in nobody wants to live under that system (excluding possibly a few billionaires).

austin944

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #294 on: February 24, 2019, 11:20:55 AM »
Hard to generalize Canadian health care wait times as they vary significantly between provinces.  I had an issue that required surgery from an ENT while living in BC that happened really quickly - I literally got walked over to the specialist's office from my GP in the same clinic, and had surgery the following Monday (for a non-life threatening issue).

"Since 2015, wait times to see a specialist has decreased in three provinces and stayed the same in one, but gone up in B.C., among other places. Waiting times from specialist consultation to treatment showed the same pattern: down in three provinces, the same in one, and up in B.C. and other areas.

In fact, B.C. had some of the longest specialist-to-treatment waits in the country, at 14.5 weeks, compared to 7.9 in Saskatchewan."

https://vancouversun.com/health/local-health/the-waiting-game-wait-times-are-on-the-rise-in-b-c


The BC government has a web site where you can check the surgical wait times for various procedures:

https://swt.hlth.gov.bc.ca/

If you care to name the specific procedure you had, we can look up the waiting time.

Abe

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #295 on: February 24, 2019, 12:43:24 PM »
Not the insurance companies?

Looks like the providers do OK.

https://www.axios.com/health-care-industry-on-track-massive-q2-profits-1533226387-dacec8f8-c9f5-406c-a49e-1103e3316c64.html

People pay a lot more than they do in the other countries.  That money is going somewhere.

The article provides a spreadsheet summary of the profit data. Looking at this data, most of the highest-profit companies are pharmaceuticals, suppliers of hospital equipment, or REITs that own hospital real estate (weird thing I didn't even know existed!) So it isn't the providers who are profiting the most from healthcare, it's the  above-listed sectors.

So there's a layer there that gives the hint of a way to disguise the money trail.  Hospital real estate?  Are hospitals rented like office buildings? 

Most of the established large hospitals (university or large community ones) are not rented, so would not be part of this money trail. Private hospitals may have financed construction through these REITs. In addition, private medical groups often finance, possibly through these REITs. (I know they do finance, but always assumed it was through commercial real estate loans via banks. Guess not!)

Hospital/clinic margins are quite low (2-5%), and we actually have a crisis of rural hospitals shutting down due to net losses since most of their patients are medicare (which pays average) and medicaid (which pays very poorly). Also, the high-profit specialties have often gone off and built their own free-standing clinics, leaving even less money for hospitals. Theoretically, if we had a government-run system, then there would be no private clinics, and the profits would be 0%. This would potentially save 36-90 billion a year.  ($1.8 trillion on hospital/clinic costs * 0.02 to 0.05). This amounts to 2.5% of total healthcare spending at the high end. Not chump change, but not a big dent either.


RetiredAt63

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #296 on: February 24, 2019, 03:10:46 PM »

Hospital/clinic margins are quite low (2-5%), and we actually have a crisis of rural hospitals shutting down due to net losses since most of their patients are medicare (which pays average) and medicaid (which pays very poorly). Also, the high-profit specialties have often gone off and built their own free-standing clinics, leaving even less money for hospitals. Theoretically, if we had a government-run system, then there would be no private clinics, and the profits would be 0%. This would potentially save 36-90 billion a year.  ($1.8 trillion on hospital/clinic costs * 0.02 to 0.05). This amounts to 2.5% of total healthcare spending at the high end. Not chump change, but not a big dent either.

Maybe some of those rural hospitals would still be open?  Not having a regional hospital is bad for everyone in the area no matter what their health coverage is.

Rural health care is still an issue here, simply because so many areas have huge land areas with low populations - how do you serve them adequately?

rocketpj

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #297 on: February 24, 2019, 06:07:47 PM »
Hard to generalize Canadian health care wait times as they vary significantly between provinces.  I had an issue that required surgery from an ENT while living in BC that happened really quickly - I literally got walked over to the specialist's office from my GP in the same clinic, and had surgery the following Monday (for a non-life threatening issue).

"Since 2015, wait times to see a specialist has decreased in three provinces and stayed the same in one, but gone up in B.C., among other places. Waiting times from specialist consultation to treatment showed the same pattern: down in three provinces, the same in one, and up in B.C. and other areas.

In fact, B.C. had some of the longest specialist-to-treatment waits in the country, at 14.5 weeks, compared to 7.9 in Saskatchewan."

https://vancouversun.com/health/local-health/the-waiting-game-wait-times-are-on-the-rise-in-b-c


The BC government has a web site where you can check the surgical wait times for various procedures:

https://swt.hlth.gov.bc.ca/

If you care to name the specific procedure you had, we can look up the waiting time.

I have no doubt that wait times have changed since that experience (a multi-year process that ended around 2003).  Official waiting times, in my experience, are somewhat different than actual waits as there are often changes and people move up the waiting list for various reasons.

The surgery was day surgery, so that is a different animal than more invasive experiences.  I have little doubt that had I needed that treatment in the US and as a young person it would have bankrupted me at the time.

DaMa

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #298 on: February 24, 2019, 07:12:01 PM »
Not the insurance companies?

Looks like the providers do OK.

https://www.axios.com/health-care-industry-on-track-massive-q2-profits-1533226387-dacec8f8-c9f5-406c-a49e-1103e3316c64.html

People pay a lot more than they do in the other countries.  That money is going somewhere.

The article provides a spreadsheet summary of the profit data. Looking at this data, most of the highest-profit companies are pharmaceuticals, suppliers of hospital equipment, or REITs that own hospital real estate (weird thing I didn't even know existed!) So it isn't the providers who are profiting the most from healthcare, it's the  above-listed sectors.

Health insurance companies generally have low profit margins, but look at the dollars.  UnitedHealth made $2.5 billion in profit for pushing paper and payments.  Insurance companies add nothing of value to the system.  At least Pfizer's $2.8 billion is based on actually making something.  (NOT that I think making 20% profit on people's health is reasonable.)

LennStar

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Re: Universal Health Care Practicalities
« Reply #299 on: February 25, 2019, 03:53:46 AM »
So there's a layer there that gives the hint of a way to disguise the money trail.  Hospital real estate?  Are hospitals rented like office buildings? 

I can't say about the US, but a bit about Germany.

Here the healthcare used to be "socialist" hospitals, run by the state. Single doctors mostly are on their own (dentists for example).
Than the "everything needs to be privatized" shit came round. Now my town's hospital belongs to a (Swiss?) group. The building is run by one company, the doctoring by another. The doctoring one rents from the building-owning company.
Did that safe money?
Maybe a bit. I can't say that for sure. What I can say for sure is that the care did not get better. The narcotics doctor I spoke to last was not really in the position to explain the risks (as would be his job) because he was from somewhere far away and likely only learned medical German.