Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 207337 times)

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1100 on: December 01, 2017, 11:55:49 AM »
It's Kushner.

It's always been Kushner.  Boy's going to jail, I think.  I predict Trump will burn him, and Jared will gladly take the fall for him.

Maybe two years behind bars, then a pardon right before the  next inauguration?

Assuming Kushner is next up on charges, why do you assume that he will 'gladly take the fall' for DJT? 

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1101 on: December 01, 2017, 12:22:13 PM »
It's Kushner.

It's always been Kushner.  Boy's going to jail, I think.  I predict Trump will burn him, and Jared will gladly take the fall for him.

Maybe two years behind bars, then a pardon right before the  next inauguration?

Assuming Kushner is next up on charges, why do you assume that he will 'gladly take the fall' for DJT?

I don't think the FBI can flip Kushner.  He's made too many mistakes to self correct at this point, so his fortunes and his freedom are entirely tied to Donald.  He's better off accepting a life sentence to preserve Trump's power, and waiting for the inevitable pardon.  He'll still be rich after a short stay at club fed.

He's banging the emperor's daughter.  That's like the ultimate get out of jail free card, as long as there isn't a coup.  So I think he's in it all the way, no admissions of guilt, no deal making, no sharing of evidence, nothing.  I predict 100% loyalty for anything less than a death sentence.  His role in the administration will be to take all of the blame for every illegal action and concentrate it into one body that can't be denied a pardon.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1102 on: December 01, 2017, 01:00:46 PM »

He's banging the emperor's daughter.  That's like the ultimate get out of jail free card, as long as there isn't a coup.  So I think he's in it all the way, no admissions of guilt, no deal making, no sharing of evidence, nothing.  I predict 100% loyalty for anything less than a death sentence.  His role in the administration will be to take all of the blame for every illegal action and concentrate it into one body that can't be denied a pardon.
Mussolini had his son-in-law executed. Just saying.

Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1103 on: December 01, 2017, 01:34:20 PM »

He's banging the emperor's daughter.  That's like the ultimate get out of jail free card, as long as there isn't a coup.  So I think he's in it all the way, no admissions of guilt, no deal making, no sharing of evidence, nothing.  I predict 100% loyalty for anything less than a death sentence.  His role in the administration will be to take all of the blame for every illegal action and concentrate it into one body that can't be denied a pardon.
Mussolini had his son-in-law executed. Just saying.

I predict 100% loyalty, too, because he kind of doesn't have much of a choice but to be loyal and hope for the best.

But Trump would sell him out if he had to. Trump would sell anyone out, depending on the price, including and up to Ivanka. It would just depend on the price.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1104 on: December 01, 2017, 01:38:47 PM »

He's banging the emperor's daughter.  That's like the ultimate get out of jail free card, as long as there isn't a coup.  So I think he's in it all the way, no admissions of guilt, no deal making, no sharing of evidence, nothing.  I predict 100% loyalty for anything less than a death sentence.  His role in the administration will be to take all of the blame for every illegal action and concentrate it into one body that can't be denied a pardon.
Mussolini had his son-in-law executed. Just saying.

I predict 100% loyalty, too, because he kind of doesn't have much of a choice but to be loyal and hope for the best.

But Trump would sell him out if he had to. Trump would sell anyone out, depending on the price, including and up to Ivanka. It would just depend on the price.
Sol - you made a compelling case for why Kurshner will clam up and stay loyal.  Whether DJT will repay his loyalty is a different question.

Speaking of which..  what will Trump's next twitter-storm bring?  I'm guessing it'll be tomorrow morning ~5am.
Will he attempt his own "Saturday Night Massacre"?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1105 on: December 01, 2017, 01:43:27 PM »

He's banging the emperor's daughter.  That's like the ultimate get out of jail free card, as long as there isn't a coup.  So I think he's in it all the way, no admissions of guilt, no deal making, no sharing of evidence, nothing.  I predict 100% loyalty for anything less than a death sentence.  His role in the administration will be to take all of the blame for every illegal action and concentrate it into one body that can't be denied a pardon.
Mussolini had his son-in-law executed. Just saying.

I predict 100% loyalty, too, because he kind of doesn't have much of a choice but to be loyal and hope for the best.

But Trump would sell him out if he had to. Trump would sell anyone out, depending on the price, including and up to Ivanka. It would just depend on the price.
Sol - you made a compelling case for why Kurshner will clam up and stay loyal.  Whether DJT will repay his loyalty is a different question.

Speaking of which..  what will Trump's next twitter-storm bring?  I'm guessing it'll be tomorrow morning ~5am.
Will he attempt his own "Saturday Night Massacre"?
Or maybe Trump's escape plan is a dementia plea...

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1106 on: December 01, 2017, 01:47:37 PM »
Or maybe Trump's escape plan is a dementia plea...
And admit he doesn't have one of the greatest minds of all time? Publicly declare his own weakness? Phttt.... never!

I'm guessing
i) he really was barely around - just a few weeks!
ii) he went rogue
iii) but HILLARY, morning Joe MURDER, and drug-carrying MUSLIMS!!! (that is, deflect with other controversies)

PathtoFIRE

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1107 on: December 01, 2017, 01:53:46 PM »
The White House has already started labeling Flynn as an Obama official, so they're obviously going with the tried and true "it's Obama's fault" tact. It's worked wonders before, why not now?!

Lagom

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1108 on: December 01, 2017, 02:08:34 PM »
https://www.yahoo.com/news/flynn-charged-lying-fbi-plea-hearing-set-u-142319424.html

Flynn is being charged with lying to the FBI.  Plea hearing set at 10:30 am.

He's flipped.  This is a small-fries charge, which leads one to wonder what he's avoiding in exchange for cooperating with Mueller.  Very few bigger fish than Flynn...Don Jr., Kushner, and POTUS is about it.

Come on Trumpies, come tell us how this is nothing.

Indeed. Remember when the birther conspiracy resulted in multiple charges, indictments, and guilty pleads by senior administration officials???

Maybe Acroy can refresh us on those details.  (◔_◔)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:32:17 PM by Lagom »

Freedom2016

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1109 on: December 01, 2017, 02:19:24 PM »
If dotard tries to fire Mueller, Abramson predicts "all hell breaks loose." What would that mean, exactly?

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1110 on: December 01, 2017, 02:26:54 PM »
If dotard tries to fire Mueller, Abramson predicts "all hell breaks loose." What would that mean, exactly?
This, I presume...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzuRXLzqKk

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1111 on: December 01, 2017, 02:34:16 PM »
If dotard tries to fire Mueller, Abramson predicts "all hell breaks loose." What would that mean, exactly?

http://theweek.com/articles/734087/what-trump-fires-mueller

Quote
Trump couldn't fire Mueller directly — he'd have to fire Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who is overseeing Mueller's probe, and then maybe a couple of people after that before the position was eventually put in the hands of someone willing to do his bidding. And now that the indictments have started, it would be even clearer if Trump moved to get rid of Mueller that doing so would be for no purpose other than obstruction of justice.

*This was written after the Manafort Monday indictments.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/1/16585934/mueller-trump-fired

Quote
So getting rid of Mueller would be enormously costly to Trump, and could well fail to end his legal problems. This is likely why White House aides are currently advising against it.

But it’s entirely possible that, whether out of fear of what Mueller will turn up or simple annoyance at the investigation itself, Trump will pull the trigger anyway. And if he does so, the political system will be thrown into a major crisis.

Quote
So the ball would then be in congressional Republicans’ court to decide whether firing Mueller was a step too far for President Trump.

Oh, great.

paddedhat

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1112 on: December 01, 2017, 05:43:25 PM »

Eta: Any of the Trumpees want to admit that there's a Russian problem yet? Or are you still holding out for that "nothingburger?"

I'm sure we can get a straight answer from Huckabee-Sanders, LOL. She has sunk to a point that she is the new "Bagdad Bob". For any of you young punks :)  this was Saddam's Hussein' personal spokesperson, and actually had a lot in common with Spicer and Huckabee, credibility wise, although Bob was a hell of a lot more attractive than Sanders. One of Bob's last, and best performances, was standing before the cameras and swearing that the rumors of the coalition over-running Bagdad, were nothing but lies spread by infidels. As he was trying to sell that line, American tanks could be seen behind him, speeding through intersections, in the background. I'm guessing the current king of pathological liars, Huckabee-Sanders, will be facing her "Bagdad Bob" moment in the not too distant future. I'm sure it will play something like Trump being hours away from a Nixonian resignation, while Sanders is at the podium talking about how the fake news media is distorting the facts, and the presidents lawyers have been assured by Mr. Mueller, that he has and will continue to, find that the president has nothing to do with the fake, Democrat driven, Hillary lead, Russian distraction.

sherr

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1113 on: December 01, 2017, 07:22:36 PM »
Sol - you made a compelling case for why Kurshner will clam up and stay loyal.  Whether DJT will repay his loyalty is a different question.

DJT has never repaid anyone's loyalty. He demands it from everyone, gives it to no one.

Bateaux

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1114 on: December 01, 2017, 09:11:05 PM »
America won today.  It's been a long year of losing.  There is a slight glimmer of hope that we're worth saving. 

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1115 on: December 01, 2017, 10:05:00 PM »
Remember, Mueller will bring up state charges against anyone holding the hot potato at the end.   These are not pardonable crimes. 

What Id give to see Capt Asshat's Son In Law roll over on him.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 10:07:27 PM by surfhb »

paddedhat

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1116 on: December 02, 2017, 05:26:54 AM »
Remember, Mueller will bring up state charges against anyone holding the hot potato at the end.   These are not pardonable crimes. 

What Id give to see Capt Asshat's Son In Law roll over on him.

My guess is that it's more than likely, assuming he is even offered the opportunity.  Jared's father was convicted of illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion, and witness tampering, and served time in federal prison.  Jared was allegedly quite bitter about the whole affair, and in keeping with the whole pathology of the Trump cabel, the fact that his dad was convicted of multiple crimes was not the important take away for young Jared. No, he concentrated his rage on that round ball of shit, Chris Christie, who at the time, was the prosecutor who put daddy away for a total of eighteen crimes. Once Jared had the power, he successfully extracted his revenge from tubby, and anybody who got close to the Trump throne, who was even associated with Christie. 

Bottom line for Kushie?  He, like his FIL, is self deluded enough to believe that the rule of law is beneath him, but Jared watched his father suffer from "unwarranted prosecution", and will unlikely be willing to suffer the same fate in service to his great Orange Overlord. OTOH,  Mueller might have little interest in saving Jared, finding that a full bore prosecution is well warranted, and there will be no deal. Given that it appears that Mueller got everything he wanted from Flynn, THEN called Jared to testify. It's likely that the goal was to rack up repeated examples of Jared perjuring himself under oath. Given that Jared somehow "forgot" to list roughly 100 contacts with foreign government and business contacts, it's not hard to imagine that he wove a tale for Mueller that is going to cost him dearly in the coming months.

The other issue is how many of Trump's closest confidants are really starting to see how he is willing to toss ANYBODY under the bus to save himself. Bizarrely, Flynn enjoyed complete support, and a close relationship, with Trump for many months after Trump could no longer fend off pressure from Intelligence community regarding the fact that Flynn is, either compromised by the Russians, a liar, or both. Flynn told a close friend that one strong factor in his decision to flip was that Trump had now abandoned him to twist in the wind. I imagine that there are lots of high level Trump staffers who are spending this weekend sweating like a dog trying to shit a peach pit. 

Anybody else notice, that the Twitterer in chief, who never goes more than a few hours without attacking anybody and everybody, hasn't made a peep in the 24 hours since Flynn plead guilty. The silence is not only stunning, but speaks volumes.

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1117 on: December 02, 2017, 09:16:20 AM »
Anybody else notice, that the Twitterer in chief, who never goes more than a few hours without attacking anybody and everybody, hasn't made a peep in the 24 hours since Flynn plead guilty. The silence is not only stunning, but speaks volumes.

It's a concerted effort by his aides and lawyers to keep him busy 24/7 to avoid a twitter firing of Mueller.

Every time he reaches for his keyboard, they distract him by complimenting his brilliance or hair.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1118 on: December 02, 2017, 10:47:03 AM »
Anybody else notice, that the Twitterer in chief, who never goes more than a few hours without attacking anybody and everybody, hasn't made a peep in the 24 hours since Flynn plead guilty. The silence is not only stunning, but speaks volumes.

It's a concerted effort by his aides and lawyers to keep him busy 24/7 to avoid a twitter firing of Mueller.

This is a short-term strategy bound to fail, like hoping if you just keep teenagers busy enough they won't discover the opposite sex. Sooner or later the dam will break.  Coverage of Flynn's plea cannot be interpreted as anything but a negative, regarldes of the spin.  Even Fox News is basically conceding "yup, he's guilty" before saying "...but it doesn't prove collusion".

That's the best they've got thus-far; collusion isn't proven (yet). But there's no way they can shake off the fact that multiple people within their campaigns have committed crimes associated with a foreign nation.

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1119 on: December 02, 2017, 11:05:28 AM »
Even odds on a Saturday Night Massacre?

Nixon fired two before he found a jelly spine (How did we ever get to where Bork was a SC nominee?). Trump may have to fire more.

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1120 on: December 02, 2017, 12:39:42 PM »
Trump's tweet this morning is painting a pretty clear picture of obstruction of justice.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1121 on: December 02, 2017, 12:53:20 PM »
Trump's tweet this morning is painting a pretty clear picture of obstruction of justice.

Which tweet?

turketron

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1122 on: December 02, 2017, 01:51:36 PM »
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/937007006526959618

Quote
I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI. He has pled guilty to those lies. It is a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful. There was nothing to hide!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/12/02/trumps-first-tweet-about-michael-flynns-guilty-plea-could-be-a-problem-for-him

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1123 on: December 02, 2017, 02:17:22 PM »
That's a tweet that wasn't cleared by WH lawyers.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1124 on: December 02, 2017, 02:32:32 PM »
::facepalm::

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1125 on: December 02, 2017, 07:21:51 PM »
I'm looking forward to Huckabee-Sanders trying to answer questions from the press about why the President asked Comey to stop investigating Flynn, now that he's admitted that he already knew Flynn had been lying to the FBI at that point.

Seems like textbook obstruction of justice, to me.  He knew one of his senior staff had committed a crime, and he tried to help him get away with it.

Dude, you're the F'ing President.  Try to act like it once in a while.

Also, if you're not interested in being Presidential and just want to be a common criminal, maybe stop tweeting out evidence against yourself quite so often.  I would hate to be your lawyer.  Better Call Saul.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1126 on: December 02, 2017, 07:44:00 PM »
I hope Mueller has Flynn in a safe location. 

paddedhat

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1127 on: December 03, 2017, 03:39:48 AM »
maybe stop tweeting out evidence against yourself quite so often.  I would hate to be your lawyer.  Better Call Saul.
Don't know if you caught it, but when the Orange Oligarch was first shopping for a legal firm to help with this mess, the press went to the top three or four most likely candidates in the DC legal community. They asked if any of these high power firms, with past experience in presidential shenanigans, were going to be accepting the job? Several commented for the record, essentially saying, "why work for a guy that refuses to listen to you, and doesn't pay his bills".  Interesting to be the most powerful man in the world, with access to billions in personal assets, and unable to sign the best of council, because you are too arrogant and dishonest to be of interest to those most qualified to save you.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1128 on: December 03, 2017, 08:07:08 AM »
maybe stop tweeting out evidence against yourself quite so often.  I would hate to be your lawyer.  Better Call Saul.
Don't know if you caught it, but when the Orange Oligarch was first shopping for a legal firm to help with this mess, the press went to the top three or four most likely candidates in the DC legal community. They asked if any of these high power firms, with past experience in presidential shenanigans, were going to be accepting the job? Several commented for the record, essentially saying, "why work for a guy that refuses to listen to you, and doesn't pay his bills".  Interesting to be the most powerful man in the world, with access to billions in personal assets, and unable to sign the best of council, because you are too arrogant and dishonest to be of interest to those most qualified to save you.
Trump has always cared more about image and loyalty than substance. When fill out his administration he approached it as if it were a casting call, emphasizing the "look" he was after, regardless of whether the people were even above average from the applicant pool. Remember - he was irritated by Spicer' first press conference not because it was so absurdly confrontational (he apparently loved that) but because Spicey was wearing an ill fitting suit. How dare his wardrobe be sub-par!!

In that regard, not sure you could find a more distinct "look" for a lawyer than his now council Ty Cobb.   It's a style not encountered often outside film-noire flicks.

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1129 on: December 03, 2017, 03:01:32 PM »
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/937007006526959618

Quote
I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the FBI. He has pled guilty to those lies. It is a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful. There was nothing to hide!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/12/02/trumps-first-tweet-about-michael-flynns-guilty-plea-could-be-a-problem-for-him

Realizing Trump's error, his lawyers did damage control:

Quote
President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, John Dowd, told CNN on Sunday that he wrote a tweet for the @realDonaldTrump Twitter account about the firing of former White House national security adviser Michael Flynn.


nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1130 on: December 03, 2017, 03:52:17 PM »

Realizing Trump's error, his lawyers did damage control:

Quote
President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, John Dowd, told CNN on Sunday that he wrote a tweet for the @realDonaldTrump Twitter account about the firing of former White House national security adviser Michael Flynn.
I wonder if there is any legal liability for claiming to have written a post when you didn't.  In one scenario DJT is (at the very least) implying that what comes from @realDonaldTrump is from him. If its not, is that a problem?  If it is but his lawyer says its wasn't to shield him from legal liability - is that kosher?

Peter Parker

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1131 on: December 03, 2017, 04:00:19 PM »

Realizing Trump's error, his lawyers did damage control:

Quote
President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, John Dowd, told CNN on Sunday that he wrote a tweet for the @realDonaldTrump Twitter account about the firing of former White House national security adviser Michael Flynn.
I wonder if there is any legal liability for claiming to have written a post when you didn't.  In one scenario DJT is (at the very least) implying that what comes from @realDonaldTrump is from him. If its not, is that a problem?  If it is but his lawyer says its wasn't to shield him from legal liability - is that kosher?

I don't give a damn who wrote it given this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMb3GbwbApY

Also I think the attorney may have pierced the attorney/client privilege by doing this as well...


nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1132 on: December 03, 2017, 04:16:23 PM »

Realizing Trump's error, his lawyers did damage control:

Quote
President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, John Dowd, told CNN on Sunday that he wrote a tweet for the @realDonaldTrump Twitter account about the firing of former White House national security adviser Michael Flynn.
I wonder if there is any legal liability for claiming to have written a post when you didn't.  In one scenario DJT is (at the very least) implying that what comes from @realDonaldTrump is from him. If its not, is that a problem?  If it is but his lawyer says its wasn't to shield him from legal liability - is that kosher?

I don't give a damn who wrote it given this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMb3GbwbApY

Also I think the attorney may have pierced the attorney/client privilege by doing this as well...

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm getting at - the WH has maintained on multiple occasions that tweets from @realDonaldTrump are "official policy".  ... Makes it a little hard to walk-back later unless the account was used without his permission (e.g. hacked)

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1133 on: December 03, 2017, 04:53:43 PM »
Makes it a little hard to walk-back later unless the account was used without his permission (e.g. hacked)

I expect the lawyer will soon issue a new statement claiming to have hacked djt's personal Twitter account and posted there without his permission, using trump's distinctive 3rd grade reading level vocab and grammar.  Sad!!!!

Johnez

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1134 on: December 03, 2017, 05:09:36 PM »
Damn, so the Dump Truck can't get his lies straight. And now he has his lawyers lying in public. I'm embarrassed as an American that this guy is our leader, imagine working for him... At this rate Mueller's gonna have enough to flip the whole administration before year's end.

Barbaebigode

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1135 on: December 04, 2017, 04:39:58 AM »
So his lawyer ate his homework? WTF

If they said that trump got the dates wrong or misworded something it would be more credible for a guy that lives in his own reality.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1136 on: December 04, 2017, 05:42:03 AM »
So his lawyer ate his homework? WTF

If they said that trump got the dates wrong or misworded something it would be more credible for a guy that lives in his own reality.

They can’t say that, because DJT’s schtick is to never admit weakness and always project extreme confidence.  He has “one of the greatest minds of all time” and is “smarter than the generals”.
His gaffs are never gaffs, but some cunning trick you just don’t understand (remember  ‘Covfefe’?)

I’m pretty sure the fastest way you could provoke his ire is to tell the world he did something wrong.

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1137 on: December 04, 2017, 11:01:43 AM »
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-02-01/donald-trumps-tweets-are-now-presidential-records

Doesn't matter who wrote it.

Quote
A U.S. National Archives spokesperson has recently said that posted tweets are considered presidential records.

Here's another conflicting point in the "I fired Flynn because he lied" plot.  After Comey testified, Trump admitted he made up the possibility of having tapes to ensure Comey told the truth.

Quote
“When [Comey] found out that there may be tapes out there…I think his story may have changed,” Trump said on Fox Friday. “Then he has to tell what actually took place at the events.”

Quote
“It wasn’t very stupid,” Trump continued. “He did admit that what I said was right and, if you look further back before he heard about that, maybe he wasn’t admitting that.”

http://time.com/4829936/donald-trump-james-comey-tapes-bluff/

So Trump makes up having tapes of recorded conversations to intimidate a witness into telling the truth (?) and then after says he did.

So now we have Trump admitting he knew Flynn lied to FBI & Pence, kept him employed for 18 days after learning he lied to the FBI, and then via Comey's admittedly truthful testimony, asked the director of the FBI to drop the case against Flynn.

This is the head of the United States attempting to interfere and stop a criminal investigation into his National Security Adviser.  This is coming straight from Trump himself.

Now...imagine what we don't yet know (but Mueller does).

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1138 on: December 04, 2017, 11:14:21 AM »
This is the head of the United States attempting to interfere and stop a criminal investigation into his National Security Adviser.  This is coming straight from Trump himself.

Now...imagine what we don't yet know (but Mueller does).

I don't think we need anything else.  This is already enough for Mueller to bring charges.

After congress has extracted all of the compliant utility out of trump that they think they can get, they'll dump him.  Trump knows this, and must be terrified at how fragile his position is.  He's basically Mitch McConnell's little bitch from here on out.  He'll do anything and everything to stay in good graces with congress because he knows they can dispose of him at any time for the crimes he has committed.

But congress has other considerations too.  It's bad party politics to impeach your president, no matter how guilty he is.  They'll want to find a way to soothe the message so they don't lose voters.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 11:38:49 AM by sol »

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1139 on: December 04, 2017, 11:32:39 AM »
They'll want to find a way to soothe the message so they don't lose voters.

I think this is the issue, the Republicans aren't going to do anything to alienate Trump voters, so therefore they won't do anything when Mueller brings forth charges of obstruction of justice. Trump's negative tweets about the FBI has to really irk not just the FBI, but many people in uniform as well.

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1140 on: December 04, 2017, 11:39:43 AM »
They'll want to find a way to soothe the message so they don't lose voters.

I think this is the issue, the Republicans aren't going to do anything to alienate Trump voters, so therefore they won't do anything when Mueller brings forth charges of obstruction of justice. Trump's negative tweets about the FBI has to really irk not just the FBI, but many people in uniform as well.

He has been undermining the intelligence agencies as well - since before he got in office.  It's absurd.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1141 on: December 04, 2017, 11:43:45 AM »
I don't think we need anything else.  This is already enough for Mueller to bring charges.
It may be 'enough to bring charges', but a competent prosecutor (which Mueller definitely is) will not stop at 'enough.'  He will continue the investigation until there is "nothing left" that can be proven. My greatest fear regarding this investigation is that it will get terminated and the reports will be forever buried and/or destroyed.  It would not surprise me if someone has already made the calculation that facing a charge of willfully destroying evidence is preferable to whatever that evidence says.  Similarly, DJT may decide that the fallout from his own "Saturday Night Massacre" would be preferable to those reports becoming part of the public sphere.

Quote
After congress has extracted all of the compliant utility out of trump that they think they can get, they'll dump him.  Trump knows this, and must be terrified at how fragile his position is.  He's basically Mitch McConnell's little bitch from here on out.  He'll do anything and everything to stay in good graces with congress because be knows they can dispose of him at any time for the crimes he has committed.
the GOP is definitely riding DJT as far and as long as they get their wish list.  I'm not convinced that Trump undertsands this though.  He likely (still) thinks that he's a brilliant person who can fix the nation's problems if only everone would listen to him and stop doing pesky things like following established law and checking his power.
He's also never been one to hold his punches when personally attacked.  I remember a magazine article where he talked about his strategy of counter-attacking   regardless of the long-term fallout.  Something along the lines of: I'll hit back even if it means we'll both wind up in quicksand.  I'll worry about the quicksand later.  That's continued to be his strategy as a politician.  He's attacked members of his own party who's votes he needed for a legislative "win" - and worried about the consequences later (or not at all).  See McCain, Flake, McConnell, Cruz, Corker, Ryan etc.

The GOP will ride DJT to get their tax cuts, then they'll try to drive him to shred the social safety net.  Given its legendary status of the "third rail" of politics and Trump's longtime insistance that he will not cut SS I wonder how much traction this will get.  I imagine much of his rural base will revolt if told they are privatizing SS like Ryan deeply wants.  If we get to this point I predict DJT and the GOP will fracture and the whole thing will grind to a halt.

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But congress has other considerations too.  It's bad party politics to impeach your president, no matter how guilty he is.  They'll want to find a way to soothe the message so they don't lose voters.
This latest crop of GOP has shown little spine.  Few spoke up when he ridiculed Cruz's wife, when he mocked a disabled reporter, when he talked about Mexicans being rapists, when he tried to enact two travel bans that were "definitely bans!!!", when he repeatedly called for a former secretary of state to be locked up, when he - repeatedly - pissed off our closest allies, when he attacked the FBI, when he tweeted racist graphics and videos, when he appointed those who had donated to his charity to positions they had no experience in, when he praised dictators and said the US will no longer consider human rights abuses, when he refused to release his taxes, when he again brought up the 'birther' conspiracy he started after he claimed to be the one who ended it, ...

Yeah, they won't vote to impeach him.  I think that there's at least a few dozen members who secretly hope they lose the house in '18 or '20 so that the democrats can be the ones to finally start the impeachment process.  And/or that Mueller does their dirty work for them by bringing up obstruction and/or collusion charges.  They they'll have a giant shield to cower behind when they say "well it's not me saying this, but given the charges and our laws I simply have no choice".  I'm guessing that some of them actually yearn for the days when they were the minority party (or didn't control the WH) when they could grandstand on taxes and healthcare with little fear that they'd actually have to do something and then be held accountable.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1142 on: December 04, 2017, 11:47:43 AM »
He has been undermining the intelligence agencies as well - since before he got in office.  It's absurd.
No, it's strategic.  This is a guy with decades of shady business dealings, and who's been under investigation since before the election was held. The intelligence agencies are a big threat to him and his family.  His attempts to undermine and discredit them are a preemptive strike; ruin their credibility and suggest political partiality before any analysis or charges are brought. He's already hard at work discrediting the witness.

former player

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1143 on: December 04, 2017, 01:40:37 PM »
He has been undermining the intelligence agencies as well - since before he got in office.  It's absurd.
No, it's strategic.  This is a guy with decades of shady business dealings, and who's been under investigation since before the election was held. The intelligence agencies are a big threat to him and his family.  His attempts to undermine and discredit them are a preemptive strike; ruin their credibility and suggest political partiality before any analysis or charges are brought. He's already hard at work discrediting the witness.
Don't forget that he is also working hard to undermine the media ("fake news") that might report on the facts found against him.

I don't believe the Republicans have any honour for the Constitution at all: they demonstrated that they had already lost that when refusing to consider Merrick Garland for the Supreme Court for nothing more than party political advantage.  Trump is going to spend the next couple of years demonstrating that the best Constitution in the world (if it is that) is worthless when not enough people with power have the courage to stand up for the rule of law.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1144 on: December 04, 2017, 02:08:37 PM »

I don't believe the Republicans have any honour for the Constitution at all: they demonstrated that they had already lost that when refusing to consider Merrick Garland for the Supreme Court for nothing more than party political advantage.  Trump is going to spend the next couple of years demonstrating that the best Constitution in the world (if it is that) is worthless when not enough people with power have the courage to stand up for the rule of law.

We shall see.  Current and recent events have the tendency to seem like they will continue indefinitely (recency bias). These 'constitutional crises' have happened before and were ultimately curtailed, though often taking a few years to play out.  Joe McCarthy ran his red-scare for 4 years before he overreached and got trampled by the US Army and the US Senate (who took about that long to grow a spine).  It took 26 months for Nixon to resign after the break-in and subsequent arrests at the Watergate Hotel.

Hopefully a combination of evidence, re-election fears and basic human decency will snap enough politicians back into their constitutionally mandated roles.

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1145 on: December 04, 2017, 03:05:45 PM »
https://twitter.com/SarahHuckabee/status/794255968448020480

LOL SHS.

Quote
When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1146 on: December 04, 2017, 03:07:15 PM »
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/04/jeff-sessions-president-obstruct-justice-bill-clinton-278517

Sessions argued in 1999 that Presidents CAN obstruct justice, contradicting Trump's lawyer.

Barbaebigode

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1147 on: December 05, 2017, 05:11:19 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller

The Deutsche Bank handed DT's info to Mueller. If anyone still had doubts if the president was being personally investigated...

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1148 on: December 05, 2017, 05:35:28 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller

The Deutsche Bank handed DT's info to Mueller. If anyone still had doubts if the president was being personally investigated...

Well DJT said months ago in an interview with the NY Times that any inquiry into his personal finances would be a 'red line' - we'll see what he does about this latest development.

"Follow the money" is a prosecutor's mantra. 

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1149 on: December 05, 2017, 10:08:15 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller

The Deutsche Bank handed DT's info to Mueller. If anyone still had doubts if the president was being personally investigated...

Well DJT said months ago in an interview with the NY Times that any inquiry into his personal finances would be a 'red line' - we'll see what he does about this latest development.

"Follow the money" is a prosecutor's mantra.

Pure speculation: The loan backer is intimately involved with the Russian Government.