Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 80554 times)

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #900 on: October 30, 2017, 08:06:22 AM »
Well we've gone from a "nothing-burger" to a full indictment against Paul Manafort, former campaign chairman for Trump.  Not only has he been charged of criminal wrongdoing, but among the 12 criminal charges are 'conspiracy against the United States' and 'conspiracy to launder money'.  If convicted Manafort could spend the rest of his life in jail.

Interesting to see where it goes from here.  Will Michael Flynn be next?  Kushner?  Now that the charges have been made the screws will be on Manafort to cut a deal.  Given that DJT threw him under the bus already I wonder how deep his loyalty will lie.

Other questions I have:  what will DJT do in the next 72 hour to  try to distract and distance himself from this media storm?  He's already tried claiming that his former campaign chairman played only a "minor role" (laughable). I expect him to viciously attack Mueller now.  Maybe he'll start another fight on a gold-star family or insinuate that McCain is a Vietnamese spy or escalate tensions with Kim Jong Un.

Will he pardon Manafort?  Will Manafort flip?  How many more indictments will we see by year's end?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/manafort-and-former-business-partner-asked-to-surrender-in-connection-with-special-counsel-probe/2017/10/30/6fe051f0-bd67-11e7-959c-fe2b598d8c00_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-high_specialcounsel-817am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c6f1875aa906
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DavidAnnArbor

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #901 on: October 30, 2017, 08:13:45 AM »
I have a problem with trust in this instance. If I keep my land private and am adjacent to public lands, can I trust them to maintain the drainage network? It is a law that they have to maintain them. That is subject to the availability of funds though. So could I be forced to sell because there was never any "funds" available? I mean, it's not like there's a threat of government shutdown over budgets every two years or so, right?

And guess which party makes threats to shutdown the government funding?  Clue: It's not the Democrats.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #902 on: October 30, 2017, 08:24:35 AM »
gentmach, GuitarStv, DavidAnnArbor, GlenStach, Sol & others

While there's much to be said on the topic of TNC, wildlife refuges and communities in poverty, we've strayed far from the thread topic, precisely at a time when indictments are becoming public.

If you wish to discuss furhter I suggest we create a separate thread and get this one back on track.
Mahalo
~n~
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Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #903 on: October 30, 2017, 08:40:12 AM »
Well we've gone from a "nothing-burger" to a full indictment against Paul Manafort, former campaign chairman for Trump.  Not only has he been charged of criminal wrongdoing, but among the 12 criminal charges are 'conspiracy against the United States' and 'conspiracy to launder money'.  If convicted Manafort could spend the rest of his life in jail.

Interesting to see where it goes from here.  Will Michael Flynn be next?  Kushner?  Now that the charges have been made the screws will be on Manafort to cut a deal.  Given that DJT threw him under the bus already I wonder how deep his loyalty will lie.

Other questions I have:  what will DJT do in the next 72 hour to  try to distract and distance himself from this media storm?  He's already tried claiming that his former campaign chairman played only a "minor role" (laughable). I expect him to viciously attack Mueller now.  Maybe he'll start another fight on a gold-star family or insinuate that McCain is a Vietnamese spy or escalate tensions with Kim Jong Un.

Will he pardon Manafort?  Will Manafort flip?  How many more indictments will we see by year's end?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/manafort-and-former-business-partner-asked-to-surrender-in-connection-with-special-counsel-probe/2017/10/30/6fe051f0-bd67-11e7-959c-fe2b598d8c00_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-high_specialcounsel-817am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c6f1875aa906

And then there's this: Trump campaign foreign policy advisor George Papadopolous has pled guilty to to making false statements to FBI agents. Via Business Insider correspondent Natasha Bertrand. @NatashaBertrand

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

surfhb

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #904 on: October 30, 2017, 08:52:13 AM »
I think Mueller is working with the NY DA to bring state charges Upon those indicted.   This way it would be impossible for Capt Shitbag to pardon them.

Lagom

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #905 on: October 30, 2017, 09:47:24 AM »
Don't worry guys, this has nothing to do with Trump. Also, something something Hillary. (◔_◔)

Wexler

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #906 on: October 30, 2017, 09:52:28 AM »
Don't worry guys, this has nothing to do with Trump. Also, something something Hillary. (◔_◔)

I guess we are all learning what a nothingburger tastes like.  So far, what the right has trotted out in response is:

1.  HILLARY!!!1!!
2. John Podesta (see point 1)
3. Sure, Manafort is a criminal, but-like-way before he was Trump's campaign manager
4. deafening silence

I miss the W Republicans.  They at least always had their talking points ready to go at minute one. 


Just Joe

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #907 on: October 30, 2017, 10:25:04 AM »
He's a libertarian asking another libertarian. Most of these responses are liberty-reducing from the perspective of a mainstream liberal, not necessarily a libertarian.

Libertarians do not like the civil asset forfeiture.

If you think Trump is actually de-legitimizing the Executive, and your major concern is Executive overreach, Trump's disasters are a net-positive for the nation. They will hopefully lead to an emboldened Congress asserting its legal authority (like the War Powers Act over Niger right now).

The biggest threat to the US freedom is executive overreach which has been a bipartisan trend since the Cold War, IMO.

As far as I can tell, Acroy is a culture warrior, making him not a libertarian by definition. I totally agree with your latter analysis btw. The best outcome I can hope for at this point is 1) that Trump doesn't get too many of our soldiers (not to mention South Koreans) killed/start a major conflict and 2) congress actually does something to curb the very real and very bipartisan expansion of executive authority in recent decades.

Go back and watch the final episode of Ken Burn's "Vietnam War". What a mess the USA left behind in Vietnam. I wonder what the end of the Korean war was like.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #908 on: October 30, 2017, 10:36:40 AM »

3. Sure, Manafort is a criminal, but-like-way before he was Trump's campaign manager

This one in particular seems like a very poor defense, and one that has the potential to backfire spectacularly.
Either
i) the Trump campaign knew about his foreign dealings (likely) and just didn't give a damn, or
ii) they were entirely ignorant - which would show a shocking callousness in vetting high-level employees. 

Remember that Ivanka and Jared Kurshner pushed hard for Trump to hire Manafort to replace the combative Cory Lewandowski. 

Imagine for a second that this scenario played out at a fortune 500 company; A top level executive was indicted for multiple felonies with a potential sentence of life.  That company's defense would never, ever be: well we kinda knew about this but it was before we hired him so no problem for us! Hell no!  They could flirt with #2 (we didn't know!) but would put out press blurbs about how they were implementing a top-down review of hiring practices to ensure no additional person - past or present - could be in a similar position.

...but Trump's response thus far has been firmly #1. 
Quote from: Trump
Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why arenít Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????


DJT's focus on HRC is also wearing thin. Why aren't HRC and the Dems the focus?  Because you are sitting in the WH, and the breadcrumbs from Russia have all led to people from within the campaign (Manafort, Flynn, Kushner, DJT himself...)
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #909 on: October 30, 2017, 10:54:19 AM »
Imagine for a second that this scenario played out at a fortune 500 company;

Trump has never had the chops to operate as a F500 CEO.  His brand has always been a third-rate impersonation of a real multinational.  You should go read some of the things the Davos crew has said about him.  They all knew from day one he was a faker.

Say what you will about our global corporate elite, for all of their sins they are at least not stupid.  They know how to read the tea leaves and analyze a competitor, and they've never considered Trump to be a real player.  The fact that even we lowly peons can so easily identify the difference between the correct response and Trump's actual response is maybe telling.

Just Joe

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #910 on: October 30, 2017, 11:13:27 AM »
Brand awareness is all Trump has ever had to offer. Everyone has heard of that blowhard so he MUST be a competent businessman/politician/alpha male - right?

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #911 on: October 30, 2017, 11:40:31 AM »
I think everyone sort of expected Manafort would go to jail eventually.  The only question was what sort of deal he would cut on his way down, to lessen his sentence in exchange for telling the truth about everyone else involved.

It's hard to know for sure from the outside, but I think Trump's strategy has been to just committ his worst crimes right out in the open, in an attempt to normalize them.  The president can't obstruct justice, so just tell 60 Minutes that you're firing the top law enforcement official pursuing you in order to stop the investigation.  The president can't racially discriminate, so just admit publicly that it's a Muslim ban.  The candidate can't collude with a foreign power, so just go on tv and ask for Russia's help during the election.  The president can't pay his own family to work in the white house, so just hire as many of them as you can and say "this is totally normal now."  The president can't personally profit from his office, so just tell the secret service to rent space in one of your buildings.

It's not subtle, but by stoking the public outrage over blatantly illegal actions he buys himself some cover from the courts.  People think it must not be illegal if he is being so open about it.  Like walking into a bank and convincing the teller to open the vault for you, it's amazing what you can get away with in life with enough confidence and bluster.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #912 on: October 30, 2017, 12:03:20 PM »
Trump does seem to have a knack for 'normalizing' the formerly indefensible (and illegal) as a way of doing what he wants.  But I also think he reacts to what is directly in front of him, future consequences be damns.  If someone criticizes him he counterpunches, regardless of whether he'll need their votes later (McCain, Corker, Flake).  He'll throw someone under the bus to deflect responsibility or criticism even if they might reveal things late he'd rather keep private (Flynn, Manafort, McConnell).
In other words - hit back regardless of the longer-term consequences. 

Intersting addition:  WH press briefing just occurred with S. Huckabee-Sanders essentially non-answering any questions regarding the Manafort/Russia story ("no comment at this time" - "I have no spoken to the president about this issue" etc).  A bit surprising that a clear and alternative narrative wasn't provided to the press.  My guess is they're still devising a strategy from among a short list of crappy options (e.g. attack Mueller, divert attention, disavow Manafort).  The relative silence on Manafort is particualrly interesting to me - what could he tell the special investigator that DJT might not want know?

Also - its seems very curious to me that Michael Flynn and his lawyers have been quite silent for the last several weeks.
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #913 on: October 30, 2017, 12:41:56 PM »
Also - its seems very curious to me that Michael Flynn and his lawyers have been quite silent for the last several weeks.

I think Michael Flynn is a cooked goose.  He's taken the fifth on everything, and refused to testify to avoid perjury.  There is nothing he can say that will help him in any way.  I think he knows he screwed up and is just putting his affairs in order before he goes away.

Jeff Sessions and Jared Kushner, otoh, look ready to go down for perjury, so the less they say now the better.  They're both on record lying under oath repeatedly, and you can only claim "whoops" so many times before people start to see the pattern.

Edit:  The part of this whole scenario that most intrigues me is the potential presidential pardons it generates.  Will the President pardon the people who committed conspiracy on his behalf?  Will he try to pardon himself?  Was Joe Arpaio just testing the waters?  Does the power of the pardon effectively negate all of rest of the constitution?  I mean what's the point of having a constitution that delineates separation of powers if this one power in one branch can nullify anything in the rest of the document?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 01:01:25 PM by sol »

jambongris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #914 on: October 30, 2017, 02:06:04 PM »
Also - its seems very curious to me that Michael Flynn and his lawyers have been quite silent for the last several weeks.

I think Michael Flynn is a cooked goose.  He's taken the fifth on everything, and refused to testify to avoid perjury.  There is nothing he can say that will help him in any way.  I think he knows he screwed up and is just putting his affairs in order before he goes away.

Jeff Sessions and Jared Kushner, otoh, look ready to go down for perjury, so the less they say now the better.  They're both on record lying under oath repeatedly, and you can only claim "whoops" so many times before people start to see the pattern.

Edit:  The part of this whole scenario that most intrigues me is the potential presidential pardons it generates.  Will the President pardon the people who committed conspiracy on his behalf?  Will he try to pardon himself?  Was Joe Arpaio just testing the waters?  Does the power of the pardon effectively negate all of rest of the constitution?  I mean what's the point of having a constitution that delineates separation of powers if this one power in one branch can nullify anything in the rest of the document?

I'm not American so it's possible I misheard or misunderstood, but I thought the president could only pardon people convicted of federal crimes and so Mueller was trying to get everyone charged at the state level.

Can any Americans fact check that?

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #915 on: October 30, 2017, 03:15:16 PM »
Also - its seems very curious to me that Michael Flynn and his lawyers have been quite silent for the last several weeks.

I think Michael Flynn is a cooked goose.  He's taken the fifth on everything, and refused to testify to avoid perjury.  There is nothing he can say that will help him in any way.  I think he knows he screwed up and is just putting his affairs in order before he goes away.

Jeff Sessions and Jared Kushner, otoh, look ready to go down for perjury, so the less they say now the better.  They're both on record lying under oath repeatedly, and you can only claim "whoops" so many times before people start to see the pattern.

Edit:  The part of this whole scenario that most intrigues me is the potential presidential pardons it generates.  Will the President pardon the people who committed conspiracy on his behalf?  Will he try to pardon himself?  Was Joe Arpaio just testing the waters?  Does the power of the pardon effectively negate all of rest of the constitution?  I mean what's the point of having a constitution that delineates separation of powers if this one power in one branch can nullify anything in the rest of the document?

I'm not American so it's possible I misheard or misunderstood, but I thought the president could only pardon people convicted of federal crimes and so Mueller was trying to get everyone charged at the state level.

Can any Americans fact check that?
Dunno if there has ever been a court case about it. The President can pardon anyone for any offense committed against the United States. The DOJ website and practically everyone I have read says this means federal crimes. In the US, states and the federal government are dual sovereigns, and the President is the executive of the federal sovereign, NOT the state sovereigns. President can no more tell a Governor what to do or pardon a state crime than a governor can tell the President what to do or pardon a federal crime. An analogous scenario would be the President of the EU trying to pardon a French criminal for a French crime.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #916 on: October 30, 2017, 03:29:20 PM »

I'm not American so it's possible I misheard or misunderstood, but I thought the president could only pardon people convicted of federal crimes and so Mueller was trying to get everyone charged at the state level.

Can any Americans fact check that?
Here is my understanding, backed up by about 20 minutes of fact checking and reading...

The United States constitution gives the president the  "...power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."  (Article II, Section II)
The executive (President) pardon power extends only to federal crimes and offensives, an intentionally vague definition.

State charges are certainly possible, but Mueller, as a special counsel under the federal Department of Justice, cannot issue criminal charges under the jurisdiction of any particular state.  That must be done by the attorney general of the state in question.  What Mueller can do is work in conjunction with state AGs.  It appears he has done this with - at a minimum, New York state
Under 'dual sovereignty' rules it is possible for someone to be charged at both the state and federal level resulting from the same act.
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surfhb

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #917 on: October 30, 2017, 03:59:30 PM »
Id love to see Capt Shitbag fire Mueller.    Its very Possible

Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #918 on: October 30, 2017, 04:07:38 PM »
Id love to see Capt Shitbag fire Mueller.    Its very Possible

I've been waffling back and forth all day between thinking he's not nearly that stupid, and then thinking he's exactly that stupid.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #919 on: October 30, 2017, 06:39:16 PM »
Id love to see Capt Shitbag fire Mueller.    Its very Possible

I've been waffling back and forth all day between thinking he's not nearly that stupid, and then thinking he's exactly that stupid.

All three of DJT's lawyers made comments that firing Mueller definitely isn't about to happen - which is a bit weird in and off itself. 
- There are no discussions and there is no consideration being given to terminating Mueller.
- Thereís no firing-Robert-Mueller discussions
- No, no, no. [Firing Mueller] never come up and wonít come up


Pretty unequivical statements about what you are definitely not going to do.  Odd that they are spending effort to say what they are NOT considering.
Maybe it's the truth.  Maybe his legal team is trying earnestly to prevent it from happening in the best interest of their client (DJT). I guess we'll find out over the next few days.
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Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #920 on: October 30, 2017, 07:41:48 PM »
Id love to see Capt Shitbag fire Mueller.    Its very Possible

I've been waffling back and forth all day between thinking he's not nearly that stupid, and then thinking he's exactly that stupid.

All three of DJT's lawyers made comments that firing Mueller definitely isn't about to happen - which is a bit weird in and off itself. 
- There are no discussions and there is no consideration being given to terminating Mueller.
- Thereís no firing-Robert-Mueller discussions
- No, no, no. [Firing Mueller] never come up and wonít come up


Pretty unequivical statements about what you are definitely not going to do.  Odd that they are spending effort to say what they are NOT considering.
Maybe it's the truth.  Maybe his legal team is trying earnestly to prevent it from happening in the best interest of their client (DJT). I guess we'll find out over the next few days.

I would sort of guess this -- saying it so emphatically, over and over, makes it a little harder for Trump to contradict them so directly and do it.

That said, I can't imagine Trump would really have any compunction about going against what others have said he would not do.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

phil22

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #921 on: October 30, 2017, 08:05:14 PM »
i believe that one: trump can't pardon himself.  that wouldn't hold up.  and two: anyone he pardons can no longer plead the 5th, so they'd be forced to testify against higher-ups or trump himself -- or be held in contempt of court effectively negating the pardon.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:42:32 PM by phil22 »

surfhb

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #922 on: October 30, 2017, 08:37:12 PM »
i believe that one: trump can't pardon himself.  that's wouldn't hold up.  and two: anyone he pardons can no longer plead the 5th, so they'd be forced to testify against higher-ups or trump himself -- or be held in contempt of court effectively negating the pardon.

Mueller has been working with the NY DA.     I believe they will be presenting state charges....these cannot be pardoned by the President.

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #923 on: October 30, 2017, 09:00:53 PM »
I would sort of guess this -- saying it so emphatically, over and over, makes it a little harder for Trump to contradict them so directly and do it.

I feel like the repeated and direct statements his legal team has made to the media are just the only way those guys have of exerting any influence at all on Trump.  He watches cable news all day.  He tweets about what he sees.  He doesn't so much care what's in the daily classified briefings, he only cares what's in the public eye.  CNN is thus much more important to him than the FBI.

And from that perspective, Trump's team has always made statements to the media that they don't feel they can make to Trump himself, but that he needs to hear.  They can't advise him to not fire Mueller because it just doesn't sink in, but if they all tell the media that he won't fire Mueller, and that becomes the media narrative, he'll take that narrative seriously.

Zamboni

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #924 on: October 30, 2017, 09:29:18 PM »
I've been avoiding this thread  . . .  today seems like the right day to join.

phil22

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #925 on: October 30, 2017, 09:47:46 PM »
i believe that one: trump can't pardon himself.  that's wouldn't hold up.  and two: anyone he pardons can no longer plead the 5th, so they'd be forced to testify against higher-ups or trump himself -- or be held in contempt of court effectively negating the pardon.

Mueller has been working with the NY DA.     I believe they will be presenting state charges....these cannot be pardoned by the President.

right, i think both federal and state charges will be filed for that reason.  the charges unsealed today were federal -- perhaps to temp trump into making a pardon and thus moving this thing along.

former player

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #926 on: October 31, 2017, 02:34:55 AM »
CNN is thus much more important to him than the FBI.
Wow.  But accurate.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 05:15:44 AM by former player »
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #927 on: October 31, 2017, 04:25:51 AM »
I've been avoiding this thread  . . .  today seems like the right day to join.

welcome to the new black hole of hte forum!
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Just Joe

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #928 on: October 31, 2017, 07:30:19 AM »
The talk here is much more interesting than the news at times. People talking plainly.

I don't believe anything Trump or his team SAYS b/c as demonstrated time and again that talk is very cheap.

Inaya

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #929 on: October 31, 2017, 08:16:40 AM »
Sure, they might not fire Mueller. But they might find other ways to stop the investigation. Like defunding him.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #930 on: October 31, 2017, 08:22:41 AM »
So Papadop met with the FBI (Director Comey I believe) and lied to them in late January...hmmm what else happened that day?  Oh, Trump's request for loyalty from Comey.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #931 on: October 31, 2017, 08:31:06 AM »
I find the whole "pardon prevents one from taking the fifth" thing fascinating. But does that extend to state crimes as well? In other words, if you receive a federal pardon, and then are brought into a federal court to discuss the events for which you have received a pardon, can you continue to invoke the 5th and justify that with the possibility of state levels crimes and charges. Because what you say in federal court could be used as evidence in a state court.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #932 on: October 31, 2017, 09:01:40 AM »
Sure, they might not fire Mueller. But they might find other ways to stop the investigation. Like defunding him.

That would be just as bad and would cause the GOP to implode.   Here's hoping

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #933 on: October 31, 2017, 09:19:33 AM »
Drain the Swamp!
The more dirt Mueller exposes, the better.
Manafort, Gates, and now Podesta all getting caught with dirty money, pedaling Russian / Ukrainian influence for years, under multiple administrations.  From a purely partisan point of view, neither the R's nor the D's are liking where this is going. Most of 'em are damned swamp creatures! From my point of view, GREAT. If it does take down DJT, fine. If he's a dirty swamp rat he needs to go too.

I suspect (hope) the special council finds many interesting things, especially as it expands it's inquiry well outside the initial mandate. Throw those rats into the grind of the justice system! But so far, collusion between Trump campaign and Russia is not one of them, and I suspect it will remain this way :)
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #934 on: October 31, 2017, 09:39:47 AM »
Drain the Swamp!
The more dirt Mueller exposes, the better.
Manafort, Gates, and now Podesta all getting caught with dirty money, pedaling Russian / Ukrainian influence for years, under multiple administrations.  From a purely partisan point of view, neither the R's nor the D's are liking where this is going. Most of 'em are damned swamp creatures! From my point of view, GREAT. If it does take down DJT, fine. If he's a dirty swamp rat he needs to go too.

I suspect (hope) the special council finds many interesting things, especially as it expands it's inquiry well outside the initial mandate. Throw those rats into the grind of the justice system! But so far, collusion between Trump campaign and Russia is not one of them, and I suspect it will remain this way :)

I'm not sure how this squares with the Papadopolous conviction, since he admits to meeting with Russian operatives who offered him illegally obtained material AND the Mueller documents cite to high level campaign officials being in the loop on those meetings.  It's possible that DJT himself wasn't aware of the collusion, but it seems incorrect to me to state that the "Trump campaign" is in the clear.  Manafort himself approved the Papadopolous travel, and I think you can't get more "Trump campaign" than the campaign manager.  And, this is just the first stage of the investigation.  As an aside, while John Podesta was the Clinton campaign manager, Tony Podesta is not the same person, though they are siblings. 

As a sign of how screwed the key players know they are, they are moving from the "no collusion" defense to the "what's wrong with talking to our friends, the Russians?" defense.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/10/papadopoulos_plea_blurs_the_line_between_collusion_and_cover_up.html

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #935 on: October 31, 2017, 09:43:40 AM »
But so far, collusion between Trump campaign and Russia is not one of them, and I suspect it will remain this way :)

[MOD NOTE: that first bit wasn't really necessary.  Thank you]


Then you're a naive fool who doesn't understand how the FBI operates.  Since the '80s they've been focused on organizational tactics.  Many on Mueller's team are cut from this cloth.  They don't waste time ONLY on low level staffers and individual charges.  This is just the opening move.  They're setting themselves up to go after the whole campaign.  That's how this works.

They start low level (Papadopolous) and get him to cooperate.  They move up the chain of command until they have everyone around the head of who was responsible.  They've done this for decades with criminal organizations and it's likely the tactics they are employing now.  It's why these federal investigations take so long.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #936 on: October 31, 2017, 10:10:55 AM »
Papadopoulos erased his Facebook page because it mentioned talking with Russians. He got a new phone number because the old one had records of calls with Russians. He met with a source in London to get info on Clinton...from Russia.

This was in the employ of the campaign as a "foreign policy adviser." If that's not collusion, it's pretty damn close.

It seems that Republicans are hoping that Mueller will expand his investigation to Hillary (Benghazi!) and Obama ("He's even blacker than we thought!").

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #937 on: October 31, 2017, 10:23:40 AM »
Papadopoulos erased his Facebook page because it mentioned talking with Russians. He got a new phone number because the old one had records of calls with Russians. He met with a source in London to get info on Clinton...from Russia.

This was in the employ of the campaign as a "foreign policy adviser." If that's not collusion, it's pretty damn close.

It seems that Republicans are hoping that Mueller will expand his investigation to Hillary (Benghazi!) and Obama ("He's even blacker than we thought!").

I'm pretty sure something along these lines happened somewhere in the Trump campaign HQ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2J5OWdu3xM

But seriously, with people as undisciplined and clueless as many on his staff appear to have been, it does not speak well for Trump "hiring the best people."

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #938 on: October 31, 2017, 10:25:19 AM »
So far, it doesn't look like anything in these indictments wasn' already reported by the press.  We already knew manafort worked for the Russians.  We already knew the Trump campaign met with the Russians to try to get emails.  We already knew about the shady real estate deals to launder money.

These things have been out in the open for over a year now.  I feel like we're currently getting last season's reruns on Netflix while the new season is already airing on cable.  We're behind the curve on the current narrative.  There must be so much more in the works that were not seeing yet, based on what's dribbling out today.

For example, flynn and sessions and kushner have all done the same sort of stuff that's behind the charges against papadopolous and manafort and gates.  Trump himself has publicly sought to collude with Russia, while claiming he had no knowledge about his entire staff colluding with Russia.  Today I'm wondering if mueller's initial charges are just an attempt to reestablish the legal baseline that yes, this stuff is actually illegal and our laws still mean something.  Just because you flaunt the law publicly doesn't make it okay.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #939 on: October 31, 2017, 10:53:05 AM »
Agree.  Lots of Trump people have lied and lied and lied, including on formal disclosure documents, and now someone has been convicted of a criminal offence of lying. Flynn, Sessions and Kushner are all now looking at slam dunk criminal convictions.

Which is to say, the former Trump National Security Adviser, the current Trump Attorney General and the senior Trump White House adviser.  All about to be convicted criminals.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 10:55:12 AM by former player »
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #940 on: October 31, 2017, 11:23:48 AM »
Agree.  Lots of Trump people have lied and lied and lied, including on formal disclosure documents, and now someone has been convicted of a criminal offence of lying. Flynn, Sessions and Kushner are all now looking at slam dunk criminal convictions.

Which is to say, the former Trump National Security Adviser, the current Trump Attorney General and the senior Trump White House adviser.  All about to be convicted criminals.

If Kushner goes to jail (dare to dream) because he operated in an ethical void to manipulate himself into a position of power all in service of the endless well of resentment caused his father being convicted....it would be poetic.  And, just like his dad, he's brought this all on himself.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #941 on: October 31, 2017, 01:32:30 PM »
Worth noting - for all this talk here and in the media about collusion - "Collusion" is not a federal crime and its legal definition is vague. 
As such, people largely get to decide what their own definition is and make declarations that there is or is no collusion.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #942 on: October 31, 2017, 01:47:55 PM »
So far, it doesn't look like anything in these indictments wasn' already reported by the press.  We already knew manafort worked for the Russians.  We already knew the Trump campaign met with the Russians to try to get emails.  We already knew about the shady real estate deals to launder money.

These things have been out in the open for over a year now.  I feel like we're currently getting last season's reruns on Netflix while the new season is already airing on cable.  We're behind the curve on the current narrative.  There must be so much more in the works that were not seeing yet, based on what's dribbling out today.


Agreed that what we learned yesterday has already been reported. What's significant is that we now have one guilty plea (Papadopoulos) and charges against two members of Trump's upper echelon (Manafort & Gates). No longer can people argue that this is all speculation - official charges have been made. Mueller now also has a ton of leverage extracting information from everyone he talks to.  Whomever cuts a deal now gets reduced sentences - those that lie or take the 5th (Flynn) do so knowing that others are being offered deals (the so called 'prisoner's dilemma')

If we were placing bets my money would be on Michael Flynn being indicted next - he's on record having lied to the FBI and failed to register as a foreign agent. These may be small potatoes and all there is to his criminal transgressions, but its enough to put him behind prison for a few years if he doesn't cooperate.  Taking money from Turkey and failing to initially disclose that could be construed as conspiracy against the US - not something any 3-star general wants on his dossier.

Kurshner will be towards the very end, if Mueller indeed brings charges against him.  Ditto for Sessions. IMO Mueller will want as many signed statements and plea-deals lined up before DJT goes ballistic and starts firing and pardoning left and right.

Just my predictions...

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #943 on: October 31, 2017, 03:22:13 PM »
http://thehill.com/policy/technology/358025-thousands-attended-protest-organized-by-russians-on-facebook

those dam' Russians - LOL

It's clear Russia have been working to incite disruption in the US - as they have been off and on for decades. And, frankly, as the US does to many other governments throughout the world.

As far as I can tell though, only 1 political party paid an ex-Brit spy to pay Russian sources for fake dirt on another candidate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html


Then you're a naive fool

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #944 on: October 31, 2017, 03:30:12 PM »


As far as I can tell though, only 1 political party paid an ex-Brit spy to pay Russian sources for fake dirt on another candidate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html


Apparently not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/us/politics/trump-dossier-paul-singer.html
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #945 on: October 31, 2017, 03:58:31 PM »


As far as I can tell though, only 1 political party paid an ex-Brit spy to pay Russian sources for fake dirt on another candidate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html


Apparently not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/us/politics/trump-dossier-paul-singer.html

Getting people riled up about who paid for the dossier (everyone, apparently) is a great distraction from what it actually said and if it is true. The veracity of it appears to still be in question.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #946 on: October 31, 2017, 04:17:10 PM »


As far as I can tell though, only 1 political party paid an ex-Brit spy to pay Russian sources for fake dirt on another candidate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html


Apparently not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/us/politics/trump-dossier-paul-singer.html

Getting people riled up about who paid for the dossier (everyone, apparently) is a great distraction from what it actually said and if it is true. The veracity of it appears to still be in question.

Yup. Both by the Trump campaign and by career whataboutists who make a religion of blinding themselves to serve their own agendas.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #947 on: October 31, 2017, 04:37:12 PM »
Thank you, acroy for ignoring the points of my post. Troll on.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #948 on: October 31, 2017, 05:33:22 PM »
http://thehill.com/policy/technology/358025-thousands-attended-protest-organized-by-russians-on-facebook

those dam' Russians - LOL

It's clear Russia have been working to incite disruption in the US - as they have been off and on for decades. And, frankly, as the US does to many other governments throughout the world.

As far as I can tell though, only 1 political party paid an ex-Brit spy to pay Russian sources for fake dirt on another candidate.

Yep. The Russians have a long history of meddling in the affairs of other nations. US candidates have historically not cooperated with them, though. US candidates have also usually not staffed with people with strong financial and professional ties to the Kremlin's lackeys.

There is a big difference between funding opposition research to find out what another candidate has done, and coordinating with a foreign nation to illegally steal information from another candidate for political gain, and (it appears increasingly likely) a form of quid pro quo in terms of reducing sanctions against Russia, and weakening US opposition to Russian interests. 

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #949 on: October 31, 2017, 06:38:16 PM »
As far as I can tell though, only 1 political party paid an ex-Brit spy to pay Russian sources for fake dirt on another candidate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html

Are you serious?  Because, really, you need to check what news sources you are using.   Because right now the Russian propagandists have you chalked up as a win.
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