Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 62396 times)

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #600 on: July 11, 2017, 01:07:09 PM »
Could anyone give a solid explanation as to the legal implications of what Donald Jr. has admitted to?

It certainly seems suspicious and dirty but honestly I don't know what is and isn't allowed.

I am no expert but the majority of op-eds I've read so far trend more towards "what he did was contemptible and should have no place in American democracy, might technically along very (very) narrow legal lines have been illegal, even, but probably isn't prosecutable."

Kind of like sharing crucial intel with a non-ally that probably got operatives killed and at a minimum damaged relations with an actual ally who is crucial to our middle east policy. Not technically illegal if the president did it, so it's all good, right?

Anyway, the consensus still seems to be that proof of a cover up is the most likely path towards criminal charges for most of these guys.

Dabnasty

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 212
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #601 on: July 11, 2017, 01:10:23 PM »
Quote
or enciting violence against the free press
tweeting a gif is inciting violence?  I hope you're joking
Twitter is a means of communication, if words can incite violence then so can gifs. More importantly, do you think this is the only instance of Trump inciting violence against the press? calling the media the "enemy of the American people" sounds rather inciteful to me.
Quote
or carny hands
you're body shaming now?
This is not a joke about his hands, it's a joke about his ego. Graydon Carter referred to Trump as "short-fingered" in Spy Magazine in 1988. Since then Trump has periodically mailed pictures of himself to Carter with his hands circled to indicate they are normal sized. He even received one that said "See, not so short" written in gold sharpie just before Trump announced his nomination. 28 years later.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:13:47 PM by Dabnasty »

DarkandStormy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 346
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #602 on: July 11, 2017, 01:22:42 PM »
Could anyone give a solid explanation as to the legal implications of what Donald Jr. has admitted to?

It certainly seems suspicious and dirty but honestly I don't know what is and isn't allowed.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20

Quote
A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election.

Quote
A solicitation is an oral or written communication that, construed as reasonably understood in the context in which it is made, contains a clear message asking, requesting, or recommending that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value.

So almost everyone agrees - he, at the very least, violated campaign finance law.  I think there will need to be something more to prove anything beyond that.  Of course, the investigations are still ongoing.
The Chase Trifecta:
Earn 50,000 Ultimate Rewards points with Chase Sapphire Preferred - $4k spending in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/6/2MOVOLZCEJ
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom Unlimited - only $500 spending needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/18/ENYF0FTS66
Earn a $150 bonus with Chase Freedom - only $500 spending needed in 3 months.
https://www.referyourchasecard.com/2/DBOP9XI9XT

Recommended Cell Servce - Google's Project FI: https://g.co/fi/r/THK0WX

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #603 on: July 11, 2017, 01:36:04 PM »

or sexual assaults
no evidence of this

Except Trump admitted to it. If you want to keep defending sexual assault I doubt you'll last long on these boards and rightfully so.

TornWonder

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #604 on: July 11, 2017, 01:38:41 PM »
Quote
or fraud convictions
Donald Trump has never been convicted of any crime

That's true.  Trump has settled out of court on hundreds of cases to make them go away.  Most recently he settled one of the Trump University lawsuits by paying the plaintiffs 25 million dollars.  Sol should have used:

Quote
or fraud convictions

He has settled a lawsuit, in civil court.  For him to be convicted of a crime, he would have to be tried in a criminal court, which has never happened.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #605 on: July 11, 2017, 01:42:29 PM »
I try not to publicly waste too much time shit talking Trumps family. I don't believe they are as ignorant or potentially mentally ill as Trump himself is. By that standard they appear very normal and maybe even well adjusted. But I do think at this point none of them are worth defending from a political standpoint because it has been made evident that they are 100% loyal to Trump.

His kids, in-laws and his wife all relentlessly cover for him even when their narrative runs counter to the truth staring you right in the face. I kind of get it, its a tough road if your daddy is a public figure and a piece of shit. I can't say I wouldn't roll with it and defend him if I were in their place. I mean why should I give a shit about the American public, the media or the truth over my own father if he treats me well and looks out for me?

But that is exactly the reason none of those people should be in any appointed position of power or influence within our government. Clearly all of his family are too conflicted to act in anyone's interest but their own families.

The only silver lining, for a more left leaning person, that may come out of Trump is that we may actually see a congress willing to cut back on some of the presidential overreached we were all too happy to allow in the Bush and Obama years.

TornWonder

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #606 on: July 11, 2017, 01:47:13 PM »

or sexual assaults
no evidence of this

Except Trump admitted to it. If you want to keep defending sexual assault I doubt you'll last long on these boards and rightfully so.

I'm not defending sexual assault, I'm defending against false accusations.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5342
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #607 on: July 11, 2017, 01:50:05 PM »
Quote
or fraud convictions
Donald Trump has never been convicted of any crime

That's true.  Trump has settled out of court on hundreds of cases to make them go away.  Most recently he settled one of the Trump University lawsuits by paying the plaintiffs 25 million dollars.  Sol should have used:

Quote
or fraud convictions

Trump is guilty of fraud.  Not just settling lawsuits, actually losing lawsuits.  Multiple lawsuits, where a judge declared him guilty.  His supporters claim this doesn't count because it is his family businesses and subsidiaries that have been convicted, not him personally, but I don't see the distinction.

So I comfortably stand by my earlier statement.  Trump is guilty of fraud, and it still doesn't matter at all to his supporters.  Just like it didn't matter when he admitted sexual assault, or colluding with the Russians, or tax evasion, or taking payments from foreign governments, or anything else.

Yep, he tweeted them out.
How fucking stupid is he? Did he really think this would help him? Wow. Or is he assuming the world is as Sol says it is and the Trumps have some sort of teflon immunity?

Trump junior only released the emails because he knew the times was going to do it mere hours later, and it looks better to release incriminating evidence yourself than to have it uncovered by investigative journalists.  He didn't release then to clear himself, he released them as damage control.  Notice the headlines are all "Tump junior releases..." instead of "NYTimes reveals..."

Dabnasty

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 212
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #608 on: July 11, 2017, 01:59:58 PM »
Trump junior only released the emails because he knew the times was going to do it mere hours later, and it looks better to release incriminating evidence yourself than to have it uncovered by investigative journalists.  He didn't release then to clear himself, he released them as damage control.  Notice the headlines are all "Tump junior releases..." instead of "NYTimes reveals..."
And now Trump supporters can say "this can't really be incriminating, no one is that stupid."

Dabnasty

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 212
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #609 on: July 11, 2017, 02:05:09 PM »

or sexual assaults
no evidence of this

Except Trump admitted to it. If you want to keep defending sexual assault I doubt you'll last long on these boards and rightfully so.

I'm not defending sexual assault, I'm defending against false accusations.
So Trump made a false accusation against himself?

OneCoolCat

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 391
  • Age: 30
  • Location: SoFla
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #610 on: July 11, 2017, 02:40:59 PM »
"But Benghazi!"

See how easy that is?  We don't need to worry about

colluding with the Russians
no evidence of this
Quote
or sexual assaults
no evidence of this
Quote
or fraud convictions
Donald Trump has never been convicted of any crime
Quote
or the emolument clause
people that use this as argument against Donald Trump obviously don't understand what it is
Quote
or hidden tax returns
what purpose would releasing them do, would it change your opinion of him to see a clean tax return with no ties to Russian companies, or would you probably still hate him?
Quote
or six bankruptcies
out of hundreds of enterprises he created
Quote
or martial infidelities
at least he got them out of the way before he entered office?
Quote
or demonizing immigrants
only criminal ones
Quote
or voter suppression
of illegal voters
Quote
or enciting violence against the free press
tweeting a gif is inciting violence?  I hope you're joking
Quote
or carny hands
you're body shaming now?

Quote
.  America has decided that all of this is preferable to Hillary Clinton, the world's greatest master criminal.
Make believe offenses are preferable to actual crimes, imagine that.

Quote
Trump could go on Fox and say "of course I colluded with the Russians to beat crooked Hillary, I had to do it to make America great again" and his supporters world lap it up.  They don't care that it's illegal or immoral or that he previously denied it.  Nothing matters anymore.  He's untouchable.
Is there anything Trump could do that would give you a positive opinion of him? If not, aren't you simply the opposite side of the coin you claim to hate.

He could resign from office.
I refinanced my student loans with Sofi from 6.8% to 3.805%.  Use my referral URL for a $100 welcome bonus if you refinance with Sofi:  https://www.sofi.com/refer/234/11233

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #611 on: July 11, 2017, 03:54:19 PM »

or sexual assaults
no evidence of this

Except Trump admitted to it. If you want to keep defending sexual assault I doubt you'll last long on these boards and rightfully so.

I'm not defending sexual assault, I'm defending against false accusations.

You missed the bolded part. Try again?

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #612 on: July 11, 2017, 04:09:39 PM »
He has settled a lawsuit, in civil court.  For him to be convicted of a crime, he would have to be tried in a criminal court, which has never happened.

Quote
.  America has decided that all of this is preferable to Hillary Clinton, the world's greatest master criminal.
Make believe offenses are preferable to actual crimes, imagine that.

Can you point to the criminal court case where Hillary was tried and convicted?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 04:12:37 PM by BeginnerStache »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5342
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #613 on: July 11, 2017, 04:25:16 PM »
He has settled a lawsuit, in civil court.  For him to be convicted of a crime, he would have to be tried in a criminal court, which has never happened.

Quote
.  America has decided that all of this is preferable to Hillary Clinton, the world's greatest master criminal.
Make believe offenses are preferable to actual crimes, imagine that.

Can you point to the criminal court case where Hillary was tried and convicted?

You're banging your head on a brick troll wall.  In the brave new world of Trump's America, Hillary is a criminal without ever appearing in court, but Trump is innocent after literal convictions.

Also, Hillary was working with Russians, Hillary is too old to be president, Hillary is too secretive, Hillary disclosed classified information, Hillary is in the pocket of wall street, and Hillary wants to ruin healthcare.  Not Trump though, he's innocent of all of those charges.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 04:43:15 PM by sol »

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1407
  • Location: MA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #614 on: July 11, 2017, 04:31:58 PM »
Stop trying to convert Trump supporters.  It’s a lost cause.  They belong to a cult.  They would live, die or kill for him I think.  At a certain point, they went all in, and there is no leaving the cult.  Any action of his is justifiable.  They will rationalize away actions that they would disown their own family members for. 

I don’t get it, but I think, at some level, he just “feels” right to these people.  I have a visceral distaste for the man that runs deep, but these people look at him and the things he does and says and they feel warm and happy inside.  I have a hard time even looking at his face (and I think that is part of the appeal too for Trumpers).  They love that he pisses liberals off.

It doesn’t matter what he does, legal or illegal.  It doesn’t matter what his policies are.  It doesn’t even matter that his policies will likely hurt them personally.   The only thing that matters is that he makes them feel better about themselves.  The rest is just irrelevant.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2410
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #615 on: July 11, 2017, 04:47:16 PM »
Stop trying to convert Trump supporters.  It’s a lost cause.  They belong to a cult.  They would live, die or kill for him I think.  At a certain point, they went all in, and there is no leaving the cult.  Any action of his is justifiable.  They will rationalize away actions that they would disown their own family members for. 

I don’t get it, but I think, at some level, he just “feels” right to these people.  I have a visceral distaste for the man that runs deep, but these people look at him and the things he does and says and they feel warm and happy inside.  I have a hard time even looking at his face (and I think that is part of the appeal too for Trumpers).  They love that he pisses liberals off.

It doesn’t matter what he does, legal or illegal.  It doesn’t matter what his policies are.  It doesn’t even matter that his policies will likely hurt them personally.   The only thing that matters is that he makes them feel better about themselves.  The rest is just irrelevant.

Agreed. They wouldn't care if he literally destroyed the country, as long as it pissed liberals off.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5342
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #616 on: July 11, 2017, 05:11:49 PM »
Sure looks like Donald Trump junior is going to jail.

Any bets on how long the presidential pardon takes?

dividendman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Age: 35
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #617 on: July 11, 2017, 05:23:39 PM »
Sure looks like Donald Trump junior is going to jail.

Any bets on how long the presidential pardon takes?

He can pardon preemptively a la Ford/Nixon. I'm surprised he hasn't pardoned his entire family and everyone he likes for everything they may have done already.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8805
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #618 on: July 11, 2017, 06:36:05 PM »
Sure looks like Donald Trump junior is going to jail.

Any bets on how long the presidential pardon takes?

He can pardon preemptively a la Ford/Nixon. I'm surprised he hasn't pardoned his entire family and everyone he likes for everything they may have done already.

He could preemptively pardon himself?

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #619 on: July 11, 2017, 06:51:24 PM »
Kristof's column about the implications of Donald Jr.'s emails are spelled out really well.

"This is also arguably “soft collusion,” acceptance of a foreign power’s interference in an election for one’s own benefit. Whether there was a quid pro quo and “hard collusion,” we’ll have to see. We do have the outlines of a quid pro quo, in which each side was signalling what it wanted: The Trump campaign wanted dirt on the Clintons, and Russia wanted an easing of sanctions if Trump was elected.
After this meeting, the Trumps or the White House denied at least eight times that such a meeting had taken place. That is duplicity on top of collusion."


The Trumps Embraced a Russian Plot
https://nyti.ms/2u4r5t0 via @NickKristof

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6828
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #620 on: July 11, 2017, 08:20:59 PM »
There may be something tangible in this latest brouhaha.  Problem is all the previous "cry wolf" episodes of "this is finally the thing that will bring Trump down" that ultimately evaporated. 

As with any cry wolf situation, sometimes there really is a wolf but too often there isn't.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #621 on: July 11, 2017, 08:47:37 PM »
There may be something tangible in this latest brouhaha.  Problem is all the previous "cry wolf" episodes of "this is finally the thing that will bring Trump down" that ultimately evaporated. 

As with any cry wolf situation, sometimes there really is a wolf but too often there isn't.

I'm sure Trump tries to make things look like wolves merely crying by blocking evidence from being discovered - so he fired Comey.

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6828
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #622 on: July 11, 2017, 08:54:05 PM »
I'm sure Trump tries to make things look like wolves merely crying by blocking evidence from being discovered - so he fired Comey.
How does firing Comey block evidence from being discovered? 

For background, I'm assuming the head of the FBI is analogous to the CEO of some science-based company.  The CEO doesn't personally discover new products, the R&D folks do.  Similarly, the head of the FBI doesn't personally discover evidence, the agents in the FBI do.  I don't have personal knowledge of the FBI's inner workings so that assumption may be incorrect.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1136
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #623 on: July 11, 2017, 10:19:12 PM »
That's a question to ask Trump
Trump to NBC: "When I decided to [fire Comey], I said to myself, you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made up story."

Firing Comey was meant to send a message to the FBI to stop investigating the "made up story."

Maybe the FBI agents you refer to are going to go real slow.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 10:21:27 PM by DavidAnnArbor »

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #624 on: July 12, 2017, 04:31:41 AM »
The FBI director determines which cases to investigate and where the department outlays its resources, not unlike a CEO.  He (or she) could assign an entire task force to investigate someone or something - conversely s/he could reduce or completely eliminate investigative resources.

none of this is to say that the firing of Comey has done this, but one popular explanation for his firing is that DJT wanted the investigation(s) to end.  Trump himself helped fuel this speculation by publically stating that he fired Comey over that "Russia thing".
A more forgiving explanation would be that Trump feels there is nothing there, and felt persecuted by the investigation and decided to end it. But even that explanation implies that he hoped Comey's firing would end the investigation.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 615
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #625 on: July 12, 2017, 09:53:13 AM »
The FBI director determines which cases to investigate and where the department outlays its resources, not unlike a CEO.  He (or she) could assign an entire task force to investigate someone or something - conversely s/he could reduce or completely eliminate investigative resources.

none of this is to say that the firing of Comey has done this, but one popular explanation for his firing is that DJT wanted the investigation(s) to end.  Trump himself helped fuel this speculation by publically stating that he fired Comey over that "Russia thing".
A more forgiving explanation would be that Trump feels there is nothing there, and felt persecuted by the investigation and decided to end it. But even that explanation implies that he hoped Comey's firing would end the investigation.

I think Trump had a good case to fire Comey. He willingly came out and told the world that Clinton wasn't under investigation... for whatever reason. He refused to do the same thing for Trump when he wasn't under investigation... seeming to want the speculation to continue to damage Trump.

Anyway, looks like Donny JR is in hot water. If he is guilty, I hope he is punished to the full extent of the law, along with anyone else who was directly and provably involved. As far as I'm concerned, trump has accomplished the mission I had in mind - ending Hillary Clinton's political career. Impeach the fucker for all I care now.

Also, I would agree that almost all of Trumps support centers around how much he pisses liberals off. Look at the headlines on shitbart: "obama FURIOUS this or that" etc. If he were to back off on the controversy, he'd loose this support.




Inaya

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #626 on: July 12, 2017, 10:15:36 AM »
The FBI director determines which cases to investigate and where the department outlays its resources, not unlike a CEO.  He (or she) could assign an entire task force to investigate someone or something - conversely s/he could reduce or completely eliminate investigative resources.

none of this is to say that the firing of Comey has done this, but one popular explanation for his firing is that DJT wanted the investigation(s) to end.  Trump himself helped fuel this speculation by publically stating that he fired Comey over that "Russia thing".
A more forgiving explanation would be that Trump feels there is nothing there, and felt persecuted by the investigation and decided to end it. But even that explanation implies that he hoped Comey's firing would end the investigation.

I think Trump had a good case to fire Comey. He willingly came out and told the world that Clinton wasn't under investigation... for whatever reason. He refused to do the same thing for Trump when he wasn't under investigation... seeming to want the speculation to continue to damage Trump.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the difference is Clinton wasn't under investigation, and there was minimal chance that she would be after that point. Whereas with Trump, the odds of him subsequently becoming the subject of an investigation were/are much, much higher. Saying Trump wasn't under investigation and then having him come under investigation would have been a huge problem.
My Cleverly Titled Journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/cleverly-titled-journal/
My Cat's Facebook Page (yes, really): www.facebook.com/chicagotau
Tau now has an Instagram: www.instagram.com/chicagotau or #chicagotau
Ting referral ($25 credit!): https://zds8505smfe.ting.com/
Discover Card referral ($50 now and $50 after your first year! and free credit monitoring): https://refer.discover.com/s/gv3ma

dividendman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Age: 35
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #627 on: July 12, 2017, 10:17:41 AM »
I'm sure Trump tries to make things look like wolves merely crying by blocking evidence from being discovered - so he fired Comey.
How does firing Comey block evidence from being discovered? 

For background, I'm assuming the head of the FBI is analogous to the CEO of some science-based company.  The CEO doesn't personally discover new products, the R&D folks do.  Similarly, the head of the FBI doesn't personally discover evidence, the agents in the FBI do.  I don't have personal knowledge of the FBI's inner workings so that assumption may be incorrect.

Also, anyone with half a brain (which, unfortunately, the US President lacks) would have known that firing the FBI director would bring MORE scrutiny, not less.

However, I'm starting to be swayed by the argument that Trump is just a dummy (along with a sexual predator and a liar, etc.) and he really didn't do anything knowingly with Russia, but his entire campaign staff, close advisers, and family, were basically owned by Russia.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2410
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #628 on: July 12, 2017, 10:34:44 AM »
The FBI director determines which cases to investigate and where the department outlays its resources, not unlike a CEO.  He (or she) could assign an entire task force to investigate someone or something - conversely s/he could reduce or completely eliminate investigative resources.

none of this is to say that the firing of Comey has done this, but one popular explanation for his firing is that DJT wanted the investigation(s) to end.  Trump himself helped fuel this speculation by publically stating that he fired Comey over that "Russia thing".
A more forgiving explanation would be that Trump feels there is nothing there, and felt persecuted by the investigation and decided to end it. But even that explanation implies that he hoped Comey's firing would end the investigation.

I think Trump had a good case to fire Comey. He willingly came out and told the world that Clinton wasn't under investigation... for whatever reason. He refused to do the same thing for Trump when he wasn't under investigation... seeming to want the speculation to continue to damage Trump.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the difference is Clinton wasn't under investigation, and there was minimal chance that she would be after that point. Whereas with Trump, the odds of him subsequently becoming the subject of an investigation were/are much, much higher. Saying Trump wasn't under investigation and then having him come under investigation would have been a huge problem.

Exactly. As Comey himself stated. The investigation into Clinton was pretty much done. The Trump campaign investigations were just beginning, and as he said during the hearings, the FBI is very wary of saying someone is not under investigation, because of the subsequent obligation to correct such a statement creates if further down the road the situation changes.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2410
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #629 on: July 12, 2017, 11:19:12 AM »
Huh.

Quite a "coincidence."
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

redbirdfan

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 81
  • Location: Seattle
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #630 on: July 12, 2017, 09:45:47 PM »
I highly doubt that Trump didn't know about the meeting.  His son, son-in-law and campaign manager had the meeting in the same place where Trump lived and worked at the time.  I would be shocked if the Secret Service didn't have to clear everyone who entered Trump Tower to meet with Trump, Jr. and/or the campaign manager.  Even if Jr., Manafort and Kushner ALL somehow initially forgot about the meeting AND the email chain I cannot believe that they were not reminded of the just-released email chain after: 1) the DNC was hacked and the emails were leaked; 2) Podesta's emails were hacked; 3) Wikileaks started dumping emails right after the Access Hollywood tape broke.  Keep in mind that Trump stated that Chris Christie had to know about Bridgegate because those closely associated with him orchestrated it/knew about it. 

http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/262394-trump-christie-totally-knew-about-bridgegate


I am (or was) a moderate Republican and am amazed, shocked and saddened that the party is tying itself in knots to deny the obvious.  Who gives a damn if any of this was technically illegal.  The bar for ethics, patriotism and civility should not be at the front door of a prison.  This administration has spent the last year feigning ignorance and outrage about the mere possibility that there was any collusion.  Now the party line seems to be that collusion isn't a crime and anyone would be remiss not to do opposition research with an adversarial foreign government.  We are well past the looking glass here.  No tax cuts, healthcare reform or Supreme Court justice is worth this.  The fact that this is up for debate shows that we have already lost. 

former player

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
  • Location: Avalon
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #631 on: July 13, 2017, 01:24:53 AM »
I highly doubt that Trump didn't know about the meeting.  His son, son-in-law and campaign manager had the meeting in the same place where Trump lived and worked at the time.  I would be shocked if the Secret Service didn't have to clear everyone who entered Trump Tower to meet with Trump, Jr. and/or the campaign manager.  Even if Jr., Manafort and Kushner ALL somehow initially forgot about the meeting AND the email chain I cannot believe that they were not reminded of the just-released email chain after: 1) the DNC was hacked and the emails were leaked; 2) Podesta's emails were hacked; 3) Wikileaks started dumping emails right after the Access Hollywood tape broke.  Keep in mind that Trump stated that Chris Christie had to know about Bridgegate because those closely associated with him orchestrated it/knew about it. 

http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/262394-trump-christie-totally-knew-about-bridgegate


I am (or was) a moderate Republican and am amazed, shocked and saddened that the party is tying itself in knots to deny the obvious.  Who gives a damn if any of this was technically illegal.  The bar for ethics, patriotism and civility should not be at the front door of a prison.  This administration has spent the last year feigning ignorance and outrage about the mere possibility that there was any collusion.  Now the party line seems to be that collusion isn't a crime and anyone would be remiss not to do opposition research with an adversarial foreign government.  We are well past the looking glass here.  No tax cuts, healthcare reform or Supreme Court justice is worth this.  The fact that this is up for debate shows that we have already lost.
Post of the day.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2410
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #632 on: July 13, 2017, 06:04:55 AM »
I highly doubt that Trump didn't know about the meeting.  His son, son-in-law and campaign manager had the meeting in the same place where Trump lived and worked at the time.  I would be shocked if the Secret Service didn't have to clear everyone who entered Trump Tower to meet with Trump, Jr. and/or the campaign manager.  Even if Jr., Manafort and Kushner ALL somehow initially forgot about the meeting AND the email chain I cannot believe that they were not reminded of the just-released email chain after: 1) the DNC was hacked and the emails were leaked; 2) Podesta's emails were hacked; 3) Wikileaks started dumping emails right after the Access Hollywood tape broke.  Keep in mind that Trump stated that Chris Christie had to know about Bridgegate because those closely associated with him orchestrated it/knew about it. 

http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/262394-trump-christie-totally-knew-about-bridgegate


I am (or was) a moderate Republican and am amazed, shocked and saddened that the party is tying itself in knots to deny the obvious.  Who gives a damn if any of this was technically illegal.  The bar for ethics, patriotism and civility should not be at the front door of a prison.  This administration has spent the last year feigning ignorance and outrage about the mere possibility that there was any collusion.  Now the party line seems to be that collusion isn't a crime and anyone would be remiss not to do opposition research with an adversarial foreign government.  We are well past the looking glass here.  No tax cuts, healthcare reform or Supreme Court justice is worth this.  The fact that this is up for debate shows that we have already lost.

Perfectly stated, redbirdfan.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #633 on: July 14, 2017, 08:35:07 PM »
...
I am (or was) a moderate Republican and am amazed, shocked and saddened that the party is tying itself in knots to deny the obvious.  Who gives a damn if any of this was technically illegal.  The bar for ethics, patriotism and civility should not be at the front door of a prison.  This administration has spent the last year feigning ignorance and outrage about the mere possibility that there was any collusion.  Now the party line seems to be that collusion isn't a crime and anyone would be remiss not to do opposition research with an adversarial foreign government.  We are well past the looking glass here.  No tax cuts, healthcare reform or Supreme Court justice is worth this.  The fact that this is up for debate shows that we have already lost.

Great post redbirdfan.  I'm constantly wondering how those who lined up behind DJT after the convention around this time last year can come to terms with the wrenching turns he has led them through.  Colluding with Russian operatives is now something 'most anyone would do'. Medicaid has gone from something we need to protect to something we must shred. He'd appoint a special prosecutor to indite HRC his first week of office because she was the most crooked politician perhaps in history, but now apparently she never was that bad....
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5342
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #634 on: July 14, 2017, 09:52:44 PM »
He'd appoint a special prosecutor to indite HRC his first week of office because she was the most crooked politician perhaps in history, but now apparently she never was that bad....

Ironic that after calling for a special prosecutor to investigate Clinton, as soon as the election is over he admits she never actually did anything illegal, and now we have a special prosecutor (appointed by Republicans, no less) investigating Trump, instead.

But this is classic Trump.  He knows he colluded with the Russians, so he attacked Clinton for her ties to Russia.  He knows his charity is a fraud (and here I use the technical legal meaning of the word), so he attacked the Clinton foundation for being crooked.  He knows he's the oldest person ever elected to be President, in the entire history of the country, so he attacked Clinton's health and called her too frail.  He knows his immigrant wife worked illegally in the US, so he attacked illegal immigrants.  He knows he dodged the draft thee times, so he claimed to be the only candidate who supported the military.  He knows he's publicly cheated on his wives before being multiply divorced, so he attacked the Clinton family's values.  Every single weakness he has a candidate, he has instead turned into an attack ad on his opponents.

Face it folks, he a world class con man.  All fluff, no substance.  Why do you think congressional republicans are running away from him so fast?

On the bright side, now that he's in office I'm glad he's too teflon for anything to stick.  Impeachment would be a godsend for the conservatives because it would get ride of the single biggest obstacle to enacting their agenda.  I hope Trump keeps on keeping on being Trump, making fun of disabled people, calling women fat and stupid, bragging about pussy grabbing, praising the Russians, taking payments from foreign governments, pushing that Mexico wall, crying about healthcare, the works.  He's like a liberal Manchurian Candidate, sabotaging the tea party from the inside by pretending to be their most stalwart champion.

deadlymonkey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #635 on: July 17, 2017, 07:38:36 AM »
He'd appoint a special prosecutor to indite HRC his first week of office because she was the most crooked politician perhaps in history, but now apparently she never was that bad....

Ironic that after calling for a special prosecutor to investigate Clinton, as soon as the election is over he admits she never actually did anything illegal, and now we have a special prosecutor (appointed by Republicans, no less) investigating Trump, instead.

But this is classic Trump.  He knows he colluded with the Russians, so he attacked Clinton for her ties to Russia.  He knows his charity is a fraud (and here I use the technical legal meaning of the word), so he attacked the Clinton foundation for being crooked.  He knows he's the oldest person ever elected to be President, in the entire history of the country, so he attacked Clinton's health and called her too frail.  He knows his immigrant wife worked illegally in the US, so he attacked illegal immigrants.  He knows he dodged the draft thee times, so he claimed to be the only candidate who supported the military.  He knows he's publicly cheated on his wives before being multiply divorced, so he attacked the Clinton family's values.  Every single weakness he has a candidate, he has instead turned into an attack ad on his opponents.

Face it folks, he a world class con man.  All fluff, no substance.  Why do you think congressional republicans are running away from him so fast?

On the bright side, now that he's in office I'm glad he's too teflon for anything to stick.  Impeachment would be a godsend for the conservatives because it would get ride of the single biggest obstacle to enacting their agenda.  I hope Trump keeps on keeping on being Trump, making fun of disabled people, calling women fat and stupid, bragging about pussy grabbing, praising the Russians, taking payments from foreign governments, pushing that Mexico wall, crying about healthcare, the works.  He's like a liberal Manchurian Candidate, sabotaging the tea party from the inside by pretending to be their most stalwart champion.

We don't agree on a lot, but I agree wit you on this.  If Trump is out and Pence survives the fallout or worst case scenario, Paul Ryan steps up then it is all aboard the conservative fail train.  Let Trump limp along until at least 2018 after the Left recovers the house and senate.

Unique User

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #636 on: July 18, 2017, 09:30:00 AM »
He'd appoint a special prosecutor to indite HRC his first week of office because she was the most crooked politician perhaps in history, but now apparently she never was that bad....

Ironic that after calling for a special prosecutor to investigate Clinton, as soon as the election is over he admits she never actually did anything illegal, and now we have a special prosecutor (appointed by Republicans, no less) investigating Trump, instead.

But this is classic Trump.  He knows he colluded with the Russians, so he attacked Clinton for her ties to Russia.  He knows his charity is a fraud (and here I use the technical legal meaning of the word), so he attacked the Clinton foundation for being crooked.  He knows he's the oldest person ever elected to be President, in the entire history of the country, so he attacked Clinton's health and called her too frail.  He knows his immigrant wife worked illegally in the US, so he attacked illegal immigrants.  He knows he dodged the draft thee times, so he claimed to be the only candidate who supported the military.  He knows he's publicly cheated on his wives before being multiply divorced, so he attacked the Clinton family's values.  Every single weakness he has a candidate, he has instead turned into an attack ad on his opponents.

Face it folks, he a world class con man.  All fluff, no substance.  Why do you think congressional republicans are running away from him so fast?

On the bright side, now that he's in office I'm glad he's too teflon for anything to stick.  Impeachment would be a godsend for the conservatives because it would get ride of the single biggest obstacle to enacting their agenda.  I hope Trump keeps on keeping on being Trump, making fun of disabled people, calling women fat and stupid, bragging about pussy grabbing, praising the Russians, taking payments from foreign governments, pushing that Mexico wall, crying about healthcare, the works.  He's like a liberal Manchurian Candidate, sabotaging the tea party from the inside by pretending to be their most stalwart champion.

We don't agree on a lot, but I agree wit you on this.  If Trump is out and Pence survives the fallout or worst case scenario, Paul Ryan steps up then it is all aboard the conservative fail train.  Let Trump limp along until at least 2018 after the Left recovers the house and senate.

If Trump is out, the GOP will be so damaged they will not be able to enact anything.  I do agree the longer it drags on, the closer we get to  mid-terms.  That said, as fast as this thing is going, I'll be surprised if Trump is still in by early 2018

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #637 on: July 18, 2017, 10:00:00 AM »

If Trump is out, the GOP will be so damaged they will not be able to enact anything.  I do agree the longer it drags on, the closer we get to  mid-terms.  That said, as fast as this thing is going, I'll be surprised if Trump is still in by early 2018

I have a high degree of confidence that Trump will last through the midterms.  Here's why
Forcing him our will involve drafting articles of impeachment, BUT those articles must come from the House (currently controlled by the GOP) and by precedence would be drafted by the House Oversight Committee (chaired by Gowdy - R/SC).
Nothing to date has shown that the House is willing to tolerate articles of impeachment so far - suggesting we'd need something substantially more damning to go down this route so long as the GOP holds the majority.  What that could be I'd only hazard a guess.

Even if articles were drafted, it would be followed by months of high-drama testomonies and a trial, none of which the GOP wants.  They'll avoid this at all costs, up and until it become apparent that NOT doing so will cost them their seats.  Unfortunately, too many are in such ridiculously safe districts that there's no reason for them to set fire to their own boat while they're still in it.

Trump could quit and resign, but this seems unlike too - while he's been infurated by circumstances thus far he seems to adore the title and is convinced not only that he's done nothing wrong, but that everything would be "great" if people would just do what he says.

The wildcard is still Mueller, and DJT's team seems busy laying the groundwork to discredit him already.  FBI investigations though typically take upwards of a few years, and we're on month 2.  Plus, the huge scope of this investigation on so many fronts suggests it will take longer than other investigations. Even if Mueller has found criminal wrongdoing the indictments won't come out until the end when he's confident he's learned all he can from the investigative portion. I don't expect to hear anything from Mueller until 2018 at the earliest.

Interestingly, I think the most probable scenario is a strong GOP challenger to the incumbent DJT during the 2020 primary. This is something we haven't seen in over a generation - Buchanan held a lackluster challenge to H.W. in 92, but the last time a GOP seriously challenged the incumbent president was Reagan in 1980.  I think this scenario will become much more likely should the GOP lose the house in 2018 and with it whatever ability they could have had to draft legislation in committee and get sent to the WH.
If this happens get ready for a stream of attack ads from within the GOP about how Trump has been a false republican, and all the counter-punching we saw during the 2016 GOP primary taken up a new level.  DJT demands loyalty above all else, so any factions that challenge him will become 'the enemy' with no holds barred. Maybe the GOP will split, which I wouldn't necessarily consider a bad thing (indeed, I think it would be great if both the Dems and Reps split into 2 or more parties). 
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #638 on: July 18, 2017, 11:39:26 AM »

If Trump is out, the GOP will be so damaged they will not be able to enact anything.  I do agree the longer it drags on, the closer we get to  mid-terms.  That said, as fast as this thing is going, I'll be surprised if Trump is still in by early 2018

I have a high degree of confidence that Trump will last through the midterms.  Here's why
Forcing him our will involve drafting articles of impeachment, BUT those articles must come from the House (currently controlled by the GOP) and by precedence would be drafted by the House Oversight Committee (chaired by Gowdy - R/SC).
Nothing to date has shown that the House is willing to tolerate articles of impeachment so far - suggesting we'd need something substantially more damning to go down this route so long as the GOP holds the majority.  What that could be I'd only hazard a guess.

Even if articles were drafted, it would be followed by months of high-drama testomonies and a trial, none of which the GOP wants.  They'll avoid this at all costs, up and until it become apparent that NOT doing so will cost them their seats.  Unfortunately, too many are in such ridiculously safe districts that there's no reason for them to set fire to their own boat while they're still in it.

Trump could quit and resign, but this seems unlike too - while he's been infurated by circumstances thus far he seems to adore the title and is convinced not only that he's done nothing wrong, but that everything would be "great" if people would just do what he says.

The wildcard is still Mueller, and DJT's team seems busy laying the groundwork to discredit him already.  FBI investigations though typically take upwards of a few years, and we're on month 2.  Plus, the huge scope of this investigation on so many fronts suggests it will take longer than other investigations. Even if Mueller has found criminal wrongdoing the indictments won't come out until the end when he's confident he's learned all he can from the investigative portion. I don't expect to hear anything from Mueller until 2018 at the earliest.

Interestingly, I think the most probable scenario is a strong GOP challenger to the incumbent DJT during the 2020 primary. This is something we haven't seen in over a generation - Buchanan held a lackluster challenge to H.W. in 92, but the last time a GOP seriously challenged the incumbent president was Reagan in 1980.  I think this scenario will become much more likely should the GOP lose the house in 2018 and with it whatever ability they could have had to draft legislation in committee and get sent to the WH.
If this happens get ready for a stream of attack ads from within the GOP about how Trump has been a false republican, and all the counter-punching we saw during the 2016 GOP primary taken up a new level.  DJT demands loyalty above all else, so any factions that challenge him will become 'the enemy' with no holds barred. Maybe the GOP will split, which I wouldn't necessarily consider a bad thing (indeed, I think it would be great if both the Dems and Reps split into 2 or more parties).

I feel like this is a careful what you wish for proposition, but I still think it would be hilarious if Dwayne Johnson ran against him in the Republican primary.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #639 on: July 18, 2017, 11:59:25 AM »
Is "the rock" a republican?
It would be a curious spectacle though.  What's DJT going to argue, that he lacks sufficient experience?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6828
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #640 on: July 18, 2017, 12:07:33 PM »
...he lacks sufficient experience?
One can make a reasonable case that nobody has sufficient experience.  Some state governors may have the most - a combination of leadership responsibility and the need to negotiate with a legislative body.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #641 on: July 18, 2017, 12:13:49 PM »
Well the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal*  has called on Trump, his family members and his staff to release every detail of all meetings with Russian officials, as well as his tax returns, concluding: If there really is nothing to the Russia collusion allegations, transparency will prove it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trumps-and-the-truth-1500332545

 * Many consider the WSJ to be a conservative leaning, "real news" organization.  Just sayin'.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #642 on: July 18, 2017, 12:18:02 PM »
...he lacks sufficient experience?
One can make a reasonable case that nobody has sufficient experience.  Some state governors may have the most - a combination of leadership responsibility and the need to negotiate with a legislative body.

Yes, experience falls along a spectrum, and few (save perhaps past presidents still eligible, e.g. G.H.W.B) can claim sufficient experience.
The point I was making though was that DJT ran precisely on how he was an 'outsider' and NOT a career politician.  Johnson presents an interesting hypothetical twist since he, too, would have no political experience nor ties to Washington "insiders". 
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6828
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #643 on: July 18, 2017, 12:26:47 PM »
The point I was making though was that DJT ran precisely on how he was an 'outsider' and NOT a career politician.  Johnson presents an interesting hypothetical twist since he, too, would have no political experience nor ties to Washington "insiders".
Yes, agreed with all that.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #644 on: July 18, 2017, 01:36:09 PM »
Is there anything Trump could do that would give you a positive opinion of him?  If not, aren't you simply the opposite side of the coin you claim to hate.

You should ask yourself the flip question, is there anything he could do to make you dislike him?

zoltani

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 932
  • Location: PNW
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #645 on: July 18, 2017, 01:47:45 PM »
I thought this was a pretty good breakdown of the entire russia scandal up to this point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNCQMWwOZUw

The really damning, and potentially frightening thing, revolves around Paul Manafort's ties to Putin and an agenda on furthering Putin's policies abroad. He has been responsible for putting pro-putin leaders in office in other countires.

“We are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the Putin Government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitment to success,” Manafort wrote in the 2005 memo to Deripaska. The effort, Manafort wrote, “will be offering a great service that can re-focus, both internally and externally, the policies of the Putin government.”


I think that trump is simply a Useful Idiot.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:49:19 PM by zoltani »
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #646 on: July 18, 2017, 02:09:19 PM »
I thought this was a pretty good breakdown of the entire russia scandal up to this point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNCQMWwOZUw

The really damning, and potentially frightening thing, revolves around Paul Manafort's ties to Putin and an agenda on furthering Putin's policies abroad. He has been responsible for putting pro-putin leaders in office in other countires.

“We are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the Putin Government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitment to success,” Manafort wrote in the 2005 memo to Deripaska. The effort, Manafort wrote, “will be offering a great service that can re-focus, both internally and externally, the policies of the Putin government.”


I think that trump is simply a Useful Idiot.

Yes and and he is just a generally morally corrupt business person. He is happy to do anything he can get away with for the Russian government if it helps him do business there.

And Putin is happy to oblige as long as having an pliable US president is useful. Russia has already gain a great deal. In 6 months US leadership among powerful Western countries has lessened and confidence among relevant NATO nations in our leadership is at an all time low. That in itself is a massive win even if congress prevented Trump from making any real policy changes.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #647 on: July 18, 2017, 03:19:43 PM »

I think that trump is simply a Useful Idiot.

IDK if Trump is the "Useful Idiot" or not - but should we really be surprised that someone with absolutely no political experience is being outfoxed by someone who's spent two decades as a world leader and before that was a high ranking counter-intelligence officer in the  KGB?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5342
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #648 on: July 18, 2017, 04:19:21 PM »

I think that trump is simply a Useful Idiot.

IDK if Trump is the "Useful Idiot" or not - but should we really be surprised that someone with absolutely no political experience is being outfoxed by someone who's spent two decades as a world leader and before that was a high ranking counter-intelligence officer in the  KGB?

I thought he was a master negotiator!  He even wrote a book about the art of the deal that I'm SURE Putin hasn't read.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6330
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #649 on: July 18, 2017, 04:37:32 PM »

I think that trump is simply a Useful Idiot.

IDK if Trump is the "Useful Idiot" or not - but should we really be surprised that someone with absolutely no political experience is being outfoxed by someone who's spent two decades as a world leader and before that was a high ranking counter-intelligence officer in the  KGB?

I thought he was a master negotiator!  He even wrote a book about the art of the deal that I'm SURE Putin hasn't read.

Yeah, and I can take Floyd Mayweather in a fight.  After all, I've seen at least half of the Rocky movies...
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"