Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 62866 times)

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 617
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #400 on: May 16, 2017, 04:54:26 PM »
I'd be willing to be a 'memo' of the same meeting will magically appear in the White House as well, with a conflicting account.  Probably using less than 140 characters and mention the electoral college win, of course.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5348
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #401 on: May 16, 2017, 05:02:32 PM »
More fuel for the fire. Comey memo states Trump asked him to stop his investigation of Flynn:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/16/us/politics/james-comey-trump-flynn-russia-investigation.html?utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange_article

I would think this would be grounds for impeachment, since Trump is trying to shut down the Russian/Trump investigation using the power of his presidency.

You might think that, if you mistakenly believed in the preservation of American political norms.  Trump has upended that apple cart.  Obstruction of justice is fine.  Sexual assault is fine.  Nepotism is fine.  Facts don't exist.  Black is white and up is down.

He's making America great again, by destroying everything it stands for.  He's bringing back jobs by offshoring.  He's balancing the budget by cutting taxes.  He's protecting America's secrets by telling them to the Russians.  He respects women more than anyone, because he grabs pussies.  Mexico is paying for the wall, which is why he asked congress to fund it.  The Muslim ban was not a Muslim ban, but is totally working because it was blocked.  He's saving healthcare by taking healthcare away from 24 million Americans.

Next up:  standing up for blue collar Americans by giving a massive tax cut to the wealthy.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #402 on: May 16, 2017, 05:04:12 PM »
I'd be willing to be a 'memo' of the same meeting will magically appear in the White House as well, with a conflicting account.  Probably using less than 140 characters and mention the electoral college win, of course.

Possibly, but per the NYT article: "An F.B.I. agentís contemporaneous notes are widely held up in court as credible evidence of conversations." Not so sure an unverifiable document from the WH would be treated the same. I am starting to think there finally is clear-cut grounds for impeachment, but as the article below details, I doubt it will happen unless Dems take over the midterms, and even then he might be impeached but still not removed from office.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/even-the-biggest-scandals-cant-kill-party-loyalty/

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 617
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #403 on: May 16, 2017, 05:25:07 PM »
Quote
Possibly, but per the NYT article: "An F.B.I. agentís contemporaneous notes are widely held up in court as credible evidence of conversations." Not so sure an unverifiable document from the WH would be treated the same. I am starting to think there finally is clear-cut grounds for impeachment, but as the article below details, I doubt it will happen unless Dems take over the midterms, and even then he might be impeached but still not removed from office.

That may be the case if you assume that nothing else is going to happen that amounts to grounds for impeachment.  Given that we see a new impeachable offense almost every day (or so it seems), that might change fast.

I am more worried that he will fear impeachment enough that his enablers decide to make a grab for power - wrap themselves in the flag, arrest opponents, promote willing generals (most wouldn't but I'm sure some would, as always).  Suddenly dissent and opposition become life threatening choices, and then it is too late.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #404 on: May 16, 2017, 06:18:04 PM »
Quote
Possibly, but per the NYT article: "An F.B.I. agentís contemporaneous notes are widely held up in court as credible evidence of conversations." Not so sure an unverifiable document from the WH would be treated the same. I am starting to think there finally is clear-cut grounds for impeachment, but as the article below details, I doubt it will happen unless Dems take over the midterms, and even then he might be impeached but still not removed from office.

That may be the case if you assume that nothing else is going to happen that amounts to grounds for impeachment.  Given that we see a new impeachable offense almost every day (or so it seems), that might change fast.

As much as I think this is a total s**t show, I'm not sure that this alone would do it... According to Comey's notes, Trump said "I hope you can let this go" - like many DJT statements it leaves just enough room to wiggle out of.  It can be argued this wasn't an order or a threat, much int he way that me saying to an officer "gee, could you give me a warning instead of a ticket?"...

From the WaPo article:
Quote from: Barak Cohen
Thereís definitely a case to be made for obstruction. But, on the other hand, you have to realize that ó as with any other sort of criminal law ó intent is key, and intent here can be difficult to prove.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8837
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #405 on: May 16, 2017, 06:38:56 PM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #406 on: May 16, 2017, 08:52:56 PM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #407 on: May 17, 2017, 05:15:40 AM »
I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.
I'm genuinely curious - for those that believe so much of the news is fake and intentionally trying to harm Trump - what do they think the motivation is?  Ratings? To get Trump replaced with Pence (and if so why would that be better for 'the media')?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1024
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #408 on: May 17, 2017, 05:23:16 AM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.

Yes it's all fake news. What about Clinton, Obama and Benghazi? ( :

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #409 on: May 17, 2017, 07:18:04 AM »
Trump has upended that apple cart. 

In addition to Trump upending the apple cart, I think Mitch McConnell and other Republicans that are putting party first, rather than the country first, are also to blame here. The scorched earth politics of the Republicans in the Senate and the House have been responsible for not allowing the debt limit to increase under Obama, refusing to allow Obama to have a confirmation hearing for Merrick Garland, and now for rushing through an ill-conceived health insurance replacement for Obamacare/ACA are but just some examples. We can also talk about extreme gerrymandering in states like Michigan, Wisconsin, Texas, and others. The anti-intellectualism and double-speak of the Republican party up and down is appalling and disingenuous. Bottom line for these people is the ends justify the means, democracy can be thrown under the bus - which is apparent when all they care about is investigating the leakers of Trump's obstruction of the FBI investigations rather than caring about the way Russia has subverted the federal election and whether there was collusion with the Trump campaign.

Inaya

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1278
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #410 on: May 17, 2017, 07:46:09 AM »
I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.
I'm genuinely curious - for those that believe so much of the news is fake and intentionally trying to harm Trump - what do they think the motivation is?  Ratings? To get Trump replaced with Pence (and if so why would that be better for 'the media')?
I think they think the motivation is to (somehow?) pull down Trump and install Hillary in his place. For the most part they're still super fixated on "She lost get over it!" Which tells me they're still fixated on her having lost. They're so fixated on that, they are (probably wilfully) completely blind to the present.
My Cleverly Titled Journal: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/cleverly-titled-journal/
My Cat's Facebook Page (yes, really): www.facebook.com/chicagotau
Tau now has an Instagram: www.instagram.com/chicagotau or #chicagotau
Ting referral ($25 credit!): https://zds8505smfe.ting.com/
Discover Card referral ($50 now and $50 after your first year! and free credit monitoring): https://refer.discover.com/s/gv3ma

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #411 on: May 17, 2017, 08:11:01 AM »
I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.
I'm genuinely curious - for those that believe so much of the news is fake and intentionally trying to harm Trump - what do they think the motivation is?  Ratings? To get Trump replaced with Pence (and if so why would that be better for 'the media')?
I think they think the motivation is to (somehow?) pull down Trump and install Hillary in his place. For the most part they're still super fixated on "She lost get over it!" Which tells me they're still fixated on her having lost. They're so fixated on that, they are (probably wilfully) completely blind to the present.

Oh, for God's sake...
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Dabnasty

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 216
  • Age: 28
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #412 on: May 17, 2017, 08:43:13 AM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 

So if you don't trust mainstream media two questions:

1) What are your sources of information?
2) Do you still watch any news that you would consider MSM?

Johnez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 592
  • Location: Southern California
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #413 on: May 17, 2017, 12:59:32 PM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.

There's your problem. The .00001% of voters who post on articles aren't representative of the whole. It's a bubble. Have you ever noticed in comment sections there are certain regulars that are called out? Not necessarily the trolls, just the blind parrots who have their single issue (immigration or voter ID for example).

Trump voter isn't a coal roller, nor a raving or secret racist, nor a 4chan troll, nor an inflammatory commenter. You guys are blind to them, and it's not even the media's fault. It's sad really. Trump voters are regular blue collar people. Keep responding to the straw men though if the circle jerk feels good. If you feel this way about half of America, there's really no hope.




DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #414 on: May 17, 2017, 01:18:18 PM »
Yes I meet Trump voters all the time, they are everyday people. I think they're misinformed, but that's my opinion. Many are religiously conservative, or are blue collar and white collar workers who feel that Trump will "drain the swamp" of corrupt politicians, or believe the lies fed by Trump that Hillary's email server at home was a reckless way to handle classified information. Nevermind that Trump just divulged such information to the Russian spymaster, Ambassador Sergey Kislyak, putting in the field secret assets at severe risk.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #415 on: May 17, 2017, 01:57:49 PM »
There's your problem. The .00001% of voters who post on articles aren't representative of the whole. It's a bubble. Have you ever noticed in comment sections there are certain regulars that are called out? Not necessarily the trolls, just the blind parrots who have their single issue (immigration or voter ID for example).

Trump voter isn't a coal roller, nor a raving or secret racist, nor a 4chan troll, nor an inflammatory commenter. You guys are blind to them, and it's not even the media's fault. It's sad really. Trump voters are regular blue collar people. Keep responding to the straw men though if the circle jerk feels good. If you feel this way about half of America, there's really no hope.

Nah, I am well aware of, and openly sympathetic to the plight of most Trump supporters, as has been documented thoroughly by many of my other posts on this board. You, however, appear to be pigeonholing everyone who opposes Trump into the same narrowly defined category. You might want to take your own advice.

ETA - Even if we accept your premise completely, I have yet to see a defense of Trump by this supposed 99.9999% of his supporters that is not a part of Kris' list, or at best a litany of past grievances against the major parties (hell, we can even just keep it DNC focused if you like). Yes, those grievances are often legitimate, but they are still irrelevant to whether or not Trump's behavior being discussed here is defensible.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 02:57:58 PM by Lagom »

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #416 on: May 17, 2017, 04:07:51 PM »
Wow, a special prosecutor has been named - Robert Mueller, former FBI director. This just got interesting. I suppose we'll (presumably?) find out our answers now, sooner or later. How those answers are spun by each side remains to be seen.

ETA - The Atlantic on why a special prosecutor is not necessarily the best way to determine malfeasance in this sort of scenario:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/a-special-prosecutor-is-not-the-answer/526662/
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 04:15:39 PM by Lagom »

Fireball

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 144
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #417 on: May 17, 2017, 04:30:50 PM »
Wow, a special prosecutor has been named - Robert Mueller, former FBI director. This just got interesting. I suppose we'll (presumably?) find out our answers now, sooner or later. How those answers are spun by each side remains to be seen.

ETA - The Atlantic on why a special prosecutor is not necessarily the best way to determine malfeasance in this sort of scenario:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/a-special-prosecutor-is-not-the-answer/526662/

Potentially good news. I just have this feeling Rosenstein wouldn't have tapped Mueller if he wasn't pretty confident it would turn out well for Republicans. Hopefully I'm wrong. I don't know much about Mueller.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8837
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #418 on: May 17, 2017, 06:14:03 PM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.

There's your problem. The .00001% of voters who post on articles aren't representative of the whole. It's a bubble. Have you ever noticed in comment sections there are certain regulars that are called out? Not necessarily the trolls, just the blind parrots who have their single issue (immigration or voter ID for example).

Trump voter isn't a coal roller, nor a raving or secret racist, nor a 4chan troll, nor an inflammatory commenter. You guys are blind to them, and it's not even the media's fault. It's sad really. Trump voters are regular blue collar people. Keep responding to the straw men though if the circle jerk feels good. If you feel this way about half of America, there's really no hope.

Speaking of straw men, we're not talking about Trump voters here.

That ship sailed a while back.  I think it's been well covered that there are many reasons why fewer people voted for him than Clinton in the last election.  Trump's racism and misogyny were well known at that point, so it's not surprising that his stances in these areas hasn't lost him much support.  Security though, was something that Trump campaigned on . . . and he has shown himself woefully unfit for duty as president along these lines, given the treason perpetrated by members of his campaign and the fact that he has personally leaked secret information while boasting to other foreign leaders.

It's somewhat surprising that this doesn't appear to bother his supporters.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3761
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #419 on: May 17, 2017, 07:06:12 PM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.

There's your problem. The .00001% of voters who post on articles aren't representative of the whole. It's a bubble. Have you ever noticed in comment sections there are certain regulars that are called out? Not necessarily the trolls, just the blind parrots who have their single issue (immigration or voter ID for example).

Trump voter isn't a coal roller, nor a raving or secret racist, nor a 4chan troll, nor an inflammatory commenter. You guys are blind to them, and it's not even the media's fault. It's sad really. Trump voters are regular blue collar people. Keep responding to the straw men though if the circle jerk feels good. If you feel this way about half of America, there's really no hope.

Speaking of straw men, we're not talking about Trump voters here.

That ship sailed a while back.  I think it's been well covered that there are many reasons why fewer people voted for him than Clinton in the last election.  Trump's racism and misogyny were well known at that point, so it's not surprising that his stances in these areas hasn't lost him much support.  Security though, was something that Trump campaigned on . . . and he has shown himself woefully unfit for duty as president along these lines, given the treason perpetrated by members of his campaign and the fact that he has personally leaked secret information while boasting to other foreign leaders.

It's somewhat surprising that this doesn't appear to bother his supporters.

The general impression I get of the Trump-base response is "it wasn't illegal."

...which, while technically correct, completely misses the point.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #420 on: May 17, 2017, 07:23:40 PM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.

I couldn't help myself, I have been delving into the cesspits of news site comments sections. Basically, there are two camps, those who are outraged, and Trump supporters, whose defenses amount to what acroy has presented--and those are the thoughtful ones. As for the less thoughtful ones, a representative comment, which I have seen more or less repeated a depressing number of times:

"I recommend you stop watching the news, then. 90 percent of news media are making up stories to harm Trump."

Truly we are testing the boundaries of cognitive dissonance like never before, and they are...vast.

There's your problem. The .00001% of voters who post on articles aren't representative of the whole. It's a bubble. Have you ever noticed in comment sections there are certain regulars that are called out? Not necessarily the trolls, just the blind parrots who have their single issue (immigration or voter ID for example).

Trump voter isn't a coal roller, nor a raving or secret racist, nor a 4chan troll, nor an inflammatory commenter. You guys are blind to them, and it's not even the media's fault. It's sad really. Trump voters are regular blue collar people. Keep responding to the straw men though if the circle jerk feels good. If you feel this way about half of America, there's really no hope.

Speaking of straw men, we're not talking about Trump voters here.

That ship sailed a while back.  I think it's been well covered that there are many reasons why fewer people voted for him than Clinton in the last election.  Trump's racism and misogyny were well known at that point, so it's not surprising that his stances in these areas hasn't lost him much support.  Security though, was something that Trump campaigned on . . . and he has shown himself woefully unfit for duty as president along these lines, given the treason perpetrated by members of his campaign and the fact that he has personally leaked secret information while boasting to other foreign leaders.

It's somewhat surprising that this doesn't appear to bother his supporters.

The general impression I get of the Trump-base response is "it wasn't illegal."

...which, while technically correct, completely misses the point.

It certainly is indicative of what importanct Trump supporters really attach to security, however.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Just Joe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 772
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #421 on: May 18, 2017, 08:42:23 AM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Wonder how his supporters are going to spin this in their minds?

1) Fake news?
2) Not that big a deal?
3) LALALALALALALA I can't hear you!
4) But her emails...

And don't forget that oldie but goodie: Bengahzi....

How could I forget?

And the answer is: all of the above:

I never did understand why those four men in Benghazi were so much more important than the thousands of soldiers/airmen/sailors who died in the line of duty or the hundreds of thousands of civilians who have died in the past twenty years of war in the Middle East starting with Desert Storm I.

All lives are important and should be protected and recognized, never squandered.

The constant lectures about Benghazi by the GOP got really old, especially when the GOP overlooked the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of lives lost during Bush's tenure.

Mistakes are made. Own up to them, study to ensure they they are prevented if possible in the future  and move on.

Just Joe

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 772
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #422 on: May 18, 2017, 08:43:28 AM »
Also, even if he's impeached (which at this point seems pretty much impossible), doesn't that just make Trump an even bigger security risk? He knows way too much and if I'm a foreign intelligence agency, I'm already plotting how to get to him if/when he's out of office. I highly doubt he would be any more restrained then...

Put him in Chelsea Manning's former cell? /sarcasm of course

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #423 on: May 18, 2017, 02:22:34 PM »

The general impression I get of the Trump-base response is "it wasn't illegal."

...which, while technically correct, completely misses the point.
Like a private email server.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #424 on: May 18, 2017, 02:32:46 PM »

The general impression I get of the Trump-base response is "it wasn't illegal."

...which, while technically correct, completely misses the point.
Like a private email server.

Great, so we can all agree that the technicality of the law is not always sufficient defense of behavior unbecoming of our national leadership. Glad you're on the same page as the rest of us with that one!

ncornilsen

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 615
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #425 on: May 18, 2017, 05:11:51 PM »

The general impression I get of the Trump-base response is "it wasn't illegal."

...which, while technically correct, completely misses the point.
Like a private email server.

Great, so we can all agree that the technicality of the law is not always sufficient defense of behavior unbecoming of our national leadership. Glad you're on the same page as the rest of us with that one!

both Trump and Clinton supports are hipocrits on this one, unless they didn't care in either case, or are outraged (like I am) in either case. Trump is less defensible, since it happened later... and I think his blab has more chance of doing material harm.


Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
  • Age: 185
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #426 on: May 18, 2017, 05:49:10 PM »

The general impression I get of the Trump-base response is "it wasn't illegal."

...which, while technically correct, completely misses the point.
Like a private email server.

Great, so we can all agree that the technicality of the law is not always sufficient defense of behavior unbecoming of our national leadership. Glad you're on the same page as the rest of us with that one!

both Trump and Clinton supports are hipocrits on this one, unless they didn't care in either case, or are outraged (like I am) in either case. Trump is less defensible, since it happened later... and I think his blab has more chance of doing material harm.

Let's not make this an equivalency, though it is absolutely fair to be outraged by both. Clinton's email server was technically legal, as was Trump's spontaneous declassification of information. Clinton's actions were stupid, but nobody was hurt, and the information wasn't classified at the time of transmittal through the server. Trump betrayed a sensitive ally intelligence source to a foreign power that has been a long-time adversary of both the US and Israel (largely through alignment with Iran). Yes, it was technically legal, but it was a colossal faux pax with far-reaching real world consequences. Honestly, this probably wouldn't have as much traction as it does if he had a  history of making subtle, informed, and strategic foreign policy decisions and actions. He has a history of quite the opposite and the information release is instead emblematic of someone who simply isn't up to snuff for the job.

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #427 on: May 19, 2017, 06:11:06 AM »

The general impression I get of the Trump-base response is "it wasn't illegal."

...which, while technically correct, completely misses the point.
Like a private email server.

Great, so we can all agree that the technicality of the law is not always sufficient defense of behavior unbecoming of our national leadership. Glad you're on the same page as the rest of us with that one!

I may be on the same page as you, not sure about the "rest" of us.

Even If he said "I hope you can drop [this]" not really impeachable or whatever, but it is also like a a mob boss saying "I hope nothing bad happens to your store." You get the message.

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1035
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #428 on: May 19, 2017, 06:16:26 AM »
um. guess I am more disgusted by what he said to Comey. the declassification thing...I have (at this time) no problem with. "hey, enemy of my enemy(Russia), bad guys are over here. I'll let you use that information as you will." bad guy thinks "someone dropped bombs on us, we're dead." Russia thinks "Wonder how they received that information?" Meh.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2413
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #429 on: May 19, 2017, 08:06:03 AM »
um. guess I am more disgusted by what he said to Comey. the declassification thing...I have (at this time) no problem with. "hey, enemy of my enemy(Russia), bad guys are over here. I'll let you use that information as you will." bad guy thinks "someone dropped bombs on us, we're dead." Russia thinks "Wonder how they received that information?" Meh.

Except that there are reports the source of the intel is Israel. Which means that Trump, because he just can't help but brag, put Israeli intelligence, and information on their intelligence-collecting strategies -- and potentially information about an under-cover Israeli operative -- in the hands of Russia, who almost certainly would give such information to Iran, one of Israel's most hostile neighbors.

I don't see this as very "meh."

Not to mention the fact that because of this, our other allies are going to really think twice about sharing information with us as long as Trump is in office. Yay.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 08:09:49 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8837
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #430 on: May 19, 2017, 06:08:48 PM »
Not to mention the fact that because of this, our other allies are going to really think twice about sharing information with us as long as Trump is in office. Yay.

Actually, I'd argue that this is the silver lining of the whole incident.  Trump has proven himself dangerously incompetent.  His incompetence is now publicly on display for the world to see . . . the sooner that the rest of the world stops trusting America while under his leadership the better.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #431 on: May 19, 2017, 06:19:26 PM »
Not to mention the fact that because of this, our other allies are going to really think twice about sharing information with us as long as Trump is in office. Yay.

Actually, I'd argue that this is the silver lining of the whole incident.  Trump has proven himself dangerously incompetent.  His incompetence is now publicly on display for the world to see . . . the sooner that the rest of the world stops trusting America while under his leadership the better.

I worry now that the US won't get intelligence sharing that could have averted an attack on the lives of soldiers abroad or people in the US.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8837
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #432 on: May 20, 2017, 11:27:27 AM »
Not to mention the fact that because of this, our other allies are going to really think twice about sharing information with us as long as Trump is in office. Yay.

Actually, I'd argue that this is the silver lining of the whole incident.  Trump has proven himself dangerously incompetent.  His incompetence is now publicly on display for the world to see . . . the sooner that the rest of the world stops trusting America while under his leadership the better.

I worry now that the US won't get intelligence sharing that could have averted an attack on the lives of soldiers abroad or people in the US.

Elections have consequences.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #433 on: May 26, 2017, 06:48:07 PM »
I keep thinking "could there possibly be anything more outrageous to come out of this Russia investigation than [whatever the last major news story was]"

Apparently yes.

Russian ambassador told Moscow that Kushner wanted secret communications channel with Kremlin
Jared Kushner and Russiaís ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trumpís transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports....
The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn


Either this is a giant lie or the biggest boneheaded move by anyone in politics in quite some time.
Article here.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #434 on: May 26, 2017, 08:20:39 PM »
I keep thinking "could there possibly be anything more outrageous to come out of this Russia investigation than [whatever the last major news story was]"

Apparently yes.

Russian ambassador told Moscow that Kushner wanted secret communications channel with Kremlin
Jared Kushner and Russiaís ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trumpís transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports....
The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn


Either this is a giant lie or the biggest boneheaded move by anyone in politics in quite some time.
Article here.

Woah, I thought this couldn't be accurate when I read your post. Plus now it seems there have been 3 other times Kushner contacted the Russians during and after the election that were not previously disclosed. Can't wait to hear the apologist stance on this one.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #435 on: May 27, 2017, 06:09:37 AM »
I doubt there will be any apology.  A fierce denial, then an attack and mis-direct on the 'leakers'.  Some rhetoric. DJT's WH dodge and attack, but never apologize.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1024
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #436 on: May 27, 2017, 07:24:09 AM »
I read some comments in relation to the article. Same old shift the goalpost fallacies. Fake news, Hillary, Obama, etc. Some will defend this traitor to their death beds. The Trump supporters in my family have grown extremely quiet. 

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #437 on: May 27, 2017, 08:17:01 AM »
The Trump family and campaign and administration's connections with the autocrat Putin is just mind-boggling. The willingness on the part of Trump to undermine our own security interests to curry favor with Putin is shocking.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #438 on: May 27, 2017, 08:21:16 AM »
I read some comments in relation to the article. Same old shift the goalpost fallacies. Fake news, Hillary, Obama, etc. Some will defend this traitor to their death beds.
I've found I'm much happier simply not reading the comments on news articles. It's not even set up in a way where conversation and debate can take place, but rather streams shouted-out comments.

Quote
The Trump supporters in my family have grown extremely quiet.
yeah, same here. At least in my family of mostly older retired military republicans their lifelong distrust of Russia is not sitting well with their inherent desire to support their president who comes from their party.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #439 on: May 27, 2017, 10:59:24 AM »
I doubt there will be any apology.  A fierce denial, then an attack and mis-direct on the 'leakers'.  Some rhetoric. DJT's WH dodge and attack, but never apologize.

I meant the Trump apologists, as in the supporters who literally seem to think he and his administration are incapable of doing anything wrong. But yeah, the less crazy Trump supporters mostly seem to have gone quiet lately, although I would bet most would say it's because they're sick of listening to the liberal echo chamber and biased media. Better to keep their heads firmly planted in the sand.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 12:17:54 PM by Lagom »

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #440 on: May 27, 2017, 11:28:31 AM »
I doubt there will be any apology.  A fierce denial, then an attack and mis-direct on the 'leakers'.  Some rhetoric. DJT's WH dodge and attack, but never apologize.

I meant the Trump apologists, as in the supporters who literally seem to think he and his administration are incapable of doing anything wrong. But yeah, the less crazy Trump supporters mostly seem to have gone quiet lately, although I would bet most would say it's because their sick of listening to the liberal echo chamber and biased media. Better to keep their heads firmly planted in the sand.
Gotcha.
Well, HR McMaster was sent out to say "I would not be concerned" by this, and punted questions to Spicer.  Perhaps unsurprisingly Spicer's response was "We have nothing [to say to the press]."  After trying unsuccesfully to steer the Q&A back towards the G7 McMaster ended the briefing and Spicer left taking no questions.  Nothing from DJT or Kushnur as of yet.

Full-court press on the sunday talk shows by the WH tomorrow?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 11:32:13 AM by nereo »
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #441 on: May 27, 2017, 04:45:33 PM »
In December 2016 Jared Kushner met with a Russian bank, used as a front by Putin for recruiting spies in the past.

http://www.businessinsider.com/kushner-meeting-russian-bank-gorkov-vnesheconombank-2017-5


nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #442 on: May 28, 2017, 07:40:37 AM »
...the WH is now considering establishing a 'war room' to combat the growing pressure from probes surrounding the Trump campaigns involvement with Russia during the election.

So - they see themselves at war... with the American public. Earlier I read something about this being viewed by the WH as a "branding and messaging problem" - not about whether what they did was or was not appropriate.

Bottom line is this thing is likely to get even more hostile. How is it we've only started month 5?!
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 617
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #443 on: May 31, 2017, 02:46:03 PM »
I think you can all see this as a stress test of the American constitutional system.

As designed, was it built resilient enough to withstand such an overt and intense attempt to wreck it?  Are the checks and balances going to hold the line?

Back in the day none of the 'Founding Fathers' thought that all presidents would be good or competent, nor that all members of Congress or all judges etc.  That's the whole point of a constitutional system - to have a democratic immune system that will limit the damage when any one (or even two) parts become sick. 

Right now you have one branch of government that is wholly compromised, and another that is somewhat compromised (with a chance for redemption in another 18 months). 

The question everyone is watching to see is whether your system is robust enough to withstand this kind of infection.  I think it's up in the air, but it is far from over. 

If anything it is shaking up the Democrats and forcing them to realize that their unholy alliance of identity politics + corporate selling out cannot continue, and they have to actually represent people's economic interests again (as well as their civil rights, which they've been pretty good on for the most part).

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #444 on: May 31, 2017, 02:50:27 PM »
If anything it is shaking up the Democrats and forcing them to realize that their unholy alliance of identity politics + corporate selling out cannot continue, and they have to actually represent people's economic interests again (as well as their civil rights, which they've been pretty good on for the most part).

I dunno, this has been said about the Republican alliance between corporate selling out and religious extremists, and yet here we are. Not that I think this likely or even logistically plausible, but a legit third party really seems like the best way to take our country back from the extremists.

DavidAnnArbor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #445 on: May 31, 2017, 04:41:57 PM »
If anything it is shaking up the Democrats and forcing them to realize that their unholy alliance of identity politics + corporate selling out cannot continue, and they have to actually represent people's economic interests again

It's under the Democrats the number of uninsured Americans dropped by about half.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #446 on: June 01, 2017, 08:47:04 AM »
If anything it is shaking up the Democrats and forcing them to realize that their unholy alliance of identity politics + corporate selling out cannot continue, and they have to actually represent people's economic interests again

It's under the Democrats the number of uninsured Americans dropped by about half.
Can't help but notice that health care is now in the Russia OT thread, while the health-care thread has lately been dominated by discussions on Russia.  Black is white, up is down and dogs are sleeping with cats.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #447 on: June 01, 2017, 08:56:16 AM »
...Back to Russia!

DJT is giving back the two compounds in NY and MD which Obama took away as a penalty for meddling in the presidential election.

Originally the WH position was that the US would turn the compounds back over to the Russians if Moscow would lift the freeze on construction of a US Consulate in St. Petersburg

For reasons one can only guess, the new position is that Russia gets the compounds back with no concessions to the US whatsoever.

The "great deal-maker" (possibly the greatest in history) plopped down his chips and then apparently folded before looking at the cards. Or maybe he knows Russia is holding five aces. Whatever.  I'm just pissed that the punishment for Russian sanctions appears to have lasted a grand total of 6 months.

From WaPo's Right Turn
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5348
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #448 on: June 01, 2017, 10:42:47 AM »
DJT is giving back the two compounds in NY and MD which Obama took away as a penalty for meddling in the presidential election.
...
I'm just pissed that the punishment for Russian sanctions appears to have lasted a grand total of 6 months.

You're only upset because you've mistakenly assumed that Trump was actually in some kind of negotiation with the Russians where he wanted to get something in return.  He already got everything he wanted.  Returning those compounds to the Russians wasn't him folding his hand, it was him rewarding the Russians for their good work.

We saw the same thing when Trump became the republican nominee and the party promptly changed its official platform to classify Russia as an ally instead of an adversary.  We saw it when they called Moscow during the campaign to discuss lifting sanctions the US imposed over Ukraine, if he won the election.  We saw it when he appointed a recipient of the Russian Order of Friendship to be Secretary of State.

Donald Trump seems to love Russia, for reasons that aren't quite clear.  Remember during the early debates when everyone made fun of him for saying that Russia was the biggest national security threat to America?  Boy did his tune change quickly on that one.

And we already know that several of Trump's buildings were saved from bankruptcy by Russian oligarchs buying up the units as investment properties.  He's literally made hundreds of millions of dollars from personal friends of Vladimir Putin giving him money for empty buildings. 

But all of that would be circumstantial evidence if it weren't for the phone taps, and that's what I think will sink the administration.  The US security apparatus routinely monitors the phones of Russian spies living in the US, and several of them had blatantly illegal phone conversations with members of the administration before during and after the election.  That's the backstory to Trump's claims about Obama wiretapping him: technically we wiretapped Russian spies and suddenly we had all these hours of Trump staffers talking to the Russians.

Like everything else about this administration, the question is not whether any of this happened, it's just a question of how illegal something has to be to take down a president.  Obstruction of justice is illegal, unless you're the president.  Revealing classified information is illegal, unless you're the president.  Nepotism is illegal, unless you're the president.  Pussy grabbing is illegal, unless you're the president.  He's walking a fine line, trying to figure out exactly how much be can get away with.  He openly admits to doing all of these things that would be illegal for anyone else, but then claims immunity because of the office he holds.

At this point I think it's only a matter of time before the special prosecutor decides it was all intentionally malevolent, and thus illegal, or just bumbling incompetence and thus stupidly embarrassing but not prosecutable.  They need to get him under oath to give him the chance to perjure himself, because that's probably the only crime they can definitely nail him for.  Everything else he can chalk up to "honest" mistakes.

Personally, I'm hoping it's incompetence and not malevolent anti-American activity.  Right now Trumps's idiocy is the only thing standing in the way of Paul Ryan's wet dream of destroying the American economy from the inside.  If Trump does get removed from office, then anyone else in the line of succession who would rise to the office is suddenly a competent and experienced right wing crusader who hates everything that makes America great.  Looking at the list (Pence, Ryan, Hatch) makes me fear for the republic if Trump were to leave office before the next election.

No, as a proud American liberal who believes the strength of our nation lies in the cohesiveness of our diversity and our ability to look out for each other, I want Trump to stay in office, to tweet ridiculous things more often, to support fantasy legislation with no chance of passing, and to continue to so perfectly embody everything that is wrong with the republican party that broad swaths of America finally shake off their lingering reagan-era nostalgia and embrace a brighter, cheerier vision of our collective future by voting for people who don't openly espouse hatred and intolerance.  #AnyDemocrat2020

Until then, Mr. President, be true to yourself.  Don't listen to the haters.  You have exactly the instincts America needs most in this time of peril.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6345
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #449 on: June 01, 2017, 11:24:48 AM »
#Sol2020?

Mueller is methodical and criminal investigations generally take a few years (though there's very little that's typical here). I'm guessing 6-24 months before anything comes of the FBI's investigation. The four congressional hearings will make noise and provoke responses (and DJT has committed multiple unforced errors thusfar). 
Given that Pence is next in line I share your trepidation about what will come should DJT be removed from office. "Do nothing" is preferable than the social construct Pence/Ryan want - particualrly if the AHCA is any indication.

But hold on a second, must we wait until 2020?  Let's assume for a second that all this smoke billowing around indeed comes from a fire. Let's also assume that another 16 months of this crap results in the democrat version of the '94 republican revolution.
what then? do we prefer an antagonistic and increasingly hostile president to what could certainly be a lame-duck Pence? As abhorrent as I find many of Pence's beliefs to be, he's unlikely to launch twitter-attacks at Germany, praise dictators and harbor conspiracy theories.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"