Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 18125 times)

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #350 on: March 28, 2017, 06:08:49 PM »
So do Trump and Ryan have a quid pro quo going? Specifically, Trump doesn't throw Ryan under the bus on the health care reform meltdown as long as Ryan keeps Nunes on the investigative panel to obstruct its progress. The Yates hearing was pulled by Nunes as soon as the only path to blocking her testimony otherwise would require Trump citing executive privilege. This really is Stupid Watergate.

Seems like it, eh? Can they keep it going or will the wheels fall off? Nixon tried to contain Watergate too.

The Senate is going to start looking into it and Graham and McCain are not friendly with the Trump administration.

Lagom

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #351 on: April 04, 2017, 01:29:50 PM »
Dominoes?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/blackwater-founder-held-secret-seychelles-meeting-to-establish-trump-putin-back-channel/2017/04/03/95908a08-1648-11e7-ada0-1489b735b3a3_story.html?utm_term=.89820e35893c

Sometimes seems like literally everyone who has ever tried to abuse the US governmental process to enrich themselves is a big Trump supporter/involved with Russia in some way. Go figure.

acroy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #352 on: April 04, 2017, 01:41:39 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.
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Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #353 on: April 04, 2017, 01:58:57 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

Yeah. So why should we care at all that a failed superpower with ambitions of toppling the world's #1 superpower can effectively change the outcome of our presidential election?
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #354 on: April 04, 2017, 02:37:55 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

I'm not sure that GDP is the issue so much as that Putin has a long track record of doing exactly what his is accused of in other countries. Marie LePen comes to mind if we need something else more recent and openly acknowledged. A great way to improve your standing in the world is to shift the stance of other nations to be more favorable, especially when one of those countries has the leverage to impose economically significant sanctions. Just to bring that point home, some of those sanctions were put in place (along with the sending-home of some 30 diplomats) were  put in place in direct response to evidence that Russia directly attempted to influence our election (and no, not by changing vote tallies directly).

If this were McCarthy, the question would be: Do you love America enough to stand up to foreign fellow travelers and conspirators? A love of Russia is fine and protected speech, even for the president and I have no problem with that in a legal sense even if I disagree with it personally. If the Trump campaign played dirty with Russia to help win, or in a quid-pro-quo then it is starting to smell a lot like treason. It is not currently conclusive (just as the FBI investigation of Clinton did not lead to a trial or conviction), but there is enough smoke to wonder if there is a fire, so to speak.

Lagom

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #355 on: April 04, 2017, 02:39:51 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

Yeah. So why should we care at all that a failed superpower with ambitions of toppling the world's #1 superpower can effectively change the outcome of our presidential election?

LOL @ the bolded. Puh-leeze. Read a history book (pretty much any of them) if you really believe that.

But I'll spell it out (AGAIN): the issue is not that anyone is scared of Russian agents toppling the government and folding us into a renewed USSR. That is a strawman so frail it can be blown away by a mouse fart. The issue is that our president and his administration is historically dishonest and corrupt, and has repeatedly colluded with a foreign government (that just happens to be Russia, but it wouldn't matter if it were Saudi Arabia, or China, or East Timor) in order to enrich themselves and their buddies. At least that is what increasingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to suggest. We need a full investigation to know for sure, of course, but brainwashed Trumpbots like yourself appear to see him as incapable of doing wrong and thus won't even think of supporting an investigation of any kind, despite the fact you are sooooo confident there is nothing here. To parrot a favorite line of folks like you: why block investigations at every turn if there is nothing to hide?


acroy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #356 on: April 04, 2017, 02:46:14 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

Yeah. So why should we care at all that a failed superpower with ambitions of toppling the world's #1 superpower can effectively change the outcome of our presidential election?
why would Russia try?
they had great allies in 'more flexible' Obama and the Clintons
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445186/left-hypocrisy-russia-partner-under-obama
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/washington/03prexy.html

Really, Mrs Clinton was given 90%+ chance of winning throughout the campaign. President Hillary was de-facto. Remember? it wasn't long ago. Really think Russia would risk a massive scandal with the new Clinton administration by trying to undermine her? when they'd been such good friends, so many mutual benefits, so many years?




I'm not sure that GDP is the issue so much as that Putin has a long track record of doing exactly what his is accused of in other countries. Marie LePen comes to mind if we need something else more recent and openly acknowledged. A great way to improve your standing in the world is to shift the stance of other nations to be more favorable, especially when one of those countries has the leverage to impose economically significant sanctions. Just to bring that point home, some of those sanctions were put in place (along with the sending-home of some 30 diplomats) were  put in place in direct response to evidence that Russia directly attempted to influence our election (and no, not by changing vote tallies directly).

If this were McCarthy, the question would be: Do you love America enough to stand up to foreign fellow travelers and conspirators? A love of Russia is fine and protected speech, even for the president and I have no problem with that in a legal sense even if I disagree with it personally. If the Trump campaign played dirty with Russia to help win, or in a quid-pro-quo then it is starting to smell a lot like treason. It is not currently conclusive (just as the FBI investigation of Clinton did not lead to a trial or conviction), but there is enough smoke to wonder if there is a fire, so to speak.

Bold mine

But where is the logic? There is none. There would be only downside for Russia to engage in such risky behavior.
All the hoopla is inane hysteria; trying to create smoke.
Trump as Hitler meme has failed; now it's Trump as Putin. Whatever.
Russia as 'enemy #1' is 'tilting at windmills'. Russia is a convenient way to try to smear Trump.
Just more 'crying Wolf'

Obama+Clinton worked deals with Russia. Facts. If anything, if I was Putin, i'd be pulling for Clinton. A known, flexible candidate. Not the crazy Trump, no one knows what he's going to do.
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acroy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #357 on: April 04, 2017, 02:50:33 PM »
The issue is that our president and his administration is historically dishonest and corrupt, and has repeatedly colluded with a foreign government (that just happens to be Russia, but it wouldn't matter if it were Saudi Arabia, or China, or East Timor) in order to enrich themselves and their buddies. At least that is what increasingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to suggest. We need a full investigation to know for sure, of course, but brainwashed Trumpbots like yourself appear to see him as incapable of doing wrong and thus won't even think of supporting an investigation of any kind, despite the fact you are sooooo confident there is nothing here. To parrot a favorite line of folks like you: why block investigations at every turn if there is nothing to hide?
I'm sorry, were you referring to the previous O Admin, or current Trump admin? it's hard to tell...

You may attack my opinions, but do not lower yourself to attack my intelligence, or so quickly pigeon-hole me, please. Try to do better than ad hominum. Flinging mud is infantile.
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Lagom

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #358 on: April 04, 2017, 04:02:38 PM »
The issue is that our president and his administration is historically dishonest and corrupt, and has repeatedly colluded with a foreign government (that just happens to be Russia, but it wouldn't matter if it were Saudi Arabia, or China, or East Timor) in order to enrich themselves and their buddies. At least that is what increasingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to suggest. We need a full investigation to know for sure, of course, but brainwashed Trumpbots like yourself appear to see him as incapable of doing wrong and thus won't even think of supporting an investigation of any kind, despite the fact you are sooooo confident there is nothing here. To parrot a favorite line of folks like you: why block investigations at every turn if there is nothing to hide?
I'm sorry, were you referring to the previous O Admin, or current Trump admin? it's hard to tell...

You may attack my opinions, but do not lower yourself to attack my intelligence, or so quickly pigeon-hole me, please. Try to do better than ad hominum. Flinging mud is infantile.

Apologies, I didn't realize you supported a special investigation of the Trump-Russia ties regarding possible collusion. Also, I never suggested you were unintelligent, just closed-minded and hyper partisan (edit - and ignorant of history, in the case of McCarthyism).

I personally have gladly and loudly criticized Obama, Clinton (both of them), Carter, etc., on many occasions, just as I have criticized Bush (both of them), Reagan, etc. Lots of terrible decision-making to go around in the oval office. This administration just happens to be especially (and very obviously) bad from a corruption standpoint. From a treason standpoint remains to be seen, but there is plenty of smoke here. People like you (or how you are coming across anyway) might "admit" wrongdoing on their "side," but are ever so fond of dismissing it with your own favorite fallacy: tu quoque.

Sorry if I misinterpreted, though. Please do feel free to set the record straight.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 04:05:32 PM by Lagom »

DoubleDown

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #359 on: April 04, 2017, 08:26:01 PM »
If anything, if I was Putin, i'd be pulling for Clinton. A known, flexible candidate. Not the crazy Trump, no one knows what he's going to do.

Except that your proposition is completely false. U.S. intelligence agencies have determined with a strong degree of confidence (in intelligence circles, that's as certain as it gets) that Putin did not want H. Clinton to win, that he could not stand her, and he wanted Trump to win. Unless you believe the directors of the FBI, CIA, NSA, DNI, DIA, and other intelligence agencies are all complicit in this "McCarthy conspiracy to smear Trump," in which case there is no point trying to reason with you.

Besides, not sure if you're following the actual, non-fake news, but one of the central questions of the investigation is to determine if there was a quid pro quo between Putin and Trump (there's already a whole lot of credible "smoke" that this is true, investigations will reveal if there's fire); specifically, that Putin would try to help Trump win in exchange for letting Russia essentially do what it wants in Ukraine and Crimea if Trump does win. See the "unexplained" change to the official Republican Party platform at the RNC convention last summer as just one piece of evidence, plus possible compromising information against Trump as blackmail to ensure Trump upholds his part of the bargain. If this quid pro quo exists, then Putin would not pull for Clinton (with whom he had no agreement), he would pull for Trump, see?

Also, it is important to understand that from the Kremlin's point of view, sowing discord in the U.S. government is a win, no matter the outcome of the election. On that front they've already won. Russia has a long and proud history of trying to sow chaos among adversaries. You know, it wasn't a coincidence that they chose the name "KAOS" for the evil, Russian KGB stand-in in the old "Get Smart" TV show. It is and was such an obvious trait of Russia's dealings with the world that even Hollywood television show writers made fun of it.
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Wexler

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #360 on: April 04, 2017, 10:34:47 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

It's incredible to me that the conservative side is so tribal that they happily carry water for Russia because they perceive this stance helps Trump.  The same people who, you know, were responsible for McCarthyism, are furiously spinning happy tales of Russia Should Be Our Ally!  Honestly, imagine a Reagan-era Republican looking at this right now. I can't imagine a more wholesale defeat of conservatives and conservative ideals than Trumpism.  All that remains are the grievances.

DoubleDown

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #361 on: April 05, 2017, 12:06:53 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

It's incredible to me that the conservative side is so tribal that they happily carry water for Russia because they perceive this stance helps Trump.  The same people who, you know, were responsible for McCarthyism, are furiously spinning happy tales of Russia Should Be Our Ally!  Honestly, imagine a Reagan-era Republican looking at this right now. I can't imagine a more wholesale defeat of conservatives and conservative ideals than Trumpism.  All that remains are the grievances.

So true. Hard to comprehend how the Republican party has shifted so dramatically in recent years. The recent breakdown over "repeal and replace" is just one illustration of how the party is being torn apart by the different factions.
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thesvenster

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #362 on: April 07, 2017, 01:03:25 PM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

Cranberries

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #363 on: April 07, 2017, 01:35:13 PM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

Authoritarian regimes (and Trump wishes he were one) routinely switch alliances and enemies depending on political whims. They need an outside enemy to unite the populace. This is basic politics, not conspiracy. Putin may have helped get Trump elected (possibly by accident), but that says nothing about how long an alliance between the two would last.

This is why I have been extremely wary of the anti-Russia obsession on the political left. It might be true that Russia interfered. It is certainly true that several of Trump's appointments had extremely strong ties to Russia. It is definitely true that stoking xenophobia and anti-other sentiment feeds into the authoritarian's hand when they decide it is time to switch the narrative.

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DoubleDown

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #364 on: April 07, 2017, 01:36:09 PM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

I'll take your bait. I see no reason to change the investigation into potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian interlopers because of the recent missile strikes to Syria. You can call it "cockamamie conspiracy theories" but there's a reason investigations are being conducted by:

1. The FBI
2. The Republican-led House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
3. The Republican-led Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

The entire intelligence community has determined Russia interfered with our electoral process and purposely spread "fake news" to aid Trump. At least 6 to 8 close Trump advisers had contacts with Russian foreign agents (Manafort, Sessions, Kushner, Page, Flynn...). Trump's friggin' National Security Advisor had to step down after only 3 weeks because of it. The RNC's official platform regarding Russia was changed because Paul Manafort and another Trump senior adviser (Carter Page?? I don't recall) insisted on it at the convention, after they met with Russian operatives. It's not like the FBI goes around opening national security investigations just because some internet troll made up a conspiracy on a website. And the Congressional investigations have been launched by the president's own party -- hardly a political witch hunt. You realize all this, right?
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Lagom

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #365 on: April 07, 2017, 01:40:13 PM »
+1 to DoubleDown. All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 02:11:22 PM by Lagom »

DoubleDown

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #366 on: April 07, 2017, 01:57:03 PM »
^ All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.

I know, I'm just easily baited by calls of "Bueller?? Bueller?" :-)

Plus I didn't want the Fox and Friends and Breitbart crowd to interpret silence as agreement, like we were all instantly forced back under our rocks and forced to admit how stupid we were ever to question Trump and Russian meddling in the election once we saw how Our President and Savior bravely and forcefully stood up to Syria.
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Lagom

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #367 on: April 07, 2017, 02:10:38 PM »
^ All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.

I know, I'm just easily baited by calls of "Bueller?? Bueller?" :-)

Plus I didn't want the Fox and Friends and Breitbart crowd to interpret silence as agreement, like we were all instantly forced back under our rocks and forced to admit how stupid we were ever to question Trump and Russian meddling in the election once we saw how Our President and Savior bravely and forcefully stood up to Syria.

For sure. Should have been "+1" rather than "^" Sorry for being unclear, I am totally in agreement on all fronts!

BlueHouse

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #368 on: April 07, 2017, 04:18:54 PM »

why would Russia try?

well, we can't fully answer that unless and until we know the full extent of Trump's business and personal dealings with foreign powers.  Releasing his tax returns would be a first step in getting more people to trust that there aren't back-channel agreements that could mean he would put his own or his family's interests ahead of the American People.

Why would he promise to release them for so long and then just go back on his word?  What is he hiding?  And I don't ask that from the standpoint of "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".  No, this man has more financial entanglements than any other official in the history of our government.  And he's a liar.  Proven repeatedly.  So we really need to verify these financial commitments that he has. 
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GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #369 on: April 08, 2017, 07:38:01 AM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

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Johnez

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #370 on: April 10, 2017, 11:08:21 AM »
Thanks for posting the Uranium deal links acroy. I guess all of our politicians are on the take.... Anybody flipping their lids over Trumputin romance should take a read of that NYT article-would Clinton be any less entangled? Pretty freaking depressing. Our leaders are globalist, jet setting, self enriching liars.

Poundwise

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #371 on: April 10, 2017, 02:31:33 PM »
I saw this article some time ago... http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/ 
It cites acroy's NYT article, but also adds:
"The timing of Telfer’s donations might be questionable if there was reason to believe that Hillary Clinton was instrumental in the approval of the deal with Russia, but all the evidence points to the contrary — that Clinton did not play a pivotal role, and, in fact, may not have played any role at all."
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 02:33:52 PM by Poundwise »

Tasty Pinecones

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #372 on: April 10, 2017, 04:42:18 PM »
+1 to DoubleDown. All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.

http://www.thebrainwashingofmydad.com/

The movie detailed some of the methods.

In short Russia gathered the email addresses and details of individuals across the country via hacking events. Then Russia identified groups of people who would be susceptible to "fake news" and who also used social media. Russia then bombarded those people with propaganda (fake news) that looked "legit". Whether there are other players involved I don't know.

Supposedly this was easier than trying to hack voting machines directly.

Steer a whole series of demographics (mostly angry white male voters) to believe whatever Russia wanted them to believe. Because this same group discounts the mainstream media as "liberal" or unreliable in other ways, and b/c this same group of people refuse to listen to reason from other sources - they are very useful to the puppeteers.

This is assuming the articles I've read and the movie are correct.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 04:45:11 PM by Tasty Pinecones »