Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 41384 times)

bacchi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1935
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #350 on: March 28, 2017, 06:08:49 PM »
So do Trump and Ryan have a quid pro quo going? Specifically, Trump doesn't throw Ryan under the bus on the health care reform meltdown as long as Ryan keeps Nunes on the investigative panel to obstruct its progress. The Yates hearing was pulled by Nunes as soon as the only path to blocking her testimony otherwise would require Trump citing executive privilege. This really is Stupid Watergate.

Seems like it, eh? Can they keep it going or will the wheels fall off? Nixon tried to contain Watergate too.

The Senate is going to start looking into it and Graham and McCain are not friendly with the Trump administration.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #351 on: April 04, 2017, 01:29:50 PM »
Dominoes?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/blackwater-founder-held-secret-seychelles-meeting-to-establish-trump-putin-back-channel/2017/04/03/95908a08-1648-11e7-ada0-1489b735b3a3_story.html?utm_term=.89820e35893c

Sometimes seems like literally everyone who has ever tried to abuse the US governmental process to enrich themselves is a big Trump supporter/involved with Russia in some way. Go figure.

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #352 on: April 04, 2017, 01:41:39 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.
SWAMI (Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual) 1 stash, 1 DW, 7 Mini MM's...
God, Family, Country. Everything else is details.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #353 on: April 04, 2017, 01:58:57 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

Yeah. So why should we care at all that a failed superpower with ambitions of toppling the world's #1 superpower can effectively change the outcome of our presidential election?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
  • Age: 185
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #354 on: April 04, 2017, 02:37:55 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

I'm not sure that GDP is the issue so much as that Putin has a long track record of doing exactly what his is accused of in other countries. Marie LePen comes to mind if we need something else more recent and openly acknowledged. A great way to improve your standing in the world is to shift the stance of other nations to be more favorable, especially when one of those countries has the leverage to impose economically significant sanctions. Just to bring that point home, some of those sanctions were put in place (along with the sending-home of some 30 diplomats) were  put in place in direct response to evidence that Russia directly attempted to influence our election (and no, not by changing vote tallies directly).

If this were McCarthy, the question would be: Do you love America enough to stand up to foreign fellow travelers and conspirators? A love of Russia is fine and protected speech, even for the president and I have no problem with that in a legal sense even if I disagree with it personally. If the Trump campaign played dirty with Russia to help win, or in a quid-pro-quo then it is starting to smell a lot like treason. It is not currently conclusive (just as the FBI investigation of Clinton did not lead to a trial or conviction), but there is enough smoke to wonder if there is a fire, so to speak.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #355 on: April 04, 2017, 02:39:51 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

Yeah. So why should we care at all that a failed superpower with ambitions of toppling the world's #1 superpower can effectively change the outcome of our presidential election?

LOL @ the bolded. Puh-leeze. Read a history book (pretty much any of them) if you really believe that.

But I'll spell it out (AGAIN): the issue is not that anyone is scared of Russian agents toppling the government and folding us into a renewed USSR. That is a strawman so frail it can be blown away by a mouse fart. The issue is that our president and his administration is historically dishonest and corrupt, and has repeatedly colluded with a foreign government (that just happens to be Russia, but it wouldn't matter if it were Saudi Arabia, or China, or East Timor) in order to enrich themselves and their buddies. At least that is what increasingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to suggest. We need a full investigation to know for sure, of course, but brainwashed Trumpbots like yourself appear to see him as incapable of doing wrong and thus won't even think of supporting an investigation of any kind, despite the fact you are sooooo confident there is nothing here. To parrot a favorite line of folks like you: why block investigations at every turn if there is nothing to hide?


acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #356 on: April 04, 2017, 02:46:14 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

Yeah. So why should we care at all that a failed superpower with ambitions of toppling the world's #1 superpower can effectively change the outcome of our presidential election?
why would Russia try?
they had great allies in 'more flexible' Obama and the Clintons
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445186/left-hypocrisy-russia-partner-under-obama
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/washington/03prexy.html

Really, Mrs Clinton was given 90%+ chance of winning throughout the campaign. President Hillary was de-facto. Remember? it wasn't long ago. Really think Russia would risk a massive scandal with the new Clinton administration by trying to undermine her? when they'd been such good friends, so many mutual benefits, so many years?




I'm not sure that GDP is the issue so much as that Putin has a long track record of doing exactly what his is accused of in other countries. Marie LePen comes to mind if we need something else more recent and openly acknowledged. A great way to improve your standing in the world is to shift the stance of other nations to be more favorable, especially when one of those countries has the leverage to impose economically significant sanctions. Just to bring that point home, some of those sanctions were put in place (along with the sending-home of some 30 diplomats) were  put in place in direct response to evidence that Russia directly attempted to influence our election (and no, not by changing vote tallies directly).

If this were McCarthy, the question would be: Do you love America enough to stand up to foreign fellow travelers and conspirators? A love of Russia is fine and protected speech, even for the president and I have no problem with that in a legal sense even if I disagree with it personally. If the Trump campaign played dirty with Russia to help win, or in a quid-pro-quo then it is starting to smell a lot like treason. It is not currently conclusive (just as the FBI investigation of Clinton did not lead to a trial or conviction), but there is enough smoke to wonder if there is a fire, so to speak.

Bold mine

But where is the logic? There is none. There would be only downside for Russia to engage in such risky behavior.
All the hoopla is inane hysteria; trying to create smoke.
Trump as Hitler meme has failed; now it's Trump as Putin. Whatever.
Russia as 'enemy #1' is 'tilting at windmills'. Russia is a convenient way to try to smear Trump.
Just more 'crying Wolf'

Obama+Clinton worked deals with Russia. Facts. If anything, if I was Putin, i'd be pulling for Clinton. A known, flexible candidate. Not the crazy Trump, no one knows what he's going to do.
SWAMI (Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual) 1 stash, 1 DW, 7 Mini MM's...
God, Family, Country. Everything else is details.

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #357 on: April 04, 2017, 02:50:33 PM »
The issue is that our president and his administration is historically dishonest and corrupt, and has repeatedly colluded with a foreign government (that just happens to be Russia, but it wouldn't matter if it were Saudi Arabia, or China, or East Timor) in order to enrich themselves and their buddies. At least that is what increasingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to suggest. We need a full investigation to know for sure, of course, but brainwashed Trumpbots like yourself appear to see him as incapable of doing wrong and thus won't even think of supporting an investigation of any kind, despite the fact you are sooooo confident there is nothing here. To parrot a favorite line of folks like you: why block investigations at every turn if there is nothing to hide?
I'm sorry, were you referring to the previous O Admin, or current Trump admin? it's hard to tell...

You may attack my opinions, but do not lower yourself to attack my intelligence, or so quickly pigeon-hole me, please. Try to do better than ad hominum. Flinging mud is infantile.
SWAMI (Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual) 1 stash, 1 DW, 7 Mini MM's...
God, Family, Country. Everything else is details.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #358 on: April 04, 2017, 04:02:38 PM »
The issue is that our president and his administration is historically dishonest and corrupt, and has repeatedly colluded with a foreign government (that just happens to be Russia, but it wouldn't matter if it were Saudi Arabia, or China, or East Timor) in order to enrich themselves and their buddies. At least that is what increasingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to suggest. We need a full investigation to know for sure, of course, but brainwashed Trumpbots like yourself appear to see him as incapable of doing wrong and thus won't even think of supporting an investigation of any kind, despite the fact you are sooooo confident there is nothing here. To parrot a favorite line of folks like you: why block investigations at every turn if there is nothing to hide?
I'm sorry, were you referring to the previous O Admin, or current Trump admin? it's hard to tell...

You may attack my opinions, but do not lower yourself to attack my intelligence, or so quickly pigeon-hole me, please. Try to do better than ad hominum. Flinging mud is infantile.

Apologies, I didn't realize you supported a special investigation of the Trump-Russia ties regarding possible collusion. Also, I never suggested you were unintelligent, just closed-minded and hyper partisan (edit - and ignorant of history, in the case of McCarthyism).

I personally have gladly and loudly criticized Obama, Clinton (both of them), Carter, etc., on many occasions, just as I have criticized Bush (both of them), Reagan, etc. Lots of terrible decision-making to go around in the oval office. This administration just happens to be especially (and very obviously) bad from a corruption standpoint. From a treason standpoint remains to be seen, but there is plenty of smoke here. People like you (or how you are coming across anyway) might "admit" wrongdoing on their "side," but are ever so fond of dismissing it with your own favorite fallacy: tu quoque.

Sorry if I misinterpreted, though. Please do feel free to set the record straight.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 04:05:32 PM by Lagom »

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #359 on: April 04, 2017, 08:26:01 PM »
If anything, if I was Putin, i'd be pulling for Clinton. A known, flexible candidate. Not the crazy Trump, no one knows what he's going to do.

Except that your proposition is completely false. U.S. intelligence agencies have determined with a strong degree of confidence (in intelligence circles, that's as certain as it gets) that Putin did not want H. Clinton to win, that he could not stand her, and he wanted Trump to win. Unless you believe the directors of the FBI, CIA, NSA, DNI, DIA, and other intelligence agencies are all complicit in this "McCarthy conspiracy to smear Trump," in which case there is no point trying to reason with you.

Besides, not sure if you're following the actual, non-fake news, but one of the central questions of the investigation is to determine if there was a quid pro quo between Putin and Trump (there's already a whole lot of credible "smoke" that this is true, investigations will reveal if there's fire); specifically, that Putin would try to help Trump win in exchange for letting Russia essentially do what it wants in Ukraine and Crimea if Trump does win. See the "unexplained" change to the official Republican Party platform at the RNC convention last summer as just one piece of evidence, plus possible compromising information against Trump as blackmail to ensure Trump upholds his part of the bargain. If this quid pro quo exists, then Putin would not pull for Clinton (with whom he had no agreement), he would pull for Trump, see?

Also, it is important to understand that from the Kremlin's point of view, sowing discord in the U.S. government is a win, no matter the outcome of the election. On that front they've already won. Russia has a long and proud history of trying to sow chaos among adversaries. You know, it wasn't a coincidence that they chose the name "KAOS" for the evil, Russian KGB stand-in in the old "Get Smart" TV show. It is and was such an obvious trait of Russia's dealings with the world that even Hollywood television show writers made fun of it.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 122
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #360 on: April 04, 2017, 10:34:47 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

It's incredible to me that the conservative side is so tribal that they happily carry water for Russia because they perceive this stance helps Trump.  The same people who, you know, were responsible for McCarthyism, are furiously spinning happy tales of Russia Should Be Our Ally!  Honestly, imagine a Reagan-era Republican looking at this right now. I can't imagine a more wholesale defeat of conservatives and conservative ideals than Trumpism.  All that remains are the grievances.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #361 on: April 05, 2017, 12:06:53 PM »
Sigh...
Insane, inane hysterical Russia-phobia.
McCarthy V2.0, except this time worse.
Back then Russia was actually a legit superpower, was winning the space and arms race, and was actually trying to take over the world.

Today's Russia has about $2Trillion GDP, less than the state of California... it's a failed superpower, a 2nd rate player. It's a gas station with some old nukes.

It's incredible to me that the conservative side is so tribal that they happily carry water for Russia because they perceive this stance helps Trump.  The same people who, you know, were responsible for McCarthyism, are furiously spinning happy tales of Russia Should Be Our Ally!  Honestly, imagine a Reagan-era Republican looking at this right now. I can't imagine a more wholesale defeat of conservatives and conservative ideals than Trumpism.  All that remains are the grievances.

So true. Hard to comprehend how the Republican party has shifted so dramatically in recent years. The recent breakdown over "repeal and replace" is just one illustration of how the party is being torn apart by the different factions.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

thesvenster

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
  • Location: Palmer, Alaska
    • My MMM Forum Journal
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #362 on: April 07, 2017, 01:03:25 PM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

Cranberries

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #363 on: April 07, 2017, 01:35:13 PM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

Authoritarian regimes (and Trump wishes he were one) routinely switch alliances and enemies depending on political whims. They need an outside enemy to unite the populace. This is basic politics, not conspiracy. Putin may have helped get Trump elected (possibly by accident), but that says nothing about how long an alliance between the two would last.

This is why I have been extremely wary of the anti-Russia obsession on the political left. It might be true that Russia interfered. It is certainly true that several of Trump's appointments had extremely strong ties to Russia. It is definitely true that stoking xenophobia and anti-other sentiment feeds into the authoritarian's hand when they decide it is time to switch the narrative.

"We've always been at war with Eastasia"

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #364 on: April 07, 2017, 01:36:09 PM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

I'll take your bait. I see no reason to change the investigation into potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian interlopers because of the recent missile strikes to Syria. You can call it "cockamamie conspiracy theories" but there's a reason investigations are being conducted by:

1. The FBI
2. The Republican-led House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
3. The Republican-led Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

The entire intelligence community has determined Russia interfered with our electoral process and purposely spread "fake news" to aid Trump. At least 6 to 8 close Trump advisers had contacts with Russian foreign agents (Manafort, Sessions, Kushner, Page, Flynn...). Trump's friggin' National Security Advisor had to step down after only 3 weeks because of it. The RNC's official platform regarding Russia was changed because Paul Manafort and another Trump senior adviser (Carter Page?? I don't recall) insisted on it at the convention, after they met with Russian operatives. It's not like the FBI goes around opening national security investigations just because some internet troll made up a conspiracy on a website. And the Congressional investigations have been launched by the president's own party -- hardly a political witch hunt. You realize all this, right?
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #365 on: April 07, 2017, 01:40:13 PM »
+1 to DoubleDown. All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 02:11:22 PM by Lagom »

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #366 on: April 07, 2017, 01:57:03 PM »
^ All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.

I know, I'm just easily baited by calls of "Bueller?? Bueller?" :-)

Plus I didn't want the Fox and Friends and Breitbart crowd to interpret silence as agreement, like we were all instantly forced back under our rocks and forced to admit how stupid we were ever to question Trump and Russian meddling in the election once we saw how Our President and Savior bravely and forcefully stood up to Syria.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #367 on: April 07, 2017, 02:10:38 PM »
^ All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.

I know, I'm just easily baited by calls of "Bueller?? Bueller?" :-)

Plus I didn't want the Fox and Friends and Breitbart crowd to interpret silence as agreement, like we were all instantly forced back under our rocks and forced to admit how stupid we were ever to question Trump and Russian meddling in the election once we saw how Our President and Savior bravely and forcefully stood up to Syria.

For sure. Should have been "+1" rather than "^" Sorry for being unclear, I am totally in agreement on all fronts!

BlueHouse

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2441
  • Location: WDC
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #368 on: April 07, 2017, 04:18:54 PM »

why would Russia try?

well, we can't fully answer that unless and until we know the full extent of Trump's business and personal dealings with foreign powers.  Releasing his tax returns would be a first step in getting more people to trust that there aren't back-channel agreements that could mean he would put his own or his family's interests ahead of the American People.

Why would he promise to release them for so long and then just go back on his word?  What is he hiding?  And I don't ask that from the standpoint of "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".  No, this man has more financial entanglements than any other official in the history of our government.  And he's a liar.  Proven repeatedly.  So we really need to verify these financial commitments that he has. 
Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8329
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #369 on: April 08, 2017, 07:38:01 AM »
And today Russia is fuming because we hit their vassal Syria. Is Prez Trump still on the take of the Russkies? Has everyone adjusted their  cockamamie conspiracy theories accordingly? Bueller??? Bueller???

"We are at war with Eastasia. We've always been at war with Eastasia."

Johnez

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 581
  • Location: Southern California
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #370 on: April 10, 2017, 11:08:21 AM »
Thanks for posting the Uranium deal links acroy. I guess all of our politicians are on the take.... Anybody flipping their lids over Trumputin romance should take a read of that NYT article-would Clinton be any less entangled? Pretty freaking depressing. Our leaders are globalist, jet setting, self enriching liars.

Poundwise

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 696
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #371 on: April 10, 2017, 02:31:33 PM »
I saw this article some time ago... http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/ 
It cites acroy's NYT article, but also adds:
"The timing of Telfer’s donations might be questionable if there was reason to believe that Hillary Clinton was instrumental in the approval of the deal with Russia, but all the evidence points to the contrary — that Clinton did not play a pivotal role, and, in fact, may not have played any role at all."
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 02:33:52 PM by Poundwise »

Tasty Pinecones

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #372 on: April 10, 2017, 04:42:18 PM »
+1 to DoubleDown. All the Trumpbots continually miss the point. It doesn't matter what Trump is doing now relative to Russia. If he/his team colluded with them during the election/transition in any way shape or form (a claim for which there is enough evidence to effect the aforementioned investigations), that's still treason and should be treated accordingly.

http://www.thebrainwashingofmydad.com/

The movie detailed some of the methods.

In short Russia gathered the email addresses and details of individuals across the country via hacking events. Then Russia identified groups of people who would be susceptible to "fake news" and who also used social media. Russia then bombarded those people with propaganda (fake news) that looked "legit". Whether there are other players involved I don't know.

Supposedly this was easier than trying to hack voting machines directly.

Steer a whole series of demographics (mostly angry white male voters) to believe whatever Russia wanted them to believe. Because this same group discounts the mainstream media as "liberal" or unreliable in other ways, and b/c this same group of people refuse to listen to reason from other sources - they are very useful to the puppeteers.

This is assuming the articles I've read and the movie are correct.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 04:45:11 PM by Tasty Pinecones »

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #373 on: May 15, 2017, 03:51:44 PM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 04:13:06 PM by Lagom »

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #374 on: May 15, 2017, 05:11:19 PM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Wonder how his supporters are going to spin this in their minds?

1) Fake news?
2) Not that big a deal?
3) LALALALALALALA I can't hear you!
4) But her emails...
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #375 on: May 15, 2017, 07:11:29 PM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Wonder how his supporters are going to spin this in their minds?

1) Fake news?
2) Not that big a deal?
3) LALALALALALALA I can't hear you!
4) But her emails...

Well McMaster denied this happened so obviously it didn't, case closed! Phew!

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3641
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #376 on: May 15, 2017, 07:15:38 PM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Wonder how his supporters are going to spin this in their minds?

1) Fake news?
2) Not that big a deal?
3) LALALALALALALA I can't hear you!
4) But her emails...

Well McMaster denied this happened so obviously it didn't, case closed! Phew!

Did you notice how precisely worded his denial was?  He used enough words that someone who blindly supports Trump would hear that it didn't happen, but the words he used are not a denial. He specifically said that they did not discuss "sources," "methods," and "military operations."  There was utter silence regarding disclosure of information.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5199
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #377 on: May 15, 2017, 07:20:55 PM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.

This is hilarious, in part because Trump is currently the President precisely because so many people were very very concerned with keeping America's secrets.  The Russians never actually hacked Hillary's emails, but they argued successfully that they had the opportunity to steal classified information from Hillary Clinton, and that she was therefore insufficiently protective of America's secrets and was thus untrustworthy to be President.

Then Trump literally sits down with the top Russian spies in America, in the oval office, and just blab blab blab fucking TELLS them classified information.  Outright.  No hacking, no stealing necessary, just tells the Russians classified information.  He spent a year attacking Hillary for making information vulnerable to being stolen, even though it wasn't stolen, and then he gets elected and just starts giving it away?

My favorite part?  The senator from Idaho who suggested this is totally fine because the President has the authority to declassify anything at any time, without any process.  So it's apparently fine for him to share classified information directly with the Russians, because he's the President and he's allowed to do that if he wants to.  Shades of "it's not illegal when the President does it."

The entire intelligence community is rolling their eyes today.  We work SO hard to keep secrets compartmentalized in this country, and the man at the top of the food chain is apparently a loudmouthed braggart who just can't shut the hell up?  How are any of our international partners supposed to trust us when the Pres himself just blabs everything to the Russians?  This is some junior high level he-said-she-said (but don't tell anyone I told you) type bullshit going on right here. 

I am so disappointed right now.  In everyone.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 08:24:40 PM by sol »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5199
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #378 on: May 15, 2017, 07:33:45 PM »
Quote
We can’t have someone in the Oval Office who doesn’t understand the meaning of the word 'confidential'.
-Donald Trump in Greenville North Carolina in September 2016

Quote
Individuals who are ‘extremely careless’ w/ classified info should be denied further access to it.
-Paul Ryan in July 2016

Quote
That is a criminal offense. That makes it an impeachable offense.
-Rep Mo Brooks (R-AL) on Hillary Clinton's potential disclosure of classified information
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 07:39:48 PM by sol »

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #379 on: May 15, 2017, 08:24:34 PM »
Did you notice how precisely worded his denial was?  He used enough words that someone who blindly supports Trump would hear that it didn't happen, but the words he used are not a denial. He specifically said that they did not discuss "sources," "methods," and "military operations."  There was utter silence regarding disclosure of information.

Good point. The article doesn't claim that he discussed sources or methods, but rather specific information that had been obtained and the city from which that information had come, which could easily lead to the source being identified.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 11:50:56 PM by Lagom »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5199
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #380 on: May 15, 2017, 08:31:10 PM »
specific information that had been obtained and the city from which that information had come, which could easily lead to the source being identified.

This evening there is an undercover MI6 agent inside an ISIS terror cell who is sweating bullets his handler is going to off him while he sleeps.  Or maybe it's a Mossad agent in Syria, .  I don't claim to have any specific information.  But the President has apparently put intelligence operatives at grave mortal risk by offering sufficient detail to the Russians to disclose specific intelligence conduits, and right now those individuals are probably not very happy about it.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #381 on: May 15, 2017, 09:07:43 PM »
Here is an interesting legal analysis of the situation as it stands from the information we currently possess, albeit the end clearly indicates their overall opinion of the president regardless of this situation (one that I personally share but YMMV).

https://www.lawfareblog.com/bombshell-initial-thoughts-washington-posts-game-changing-story

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #382 on: May 15, 2017, 09:09:12 PM »
specific information that had been obtained and the city from which that information had come, which could easily lead to the source being identified.

This evening there is an undercover MI6 agent inside an ISIS terror cell who is sweating bullets his handler is going to off him while he sleeps.  Or maybe it's a Mossad agent in Syria, .  I don't claim to have any specific information.  But the President has apparently put intelligence operatives at grave mortal risk by offering sufficient detail to the Russians to disclose specific intelligence conduits, and right now those individuals are probably not very happy about it.

One can only hope that when (if?) we recover from this travesty of an administration we can rebuild some of the trust lost in the international community.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
  • Age: 185
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #383 on: May 15, 2017, 09:44:45 PM »
specific information that had been obtained and the city from which that information had come, which could easily lead to the source being identified.

This evening there is an undercover MI6 agent inside an ISIS terror cell who is sweating bullets his handler is going to off him while he sleeps.  Or maybe it's a Mossad agent in Syria, .  I don't claim to have any specific information.  But the President has apparently put intelligence operatives at grave mortal risk by offering sufficient detail to the Russians to disclose specific intelligence conduits, and right now those individuals are probably not very happy about it.

One can only hope that when (if?) we recover from this travesty of an administration we can rebuild some of the trust lost in the international community.

Remember when we were saying thus at the end of Bush's presidency? Good times. Good times.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #384 on: May 15, 2017, 09:55:08 PM »
specific information that had been obtained and the city from which that information had come, which could easily lead to the source being identified.

This evening there is an undercover MI6 agent inside an ISIS terror cell who is sweating bullets his handler is going to off him while he sleeps.  Or maybe it's a Mossad agent in Syria, .  I don't claim to have any specific information.  But the President has apparently put intelligence operatives at grave mortal risk by offering sufficient detail to the Russians to disclose specific intelligence conduits, and right now those individuals are probably not very happy about it.

One can only hope that when (if?) we recover from this travesty of an administration we can rebuild some of the trust lost in the international community.

Remember when we were saying thus at the end of Bush's presidency? Good times. Good times.

Well at least Bush can decisively vacate his claim to the "worst president in modern history" title. Pretty impressive, in a way, that Trump has so quickly taken a bigly lead on that front.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 09:57:37 PM by Lagom »

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3641
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #385 on: May 15, 2017, 10:14:06 PM »
specific information that had been obtained and the city from which that information had come, which could easily lead to the source being identified.

This evening there is an undercover MI6 agent inside an ISIS terror cell who is sweating bullets his handler is going to off him while he sleeps.  Or maybe it's a Mossad agent in Syria, .  I don't claim to have any specific information.  But the President has apparently put intelligence operatives at grave mortal risk by offering sufficient detail to the Russians to disclose specific intelligence conduits, and right now those individuals are probably not very happy about it.

One can only hope that when (if?) we recover from this travesty of an administration we can rebuild some of the trust lost in the international community.

Ironic that Trump's letter firing Comey stated "It is essential that we find new leadership for the FBI that restores public trust and confidence" -- and...now this, a week later. Public trust and confidence of the FBI is not a concern, lol.

Tasty Pinecones

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #386 on: May 16, 2017, 07:45:09 AM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Wonder how his supporters are going to spin this in their minds?

1) Fake news?
2) Not that big a deal?
3) LALALALALALALA I can't hear you!
4) But her emails...

And don't forget that oldie but goodie: Bengahzi....

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #387 on: May 16, 2017, 08:43:15 AM »
Zombie thread! Lookey here what Mr. Trump did in a closed-door meeting to which American journalists were not invited (but Russian media was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?utm_term=.0d766f40ae4c

Revealing info so highly classified that we hadn't even shared it with our closest allies? Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Wonder how his supporters are going to spin this in their minds?

1) Fake news?
2) Not that big a deal?
3) LALALALALALALA I can't hear you!
4) But her emails...

And don't forget that oldie but goodie: Bengahzi....

How could I forget?

And the answer is: all of the above: 
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #388 on: May 16, 2017, 11:25:06 AM »
https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/864448127813783552

I would say "ROFL" except I want to puke.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #389 on: May 16, 2017, 11:54:12 AM »
Also, even if he's impeached (which at this point seems pretty much impossible), doesn't that just make Trump an even bigger security risk? He knows way too much and if I'm a foreign intelligence agency, I'm already plotting how to get to him if/when he's out of office. I highly doubt he would be any more restrained then...

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #390 on: May 16, 2017, 11:55:56 AM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

-Who actually had Russia ties? Hillary via Clinton Foundation
-Where did the 'Trump/Russia' story come from? Hillary, via Podesta
-Where is proof, actual verifiable facts (not just 'anonymous sources') of Trump/Russia connection? nowhere

In the meantime life goes on. Time to get back to it. I like MMM's 'Circle of Concern' graphic enough to post it again.

O hey, my net worth hit a record high yesterday, one more day closer to FI. Thanks Trump Effect!

Carry on.
SWAMI (Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individual) 1 stash, 1 DW, 7 Mini MM's...
God, Family, Country. Everything else is details.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #391 on: May 16, 2017, 12:10:36 PM »
Good to know you are just as hyper-partisan as ever acroy. Indeed, nevermind that after carefully "denying" that anything improper was said, the words directly out of the mouths of Trump and his lackies have subsequently and explicitly acknowledged his leaking of highly classified intel. Like, that is literally undeniable except through a single-minded commitment to ignorance. So what do Trumpbots like you do? All of the things Kris listed, of course, or else take a big old bite of the "he's president so he can do whatever he wants" shit sandwich and try to regurgitate it back to the rest of us with assurances that people who don't take a big old spoonful are the crazy ones.

But you're right, even though I am not a Democrat, by disagreeing with your stance that Trump is incapable of making mistakes I must be part of the "increasingly small" minority of Americans who disapproves of him. All of the polls that say otherwise (and by increasing margins) are fake news, of course.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 12:16:56 PM by Lagom »

OurTown

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Memphis, Tenn.
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #392 on: May 16, 2017, 12:13:40 PM »
How Trump ultimately leaves the White House:

1)  Walks out on Jan. 20, 2021?  (we won't survive that long)
2)  Impeached?  (not likely with this Congress)
3)  Removed by Pence & the Cabinet under the 25th Am.?  (hmmmm)
4)  In a pine box?  (he doesn't look very healthy)
5)  Gets bored and resigns?  (hope springs eternal)
6)  White House destroyed in nuclear retaliation?  (hope not)
7)  Seeks asylum in Russia?  (this one has possibilities)

Timodeus

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 55
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #393 on: May 16, 2017, 12:39:49 PM »
Good to know you are just as hyper-partisan as ever acroy. Indeed, nevermind that after carefully "denying" that anything improper was said, the words directly out of the mouths of Trump and his lackies have subsequently and explicitly acknowledged his leaking of highly classified intel. Like, that is literally undeniable except through a single-minded commitment to ignorance. So what do Trumpbots like you do? All of the things Kris listed, of course, or else take a big old bite of the "he's president so he can do whatever he wants" shit sandwich and try to regurgitate it back to the rest of us with assurances that people who don't take a big old spoonful are the crazy ones.

But you're right, even though I am not a Democrat, by disagreeing with your stance that Trump is incapable of making mistakes I must be part of the "increasingly small" minority of Americans who disapproves of him. All of the polls that say otherwise (and by increasing margins) are fake news, of course.

I'm not a Democrat either, in fact many would think of my wife and I as part of "Trump's base", i.e. we're white, Christian, socially conservative, and my wife is Russian (mistakenly believed to love Putin). We're utterly appalled by Trump and his associates. Several friends I've engaged in political discussion in the past are now intolerable to talk to, it's a non-stop whinefest of how bad the other party is. One friend even labeled me a "Socialist" because I took a pragmatic opinion on the state of our country. If I don't read, listen, and watch HIS sources which by the way are just right-wing personalities or as he calls them-"Independent Media" (think Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Alex Jones), then I am brainwashed by the mainstream media. Feels like I live in a giant mental institution.

I was a Republican until 5 months ago. Trump and the utter disregard of my former party to my fellow countrymen pushed me into what I suppose is purgatory in American politics-Independent. My only hope now is that the Democrats either moderate (not likely) or the Republicans come back from the fringe (not looking likely now either) or a new 3rd party establishes itself like Macron in France somewhere in the middle. These are pretty dark days for our Republic.

Wexler

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 122
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #394 on: May 16, 2017, 12:50:43 PM »
Looks like we have BINGO. Fake news, not a big deal, I can't hear you, but her emails.

Oddly, I can't find acroy's posts about the Obama Effect during the market runup of the last 8 years, since anyone credibly invested in the market had to have several net worth highs in that time period.  But, I'm happy to do it for him: Thanks, Obama.

Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

-Who actually had Russia ties? Hillary via Clinton Foundation
-Where did the 'Trump/Russia' story come from? Hillary, via Podesta
-Where is proof, actual verifiable facts (not just 'anonymous sources') of Trump/Russia connection? nowhere

In the meantime life goes on. Time to get back to it. I like MMM's 'Circle of Concern' graphic enough to post it again.

O hey, my net worth hit a record high yesterday, one more day closer to FI. Thanks Trump Effect!

Carry on.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Age: 34
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #395 on: May 16, 2017, 12:54:30 PM »
I really wish the DNC had imploded more thoroughly after the Bernie Sanders fiasco. The establishment wings of both parties are cancerous, although I really never thought someone like Trump would be given the keys to the kingdom so enthusiastically just because he belonged to one of those "sides."

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #396 on: May 16, 2017, 01:10:53 PM »

I was a Republican until 5 months ago. Trump and the utter disregard of my former party to my fellow countrymen pushed me into what I suppose is purgatory in American politics-Independent. My only hope now is that the Democrats either moderate (not likely) or the Republicans come back from the fringe (not looking likely now either) or a new 3rd party establishes itself like Macron in France somewhere in the middle. These are pretty dark days for our Republic.
One could argue that you've remained a Republican while the party cleaved significantly from its former values.  In July '16 I wrote a post about how much the GOP platform had changed and asked the somewhat retorical question: if you believed in the earlier values, what are you now?

...
Oddly, I can't find acroy's posts about the Obama Effect during the market runup of the last 8 years, since anyone credibly invested in the market had to have several net worth highs in that time period.  But, I'm happy to do it for him: Thanks, Obama.
I don't attribute this to anything, but the largest run-ups to my family's wealth (first my parents and now mine) occurred under Clinton and then Obama. We'll see what happens under DJT, but I've never credited or faulted a president for the state of the economy during their first 100 days (too soon).
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #397 on: May 16, 2017, 01:30:23 PM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

-Who actually had Russia ties? Hillary via Clinton Foundation
-Where did the 'Trump/Russia' story come from? Hillary, via Podesta
-Where is proof, actual verifiable facts (not just 'anonymous sources') of Trump/Russia connection? nowhere

In the meantime life goes on. Time to get back to it. I like MMM's 'Circle of Concern' graphic enough to post it again.

O hey, my net worth hit a record high yesterday, one more day closer to FI. Thanks Trump Effect!

Carry on.

Damn, you hit all four with one post! BINGO! Nice!

You did miss the bonus "Benghazi" points, though. Sad!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 01:33:09 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #398 on: May 16, 2017, 02:30:56 PM »
Aannnndd the intelligence source country that Trump betrayed by sharing their classified information with Russia is... Israel. Yup. And now Iran has information about their intelligence gathering systems.  Trump has just given Israel a reason to stop sharing information with us -- as well as our other allies, who can't possibly think he's trustworthy going forward.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

nereo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6129
  • Location: la belle province
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #399 on: May 16, 2017, 02:40:35 PM »
Aannnndd the intelligence source country that Trump betrayed by sharing their classified information with Russia is... Israel. Yup. And now Iran has information about their intelligence gathering systems.  Trump has just given Israel a reason to stop sharing information with us -- as well as our other allies, who can't possibly think he's trustworthy going forward.
Adding to that, Russia's closest ally in the region is Iran - Israel's mortal enemy. Wittingly or not, DJT may have just handed Iran some nice crumbs about Israeli intelligence gathering all on the eve of Trump's 9 day international trip which includes a stop in Israel.

Speaking of the upcoming trip, I think we've effectively set the bar for "success" at "did not start an international incident".  oy vey!
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"