Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 518389 times)

talltexan

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1950 on: October 18, 2019, 06:58:53 AM »
Republican party supporters unaccountably quiet at the moment.  Can't think why.

Maybe a hopeful sign that they've started to pay attention to facts that run contrary to their worldview?  Because usually there's just a flood of lies and half-truths immediately forwarded as a reason to support Trump.

I don't see this. I see a lot of "Republicans" claiming that Biden's corruption is the real problem.

Now that Mulvaney has admitted the Quid-pro-quo, it'll be interesting to see how they modify their defenses of the President.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1951 on: October 18, 2019, 07:07:19 AM »
Republican party supporters unaccountably quiet at the moment.  Can't think why.

Maybe a hopeful sign that they've started to pay attention to facts that run contrary to their worldview?  Because usually there's just a flood of lies and half-truths immediately forwarded as a reason to support Trump.

I don't see this. I see a lot of "Republicans" claiming that Biden's corruption is the real problem.


This just blows my mind.  It's not the conduct of the actual, current president that we should be concerned about, it's the conduct of a potential future president's son.

Well, Elizabeth Warren is leading according to many polls.  Which means pretty soon we'll be treated to all sorts of half-cocked stories claiming Warren's involved in some illegal activity.  Hopefully even the GOP can admit 'Pocahantas' is a dead horse, and one that doesn't make them look particularly tolerant.

talltexan

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1952 on: October 18, 2019, 07:09:18 AM »
Day 1000 of the Trump Presidency started with Trump's classy tweet honoring Congressman Elijah Cummings. I read that tweet, and my first thought was "Maybe I've been wrong about this Trump guy all along." That perhaps he'd just had a bad week*

In the next twelve hours, we had
  • Pence's Capitulation to Erdogan regarding Syria
  • Sondland's testimony in front of the House committee about Ukraine
  • A judge rule Bill Barr had redacted things from the Mueller report that shouldn't have been redacted
  • Mulvaney's press conference in which he admitted the Quid-pro-quo
  • Trump's legal team say Mulvaney's press conference didn't involve them
  • Rick Perry resign as Secretary of Energy
  • The announcement that Trump's Doral Resort would host the G7
  • Trump's Texas rally, in which he reminded Houstonians how much money they'd made from Hurrican Harvey in 2017

I don't think this is even a complete list. The scandals pile up so quickly, yet here in NC everyone I talk to insists that people are just out to keep Trump from magnanimously fixing every thing.

*yes, many bad things already happened this week, including the Pelosi confrontation and making the British parents come face-to-face with the American who'd killed their son in an auto accident and the NYT report coming out that he'd committed tax fraud with reporting rental income on his properties while Deutsche Bank basically admitted they'd thrown out his tax returns because snitches get stitches.

former player

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1953 on: October 18, 2019, 07:19:52 AM »
  • The announcement that Trump's Doral Resort would host the G7

If whoever is the then current UK Prime Minister rocks up at Trump Doral for the G7 next year they will be committing a criminal offence under the UK Bribery Act 2010.  See section 6 -

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/section/6

Potential penalties are an unlimited fine and up to 10 years in prison.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/section/11

GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1954 on: October 18, 2019, 07:29:42 AM »
  • The announcement that Trump's Doral Resort would host the G7

If whoever is the then current UK Prime Minister rocks up at Trump Doral for the G7 next year they will be committing a criminal offence under the UK Bribery Act 2010.  See section 6 -

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/section/6

Potential penalties are an unlimited fine and up to 10 years in prison.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/23/section/11

I'm sure that Trump would be fine with Putin filling in for any missing party from the UK.

EvenSteven

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1955 on: October 18, 2019, 07:51:15 AM »
Mulvaney is trying to normalize foreign aid quid-pro-quo. I assume that's an attempt to keep Fox conservatives in line but it seems like a dangerous tactic.

Oops... after telling a group of assembled reporters with recorders and cameras that Trump withheld aid in order to pressure Ukraine to help the DOJ investigate Hunter Biden he's now saying that the two were unrelated.  So Trump withheld aid.  And he pressured Ukraine to investigate Biden.  At the same time.  But there's no link.  Or something.

It's bizarre. Was this completely Trump's idea and then wiser people (like his lawyers) told Trump to retract? Is Mulvaney trying to get his boss impeached? Or it was a poor tactic from the impeachment warroom that backfired?

Sound bite dream for the Dems.

In a fascinating move, the White House's official lawyer, Jay Sekulow issued a one-sentence statement that said, “The President’s legal counsel was not involved in acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney’s press briefing."

So the WH's Chief of Staff conduct is being disowned by the WH legal council...

The presidents personal lawyers are different people and have very different roles that the white house counsel. I think it is more like the WH's chief of staff conduct is being disavowed by the presidents personal lawyers.

partgypsy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1956 on: October 18, 2019, 09:55:24 AM »
This whole sh*tshow that is the Trump presidency is getting to absurdist levels. I keep thinking, so who went back in time and stepped on a butterfly for us to have gotten to this reality?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sound_of_Thunder
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 10:22:01 AM by partgypsy »

Davnasty

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1957 on: October 18, 2019, 10:02:44 AM »
This whole sh*tshow that is the Trump presidency is getting to absurdist levels. I keep thinking, so who went back in time and stepped on a butterfly for us to have gotten to this reality?

I don't believe time travel is possible but I can definitely see young Trump stomping on butterflies. Especially if they were getting more attention than him.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1958 on: October 18, 2019, 11:02:20 AM »
Not my ideas, but I've heard laments that the past 3 years proves how much norms and propriety really did play in keeping politicians and those adjacent to politics in line somewhat, and thought yeah, that seems to partially explain why it feels so different today than it did back in 2012 or even 2004 and 2000.

Then yesterday I was listening to Ezra Klein's podcast with Peter Pomerantsev, which is a very good but also not very optimistic view on how media and politics changed in Russia in the 90s, and has spread to Europe, USA, and other countries more recently. But Ezra makes a point that it seems the actual real difference between before and now comes down purely to shame. Most politicians or other public figures, when confronted with evidence of wrongdoing, either feel enough shame to step down, or those around them feel it and the person loses power. But Trump appears to be purely shameless, as is most nearly everyone around him or who profits from him (politically as well as monetarily, I'm looking at you Mark Zuckerberg and other media owners).

The question is, has a Pandora's box been opened, or is this just a once in a lifetime alignment of several low probability events and types of people, and we shouldn't expect to see this continue to play out in future elections and time periods?

MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1959 on: October 18, 2019, 11:06:15 AM »
Mulvaney is trying to normalize foreign aid quid-pro-quo. I assume that's an attempt to keep Fox conservatives in line but it seems like a dangerous tactic.

Oops... after telling a group of assembled reporters with recorders and cameras that Trump withheld aid in order to pressure Ukraine to help the DOJ investigate Hunter Biden he's now saying that the two were unrelated.  So Trump withheld aid.  And he pressured Ukraine to investigate Biden.  At the same time.  But there's no link.  Or something.

It's bizarre. Was this completely Trump's idea and then wiser people (like his lawyers) told Trump to retract? Is Mulvaney trying to get his boss impeached? Or it was a poor tactic from the impeachment warroom that backfired?

Sound bite dream for the Dems.

In a fascinating move, the White House's official lawyer, Jay Sekulow issued a one-sentence statement that said, “The President’s legal counsel was not involved in acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney’s press briefing."

So the WH's Chief of Staff conduct is being disowned by the WH legal council...

This utter shit show is hilarious. Everything follows the same path. Starts out as Trump doing nothing wrong and it's all a witch hunt. And ends with, so what it happens all the time and besides, it's not illegal.
I've been following The Trump show as light relief from Brexit.  With Trump's betrayal of the Kurds, leading to their murder and likely genocide, the hilarity has ended.

Absolutely, it's appalling. I was referring more specifically to his own administration contradicting him and then claiming it's perfectly ok. Pulling out of Syria and letting our allies die is an entirely other level of horrendous and inhumane.

Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1960 on: October 18, 2019, 07:58:02 PM »
The Russians are running in to fill a strategic power vacuum left by the US abandonment in an area that happens to be advantageous for their natural gas interests? Shocked! Shocked, I say! It's almost as if they saw it coming!
https://www.newsandguts.com/russians-move-into-syrian-kurdish-region-abandoned-by-u-s-forces/?fbclid=IwAR0U3iScZnFX-bco3BH8As8lhvjGghg7zstXQLLCBmMRPQAHPvKSe8naba0

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1961 on: October 19, 2019, 07:06:28 AM »
The Russians are running in to fill a strategic power vacuum left by the US abandonment in an area that happens to be advantageous for their natural gas interests? Shocked! Shocked, I say! It's almost as if they saw it coming!
https://www.newsandguts.com/russians-move-into-syrian-kurdish-region-abandoned-by-u-s-forces/?fbclid=IwAR0U3iScZnFX-bco3BH8As8lhvjGghg7zstXQLLCBmMRPQAHPvKSe8naba0
SAW it coming, or actively worked to get Trump to pull US troops out of Syria?

Russia wins the match here.  US forfeited.  Kurds get slaughtered and oppressed for god knows how much longer. Erdogan stays in power. Like it or not that’s the net result of this fiasco.

MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1962 on: October 19, 2019, 10:42:04 AM »
Russia is enjoying so much winning.

GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1963 on: October 19, 2019, 12:08:14 PM »
Vote Trump 2020 - Make America A Puppet Again

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1964 on: October 19, 2019, 04:10:16 PM »
Vote Trump 2020 - Make America A Puppet Again

I like that.

How about a hammer and sickle watermark and a picture of Putin leering in the background.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1965 on: October 21, 2019, 05:52:05 PM »
The Russians are running in to fill a strategic power vacuum left by the US abandonment in an area that happens to be advantageous for their natural gas interests? Shocked! Shocked, I say! It's almost as if they saw it coming!
https://www.newsandguts.com/russians-move-into-syrian-kurdish-region-abandoned-by-u-s-forces/?fbclid=IwAR0U3iScZnFX-bco3BH8As8lhvjGghg7zstXQLLCBmMRPQAHPvKSe8naba0
SAW it coming, or actively worked to get Trump to pull US troops out of Syria?

Russia wins the match here.  US forfeited.  Kurds get slaughtered and oppressed for god knows how much longer. Erdogan stays in power. Like it or not that’s the net result of this fiasco.
All of those items are downsides for the US only if you believe it should continue being the de facto global cop; it's also interesting to note how much criticism the US garnered historically in carrying out its enforcement of the post-WW2 global order.

I'm not sure how much of a long-term win any of this is for Russia. Assuming they are still pursuing their Neo-Eurasianism geopolitical objectives (e.g. Alexander Dugin), they can have their turn screwing around in the ME at great cost.

Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1966 on: October 21, 2019, 06:24:51 PM »
The Russians are running in to fill a strategic power vacuum left by the US abandonment in an area that happens to be advantageous for their natural gas interests? Shocked! Shocked, I say! It's almost as if they saw it coming!
https://www.newsandguts.com/russians-move-into-syrian-kurdish-region-abandoned-by-u-s-forces/?fbclid=IwAR0U3iScZnFX-bco3BH8As8lhvjGghg7zstXQLLCBmMRPQAHPvKSe8naba0
SAW it coming, or actively worked to get Trump to pull US troops out of Syria?

Russia wins the match here.  US forfeited.  Kurds get slaughtered and oppressed for god knows how much longer. Erdogan stays in power. Like it or not that’s the net result of this fiasco.
All of those items are downsides for the US only if you believe it should continue being the de facto global cop; it's also interesting to note how much criticism the US garnered historically in carrying out its enforcement of the post-WW2 global order.

I'm not sure how much of a long-term win any of this is for Russia. Assuming they are still pursuing their Neo-Eurasianism geopolitical objectives (e.g. Alexander Dugin), they can have their turn screwing around in the ME at great cost.
Except that Russia's southern borders along the Black and Caspian seas pretty much put them in the ME neighborhood as a function of geography, even if just a country outside of what is formally considered ME. Russia is interested in influence in the area in part due to nostalgia for former superpower status, but also because of the geopolitical and economic benefits of pipelines to the EU. This serves the oligarchy's pocketbooks and Putin's political ambitions. This is bad for the EU (acknowledging that they would also have to agree to buy the gas, but...), bad for our alliances, and the current situation is especially bad for NATO. The current situation shows both the weaknesses and the need for a continued strong NATO. That Turkey is increasingly aligning with Russia and making loud noises about wanting to join the nuclear arms club does not help; Russia is likely to help Turkey with this given their prior support to Iran, etc. Nuclear proliferation in the ME is strategically bad for not only the US, but the whole world.

Saying that we are there only to be the world's cops is an easy way to write off our valid strategic interests in the area. Those interests are super complicated and internally contradictory at times. But yeah, I think Russia is pretty pleased about all aspects of this right now and will be plenty happy to be screwing around in the ME with less constraint for a while. The US has not been a beacon of morality in our military actions in the area (ahem, Iraq invasion), but we are a hell of a lot better than Russia is and has been. 

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1967 on: October 21, 2019, 06:49:51 PM »
The Russians are running in to fill a strategic power vacuum left by the US abandonment in an area that happens to be advantageous for their natural gas interests? Shocked! Shocked, I say! It's almost as if they saw it coming!
https://www.newsandguts.com/russians-move-into-syrian-kurdish-region-abandoned-by-u-s-forces/?fbclid=IwAR0U3iScZnFX-bco3BH8As8lhvjGghg7zstXQLLCBmMRPQAHPvKSe8naba0
SAW it coming, or actively worked to get Trump to pull US troops out of Syria?

Russia wins the match here.  US forfeited.  Kurds get slaughtered and oppressed for god knows how much longer. Erdogan stays in power. Like it or not that’s the net result of this fiasco.
All of those items are downsides for the US only if you believe it should continue being the de facto global cop; it's also interesting to note how much criticism the US garnered historically in carrying out its enforcement of the post-WW2 global order.

I'm not sure how much of a long-term win any of this is for Russia. Assuming they are still pursuing their Neo-Eurasianism geopolitical objectives (e.g. Alexander Dugin), they can have their turn screwing around in the ME at great cost.
Except that Russia's southern borders along the Black and Caspian seas pretty much put them in the ME neighborhood as a function of geography, even if just a country outside of what is formally considered ME. Russia is interested in influence in the area in part due to nostalgia for former superpower status, but also because of the geopolitical and economic benefits of pipelines to the EU. This serves the oligarchy's pocketbooks and Putin's political ambitions. This is bad for the EU (acknowledging that they would also have to agree to buy the gas, but...), bad for our alliances, and the current situation is especially bad for NATO. The current situation shows both the weaknesses and the need for a continued strong NATO. That Turkey is increasingly aligning with Russia and making loud noises about wanting to join the nuclear arms club does not help; Russia is likely to help Turkey with this given their prior support to Iran, etc. Nuclear proliferation in the ME is strategically bad for not only the US, but the whole world.

Saying that we are there only to be the world's cops is an easy way to write off our valid strategic interests in the area. Those interests are super complicated and internally contradictory at times. But yeah, I think Russia is pretty pleased about all aspects of this right now and will be plenty happy to be screwing around in the ME with less constraint for a while. The US has not been a beacon of morality in our military actions in the area (ahem, Iraq invasion), but we are a hell of a lot better than Russia is and has been.
Quite likely, the dominance of the US within NATO has disincentivized Europe from forming a more coherent European-based opposition to Russian threats (both military and economic via natural gas supplies). I quoted Maçães elsewhere where he states that the current EU has had the privilege of growing up "in a controlled environment" -- a reference to how the US security umbrella has fostered the one-dimensional bureaucratic rules-based manner in which the EU flexes its muscle internationally. Eurocrats have international power only inasmuch as access to their markets are desirable to other countries and their security backstopped by NATO (i.e. the US). People who were born when WW2 ended in Europe are now 74 years old and Europe evidently still doesn't have the hard- or soft-power clout to counter a much-diminished Russian empire to its east. Why should the US assume most of this burden and then be saddled with all of the blame when things go inevitably wrong*?

*This statement is directed towards those who believe there is an "easy button" in geopolitics and wonder why US presidents don't ever just hit it and relax. I don't think you are such a person; however, as an aside, I would like to point out how easy it is to criticize any US president of any party on geopolitics because, quite often, there are no good options and one's assessment of a decision is nothing more than a partisan Rorschach test.

talltexan

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1968 on: October 22, 2019, 08:50:24 AM »
I was thinking that NATO was pretty much what allowed Germany not to go full-on communist bloc, but maybe I assumed too much?

Keeping the world's most dynamic developed export economy as a market system seems like a win.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1969 on: October 22, 2019, 09:35:29 AM »
I’m sure a marketing director would say NATO suffers from poor branding.  NATO isn’t a “European Organization” that the US ‘happens’ to belong to, nor was WWII a ‘European War’ that the US came in out of benevolence to win.  The net benefits that we’ve gotten from NATO have been immense, and a fraction of what another war would cost in blood and treasure.  The contributions which other NATO states have made are largely (and often intentionally) underrepresented for the size of their economies.
Likewise, Russia isn’t ‘Europe’s problem’ simply based on a rather incomplete view of geography (Russia is largely an Asian nation, and geographically is closer to the US than France or Italy or the UK).

Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1970 on: October 22, 2019, 10:30:29 AM »
*This statement is directed towards those who believe there is an "easy button" in geopolitics and wonder why US presidents don't ever just hit it and relax. I don't think you are such a person; however, as an aside, I would like to point out how easy it is to criticize any US president of any party on geopolitics because, quite often, there are no good options and one's assessment of a decision is nothing more than a partisan Rorschach test.

Your point on political Rorschach test is well taken, and is seen in many facets of political discourse. Objectively, I think there is little to defend in Trump's actions on Syria over the last weeks. Getting out of Syria is a fine position to have. The manner in which it was done, apparently without substantive consult with the military or our allies, is strategically stupid and a terrible example to set in terms of abandoning allies. Why should the rest of NATO trust the US after the last years of Trump's actions? The adverse response to Trump's actions has been bipartisan. There is no easy button in geopolitics. Sure would be nice if Trump knew that.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1971 on: October 22, 2019, 08:30:07 PM »
I was thinking that NATO was pretty much what allowed Germany not to go full-on communist bloc, but maybe I assumed too much?

Keeping the world's most dynamic developed export economy as a market system seems like a win.
I'm not doubting the historic importance of NATO in that regard--just its current relevance and the set of incentives it provides to its European members.

I’m sure a marketing director would say NATO suffers from poor branding.  NATO isn’t a “European Organization” that the US ‘happens’ to belong to, nor was WWII a ‘European War’ that the US came in out of benevolence to win.  The net benefits that we’ve gotten from NATO have been immense, and a fraction of what another war would cost in blood and treasure.  The contributions which other NATO states have made are largely (and often intentionally) underrepresented for the size of their economies.
Likewise, Russia isn’t ‘Europe’s problem’ simply based on a rather incomplete view of geography (Russia is largely an Asian nation, and geographically is closer to the US than France or Italy or the UK).
Russia is mainly a Eurasian problem and not primarily an American one (also, the center of population in Russia is far from the US and the seat of power {Moscow} is even closer to Europe). Why should the US be on the front lines all the time? Maybe the shift in thought is hard to make now that the US has underwritten the global system for so long now. The US will always have geopolitical objectives everywhere in the world, just like every other country. It doesn't have to act on every single one and by being more reticent encourages regional powers to learn to carry out policing and self-defense tasks.

*This statement is directed towards those who believe there is an "easy button" in geopolitics and wonder why US presidents don't ever just hit it and relax. I don't think you are such a person; however, as an aside, I would like to point out how easy it is to criticize any US president of any party on geopolitics because, quite often, there are no good options and one's assessment of a decision is nothing more than a partisan Rorschach test.

Your point on political Rorschach test is well taken, and is seen in many facets of political discourse. Objectively, I think there is little to defend in Trump's actions on Syria over the last weeks. Getting out of Syria is a fine position to have. The manner in which it was done, apparently without substantive consult with the military or our allies, is strategically stupid and a terrible example to set in terms of abandoning allies. Why should the rest of NATO trust the US after the last years of Trump's actions? The adverse response to Trump's actions has been bipartisan. There is no easy button in geopolitics. Sure would be nice if Trump knew that.
I would never defend Trump's tactics--and thinking that he has any sort of coherent strategy is even more deluded. However, sometimes he might grasp onto an interesting idea by pure accident. I don't know that he is here but I am trying to argue in favor of a different way to conceptualize US foreign policy. No single sundae makes a person fat, but to stop getting fatter, eventually you have decide to stop having them all the time. Defending the Kurds again this one time might feel righteous but that same line of thinking leads to the various examples of US overreach and resulting blowback that litter the pages of history.

Having NATO distrust the US is precisely the idea (to quote President Muffley). Europe is too complacent and probably would benefit in the long run from being unshielded from the outside world.

Regarding the Rorschach test, yes everything is one in the polarized environment we live in but I think it's easiest of all in foreign policy to make unfalsifiable claims. As difficult domestic policy is to craft within the context of a rules-based state, the anarchy of global foreign affairs is much more poorly constrained and poorly understood.


{{finally, I hope everyone realizes I don't necessarily believe any of this but it is a compelling argument I have been considering recently. I believe this viewpoint needs to be more broadly considered because maybe we are too complacent with the world order of the last 3/4 century and not ready for what may come next}}

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1972 on: October 23, 2019, 01:53:33 AM »
****quote " Defending the Kurds again this one time might feel righteous but that same line of thinking leads to the various examples of US overreach and resulting blowback that litter the pages of history. "***

 Yes , but pulling out of Syria, than in the same week, announcing we are sending 2000-3000 troops and equiptment to Saudi Arabia , does not convincingly promote a strategy of withdrawal from Middle East.  I'm not sure what they will even do there, make a human daisy chain holding hands around the oil fields ? does that stop drones....?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1973 on: October 23, 2019, 04:47:11 AM »
Well the goalposts certainly have been moved very quickly.  In the span of a week we've gone from: 1) The conversation between Trump and Ukraine was "Perfect" to 2) well we held up aid, but there was no quid-pro-quo, to 3) well aid eventually flowed and it was just Trump trying to assert pressure - there was no quid-pro-quo if you look beyond that one phone call to 4) there's nothing wrong with quid-pro-quos - it only matters who the quo is.

This is literally the line that's being pushed out by the WH defenders this morning.  Up is down and black is white, and all these tepid defenses about "waiting for all the facts" and how the allegatons "if true are concerning" can all be brushed aside, because what matters is who Trump was cutting a quid-pro-quo with.  Trump was making a deal with an ally, see?  And anything done between friends can't be wrong.

GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1974 on: October 23, 2019, 07:25:00 AM »
Well the goalposts certainly have been moved very quickly.  In the span of a week we've gone from: 1) The conversation between Trump and Ukraine was "Perfect" to 2) well we held up aid, but there was no quid-pro-quo, to 3) well aid eventually flowed and it was just Trump trying to assert pressure - there was no quid-pro-quo if you look beyond that one phone call to 4) there's nothing wrong with quid-pro-quos - it only matters who the quo is.

This is literally the line that's being pushed out by the WH defenders this morning.  Up is down and black is white, and all these tepid defenses about "waiting for all the facts" and how the allegatons "if true are concerning" can all be brushed aside, because what matters is who Trump was cutting a quid-pro-quo with.  Trump was making a deal with an ally, see?  And anything done between friends can't be wrong.




You probably believe that vaccines prevent disease, that the holocaust happened, and that climate change is real.  Next you'll be telling me smoking causes cancer.  Wake up and smell the deep state conspiracy.

partgypsy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1975 on: October 23, 2019, 07:36:07 AM »
I was thinking that NATO was pretty much what allowed Germany not to go full-on communist bloc, but maybe I assumed too much?

Keeping the world's most dynamic developed export economy as a market system seems like a win.
I'm not doubting the historic importance of NATO in that regard--just its current relevance and the set of incentives it provides to its European members.

I’m sure a marketing director would say NATO suffers from poor branding.  NATO isn’t a “European Organization” that the US ‘happens’ to belong to, nor was WWII a ‘European War’ that the US came in out of benevolence to win.  The net benefits that we’ve gotten from NATO have been immense, and a fraction of what another war would cost in blood and treasure.  The contributions which other NATO states have made are largely (and often intentionally) underrepresented for the size of their economies.
Likewise, Russia isn’t ‘Europe’s problem’ simply based on a rather incomplete view of geography (Russia is largely an Asian nation, and geographically is closer to the US than France or Italy or the UK).
Russia is mainly a Eurasian problem and not primarily an American one (also, the center of population in Russia is far from the US and the seat of power {Moscow} is even closer to Europe). Why should the US be on the front lines all the time? Maybe the shift in thought is hard to make now that the US has underwritten the global system for so long now. The US will always have geopolitical objectives everywhere in the world, just like every other country. It doesn't have to act on every single one and by being more reticent encourages regional powers to learn to carry out policing and self-defense tasks.

*This statement is directed towards those who believe there is an "easy button" in geopolitics and wonder why US presidents don't ever just hit it and relax. I don't think you are such a person; however, as an aside, I would like to point out how easy it is to criticize any US president of any party on geopolitics because, quite often, there are no good options and one's assessment of a decision is nothing more than a partisan Rorschach test.

Your point on political Rorschach test is well taken, and is seen in many facets of political discourse. Objectively, I think there is little to defend in Trump's actions on Syria over the last weeks. Getting out of Syria is a fine position to have. The manner in which it was done, apparently without substantive consult with the military or our allies, is strategically stupid and a terrible example to set in terms of abandoning allies. Why should the rest of NATO trust the US after the last years of Trump's actions? The adverse response to Trump's actions has been bipartisan. There is no easy button in geopolitics. Sure would be nice if Trump knew that.
I would never defend Trump's tactics--and thinking that he has any sort of coherent strategy is even more deluded. However, sometimes he might grasp onto an interesting idea by pure accident. I don't know that he is here but I am trying to argue in favor of a different way to conceptualize US foreign policy. No single sundae makes a person fat, but to stop getting fatter, eventually you have decide to stop having them all the time. Defending the Kurds again this one time might feel righteous but that same line of thinking leads to the various examples of US overreach and resulting blowback that litter the pages of history.

Having NATO distrust the US is precisely the idea (to quote President Muffley). Europe is too complacent and probably would benefit in the long run from being unshielded from the outside world.

Regarding the Rorschach test, yes everything is one in the polarized environment we live in but I think it's easiest of all in foreign policy to make unfalsifiable claims. As difficult domestic policy is to craft within the context of a rules-based state, the anarchy of global foreign affairs is much more poorly constrained and poorly understood.


{{finally, I hope everyone realizes I don't necessarily believe any of this but it is a compelling argument I have been considering recently. I believe this viewpoint needs to be more broadly considered because maybe we are too complacent with the world order of the last 3/4 century and not ready for what may come next}}

I don't follow world politics that closely, I am not an expert but from what I understand Europe and European countries are allies to the US and vice versa; we have a shared history, democratic political systems and goals. Russia is NOT an ally to the US. It is a country that is ok injuring our diplomats (see Cuba), killing journalists (including US journalists), assasinating political enemies.
In turn, the Kurds are/were allies to the US, in that we had shared goals. To decide by talking to Turkey, to suddenly withdraw from that area, both abandoning Kurds, and giving Turkey and Russia and advantage in that area, is not only ethically wrong but strategically stupid for both Europe and ourselves. Having an oligargic/toltalitarian country like Russia stronger and taking over more trade from politically aligned European countries, can only hurt us. While I don't believe in the domino effect, I feel that Trump's favoring and being soft to toltalitarian governments is making the world a worse, less democratic place with increased human rights abuse, huge economic disparities. If you just want to look at money, closed borders means less consumers for anything the US might sell. A hotel in Turkey is not worth all that (I guess, unless you are Trump). 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 07:42:46 AM by partgypsy »

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1976 on: October 23, 2019, 07:54:36 AM »
Russia is mainly a Eurasian problem and not primarily an American one (also, the center of population in Russia is far from the US and the seat of power {Moscow} is even closer to Europe). Why should the US be on the front lines all the time? Maybe the shift in thought is hard to make now that the US has underwritten the global system for so long now. The US will always have geopolitical objectives everywhere in the world, just like every other country. It doesn't have to act on every single one and by being more reticent encourages regional powers to learn to carry out policing and self-defense tasks.


You've got me scratching my head on this one to understand your response.  From what I understand, you seem to be saying that becasue Russia is a Eurasian nation, it should be a Eurasian problem.  But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense - we have a vested interest in what Russia does, just as we do with China.  Economically Russia is a petroleum exporter - which is a globally traded commodity and we buy a crap ton of.  The EU is also our biggest trading partner.  In terms of national security Russia's military is second only to China's, not to mention they have the largest stockpile of nuclear warheads outside of the US.  NORAD was designed to deter a Russian offensive because (guess what!) in this day and age even conventional Russian warplanes are within range of major US cities.

The whole point of our international involvement since WWII is that it's allowed the US to set favorable terms for international trade.  Our prosperity is precisely because we have been involved; not in spite of it.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1977 on: October 23, 2019, 06:30:27 PM »
I was thinking that NATO was pretty much what allowed Germany not to go full-on communist bloc, but maybe I assumed too much?

Keeping the world's most dynamic developed export economy as a market system seems like a win.
I'm not doubting the historic importance of NATO in that regard--just its current relevance and the set of incentives it provides to its European members.

I’m sure a marketing director would say NATO suffers from poor branding.  NATO isn’t a “European Organization” that the US ‘happens’ to belong to, nor was WWII a ‘European War’ that the US came in out of benevolence to win.  The net benefits that we’ve gotten from NATO have been immense, and a fraction of what another war would cost in blood and treasure.  The contributions which other NATO states have made are largely (and often intentionally) underrepresented for the size of their economies.
Likewise, Russia isn’t ‘Europe’s problem’ simply based on a rather incomplete view of geography (Russia is largely an Asian nation, and geographically is closer to the US than France or Italy or the UK).
Russia is mainly a Eurasian problem and not primarily an American one (also, the center of population in Russia is far from the US and the seat of power {Moscow} is even closer to Europe). Why should the US be on the front lines all the time? Maybe the shift in thought is hard to make now that the US has underwritten the global system for so long now. The US will always have geopolitical objectives everywhere in the world, just like every other country. It doesn't have to act on every single one and by being more reticent encourages regional powers to learn to carry out policing and self-defense tasks.

*This statement is directed towards those who believe there is an "easy button" in geopolitics and wonder why US presidents don't ever just hit it and relax. I don't think you are such a person; however, as an aside, I would like to point out how easy it is to criticize any US president of any party on geopolitics because, quite often, there are no good options and one's assessment of a decision is nothing more than a partisan Rorschach test.

Your point on political Rorschach test is well taken, and is seen in many facets of political discourse. Objectively, I think there is little to defend in Trump's actions on Syria over the last weeks. Getting out of Syria is a fine position to have. The manner in which it was done, apparently without substantive consult with the military or our allies, is strategically stupid and a terrible example to set in terms of abandoning allies. Why should the rest of NATO trust the US after the last years of Trump's actions? The adverse response to Trump's actions has been bipartisan. There is no easy button in geopolitics. Sure would be nice if Trump knew that.
I would never defend Trump's tactics--and thinking that he has any sort of coherent strategy is even more deluded. However, sometimes he might grasp onto an interesting idea by pure accident. I don't know that he is here but I am trying to argue in favor of a different way to conceptualize US foreign policy. No single sundae makes a person fat, but to stop getting fatter, eventually you have decide to stop having them all the time. Defending the Kurds again this one time might feel righteous but that same line of thinking leads to the various examples of US overreach and resulting blowback that litter the pages of history.

Having NATO distrust the US is precisely the idea (to quote President Muffley). Europe is too complacent and probably would benefit in the long run from being unshielded from the outside world.

Regarding the Rorschach test, yes everything is one in the polarized environment we live in but I think it's easiest of all in foreign policy to make unfalsifiable claims. As difficult domestic policy is to craft within the context of a rules-based state, the anarchy of global foreign affairs is much more poorly constrained and poorly understood.


{{finally, I hope everyone realizes I don't necessarily believe any of this but it is a compelling argument I have been considering recently. I believe this viewpoint needs to be more broadly considered because maybe we are too complacent with the world order of the last 3/4 century and not ready for what may come next}}

I don't follow world politics that closely, I am not an expert but from what I understand Europe and European countries are allies to the US and vice versa; we have a shared history, democratic political systems and goals. Russia is NOT an ally to the US. It is a country that is ok injuring our diplomats (see Cuba), killing journalists (including US journalists), assasinating political enemies.
In turn, the Kurds are/were allies to the US, in that we had shared goals. To decide by talking to Turkey, to suddenly withdraw from that area, both abandoning Kurds, and giving Turkey and Russia and advantage in that area, is not only ethically wrong but strategically stupid for both Europe and ourselves. Having an oligargic/toltalitarian country like Russia stronger and taking over more trade from politically aligned European countries, can only hurt us. While I don't believe in the domino effect, I feel that Trump's favoring and being soft to toltalitarian governments is making the world a worse, less democratic place with increased human rights abuse, huge economic disparities. If you just want to look at money, closed borders means less consumers for anything the US might sell. A hotel in Turkey is not worth all that (I guess, unless you are Trump). 
I think it's possible to both disagree with the way that decision was carried out but consider from a long-term strategy perspective that it was the right thing to do. Russia wants to strangle Europe via its natural gas supply? Well maybe Europe will import more LNG from the US, or reverse direction (in Germany) on the desirability of nuclear power, or tap their own reserves via fracking...

And again, I will admit that the US absolutely has moral and strategic objectives in the ME. It's also simply the case that the US may not feel any existential imperative to act on those motivations because the US needs its allies far less than they need it militarily and economically (see below on the question of trade).

Russia is mainly a Eurasian problem and not primarily an American one (also, the center of population in Russia is far from the US and the seat of power {Moscow} is even closer to Europe). Why should the US be on the front lines all the time? Maybe the shift in thought is hard to make now that the US has underwritten the global system for so long now. The US will always have geopolitical objectives everywhere in the world, just like every other country. It doesn't have to act on every single one and by being more reticent encourages regional powers to learn to carry out policing and self-defense tasks.


You've got me scratching my head on this one to understand your response.  From what I understand, you seem to be saying that becasue Russia is a Eurasian nation, it should be a Eurasian problem.  But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense - we have a vested interest in what Russia does, just as we do with China.  Economically Russia is a petroleum exporter - which is a globally traded commodity and we buy a crap ton of.  The EU is also our biggest trading partner.  In terms of national security Russia's military is second only to China's, not to mention they have the largest stockpile of nuclear warheads outside of the US.  NORAD was designed to deter a Russian offensive because (guess what!) in this day and age even conventional Russian warplanes are within range of major US cities.

The whole point of our international involvement since WWII is that it's allowed the US to set favorable terms for international trade.  Our prosperity is precisely because we have been involved; not in spite of it.
I was refuting the idea that Russia was in any meaningful way proximal to the US. Notwithstanding Sarah Palin's excellent eyesight, the parts of Russia that are near the US are virtually unpopulated.

I'll revert back to Peter Zeihan on the question of trade (this is quoting data from a few years ago; "relative terms" is relative to total GDP):
"...[The United States'] total trade exposure in absolute terms may be the world's largest, but in relative terms, it is below that of everyone but Brazil and South Sudan. Even Afghanistan is more internationally integrated. Additionally, what exposure the Americans have is remarkably local: The United States' top two trading partners for decades have been Canada and Mexico, accounting for one-third...of the total US trade portfolio....Bilateral American-Canadian trade on the Ambassador Bridge, which links Detroit, Michigan, and Windsor, Ontario, is by itself of greater volume than all but four of America's other trading partners."

On the specific question of oil, US domestic production + some Canada exports is all that's needed to supply the US. The US is estimated to have the largest economically recoverable oil reserves in the world which will last another 40 years at current usage rates. The Green River formation likely contains another 3-4 trillion barrels, though the amount of that recoverable is currently unknown and not included in any reserve estimates; however, if just 10% of that is recoverable, that would account for another 40 years of supply.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1978 on: October 24, 2019, 08:22:00 AM »
So...what have we concluded?

Is remaining the sole guarantor of global security a valid objective of US military might?

And, if not, by how much should we cut the Pentagon's budget?

Is Russia a reliable partner or an adversary?

Is Turkey a reliable partner or an adversary?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1979 on: October 24, 2019, 08:42:29 AM »
So...what have we concluded?

Is remaining the sole guarantor of global security a valid objective of US military might?

And, if not, by how much should we cut the Pentagon's budget?

It does seem contradictory that some of the loudest voices promoting an end to military involvement in many global hot-spots are also the ones who are actively trying to increase military spending.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1980 on: October 24, 2019, 11:50:57 AM »
I'm basically ok with both of these options:

1. We have a huge military budget to enforce Pax Americana as we have since the 50s.

2. We let the world sort out most of it's own problems, configure our military purely for national defense, and cut it's budget by, say 75%.

The increasing military spending and withdrawing from the world option seems pretty stupid.

-W

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1981 on: October 24, 2019, 11:57:41 AM »
I'm basically ok with both of these options:

1. We have a huge military budget to enforce Pax Americana as we have since the 50s.

2. We let the world sort out most of it's own problems, configure our military purely for national defense, and cut it's budget by, say 75%.

The increasing military spending and withdrawing from the world option seems pretty stupid.

-W

Just curious - if we hypothetically went with option #2 - what would you do with the $500B-a-year savings from curtailing the instrio-military complex by 75%?  Cut taxes?  Boost domestic spending?  Curtail the national debt?  Buy Greenland?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1982 on: October 24, 2019, 06:24:55 PM »
Me personally, I'd plow a lot of money into basic research and primary education, both of which we are woefully underfunding. The rest I'd put toward deficit reduction.

There would be some significant economic damage from a 75% cut in military spending (including, yes, lots of basic research...) so you'd have to put some thought into how to reintegrate an awful lot of career military folks and civilian military-industrial-complex employees.

-W

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1983 on: October 24, 2019, 06:52:49 PM »
Me personally, I'd plow a lot of money into basic research and primary education, both of which we are woefully underfunding. The rest I'd put toward deficit reduction.

There would be some significant economic damage from a 75% cut in military spending (including, yes, lots of basic research...) so you'd have to put some thought into how to reintegrate an awful lot of career military folks and civilian military-industrial-complex employees.

-W
The military has never been great about reintegrating its soldiers into civilian life - why start now?
In all seriousness, while largely a thought exercise and about as likely to happen as Pete becoming president some quick math indicates that a 75% cut would put our military spending slightly below China’s and would be the 2nd biggest in the world, and we’d still be spending about 3x what Russia does annually.


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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1985 on: October 24, 2019, 07:20:08 PM »
Me personally, I'd plow a lot of money into basic research and primary education, both of which we are woefully underfunding.
The most recent version for 2018 reports that, in 2015, the United States spent approximately $12,800 per student on elementary and secondary education. That is over 35% more than the OECD country average of $9,500.

Maybe you didn’t read past the first paragraph you linked...?
Quote
The U.S. spending estimate includes money spent by public sources, such as federally guaranteed student loans and direct loans from the Department of Education, and private funds. Private funds include fees and expenses paid by parents and students and private student loans, which are not federally guaranteed.

Several countries outspent the United States for elementary and secondary education, including Austria, Norway, and Luxembourg, which spent $13.931, $14,353, and $20,900, respectively, in 2015.

So much of our “funding” comes from public and private student loans, and things paid for by parents and by the students themselves.  That’s explains the disconnect between Walt’s comment that we need more direct public investment for R&D and education and the US spending more that some other OECD countries.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1986 on: October 24, 2019, 07:57:09 PM »
Me personally, I'd plow a lot of money into basic research and primary education, both of which we are woefully underfunding.
The most recent version for 2018 reports that, in 2015, the United States spent approximately $12,800 per student on elementary and secondary education. That is over 35% more than the OECD country average of $9,500.

Maybe you didn’t read past the first paragraph you linked...?
Quote
The U.S. spending estimate includes money spent by public sources, such as federally guaranteed student loans and direct loans from the Department of Education, and private funds. Private funds include fees and expenses paid by parents and students and private student loans, which are not federally guaranteed.

Several countries outspent the United States for elementary and secondary education, including Austria, Norway, and Luxembourg, which spent $13.931, $14,353, and $20,900, respectively, in 2015.

So much of our “funding” comes from public and private student loans, and things paid for by parents and by the students themselves.  That’s explains the disconnect between Walt’s comment that we need more direct public investment for R&D and education and the US spending more that some other OECD countries.
So the US is 4th out of 34 OECD countries for primary + secondary education. As a % of GDP, the US is a median spender. Student loans are not much of a factor outside of tertiary education, right?

I totally agree on increased spending on basic research, however.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1987 on: October 24, 2019, 08:56:21 PM »
"The United States spent close to the average percentage of GDP on elementary/secondary education for OECD countries at 3.5%"

As someone who works (volunteers) closely with the local school district, I can tell you that we can certainly spend more money in ways that will improve outcomes.

Hell, in some cases just straight up paying parents if their kids attend and get good grades and get their immunizations would work pretty well. But we could also go ahead and double the teacher's salaries and see if we attract some more awesome teachers.

Better than spending money on even more aircraft carriers and such, if we're not going to use them to make the world a better place.

-W

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1988 on: October 25, 2019, 04:27:13 AM »
Me personally, I'd plow a lot of money into basic research and primary education, both of which we are woefully underfunding.
The most recent version for 2018 reports that, in 2015, the United States spent approximately $12,800 per student on elementary and secondary education. That is over 35% more than the OECD country average of $9,500.

Maybe you didn’t read past the first paragraph you linked...?
Quote
The U.S. spending estimate includes money spent by public sources, such as federally guaranteed student loans and direct loans from the Department of Education, and private funds. Private funds include fees and expenses paid by parents and students and private student loans, which are not federally guaranteed.

Several countries outspent the United States for elementary and secondary education, including Austria, Norway, and Luxembourg, which spent $13.931, $14,353, and $20,900, respectively, in 2015.

So much of our “funding” comes from public and private student loans, and things paid for by parents and by the students themselves.  That’s explains the disconnect between Walt’s comment that we need more direct public investment for R&D and education and the US spending more that some other OECD countries.
So the US is 4th out of 34 OECD countries for primary + secondary education. As a % of GDP, the US is a median spender. Student loans are not much of a factor outside of tertiary education, right?

I totally agree on increased spending on basic research, however.

1) I’m not sure why you think median spending on a category such as education is a ‘good’ level (hey, we’re average!) and
2) a not insubstantial number of K-12 students attend private school - something like 6 million every year, and
3) the spending in your article includes all sources, including donations and booster drives for local schools, which can be substantial. In my district (public) a bit over 10% of annual operating revenue comes from these sources, and occasionally entire large-ticket projects get funded through philanthropy.

Tl;dr - total spending per capital from all sources is a good metric for how much we contribute en mass to education, but it’s not a great indicator of how much public support we give to our education system.

I’ll echo Walt (again) - as an educator I can attest that there are many ways in which we could spend more money in education to improve outcomes.  There are also ways that we could improve outcomes with the money we have, though changes are often complicated by societal, political and regulatory challenges.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1989 on: October 25, 2019, 09:52:06 AM »
Some thoughts on the Gabbard as Russian darling.
1) I'm not going to weigh in on if she is a willing participant.
2) Russia has a lot of reasons to support her via troll farms: 3rd party spoiler, random support of a candidate just to reduce American trust in the democratic system and encourage voters to just stay home, she advocates for US policy that would be good for Russia.

Voter apathy/disgust is a real problem and something that Russia will actively encourage. Firehose-levels of disinformation is a classic Russian state tactic. Aggressive pushback on foreign interference should help with this, provided the GOP would get on board along with media outlets of all stripes.

As to the 3rd party spoiler issue, once again ranked choice voting would provide a MUCH better outcome if the metric is electing a candidate most closely aligned with what the electorate wants. While no system is perfect, it would have significantly reduced the need for voters to gamify their voting decisions and allow third parties to grow (which also probably says a bit about why it is a pipe dream).

Imagine how the electoral results would have looked if people could have put Johnson as their first choice and clinton as a second as a bulwark against Trump? Or Sanders first with Clinton as a second choice? Their votes would have shown support for their preferred candidate, but if that preferred candidate was not going to have a significant voting block (a la Johnson), then their final vote would have been allocated to Cinton, whom many 3rd party voters would have preferred to Trump. Even if only implemented at the primary level, it would have shunted Trump out quickly as a broadly disliked candidate relative to pretty much anyone else running.

I think ranked choice is a good structural bulwark against election influence.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1990 on: October 25, 2019, 11:02:39 AM »
But there are so many people (and one large political party) that believe large numbers of citizens shouldn't have the right to vote, or if allowed to vote, they shouldn't be represented equally. No way those people are interested in anything that puts more power in the hands of more people.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1991 on: October 25, 2019, 04:58:38 PM »
But there are so many people (and one large political party) that believe large numbers of citizens shouldn't have the right to vote, or if allowed to vote, they shouldn't be represented equally. No way those people are interested in anything that puts more power in the hands of more people.
Yep. This makes me sad.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1992 on: October 30, 2019, 09:07:00 AM »
But there are so many people (and one large political party) that believe large numbers of citizens illegal aliens and felons shouldn't have the right to vote, or if allowed to vote, they shouldn't be represented equally. No way those people are interested in anything that puts more power in the hands of more people.

Did I make it more accurate?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1993 on: October 30, 2019, 09:16:14 AM »
But there are so many people (and one large political party) that believe large numbers of citizens illegal aliens and felons shouldn't have the right to vote, or if allowed to vote, they shouldn't be represented equally. No way those people are interested in anything that puts more power in the hands of more people.

Did I make it more accurate?
How much evidence do you have evidence of illegal aliens voting?  By what mechanisms are illegal aliens managing to vote?  Have any elections been verified to have had a different result because of illegal aliens voting?  Or, just possibly, is this fear a Russian disinformation tactic that helps to divide American society and move a more gullible section of the population away from rational views of the world?

Also, what's the problem with felons voting?  Why shouldn't they vote?  Could there be benefits to their voting, in terms of reintegrating them into society?  Is a felon who votes more or less likely to go on to commit further felonies?   Is the problem that felons tend, disproportionally, to be male and black?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1994 on: October 30, 2019, 09:24:02 AM »
I've never understood why we don't allow felons who have served out their sentences to vote.  At that point they are otherwise free men and women who have (to use the popular phrasing) paid for their crimes.  Instead we disenfranchise them further.

Agreed that illegal alien voting has been a red herring used to get people all riled up.  By most honest accounts the number of ineligible people who manage to cast a vote illegally is miniscule, and is far, far smaller than the number of eligible voters who get incorrectly turned away.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1995 on: October 30, 2019, 09:53:14 AM »
The party also has a problem with Black people voting, as well as poor and elderly. 
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/07/north-carolina-voting-rights-law/493649/
Republicans in NC are also trying to suppress the college student vote, by changing the voter ID laws
https://thevotingnews.com/north-carolina-voter-id-law-targets-college-students/

And in NC if you are a black college student, they REALLY don't want your vote to count.
https://www.commoncause.org/north-carolina/press-release/nc/


When voter names are improperly purged from voter rolls there are often racial biases
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/19/georgia-governor-race-voter-suppression-brian-kemp

There is nothing in the constitution that says that felons or ex felons cannot vote, but many states have restrictions, with Florida used to being one of the most restrictive. By popular vote the state decided to give ex felons the vote back. But there are many restrictions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/03/us/florida-felon-voting-amendment-4.html




EvenSteven

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1996 on: October 30, 2019, 10:16:44 AM »
I've never understood why we don't allow felons who have served out their sentences to vote.  At that point they are otherwise free men and women who have (to use the popular phrasing) paid for their crimes.  Instead we disenfranchise them further.

Agreed that illegal alien voting has been a red herring used to get people all riled up.  By most honest accounts the number of ineligible people who manage to cast a vote illegally is miniscule, and is far, far smaller than the number of eligible voters who get incorrectly turned away.

"Better to turn away a thousand eligible voters, than to allow one ineligible voter to vote"

-Benjamin Franklin (as quoted from his instagram feed)

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1997 on: October 30, 2019, 10:28:23 AM »

"Better to turn away a thousand eligible voters, than to allow one ineligible voter to vote"

-Benjamin Franklin (as quoted from his instagram feed)

That's why I stopped following BF's feeds and why I 'unfriended' him on Facebook.  White privilege indeed... /s

talltexan

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1998 on: October 30, 2019, 12:46:45 PM »
I thought party gypsy gave a very nice summary of various GOP efforts to reduce the number of votes in elections.

What should be equally frustrating to progressives is how little resources are being directed to Stacey Abrams' efforts to increase turnout.

But when you talk to conservatives, they truly believe that these voter ID requirements are necessary. Even here in NC, in which we just got done re-doing an election because the Republican candidate hired a conman to basically fill out peoples' absentee ballots for them, many people seem to think it's these people without ID's that are the problem.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1999 on: October 30, 2019, 12:58:26 PM »
I thought party gypsy gave a very nice summary of various GOP efforts to reduce the number of votes in elections.

What should be equally frustrating to progressives is how little resources are being directed to Stacey Abrams' efforts to increase turnout.

But when you talk to conservatives, they truly believe that these voter ID requirements are necessary. Even here in NC, in which we just got done re-doing an election because the Republican candidate hired a conman to basically fill out peoples' absentee ballots for them, many people seem to think it's these people without ID's that are the problem.

I have two close relatives that are firm believers that hoards of illegal immigrants try to illegally vote every election, and that certain people (always left-leaning minorities) spend voting day hopping from one polling place tot he next casting dozens of votes.  Of course it's just a boogyman.
Ironically they won't support any of a range of voter reform ideas which would make this less likely, from universal registration and expanded voting days (you've got to want to vote!) to more money to protect our elections (that's my taxpayer dollars!).  Instead they want the burden placed on the individual by requiring things like drivers licenses or state ID cards.

They clearly state that people who don't have such documents must not care enough about voting to be allowed to vote. Meanwhile, I teach college students and roughly 1/4 of them don't have licenses or state IDs for the state we live in.