Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 185049 times)

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1500 on: May 17, 2018, 10:19:40 PM »
Of course they will make it all about Trump. That way people don't have to analyze what actually led to Trump being elected. That once Trump is out of office, everything will return to normal.

As a bare minimum, once Trump is out of office the government will be able to publicly acknowledge the threat posed by foreign interference and propose some countermeasures, instead of decrying the very idea as fake news.

It won't immediately fix the problem, but at least we can stop making it worse.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1501 on: May 18, 2018, 07:31:50 AM »
Big picture - if the Trump campaign didn't collude (they did) why are all these top advisers and officials lying to the FBI about it?  Why did Hope Hicks/Trump/SHS lie not once, not twice, but three times to the American people about the Trump Tower meeting if they're innocent?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1502 on: May 18, 2018, 09:08:33 AM »
In most situations like this in US politics, the lies and coverups are often worse than the original crimes or deeds. In the case of the Trumps, we have learned that it's the opposite. That is why so many people have lied so blatantly and repeatedly. Because being called out as a liar is better than being called out as a traitor.

Trump lies about his involvement in the Trump Tower meetings with Russians and his direct involvement in witness tampering with his dictation of Trump Jr's statement regarding said meeting, among many other actions, because if he doesn't lie about it, he's admitting publicly to being a direct participant in a conspiracy to use foreign agents and espionage against US citizens in order to benefit himself personally, politically, and benefit the Republican party more generally.

Quote
We will always have foreign interference in our elections. We always have had interference. (Has context been provided for how much other nations spent on ads? And also compare it to 2012?)

Can any of the other Trump apologists on this thread not see the problem with this statement? There are (or at least were) rules in place regarding advertisements regarding elections, and registration of lobbyists, legitimate and illegitimate sources of campaign funds, in attempt to prevent untoward domestic and foreign interference in our election processes. Surely you are not comparing attempts at influence through these established proper channels with what Trump has done? Or are you claiming that we have always had candidates, parties, and their agents who are also agents (both registered and unregistered) of foreign governments and play roles in espionage and counter-espionage actions against US citizens, US organizations, and US governments? You ask for context yet don't provide any.

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1503 on: May 18, 2018, 10:39:25 AM »
What the Russians did on social media is blatantly illegal in traditional media.  The Russians are not legally allowed to buy campaign ads on tv or radio or billboards.

But the laws haven't caught up with social media, which reaches more people more efficiently at a lower cost.  Trump exploited this lack of legal protection.  Like so much of his life story, he found a way to cheat that is just barely, technically, not illegal.  Yet.

Which is not to say that the Russians and the trump campaign didn't break the law, as evidenced by the string of indictments and people currently in prison for their actions during the campaign.

It's fairly clear to me that this administration will go down in history as one of the most corrupt we've ever had.  This is arguably a bigger violation of ethical norms than Watergate or Teapot Dome, but we survived those presidents and I think we'll survive this one too.
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gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1504 on: May 18, 2018, 11:28:19 AM »


Quote
We will always have foreign interference in our elections. We always have had interference. (Has context been provided for how much other nations spent on ads? And also compare it to 2012?)

Can any of the other Trump apologists on this thread not see the problem with this statement? There are (or at least were) rules in place regarding advertisements regarding elections, and registration of lobbyists, legitimate and illegitimate sources of campaign funds, in attempt to prevent untoward domestic and foreign interference in our election processes. Surely you are not comparing attempts at influence through these established proper channels with what Trump has done? Or are you claiming that we have always had candidates, parties, and their agents who are also agents (both registered and unregistered) of foreign governments and play roles in espionage and counter-espionage actions against US citizens, US organizations, and US governments? You ask for context yet don't provide any.

Essentially espionage was my point. Rules are simply walls. You can go over, around and under walls if you want to. Simply because our intelligence services cannot be everywhere at once we have to accept some foreign meddling.

So I would like to be able to compare Russian spending to Chinese or Saudi Arabia spending.

It would also be nice to know if they spent more or less compared to other elections.

 
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1505 on: May 19, 2018, 08:24:09 PM »


Quote
We will always have foreign interference in our elections. We always have had interference. (Has context been provided for how much other nations spent on ads? And also compare it to 2012?)

Can any of the other Trump apologists on this thread not see the problem with this statement? There are (or at least were) rules in place regarding advertisements regarding elections, and registration of lobbyists, legitimate and illegitimate sources of campaign funds, in attempt to prevent untoward domestic and foreign interference in our election processes. Surely you are not comparing attempts at influence through these established proper channels with what Trump has done? Or are you claiming that we have always had candidates, parties, and their agents who are also agents (both registered and unregistered) of foreign governments and play roles in espionage and counter-espionage actions against US citizens, US organizations, and US governments? You ask for context yet don't provide any.

Essentially espionage was my point. Rules are simply walls. You can go over, around and under walls if you want to. Simply because our intelligence services cannot be everywhere at once we have to accept some foreign meddling.

So I would like to be able to compare Russian spending to Chinese or Saudi Arabia spending.

It would also be nice to know if they spent more or less compared to other elections.
I don't understand this sentiment, nor do I agree with it.  What about murder or tax fraud?  Just because we can't detect and punish all offenses doesn't mean we just accept that they happen and are fine with it.
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gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1506 on: May 20, 2018, 05:51:40 AM »


Quote
We will always have foreign interference in our elections. We always have had interference. (Has context been provided for how much other nations spent on ads? And also compare it to 2012?)

Can any of the other Trump apologists on this thread not see the problem with this statement? There are (or at least were) rules in place regarding advertisements regarding elections, and registration of lobbyists, legitimate and illegitimate sources of campaign funds, in attempt to prevent untoward domestic and foreign interference in our election processes. Surely you are not comparing attempts at influence through these established proper channels with what Trump has done? Or are you claiming that we have always had candidates, parties, and their agents who are also agents (both registered and unregistered) of foreign governments and play roles in espionage and counter-espionage actions against US citizens, US organizations, and US governments? You ask for context yet don't provide any.

Essentially espionage was my point. Rules are simply walls. You can go over, around and under walls if you want to. Simply because our intelligence services cannot be everywhere at once we have to accept some foreign meddling.

So I would like to be able to compare Russian spending to Chinese or Saudi Arabia spending.

It would also be nice to know if they spent more or less compared to other elections.
I don't understand this sentiment, nor do I agree with it.  What about murder or tax fraud?  Just because we can't detect and punish all offenses doesn't mean we just accept that they happen and are fine with it.

I believe I am being practical. If 100 spies attempt to sneak in and we catch 85, woo! We caught the bad guys! But those 15 will still do damage.

Our government may be the most powerful on Earth, but it is still run by humans and restrained by resources. Humans make mistakes. Time may not allow for the investigation of every tip. And imagination can be lacking at the higher levels of our intelligence services.

It isn't about the "morality" issue. It's accepting that there are limitations on what we can do.
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Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1507 on: May 20, 2018, 11:21:00 AM »


Quote
We will always have foreign interference in our elections. We always have had interference. (Has context been provided for how much other nations spent on ads? And also compare it to 2012?)

Can any of the other Trump apologists on this thread not see the problem with this statement? There are (or at least were) rules in place regarding advertisements regarding elections, and registration of lobbyists, legitimate and illegitimate sources of campaign funds, in attempt to prevent untoward domestic and foreign interference in our election processes. Surely you are not comparing attempts at influence through these established proper channels with what Trump has done? Or are you claiming that we have always had candidates, parties, and their agents who are also agents (both registered and unregistered) of foreign governments and play roles in espionage and counter-espionage actions against US citizens, US organizations, and US governments? You ask for context yet don't provide any.

Essentially espionage was my point. Rules are simply walls. You can go over, around and under walls if you want to. Simply because our intelligence services cannot be everywhere at once we have to accept some foreign meddling.

So I would like to be able to compare Russian spending to Chinese or Saudi Arabia spending.

It would also be nice to know if they spent more or less compared to other elections.
I don't understand this sentiment, nor do I agree with it.  What about murder or tax fraud?  Just because we can't detect and punish all offenses doesn't mean we just accept that they happen and are fine with it.

I believe I am being practical. If 100 spies attempt to sneak in and we catch 85, woo! We caught the bad guys! But those 15 will still do damage.

Our government may be the most powerful on Earth, but it is still run by humans and restrained by resources. Humans make mistakes. Time may not allow for the investigation of every tip. And imagination can be lacking at the higher levels of our intelligence services.

It isn't about the "morality" issue. It's accepting that there are limitations on what we can do.

I see your practicality, and it is reasonable to an extent. It is a different thing when the people running for office are either  complicit or so guileless that they do not understand when they are being played.

From the descriptions of the now infamous Trump Tower meeting, I can't help but think that they thought Trump Jr and Kushner were total fucking idiots. I think it was the worst combination of being both complicit and guileless for how these things work.
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gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1508 on: May 20, 2018, 01:30:43 PM »


Quote
We will always have foreign interference in our elections. We always have had interference. (Has context been provided for how much other nations spent on ads? And also compare it to 2012?)

Can any of the other Trump apologists on this thread not see the problem with this statement? There are (or at least were) rules in place regarding advertisements regarding elections, and registration of lobbyists, legitimate and illegitimate sources of campaign funds, in attempt to prevent untoward domestic and foreign interference in our election processes. Surely you are not comparing attempts at influence through these established proper channels with what Trump has done? Or are you claiming that we have always had candidates, parties, and their agents who are also agents (both registered and unregistered) of foreign governments and play roles in espionage and counter-espionage actions against US citizens, US organizations, and US governments? You ask for context yet don't provide any.

Essentially espionage was my point. Rules are simply walls. You can go over, around and under walls if you want to. Simply because our intelligence services cannot be everywhere at once we have to accept some foreign meddling.

So I would like to be able to compare Russian spending to Chinese or Saudi Arabia spending.

It would also be nice to know if they spent more or less compared to other elections.
I don't understand this sentiment, nor do I agree with it.  What about murder or tax fraud?  Just because we can't detect and punish all offenses doesn't mean we just accept that they happen and are fine with it.

I believe I am being practical. If 100 spies attempt to sneak in and we catch 85, woo! We caught the bad guys! But those 15 will still do damage.

Our government may be the most powerful on Earth, but it is still run by humans and restrained by resources. Humans make mistakes. Time may not allow for the investigation of every tip. And imagination can be lacking at the higher levels of our intelligence services.

It isn't about the "morality" issue. It's accepting that there are limitations on what we can do.

I see your practicality, and it is reasonable to an extent. It is a different thing when the people running for office are either  complicit or so guileless that they do not understand when they are being played.

From the descriptions of the now infamous Trump Tower meeting, I can't help but think that they thought Trump Jr and Kushner were total fucking idiots. I think it was the worst combination of being both complicit and guileless for how these things work.

Yes. They handled it badly. Well, they handled it like business men who wanted credit of it worked out.

A true politician would have used a "cats paw" to gather then launder the intelligence into something usable.
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BlueMR2

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1509 on: May 20, 2018, 01:57:28 PM »
I don't understand this sentiment, nor do I agree with it.  What about murder or tax fraud?  Just because we can't detect and punish all offenses doesn't mean we just accept that they happen and are fine with it.

I read that more in the context of being pragmatic.  A tremendous amount of energy can be wasted trying to track down all the offenses.  In the meantime they are getting ahead.  Don't ever forget that it's a competition for dominance.  We're nice and cozy and soft over here in our richie rich first world conditions.  It's so easy to fall into the "we're all friends" except for maybe a couple countries that are misbehaving.  The truth is that none of them are truly our friends.  Allies sometimes yes.  As long as we have the same cause.  Compatible causes come to a conclusion and the battle for dominance rises back up.  I respect Russia, they are a formidable competitor.  We can't focus all our efforts on them though.  Even though (for just one example) we're currently cozy with much of the EU, they don't have our best interests in mind either and must be at least somewhat examined as a subversive force as well.  PLUS, then we still need the resources to do what's right for our way of life.  Definitely not enough resources to go around, so the balancing act is critical.

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1510 on: May 21, 2018, 06:57:28 AM »
Constitutional crisis = engaged.
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gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1511 on: May 21, 2018, 06:04:31 PM »
Get out the pitchforks and torches gents! The israeli's offered assistance to Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/19/donald-trump-jr-meeting-saudi-arabia-united-arab-emirates-report
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Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1512 on: May 21, 2018, 06:36:39 PM »
The story remains the same:
Quote
Under US law, the involvement of foreign governments or individuals in American elections is illegal.

It is not known if anything came of the alleged offer for assistance. The Times stated that Trump Jr responded ďapprovinglyĒ.

I think that there is also a subtext of cynicism in which the assumed baseline of a  lot of people is that all politicians are corrupt/opportunistic shills and that none of this should surprise us. This is how Trump gets normalized. The level of absolutely blatant corruption throughout the administration is galling.

... or maybe I'm just not cynical enough yet.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 06:39:21 PM by Glenstache »
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gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1513 on: May 21, 2018, 08:26:19 PM »
Merry Christmas Glenstache. https://amp.businessinsider.com/bill-hillary-clinton-normalized-trump-2018-5

Nah. I'm just being smug because that Israel story shows we do not have all the available information. Somehow it got ignored in the Russia frenzy. Also now we have questions on if Democrats will be demanding Sanctions on Israel.

Do recall that there was a lot of saber rattling for Russia.

Or maybe we'll just get an endless cycle of investigations.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1514 on: May 22, 2018, 07:59:57 AM »
Merry Christmas Glenstache. https://amp.businessinsider.com/bill-hillary-clinton-normalized-trump-2018-5

Nah. I'm just being smug because that Israel story shows we do not have all the available information. Somehow it got ignored in the Russia frenzy. Also now we have questions on if Democrats will be demanding Sanctions on Israel.

Do recall that there was a lot of saber rattling for Russia.

Or maybe we'll just get an endless cycle of investigations.

The Clintons normalized it?  Reality:

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gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1515 on: May 22, 2018, 08:43:20 AM »
Merry Christmas Glenstache. https://amp.businessinsider.com/bill-hillary-clinton-normalized-trump-2018-5

Nah. I'm just being smug because that Israel story shows we do not have all the available information. Somehow it got ignored in the Russia frenzy. Also now we have questions on if Democrats will be demanding Sanctions on Israel.

Do recall that there was a lot of saber rattling for Russia.

Or maybe we'll just get an endless cycle of investigations.

The Clintons normalized it?  Reality:



Some criminals are more skilled than others.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1516 on: May 22, 2018, 09:58:59 AM »
It seems to me that independent and continual examination of our leaders is essential. In general more transparency and critical vetting could avoid many of the criminal problems we have encountered over the last several decades.

If one's opinion is that 'all upper-echelon politicians are criminals' then we ought to examine why i) criminals are drawn to politics and ii) how they obtain and retain higher office despite their criminality. Certainly power and personal enrichment drive the former, and both could be directly addressed by enforcing existing legislation and adding new requirements. The latter requires criminal acts to be detected, investigated and prosecuted regardless of the power of the individual or the position he or she holds.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1517 on: May 22, 2018, 10:19:04 AM »
Get out the pitchforks and torches gents! The israeli's offered assistance to Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/19/donald-trump-jr-meeting-saudi-arabia-united-arab-emirates-report

Merry Christmas Glenstache. https://amp.businessinsider.com/bill-hillary-clinton-normalized-trump-2018-5

Nah. I'm just being smug because that Israel story shows we do not have all the available information. Somehow it got ignored in the Russia frenzy. Also now we have questions on if Democrats will be demanding Sanctions on Israel.

Do recall that there was a lot of saber rattling for Russia.

Or maybe we'll just get an endless cycle of investigations.

I'm confused as to what your conclusions are from the Guardian article. Information that suggests further collusion of a candidate with a foreign government in exchange for favorable treatment towards that country once elected tells us...? Are you saying this is good news for Trump? For Russia? Bad news for the investigation?

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1518 on: May 22, 2018, 11:20:44 AM »
Get out the pitchforks and torches gents! The israeli's offered assistance to Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/19/donald-trump-jr-meeting-saudi-arabia-united-arab-emirates-report

Merry Christmas Glenstache. https://amp.businessinsider.com/bill-hillary-clinton-normalized-trump-2018-5

Nah. I'm just being smug because that Israel story shows we do not have all the available information. Somehow it got ignored in the Russia frenzy. Also now we have questions on if Democrats will be demanding Sanctions on Israel.

Do recall that there was a lot of saber rattling for Russia.

Or maybe we'll just get an endless cycle of investigations.

I'm confused as to what your conclusions are from the Guardian article. Information that suggests further collusion of a candidate with a foreign government in exchange for favorable treatment towards that country once elected tells us...? Are you saying this is good news for Trump? For Russia? Bad news for the investigation?

Two movies, one screen.

If you believe that Russia-gate is real because foreign interference in our election is intolerable, you can expect the Democrats to start demanding Sanctions, expelling diplomats and starting investigations.

If you believe Russia-gate is false, you will expect Democrats to make a token effort at investigation, but not demand sanctions or expel diplomats.

Democrats would appear to be "in the horns of a dilemma." They can be tough on interference and risk alienating an ally of 50 years (as well dredge up any other unsavory business). Or they can back down which undermines the Russia investigation.

Mueller is already investigating this meeting. But we also had a Senate investigation and a house investigation. To me it seems Democrats would have to do a full scale investigation again or risk looking "soft."

Of course we have to wait and see what happens.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1519 on: May 22, 2018, 11:58:06 AM »
@gentmach - what do you mean when you say "if you believe the Russia-gate is real"?
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DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1520 on: May 22, 2018, 12:05:07 PM »
Ah, the tin foil hatters are back out, I see.

Let's remember it's the Trump administration that has refused to enact sanctions on Russia.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1521 on: May 22, 2018, 12:56:01 PM »
It wouldn't be Israel that would be the target of investigation, at least based on this current Trump scandal, it would be Saudi Arabia and the UAE, these are the foreign governments that may have paid bribes and undeniably utilized their agents within and surrounding the Trump campaign in order to push for direct policy change (ending the Iran agreement, blockading former US-ally Qatar, Russian-linked nuclear technology to SA, all of the suspicious activity around the sale of Rosneft). The only Israeli link that I've seen is that SA and UAE really wanted Trump to use an Israeli social media marketing company called Zamel. I'm pretty sure Democrat are the only ones not afraid of where these investigations take us, I've yet to see any outcry with regards to Tony Podesta (brother of Clinton's campaign manager John Podesta) being caught up in the mess that is the Trump campaign/org/administration/family (hard to really separate these entities to be honest). All of this is not to say that Israel and Netanyahu didn't utilize similar tactics to support Trump during the campaign and then influence him and his administration in illegal ways; I'm just not aware that anyone has reported on it.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1522 on: May 22, 2018, 01:04:18 PM »
The assistance from Russia has been clearly linked to Russian State actors.  The reports of the offer of assistance from the Middle East implicate State actors from the UAE and Saudia, but the link to the Israeli State is not made, just to an Israeli company.  Also, the Russian offers of assistance have been shown to have turned into action, whereas that is not so clear in relation to the UAE and Saudia.

If it is shown that the Israeli State was offering assistance, rather than just an Israeli company, and that it put that assistance into place to try to influence the US Presidential election, it would be proper for the USA to take suitable retaliatory action.  Starting with the removal of military and economic assistance and moving on to sanctions as necessary.  Evidence for those two facts has not yet been put forward.
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1523 on: May 22, 2018, 01:43:21 PM »
If you believe that Russia-gate is real because foreign interference in our election is intolerable, you can expect the Democrats to start demanding Sanctions, expelling diplomats and starting investigations.

I think this is hilarious.  Some people are so convinced that there was no foreign interference in the election ("witch hunt!") that they use the example of additional foreign interference to exonerate Trump of any wrongdoing.

"No officer, I couldn't possibly have been doing 75 in a 60.  It had to be at least a 90!"
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1524 on: May 22, 2018, 02:41:25 PM »
If you believe that Russia-gate is real because foreign interference in our election is intolerable, you can expect the Democrats to start demanding Sanctions, expelling diplomats and starting investigations.

I think this is hilarious.  Some people are so convinced that there was no foreign interference in the election ("witch hunt!") that they use the example of additional foreign interference to exonerate Trump of any wrongdoing.

"No officer, I couldn't possibly have been doing 75 in a 60.  It had to be at least a 90!"

Actually I believe there was foreign interference, just no more than average. I don't believe that it was this "all out, blitzkrieg style, Putin behind every corner" attack.

This second meeting seems to flip the narrative around and raises more concerns that need to be investigated in uncomfortable places.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1525 on: May 22, 2018, 03:04:52 PM »
If you believe that Russia-gate is real because foreign interference in our election is intolerable, you can expect the Democrats to start demanding Sanctions, expelling diplomats and starting investigations.

I think this is hilarious.  Some people are so convinced that there was no foreign interference in the election ("witch hunt!") that they use the example of additional foreign interference to exonerate Trump of any wrongdoing.

"No officer, I couldn't possibly have been doing 75 in a 60.  It had to be at least a 90!"

Actually I believe there was foreign interference, just no more than average.
I don't believe that it was this "all out, blitzkrieg style, Putin behind every corner" attack.

This second meeting seems to flip the narrative around and raises more concerns that need to be investigated in uncomfortable places.

Well this raises the question - do you refute the conclusions of our own intelligence agencies and the Senate Intelligence committee, or do you think that they've correctly assessed the level of Russian interference but missed previous, state-sponsored coordinated attacks?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1526 on: May 22, 2018, 05:22:00 PM »
Evgeny Freidman, a Russian immigrant and Michael Cohen's longtime business partner, has flipped and is cooperating with Mueller.  In exchange, he will plead guilty to a single count of evading $50,000 worth in taxes and 5 years probation with no jail time.  Freidman was looking at four separate charges of tax fraud totaling over $5MM, plus one charge of grand larceny. Each of those charges carries a maximum sentence of 25 years.

Such a remarkable reduction in the charges against him suggests that he's given some pretty valuable information to Mueller in return.

Cohen looks more and more screwed - unless he's got something even better to offer Mueller.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/nyregion/michael-cohen-trump-taxi-cooperation.html
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1527 on: May 22, 2018, 05:47:20 PM »
If you believe that Russia-gate is real because foreign interference in our election is intolerable, you can expect the Democrats to start demanding Sanctions, expelling diplomats and starting investigations.

I think this is hilarious.  Some people are so convinced that there was no foreign interference in the election ("witch hunt!") that they use the example of additional foreign interference to exonerate Trump of any wrongdoing.

"No officer, I couldn't possibly have been doing 75 in a 60.  It had to be at least a 90!"

Actually I believe there was foreign interference, just no more than average.
I don't believe that it was this "all out, blitzkrieg style, Putin behind every corner" attack.

This second meeting seems to flip the narrative around and raises more concerns that need to be investigated in uncomfortable places.

Well this raises the question - do you refute the conclusions of our own intelligence agencies and the Senate Intelligence committee, or do you think that they've correctly assessed the level of Russian interference but missed previous, state-sponsored coordinated attacks?

Between known and unknown interference attempts in every election, the result is statistically negligible. At least not enough to warrant making America a police state.

The answer is "I don't know." I am looking for context.

Hypothetically, if China spent 500,000 on Facebook ads to get Clinton elected, would that mean they had 5 times the influence? Does anyone know that outside Facebook management? Was the question even asked?

Also historical context. Who did the Russians pull for in the 2012 election? How much did the spend? Was 2016 above average or below average?

The problem is that most inquiries run into a page of redacted text.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1528 on: May 22, 2018, 06:01:14 PM »
Hypothetically, if China spent 500,000 on Facebook ads to get Clinton elected, would that mean they had 5 times the influence? Does anyone know that outside Facebook management? Was the question even asked?

You're making this up as you go along, aren't you?

Foreign government spending on American elections is illegal.  It has been illegal since the advent of marketing.  When it happens, it's by covert counterintelligence officers working under the radar, and whether they cost a thousand or a million doesn't make much difference.  They're spies.

Facebook and twitter are, for some reason, exempt from the laws that make it illegal for foreign governments to sway elections.  That needs to change first, but we can't even do that as long as potus continues to deny that it even happened. 

The amount of spending on facebook and twitter ads in most previous elections was exactly zero, because they didn't exist.  To my ears, it just sounds like you're trying to confound the issue at hand.  Which is that Russia orchestrated a deliberate intervention in the US election.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1529 on: May 22, 2018, 06:12:50 PM »

Between known and unknown interference attempts in every election, the result is statistically negligible. At least not enough to warrant making America a police state.

The answer is "I don't know." I am looking for context.

Hypothetically, if China spent 500,000 on Facebook ads to get Clinton elected, would that mean they had 5 times the influence? Does anyone know that outside Facebook management? Was the question even asked?

Also historical context. Who did the Russians pull for in the 2012 election? How much did the spend? Was 2016 above average or below average?

The problem is that most inquiries run into a page of redacted text.

Police state?  Was the question even asked?  Seriously??  I'm quite certain that our numerous intelligence agencies spend an great deal of time and resources trying to detect and deter just these sorts of things, and not just in this last election.  The fact that the FBI, CIA and NSA and Senate intelligence committee have all said as much - Russia attempte to interfere in our 2016 election to a previously unprecedented level.

your argument here seems to be based on two assumptions; that this level of interference is common (only we've never learned of it before) and because it is common we ought not to care.
Even if both of those are true (and I strongly refute both conditions) - I'm not willing to accept that we shouldn't try to stop it from happening again.  Imagine if the police took that approach to a serial bank-robber.  "well, we don't really know if other banks have been robbed that we just haven't heard about, and it would be expensive and time consuming to catch him, so let's just go home"
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1530 on: May 22, 2018, 06:54:12 PM »

Between known and unknown interference attempts in every election, the result is statistically negligible. At least not enough to warrant making America a police state.

The answer is "I don't know." I am looking for context.

Hypothetically, if China spent 500,000 on Facebook ads to get Clinton elected, would that mean they had 5 times the influence? Does anyone know that outside Facebook management? Was the question even asked?

Also historical context. Who did the Russians pull for in the 2012 election? How much did the spend? Was 2016 above average or below average?

The problem is that most inquiries run into a page of redacted text.

Police state?  Was the question even asked?  Seriously??  I'm quite certain that our numerous intelligence agencies spend an great deal of time and resources trying to detect and deter just these sorts of things, and not just in this last election.  The fact that the FBI, CIA and NSA and Senate intelligence committee have all said as much - Russia attempte to interfere in our 2016 election to a previously unprecedented level.

your argument here seems to be based on two assumptions; that this level of interference is common (only we've never learned of it before) and because it is common we ought not to care.
Even if both of those are true (and I strongly refute both conditions) - I'm not willing to accept that we shouldn't try to stop it from happening again.  Imagine if the police took that approach to a serial bank-robber.  "well, we don't really know if other banks have been robbed that we just haven't heard about, and it would be expensive and time consuming to catch him, so let's just go home"


Quote
We will always have foreign interference in our elections. We always have had interference. (Has context been provided for how much other nations spent on ads? And also compare it to 2012?)

Can any of the other Trump apologists on this thread not see the problem with this statement? There are (or at least were) rules in place regarding advertisements regarding elections, and registration of lobbyists, legitimate and illegitimate sources of campaign funds, in attempt to prevent untoward domestic and foreign interference in our election processes. Surely you are not comparing attempts at influence through these established proper channels with what Trump has done? Or are you claiming that we have always had candidates, parties, and their agents who are also agents (both registered and unregistered) of foreign governments and play roles in espionage and counter-espionage actions against US citizens, US organizations, and US governments? You ask for context yet don't provide any.

Essentially espionage was my point. Rules are simply walls. You can go over, around and under walls if you want to. Simply because our intelligence services cannot be everywhere at once we have to accept some foreign meddling.

So I would like to be able to compare Russian spending to Chinese or Saudi Arabia spending.

It would also be nice to know if they spent more or less compared to other elections.
I don't understand this sentiment, nor do I agree with it.  What about murder or tax fraud?  Just because we can't detect and punish all offenses doesn't mean we just accept that they happen and are fine with it.

Nereo, this is the second time you have launched into a logical fallacy in 5 days. I'm starting to worry about your mental state.

I am simply being pragmatic. Nothing is 100 percent. My point was that surveillance would hit a point where the principle of diminishing returns comes into effect.

Hey, you know James Clapper committed perjury? Several times? https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/01/19/james-clappers-perjury-dc-made-men-dont-get-charged-lying-congress-jonathan-turley-column/1045991001/

Makes me a bit skeptical. Different strokes for different folks though.

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« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 09:15:23 AM by arebelspy »
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gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1531 on: May 22, 2018, 07:08:39 PM »
Hypothetically, if China spent 500,000 on Facebook ads to get Clinton elected, would that mean they had 5 times the influence? Does anyone know that outside Facebook management? Was the question even asked?

You're making this up as you go along, aren't you?

Foreign government spending on American elections is illegal.  It has been illegal since the advent of marketing.  When it happens, it's by covert counterintelligence officers working under the radar, and whether they cost a thousand or a million doesn't make much difference.  They're spies.

Facebook and twitter are, for some reason, exempt from the laws that make it illegal for foreign governments to sway elections.  That needs to change first, but we can't even do that as long as potus continues to deny that it even happened. 

The amount of spending on facebook and twitter ads in most previous elections was exactly zero, because they didn't exist.  To my ears, it just sounds like you're trying to confound the issue at hand.  Which is that Russia orchestrated a deliberate intervention in the US election.

September 26, 2006, Facebook was opened to everyone at least 13 years old with a valid email address.

2008, 2010, 2012, 2014 and 2016 elections.

Facebook and Twitter are simply the latest tools. They do get more bang for the buck with them.

We live in a global economy. We have corporations within corporations within corporations. And as I explained earlier, our intelligence services cannot check every damn deal that is made.

We have only one point of data and the rest is on the faith of our intelligence services. Assuming that our side is infallible and omnipotent sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1532 on: May 22, 2018, 07:20:11 PM »
No no you guys have it all wrong!

There was no Russia meddling. Well ok there was but there wasn't much to it. Well ok it was a big deal but they wanted Hillary to win. Well ok they didn't really want Hillary to win they wanted Trump to win BUT, it's no big deal it happens all the time. It's "negligible!"

Come on, what don't you guys get?

It takes some crazy ass mental gymnastics to try and defend the indefensible.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1533 on: May 22, 2018, 08:02:27 PM »
Then there's the change in US Policy that follows Donald Trump or Jared Kushner getting personal business benefits from foreign governments, China and Quatar come to mind.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1534 on: May 22, 2018, 08:16:00 PM »
I had been staying out if this discussion since, well, there are so many wing nuts on the Internet who believe Trump can do no wrong. Nice to see reasonable discussions here. Wait, what a surprise, this is a group of people setting out to retire early and doing it. Oh, I guess itís self selecting for the smarter folks.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1535 on: May 22, 2018, 09:29:24 PM »
No no you guys have it all wrong!

There was no Russia meddling. Well ok there was but there wasn't much to it. Well ok it was a big deal but they wanted Hillary to win. Well ok they didn't really want Hillary to win they wanted Trump to win BUT, it's no big deal it happens all the time. It's "negligible!"

Come on, what don't you guys get?

It takes some crazy ass mental gymnastics to try and defend the indefensible.

Every nation on Earth has something at stake in our elections. Our borders are unsecured and with the Advent of the internet, we have more open avenues for attack than ever. Some avenues of attack that are purposefully left open by our own intelligence services. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7)

If a nation has the capabilities, why not try? Using Tor and other programs makes it nearly impossible to trace. Larger nations have resources or capital that we cannot live without so have leverage on us even if they are caught.

Acknowledging that we are vulnerable on several fronts is hardly mental gymnastics.
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1536 on: May 22, 2018, 11:20:57 PM »
Acknowledging that we are vulnerable on several fronts is hardly mental gymnastics.

You're not acknowledging vulnerabilities, you're excusing deliberately malicious exploitation of vulnerabilities.  By elected officials entrusted with protecting the institutions they are instead subverting for personal profit.

Surely you can see the difference.

I acknowledge that banks are not secure, but I still want to prosecute bank robbers.  I acknowledge that children are too trusting of authority figures, but I still want to prosecute pedophiles.  I acknowledge that foreign governments can still bribe and blackmail elected officials in exchange for influence, but I still want to prosecute Trump.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 11:31:02 AM by sol »
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former player

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1537 on: May 23, 2018, 01:43:53 AM »
Our borders are unsecured

No, they are not.  If they were truly unsecured the USA would have tens of millions of people coming into the States without formal permission, and it just doesn't.

In saying that they are unsecured you are denigrating the work of every person who works to keep the USA borders secure, and demonstrating that you are being willfully ignorant of the facts and being led down a policy blind alley by demagoguery.

The USA population is 325 million.  Between 11 and 12 million of those people are undocumented: that is less than 3%.  Perhaps about half of those may have come across the borders without documentation, the rest have entered legally and overstayed.  Undocumented people in the USA overall have higher levels of education, commit less crime and take fewer benefits than the rest of the population, despite the obstacles put in their way by being undocumented.  So while there are some issues regarding undocumented immigration across the borders, it is not at the level of "unsecured".  (Compare and contrast with Europe two years ago, when some borders were opened.)

Please don't devalue the good points you are making by including bad ones,
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1538 on: May 23, 2018, 04:14:24 AM »
No no you guys have it all wrong!

There was no Russia meddling. Well ok there was but there wasn't much to it. Well ok it was a big deal but they wanted Hillary to win. Well ok they didn't really want Hillary to win they wanted Trump to win BUT, it's no big deal it happens all the time. It's "negligible!"

Come on, what don't you guys get?

It takes some crazy ass mental gymnastics to try and defend the indefensible.

Every nation on Earth has something at stake in our elections. Our borders are unsecured and with the Advent of the internet, we have more open avenues for attack than ever. Some avenues of attack that are purposefully left open by our own intelligence services. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7)

If a nation has the capabilities, why not try? Using Tor and other programs makes it nearly impossible to trace. Larger nations have resources or capital that we cannot live without so have leverage on us even if they are caught.

Acknowledging that we are vulnerable on several fronts is hardly mental gymnastics.

Yeah, because that' exactly what I meant by mental gymnastics *eye roll*

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1539 on: May 23, 2018, 05:28:59 AM »
Our borders are unsecured

No, they are not.  If they were truly unsecured the USA would have tens of millions of people coming into the States without formal permission, and it just doesn't.

In saying that they are unsecured you are denigrating the work of every person who works to keep the USA borders secure, and demonstrating that you are being willfully ignorant of the facts and being led down a policy blind alley by demagoguery.

The USA population is 325 million.  Between 11 and 12 million of those people are undocumented: that is less than 3%.  Perhaps about half of those may have come across the borders without documentation, the rest have entered legally and overstayed.  Undocumented people in the USA overall have higher levels of education, commit less crime and take fewer benefits than the rest of the population, despite the obstacles put in their way by being undocumented.  So while there are some issues regarding undocumented immigration across the borders, it is not at the level of "unsecured".  (Compare and contrast with Europe two years ago, when some borders were opened.)

Please don't devalue the good points you are making by including bad ones,

My apologies. I was not thinking of undocumented immigrants. I should have said "Our borders appear to be vulnerable to sophisticated organizations (I.E. Drug cartels) who would probably not ask questions if paid enough money."

No no you guys have it all wrong!

There was no Russia meddling. Well ok there was but there wasn't much to it. Well ok it was a big deal but they wanted Hillary to win. Well ok they didn't really want Hillary to win they wanted Trump to win BUT, it's no big deal it happens all the time. It's "negligible!"

Come on, what don't you guys get?

It takes some crazy ass mental gymnastics to try and defend the indefensible.

Every nation on Earth has something at stake in our elections. Our borders are unsecured and with the Advent of the internet, we have more open avenues for attack than ever. Some avenues of attack that are purposefully left open by our own intelligence services. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7)

If a nation has the capabilities, why not try? Using Tor and other programs makes it nearly impossible to trace. Larger nations have resources or capital that we cannot live without so have leverage on us even if they are caught.

Acknowledging that we are vulnerable on several fronts is hardly mental gymnastics.

Yeah, because that' exactly what I meant by mental gymnastics *eye roll*

It doesn't take much to be a hacker. Programming knowledge, computer with internet, time, patience and imagination.

Our institutions are under attack everyday from hostile actors. Most of these attempts fail. A few succeed, (someone didn't install a patch, malware piggy backed in on legitimate software).

Generally the public won't be alerted to or think about such things. If you suddenly zoom in on it, have radio stations, news channels and newspapers reminding the public every day that we were attacked, then people start freaking out. Peer pressure will make anyone who has questions look like a traitor.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1540 on: May 23, 2018, 08:18:22 AM »
https://themoscowproject.org/explainers/trumps-russia-cover-up-by-the-numbers-70-contacts-with-russia-linked-operatives/

TRUMPíS RUSSIA COVER-UP BY THE NUMBERS Ė 75+ CONTACTS WITH RUSSIA-LINKED OPERATIVES

Quote
This brings the number of high-level campaign officials and Trump advisors were aware of contacts between the Trump team and Russia to 23. None of these 23 individuals ever revealed to federal law enforcement that the Russians were seeking to interfere with the election by aiding the campaign.

This is aiding and abetting.  Remember when Al Gore's campaign got sent an advanced copy of W's outline/plan for the debate and they IMMEDIATELY turned it over to the FBI without looking at the content?

Quote
Yet over the past year, weíve learned about a series of meetings and contacts between individuals linked to the Russian government and Trumpís campaign and transition team. In total, we have learned of 75 contacts between Trumpís team and Russia linked operatives, including at least 22 meetings. And we know that at least 22 high-ranking campaign officials and Trump advisors were aware of contacts with Russia-linked operatives during the campaign and transition. None of these contacts were ever reported to the proper authorities. Instead, the Trump team tried to cover up every single one of them.

The Trump denial plan:
1) No contact with any Russians (lie)
2) No contact with any Russians that we're aware of (lie)
3) Ok, maybe there was contact but it wasn't about the campaign (lie)
4) Ok, it was about the campaign but everyone does that (lie)
5) NO COLLUSION (lie)
6) Look, guys, collusion isn't a crime (lie)
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GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1541 on: May 23, 2018, 08:34:54 AM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

-Who actually had Russia ties? Hillary via Clinton Foundation
-Where did the 'Trump/Russia' story come from? Hillary, via Podesta
-Where is proof, actual verifiable facts (not just 'anonymous sources') of Trump/Russia connection? nowhere

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1542 on: May 23, 2018, 09:40:26 AM »
Sorry ya'll if you actually trust the MSM, you're in a small and shrinking minority... 
MSM and Dems seem to be locked in a suicide pact.

-Who actually had Russia ties? Hillary via Clinton Foundation
-Where did the 'Trump/Russia' story come from? Hillary, via Podesta
-Where is proof, actual verifiable facts (not just 'anonymous sources') of Trump/Russia connection? nowhere

I also love Fox not acknowledging that they are a big slice of the MSM.
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1543 on: May 23, 2018, 11:04:12 AM »
https://themoscowproject.org/explainers/trumps-russia-cover-up-by-the-numbers-70-contacts-with-russia-linked-operatives/

TRUMPíS RUSSIA COVER-UP BY THE NUMBERS Ė 75+ CONTACTS WITH RUSSIA-LINKED OPERATIVES

Quote
This brings the number of high-level campaign officials and Trump advisors were aware of contacts between the Trump team and Russia to 23. None of these 23 individuals ever revealed to federal law enforcement that the Russians were seeking to interfere with the election by aiding the campaign.

This is aiding and abetting.  Remember when Al Gore's campaign got sent an advanced copy of W's outline/plan for the debate and they IMMEDIATELY turned it over to the FBI without looking at the content?

Quote
Yet over the past year, weíve learned about a series of meetings and contacts between individuals linked to the Russian government and Trumpís campaign and transition team. In total, we have learned of 75 contacts between Trumpís team and Russia linked operatives, including at least 22 meetings. And we know that at least 22 high-ranking campaign officials and Trump advisors were aware of contacts with Russia-linked operatives during the campaign and transition. None of these contacts were ever reported to the proper authorities. Instead, the Trump team tried to cover up every single one of them.

The Trump denial plan:
1) No contact with any Russians (lie)
2) No contact with any Russians that we're aware of (lie)
3) Ok, maybe there was contact but it wasn't about the campaign (lie)
4) Ok, it was about the campaign but everyone does that (lie)
5) NO COLLUSION (lie)
6) Look, guys, collusion isn't a crime (lie)

How many Saudi and UAE contacts?
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1544 on: May 23, 2018, 11:05:29 AM »
How many Saudi and UAE contacts?

How could that possibly make things better instead of worse?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1545 on: May 23, 2018, 11:14:37 AM »
I see we are at the "I did it, but it wasn't that bad" and are transitioning to "I did it, but you made me do it" stage.

Gentmach: You have successfully argued that Spies Gonna Spy.  No one is disagreeing with you, and it's probably true that-despite best efforts-we ain't gonna catch 'em all.  It's easy to see why Russia spies on us, and we'd probably shake our heads if they didn't.

But we don't have to accept that U.S. political candidates got help from foreign governments in the form of various meddling.  Can we at least agree that we hold our politicians to have a higher level of concern for the well-being of the U.S. than a Russian spy?  "Thanks for these Hillary emails.  Especially late in the summer!" is not an inevitable and blameless outcome to Spies Gonna Spy.

Also, I'm not sure that evidence that Trump etc. met with more foreign governments and that we don't know it all is supportive of a lack of wrongdoing?  Like "well, little did you know that Trump was also casing a jewelry store, not just a bank!  Take that, libtards."

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1546 on: May 23, 2018, 11:24:07 AM »
Perhaps it is a good time to repeat what our own agencies have said about Russian interference in the 2016 election.

From the joint-report filed by the FBI, CIA and NSA in January 2017:
Quote

    We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russiaís goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.

    We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trumpís election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.

From the Senate Intelligence Committee's co-chairs Burr (R - NC) and Warner (D - VA), filed just last week:
Quote
The Russian effort was extensive, sophisticated, and ordered by President Putin himself for the purpose of helping Donald Trump and hurting Hillary Clinton

To the best of my knowledge, nothing even remotely similar has been found and disclosed about Saudi, UAE, Israeli, or any other nation's efforts to interfere with our elections.  For any presidential election.

Sources:
US Intelligence Agencies report (opens PDF)
US Senate Intelligence Committee Statement (opens PDF)
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MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1547 on: May 23, 2018, 01:44:23 PM »
No no you guys have it all wrong!

There was no Russia meddling. Well ok there was but there wasn't much to it. Well ok it was a big deal but they wanted Hillary to win. Well ok they didn't really want Hillary to win they wanted Trump to win BUT, it's no big deal it happens all the time. It's "negligible!"

Come on, what don't you guys get?

It takes some crazy ass mental gymnastics to try and defend the indefensible.

Every nation on Earth has something at stake in our elections. Our borders are unsecured and with the Advent of the internet, we have more open avenues for attack than ever. Some avenues of attack that are purposefully left open by our own intelligence services. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7)

If a nation has the capabilities, why not try? Using Tor and other programs makes it nearly impossible to trace. Larger nations have resources or capital that we cannot live without so have leverage on us even if they are caught.

Acknowledging that we are vulnerable on several fronts is hardly mental gymnastics.

Yeah, because that' exactly what I meant by mental gymnastics *eye roll*

It doesn't take much to be a hacker. Programming knowledge, computer with internet, time, patience and imagination.

Our institutions are under attack everyday from hostile actors. Most of these attempts fail. A few succeed, (someone didn't install a patch, malware piggy backed in on legitimate software).

Generally the public won't be alerted to or think about such things. If you suddenly zoom in on it, have radio stations, news channels and newspapers reminding the public every day that we were attacked, then people start freaking out. Peer pressure will make anyone who has questions look like a traitor.

Feel free to ask for assistance since you still don't seem to understand what "defending the indefensible means." Or keep tossing out random fallacies. Your choice.

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1548 on: May 23, 2018, 02:37:08 PM »
@Wexler Thank you sir. We can agree that we should hold our politicians to higher standards.

@MasterStache I'm not defending the indefensible. We can do our best efforts and still come up short.

@sol That is the thing I was talking about before we went on a tangent. There was a second meeting at Trump tower, this time with Saudi and UAE people offering help.

Now since we can agree that foreign intervention in our elections (even offering to) is absolutely unacceptable. So I expect to hear Democrats demanding investigations, sanctions and expelling diplomats.

Even our allies must be held to account for this ghastly tresspass.
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wenchsenior

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1549 on: May 23, 2018, 03:20:44 PM »
@Wexler Thank you sir. We can agree that we should hold our politicians to higher standards.

@MasterStache I'm not defending the indefensible. We can do our best efforts and still come up short.

@sol That is the thing I was talking about before we went on a tangent. There was a second meeting at Trump tower, this time with Saudi and UAE people offering help.

Now since we can agree that foreign intervention in our elections (even offering to) is absolutely unacceptable. So I expect to hear Democrats demanding investigations, sanctions and expelling diplomats.

Even our allies must be held to account for this ghastly tresspass.

One might also expect Republicans to demand the same things.  In normal world.