Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 123228 times)

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1350 on: February 08, 2018, 06:05:37 PM »
Quote
Given the above, a far more relevant question is, why do Trumpians have such blind faith that there aren't more skeletons in the closet?
Perhaps an even more basic question would be: how can anyone qualitatively state that the entire investigation has been a sham?

Maybe all the bad fruit has already fallen from the tree.  Maybe not.  But the National Security Advisor - a Lt General - plead guilty and was forced out of his post.  That would rank among the top scandals just about any other year.  Yet somehow people still question whether the investigation.
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Norioch

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1351 on: February 08, 2018, 06:22:08 PM »
Not sure how I can make this more simple. You need evidence of a crime to start an investigation and a political smear campaign is not evidence of a crime. What I have an issue with is using the power of the state to persecute political rivals.

Even if you dismiss the Steele Dossier as "a political smear campaign" as if the fact that it was partially funded by political rivals (both Democrat and Republican) immediately means that everything in it is false (even though many of its allegations have already been independently verified by other sources!), the investigation was already well underway before the FISA renewal in question, so the investigation was not *started* as a result of the Dossier. And it's just baffling to see the claim that the purpose of the investigation is "to prosecute polical rivals". Mueller is a Republican, Rosenstein is a Republican, and James Comey was a Republican for most of is life (now unaffiliated, but never a Democrat). Why would they be Trump's political rivals? Isn't it possible that the purpose of the investigation is to actually expose real crimes?

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1352 on: February 09, 2018, 04:38:09 AM »
I find it odd that liberals are agreeing with right wing people.

It happens. I find it odd that conservatives are agreeing with left wing people.

Senators John McCain, Flake, and Graham, among others

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

etc.

Quote
I'm not privy to the investigation. I just find the blind trust in our intelligence services disturbing.

Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russians before Trump took office. Michael Flynn wasn't some junior Trump staffer in Tulsa; he was the National Security Advisor.

Papadopoulos tried to arrange a meeting between Trump, the then Republican nominee, and Putin, the Russian dictator President. He emailed Manafort and Lewandowski and attended a meeting with Trump where he mentioned his connections and attempts. He also pled guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russian officials.

Given the above, a far more relevant question is, why do Trumpians have such blind faith that there aren't more skeletons in the closet?

Flynn was trying to influence Russians. And was actually paid by Turkish officials.

"According to prosecutors, on Dec. 22, Mr. Flynn discussed with Mr. Kislyak an upcoming United Nations Security Council vote on whether to condemn Israelís building of settlements. At the time, the Obama administration was preparing to allow a Security Council vote on the matter."(https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/01/us/politics/michael-flynn-guilty-russia-investigation.html?referer=https://t.co/VLw3wOLCCG)

I meant to say independent journalists keep find holes in the story. (I was in bit of a rush.)

Post Iraq War our intelligence services shouldn't be able to say "we have evidence" and use that "evidence" to raise tensions with a nuclear power. Why are we making decisions based on evidence we haven't seen.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1353 on: February 09, 2018, 09:46:08 AM »
I find it odd that liberals are agreeing with right wing people.

It happens. I find it odd that conservatives are agreeing with left wing people.

Senators John McCain, Flake, and Graham, among others

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

etc.

Quote
I'm not privy to the investigation. I just find the blind trust in our intelligence services disturbing.

Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russians before Trump took office. Michael Flynn wasn't some junior Trump staffer in Tulsa; he was the National Security Advisor.

Papadopoulos tried to arrange a meeting between Trump, the then Republican nominee, and Putin, the Russian dictator President. He emailed Manafort and Lewandowski and attended a meeting with Trump where he mentioned his connections and attempts. He also pled guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russian officials.

Given the above, a far more relevant question is, why do Trumpians have such blind faith that there aren't more skeletons in the closet?

Flynn was trying to influence Russians. And was actually paid by Turkish officials.

"According to prosecutors, on Dec. 22, Mr. Flynn discussed with Mr. Kislyak an upcoming United Nations Security Council vote on whether to condemn Israelís building of settlements. At the time, the Obama administration was preparing to allow a Security Council vote on the matter."(https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/01/us/politics/michael-flynn-guilty-russia-investigation.html?referer=https://t.co/VLw3wOLCCG)

I meant to say independent journalists keep find holes in the story. (I was in bit of a rush.)

Post Iraq War our intelligence services shouldn't be able to say "we have evidence" and use that "evidence" to raise tensions with a nuclear power. Why are we making decisions based on evidence we haven't seen.

Flynn did not register as a foreign agent beginning with his Turkey work. He did not register until well into 2017. This seems difficult to pass off as ignorance given his prior positions in the military and government.

Flynn straight up lied to the FBI about contacts with the Russians including both the Israel issue above and later pre-inauguration discussions with the Russians directly relating to sanctions imposed by the Obama administration (in response to Russian election meddling fittingly enough). Again, "Oops, I forgot." is a bit tough to swallow here. Do either of these things, in a vacuum, prove collusion? Of course not. However, trying to paint Flynn as an innocent who was just working for Turkey (Erdogan is no saint, by the way) is a misleading portrait of his actions.

Detailed timeline at:
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/michael-flynns-russia-timeline/
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acroy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1354 on: February 09, 2018, 11:16:28 AM »
As horrifying as all of this is, I have to admit it's fascinating to watch in real time the people who would have been Nixon's staunch defenders all through Watergate, dismissing the whole thing as smoke and mirrors. It's like a real-live historical documentary unfolding right before our eyes.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.
So all you've got in response to things you don't like is to throw shade at me personally? You gotta do what you gotta do, hope you feel better, and it helps you move on from the 'Denial/Anger' stages of grief. Life Happiness Tip: stop watching MSM, they teach the arts of bias, personal insults and snark, not things to be proud of. Learn how to read and determine facts from opinion - the two are so easily confused.

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.
As far as I can see the 'rest' of Russiagate is easily-spun conjecture, largely spun by triggered, hateful MSM. You'll see what you want to see. "Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." That's what I'm trying to do here, and I'll probably fail, people seem pretty invested in their opinion.

In the meantime, this is rapidly turning into Obamagate. Who knew and did what when in the O admin? Why are the swamp creatures suddenly so worried about facts coming to light? The same swamp creatures who claimed there was 'no scenario' Trump could win, his chance of winning is 'the Easter Bunny, doesn't exist' etc etc. And then he won, and 'their world ended'. Seldom have they been more wrong and never has it felt so good.

I'm glad O is gone and richer too. May the trend continue!
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/367972-the-link-between-obamas-departure-and-your-increasing-wealth
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GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1355 on: February 09, 2018, 11:42:50 AM »
Acroy, let's say your kid is going to a school.  A couple close drinking buddies of the teacher of your kid have turned out to be a pedophiles and arrested.  The teacher in the room next to your teacher has turned out to be a pedophile and was indicted.  The teaching assistant in your kid's classroom has turned out to be a pedophile and was indicted.  There's an ongoing investigation into the teacher of your kid.

Would you be telling all your fellow parents to move on and stop worrying?  Would you be arguing that the investigation was biased?  Would you still send your kid to the school?

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1356 on: February 09, 2018, 11:57:51 AM »
I'm glad O is gone and richer too. May the trend continue!
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/367972-the-link-between-obamas-departure-and-your-increasing-wealth

The fact that you think the President, in less than 13 months in office, has much of an impact on GDP, job growth, or the stock market tells me all I need to know about how little you understand about the correlation.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1357 on: February 09, 2018, 12:06:41 PM »

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.

The relevant facts that you are missing is that all four people you mentioned actively worked for the Trump campaign, and one of the two who pleaded guilty was appointed by Trump to an executive-level cabinet position after the election.  That's huge regardless of whether this is all there is, or whether more indictments are forthcoming. That investigation has already proven it has merit.

The other relevant fact that you are ignoring is that there was state-sponsored Russian interference in our election.  This has been confirmed by basically every intelligence agency we have, under oath and in public hearings. Whether there was willing cooperation on the US side is under investigation. It seems beyond bizarre to suggest that we shouldn't even investigate. That's what your so-called 'Russiagate' is; an investigation into Russian involvement in the 2016 election.

Finally I'll just reiterate how incredibly fast all of this has happened from a legal standpoint. In just over 7 months we have two guilty pleas and two convictions. It did not take very long as all to find criminal behavior that a grand-jury found prosecutable. Based on all other previous special investigations we can expect this to go on for at least another 18 months, probably longer.
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Dabnasty

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1358 on: February 09, 2018, 12:06:55 PM »
As horrifying as all of this is, I have to admit it's fascinating to watch in real time the people who would have been Nixon's staunch defenders all through Watergate, dismissing the whole thing as smoke and mirrors. It's like a real-live historical documentary unfolding right before our eyes.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.
So all you've got in response to things you don't like is to throw shade at me personally? You gotta do what you gotta do, hope you feel better, and it helps you move on from the 'Denial/Anger' stages of grief. Life Happiness Tip: stop watching MSM, they teach the arts of bias, personal insults and snark, not things to be proud of. Learn how to read and determine facts from opinion - the two are so easily confused.

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.
As far as I can see the 'rest' of Russiagate is easily-spun conjecture, largely spun by triggered, hateful MSM. You'll see what you want to see. "Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." That's what I'm trying to do here, and I'll probably fail, people seem pretty invested in their opinion.

In the meantime, this is rapidly turning into Obamagate. Who knew and did what when in the O admin? Why are the swamp creatures suddenly so worried about facts coming to light? The same swamp creatures who claimed there was 'no scenario' Trump could win, his chance of winning is 'the Easter Bunny, doesn't exist' etc etc. And then he won, and 'their world ended'. Seldom have they been more wrong and never has it felt so good.

I'm glad O is gone and richer too. May the trend continue!
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/367972-the-link-between-obamas-departure-and-your-increasing-wealth

Actually there's been about a thousand other responses which you either deny or ignore, that's the fascinating part.

Those charged held prominent roles in Trump's campaign so yes there is a connection between Trump and Russia even if there is no proof of his personal guilt. But maybe that's where the big misunderstanding lies. Are you under the impression that this investigation is to prove Trump broke the law?

You have supported the notion that the entire investigation is a political witch hunt and yet it has uncovered considerable wrongdoing by those within the campaign and who were active members of Trump's administration.

If the Whitehouse was being run like a business (which is what a lot of Trump voters think would be great) management would be responsible for the actions of their subordinates even if they were entirely unaware of their employees' illegal actions. It implies that management has poor judgment and failed to conduct due diligence in hiring them.

the_gastropod

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1359 on: February 09, 2018, 12:18:57 PM »
Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

I feel like you've already taken a bit of flack for this. But I'd like to add one more important point: these were *plea bargains*. Aka, they're guilty of more than their charges indicate. They also have information Mueller deems valuable enough to give them such bargains. It's pretty unbelievable you think this investigation is a witch hunt.

Norioch

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1360 on: February 09, 2018, 01:53:41 PM »
Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Trump Jr. has already publicly released emails admitting that he tried to conspire with the Russian government to get opp research on Hilary, which is a violation of 52 U.S. Code Section 30121. He admitted to it.

Trump Sr. has already stated publicly on national television that the reason he fired Comey was to stop the Russia investigation. That's obstruction of justice. He admitted to it.

There have been four indictments and two guilty pleas already, after seven months of investigation. The reason Trump Jr. and Trump Sr. yet haven't been indicted yet is because the investigation is ongoing, which means there's still potentially more we don't know about that they might be guilty of. It is *absurd* to just dismiss all this as "nothing to see here", and you're either being horribly disingenuous or horribly deceived if you say that.

Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1361 on: February 09, 2018, 08:46:59 PM »
Trump will not declassify the Democtic memo, after releasing the Republican one.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-won-t-declassify-democratic-memo-russia-probe-n846551

I mean, itís not like we didnít know it already, but this is just one more reminder: Trump has no shame, no morals, and no ethics. There is no bottom to what he will do.

Buckle up, buttercups.
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MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1362 on: February 10, 2018, 05:56:43 AM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Malaysia41

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1363 on: February 10, 2018, 09:54:56 AM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Yes! HSBC, Valeant, Scott Tucker and the Trump episodes were eye popping.  I mean, much of the Trump and HSBC stories I already knew, but to see the pieces put together in one coherent episode - well it was unsettling.

I'm not sure that people who voted for trump will appreciate that final slow pan over the faces of mesmerized Trump/Apprentice fans.

These episodes left me looking at the progressive movement as our only viable way out of these messes. Once they're in office, constitutional amendment to get money out of politics, declare corporations aren't people, etc. (I don't want anyone to send me any stupid d'souza docs about how some early 'progressives' were fascists - IDGAF). 

Any industry that is a public good shouldn't be allowed to organize as a for-profit. Non-profits can compensate workers well enough, and they don't require management to pursue anti-human projects for short term profits and growth.

Did you catch that Power Lunch segment during the Valeant episode?  It was like a intro to a WWF match. This is what for-profit 'news' looks like. 

Quote
"An explosion of M&A action in big pharma that is our big story and we've got every angle covered for ya!!! Top gun activist investor Bill Ackman, teaming up with VALEANT, Canadian drug company to bid for the botox maker ALLERGAN! WE call it PhARmaPaLOozA what does it mean for you? This, folks, is POWER LUNCH, And this, Sue, is your pOweR LuNCh on drUGs!!!!!!

I about fell out of my chair.  People WATCH that bullshit?  They think it's 'journalism'????   This is FOR-PROFIT SHOW BUSINESS - and shitty show business at that.

Consumer banking, news, healthcare,... any industry with regular decision points pitting people against profits, should not be for-profit.  Political campaigns too-they should rely on public funding, not on corporate / private donations- WTF do people expect?  As it is, for-profit corporations regularly engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us confused and thus,keep us buying their products. Just as corporate sponsored politicians engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us enraged and voting against the evil strawmen they draw in our minds on the for-profit news outlets day in and day out.

I cannot believe the bullshit we're living through these days.  And as far as I can tell it's all because we're A) children of the television age and 2) we've been conditioned to glorify unfettered capitalism - "the less 'evil regulation' the better" - and support it without question. Who are the biggest modern day capitalists of them all?  Russian oligarchs and Putin.  It makes sense that many die hard libertarians are totes down with Russia Today (double meaning intended).

/rant over.

MasterStache you brought out some rage leading me to think about those episodes again. I cannot believe the outcomes. It's just ... ugly.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 10:01:38 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1364 on: February 10, 2018, 11:43:12 AM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Just started last night with the VW episode. It never ceases to amaze me how trusting that some people are with the business sector. VW, Philip Morris, Big Oil, etc have proven time and time again that profit is way more important than people's lives.

JLee

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1365 on: February 10, 2018, 11:54:51 AM »

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.

The relevant facts that you are missing is that all four people you mentioned actively worked for the Trump campaign, and one of the two who pleaded guilty was appointed by Trump to an executive-level cabinet position after the election.  That's huge regardless of whether this is all there is, or whether more indictments are forthcoming. That investigation has already proven it has merit.

The other relevant fact that you are ignoring is that there was state-sponsored Russian interference in our election.  This has been confirmed by basically every intelligence agency we have, under oath and in public hearings. Whether there was willing cooperation on the US side is under investigation. It seems beyond bizarre to suggest that we shouldn't even investigate. That's what your so-called 'Russiagate' is; an investigation into Russian involvement in the 2016 election.

Finally I'll just reiterate how incredibly fast all of this has happened from a legal standpoint. In just over 7 months we have two guilty pleas and two convictions. It did not take very long as all to find criminal behavior that a grand-jury found prosecutable. Based on all other previous special investigations we can expect this to go on for at least another 18 months, probably longer.

Yes. The argument about "we've seen no collusion, this is a sham, and the whole investigation needs to be called off" is like police getting a search warrant for heroin in a house.  They enter the front door into the living room and see four bundles of cocaine in plain view and seize them. There's no evidence of heroin, though - so the whole thing is a sham, right?  No need to search the rest of the house...obviously it was a scam from the start.

MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1366 on: February 10, 2018, 02:34:53 PM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Yes! HSBC, Valeant, Scott Tucker and the Trump episodes were eye popping.  I mean, much of the Trump and HSBC stories I already knew, but to see the pieces put together in one coherent episode - well it was unsettling.

I'm not sure that people who voted for trump will appreciate that final slow pan over the faces of mesmerized Trump/Apprentice fans.

These episodes left me looking at the progressive movement as our only viable way out of these messes. Once they're in office, constitutional amendment to get money out of politics, declare corporations aren't people, etc. (I don't want anyone to send me any stupid d'souza docs about how some early 'progressives' were fascists - IDGAF). 

Any industry that is a public good shouldn't be allowed to organize as a for-profit. Non-profits can compensate workers well enough, and they don't require management to pursue anti-human projects for short term profits and growth.

Did you catch that Power Lunch segment during the Valeant episode?  It was like a intro to a WWF match. This is what for-profit 'news' looks like. 

Quote
"An explosion of M&A action in big pharma that is our big story and we've got every angle covered for ya!!! Top gun activist investor Bill Ackman, teaming up with VALEANT, Canadian drug company to bid for the botox maker ALLERGAN! WE call it PhARmaPaLOozA what does it mean for you? This, folks, is POWER LUNCH, And this, Sue, is your pOweR LuNCh on drUGs!!!!!!

I about fell out of my chair.  People WATCH that bullshit?  They think it's 'journalism'????   This is FOR-PROFIT SHOW BUSINESS - and shitty show business at that.

Consumer banking, news, healthcare,... any industry with regular decision points pitting people against profits, should not be for-profit.  Political campaigns too-they should rely on public funding, not on corporate / private donations- WTF do people expect?  As it is, for-profit corporations regularly engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us confused and thus,keep us buying their products. Just as corporate sponsored politicians engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us enraged and voting against the evil strawmen they draw in our minds on the for-profit news outlets day in and day out.

I cannot believe the bullshit we're living through these days.  And as far as I can tell it's all because we're A) children of the television age and 2) we've been conditioned to glorify unfettered capitalism - "the less 'evil regulation' the better" - and support it without question. Who are the biggest modern day capitalists of them all?  Russian oligarchs and Putin.  It makes sense that many die hard libertarians are totes down with Russia Today (double meaning intended).

/rant over.

MasterStache you brought out some rage leading me to think about those episodes again. I cannot believe the outcomes. It's just ... ugly.

Yep, moral of the story, you can have enough money to be above the law. The HSBC story I didn't know much about. A bank that went out of its way to hide money laundering for drug cartels further enabling the slaughter of tens of thousands of folks. And they get a slap on the wrist for it because "think of innocent people that would lose their jobs." The race car driver sobbing and blaming the government because him and his brother swindled millions from poor folks. He deserved what he got. Trump was probably the least surprising. I mean I already knew he was a compulsive liar and absolutely horrible businessman (which is why I crack up when folks say he is a great negotiator/businessman). No he is not. He is fucking horrible. He was so bad he started doing business with shady folks in other countries. Yep Russia included.

I will never buy a Volkswagen, never bank with HSBC, and absolutely never support any man/women with the shady moral and ethical character equivalent to Trump.   

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1367 on: February 16, 2018, 02:24:44 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.
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Malaysia41

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1368 on: February 16, 2018, 02:26:52 PM »
https://www.vox.com/2018/2/16/17020776/russian-indictments-robert-mueller

The full indictment.  It's worth the 20+ minutes to read the whole thing.
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PathtoFIRE

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1369 on: February 16, 2018, 02:37:41 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russians hated?

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1370 on: February 16, 2018, 02:53:29 PM »
There was no Russian interference!
Russia is no worse than the US at interfering in elections!
"Russiagate" is a sham inventend by the left!
Russia may have interfered, but they did not support any particular candidate!
Ok, Russia supported DJT, but there's no proof it influenced anyone's vote

... what will be said next to discredit the validity of the special investigation?
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1371 on: February 16, 2018, 03:26:36 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russiansliterally everyone but some Democrats hated?
Notice is turned in! 35 days until FIRE!  I am excited and at the same time terrified!
Don't burn your bridges folks. 4 days prior to the date lost my home and rental property to Hurricane Harvey.  Still workin' Never quittin'

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1372 on: February 16, 2018, 03:51:43 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russiansliterally everyone but some Democrats hated?

Yes somehow she managed to win the popular vote. Yes she didn't energize as many traditional voters that Democrats often count on, working class whites for example, who believed Trump was such a great businessman.

MDM

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1373 on: February 16, 2018, 03:58:36 PM »

Wexler

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1374 on: February 16, 2018, 04:02:12 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russiansliterally everyone but some Democrats hated?

No-place the blame where it belongs. It's the fault of the people who voted for Trump and the fault of the people who didn't bother to vote.   

Honestly, I wonder how many Trump voters I even know.  It would be social suicide in my area, but there may be some silent ones lurking.  I'm making a play to get nonvoters engaged this year.  It's a big group of people.




DavidAnnArbor

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1375 on: February 16, 2018, 04:06:31 PM »
I know a lot of Trump voters here in Michigan, and some of them are my friends. We just agree to disagree, but I don't mind engaging them in friendly discussions about the issues. It's especially curious that some of them need Obamacare subsidies and have voted against their own interests.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1376 on: February 16, 2018, 04:16:39 PM »
I know a lot of Trump voters here in Michigan, and some of them are my friends. We just agree to disagree, but I don't mind engaging them in friendly discussions about the issues. It's especially curious that some of them need Obamacare subsidies and have voted against their own interests.

I have a few of them in my family, and I know many more in New England. Broadly speaking I mostly see them in one of three camps (some belong to more than one)
:
1) republicans who's party is a core part of their identity. Mostly these people supported someone else in the primaries and couldn't vote for a non-republican. Note this is true of Democrats as well.

2) people who hated HRC. To them the well was poisoned long before she wrapped up the nomination, and absolutely nothing could bring them to support her.

3) those who feel/felt the recovery had passed them by and/or the government didn't adequitly represent them. I honestly sympahtize a lot with these people, and I can get why they chose to back someone who promised to blow it all up. when you feel like you are forgotten anyone who claims to listen (no matter how unlikely their promises or how sincere they may be) can seem better than the status quo.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1377 on: February 16, 2018, 08:56:01 PM »
Yes I know some in categories 1 and 2

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1378 on: February 20, 2018, 09:35:04 AM »
There's another guilty plea. Van Der Zwaan, a lawyer, lied to the FBI about meeting Rick Gates and the Ukrainians and "Person A."

Kushner is also getting special attention from Mueller.

Quote
Special counsel Robert Mueller's interest in Jared Kushner has expanded beyond his contacts with Russia and now includes his efforts to secure financing for his company from foreign investors during the presidential transition, according to people familiar with the inquiry.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/19/politics/mueller-investigation-kushner-foreign-financing-efforts/index.html

It'll be fascinating to see how that plays out re:a pardon and forced testimony (or state charges).*


I assume that Trump campaign staffers will stop lying to the FBI at any time as three have flipped. I also suspect that Kushner has been caught lying but Mueller is looking for additional charges.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:40:04 AM by bacchi »

jimmymango

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1379 on: February 21, 2018, 07:48:02 AM »
Quote
There's another guilty plea. Van Der Zwaan, a lawyer, lied to the FBI about meeting Rick Gates and the Ukrainians and "Person A."

Van Der Zwaan is an interesting catch. His father-in-law is German Khan, "is an owner of Alfa Group, Russiaís largest financial and industrial investment group" with close ties to Putin. Aside from that, Alfa Group was involved in a strange situation where one of their servers kept pinging one in Trump Tower. So far there is no conclusion about the nature of the communication, but it's an interesting coincidence, and all of it adds another thread to the web of connections.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/us/politics/alex-van-der-zwaan-gates-russia-mueller.html
2. https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/30/politics/full-us-list-of-russian-oligarchs-with-putin-ties-intl/index.html
3. https://www.snopes.com/trump-server-tied-to-russian-bank/
4. https://www.gq.com/story/how-muellers-latest-indictment-relates-to-the-steele-dossier

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1380 on: February 21, 2018, 09:55:07 AM »
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bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1381 on: February 21, 2018, 02:07:23 PM »
Van Der Zwaan is an interesting catch. His father-in-law is German Khan, "is an owner of Alfa Group, Russiaís largest financial and industrial investment group" with close ties to Putin.

I didn't realize that.

Trump's retinue is like a college apartment with 3 messy roommates -- you can't turn around without a (Russian linked) roach scurrying away.