Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 172490 times)

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1350 on: February 08, 2018, 06:05:37 PM »
Quote
Given the above, a far more relevant question is, why do Trumpians have such blind faith that there aren't more skeletons in the closet?
Perhaps an even more basic question would be: how can anyone qualitatively state that the entire investigation has been a sham?

Maybe all the bad fruit has already fallen from the tree.  Maybe not.  But the National Security Advisor - a Lt General - plead guilty and was forced out of his post.  That would rank among the top scandals just about any other year.  Yet somehow people still question whether the investigation.
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Norioch

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1351 on: February 08, 2018, 06:22:08 PM »
Not sure how I can make this more simple. You need evidence of a crime to start an investigation and a political smear campaign is not evidence of a crime. What I have an issue with is using the power of the state to persecute political rivals.

Even if you dismiss the Steele Dossier as "a political smear campaign" as if the fact that it was partially funded by political rivals (both Democrat and Republican) immediately means that everything in it is false (even though many of its allegations have already been independently verified by other sources!), the investigation was already well underway before the FISA renewal in question, so the investigation was not *started* as a result of the Dossier. And it's just baffling to see the claim that the purpose of the investigation is "to prosecute polical rivals". Mueller is a Republican, Rosenstein is a Republican, and James Comey was a Republican for most of is life (now unaffiliated, but never a Democrat). Why would they be Trump's political rivals? Isn't it possible that the purpose of the investigation is to actually expose real crimes?

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1352 on: February 09, 2018, 04:38:09 AM »
I find it odd that liberals are agreeing with right wing people.

It happens. I find it odd that conservatives are agreeing with left wing people.

Senators John McCain, Flake, and Graham, among others

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

etc.

Quote
I'm not privy to the investigation. I just find the blind trust in our intelligence services disturbing.

Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russians before Trump took office. Michael Flynn wasn't some junior Trump staffer in Tulsa; he was the National Security Advisor.

Papadopoulos tried to arrange a meeting between Trump, the then Republican nominee, and Putin, the Russian dictator President. He emailed Manafort and Lewandowski and attended a meeting with Trump where he mentioned his connections and attempts. He also pled guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russian officials.

Given the above, a far more relevant question is, why do Trumpians have such blind faith that there aren't more skeletons in the closet?

Flynn was trying to influence Russians. And was actually paid by Turkish officials.

"According to prosecutors, on Dec. 22, Mr. Flynn discussed with Mr. Kislyak an upcoming United Nations Security Council vote on whether to condemn Israel’s building of settlements. At the time, the Obama administration was preparing to allow a Security Council vote on the matter."(https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/01/us/politics/michael-flynn-guilty-russia-investigation.html?referer=https://t.co/VLw3wOLCCG)

I meant to say independent journalists keep find holes in the story. (I was in bit of a rush.)

Post Iraq War our intelligence services shouldn't be able to say "we have evidence" and use that "evidence" to raise tensions with a nuclear power. Why are we making decisions based on evidence we haven't seen.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1353 on: February 09, 2018, 09:46:08 AM »
I find it odd that liberals are agreeing with right wing people.

It happens. I find it odd that conservatives are agreeing with left wing people.

Senators John McCain, Flake, and Graham, among others

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

etc.

Quote
I'm not privy to the investigation. I just find the blind trust in our intelligence services disturbing.

Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russians before Trump took office. Michael Flynn wasn't some junior Trump staffer in Tulsa; he was the National Security Advisor.

Papadopoulos tried to arrange a meeting between Trump, the then Republican nominee, and Putin, the Russian dictator President. He emailed Manafort and Lewandowski and attended a meeting with Trump where he mentioned his connections and attempts. He also pled guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russian officials.

Given the above, a far more relevant question is, why do Trumpians have such blind faith that there aren't more skeletons in the closet?

Flynn was trying to influence Russians. And was actually paid by Turkish officials.

"According to prosecutors, on Dec. 22, Mr. Flynn discussed with Mr. Kislyak an upcoming United Nations Security Council vote on whether to condemn Israel’s building of settlements. At the time, the Obama administration was preparing to allow a Security Council vote on the matter."(https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/01/us/politics/michael-flynn-guilty-russia-investigation.html?referer=https://t.co/VLw3wOLCCG)

I meant to say independent journalists keep find holes in the story. (I was in bit of a rush.)

Post Iraq War our intelligence services shouldn't be able to say "we have evidence" and use that "evidence" to raise tensions with a nuclear power. Why are we making decisions based on evidence we haven't seen.

Flynn did not register as a foreign agent beginning with his Turkey work. He did not register until well into 2017. This seems difficult to pass off as ignorance given his prior positions in the military and government.

Flynn straight up lied to the FBI about contacts with the Russians including both the Israel issue above and later pre-inauguration discussions with the Russians directly relating to sanctions imposed by the Obama administration (in response to Russian election meddling fittingly enough). Again, "Oops, I forgot." is a bit tough to swallow here. Do either of these things, in a vacuum, prove collusion? Of course not. However, trying to paint Flynn as an innocent who was just working for Turkey (Erdogan is no saint, by the way) is a misleading portrait of his actions.

Detailed timeline at:
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/12/michael-flynns-russia-timeline/
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acroy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1354 on: February 09, 2018, 11:16:28 AM »
As horrifying as all of this is, I have to admit it's fascinating to watch in real time the people who would have been Nixon's staunch defenders all through Watergate, dismissing the whole thing as smoke and mirrors. It's like a real-live historical documentary unfolding right before our eyes.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.
So all you've got in response to things you don't like is to throw shade at me personally? You gotta do what you gotta do, hope you feel better, and it helps you move on from the 'Denial/Anger' stages of grief. Life Happiness Tip: stop watching MSM, they teach the arts of bias, personal insults and snark, not things to be proud of. Learn how to read and determine facts from opinion - the two are so easily confused.

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.
As far as I can see the 'rest' of Russiagate is easily-spun conjecture, largely spun by triggered, hateful MSM. You'll see what you want to see. "Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." That's what I'm trying to do here, and I'll probably fail, people seem pretty invested in their opinion.

In the meantime, this is rapidly turning into Obamagate. Who knew and did what when in the O admin? Why are the swamp creatures suddenly so worried about facts coming to light? The same swamp creatures who claimed there was 'no scenario' Trump could win, his chance of winning is 'the Easter Bunny, doesn't exist' etc etc. And then he won, and 'their world ended'. Seldom have they been more wrong and never has it felt so good.

I'm glad O is gone and richer too. May the trend continue!
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/367972-the-link-between-obamas-departure-and-your-increasing-wealth
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GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1355 on: February 09, 2018, 11:42:50 AM »
Acroy, let's say your kid is going to a school.  A couple close drinking buddies of the teacher of your kid have turned out to be a pedophiles and arrested.  The teacher in the room next to your teacher has turned out to be a pedophile and was indicted.  The teaching assistant in your kid's classroom has turned out to be a pedophile and was indicted.  There's an ongoing investigation into the teacher of your kid.

Would you be telling all your fellow parents to move on and stop worrying?  Would you be arguing that the investigation was biased?  Would you still send your kid to the school?

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1356 on: February 09, 2018, 11:57:51 AM »
I'm glad O is gone and richer too. May the trend continue!
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/367972-the-link-between-obamas-departure-and-your-increasing-wealth

The fact that you think the President, in less than 13 months in office, has much of an impact on GDP, job growth, or the stock market tells me all I need to know about how little you understand about the correlation.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1357 on: February 09, 2018, 12:06:41 PM »

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.

The relevant facts that you are missing is that all four people you mentioned actively worked for the Trump campaign, and one of the two who pleaded guilty was appointed by Trump to an executive-level cabinet position after the election.  That's huge regardless of whether this is all there is, or whether more indictments are forthcoming. That investigation has already proven it has merit.

The other relevant fact that you are ignoring is that there was state-sponsored Russian interference in our election.  This has been confirmed by basically every intelligence agency we have, under oath and in public hearings. Whether there was willing cooperation on the US side is under investigation. It seems beyond bizarre to suggest that we shouldn't even investigate. That's what your so-called 'Russiagate' is; an investigation into Russian involvement in the 2016 election.

Finally I'll just reiterate how incredibly fast all of this has happened from a legal standpoint. In just over 7 months we have two guilty pleas and two convictions. It did not take very long as all to find criminal behavior that a grand-jury found prosecutable. Based on all other previous special investigations we can expect this to go on for at least another 18 months, probably longer.
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Dabnasty

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1358 on: February 09, 2018, 12:06:55 PM »
As horrifying as all of this is, I have to admit it's fascinating to watch in real time the people who would have been Nixon's staunch defenders all through Watergate, dismissing the whole thing as smoke and mirrors. It's like a real-live historical documentary unfolding right before our eyes.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.
So all you've got in response to things you don't like is to throw shade at me personally? You gotta do what you gotta do, hope you feel better, and it helps you move on from the 'Denial/Anger' stages of grief. Life Happiness Tip: stop watching MSM, they teach the arts of bias, personal insults and snark, not things to be proud of. Learn how to read and determine facts from opinion - the two are so easily confused.

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.
As far as I can see the 'rest' of Russiagate is easily-spun conjecture, largely spun by triggered, hateful MSM. You'll see what you want to see. "Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." That's what I'm trying to do here, and I'll probably fail, people seem pretty invested in their opinion.

In the meantime, this is rapidly turning into Obamagate. Who knew and did what when in the O admin? Why are the swamp creatures suddenly so worried about facts coming to light? The same swamp creatures who claimed there was 'no scenario' Trump could win, his chance of winning is 'the Easter Bunny, doesn't exist' etc etc. And then he won, and 'their world ended'. Seldom have they been more wrong and never has it felt so good.

I'm glad O is gone and richer too. May the trend continue!
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/367972-the-link-between-obamas-departure-and-your-increasing-wealth

Actually there's been about a thousand other responses which you either deny or ignore, that's the fascinating part.

Those charged held prominent roles in Trump's campaign so yes there is a connection between Trump and Russia even if there is no proof of his personal guilt. But maybe that's where the big misunderstanding lies. Are you under the impression that this investigation is to prove Trump broke the law?

You have supported the notion that the entire investigation is a political witch hunt and yet it has uncovered considerable wrongdoing by those within the campaign and who were active members of Trump's administration.

If the Whitehouse was being run like a business (which is what a lot of Trump voters think would be great) management would be responsible for the actions of their subordinates even if they were entirely unaware of their employees' illegal actions. It implies that management has poor judgment and failed to conduct due diligence in hiring them.

the_gastropod

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1359 on: February 09, 2018, 12:18:57 PM »
Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

I feel like you've already taken a bit of flack for this. But I'd like to add one more important point: these were *plea bargains*. Aka, they're guilty of more than their charges indicate. They also have information Mueller deems valuable enough to give them such bargains. It's pretty unbelievable you think this investigation is a witch hunt.

Norioch

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1360 on: February 09, 2018, 01:53:41 PM »
Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Trump Jr. has already publicly released emails admitting that he tried to conspire with the Russian government to get opp research on Hilary, which is a violation of 52 U.S. Code Section 30121. He admitted to it.

Trump Sr. has already stated publicly on national television that the reason he fired Comey was to stop the Russia investigation. That's obstruction of justice. He admitted to it.

There have been four indictments and two guilty pleas already, after seven months of investigation. The reason Trump Jr. and Trump Sr. yet haven't been indicted yet is because the investigation is ongoing, which means there's still potentially more we don't know about that they might be guilty of. It is *absurd* to just dismiss all this as "nothing to see here", and you're either being horribly disingenuous or horribly deceived if you say that.

Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1361 on: February 09, 2018, 08:46:59 PM »
Trump will not declassify the Democtic memo, after releasing the Republican one.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-won-t-declassify-democratic-memo-russia-probe-n846551

I mean, it’s not like we didn’t know it already, but this is just one more reminder: Trump has no shame, no morals, and no ethics. There is no bottom to what he will do.

Buckle up, buttercups.
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MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1362 on: February 10, 2018, 05:56:43 AM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Malaysia41

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1363 on: February 10, 2018, 09:54:56 AM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Yes! HSBC, Valeant, Scott Tucker and the Trump episodes were eye popping.  I mean, much of the Trump and HSBC stories I already knew, but to see the pieces put together in one coherent episode - well it was unsettling.

I'm not sure that people who voted for trump will appreciate that final slow pan over the faces of mesmerized Trump/Apprentice fans.

These episodes left me looking at the progressive movement as our only viable way out of these messes. Once they're in office, constitutional amendment to get money out of politics, declare corporations aren't people, etc. (I don't want anyone to send me any stupid d'souza docs about how some early 'progressives' were fascists - IDGAF). 

Any industry that is a public good shouldn't be allowed to organize as a for-profit. Non-profits can compensate workers well enough, and they don't require management to pursue anti-human projects for short term profits and growth.

Did you catch that Power Lunch segment during the Valeant episode?  It was like a intro to a WWF match. This is what for-profit 'news' looks like. 

Quote
"An explosion of M&A action in big pharma that is our big story and we've got every angle covered for ya!!! Top gun activist investor Bill Ackman, teaming up with VALEANT, Canadian drug company to bid for the botox maker ALLERGAN! WE call it PhARmaPaLOozA what does it mean for you? This, folks, is POWER LUNCH, And this, Sue, is your pOweR LuNCh on drUGs!!!!!!

I about fell out of my chair.  People WATCH that bullshit?  They think it's 'journalism'????   This is FOR-PROFIT SHOW BUSINESS - and shitty show business at that.

Consumer banking, news, healthcare,... any industry with regular decision points pitting people against profits, should not be for-profit.  Political campaigns too-they should rely on public funding, not on corporate / private donations- WTF do people expect?  As it is, for-profit corporations regularly engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us confused and thus,keep us buying their products. Just as corporate sponsored politicians engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us enraged and voting against the evil strawmen they draw in our minds on the for-profit news outlets day in and day out.

I cannot believe the bullshit we're living through these days.  And as far as I can tell it's all because we're A) children of the television age and 2) we've been conditioned to glorify unfettered capitalism - "the less 'evil regulation' the better" - and support it without question. Who are the biggest modern day capitalists of them all?  Russian oligarchs and Putin.  It makes sense that many die hard libertarians are totes down with Russia Today (double meaning intended).

/rant over.

MasterStache you brought out some rage leading me to think about those episodes again. I cannot believe the outcomes. It's just ... ugly.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 10:01:38 AM by Malaysia41 »
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1364 on: February 10, 2018, 11:43:12 AM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Just started last night with the VW episode. It never ceases to amaze me how trusting that some people are with the business sector. VW, Philip Morris, Big Oil, etc have proven time and time again that profit is way more important than people's lives.

JLee

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1365 on: February 10, 2018, 11:54:51 AM »

Russia investigation facts to date:
4 people charged with either/or 1) doing illegal things before the campaign 2) lying
0 charges of anyone doing anything connecting Trump to Russia

*crickets*

Correct me if I missed any relevant facts.

The relevant facts that you are missing is that all four people you mentioned actively worked for the Trump campaign, and one of the two who pleaded guilty was appointed by Trump to an executive-level cabinet position after the election.  That's huge regardless of whether this is all there is, or whether more indictments are forthcoming. That investigation has already proven it has merit.

The other relevant fact that you are ignoring is that there was state-sponsored Russian interference in our election.  This has been confirmed by basically every intelligence agency we have, under oath and in public hearings. Whether there was willing cooperation on the US side is under investigation. It seems beyond bizarre to suggest that we shouldn't even investigate. That's what your so-called 'Russiagate' is; an investigation into Russian involvement in the 2016 election.

Finally I'll just reiterate how incredibly fast all of this has happened from a legal standpoint. In just over 7 months we have two guilty pleas and two convictions. It did not take very long as all to find criminal behavior that a grand-jury found prosecutable. Based on all other previous special investigations we can expect this to go on for at least another 18 months, probably longer.

Yes. The argument about "we've seen no collusion, this is a sham, and the whole investigation needs to be called off" is like police getting a search warrant for heroin in a house.  They enter the front door into the living room and see four bundles of cocaine in plain view and seize them. There's no evidence of heroin, though - so the whole thing is a sham, right?  No need to search the rest of the house...obviously it was a scam from the start.

MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1366 on: February 10, 2018, 02:34:53 PM »
Anyone watch Dirty Money on Netflix? Somewhat on/off topic. 6 episodes ranging from the VW scandal to HSBC money laundering for cartels/terrorist and the last episode is called The Confidence Man and it's about Trump's business empire. All the episodes were great. I highly advise to watch them all. It only solidified a lot of what I already know (I did learn some new things).

Yes! HSBC, Valeant, Scott Tucker and the Trump episodes were eye popping.  I mean, much of the Trump and HSBC stories I already knew, but to see the pieces put together in one coherent episode - well it was unsettling.

I'm not sure that people who voted for trump will appreciate that final slow pan over the faces of mesmerized Trump/Apprentice fans.

These episodes left me looking at the progressive movement as our only viable way out of these messes. Once they're in office, constitutional amendment to get money out of politics, declare corporations aren't people, etc. (I don't want anyone to send me any stupid d'souza docs about how some early 'progressives' were fascists - IDGAF). 

Any industry that is a public good shouldn't be allowed to organize as a for-profit. Non-profits can compensate workers well enough, and they don't require management to pursue anti-human projects for short term profits and growth.

Did you catch that Power Lunch segment during the Valeant episode?  It was like a intro to a WWF match. This is what for-profit 'news' looks like. 

Quote
"An explosion of M&A action in big pharma that is our big story and we've got every angle covered for ya!!! Top gun activist investor Bill Ackman, teaming up with VALEANT, Canadian drug company to bid for the botox maker ALLERGAN! WE call it PhARmaPaLOozA what does it mean for you? This, folks, is POWER LUNCH, And this, Sue, is your pOweR LuNCh on drUGs!!!!!!

I about fell out of my chair.  People WATCH that bullshit?  They think it's 'journalism'????   This is FOR-PROFIT SHOW BUSINESS - and shitty show business at that.

Consumer banking, news, healthcare,... any industry with regular decision points pitting people against profits, should not be for-profit.  Political campaigns too-they should rely on public funding, not on corporate / private donations- WTF do people expect?  As it is, for-profit corporations regularly engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us confused and thus,keep us buying their products. Just as corporate sponsored politicians engage in disinformation campaigns to keep us enraged and voting against the evil strawmen they draw in our minds on the for-profit news outlets day in and day out.

I cannot believe the bullshit we're living through these days.  And as far as I can tell it's all because we're A) children of the television age and 2) we've been conditioned to glorify unfettered capitalism - "the less 'evil regulation' the better" - and support it without question. Who are the biggest modern day capitalists of them all?  Russian oligarchs and Putin.  It makes sense that many die hard libertarians are totes down with Russia Today (double meaning intended).

/rant over.

MasterStache you brought out some rage leading me to think about those episodes again. I cannot believe the outcomes. It's just ... ugly.

Yep, moral of the story, you can have enough money to be above the law. The HSBC story I didn't know much about. A bank that went out of its way to hide money laundering for drug cartels further enabling the slaughter of tens of thousands of folks. And they get a slap on the wrist for it because "think of innocent people that would lose their jobs." The race car driver sobbing and blaming the government because him and his brother swindled millions from poor folks. He deserved what he got. Trump was probably the least surprising. I mean I already knew he was a compulsive liar and absolutely horrible businessman (which is why I crack up when folks say he is a great negotiator/businessman). No he is not. He is fucking horrible. He was so bad he started doing business with shady folks in other countries. Yep Russia included.

I will never buy a Volkswagen, never bank with HSBC, and absolutely never support any man/women with the shady moral and ethical character equivalent to Trump.   

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1367 on: February 16, 2018, 02:24:44 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.
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Malaysia41

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1368 on: February 16, 2018, 02:26:52 PM »
https://www.vox.com/2018/2/16/17020776/russian-indictments-robert-mueller

The full indictment.  It's worth the 20+ minutes to read the whole thing.
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PathtoFIRE

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1369 on: February 16, 2018, 02:37:41 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russians hated?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1370 on: February 16, 2018, 02:53:29 PM »
There was no Russian interference!
Russia is no worse than the US at interfering in elections!
"Russiagate" is a sham inventend by the left!
Russia may have interfered, but they did not support any particular candidate!
Ok, Russia supported DJT, but there's no proof it influenced anyone's vote

... what will be said next to discredit the validity of the special investigation?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1371 on: February 16, 2018, 03:26:36 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russiansliterally everyone but some Democrats hated?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1372 on: February 16, 2018, 03:51:43 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russiansliterally everyone but some Democrats hated?

Yes somehow she managed to win the popular vote. Yes she didn't energize as many traditional voters that Democrats often count on, working class whites for example, who believed Trump was such a great businessman.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1373 on: February 16, 2018, 03:58:36 PM »

Wexler

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1374 on: February 16, 2018, 04:02:12 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/16/17021248/russian-election-interference-sanders-stein-trump

Said it before and I'll say it again, all of our problems are because of how lousy a choice HRC was.  Keep blamin' Trump like you blamed GWB.  Every time you annoint a candidate we all lose.

This is nonsensical to me. Are you saying that it's Democrats' fault for nominating someone that the Russiansliterally everyone but some Democrats hated?

No-place the blame where it belongs. It's the fault of the people who voted for Trump and the fault of the people who didn't bother to vote.   

Honestly, I wonder how many Trump voters I even know.  It would be social suicide in my area, but there may be some silent ones lurking.  I'm making a play to get nonvoters engaged this year.  It's a big group of people.




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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1375 on: February 16, 2018, 04:06:31 PM »
I know a lot of Trump voters here in Michigan, and some of them are my friends. We just agree to disagree, but I don't mind engaging them in friendly discussions about the issues. It's especially curious that some of them need Obamacare subsidies and have voted against their own interests.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1376 on: February 16, 2018, 04:16:39 PM »
I know a lot of Trump voters here in Michigan, and some of them are my friends. We just agree to disagree, but I don't mind engaging them in friendly discussions about the issues. It's especially curious that some of them need Obamacare subsidies and have voted against their own interests.

I have a few of them in my family, and I know many more in New England. Broadly speaking I mostly see them in one of three camps (some belong to more than one)
:
1) republicans who's party is a core part of their identity. Mostly these people supported someone else in the primaries and couldn't vote for a non-republican. Note this is true of Democrats as well.

2) people who hated HRC. To them the well was poisoned long before she wrapped up the nomination, and absolutely nothing could bring them to support her.

3) those who feel/felt the recovery had passed them by and/or the government didn't adequitly represent them. I honestly sympahtize a lot with these people, and I can get why they chose to back someone who promised to blow it all up. when you feel like you are forgotten anyone who claims to listen (no matter how unlikely their promises or how sincere they may be) can seem better than the status quo.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1377 on: February 16, 2018, 08:56:01 PM »
Yes I know some in categories 1 and 2

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1378 on: February 20, 2018, 09:35:04 AM »
There's another guilty plea. Van Der Zwaan, a lawyer, lied to the FBI about meeting Rick Gates and the Ukrainians and "Person A."

Kushner is also getting special attention from Mueller.

Quote
Special counsel Robert Mueller's interest in Jared Kushner has expanded beyond his contacts with Russia and now includes his efforts to secure financing for his company from foreign investors during the presidential transition, according to people familiar with the inquiry.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/19/politics/mueller-investigation-kushner-foreign-financing-efforts/index.html

It'll be fascinating to see how that plays out re:a pardon and forced testimony (or state charges).*


I assume that Trump campaign staffers will stop lying to the FBI at any time as three have flipped. I also suspect that Kushner has been caught lying but Mueller is looking for additional charges.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:40:04 AM by bacchi »

jimmymango

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1379 on: February 21, 2018, 07:48:02 AM »
Quote
There's another guilty plea. Van Der Zwaan, a lawyer, lied to the FBI about meeting Rick Gates and the Ukrainians and "Person A."

Van Der Zwaan is an interesting catch. His father-in-law is German Khan, "is an owner of Alfa Group, Russia’s largest financial and industrial investment group" with close ties to Putin. Aside from that, Alfa Group was involved in a strange situation where one of their servers kept pinging one in Trump Tower. So far there is no conclusion about the nature of the communication, but it's an interesting coincidence, and all of it adds another thread to the web of connections.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/us/politics/alex-van-der-zwaan-gates-russia-mueller.html
2. https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/30/politics/full-us-list-of-russian-oligarchs-with-putin-ties-intl/index.html
3. https://www.snopes.com/trump-server-tied-to-russian-bank/
4. https://www.gq.com/story/how-muellers-latest-indictment-relates-to-the-steele-dossier

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1380 on: February 21, 2018, 09:55:07 AM »
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1381 on: February 21, 2018, 02:07:23 PM »
Van Der Zwaan is an interesting catch. His father-in-law is German Khan, "is an owner of Alfa Group, Russia’s largest financial and industrial investment group" with close ties to Putin.

I didn't realize that.

Trump's retinue is like a college apartment with 3 messy roommates -- you can't turn around without a (Russian linked) roach scurrying away.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1382 on: February 22, 2018, 09:57:05 AM »
Quote
Trump's retinue is like a college apartment with 3 messy roommates -- you can't turn around without a (Russian linked) roach scurrying away.

I went down a Reddit comment thread rabbit hole (so take it with a grain of salt) about Van Der Zwaan's guilty plea and I had the same takeaway from that thread as you. It's just Russians everywhere you look! It's tough to say the level of cooperation between the Russian government and the Trump campaign, but there was clearly an independent influence campaign (as spelled out by the Intelligence community), and a lot of contact (and subsequent lying about it) between members of the Trump campaign and Russians with ties to Putin.

I honestly think this all stems from Trump's ties to less-than-reputable sources of international financing (since he can't get anything out of U.S. banks because of his bankruptcy history in the 80s and 90s) and alleged money laundering related to his casinos and real estate.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1383 on: February 22, 2018, 10:09:09 AM »
I had the same takeaway from that thread as you. It's just Russians everywhere you look!

Just to throw another log on that fire...  Trump is in so deep with the Russians that his last two wives are literally from eastern bloc countries.  The man is in love with all things Soviet, and I've yet to figure out why.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1384 on: February 22, 2018, 10:22:11 AM »
I had the same takeaway from that thread as you. It's just Russians everywhere you look!

Just to throw another log on that fire...  Trump is in so deep with the Russians that his last two wives are literally from eastern bloc countries.  The man is in love with all things Soviet, and I've yet to figure out why.
First and third, I think, and the shortest marriage in the middle was to the American born wife.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1385 on: February 22, 2018, 11:09:40 AM »

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1386 on: February 22, 2018, 11:43:31 AM »
I had the same takeaway from that thread as you. It's just Russians everywhere you look!

Just to throw another log on that fire...  Trump is in so deep with the Russians that his last two wives are literally from eastern bloc countries.  The man is in love with all things Soviet, and I've yet to figure out why.

Unlimited interest free loans with "no strings attached"?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1387 on: February 22, 2018, 03:26:24 PM »
I had the same takeaway from that thread as you. It's just Russians everywhere you look!

Just to throw another log on that fire...  Trump is in so deep with the Russians that his last two wives are literally from eastern bloc countries.  The man is in love with all things Soviet, and I've yet to figure out why.

Unlimited interest free loans with "no strings attached"?

"there is definitely nothing in the fine print worth reading.  sign here!"
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1388 on: February 22, 2018, 09:33:10 PM »
The last episode of the WNYC podcast on Trump, about "alternative financing", has a good theory on sol's questions:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/trumpinc


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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1389 on: February 22, 2018, 09:48:47 PM »
The last episode of the WNYC podcast on Trump, about "alternative financing", has a good theory on sol's questions:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/trumpinc

Can you provide cliff notes for us?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1390 on: February 22, 2018, 09:53:37 PM »
The last episode of the WNYC podcast on Trump, about "alternative financing", has a good theory on sol's questions:
https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/trumpinc

Can you provide cliff notes for us?
Sure. The gist is that Trump seems to have been laundering Russian money through condos in questionable markets for years, as a way to get just enough money to convince others to give him more financing.

I'll let you take a listen (it's not that long) to see how they reached that conclusion.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1391 on: February 22, 2018, 10:40:10 PM »
Gates may be pleading guilty soon. He's under indictment on new charges of money laundering and fraud during the campaign (vs years before) and felt the pressure.

http://fox8.com/2018/02/22/new-charges-against-ex-trump-campaign-associates-paul-manafort-and-rick-gates/amp/

This sentence from the indictment strikes me as...amusing. In a future indictment, it's possible the name could simply be substituted.*

Quote from: DOJ
In furtherance of  the scheme, MANAFORT used his hidden overseas wealth to enjoy a lavish lifestyle in the United States, without paying taxes on that income.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1038391/download


* indictment.replace("MANAFORT", "KUSHNER")

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1392 on: February 22, 2018, 11:45:20 PM »
Gates may be pleading guilty soon. He's under indictment on new charges of money laundering and fraud during the campaign (vs years before) and felt the pressure.

I was actually kind of worried to see the news of the new indictments, because it means they're bringing charges instead of working a deal.  If he was being fully cooperative with the investigation, and giving them everything they wanted, they shouldn't need new charges.  Bringing new charges probably means the Mueller team is pissed, because this is them using their leverage against him.  I'd much rather see all mention of the charges against Gates and Manafort go quiet.

I really really hope that Donald Trump is just an idiot who is being played by the Russians instead of being a Russian mole turned wildly successful.  I hope he's a narcissistic grifter who is so insecure that he only cares about maintaining the illusion of wealth, and so took deals with the Russians and the mafia to finance his brand and not because he actually hates America and wants to tear it all down.  I hope that his campaign staff were bought and paid for by the Russian government, instead of being true believers, and can thus be bought back.  I hope that his affection for Soviet women is just a weirdly coincidental personal fetish, and not a sign of his affection for Mother Russia.  I hope that his pro-Russia positions during the campaign were just poorly conceived rally lines designed to get crowd reactions, and are not reflective of an underlying affinity for the actual ideas he has espoused.  I hope his plutocratic tendencies are genuinely homegrown American Reaganism style excesses, and not taught to him by Russian oligarchs.  I hope, but I also fear.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1393 on: February 23, 2018, 02:47:14 AM »
Gates may be pleading guilty soon. He's under indictment on new charges of money laundering and fraud during the campaign (vs years before) and felt the pressure.

I was actually kind of worried to see the news of the new indictments, because it means they're bringing charges instead of working a deal.  If he was being fully cooperative with the investigation, and giving them everything they wanted, they shouldn't need new charges.  Bringing new charges probably means the Mueller team is pissed, because this is them using their leverage against him.  I'd much rather see all mention of the charges against Gates and Manafort go quiet.

I really really hope that Donald Trump is just an idiot who is being played by the Russians instead of being a Russian mole turned wildly successful.  I hope he's a narcissistic grifter who is so insecure that he only cares about maintaining the illusion of wealth, and so took deals with the Russians and the mafia to finance his brand and not because he actually hates America and wants to tear it all down.  I hope that his campaign staff were bought and paid for by the Russian government, instead of being true believers, and can thus be bought back.  I hope that his affection for Soviet women is just a weirdly coincidental personal fetish, and not a sign of his affection for Mother Russia.  I hope that his pro-Russia positions during the campaign were just poorly conceived rally lines designed to get crowd reactions, and are not reflective of an underlying affinity for the actual ideas he has espoused.  I hope his plutocratic tendencies are genuinely homegrown American Reaganism style excesses, and not taught to him by Russian oligarchs.  I hope, but I also fear.
I've seen it speculated that Gates, and possibly Manafort, don't have enough good information to give up on Trump in order to do a deal.  That seems to me to be quite likely: both of them only came in to the Trump orbit during 2016, and the Russians had their (financial, and possibly sexual) hooks into Trump long before that.   Manafort left during the campaign, and Gates before Trump took office so any major crimes in office are out of their knowledge too.  I suspect that they were put in place by the Russians (get close to Trump and we'll forget the money you owe us) as a further channel of control.  They might have some knowledge of electoral collusion, I suppose, but without proof to offer Mueller he's probably just going to set them up as an awful warning to others who might have more knowledge.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1394 on: February 23, 2018, 05:43:00 AM »
I had the same takeaway from that thread as you. It's just Russians everywhere you look!

Just to throw another log on that fire...  Trump is in so deep with the Russians that his last two wives are literally from eastern bloc countries.  The man is in love with all things Soviet, and I've yet to figure out why.

Unlimited interest free loans with "no strings attached"?

You are more right than you know. Once US banks ceased funding Trump's shoddy business dealings in the US (again I emphasize Trump is an absolutely terrible businessman, and the fact that American banks refuse to give him more money is absolute proof), he sought it elsewhere. Russia happens to be one of those International countries where Trump decided to do businesses. They were more than happy to throw money at him. In interviews with those very close to him they explain that he never really cared who those folks were, what there dealings were, or even how they provided the money to him. He was so money hungry that he literally didn't care about the fine print. That attitude seems to run in the family.

Weather he colluded or not is actually irrelevant to me. The fact that Russia has leverage on the POTUS is much more concerning. And I don't think Trump cares much about being impeached. He cares MUCH more about losing his businesses, and thus the appearance that he is uber successful, ultra-rich, and the best negotiator on the planet. A lot of folks voted for him purely based on this facade.

It's not surprising that he has surrounded himself by those with Russian ties, Russian influence, etc. It's all part of his business. Now that he is President, the Russians couldn't be more pleased. And Trump just passed himself some huge tax breaks. It's a win-win for both.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 05:44:51 AM by MasterStache »

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1395 on: February 23, 2018, 07:13:15 AM »
Quote
Once US banks ceased funding Trump's shoddy business dealings in the US (again I emphasize Trump is an absolutely terrible businessman, and the fact that American banks refuse to give him more money is absolute proof), he sought it elsewhere.

Adam Davidson wrote two really good articles for The New Yorker last year detailing two corrupt hotel deals by the Trump organization in Azerbaijan and Georgia. Some highlights:

From "Trump's Business of Corruption": One foreign deal, a stalled 2011 plan to build a Trump Tower in Batumi, a city on the Black Sea in the Republic of Georgia, has not received much journalistic attention. But the deal, for which Trump was reportedly paid a million dollars, involved unorthodox financial practices that several experts described to me as “red flags” for bank fraud and money laundering; moreover, it intertwined his company with a Kazakh oligarch who has direct links to Russia’s President, Vladimir Putin. As a result, Putin and his security services have access to information that could put them in a position to blackmail Trump.

From "Donald Trump's Worst Deal": The Azerbaijanis behind the project were close relatives of Ziya Mammadov, the Transportation Minister and one of the country’s wealthiest and most powerful oligarchs. According to the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index, Azerbaijan is among the most corrupt nations in the world. Its President, Ilham Aliyev, the son of the former President Heydar Aliyev, recently appointed his wife to be Vice-President. Ziya Mammadov became the Transportation Minister in 2002, around the time that the regime began receiving enormous profits from government-owned oil reserves in the Caspian Sea. At the time of the hotel deal, Mammadov, a career government official, had a salary of about twelve thousand dollars, but he was a billionaire ... But the Mammadov family, in addition to its reputation for corruption, has a troubling connection that any proper risk assessment should have unearthed: for years, it has been financially entangled with an Iranian family tied to the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, the ideologically driven military force. In 2008, the year that the tower was announced, Ziya Mammadov, in his role as Transportation Minister, awarded a series of multimillion-dollar contracts to Azarpassillo, an Iranian construction company. Keyumars Darvishi, its chairman, fought in the Iran-Iraq War. After the war, he became the head of Raman, an Iranian construction firm that is controlled by the Revolutionary Guard. The U.S. government has regularly accused the Guard of criminal activity, including drug trafficking, sponsoring terrorism abroad, and money laundering ... No evidence has surfaced showing that Donald Trump, or any of his employees involved in the Baku deal, actively participated in bribery, money laundering, or other illegal behavior. But the Trump Organization may have broken the law in its work with the Mammadov family. The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, passed in 1977, forbade American companies from participating in a scheme to reward a foreign government official in exchange for material benefit or preferential treatment. The law even made it a crime for an American company to unknowingly benefit from a partner’s corruption if it could have discovered illicit activity but avoided doing so. This closed what was known as the “head in the sand” loophole.

1. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/trumps-business-of-corruption
2. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1396 on: February 23, 2018, 07:21:02 AM »
There is video around and about of Ivanka visiting Baku in relation to the Azerbaijan deal so there is evidence of her involvement in the Trump organisation's corruption.  She seems to have flown under the media radar rather so far on the Trump dodgy dealings but I'm betting Mueller hasn't forgotten about her.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1397 on: February 23, 2018, 08:34:46 AM »
There is video around and about of Ivanka visiting Baku in relation to the Azerbaijan deal so there is evidence of her involvement in the Trump organisation's corruption.  She seems to have flown under the media radar rather so far on the Trump dodgy dealings but I'm betting Mueller hasn't forgotten about her.

I don't believe he has. Mueller is chasing down every rabbit hole possible. Folks are scared, especially Republicans. It's why they are expending so much effort trying to divert/downplay the investigation. They aren't scared for Trump or his businesses so much as they are concerned about saving their own asses after electing this POS. Too bad so sad!

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1398 on: February 23, 2018, 08:56:28 AM »
Wish I jumped into this convo sooner.

I suspect where there is smoke, there is fire. I am an independent and think both parties are run by clowns and criminals, so I don't want anyone to think I am favoring one over the other.

I am though, a hardcore American.

I am literally fuming at the fact the russians, who I grew up in a time when they were are biggest adversaries, have pretty much gotten away with this and probably a lot more. It blows my mind that politics have gotten so bad here, and people so divisive, that we can't all come to see this as a major threat to the country we love, and instead both sides are using it to their advantage.

If I wasn't such a nationalist, I would sit back and think, let the Russians succeed because everyone has their heads so far up their asses they deserve this. And this is nothing. Due to the lack of any kind of meaningful retaliation, we've essentially collectively told the russians that they may continue.

And I can't put all the blame on Trump, even if I think he's corrupt, because I think Obama was weak as hell too, and part of the reason we got into this mess.

I can't think back to a time when we had a president who made it clear to out rivals that crossing a line would bring retaliation to the point it wasn't worth their effort. It had to have been before I was born in the 70s.

I am more disgusted with this than I am with any other issue facing our country. Imagine what the Chinese are learning from this about us.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:08:27 AM by KTG »

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1399 on: February 23, 2018, 09:05:45 AM »
http://www.businessinsider.com/rick-gates-pleads-guilty-mueller-investigation-2018-2

Quote
Rick Gates, a former adviser to President Donald Trump's campaign, is expected to plead guilty Friday and cooperate with special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation, according to multiple reports.

Just a witch hunt, tbh.
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