Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 192431 times)

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1300 on: February 02, 2018, 01:52:01 PM »
Am I the only one who feels completely underwhelmed by this memo?
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1301 on: February 02, 2018, 01:59:50 PM »
Am I the only one who feels completely underwhelmed by this memo?

As an indictment of federal law enforcement, yes it's underwhelming, but I think there is still value in it.

Specifically I think it very clearly demonstrates just how corrupt the Devin-Nunes-led House intelligence committee has become.  It appears to be doing Trump's obstruction-of-justice dirty work for him.

If Mueller is pursuing an obstruction of justice charge against Trump, any demonstrated collusion between Trump and Nunes would pretty much clinch it.

The specifics of the memo itself don't seem to help Trump nearly as much as he seems to think it should.  It basically says that Trump's campaign staff were under criminal investigation, which we already knew.  I mean, some of them have already been indicted.  I'm not sure why Trump thinks it helps him to release a memo that says "law enforcement was investigating the criminals who worked for me" as if that somehow proves his innocence.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 02:07:01 PM by sol »

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1302 on: February 02, 2018, 02:14:14 PM »
Am I the only one who feels completely underwhelmed by this memo?

As an indictment of federal law enforcement, yes, but I think there is still value in it.

Specifically I think it very clearly demonstrates just how corrupt the Devin-Nunes-led House intelligence committee has become.  It appears to be doing Trump's obstruction-of-justice dirty work for him.

If Mueller is pursuing an obstruction of justice charge against Trump, any demonstrated collusion between Trump and Nunes would pretty much clinch it.

Yeah... I get that... I just feel like all of these things had already occurred by yesterday (and in many ways long before that).  We had the FBI and the Dems publicly state that this was against the interests of our intelligence agencies and bad for our national security. They did it anyway.

Now that I've read it I keep thinking.... really?  this is it?? There doesn't seem to be anything here that wasn't already reported on, most of the insinuations are pretty thin and in several cases it seems counter-constructive to the GOP narrative that this is a politically motivated witch hunt - (e.g. it was Papadopoulos who first alerted the FBI to possible interference, not the Steele dossier; FISA courts extended survellance warrants no less than 3 times, suggesting they were effective at uncovering information not already reported on).

DJT risks further demonstrating that he's not acting in the interests of the United States (by going against 'grave concerns' of the FBI - whom he picked for god's sakes)... all to accomplish... what, exactly?
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1303 on: February 02, 2018, 02:23:01 PM »
DJT risks further demonstrating that he's not acting in the interests of the United States (by going against 'grave concerns' of the FBI - whom he picked for god's sakes)... all to accomplish... what, exactly?

I don't think Trump cares about the details.  The actual memo could reak "j/k just kidding" and he'd release it anyway, because he thinks the whole idea of the existence of a critical memo plays favorably with his base.  For him it's more about managing the theatricality of the process than about the specific content, and he thinks the public perception around it will help discredit the inevitable indictment against him. 

So the "purpose" of it is to lay the groundwork for the constitutional crisis he sees coming.  It's not about legal criteria, because he knows he's already lost the legal battle.  I think he's planning to rely on Congress, with the support of 25% of die-hard Americans who will support him no matter what, to snuff the impeachment process.  He knows he can't win on the facts, so he's playing the people instead.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1304 on: February 02, 2018, 02:39:27 PM »
oh FFS.  As an analogy - if one were accused of plotting to set their house on fire, the strategy here would be to actually set the house on fire, and then argue after the fact that that those trying to bring fire-starting indictments aren't interested in stopping the current fire, and earlier allegations show a prosecutorial bias against the fire-starter.
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Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1305 on: February 02, 2018, 02:42:07 PM »
DJT risks further demonstrating that he's not acting in the interests of the United States (by going against 'grave concerns' of the FBI - whom he picked for god's sakes)... all to accomplish... what, exactly?

I don't think Trump cares about the details.  The actual memo could reak "j/k just kidding" and he'd release it anyway, because he thinks the whole idea of the existence of a critical memo plays favorably with his base.  For him it's more about managing the theatricality of the process than about the specific content, and he thinks the public perception around it will help discredit the inevitable indictment against him. 

So the "purpose" of it is to lay the groundwork for the constitutional crisis he sees coming.  It's not about legal criteria, because he knows he's already lost the legal battle.  I think he's planning to rely on Congress, with the support of 25% of die-hard Americans who will support him no matter what, to snuff the impeachment process.  He knows he can't win on the facts, so he's playing the people instead.

Yep. The value is in the hubub, rather than the details. The outcry following the memo release also plays to his base.

We have definitely cemented that Nunes is a foot soldier with this, though. Interesting legal question: Can Mueller actually subpoena communications from the Intelligence Committee? That would seem to be necessary to prove coordination on the memo preparation as posited above.
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Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1306 on: February 02, 2018, 02:44:54 PM »
I don't think this one really is made more clear though use of analogy.
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bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1307 on: February 02, 2018, 02:47:17 PM »
Quote from: foxnews
White House: Document 'raises serious concerns' about integrity of decisions by DOJ and FBI

Quote from: foxnews
Fitton: FISA memo is 'devastating blow' to Mueller's Russia investigation


See? The DOJ and FBI are flawed with their investigations. Mueller has nothing. Nothing! #shameful

It also provides cover for a Kushner pardon.

Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1308 on: February 02, 2018, 02:49:35 PM »
Quote from: foxnews
White House: Document 'raises serious concerns' about integrity of decisions by DOJ and FBI

Quote from: foxnews
Fitton: FISA memo is 'devastating blow' to Mueller's Russia investigation


See? The DOJ and FBI are flawed with their investigations. Mueller has nothing. Nothing! #shameful

It also provides cover for a Kushner pardon.
We can add this to the pile:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/372072-republican-rep-on-memo-fbi-conduct-constitutes-treason
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Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1309 on: February 02, 2018, 04:33:23 PM »
The Mueller investigation should be ended and the DOJ and FBI investigated by a legitimate independent council for attempting to undermine our government. People need to be held accountable.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1310 on: February 02, 2018, 04:45:53 PM »
The Mueller investigation should be ended and the DOJ and FBI investigated by a legitimate independent council for attempting to undermine our government. People need to be held accountable.

There is some tasty irony here given that the focus of Mueller's investigation is to look at foreign influences attempting to undermine our government. Remember when Mueller was appointed and there was bipartisan praise for how sterling his reputation and ability to be independent was? Notice also how the Nunes memo says nothing about Mueller? Even Trey Gowdy (aka, Mr. Benghazi) says that the Nunes memo has nothing to do with Mueller.

A lot of people are calling for Mueller's investigation to end without knowing what his investigation has found or how it has actually been conducted. So far, what is known is that a lot of partisans are unhappy, and that there have been multiple guilty pleas.

There is no disagreement among intelligence agencies that Russia interfered with our election process. None. Zero. Let's let the investigations into that bear fruit. That is far more important than the career of any individual politician or investigator.
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Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1311 on: February 02, 2018, 05:38:05 PM »
The Mueller investigation should be ended and the DOJ and FBI investigated by a legitimate independent council for attempting to undermine our government. People need to be held accountable.

There is some tasty irony here given that the focus of Mueller's investigation is to look at foreign influences attempting to undermine our government. Remember when Mueller was appointed and there was bipartisan praise for how sterling his reputation and ability to be independent was? Notice also how the Nunes memo says nothing about Mueller? Even Trey Gowdy (aka, Mr. Benghazi) says that the Nunes memo has nothing to do with Mueller.

A lot of people are calling for Mueller's investigation to end without knowing what his investigation has found or how it has actually been conducted. So far, what is known is that a lot of partisans are unhappy, and that there have been multiple guilty pleas.

There is no disagreement among intelligence agencies that Russia interfered with our election process. None. Zero. Let's let the investigations into that bear fruit. That is far more important than the career of any individual politician or investigator.

Not a fan of anyone being investigated due to political differences. Using the power of state to go after political rivals is never okay. Also, I suggest you look up the 16 Intel agencies and let us know why many of them would be involved when their responsibility is not aligned. Can't imagine the air force Intel agency looking into this.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1312 on: February 02, 2018, 05:40:58 PM »
The Mueller investigation should be ended and the DOJ and FBI investigated by a legitimate independent council for attempting to undermine our government. People need to be held accountable.

Just got to say this out loud...

you want the investigation to be stopped, and the investigator investigated by a new investigative team for the way they did their investigating?
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Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1313 on: February 02, 2018, 05:42:36 PM »
The Mueller investigation should be ended and the DOJ and FBI investigated by a legitimate independent council for attempting to undermine our government. People need to be held accountable.

Just got to say this out loud...

you want the investigation to be stopped, and the investigator investigated by a new investigative team for the way they did their investigating?

Mostly, but I never said Mueller should be investigated

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1314 on: February 02, 2018, 05:45:17 PM »
The Mueller investigation should be ended and the DOJ and FBI investigated by a legitimate independent council for attempting to undermine our government. People need to be held accountable.

Just got to say this out loud...

you want the investigation to be stopped, and the investigator investigated by a new investigative team for the way they did their investigating?

Mostly, but I never said Mueller should be investigated

So we stop the investigation but don't investigate it?  How come?
Do we just sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1315 on: February 02, 2018, 05:46:48 PM »
So, for those of us who read the memo and can critically think . . . it really seems like a silly bit of theatrics.  Trump obviously knows the folks he's targeting though.  He's using the same tactics that are used to sucker them into homeopathic treatment, autism being caused by vaccines, or climate change denial.  Just lie constantly, over and over, with the pretence of authority and a glimmer in your eye.  There is a subset of the population who will respond to it.

You can see them in this thread conveniently forgetting all of the key facts in the case in order to argue the ridiculous narrative that multiple government agencies are out to get Donald Trump.
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Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1316 on: February 02, 2018, 05:49:16 PM »
The Mueller investigation should be ended and the DOJ and FBI investigated by a legitimate independent council for attempting to undermine our government. People need to be held accountable.

Just got to say this out loud...

you want the investigation to be stopped, and the investigator investigated by a new investigative team for the way they did their investigating?

Mostly, but I never said Mueller should be investigated

So we stop the investigation but don't investigate it?  How come?
Do we just sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened?

You start with proof. Evidence is thrown out all the time but a fair and impartial system of justice is what we are supposed to have. I get it, lots here don t like the president but that does not mean we allow crimes to take place in order to be rid of him. The ends don t justify the means.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1317 on: February 02, 2018, 05:55:59 PM »
what crimes are you referring to?  How do you obtain proof if you can't investigate?
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Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1318 on: February 02, 2018, 06:00:40 PM »
what crimes are you referring to?  How do you obtain proof if you can't investigate?

Who is saying you can't investigate? Federal government has a whole slew of laws dealing with things like perjury, political actions by federal employees. Stop trying to justify an investigation conducted to undermine our political process.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1319 on: February 02, 2018, 06:06:47 PM »
what crimes are you referring to?  How do you obtain proof if you can't investigate?

Who is saying you can't investigate? Federal government has a whole slew of laws dealing with things like perjury, political actions by federal employees. Stop trying to justify an investigation conducted to undermine our political process.

Do we understand correctly that an investigation to undermine political process is to undo the Trump election?

The investigation is about Russian election interference. Many of Trump's associates were neck-deep in Russian contacts. Manfort is probably the poster child for this. That should be investigated.

For the simple version, see:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/12/01/timeline-events-related-russia-investigation/914959001/
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Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1320 on: February 02, 2018, 06:26:36 PM »
what crimes are you referring to?  How do you obtain proof if you can't investigate?

Who is saying you can't investigate? Federal government has a whole slew of laws dealing with things like perjury, political actions by federal employees. Stop trying to justify an investigation conducted to undermine our political process.

Do we understand correctly that an investigation to undermine political process is to undo the Trump election?

The investigation is about Russian election interference. Many of Trump's associates were neck-deep in Russian contacts. Manfort is probably the poster child for this. That should be investigated.

For the simple version, see:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/12/01/timeline-events-related-russia-investigation/914959001/

I need more. US citizens can meet with Russian officials. So now we can only meet with citizens from an acceptable country? I understand that if you are working on behalf of a foreign government in a position to influence US policy you must register and if this is the case then let's start investigating there. What I have an issue with us using the power of the state to go after political opponents. Let's stay in topic and stop trying to gloss over the fact that a political party apparently tried to undermine our system of government by using the power of state as their enforcement mechanism.

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1321 on: February 02, 2018, 06:57:37 PM »
Let's stay in topic and stop trying to gloss over the fact that a political party apparently tried to undermine our system of government by using the power of state as their enforcement mechanism.

Yes!  That's why we have an investigation!  Trump totally did that! 

Then he continued to do it, by firing one staff member and government official after another that he felt was more loyal to the country and the constitution than to him personally.  He has actively undermined the justice department and the fbi at every turn.  He is systematically tearing down the democratic norms that make America great.  I see that you and I are united in demanding a reckoning.

Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1322 on: February 02, 2018, 07:07:20 PM »
Let's stay in topic and stop trying to gloss over the fact that a political party apparently tried to undermine our system of government by using the power of state as their enforcement mechanism.

Yes!  That's why we have an investigation!  Trump totally did that! 

Then he continued to do it, by firing one staff member and government official after another that he felt was more loyal to the country and the constitution than to him personally.  He has actively undermined the justice department and the fbi at every turn.  He is systematically tearing down the democratic norms that make America great.  I see that you and I are united in demanding a reckoning.

Oh. Please explain what he was doing when this information went to the FISA courts. Stop trying to be cutesy, as a supposed federal employee you know the rules. You are arguing something that I am not. When is it okay to use the power of state to go after political rivals? When is that ok?

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1323 on: February 02, 2018, 08:25:00 PM »
what crimes are you referring to?  How do you obtain proof if you can't investigate?

Who is saying you can't investigate? Federal government has a whole slew of laws dealing with things like perjury, political actions by federal employees. Stop trying to justify an investigation conducted to undermine our political process.

You said we “cannot allow crimes to take place” just to justify and investigation.
I repeat: what crimes are you referring to?
 
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Mac_MacGyver

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1324 on: February 02, 2018, 08:51:25 PM »
what crimes are you referring to?  How do you obtain proof if you can't investigate?

Who is saying you can't investigate? Federal government has a whole slew of laws dealing with things like perjury, political actions by federal employees. Stop trying to justify an investigation conducted to undermine our political process.

You said we “cannot allow crimes to take place” just to justify and investigation.
I repeat: what crimes are you referring to?
 

Not sure how I can make this more simple. You need evidence of a crime to start an investigation and a political smear campaign is not evidence of a crime. What I have an issue with is using the power of the state to persecute political rivals. Furthermore you are putting in quotes what I did not say, not sure how laws work in Italy if your location is correct but it is a crime to falsify information to a court in the United States. Back To The pOint though, When Is It ok To Use The Power of the state TO Go after Political rivals? Sorry About THe Capital Letters, Its The amazon Fire.

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1325 on: February 02, 2018, 09:10:21 PM »
what crimes are you referring to?  How do you obtain proof if you can't investigate?

Who is saying you can't investigate? Federal government has a whole slew of laws dealing with things like perjury, political actions by federal employees. Stop trying to justify an investigation conducted to undermine our political process.

You said we “cannot allow crimes to take place” just to justify and investigation.
I repeat: what crimes are you referring to?
 

Not sure how I can make this more simple. You need evidence of a crime to start an investigation and a political smear campaign is not evidence of a crime. What I have an issue with is using the power of the state to persecute political rivals. Furthermore you are putting in quotes what I did not say, not sure how laws work in Italy if your location is correct but it is a crime to falsify information to a court in the United States. Back To The pOint though, When Is It ok To Use The Power of the state TO Go after Political rivals? Sorry About THe Capital Letters, Its The amazon Fire.

I think nereo is in Canada.

Who is using the power of the state to persecute political rivals? Congress? Trump? Hillary? What proof is there of that occurring?

Remember, there are already 2 guilty pleas from Trump campaign staffers for lying to the FBI about dealings with foreign nationals.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1326 on: February 02, 2018, 09:20:30 PM »
Let's stay in topic and stop trying to gloss over the fact that a political party apparently tried to undermine our system of government by using the power of state as their enforcement mechanism.

Yes!  That's why we have an investigation!  Trump totally did that! 

Then he continued to do it, by firing one staff member and government official after another that he felt was more loyal to the country and the constitution than to him personally.  He has actively undermined the justice department and the fbi at every turn.  He is systematically tearing down the democratic norms that make America great.  I see that you and I are united in demanding a reckoning.

When is it okay to use the power of state to go after political rivals? When is that ok?

Do you think this investigation is also inappropriate?

www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/22/doj-scrutiny-opens-door-to-new-uranium-one-investigation.html

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1327 on: February 03, 2018, 12:19:18 AM »
I'm just getting more and more confused about this whole memo thing. 

One of Trump's foreign policy advisors was caught up in a Russian spy ring in 2013 (three people went to prison) and then he went to Russia while working for Trump and gave some anti-American speeches.  The FBI's job is to keep an eye on Americans it thinks might might be working for foreign powers, so they were wiretapping him.  With good reason, it sounds like.

The wiretaps were renewed four times, 90 days apart.  Between the third and fourth renewals, and apparently unrelated, the Steele dossier was made public and Nunes thinks this means the wiretaps were an illegal abuse of power by the FBI.

I just don't get it.  How does it help Trump to admit that another one of his staffers was working for the Russians?  Why does he thinks this protects him? 

Yea, we get it.  Like half of your senior campaign staff were secretly working for the Russians.  Why are you publicly adding names to that list, and blaming democrats?  I used to think the whole memo things was just a PR stunt, and the content of the memo was kind of irrelevant, but instead it looks like the content is actually pretty damning for Trump.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 12:23:01 AM by sol »

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1328 on: February 03, 2018, 12:47:18 AM »
The wiretaps were renewed four times, 90 days apart.  Between the third and fourth renewals, and apparently unrelated, the Steele dossier was made public and Nunes thinks this means the wiretaps were an illegal abuse of power by the FBI.
What does the date of the Steele dossier being made public have to do with anything?

Nunes claims that the Steele dossier and its origins/funding was known to the FBI and was part of the evidence presented in the original FISA application.  Before the dossier was public.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1329 on: February 03, 2018, 01:14:38 AM »
The wiretaps were renewed four times, 90 days apart.  Between the third and fourth renewals, and apparently unrelated, the Steele dossier was made public and Nunes thinks this means the wiretaps were an illegal abuse of power by the FBI.
What does the date of the Steele dossier being made public have to do with anything?

Nunes claims that the Steele dossier and its origins/funding was known to the FBI and was part of the evidence presented in the original FISA application.  Before the dossier was public.

Yep, the timeline is important. The dossier was created years after the FBI took an interest in Carter Page, as sol noted. Back when Russian spies were talking about recruiting him.

It's also ironic that the memo, in its effort to counter Russian-Trump connections, mentions Papadopoulos, who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with officials from...Russia.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1330 on: February 03, 2018, 01:26:00 AM »
was part of the evidence presented in the original FISA application.  Before the dossier was public.

Was the FISA warrant before or after he got caught up with the Russian spy ring in 2013 that sent three people to federal prison?

See?  The whole thing is baffling.  Why would he draw attention to this?  Approximately half of his senior was staff was either on the Russian payroll, or had been recruited by Russian spies, or was secretly promoting Russian interests.  Perhaps all three at the same time.  I fail to see what advantage Trump sees in publicizing this problem.  How does this protect him from accusations of collusion with Russia, to publicly add another name to this list?

Maybe it's just like Don Jr releasing the emails that the NY Times was about to release, proving their attempt at collusion?  Like they think it's better to get the bad info out there themselves, rather than having the press report it and being caught apparently red handed?  That's all I can figure, that it's an attempt to get out in front of the story by claiming ownership of it? 

"Yes, my foreign policy adviser was working for the Russians, but it's okay because the FBI was investigating him for being an unregistered foreign agent."  That doesn't exactly seem like it protects Trump from the Russia investigation, that seems to add another count to the indictment. 

Seriously people, how many people in the Trump campaign leadership have to be taking money from the Russians before it's plain that Russia was interfering with the campaign?  You'd think one would be enough.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1331 on: February 03, 2018, 05:09:58 AM »
sol, your mistake is that you are using logic logic whereas Trump is using Trump logic.

Trump logic says that most people, most of the time, take what is said to us at face value.  We don't investigate every statement for its underlying logic, partly because we are conditioned as children to accept what adults say to us and tend to keep that as our default, partly because life's too short, partly because it's a fair amount of work to investigate facts fully, partly because unravelling someone else's twisted logic is a difficult intellectual exercise beyond the interest or capacity of most people.

So Trump tells lies.  He knows that a small subset of people in the media will investigate and correct them.  He knows that most people will either eagerly believe what he has said because it accords with their world view or they will casually go along with it because doing anything else is more effort than they are prepared to put in.  Trump hopes that if he tells enough lies he will sufficiently bamboozle enough people that 1) the Republicans in Congress will be able to get away with continuing to support him and 2) there will be a sufficiently large sector of public opinion to allow Republicans to continue to support him, and possibly to enable juries not to convict him, his friends and associates.

Short term, Trump is going to continue lying and obfuscating and to continue getting away with it.  Longer term, my hope is that Mueller will get enough guilty pleas, and enough sufficiently compelling evidence in prosecutions, that a proportion of the previously bamboozled in Congress and the public will reassess their views and swing behind what appears to many of us to be the truth: that Trump conspired with the Russians to affect the public messaging in the 2016 Presidential election and that he has been trying to cover up for that ever since.  If Mueller doesn't, then god help us all because the Trump playbook is the playbook of undemocratic leaders throughout history and all over the world.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 06:52:31 AM by former player »
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1332 on: February 03, 2018, 06:31:23 AM »

You said we “cannot allow crimes to take place” just to justify and investigation.
I repeat: what crimes are you referring to?
 

Not sure how I can make this more simple. You need evidence of a crime to start an investigation and a political smear campaign is not evidence of a crime. What I have an issue with is using the power of the state to persecute political rivals. Furthermore you are putting in quotes what I did not say, not sure how laws work in Italy if your location is correct but it is a crime to falsify information to a court in the United States. Back To The pOint though, When Is It ok To Use The Power of the state TO Go after Political rivals? Sorry About THe Capital Letters, Its The amazon Fire.

Your statements are so disjointed I can only come up with two possibilities - either you do not understand the publicly available facts of this dicussion (not entirely surprising, given the level of obstufication going on by multiple parties) or you do understand them but you just don't care.

To clear up a few things first so we can have an actual discussion.
1) I am currently in Canada, but a US citizen.
2) in reference to above, here is the your quote from earlier
Quote
I get it, lots here don t like the president but that does not mean we allow crimes to take place in order to be rid of him. The ends don t justify the means.
.  Several people have asked you which crimes you are referring to, including myself. From what I gather in your response the (a) crime you are talking about is falsifying information to a federal court (in this case FISA).  Ok, let's unpack that this entire statement a bit more

1) There were four FISA warrants issued (three renewals), with the original focusing on Carter Page.  Mr Page has been  has been on the intelligence community's radar since at least 2013. Ergo, the timeline is wrong - it makes no sense to claim that the warrants were issued because of the Steele dossier, as they had already been issued and renewed twice before this time period.
Ironically the latest memo discloses that it was another Trump Advisor - George Papadopoulos - that triggered the FISA warrant on Carter Page, and Papadopoulos has plead guilty for lying to the FBI about his RUssian contacts.

2) regarding the 'Steele dossier' - the complaint here seems to be that it must be rejected out of hand because it was paid for first by a conservative group and then by the HRC campaign. However, who paid for it isn't justification for rejecting what was inside it. Steele was an MI6 intelligence operative - with whom we have an ongoing alliance ("Five Eyes").

3) The idea that political affiliation has 'tainted' the investigation. This line is flawed both in theory and in practice.  For theory - there's no expectation that members of the justice department will share the same political views as the people they are investigating. A 'jury of your peers' does not mean only people who think just like you. Judges sentence people with opposing political views all the time. In practice this line of attack makes even less sense.  Mueller was appointed by a republican (Bush) and is republican himself. Wray was appointed by Trump. Papadopoulos (who triggered the FISA warrants in the first place) was a senior-level Trump campaign staffer. This latest memo shows that at least one of the FISA renewals was approved by Boente, who Trump appointed to temporarily replace acting AG Yates (who he fired). Rosenstein (another republican) was also appointed by Trump.  Sessions (yet another Trump appointee and Republican) recused himself after giving false testimony under oath to congress about previous encounters with Russian operatives (he maintains it was an clerical error, but has not changed his recusal). If anything its noteworthy how many republicans are at the heart of this investigation.

4) undercutting the argument that this is some sort of 'witch hunt' are two grand jury indictments and two guilty pleas. This includes Michael Flynn's guilty plea - Trump's national security advisor & US Army Lt. General. The significance of this should be underplayed for three reasons; i) had Flynn's lawyers believed the case was tainted by prosecutorial misconduct (which ultimately would get the case against him tossed out) its almost inconceivable he would have pled guilty, and ii) this is someone appointed to a cabinet level position by DJT despite warnings from the previous administration and iii) his guilty plea occurred just 7 months into the appointment of Mueller - which is remarkable for its rapidity.  The average duration of special councils is about two years, with many taking far longer.  In all likelihood we are in somewhere in the first quarter of this investigation and we already have these charges and confessions.

To be clear - I maintain that we must 'wait and see' where the evindence goes before condemning more people in the court of public opinion. Many here see so much smoke and conclude there must be a much bigger fire, and that DJT must be at the heart of it - I don't think it is wise to make this leap.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 12:18:21 PM by nereo »
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former player

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1333 on: February 03, 2018, 12:12:27 PM »
Mr Page has been indicted by the special prosecutor
Not yet?  He was "male 1" in the evidence leading to the 2013 spying convictions, though.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1334 on: February 03, 2018, 12:19:14 PM »
Mr Page has been indicted by the special prosecutor
Not yet?  He was "male 1" in the evidence leading to the 2013 spying convictions, though.

Good catch - updated post to correct.
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DavidAnnArbor

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1335 on: February 03, 2018, 12:34:02 PM »
I hope the deep state reveals more of the Trump-Russia collusion

MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1336 on: February 06, 2018, 08:37:16 AM »
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/just-when-it-seemed-the-gops-nunes-memo-couldnt-look-worse?hl=1&noRedirect=1

"According to Nunes, the FBI may have notified the court, but the information was in a footnote, so it doesn’t really count. In effect, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee has gone from accusing federal law enforcement of withholding pertinent information from a judge to arguing that the pertinent information wasn’t in a large enough font."

Seriously can't make this shit up! In related news the Dem memo is on the President's desk waiting for his approval. Anyone want to wager a guess what the odds of him shooting it down are, since he was so vindicated by the GOP memo, except that he wasn't.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1337 on: February 06, 2018, 09:00:27 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1338 on: February 06, 2018, 09:11:47 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.

As horrifying as all of this is, I have to admit it's fascinating to watch in real time the people who would have been Nixon's staunch defenders all through Watergate, dismissing the whole thing as smoke and mirrors. It's like a real-live historical documentary unfolding right before our eyes.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1339 on: February 06, 2018, 09:26:55 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.

As horrifying as all of this is, I have to admit it's fascinating to watch in real time the people who would have been Nixon's staunch defenders all through Watergate, dismissing the whole thing as smoke and mirrors. It's like a real-live historical documentary unfolding right before our eyes.

Indeed. I always thought this type of person was just a caricature. Are there really people who defend Nixon even 20 years later? Well, yes, and there will be people in 20 years who think Trump and friends were framed by the "deep state," damn the guilty pleas.

MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1340 on: February 06, 2018, 09:27:53 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.

As horrifying as all of this is, I have to admit it's fascinating to watch in real time the people who would have been Nixon's staunch defenders all through Watergate, dismissing the whole thing as smoke and mirrors. It's like a real-live historical documentary unfolding right before our eyes.

It is fascinating in a very comical and sad way. I do get a chuckle every someone provides the inevitable "what about Hillary-ism" while also using the phrase "smoke and mirrors."

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1341 on: February 06, 2018, 10:00:28 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1342 on: February 06, 2018, 10:14:40 AM »
Russia has been influencing foreign elections for many years now. To think that it "can't happen here" is pretty naive.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1343 on: February 06, 2018, 11:11:30 AM »
Russia has been influencing foreign elections for many years now. To think that it "can't happen here" is pretty naive.

Every U.S. intelligence agency agrees - they influenced the 2016 election.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1344 on: February 06, 2018, 11:30:20 AM »
Russia is very good at sowing dissent and causing citizens to loose faith in their government. That is their playbook they have been following. Now look at how divided we are, how tribal we are becoming, and the loss of faith in government. Not only did they influence the election but we are still falling for their game everyday. Looking at where Russia has done this in the past the end game does not look good for us.

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1345 on: February 08, 2018, 08:46:21 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.

The problem with that statement is:

CounterPunch (https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/08/the-russia-thing/)
The Intercept (https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia-story-falls-apart-is-skepticism-permissible-yet/)
Spiked Online (
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-russia-frenzy-gripping-washington/19546#.WnxvJ8tME0M)
Caitlyn Johnstone (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/russiagate-explained-721cb5843857)
Aaron Mate (https://youtu.be/9Ikf1uZli4g) (This one is fun because the Russa-gater seems to rage quit.)

All these are left leaning outlets that have no love for Trump, but agree there is no collusion.

Also the point out that you can't ask about Mueller's evidence without:
A. Getting a Gish gallop fallacy about all the evidence.
B. Being accused of being a Putin Puppet, Russian Bot, Troll Farm or Useful idiot.
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bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1346 on: February 08, 2018, 09:02:00 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.

The problem with that statement is:

CounterPunch (https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/08/the-russia-thing/)
The Intercept (https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia-story-falls-apart-is-skepticism-permissible-yet/)
Spiked Online (
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-russia-frenzy-gripping-washington/19546#.WnxvJ8tME0M)
Caitlyn Johnstone (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/russiagate-explained-721cb5843857)
Aaron Mate (https://youtu.be/9Ikf1uZli4g) (This one is fun because the Russa-gater seems to rage quit.)

All these are left leaning outlets that have no love for Trump, but agree there is no collusion.

Well, shit. Get rid of Mueller and dismiss the charges! Nothing to see here.

The point is that Sean Hannity is part of the right echo chamber. Your cherry-picked articles are not part of the left echo chamber (wtf is Caitlin Johnstone?). You need to mention Maddow and the Fire book and probably MSNBC for the same effect.

Quote
Also the point out that you can't ask about Mueller's evidence without:
A. Getting a Gish gallop fallacy about all the evidence.
B. Being accused of being a Putin Puppet, Russian Bot, Troll Farm or Useful idiot.

C. Wondering how you know about the Mueller team's evidence. Are you privy to the investigation?

Dabnasty

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1347 on: February 08, 2018, 09:19:41 AM »
And just for the record:


The problem with that statement is:

CounterPunch (https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/08/the-russia-thing/)
The Intercept (https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia-story-falls-apart-is-skepticism-permissible-yet/)
Spiked Online (
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-russia-frenzy-gripping-washington/19546#.WnxvJ8tME0M)
Caitlyn Johnstone (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/russiagate-explained-721cb5843857)
Aaron Mate (https://youtu.be/9Ikf1uZli4g) (This one is fun because the Russa-gater seems to rage quit.)

All these are left leaning outlets that have no love for Trump, but agree there is no collusion.


Only got through the first three and I absolutely agree that irresponsible media outlets are aggressively speculating with every little piece of new evidence, sometimes before it's even substantiated. This will inevitably lead to further distrust of the media. But they absolutely did NOT say there is no collusion. So to recap:

Counterpunch - You read between the lines to see what you wanted to see
Intercept - You read between the lines to see what you wanted to see
Spiked - Right biased source and the article was published 3/10/2017 and did not claim there was no collusion, only that the accusations were baseless. in early 2017. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/spiked-magazine/

I did not check your last 2 sources.

gentmach

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1348 on: February 08, 2018, 11:27:09 AM »
Take a moment to review the genesis of all this 'Russia' hysteria: The DNC claiming they were hacked, screaming about Russia, while not allowing the FBI to investigate, at the same time rigging the primaries for HRC, in cahoots with their MSM cheerleaders. These are known facts, not speculations.

https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/01/a-year-in-review-democracy-betrayed-by-democrats-not-russia/
Even Jill Stein points it out. Julian Assange has been poking holes in the establishment story this whole time. The Dems+MSM screaming not to release the memo, then claiming it was a dud, I mean c'mon. It reeks of swamp creature desperation.

Yes the election was rigged. Trump won anyway. Russiagate is a political smokeshow. Time to get on with life.

Here's a pro tip for life:

Stop watching Sean Hannity.

The problem with that statement is:

CounterPunch (https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/08/the-russia-thing/)
The Intercept (https://theintercept.com/2017/09/28/yet-another-major-russia-story-falls-apart-is-skepticism-permissible-yet/)
Spiked Online (
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-russia-frenzy-gripping-washington/19546#.WnxvJ8tME0M)
Caitlyn Johnstone (https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/russiagate-explained-721cb5843857)
Aaron Mate (https://youtu.be/9Ikf1uZli4g) (This one is fun because the Russa-gater seems to rage quit.)

All these are left leaning outlets that have no love for Trump, but agree there is no collusion.

Well, shit. Get rid of Mueller and dismiss the charges! Nothing to see here.

The point is that Sean Hannity is part of the right echo chamber. Your cherry-picked articles are not part of the left echo chamber (wtf is Caitlin Johnstone?). You need to mention Maddow and the Fire book and probably MSNBC for the same effect.

Quote
Also the point out that you can't ask about Mueller's evidence without:
A. Getting a Gish gallop fallacy about all the evidence.
B. Being accused of being a Putin Puppet, Russian Bot, Troll Farm or Useful idiot.

C. Wondering how you know about the Mueller team's evidence. Are you privy to the investigation?

I find it odd that liberals are agreeing with right wing people.

I'm not privy to the investigation. I just find the blind trust in our intelligence services disturbing.

As for the second guy, I was in a bit of a rush. So here are more articles.

https://theintercept.com/2017/03/16/key-democratic-officials-now-warning-base-not-to-expect-evidence-of-trumprussia-collusion/

https://theintercept.com/2017/02/23/the-increasingly-unhinged-russia-rhetoric-comes-from-a-long-standing-u-s-playbook/

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/08/dems-tactic-of-accusing-adversaries-of-kremlin-ties-and-russia-sympathies-has-long-history-in-us/

There is more but I ran out of time again.
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bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1349 on: February 08, 2018, 05:45:26 PM »
I find it odd that liberals are agreeing with right wing people.

It happens. I find it odd that conservatives are agreeing with left wing people.

Senators John McCain, Flake, and Graham, among others

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/boycott-the-gop/550907/

etc.

Quote
I'm not privy to the investigation. I just find the blind trust in our intelligence services disturbing.

Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russians before Trump took office. Michael Flynn wasn't some junior Trump staffer in Tulsa; he was the National Security Advisor.

Papadopoulos tried to arrange a meeting between Trump, the then Republican nominee, and Putin, the Russian dictator President. He emailed Manafort and Lewandowski and attended a meeting with Trump where he mentioned his connections and attempts. He also pled guilty to lying to the FBI about meetings with Russian officials.

Given the above, a far more relevant question is, why do Trumpians have such blind faith that there aren't more skeletons in the closet?