Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 192432 times)

Kris

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1250 on: January 23, 2018, 01:38:58 PM »
wow, does anyone believe the trump/Russia fabrication any more? closing in on 2 years ... nothing? If yes, it's an act of faith and hope, one small step removed from religion.

You just love popping in here and throwing a troll-grenade, don't you acroy?
Four indictments and a plea-bargain at last count, and the investigation is only 7 months old.  For reference special investigations such as this one last on average about 2 years.  Only Watergate ended in under a year with Nixon's "Saturday Night Massacre"

Didn't you know - facts don't matter anymore.  You get to say literally whatever you want and people have to believe you.  It's the internet, after all.

Truth. Let’s face it, in this climate any decent troll should be able to make a good living at it, like Alex Jones. Anyone not monetizing it is either lazy or just not very good at it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1251 on: January 23, 2018, 01:44:13 PM »
wow, does anyone believe the trump/Russia fabrication any more? closing in on 2 years ... nothing? If yes, it's an act of faith and hope, one small step removed from religion.

You just love popping in here and throwing a troll-grenade, don't you acroy?
Four indictments and a plea-bargain at last count, and the investigation is only 7 months old.  For reference special investigations such as this one last on average about 2 years.  Only Watergate ended in under a year with Nixon's "Saturday Night Massacre"

Didn't you know - facts don't matter anymore.  You get to say literally whatever you want and people have to believe you.  It's the internet, after all.

Truth. Let’s face it, in this climate any decent troll should be able to make a good living at it, like Alex Jones. Anyone not monetizing it is either lazy or just not very good at it.

How do we know acroy hasn't found his FIRE job AS ALEX JONES?
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GuitarStv

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1252 on: January 23, 2018, 01:45:00 PM »
wow, does anyone believe the trump/Russia fabrication any more? closing in on 2 years ... nothing? If yes, it's an act of faith and hope, one small step removed from religion.

You just love popping in here and throwing a troll-grenade, don't you acroy?
Four indictments and a plea-bargain at last count, and the investigation is only 7 months old.  For reference special investigations such as this one last on average about 2 years.  Only Watergate ended in under a year with Nixon's "Saturday Night Massacre"

Didn't you know - facts don't matter anymore.  You get to say literally whatever you want and people have to believe you.  It's the internet, after all.

Truth. Let’s face it, in this climate any decent troll should be able to make a good living at it, like Alex Jones. Anyone not monetizing it is either lazy or just not very good at it.

How do we know acroy hasn't found his FIRE job AS ALEX JONES?

I don't think his posts have enough exclamation points.
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Samuel

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1253 on: January 23, 2018, 02:01:33 PM »
Four indictments and a plea-bargain at last count, and the investigation is only 7 months old.  For reference special investigations such as this one last on average about 2 years.  Only Watergate ended in under a year with Nixon's "Saturday Night Massacre"

2 guilty pleas, actually. Flynn and Papadopoulos.

And the only reason to settle those cases now versus at the end of the investigation is because they're actively cooperating and providing valuable information on those higher up in the campaign leadership.

But yeah, nothing to see here.

former player

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1254 on: January 23, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
https://www.axios.com/scoop-sessions-fbi-trump-christopher-wray-877adb3e-5f8d-44a1-8a2f-d4f0894ca6a7.html

Mr. Mueller adds Jeff Sessions to his interview list.

There's really no one left except Kushner, Don Jr., Pence, and DJT.
Those four are certainly the biggest fish in the pond, but there's also Conway, Hicks, Eric & Ivanka Trump.  All were involved in the 2016 campaign and to my knowledge haven't been interviewed as of yet.  Each could provide useful statements about various meetings (both what was said and corroborating who was there).
Then there's the re-interviews, anytime Mueller finds two statements that don't line up.

For better or worse this thing is going to drag on for many months longer.

Sorry...I meant of the possible people up the chain potentially to be charged/indicted.  Sessions marks the first cabinet member interviewed but I'm not sure he's smart enough to participate in collusion/obstruction of justice.  He was likely interviewed because of all of his contacts with Russians during the campaign and Mueller probably wants to know who he reported up to in the Trump campaign.

There's no logical explanation that Trump and/or Pence didn't know about the Don Jr. meeting, didn't know about the Papadopolous "leak," didn't know about Manafort, etc. etc.
She's been under the radar so far, but does anyone seriously believe that Ivanka didn't know what her father, brother and husband were up to?  She's been working in the business for years, including working on the dodgy "Iranian Republican Guard money" deal in Azerbaijan, and she was fully involved in the campaign.   Her defence of ignorance would have to rely on the notion that she is dumb as a tub of bricks and twice as oblivious.  Which may be true, of course, but probably wouldn't chime with her own view of herself.
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bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1255 on: January 23, 2018, 02:28:47 PM »
wow, does anyone believe the trump/Russia fabrication any more? closing in on 2 years ... nothing? If yes, it's an act of faith and hope, one small step removed from religion.

Pro tip: Instead of parroting echo-chamber right-wing talking points, do some (primary source) research beforehand.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 02:32:01 PM by bacchi »

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1256 on: January 23, 2018, 02:42:46 PM »
wow, does anyone believe the trump/Russia fabrication any more? closing in on 2 years ... nothing? If yes, it's an act of faith and hope, one small step removed from religion.

Pro tip: Instead of parroting echo-chamber right-wing talking points, do some (primary source) research beforehand.
Nah - acroy has a history of tossing incendiary comments into a thread and then leaving, only to do it again months later. My guess is he's off chuckling to himself.  Scan his comments earlier in this thread and on other "off-topic" threads.
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Dabnasty

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1257 on: January 23, 2018, 02:44:57 PM »
wow, does anyone believe the trump/Russia fabrication any more? closing in on 2 years ... nothing? If yes, it's an act of faith and hope, one small step removed from religion.

Pro tip: Instead of parroting echo-chamber right-wing talking points, do some (primary source) research beforehand.

Perhaps 2 years ago was when the plot to collude began? Did he mean closing in on 2 years of getting away with it? But seriously, let's just stop responding to acroy.

On the other hand he does provide some insight as to where the bat shit crazy conspiracy theories come from.

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1258 on: January 23, 2018, 02:54:54 PM »
You're both right. Mea culpa. Don't respond to trolls.


nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1259 on: January 23, 2018, 02:54:55 PM »
wow, does anyone believe the trump/Russia fabrication any more? closing in on 2 years ... nothing? If yes, it's an act of faith and hope, one small step removed from religion.

Pro tip: Instead of parroting echo-chamber right-wing talking points, do some (primary source) research beforehand.

Perhaps 2 years ago was when the plot to collude began? Did he mean closing in on 2 years of getting away with it?
The "closing in on 2 years" statement had me scratching my head, too... Mueller's investigation is less than 8 months old.  This thread is just over 1 year.  Two years ago was before Flynn (plea-bargain), before the now infamous meeting in Trump Tower, before the hacking of the DNC.

I'll withhold final judgement on the Trump/Russia issue until Mueller finishes his investigation, but many of the events in question are much more recent than 2 years.
Bizarre...
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1260 on: January 23, 2018, 04:20:20 PM »
Acroy does have one valid point, I think, which is that collusion is hard to prosecute.  Proving it is easy.  Doing anything about it, when it's the President, is basically impossible.

I suspect that Mueller will present an ironclad case, and it still won't matter.  My prediction is that Trump personally directed his campaign staff to coordinate with Russia to undermine US foreign policy in exchange for their help in swaying the election, and that this will be backed up by multiple witnesses and a trove of corroborating documents.  Trump will deny it, of course, but the standards for criminal conviction will be easily surpassed.  A crime was clearly committed, he had motive, opportunity, and means, and everyone interviewed will agree it was Trump as the ringleader of his campaign's misdeeds. 

And after the nation's highest law enforcement agency presents absolute proof of multiple crimes, nothing will happen.  Trump's comment about shooting someone in Times Square is ringing more and more true.  He'll go to McConnell and Ryan and privately say "Yes, I deliberately broke six different laws in this election, but you need me and we all know I'm untouchable,  so get down on your knees and suck it."  And they will.  They'll gladly keep a known traitor as President, to support a political agenda that they know most the country hates.

And without Congress to take action, the President is basically immune.  He could literally murder his family in the white house tonight and stay President.  He could send a tweet that reads "I colluded with Russia" and stay President.  He could go on 60 minutes and admit to obstruction of justice, and stay President (wait, that last one already happened, bad example?).

America is a vast nation full of natural resources and profitable businesses and hard working citizens.  Our greatness does not lay in Washington DC, but across our lands.  At the moment, the reigns of power have been seized by small cadre of profiteering zealots but this is a temporary situation.  Elections will eventually set us on the right path again, or they won't and America will fall.  You can't do much about it either way, as we are all sort of along for the ride in this great experiment.  So vote your conscience, as often as possible, and try to accept that sometimes the system will fail.  Sometimes I think that in cases where our electoral system is so easily subverted, that's a sign of weakness in our system and maybe it should fail.  If Russia can so easily tear America apart, then does America really deserve to lead the world anymore?

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1261 on: January 23, 2018, 05:51:47 PM »
I’ll quibble with one point, Sol, and that’s the idea that a President is impervious to criminal prosecution while in office.  The constitution prevents this, although congress - if its doing its job - would initiate impeachment proceedings. 

Unless I’m very wrong Mueller could (hypothetically) bring federal charges against DJT.

I will say that I’m not as convinced that its risen to that point...  we shall see..
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DavidAnnArbor

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1262 on: January 23, 2018, 08:00:55 PM »
The federal courts and the Democrats in the Senate have been able to prevent some bad things from happening. The media have been able to highlight egregious Republican efforts at dismantling health care, and throwing out DACA residents. So I don't think our democracy will fail, because we have enough institutions to prevent that, for the moment.

Could a really crazy beefed up Patriot Act become enacted by Congress if we had another terrorist attack, resulting in the suspension of press freedoms?
If these institutions, like the courts, the press, and the minority party are undermined, then yes American democracy would fail.

JLee

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1263 on: January 23, 2018, 08:23:36 PM »
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/biden-confirms-reports-mcconnell-blocked-obama-warning-americans-russian-election-interference/

Quote
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell rejected the Obama administration’s efforts to warn the public about Russian interference in the 2016 presidential campaign, former vice president Joe Biden said Tuesday.

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1264 on: January 23, 2018, 10:05:41 PM »
Whoa. Rick Gates may have flipped.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/23/politics/rick-gates-new-attorney-mueller-russia-investigation/index.html

Mueller is gathering quite a stable. Who's the big whale? And will Trump try to kill the investigation before the whale is harpooned?

Aelias

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1265 on: January 24, 2018, 12:58:34 PM »
responding to @sol and @nereo, there's an open debate among legal scholars about whether a sitting president can be indicted by a special prosecutor.  There was a memo drafted by Ken Starr and staff concluding that Bill Clinton could be indicted by a special prosecutor.  But since that time, the rules that govern special prosecutors have changed. The regulations governing Mueller mandate that he “comply with the rules, regulations, procedures, practices and policies of the Department of Justice.” They permit removal of the special counsel for “good cause, including violation of Departmental policies.”

As Clinton was about to leave office, his Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel ruled that the president could not be indicted, and the OLC’s stated function is “to provide controlling advice to Executive Branch officials on questions of law.”

On the other side, is the less technically sophisticated but more inherently compelling "No one is above the law" argument.

My best guess is that if Mueller can implicate Trump, he may name him as an unindicted coconspirator a la Leon Jaworski in Watergate.  But there's also debate over whether that would be permissible under current DOJ rules.  It depends on the strength of the evidence.

Either way, Trump's not getting removed from office except by impeachment, which is a political process and not a legal one.  And, deep down, I'm worried that no matter how compelling the evidence is, nothing matters enough to the Republicans to actually remove him.

Sigh.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1266 on: January 24, 2018, 01:40:22 PM »
thanks for the input Aelias.
I've read many of the arguments for and against prosecuting a sitting president, and to be clear I'm not discussing basic obstruction charges or collusion (which isn't an actual federal crime).  Those do seem very unlikely to result in any criminal prosecution, in part because Clinton already set the precedent.  What I was more reacting to is the idea that a sitting president could never be criminally prosecuted for any reason, such as Sol's murder analogy.  Here I believe constitutional law is much more clear.  Speaking in strict hypotheticals - Mueller could arrest Trump if there was a severe enough crime involved (like murder).
But - in a way Sol's critique stands, because it would fall to the DOJ to choose whether or not to prosecute, and its unlikely Mueller would even get the green light to put DJT into handcuffs.

Ironically, Congress does not a federal crime to have occured in order to impeach:  "The President... shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, treason, bribery and high crimes and Misdemeanors"
I again share Sol's view taht this current congress won't start impeachment proceedings unless its clear that its necessary and undeniable to preserve their place in congress.
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Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1267 on: January 24, 2018, 06:27:02 PM »
See also: should really understand the legal meaning of obstruction.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/370620-trump-fighting-back-against-russia-probe-is-not-obstruction

The underpinnings here relating to complete disregard for how the laws apply to him. They are simply an obstacle to overcome rather than something to be respected. Ugh.
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Glenstache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1268 on: January 24, 2018, 06:31:34 PM »
Of course Russia was trying to help Trump win. That was plainly obvious to anyone paying attention before the election. I've yet to see any concrete evidence that Russia actually helped *rig* the election (in the sense of hacking electronic voting machines to change vote counts) but I wouldn't put it past them
Why rig the voting machines when you can get Americans to do something stupid on their own through disinformation? See also, piles of russian bots, memes, twitter feeds, etc.

But on the topic of voting machines, it was probably not all that effective, but not for lack of trying:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/us/politics/russia-election-hacking.html
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1269 on: January 24, 2018, 06:35:45 PM »
Of course Russia was trying to help Trump win. That was plainly obvious to anyone paying attention before the election. I've yet to see any concrete evidence that Russia actually helped *rig* the election (in the sense of hacking electronic voting machines to change vote counts) but I wouldn't put it past them

Does it need to be altering vote totals to be illegal?

For example, there are laws against foreign countries buying traditional advertising supporting or attacking candidates.  Russia can't take out billboards for Trump, or buy commercials on prime time tv.  But Russia can apparently buy advertising on facebook and twitter, which is just as effective as print or broadcast media, and they can do so covertly (by using front companies to make the purchases) and they can blatantly lie while doing so (since libel laws apparently don't apply to places like facebook where everything is a lie anyway). 

If Russia had done on tv/radio/print what they did on facebook/twitter, that would absolutely be a crime.  The problem in this case is that Trump seems to have realized that the laws hadn't yet caught up with the realities of modern digital advertising, and encouraged Russia to flaunt those rules by skirting the letter of the law.

Does it count as "collusion" if a presidential candidate asks for and then receives the covert help of a foreign government to sway a US election using means that technically are not yet illegal, because the technology is evolving quickly?  It it illegal to promise a foreign government special treatment, if they successfully help you win your election?  What if you do that with a foreign national with close family ties to a foreign leader, but who is not publicly employed by foreign government?  What if you do it with a US citizen who IS publicly employed by a foreign power?  Because Trump appears to have done all of those things, and I'm pretty sure Mueller is going to think at least one of those is a crime.

But like I said, it won't matter.  We've already established that Trump gets to break the law, for reasons of political expediency.  For example, we have laws against nepotism, which he has flagrantly flaunted in the white house.  We have laws about emoluments and bribery of public officials, which he has flagrantly flaunted with his hotels and the Trump Foundation.  We have laws against firing civil servants for political reasons, which he has flagrantly flaunted with Comey and then Wray.  There's a strong case to be made that he's the most obviously corrupt President in US history, and that's saying something because that's a crowded space to play in.

JLee

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1270 on: January 24, 2018, 07:29:36 PM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/23/democrats-warn-russia-trying-to-influence-mueller-investigation.html

Quote
California Democrats Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Rep. Adam Schiff released a letter to the CEOs of Twitter and Facebook warning of possible Russian influence on the special counsel's investigation.
A website monitoring Russia-linked Twitter accounts found that their use of #releasethememo increased nearly 300,000 percent in just a few days.
The politicians urged the CEOs to conduct their own examination and submit their findings to Congress.

Nope, nothing to see here! Nothing at all!

JLee

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1271 on: January 25, 2018, 06:50:12 PM »
https://www.volkskrant.nl/media/dutch-agencies-provide-crucial-intel-about-russia-s-interference-in-us-elections~a4561913/

Quote
Hackers from the Dutch intelligence service AIVD have provided the FBI with crucial information about Russian interference with the American elections. For years, AIVD had access to the infamous Russian hacker group Cozy Bear. That's what de Volkskrant and Nieuwsuur have uncovered in their investigation.

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1272 on: January 25, 2018, 06:53:57 PM »
The NY Times is reporting that Trump fired Mueller back in June, then had to withdraw it when white house counsel threatened to resign.

In effect, the white house counsel seems to have saved the Trump presidency, by avoiding the Saturday night massacre scenario.  Looks like clear intent to obstruct justice, to me.

Is anyone shocked?  What would that even take, anymore?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 07:09:03 PM by sol »

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1273 on: January 26, 2018, 06:46:09 AM »
A recession?
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Aelias

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1274 on: January 26, 2018, 07:06:22 AM »
A recession?

Bingo.  My husband and I have discussed this at length. For there to be a credible threat to remove Trump from office, Republicans (House Republicans particularly) have to turn on him. They won't do that as long as the economy is strong, particularly the stock market.  And since the tax bill has dumped an unimaginable pile of money on corporations, I think they pushed out the inevitable downturn at least a year.

I take a little comfort in watching Trump crow about the Dow, because I know it can't last.  Live by the Dow, die by the Dow.

Just Joe

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1275 on: January 26, 2018, 07:24:10 AM »
I was left wondering how long 'til Melania goes absent. She quit the Davos trip and went to FL. I wonder how tied up he has her with the pre-nup.

He has now cheated on each of his wives. I can't see how the evangelical conservatives can wrap their belief system around their President's actions and support him.   

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1276 on: January 26, 2018, 07:29:29 AM »
A recession?
...
I take a little comfort in watching Trump crow about the Dow, because I know it can't last.  Live by the Dow, die by the Dow.

I'm not even sure this will work to trip up teflon Don.  Remember just over a year ago the unemployment numbers were 'fake' and 'one of the bigest hoaxes' and "total fiction'- Candidate Trump frequently talked about the 'real unemployment' number being over 20%.  Several times he indicated unemployment was probably over 40%. Now president Trump crows about the 'historically low' rate of 4.x% every chance he gets. 

According to Candidate Trump, under Obama our economy was in shambles.  President Trump now tweets weekly about record highs for the Dow.  Oddly, he never credited Obama and the dozens of market highs under his watch (which started in 2013 and continued nearly non-stop for the last three years of his presidency)

So Trump called every good economic indicator under Obama fake and fraud, but now touts those same numbers as evidence of being the greatest president in modern history. What will happen when we hit an inevitable downturn? Something tells me he'll 1) blame democrats ("if the loser democrats weren't blocking our way our economy would be so great!", 2) call the numbers 'fake' again ("a bunch of liberal, unelected losers want our economy to fail and are publishing fake numbers about unemployment and jobs.  Get a life!!") and 3) basically tell everyone (again) that he alone can fix it.
His base will continue to lap it up. The GOP in congress will spout the talking points handed down to them, no matter how absurd - because the only alternative would be ceding control to the Dems.
 
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1277 on: January 26, 2018, 07:33:58 AM »
I think we are going to see an indictment of DJT but no trial until he leaves office.  Then the "deal" will be dismissal of the charges with prejudice in exchange for his resignation.

MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1278 on: January 26, 2018, 07:37:22 AM »
A recession?

Nahh, they will just blame it on the Dems or claim fake news and say the economy is doing well. Pretty much SOP by now. Maybe even blame it on the border wall not getting funded/built or Clinton's emails.

Aelias

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1279 on: January 26, 2018, 07:37:41 AM »
https://www.volkskrant.nl/media/dutch-agencies-provide-crucial-intel-about-russia-s-interference-in-us-elections~a4561913/

Quote
Hackers from the Dutch intelligence service AIVD have provided the FBI with crucial information about Russian interference with the American elections. For years, AIVD had access to the infamous Russian hacker group Cozy Bear. That's what de Volkskrant and Nieuwsuur have uncovered in their investigation.

Wow.  This is not getting enough attention. 

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1280 on: January 26, 2018, 07:39:25 AM »

He has now cheated on each of his wives. I can't see how the evangelical conservatives can wrap their belief system around their President's actions and support him.
The evangelical conservatives got into bed with the GOP over gay marriage and the 'defense of marriage act' (among others), as well as with anti-abortion legislation. 

Now they are proverbially married to supporting the GOP, 'for better or worse.'  It doesn't matter how flawed the candidate is, because the alternative is to either butt out of politics altogether or support a democrat.  They won't butt out of politics because its become an enormous cash-cow for both them and the GOP; nothing unzips evangelical's pocketbooks faster than a good sermon about combating the evil of homosexuality or those poor unbaptized, unborn souls. Likewise they won't support even centrist Dem candidates because losing the war is worse than supporting a seemingly endless stream of immoral politicians.
The justify their support of DJT by saying that "only God can judge" and that their 'true support is with the bible' - basically the ends justify the means approach.

Ironically, what most have forgotten is that the entire concept of Seperation of Church & State was brought about by our founders NOT to keep the religion out of the state, but to keep the state out of religion. You can't force your religion into politics without politics infiltrating your religion.
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Aelias

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1281 on: January 26, 2018, 07:42:02 AM »
A recession?
...
I take a little comfort in watching Trump crow about the Dow, because I know it can't last.  Live by the Dow, die by the Dow.

. . .

So Trump called every good economic indicator under Obama fake and fraud, but now touts those same numbers as evidence of being the greatest president in modern history. What will happen when we hit an inevitable downturn? Something tells me he'll 1) blame democrats ("if the loser democrats weren't blocking our way our economy would be so great!", 2) call the numbers 'fake' again ("a bunch of liberal, unelected losers want our economy to fail and are publishing fake numbers about unemployment and jobs.  Get a life!!") and 3) basically tell everyone (again) that he alone can fix it.
His base will continue to lap it up. The GOP in congress will spout the talking points handed down to them, no matter how absurd - because the only alternative would be ceding control to the Dems.

Ugh. You're right, of course. This is why, even as multiple bombshell reports are dropping daily, I'm struggling with the growing sense that nothing matters anymore.


wenchsenior

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1282 on: January 26, 2018, 07:57:38 AM »
The NY Times is reporting that Trump fired Mueller back in June, then had to withdraw it when white house counsel threatened to resign.

In effect, the white house counsel seems to have saved the Trump presidency, by avoiding the Saturday night massacre scenario.  Looks like clear intent to obstruct justice, to me.

Is anyone shocked?  What would that even take, anymore?

I've always maintained that nothing about the Russia investigation itself would lead to anything where Trump could really be legally nailed.  Only his efforts to stop said investigation would be likely to do so. 

As to what it would take to remove him from office? The Dems taking the House and filibuster proof majority in the Senate, which is unlikely to happen. So Trump will serve out his term, and his base will continue to believe none of these reports.  Given the perversity of human nature, I wouldn't be surprised to see Trump's approval ratings (which have been ticking up slightly in recent weeks) rise a bit the worse things get for him, as hold-their-nose GOP voters start to rally back to him as he gets in more trouble.

I really see no bottom to our politics going forward, without extensive changes to gerrymandering and campaign finance. 


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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1283 on: January 26, 2018, 08:06:48 AM »
Quote
I've always maintained that nothing about the Russia investigation itself would lead to anything where Trump could really be legally nailed.  Only his efforts to stop said investigation would be likely to do so. 

"The coverup is worse than the crime". 
hard to judge if this is the case here until all the facts are out, but it certainly looks like the WH's actions have made this whole situation worse. It's possible that the initial actions of the Trump campaign mostly fell into the "politically stupid but not worthy of criminal prosecution" - but the actions to cover up those actions are looking quite bad.

Back in June both DJT and Conway are on the record (on tape) saying that conversations about firing Mueller "never came up" and they were absolutely not considering doing it. If this latest report is true its another lie on top of an attempt to stop an investigation from finding... what exactly?
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1284 on: January 26, 2018, 08:17:05 AM »
Back in June both DJT and Conway are on the record (on tape) saying that conversations about firing Mueller "never came up" and they were absolutely not considering doing it. If this latest report is true its another lie

Wait wait wait.  You mean Donald Trump is a liar?

Well, this just upsets my whole world view.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 09:42:46 AM by sol »

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1285 on: January 26, 2018, 08:46:26 AM »
Quote
Back in June both DJT and Conway are on the record (on tape) saying that conversations about firing Mueller "never came up" and they were absolutely not considering doing it. If this latest report is true its another lie

Wait wait wait.  You mean Donald Trump is a liar?

Well, this just upsets my whole world view.
Shocking, i know.  Turns out the guy who led the birther movement, who said Hillary Clinton started it, who said real unemployment might be over 40%, who claims his won the popular vote if you deduct 3-5 million illegal votes, who claims to have had the largest inaugeration crowd, 'period', who promised to release his tax returns once a 'routine audit' was completed, who said his 58 story Trump Tower was actually 68 stories, who's committed adultery on three different women, who got five medical deferments from the draft for an issue that 'went away', who... (crap this would take too long)...  might not always tell the truth.
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MasterStache

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1286 on: January 26, 2018, 09:23:21 AM »
It isn't just Trump who is trying to obstruct. This guy is a real POS as well.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ethics-complaint-alleges-rep-devin-120823661.html


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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1287 on: January 26, 2018, 09:31:17 AM »
Nunes has installed himself as the WH's personal congressional firewall. He's like Conway or S. Sanders but with the advantage that he controls and actual committee in the US House. He basically parrots whatever talking points the WH gives out
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Just Joe

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1288 on: January 26, 2018, 12:13:01 PM »

He has now cheated on each of his wives. I can't see how the evangelical conservatives can wrap their belief system around their President's actions and support him.
The evangelical conservatives got into bed with the GOP over gay marriage and the 'defense of marriage act' (among others), as well as with anti-abortion legislation. 

Now they are proverbially married to supporting the GOP, 'for better or worse.'  It doesn't matter how flawed the candidate is, because the alternative is to either butt out of politics altogether or support a democrat.  They won't butt out of politics because its become an enormous cash-cow for both them and the GOP; nothing unzips evangelical's pocketbooks faster than a good sermon about combating the evil of homosexuality or those poor unbaptized, unborn souls. Likewise they won't support even centrist Dem candidates because losing the war is worse than supporting a seemingly endless stream of immoral politicians.
The justify their support of DJT by saying that "only God can judge" and that their 'true support is with the bible' - basically the ends justify the means approach.

Ironically, what most have forgotten is that the entire concept of Seperation of Church & State was brought about by our founders NOT to keep the religion out of the state, but to keep the state out of religion. You can't force your religion into politics without politics infiltrating your religion.

"Only God can judge" until one of their wedge issues pops up and then we're off to the judgement races.... ;)

What we need for added entertainment value is for the next bombshell to reveal that DJT is actively gay or molested his daughters. I wonder if even THAT would knock his approval numbers down any?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 12:16:52 PM by Just Joe »

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1289 on: January 26, 2018, 12:36:53 PM »

He has now cheated on each of his wives. I can't see how the evangelical conservatives can wrap their belief system around their President's actions and support him.
The evangelical conservatives got into bed with the GOP over gay marriage and the 'defense of marriage act' (among others), as well as with anti-abortion legislation. 

Now they are proverbially married to supporting the GOP, 'for better or worse.'  It doesn't matter how flawed the candidate is, because the alternative is to either butt out of politics altogether or support a democrat.  They won't butt out of politics because its become an enormous cash-cow for both them and the GOP; nothing unzips evangelical's pocketbooks faster than a good sermon about combating the evil of homosexuality or those poor unbaptized, unborn souls. Likewise they won't support even centrist Dem candidates because losing the war is worse than supporting a seemingly endless stream of immoral politicians.
The justify their support of DJT by saying that "only God can judge" and that their 'true support is with the bible' - basically the ends justify the means approach.

Ironically, what most have forgotten is that the entire concept of Seperation of Church & State was brought about by our founders NOT to keep the religion out of the state, but to keep the state out of religion. You can't force your religion into politics without politics infiltrating your religion.

"Only God can judge" until one of their wedge issues pops up and then we're off to the judgement races.... ;)

What we need for added entertainment value is for the next bombshell to reveal that DJT is actively gay or molested his daughters. I wonder if even THAT would knock his approval numbers down any?
There's the old saying about a "dead girl or a live boy" ending any politician's career - however for DJT we knew long before the campaign he had tabloid-trysts, numerous apperances on Howard Stern well documented affairs, plus those comments to Hollywood Access. All of that was out in the open months and years before the election. Plenty of stuff worse than that has been alleged (the Steele dossier). So I'm not convinced that a public sex-tape would even move the needle against him.  After all, everyone pretty much knew he was a hedonistic, womanizing twerp back in the 90s.

"Only god can judge" - this is their defense for supporting morally flawed candidates. It's never stopped them from judging their opponents.  Hillary's crooked, Bill's a womanizer, Obama's a closet-Muslim, Daniels is a whore, Frankin disrespected women ... but as good christians we must forgive DJT's treatment of women, judge-not former Judge Roy Moore, pray Limbaugh can beat his addiction, and by golly Meehan had love and good intentions in his heart, nothing else. Hypocrisy runs deep whenever you mix religion with politics.
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Aelias

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1290 on: February 02, 2018, 11:08:02 AM »
OMGGGGGG  IT"S TEH MEMO!!!!!

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180129/106822/HMTG-115-IG00-20180129-SD001.pdf

This? This is it?  This was their Hail Mary to take down the Russia Investigation and vindicate Trump?  This was worth publically taking on the intelligence community?

Lol.  They're screwed.

Barbaebigode

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1291 on: February 02, 2018, 11:31:21 AM »
OMGGGGGG  IT"S TEH MEMO!!!!!

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180129/106822/HMTG-115-IG00-20180129-SD001.pdf

This? This is it?  This was their Hail Mary to take down the Russia Investigation and vindicate Trump?  This was worth publically taking on the intelligence community?

Lol.  They're screwed.

Yeah, it shows that Rodstein gave credit to a guy that might be biased in his work. Now Trump has a flimsy excuse to fire him and try to burn the republic.

fattest_foot

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1292 on: February 02, 2018, 11:34:45 AM »
OMGGGGGG  IT"S TEH MEMO!!!!!

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180129/106822/HMTG-115-IG00-20180129-SD001.pdf

This? This is it?  This was their Hail Mary to take down the Russia Investigation and vindicate Trump?  This was worth publically taking on the intelligence community?

Lol.  They're screwed.

Not sure how you can take this stance.

Ignoring partisanship completely, you don't think it's concerning that the FBI, DOJ, and DNC would go through the steps they took (illegally, mind you) to derail the incoming and then sitting President?

It's a conspiracy theory proven true about how far the intelligence community will abuse their power. And if they will do it to the President, what do you think they care about your individual rights as a citizen?

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1293 on: February 02, 2018, 11:48:30 AM »
It's a conspiracy theory proven true about how far the intelligence community will abuse their power. And if they will do it to the President, what do you think they care about your individual rights as a citizen?

It's a memo written by a GOP hack that's sleeping with the WH. How are the allegations proven true?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1294 on: February 02, 2018, 11:50:47 AM »
OMGGGGGG  IT"S TEH MEMO!!!!!

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180129/106822/HMTG-115-IG00-20180129-SD001.pdf

This? This is it?  This was their Hail Mary to take down the Russia Investigation and vindicate Trump?  This was worth publically taking on the intelligence community?

Lol.  They're screwed.

Not sure how you can take this stance.

Ignoring partisanship completely, you don't think it's concerning that the FBI, DOJ, and DNC would go through the steps they took (illegally, mind you) to derail the incoming and then sitting President?

It's a conspiracy theory proven true about how far the intelligence community will abuse their power. And if they will do it to the President, what do you think they care about your individual rights as a citizen?

IMHO, this is not a conspiracy theory proven true. It is also worth noting that even if the FBI were conspiring, it does not follow that Trump campaign was not colluding, or willfully benefiting from Russian interference. It is possible that Steele was adamant about Trump not being elected because his research indicated that Trump was compromised. The "why" is clearly omitted in so many places in this memo that it is hard to read as anything but chaff.
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1295 on: February 02, 2018, 11:51:23 AM »

Ignoring partisanship completely, you don't think it's concerning that the FBI, DOJ, and DNC would go through the steps they took (illegally, mind you) to derail the incoming and then sitting President?

It's a conspiracy theory proven true about how far the intelligence community will abuse their power. And if they will do it to the President, what do you think they care about your individual rights as a citizen?
Could you be more specific here?  What illegal steps did the intelligence agencies take to derail DJT?

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DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1296 on: February 02, 2018, 11:56:11 AM »
OMGGGGGG  IT"S TEH MEMO!!!!!

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180129/106822/HMTG-115-IG00-20180129-SD001.pdf

This? This is it?  This was their Hail Mary to take down the Russia Investigation and vindicate Trump?  This was worth publically taking on the intelligence community?

Lol.  They're screwed.

Not sure how you can take this stance.

Ignoring partisanship completely, you don't think it's concerning that the FBI, DOJ, and DNC would go through the steps they took (illegally, mind you) to derail the incoming and then sitting President?

It's a conspiracy theory proven true about how far the intelligence community will abuse their power. And if they will do it to the President, what do you think they care about your individual rights as a citizen?

LOL.  Keep drinking the Kool Aid.

This is a cherry-picked memo that proves nothing.

1) We know the dossier did not serve as the basis for the FISA warrant.  It was corroborating evidence that the FBI ALREADY HAD - that's it.
2) The Steele dossier was originally funded back in 2015 by Paul Singer...a REPUBLICAN donor.
3) Carter Page was under surveillance as far back as 2013 - he had proven ties to Russia back then.

Let me get this straight...the conspiracy is that the FBI and DOJ conspired to make sure the election of Donald Trump did not happen...yet they publicly acknowledged the re-investigation into Clinton's email (which resulted in nothing) just days before the election BUT kept secret all of the ongoing surveillance and investigation into Trump's campaign?

Just...seriously...say out loud your conspiracy.
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Aelias

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1297 on: February 02, 2018, 12:32:09 PM »
OMGGGGGG  IT"S TEH MEMO!!!!!

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180129/106822/HMTG-115-IG00-20180129-SD001.pdf

This? This is it?  This was their Hail Mary to take down the Russia Investigation and vindicate Trump?  This was worth publically taking on the intelligence community?

Lol.  They're screwed.

Not sure how you can take this stance.

Ignoring partisanship completely, you don't think it's concerning that the FBI, DOJ, and DNC would go through the steps they took (illegally, mind you) to derail the incoming and then sitting President?

It's a conspiracy theory proven true about how far the intelligence community will abuse their power. And if they will do it to the President, what do you think they care about your individual rights as a citizen?

There are many reason to be skeptical about this memo, but here's one I'm not seeing discussed all that much.

There is a HIGH standard for proving to a FISA Court that an American citizen should be placed under surveillance as part of a counterintelligence investigation.  The idea is that the Court places a check on the power of the government to surveil its own citizens.  This is necessary and a very important check on the power of the government's surveillance apparatus.

As is discussed in the Memo, FISA warrants have to be renewed by the FISA Court every 90 days.  These warrants are approved if and only if there is a demonstration that the surveillance is producing valuable intelligence. The warrant on Page renewed 3 times after the initial warrant was granted.

If they sought the first warrant on October 21, 2016, the subsequent warrants would have been sought on January 19, April 19, and July 18, 2017.  Think about what happened by July 18, 2017.  BuzzFeed published the Dossier back in January 2017.  By July, the House and Senate Intel Committees were trying to get Glenn Simpson to testify.  By that point, this was pretty much all out in the open.  The fact that the FISA Court approved the initial warrant and three subsequent renewals, while there was already public reporting questioning the origins and veracity of Dossier, suggests to me that there was sufficient other evidence there to warrant surveillance.

I had actually expected that the memo would contain allegations against the FISA Court as well.  Or evidence that the Court had asked about the origins of the dossier, and the DOL had lied.  Or something to that effect.  Because that would suggest that the Court considered that information relevant but the information was hidden.  But the Memo contains no allegations against the Court.

So, no, I don't find these allegations of bias compelling.

Just Joe

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1298 on: February 02, 2018, 01:09:24 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_GPS#Trump_dossier_and_Christopher_Steele

In September 2015, Fusion GPS was hired by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative political website, to do opposition research on Trump and other Republican presidential candidates. In spring 2016 when Trump had emerged as the probable Republican candidate, the Free Beacon stopped funding investigation into Trump.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Free_Beacon

From October 2015 to May 2016, the Washington Free Beacon hired Fusion GPS to conduct opposition research on "multiple candidates" during the 2016 presidential election, including Donald Trump. The Free Beacon stopped funding this research when Donald Trump had clinched the Republican nomination. Fusion GPS would later hire former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele and produce a dossier alleging links between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. Paul Singer, a billionaire and hedge fund manager, who is a major donor to the Free Beacon, said he was unaware of this dossier until it was published by BuzzFeed in January 2017. On October 27, 2017, the Free Beacon publicly disclosed that it had hired Fusion GPS, and stated that it "had no knowledge of or connection to the Steele dossier, did not pay for the dossier, and never had contact with, knowledge of, or provided payment for any work performed by Christopher Steele."

The Free Beacon came under criticism for its reporting on Fusion GPS. Three days before it was revealed that it was the Free Beacon that had funded the work by Fusion GPS, the Free Beacon wrote that the firm's work “was funded by an unknown GOP client while the primary was still going on." The Free Beacon has also published pieces that have sought to portray the work by Fusion GPS as unreliable "without noting that it considered Fusion GPS reliable enough to pay for its services." In an editor's note, Continetti said "the reason for this omission is that the authors of these articles, and the particular editors who reviewed them, were unaware of this relationship," and that the outlet was reviewing its editorial process to avoid similar issues in the future.

Just Joe

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1299 on: February 02, 2018, 01:50:07 PM »
Here is another good list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump–Russia_dossier_allegations