Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 104247 times)

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1150 on: December 05, 2017, 10:17:46 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller

The Deutsche Bank handed DT's info to Mueller. If anyone still had doubts if the president was being personally investigated...

Well DJT said months ago in an interview with the NY Times that any inquiry into his personal finances would be a 'red line' - we'll see what he does about this latest development.

"Follow the money" is a prosecutor's mantra.

Pure speculation: The loan backer is intimately involved with the Russian Government.
Could be (again, "we shall see"...).  I wonder whether any business irregularities and financial transgressions will pop up from DJT's past, and how those might play out.  his supporters will doubtless argue that these were before he was candidate or president Trump and therefore we should ignore them. I think that's ridiculous; a crime is a crime regardless of your current occupation. Whether he can be prosecuted for such things while in office is an open legal question.

Ultimately I think more transparency is healthy for our government. If there's nothing there it would be nice to end that speculation. If he bribed and cheated others and lied on his taxes, we ought to know about it.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1151 on: December 05, 2017, 10:41:41 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/05/donald-trump-bank-records-handed-over-robert-mueller

The Deutsche Bank handed DT's info to Mueller. If anyone still had doubts if the president was being personally investigated...

Well DJT said months ago in an interview with the NY Times that any inquiry into his personal finances would be a 'red line' - we'll see what he does about this latest development.

"Follow the money" is a prosecutor's mantra.

It would be interesting to know when DJT heard about this - did Deutsche Bank tell him at the time, has he found out since, or did he find out when the rest of us did?  The "tell" would be a tweetstorm on something diversionary.


Pure speculation: The loan backer is intimately involved with the Russian Government.
Seems logical, when not much else about a loan that size from that bank does.



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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1152 on: December 05, 2017, 11:00:16 AM »
It would be interesting to know when DJT heard about this - did Deutsche Bank tell him at the time, has he found out since, or did he find out when the rest of us did?  The "tell" would be a tweetstorm on something diversionary.

I doubt he had any official advance notice. Criminal probes don't want to telegraph their moves, and subpoenas typicalyl come with conditions to NOT tell the client. Still, team Trump has to have anticipated this. It's beyond obvious that Mueller would want to investigate financial ties between Trump and Russia.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1153 on: December 06, 2017, 10:21:09 PM »
Oops.

Bloomberg corrects Dec. 5 story that said subpoena ‘zeroed in’ on Trumps:
Quote
Those records pertain to people affiliated with President Donald Trump, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the action hasn’t been announced. Several news outlets -- including Bloomberg -- reported yesterday that the subpoena targeted Trump and his family’s bank records, which was disputed by Trump’s personal lawyer and the White House.

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1154 on: December 07, 2017, 07:45:39 AM »
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-jr-testimony-house-intel-committee-russia-probe-2017-12?__twitter_impression=true

Quote
Democratic Rep. Eric Swalwell said on Wednesday that Trump Jr. invoked attorney-client privilege and "refused to share anything" about what he and his father may have discussed about the statement when it was being drafted.

Trump Jr. did tell the committee, however, that he engaged in a back-and-forth about the wording of the statement with communications director Hope Hicks, a committee source confirmed to Business Insider.

"I think the overriding issue here is, why does every road lead to Russia?" Speier said on Wednesday.

You can't invoke attorney-client privilege if neither you nor your father are an attorney, Donnie.

Just another case of "Russia amnesia."  It's a mysterious medical condition that has afflicted Don Jr., Kushner, Sessions, and others in the Trump administration where they suddenly forget everything if you mention the word "Russia" to them.  Doctors cannot yet explain the condition.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1155 on: December 07, 2017, 08:11:31 AM »
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-jr-testimony-house-intel-committee-russia-probe-2017-12?__twitter_impression=true

Quote
Trump Jr. "has a very serious case of amnesia," and ... was "pretty non-responsive" during the meeting.

I just took a 3-day emergency 1st responder refresher course.  Memory loss and unresponsiveness are considered life-threatening conditions which require immediate transport to the nearest medical facility and close evaluation by advanced medical personnel.
Hopefully he is getting the medical treatment he needs.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1156 on: December 07, 2017, 08:21:14 AM »
Oops.

Bloomberg corrects Dec. 5 story that said subpoena ‘zeroed in’ on Trumps:

Quote
We have confirmed that the news reports that the Special Counsel had subpoenaed financial records relating to the president are false. No subpoena has been issued or received. We have confirmed this with the bank and other sources,” Trump’s lawyer John Dowd wrote in an email Dec. 5.

Interesting. There can be three conclusions from this; 1) Mueller indeed has not subpoenaed financial records for DJT, 2) Mueller has but Deutsche-Bank declined to share that with his council (possible if ordered not to under the subpoena) or 3) Mueller has subpoenaed the records, Deutsche-Bank told as much to Trump's legal team and Dowd is lying.

3) seems unlikely to me - as I understand it would immediately put Dowd on the hot-seat on the bar
2) is certainly possible, though the definitive wording in Dowd's statement ("No subpoena has been issued or received") is curious
1) ...how could Mueller possibly NOT follow financial connections between Russia and DJT... unless he already has them.  Maybe Mueller will subpoena those records in the future.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1157 on: December 07, 2017, 08:30:22 AM »
Interesting. There can be three conclusions from this; 1) Mueller indeed has not subpoenaed financial records for DJT, 2) Mueller has but Deutsche-Bank declined to share that with his council (possible if ordered not to under the subpoena) or 3) Mueller has subpoenaed the records, Deutsche-Bank told as much to Trump's legal team and Dowd is lying.

3) seems unlikely to me - as I understand it would immediately put Dowd on the hot-seat on the bar
2) is certainly possible, though the definitive wording in Dowd's statement ("No subpoena has been issued or received") is curious
1) ...how could Mueller possibly NOT follow financial connections between Russia and DJT... unless he already has them.  Maybe Mueller will subpoena those records in the future.

A bank cannot tell you when the Federal government has issued a subpoena for your banking records in a criminal investigation.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1158 on: December 07, 2017, 10:59:02 AM »
Interesting. There can be three conclusions from this; 1) Mueller indeed has not subpoenaed financial records for DJT, 2) Mueller has but Deutsche-Bank declined to share that with his council (possible if ordered not to under the subpoena) or 3) Mueller has subpoenaed the records, Deutsche-Bank told as much to Trump's legal team and Dowd is lying.

3) seems unlikely to me - as I understand it would immediately put Dowd on the hot-seat on the bar
2) is certainly possible, though the definitive wording in Dowd's statement ("No subpoena has been issued or received") is curious
1) ...how could Mueller possibly NOT follow financial connections between Russia and DJT... unless he already has them.  Maybe Mueller will subpoena those records in the future.

A bank cannot tell you when the Federal government has issued a subpoena for your banking records in a criminal investigation.

Interesting if that's a point of fact.  I had always assumed it was dependent on the wording of each individual subpoena. Glad I've never found out via direct experieince. 
if that's the case it's very curious that Dowd would issue that particular statement, as it's both meaningless and potentially false. I get that a big part of his job is to present a front of innocence for his client, but...
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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1159 on: December 07, 2017, 11:07:44 AM »
I get that a big part of his job is to present a front of innocence for his client, but...

Just like with the obstruction tweet, I'm pretty sure Dowd would say anything to protect the President.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1160 on: December 07, 2017, 11:28:11 AM »
Another possibility is that the Deutsche Bank loans were not to Trump personally but to one or more of the extensive network of companies which are part of the Trump organisation.  So the bank's denials and Trump's lawyers could both be correct, in the narrowest sense that the loans were made to a limited company owned by Trump rather than to Trump in person.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1161 on: December 07, 2017, 11:36:20 AM »
Another possibility is that the Deutsche Bank loans were not to Trump personally but to one or more of the extensive network of companies which are part of the Trump organisation.  So the bank's denials and Trump's lawyers could both be correct, in the narrowest sense that the loans were made to a limited company owned by Trump rather than to Trump in person.
ah, good point.  Within the legal system one must always consider that the statement is both true and constructed with so narrow a focus as to be completely useless.
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paddedhat

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1162 on: December 08, 2017, 03:35:03 AM »
So the great orange oligarch suffers what, to any reasonable observer, appears to be a mini-stroke while giving a speech, and the White House sends their professional pathological prevaricator, Sanders Huckabee, out to the podium to claim that he just needed a bit of water?  WTF?  This tragicomedy is degrading to the caliber of a third world dictatorship.

Kind of remind me of the knight getting his arm lopped off with sword in the Monte Python movie. "It's just a flesh wound". he responds after looking down at his missing limb. The pres. spends 15-20 seconds of a speech, slurring his words, and it''s "Nothing to see here folks. The president just needed a drink of water. Can we drop the desperate attempt at fabricating fake news, and move on to how the president is working hard to lower taxes on the working folks, and kill Obamacare, so we all can have great, affordable healthcare? "

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1163 on: December 08, 2017, 05:39:15 AM »
Can’t say what his health is, but I’m annoyed by their responses to inquiries (asking questions about it is “frankly ridiculous” said SHS).  DJT and Co. spent 2016 openly questioning HRC’s health,  going so far as to ‘diagnose’ her with dysphasia. 
What’s fair for team Trump to do towards others is unfair for anyone to do to him.  Such a double standard.

In other news, Manafort’s lawyers have acknowledged that he edited the Ukrainian Op-Ed piece.  Now he has to defend how this didn’t violate the gag-order placed on him with his indictment earlier last month.  Do these people ever stop and ask themselves “gee, should I be doing this?”  The arrogance is just mind-boggling.  How hard it is to simply do nothing related to other countries for a month?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1164 on: December 08, 2017, 06:12:35 AM »
Another possibility is that the Deutsche Bank loans were not to Trump personally but to one or more of the extensive network of companies which are part of the Trump organisation.  So the bank's denials and Trump's lawyers could both be correct, in the narrowest sense that the loans were made to a limited company owned by Trump rather than to Trump in person.
ah, good point.  Within the legal system one must always consider that the statement is both true and constructed with so narrow a focus as to be completely useless.

like never sending or recieving classified information to your private email server...oh wait completely false!

paddedhat

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1165 on: December 08, 2017, 06:14:39 AM »
Can’t say what his health is, but I’m annoyed by their responses to inquiries (asking questions about it is “frankly ridiculous” said SHS).  DJT and Co. spent 2016 openly questioning HRC’s health,  going so far as to ‘diagnose’ her with dysphasia. 
What’s fair for team Trump to do towards others is unfair for anyone to do to him.  Such a double standard.

In other news, Manafort’s lawyers have acknowledged that he edited the Ukrainian Op-Ed piece.  Now he has to defend how this didn’t violate the gag-order placed on him with his indictment earlier last month.  Do these people ever stop and ask themselves “gee, should I be doing this?”  The arrogance is just mind-boggling.  How hard it is to simply do nothing related to other countries for a month?

I find the double standard of the "Hillary collapsed, so she is dying within the next 48 hours" to be less of a concern than the fact that he obviously suffered a neurological event, and that POS Sanders stands in front of the camera and lies about it. He is arguably the most powerful man in the world, was struck with some sort of brain trauma while speaking to tens of millions, and the WH attempts to dismiss it. Sorry. but hell no.  I have spent the last two decades living with a partner who has a debilitating brain injury. Fact is, you do not just randomly start slurring your speech, and dismiss it as no big deal.

Manafort is no different than a lot of Trump's closest inner circle. They have spent a lifetime fully engaged in the belief that they are superior to most, and that rules, laws, common decency, respect for any of your "lessers", honestly, and personal integrity are all signs of weakness. Trump has become, arguably, wildly successful following this set of "values", and actively cultivates relationships with others who he sees as sharing his values. As was mentioned earlier here by another poster, I also believe that trump more fully embraced Flynn after Obama personally recommended that he dump Flynn, before it bites him in the ass.

nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1166 on: December 08, 2017, 06:56:31 AM »

I find the double standard of the "Hillary collapsed, so she is dying within the next 48 hours" to be less of a concern than the fact that he obviously suffered a neurological event, and that POS Sanders stands in front of the camera and lies about it. He is arguably the most powerful man in the world, was struck with some sort of brain trauma while speaking to tens of millions, and the WH attempts to dismiss it. Sorry. but hell no.  I have spent the last two decades living with a partner who has a debilitating brain injury. Fact is, you do not just randomly start slurring your speech, and dismiss it as no big deal.

Manafort is no different than a lot of Trump's closest inner circle. They have spent a lifetime fully engaged in the belief that they are superior to most, and that rules, laws, common decency, respect for any of your "lessers", honestly, and personal integrity are all signs of weakness. Trump has become, arguably, wildly successful following this set of "values", and actively cultivates relationships with others who he sees as sharing his values. As was mentioned earlier here by another poster, I also believe that trump more fully embraced Flynn after Obama personally recommended that he dump Flynn, before it bites him in the ass.

Under any 'normal' presidency (Rep or Dem) there would be a push to assure the nation and the world that whatever biological malady he suffered was examined and is/was more of a hiccup than a degenerative disorder.  That we have a fully functional executive branch is paramount to our government. Of course this is no normal presidency, and they are less interested in doing what's best and more about never admitting anything is wrong.

POS Sanders stands in front of the camera and lies about it.   That's the job she signed up for.  I have no respect for her now, but her job for better or worse is to stand up and say whateve lie DJT gives her.  Same with Spicey, same with the next guy/gal (what, you think SHS will be around in 3 years?  I'd take that bet!)

Yeah, Manafort, Trump etc. have always operated as if the rules didnd't apply to them.  Still, the arrogance led to one of the most boneheaded moves. the guy's being investigated for his connections with Ukraine. At some point you think he might say "gee, maybe now's not a good time to edit an OpEd for Ukraine".   Nope - that thought didn't seem to ahve crossed his mind.

the picture that's emerging from this whole debacle isn't of some great, well-concocted conspiracy but one of multiple cocky, arrogant people motivated by greed convinced that they could do as they pleased and somehow not get away with it, and then lie unconvincingly about it when people started asking questions. A well concocted conspiracy would have been much better hidden.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1168 on: December 08, 2017, 07:37:30 AM »
Nereo, good post. The arrogance is a really fascinating situation. In the end most of these clowns will end up self-destructing, and it will be entirely self-inflicted. Chances are they are all intelligent and driven enough to have enjoyed much success, without to need to operate in a moral vacuum.

As for Shitbag Sarah, I guess the draw of fame and power is worth selling your soul for?  Like you noted, trump's spokespeople seem to last as long as a jumbo roll of paper towels. Pretty hard to imagine, absent some off the wall, far right political operations, she is really employable in any normal career, here in the real world.  After having a very prominent position of looking the American public in the eye, while continually telling outrageous lies, and attempting to promote an alternative reality, based on what the bleach blond crack whore so eloquently coined as, "alternative facts".

[MOD NOTE:  I'm not even sure who we're talking about, but knock off the misogynistic insults.]
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 10:49:20 AM by FrugalToque »

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1169 on: December 08, 2017, 08:17:53 AM »
I dint think Trump had a stroke. I think his dentures came loose.  He's s 71 year old man with the most beautifully perfect teeth in the world, of course they're dentures.

But this is just as devastating as a health problem, to a man like trump who is so vain about his appearance.  He will absolutely refuse to admit that his fixodent failed him, just like he refuses to admit that he uses spray on tanner, or a hairstylist who specializes in weaves.  He's a tv personality obsessed with appearances, so he can't admit that he has fake teeth.  Not after he attacked Hillary for being too old to be president (he's older).

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1170 on: December 08, 2017, 09:06:49 AM »
Not for nothing, but the DW has a complete set of uppers, and watched the video repeatedly. She claims that based on experience, there is no way his denture fell. At best he would of needed a subtle break in his speaking, to force them upward with his tongue, which is possible, but hardly something you could do without being noticed. The other tell-tale is that it wouldn't result in an intermittent pattern of clarity and slur. On this I tend to agree, as I have been greatly concerned, when she is talking from another room, and her speech is consistently slurred. I end up running to see if she is having some sort of neurological issue, like one of her occasional seizures, only to find her really pissed that her adhesive failed again, and the denture fell.
No, based on a hell of a lot of person experience living with a stroke victim who wears dentures, my money is on the likely possibility that Orange Oligarch had a TIA (mini-stroke) in front of the camera. Given his supposed decades of sleep deficit, and use of the prostate drug finasteride, with it's known side effects, to combat hair loss, he has probably done a great deal of potential damage to his brain.

"At the same time, a recent study demonstrated changes in the levels of certain steroids in cerebrospinal fluid of men taking finasteride for hair loss. These steroids have been shown to influence brain function, and their presence may help explain the profound psychological changes such as depression and suicidality that have been associated with finasteride use."

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1171 on: December 08, 2017, 09:11:54 AM »
At best he would of needed a subtle break in his speaking, to force them upward with his tongue, which is possible, but hardly something you could do without being noticed.

I just figured he was trying to power through to the end of the speech, since he was mere sentences away, without making the obvious gesture of putting his teeth back in place.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1172 on: December 08, 2017, 09:19:22 AM »
Look, I hate that idiotic man-child as much as the next person, but I've watched it a few times, and it seems clear to me that he's having trouble with his lower teeth. Look at the way he juts his jaw out and seems to be trying to do something with his tongue repeatedly. And I don't see anything else wrong with him (well, no more than usual) in terms of any other body tremors, eyes not focusing, or any other facial evidence. This really seems like a non-issue to me. The dude has ill-fitting bottom teeth. Didn't put on enough Poli-Dent yesterday morning or something.

It was pretty surreal to hear him at the end, though. "God bless the United Sthahsashezezsszhz."
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1173 on: December 08, 2017, 09:28:07 AM »
Let's not be "that guy" obsessively over-analyzing potential maladies from afar.  Sometime was amiss at least twice in recent days - but there's little evidence it was caused by the Russians (you know, topic of this thread).

If Donald has a severe physical malady is almost certain to crop up again in the months to come; if its dentures or drymouth or whatever then that's that.  Congress has a duty to ensure the POTUS is capable of preforming his duties, though whether they would step in is questionable given their tacit defense of his worst antics to date.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1174 on: December 08, 2017, 09:29:08 AM »
the picture that's emerging from this whole debacle isn't of some great, well-concocted conspiracy but one of multiple cocky, arrogant people motivated by greed convinced that they could do as they pleased and somehow not get away with it, and then lie unconvincingly about it when people started asking questions. A well concocted conspiracy would have been much better hidden.
I have an alternative theory that these are all people whose ambition is greater than their abilities and that it was the cognitive dissonance created by this that led them all to crookedness - it was the only way in which they could marry their lack of ability with the level of worldly success they craved as proof of their superiority.

This is why they really believe that the world is against them rather than it just being a convenient story in their defence: in their eyes all they have done is what was necessary to get what was rightly due to them.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1175 on: December 08, 2017, 09:42:50 AM »

This is why they really believe that the world is against them rather than it just being a convenient story in their defence: in their eyes all they have done is what was necessary to get what was rightly due to them.
Yeah...

Trump: Never in history has anyone been treated as unfairly as I have.  Also, I'm worth TEN BILLION DOLLARS!!
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1176 on: December 08, 2017, 10:10:31 AM »
Nereo, good post. The arrogance is a really fascinating situation. In the end most of these clowns will end up self-destructing, and it will be entirely self-inflicted. Chances are they are all intelligent and driven enough to have enjoyed much success, without to need to operate in a moral vacuum.

As for Shitbag Sarah, I guess the draw of fame and power is worth selling your soul for?  Like you noted, trump's spokespeople seem to last as long as a jumbo roll of paper towels. Pretty hard to imagine, absent some off the wall, far right political operations, she is really employable in any normal career, here in the real world.  After having a very prominent position of looking the American public in the eye, while continually telling outrageous lies, and attempting to promote an alternative reality, based on what the bleach blond crack whore so eloquently coined as, "alternative facts".

I'm not a fan of Donald Trump (to put it mildly).  It's fine to be upset when someone lies to you on a regular basis.  Complain about what these people are doing, abuses of power, or give examples of incompetence.  Lowering yourself to simple name calling and unsupported speculation isn't going to help your case though.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1177 on: December 08, 2017, 10:23:51 AM »
Nereo, good post. The arrogance is a really fascinating situation. In the end most of these clowns will end up self-destructing, and it will be entirely self-inflicted. Chances are they are all intelligent and driven enough to have enjoyed much success, without to need to operate in a moral vacuum.

As for Shitbag Sarah, I guess the draw of fame and power is worth selling your soul for?  Like you noted, trump's spokespeople seem to last as long as a jumbo roll of paper towels. Pretty hard to imagine, absent some off the wall, far right political operations, she is really employable in any normal career, here in the real world.  After having a very prominent position of looking the American public in the eye, while continually telling outrageous lies, and attempting to promote an alternative reality, based on what the bleach blond crack whore so eloquently coined as, "alternative facts".

I'm not a fan of Donald Trump (to put it mildly).  It's fine to be upset when someone lies to you on a regular basis.  Complain about what these people are doing, abuses of power, or give examples of incompetence.  Lowering yourself to simple name calling and unsupported speculation isn't going to help your case though.

Seriously, you and I are about as far apart as it gets in our core values. Be that, the nanny state, personal responsibility, not degrading women by using inappropriate rape analogies, your definition of what is "unsupported speculation" in this case, etc..... How about a bit of an agreement here?  You refrain from offering your opinion on my posts, and I will do the same, eh? Doesn't seem real difficult, is it? 

paddedhat

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1178 on: December 08, 2017, 10:34:29 AM »
At best he would of needed a subtle break in his speaking, to force them upward with his tongue, which is possible, but hardly something you could do without being noticed.

I just figured he was trying to power through to the end of the speech, since he was mere sentences away, without making the obvious gesture of putting his teeth back in place.

Oh, I can certainly be wrong here, but I haven't heard the DW slip in and out of crisp annunciation, when a denture is loose. The other issue is the unscheduled appearance for a physical at Walter Reed. Somebody either identified a major issue, or the need to clearly point to the lack of one, for that egotistical mess to agree to head over there for a complete work up.

OTOH, after reading Kris's post, I watched the video again, and if you look for a failure in a lower denture, there is a lot of reason to believe that it may be the case. Particularly going beyond was Kris noted, and carefully watching him as he sits down. At that point he is clearly doing something odd with his tongue.

Edit to add:  I'm sure there are a few knowledgeable folks here, when it comes to speech issues. So, my question is, what impact does the something like a loose lower denture have, with regard to creating stroke like, slurred speech? I was always under the impression that speech difficulties are frequently a problem caused by the relationship between the tongue and the roof of the mouth?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 11:05:19 AM by paddedhat »

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1179 on: December 13, 2017, 03:08:12 PM »
http://www.newsweek.com/painfully-obvious-trump-charged-mueller-roger-stone-747155

If you believe Roger Stone, he says it's painfully obvious Trump will be charged by Mueller.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1180 on: December 13, 2017, 03:25:04 PM »
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/12/08/Fox-News-is-practically-begging-Trump-to-fire-Mueller/218781

^This is a truly terrifying read on the State-run Fox "News" Network.

https://shareblue.com/judiciary-dem-issues-dire-warning-gop-is-plotting-to-let-trump-fire-mueller/#.WjGXT14OafA.twitter

Quote
Last week, Trump huddled with anti-Mueller congressional forces on Air Force One who have previously described Mueller’s investigation as a “coup” against Trump and “very dangerous.” No doubt Trump got an earful about how the former Marine and longtime Republican prosecutor now represents the dark side.

And yes, Trump’s own attorneys have also recently moved into the fever swamps. Now fully embracing far-right conspiracy theories, they’ve put Mueller in their sights and are demanding that the Department of Justice appoint a second special counsel to investigate the work of Mueller and his team.

Quote
After listening to hours of the GOP’s bashing, Rep. Eric Swawell (D-CA) warned that Republicans were signaling to the White House that they would OK with Trump trying to obstruct justice.

So the State Propaganda Network is peddling BS conspiracy theories and paving the way for a denial if charges are brought against Trump (if he's innocent, why so scared?).  This is a network that broadcasts to millions of people daily - POTUS being one of them.

Now, it appears, there's a faction of the GOP paving the way for Trump/Rosenstein to fire Mueller.  Astounding.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1181 on: December 13, 2017, 03:51:14 PM »
how would firing Mueller play out in context of also trying to pass this tax bill?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1182 on: December 13, 2017, 10:58:40 PM »
how would firing Mueller play out in context of also trying to pass this tax bill?

Firing Mueller would be a total shit-show but he could do it at any time if he feels things getting away from him.

I'm sure his aides are urging him to wait until the tax bill is passed. If that takes too long -- after the New Year -- all bets are off.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1183 on: December 14, 2017, 07:42:50 AM »


Quote
Last week, Trump huddled with anti-Mueller congressional forces on Air Force One who have previously described Mueller’s investigation as a “coup” against Trump and “very dangerous.” No doubt Trump got an earful about how the former Marine and longtime Republican prosecutor now represents the dark side.

And yes, Trump’s own attorneys have also recently moved into the fever swamps. Now fully embracing far-right conspiracy theories, they’ve put Mueller in their sights and are demanding that the Department of Justice appoint a second special counsel to investigate the work of Mueller and his team.


Maybe that's what they meant by creating more jobs?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1184 on: December 14, 2017, 07:44:36 AM »
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1185 on: December 14, 2017, 09:08:58 AM »
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/12/14/16762840/mueller-trump-gaetz-jordan-perry-fire

^Vox lays out the 4 main points of the anti-Mueller movement.  It's all crap.

https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/941159085998858241

^Fox "News" is just a propaganda network.  Period.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1186 on: December 14, 2017, 09:55:40 AM »
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/12/14/16762840/mueller-trump-gaetz-jordan-perry-fire

^Vox lays out the 4 main points of the anti-Mueller movement.  It's all crap.

https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/941159085998858241

^Fox "News" is just a propaganda network.  Period.
Whether it's "crap" or not is largely irrelevant - what matters is whether enough people (and people of importance) believes the "crap".
Propaganda is influential for a reason, even when its demonstrably false.  The trick is combating it.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1187 on: January 03, 2018, 07:31:43 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/03/donald-trump-russia-steve-bannon-michael-wolff

Former White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon says meeting between Don Jr. and Russians was "treasonous" and "unpatriotic."

That, uh, kind of undermines Breitbart's narrative that this is all a Democratic hoax.
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nereo

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1188 on: January 03, 2018, 07:51:27 AM »
Former White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon says meeting between Don Jr. and Russians was "treasonous" and "unpatriotic."
...with friends like these, who needs enemies?
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1189 on: January 05, 2018, 08:15:45 AM »
Michael Schmidt's piece in the NYTimes shows a field of landmines for the Trump White House in the months ahead

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/04/us/politics/trump-sessions-russia-mcgahn.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Among the reporting
1) Mueller now has substantiated many of the notes that Comey himself took after meeting with DJT, including (via Priebus) that Trump urged Comey to stop investigating Michael Flynn ("... I hope you can let this go") and to state publicly that DJT was not under investigation.

2) Rosenstein kept the original memo drafted for firing Comey (now with Mueller) indicating that the reason given (he botched the investigation of Clinton's emails) was bogus

3) AG Jeff Sessions directed one of his aids to seek out damaging information on Comey as part of an effort to undermine the FBI director

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sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1190 on: January 05, 2018, 11:02:14 AM »
Michael Schmidt's piece in the NYTimes shows a field of landmines for the Trump White House in the months ahead

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/04/us/politics/trump-sessions-russia-mcgahn.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Among the reporting
1) Mueller now has substantiated many of the notes that Comey himself took after meeting with DJT, including (via Priebus) that Trump urged Comey to stop investigating Michael Flynn ("... I hope you can let this go") and to state publicly that DJT was not under investigation.

2) Rosenstein kept the original memo drafted for firing Comey (now with Mueller) indicating that the reason given (he botched the investigation of Clinton's emails) was bogus

3) AG Jeff Sessions directed one of his aids to seek out damaging information on Comey as part of an effort to undermine the FBI director

I agree that the new reporting confirms a pattern of obstruction of justice by multiple parties. 

But it won't matter.  Trump has so upset the apple cart that nothing matters anymore.  America as we knew her is dead and gone.  Nepotism is fine. Obstruction is fine.  Racism is fine.  Money laundering is fine.  Treason is fine.  We've gone full-on banana republic.  MAGA has finally killed American exceptionalism. Our formerly lofty ideals are now a joke.

Maybe a new administration can pull us from the ashes, or maybe too much has already burned and our empire is falling.  We've certainly abdicated all moral authority on the world stage, lost all credible leadership, and diminished our global relevance and influence.  The future belongs to China and Russia now, and they've earned it with (very different styles of) steady and effective goal-based leadership.  They've finally beaten Goliath.

But it was a nice run.  We helped win some world wars and we profited from the aftermath.  We admirably spread some democracy, but ultimately failed in the most democratic way possible.  I'm sure autocrats and dictators around the world are grinning ear to ear to see their post-war predictions finally playing out as envisioned.  Democracy plus capitalism was always an uneasy alliance, and now it has proven rotten at the core.  We are undone.

So America is at a turning point, I think.  The next decade will either require a full reversal of everything trumpish, or a full embrace of autocracy and the ruination of our constitution and our history.

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1191 on: January 05, 2018, 11:34:35 AM »
I'm not willing to throw in the red, white and blue towel just yet, Sol.
Yes, DJT has normalized everything from nepotism to crass behavior and language on the world stage. But while this is at least the temporary norm, we're a long way from embracing it.  AN overwhelming majority thinks negatively of his conduct, his tweets, his treatment of women.  Most believe he is racist or has racist tendencies. His approval ratings started in the toilet and have steadily crawled further down the drain.

So where might salvation come from?  Demographics might be the lynchpin. Those under 35 are the least supportive of DJT specifically and the most supportive of a wide range of social issues he rants and raves against (religious tolerance, gay rights, an interconnected global economy, easier immigration, de-criminalization of marijuana...).  Meanwhile, his (and now the GOP's) staunch base of rich white old guys is slowly dying off. It's very hard for me to imagine enough young people switching their minds to join this new GOP fast enough to replace all the members they are losing as their oldest members expire. Unapproval among blacks, latinos and people with advanced degrees continues to be incredibly high.
EVen without this demographic shift his support and power are subtly and slowly eroding. Support of republicans in general has slipped several points, though still in the upper 70s.  And at least of those non-GOP Trump voters are discovering that going for a candidate just because he promised to 'blow up the system' and 'drain the swamp' hasn't had the desired consequences on their day to day lives.

We've gone through such soul-searching national epidemics before.  McCarthy's 'red scare' went largely unchecked for almost 8 years before it consumed that SOB.  The Civil Rights movement lasted a good decade and featured such ignoble highlights as Gov Faubus blocking segregation, f-tards firebombing black churches while people were inside and tens of thousands of kkk marching in downtown DC.  We've also imprisioned US citizens simply because they or their parents might ahve come from asia, called for the 'extermination' of native americans who we had previously signed treaties with in good faith and (how could we forget) enslaved over ten million people. 
Yeah, we've done some monumentally bad stuff over the last three centuries, as has every single society on earth. But as you mentioned, Sol, we've interspaced those crimes with lots of very good, helping to lift the lifespan, standard of living and representation for billions.

... all is not lost, as long as we don't all just give up...
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Gondolin

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1192 on: January 05, 2018, 11:58:24 AM »
Quote
We are undone.

Sol, I HATE Trump and everything he does to my core. So, in general, I agree with you about the direction of the country.

That said, are you sure you haven't given in hyperbole here? Are you sure you're not indulging in a bit of the MAGA spirit yourself? Ya know, by appealing to a glorious, unblemished, imaginary American past where "everything was better"?

The nation survived the Grant administration, survived the Harding administration, survived the Nixon administration.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1193 on: January 05, 2018, 12:16:11 PM »
The Senate Judiciary committee just handed down its first criminal referral for . . . Christopher Steele.  Apparently, they're alleging Steele lied to the FBI about his contacts with reporters regarding information in the dossier.  To be clear -- not that anything actually in the dossier is a lie.  But that he lied to the FBI about having talked to reporters about the dossier.

Meanwhile, the FBI is renewing its investigation into the Clinton investigation.  It really doesn't even matter for what.

We've seen some undemocratic stuff in the past 12 months, but transparently using law enforcement apparatus to pursue political enemies seems like a new low.

The wind is howling outside my window.  And I am chilled to the bone.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/us/politics/christopher-steele-dossier-judiciary-committee.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fpolitics&action=click&contentCollection=politics&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/us/politics/clinton-foundation-fbi.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fpolitics&action=click&contentCollection=politics&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=sectionfront

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1194 on: January 05, 2018, 12:18:09 PM »
Quote
We are undone.

Sol, I HATE Trump and everything he does to my core. So, in general, I agree with you about the direction of the country.

That said, are you sure you haven't given in hyperbole here? Are you sure you're not indulging in a bit of the MAGA spirit yourself? Ya know, by appealing to a glorious, unblemished, imaginary American past where "everything was better"?

The nation survived the Grant administration, survived the Harding administration, survived the Nixon administration.

I absolutely am indulging in hyperbole.  It's my bread and butter, if you haven't noticed yet.

I have previously made the came argument that you made, about surviving bad presidents before.  Today I am feeling pessimistic, though.  The news coming from the white house today is unlike anything we've seen in generations.  The level of corruption and intentional destruction of American ideals, both from our leaders and the people who support them, does not give me hope that we will recover like we have in the past.  The nation is sick.

All empires die.  Is today our day?

DarkandStormy

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1195 on: January 05, 2018, 12:55:25 PM »
https://thinkprogress.org/ryan-nunes-russia-investigation-9affc788894a/

Spoiler - Paul Ryan said he'd do something, then two months later went against his word.  I am SHOCKED.

Quote
Only two months after promising that he would not allow Congress to interfere in the ongoing Russia investigation, House Speaker Paul Ryan on Wednesday reportedly backed colleague Devin Nunes in his attempts to subpoena the FBI for documents related to the matter.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/hillary-clinton/official-fbi-investigating-clinton-foundation-months-n835006

Official: FBI investigating Clinton Foundation ‘for months’

Welcome to The Banana Republic of America.
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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1196 on: January 05, 2018, 01:52:35 PM »
https://thinkprogress.org/ryan-nunes-russia-investigation-9affc788894a/

Spoiler - Paul Ryan said he'd do something, then two months later went against his word.  I am SHOCKED.

Quote
Only two months after promising that he would not allow Congress to interfere in the ongoing Russia investigation, House Speaker Paul Ryan on Wednesday reportedly backed colleague Devin Nunes in his attempts to subpoena the FBI for documents related to the matter.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/hillary-clinton/official-fbi-investigating-clinton-foundation-months-n835006

Official: FBI investigating Clinton Foundation ‘for months’

Welcome to The Banana Republic of America.

Trump is selling golf club memberships to get access to him (marked up twofold), and that money goes into his personal accounts.  The Clintons took donations for charity (a highly rated one, at that), and there's no evidence that they personally profited.  I...don't get this?  What is to investigate? What line can you draw from the charity to any actions as SoS?  Spoiler: there isn't one, but people are going to keep yelling about Uranium One until everyone just believes that she did something wrong.

Clinton has been investigated for years, and nothing has come of it.  Team Trump has been investigated for a few months, and Mueller's already bagged a few convictions, including the head honcho of the campaign.  It's like the Republicans are yelling about Hillary going 36 mph in a 35 zone while Trump is driving 85 mph the wrong way down the street running every light and has left a mangled pedestrian corpse a few miles back.  And we're yelling for the cops to stop him while they are busy giving Hillary a ticket, and Republicans are the bystanders saying "oh-so you don't CARE about the law! She was speeding!"

sol

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1197 on: January 05, 2018, 02:17:49 PM »
Not to engage in our own variety of whataboutism, but the Trump foundation has already been convicted and fined for tax fraud.  It is admittedly corrupt.  It's not an allegation or an investigation, it was convicted of fraud.  It's not that different from Trump university, or the bankrupt casinos, or the pageants, or the RE seminars.  This has always been his business model.

It wouldn't even surprise me if the Clinton foundation is also afoul of some tax laws.  Personal family foundations are, by their very nature, tax dodges.  The fact that Trump's was fined for tax evasion and Clinton's hasn't been yet doesn't really change my opinion on that matter.  I assume all family foundations are at least somewhat dirty, or else why have one?

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1198 on: January 05, 2018, 02:59:32 PM »

Clinton has been investigated for years, and nothing has come of it.  Team Trump has been investigated for a few months, and Mueller's already bagged a few convictions, including the head honcho of the campaign.  It's like the Republicans are yelling about Hillary going 36 mph in a 35 zone while Trump is driving 85 mph the wrong way down the street running every light and has left a mangled pedestrian corpse a few miles back.  And we're yelling for the cops to stop him while they are busy giving Hillary a ticket, and Republicans are the bystanders saying "oh-so you don't CARE about the law! She was speeding!"
Besides giving me a chuckle, your post highlights something I wish more people would appreciate and aknowledge - namely that the supposed sins of one person do not nullify the actions of another. 

"...but, but HILARY!" has been the GOP sycophant knee-jerk response to every allegation made against DJT over the past 2 years. It seeks to deflect but ultimately its the thinnest of ice one can stand on.  This is the intellectual equivalent of every 8 year old who has cried "But HE did it FIRST!"  How far did that excuse get you with your parent(s)? I'm guessing not very, and for good reason.
As Sol said I wouldn't be surprised if some tax irregularities in the Clinton Foundation came to light resulting in financial penalties. I wouldn't even be surprised if something there amounts to fraud.  But its not a defense for DJT, just a blatant and deliberate distraction.

Ironically the FBI's probe into the Clinton foundation (and DJT's enthusiastic support of said probe) should, in a logical world, only support investigation and charges of the Trump White House.  If we're going to say that the former FLOTUS and SoS must be above board and all of her actions should be carefully investigated for illegal activity, we must also hold that same standard to other senior members of the executive branch.

This is the dangerous gambit DJT is playing; he is trying to make the case that intense sustained investigations of his rivals and predecessor is warranted while simultanously arguing that any investigations revolving around him are a "hoax" and a "witch hunt". Further, the past could (and IMO should) come back to haunt the GOP.  Kenneth Starr was initially the special investigator looking into the Whitewater real estate deals, but ultimately honed in on WJC's affair after more than 4 years and $60MM (equiv to $92MM today)*.  Republicans are already getting itchy after 7 months, a plea deal and several indictments, and are yelling that Mueller is investigating beyond his original scope.

Speaking of which, "investigation beyond the original scope" also strikes me as an absolutely terrible, terrible defense.  This is like arguing a traffic cop should only issue a traffic ticket and go on his way even when he noticed the dead naked boy in your passenger seat after pulling you over for speeding. If there's evidence of a crime it should be pursued, regardless of the original approach.


*Of note: it took 4.5 years for Starr's investigation to land with the findings that caused WJC's impeachment. However the special investigation continued for almost another 4 years before finally being officially terminated. If Mueller were given the same leeway his invesigation would conclude in early 2025.
"Do not confuse complexity with superiority"

bacchi

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Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1199 on: January 05, 2018, 11:22:37 PM »
The Senate Judiciary committee just handed down its first criminal referral for . . . Christopher Steele.  Apparently, they're alleging Steele lied to the FBI about his contacts with reporters regarding information in the dossier.  To be clear -- not that anything actually in the dossier is a lie.  But that he lied to the FBI about having talked to reporters about the dossier.

Given that Trump besmirches the FBI every chance he gets, I'm sure it'll be their top priority to meet him at the airport next time he's in the states.

Similarly, with all the love thrown across the pond, the Brits won't be in any hurry to track him down and reveal his whereabouts.

If it gets to the level of an arrestable crime. They'd better hurry, though. They have a year before their "But! But! Hillary!" campaign meets a roadblock.