Author Topic: United States of Russia?  (Read 18299 times)

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
United States of Russia?
« on: December 11, 2016, 03:09:05 PM »
Surprised we haven't started a thread on this one yet. Now the intelligence community has a consensus view that Russia conspired to influence our election in favor of Trump. Add this to Trump's pro-Putin rhetoric and appointment of various pro-Russia cabinet members (the SoS, no less) and the conclusions start to draw themselves.

But we don't even have to go there. Straight up, we have the president elect not only refusing to take security briefings because he's "smart," but now flatly denying this bombshell, presumably because it makes him look bad. Post-truth indeed. So far the only "evidence" I've seen why we shouldn't be deeply concerned is that "they also said there were WMDs in Iraq!" Forgive me for not being reassured when the alternative is taking a narcissistic serial liar at his word.

PS - A true leader can still acknowledge the seriousness of the report and the need to investigate without feeling defensive about it, or even acknowledging that it delegitimizes his win. All Trump needs to say is something like "this is an outrage and a threat to American democracy that we will not let stand. I promise my administration will do all within my power to make sure any possible Russian actions are thoroughly investigated and responded to appropriately." That's what a true patriot would do.

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2016, 04:24:40 PM »
I thought this was a very good article: http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a51430/russia-election/

That said, most people (at least trump supporters) simply don't believe this.  They think it's a lie pushed by Hillary supporters.  I AM a Hillary supporter and was disinclined at first to believe this myself until I saw the sources were the leaders of the intelligence community all consistently reaching the same conclusion.

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2016, 04:27:02 PM »
And now the president elect, who has lied throughout his campaign, gets to lie from the White House and the presidential twitter account.  He is not a patriot.  He is in it for himself and his ego.

redbirdfan

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
  • Location: Seattle
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2016, 05:56:51 PM »
I wish I could say that I'm surprised.  Don't forget that Trump called for Russia to release Hillary's emails in a press conference and denied Russian interference in the election in a presidential debate.  He referred to Putin as a stronger leader than Obama and seems to bend over backwards to avoid criticizing Putin.  Michael Flynn, Carter Page, Manafort and Tillerson all have direct ties to Russia.  The transition team statement condemning the CIA for the WMD issue was the final straw for me.  I don't understand why Trump routinely puts down US intelligence to avoid acknowledging that Russia interfered with our election.  If we're lucky his reluctance to acknowledge Russia's role simply relates to his insecurity with the legitimacy of his win (in the same vein as his tweet about the popular vote).  Trump's refusal to accept the conclusions of US intelligence should be a concern on both sides of the aisle and to the American public in general. 

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2016, 06:52:00 PM »
Trump's response follows exactly the same pattern that all of his previous responses have followed going back decades: 1) Flatly deny the allegation, 2) attack whomever asked about it, and 3) attack the source/issue through slander and/or disinformation and/or diversion.

Trump gets asked about his misogynistic behavior/statements? Attack Megyn Kelly and talk about Bill Clinton.
Trump gets asked about Russian tampering? Deny it, discuss 13 year old intelligence failures (which were largely the administration cherry picking, rather than the CIA)

This pattern is also referred to as gaslighting. Even goddamn Teen Vogue sees this:
http://www.teenvogue.com/story/donald-trump-is-gaslighting-america

Amongst a long list of other earlier articles on the same topic:
https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+gaslighting+america&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I find Trump and his coterie despicable, but am also sad for humanity that it works.

In general, I think the standard operating procedure should be that if Trump follows this gaslighting pattern, the allegation should be considered factually correct until shown to be otherwise.

So... since gaslighting is well documented in abusive relationships, how are people supposed to deal with it? The solution is to get out of the relationship (DTMFA). Unfortunately, it seems that is not likely to be an option any time soon.

Sigh.

former player

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2135
  • Location: Avalon
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 02:14:01 AM »
Any chance the electoral college members can be persuaded that they would be committing treason if they voted for Trump?

The damage that could be done to the USA's interests, and by extension to the interests of the free world, if Trump is this pro-Russia for the next 4 years, is incalculable.
Be frugal and industrious, and you will be free (Ben Franklin)

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 05:03:57 AM »
Any chance the electoral college members can be persuaded that they would be committing treason if they voted for Trump?

I'd say somewhere between none and Buckley's.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 08:23:53 AM »
Two thoughts:

1.  An idea floated on Meet the Press yesterday that I agree with was that no one really predicted Trump's win, so Russia's releasing of Hillary's emails was more about discrediting the person Russia thought was going to be President than about swaying the election.  Seems plausible. 

2.  There's something a bit off, in my mind, about those on the left screaming about Russia influencing our election/politics by releasing emails written by the left.  I mean, if you find the emails so destabilizing when released...why did you write them?  We're not talking about classified information here, we're talking about election strategy and other banter between party leaders.  It seems as though the outrage about the release of the emails is intended to cover up the fact that there were some very odious things being bandied about in the Democratic party. 
"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2199
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2016, 08:31:42 AM »
Two thoughts:

1.  An idea floated on Meet the Press yesterday that I agree with was that no one really predicted Trump's win, so Russia's releasing of Hillary's emails was more about discrediting the person Russia thought was going to be President than about swaying the election.  Seems plausible. 

2.  There's something a bit off, in my mind, about those on the left screaming about Russia influencing our election/politics by releasing emails written by the left.  I mean, if you find the emails so destabilizing when released...why did you write them?  We're not talking about classified information here, we're talking about election strategy and other banter between party leaders.  It seems as though the outrage about the release of the emails is intended to cover up the fact that there were some very odious things being bandied about in the Democratic party.

This feels very much to me like the argument dismissing the erosion of privacy and civil liberties: "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about."

Do you seriously see nothing problematic about a foreign government working actively to elect one presidential candidate over another? Do you seriously reduce this to a simple partisan "liberal whining" issue?
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

sol

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4937
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2016, 08:56:24 AM »
those on the left screaming about Russia influencing our election/politics by releasing emails written by the left.  I mean, if you find the emails so destabilizing when released...why did you write them?

I'm less upset about the release of emails, though I would have preferred they released emails from BOTH sides of the election. 

I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

trollwithamustache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 154
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2016, 09:17:54 AM »
Its very likely true the Russians hacked both candidates offices. The Chinese probably hacked them both two. Israel runs a pretty tight ship on the intelligence front, so don't be surprised if they probably hacked them both too just to keep tabs on how future policy may affect them. A handful of other countries are smart enough to do this kind of snooping around with a decent cover of plausible deniability. A mess of independent guys probably got into some of both candidates computers too.  I could be totally wrong here, but I suspect the independent guys are more likely to dirty stuff for $$$$ than the state actors.

The problem is we will only see the summary of the report and none of the classified details. None of those details can be verified/checked/commented on by other experts.  All electronic systems that capture a lot of public attention will end up having their security flaws exposed or exploited.

If you want an interesting study in propaganda watch the TV network RT. They've been trying to destabilize America for years and are doing a hilariously amateur job at it.

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2016, 09:45:50 AM »
Its very likely true the Russians hacked both candidates offices. The Chinese probably hacked them both two. Israel runs a pretty tight ship on the intelligence front, so don't be surprised if they probably hacked them both too just to keep tabs on how future policy may affect them. A handful of other countries are smart enough to do this kind of snooping around with a decent cover of plausible deniability. A mess of independent guys probably got into some of both candidates computers too.  I could be totally wrong here, but I suspect the independent guys are more likely to dirty stuff for $$$$ than the state actors.

The problem is we will only see the summary of the report and none of the classified details. None of those details can be verified/checked/commented on by other experts.  All electronic systems that capture a lot of public attention will end up having their security flaws exposed or exploited.

If you want an interesting study in propaganda watch the TV network RT. They've been trying to destabilize America for years and are doing a hilariously amateur job at it.

This is true. It also seems that Trump won't see them either because he refuses to take the intelligence community seriously unless they are pushing a narrative he likes. This is, independently of the Russia election meddling, also quite terrifying. I have loads of issues with how our intelligence agencies conduct themselves, but for a president to openly doubt them, and by implication position himself to stock them with loyalists (to Trump, not the U.S.)? For a president to make policy based not on actual intelligence briefings but on what someone as "smart" as him thinks is going on? Yikes.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2016, 10:07:34 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate
"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

Malaysia41

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2793
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Half Way Around The World
    • My mmm journal
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2016, 10:36:29 AM »
Thanks for starting this thread Lagom,

a decent summary of what we know so far ( from reddit u/NeverHadTheLatin  ): 
(and sorry I didn't url link all the urls - you'll need to copy paste yo selves)

Quote
Everything we know to date:

Trump has become 'an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation'

Ex-director of the CIA publicly states that Putin has be successful in manipulating Trump - "In the intelligence business, we would say that Mr. Putin had recruited Mr. Trump as an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/opinion/campaign-stops/i-ran-the-cia-now-im-endorsing-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0

Trump campaign worked to undermine support for Ukraine

Throughout the campaign, Trump has been dismissive of calls for supporting the Ukraine government as it fights an ongoing Russian-led intervention. Trump’s campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, worked as a lobbyist for the Russian-backed former Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych for more than a decade.

Still, Republican delegates at last week’s national security committee platform meeting in Cleveland were surprised when the Trump campaign orchestrated a set of events to make sure that the GOP would not pledge to give Ukraine the weapons it has been asking for from the United States.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/trump-campaign-guts-gops-anti-russia-stance-on-ukraine/2016/07/18/98adb3b0-4cf3-11e6-a7d8-13d06b37f256_story.html?utm_term=.634e44e2df23

Trump states he doesn't believe Putin will invade the Ukraine - after Russia has already annexed Crimea

“He’s not going into Ukraine,” Trump said. “He’s not going to go into Ukraine. You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want.” “He’s already there isn’t he?” Stephanopoulos said. “Well, he’s there in a certain way,” Trump said.

http://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/pence-says-trump-knew-that-russia-invaded-crimea-heres-what-trump-actually-said/

Trump has been unclear on his relationship with Putin

In an interview with ABC News in August 2016, Trump said he had "no relationship with Putin." In an interview with MSNBC in 2013, Trump said "I do have a relationship, and he's very interested in what we're doing."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCFgYzf4DV4

Unexplained server connection between Russian bank and Trump Organisation

“I have an outlier here that connects to Russia in a strange way,” he wrote in his notes. He couldn’t quite figure it out at first. But what he saw was a bank in Moscow that kept irregularly pinging a server registered to the Trump Organization on Fifth Avenue. “I’ve never seen a server set up like that,” says Christopher Davis, who runs the cybersecurity firm HYAS InfoSec Inc. and won a FBI Director Award for Excellence for his work tracking down the authors of one of the world’s nastiest botnet attacks. “It looked weird, and it didn’t pass the sniff test.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/10/was_a_server_registered_to_the_trump_organization_communicating_with_russia.html

Russian diplomats and officials were in touch with Trump's team throughout the campaign

Russian government officials conferred with members of Donald Trump’s campaign team, a senior Russian diplomat said Thursday, a disclosure that could reopen scrutiny of the Kremlin’s role in the president-elect’s bitter race against Hillary Clinton. The statement came from Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, who said in an interview with the state-run Interfax news agency that “there were contacts” with the Trump team. “Obviously, we know most of the people from his entourage,” Ryabkov said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/moscow-had-contacts-with-trump-team-during-campaign-russian-diplomat-says/2016/11/10/28fb82fa-a73d-11e6-9bd6-184ab22d218e_story.html?utm_term=.e5300ac87f7f

Ex-Trump campaign chairman allegedly received undisclosed cash payments from pro-Russian Ukranian party

Handwritten ledgers show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Mr. Manafort from Mr. Yanukovych’s pro-Russian political party from 2007 to 2012, according to Ukraine’s newly formed National Anti-Corruption Bureau. Investigators assert that the disbursements were part of an illegal off-the-books system whose recipients also included election officials.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html

Trump advocates Russian hacking

Donald J. Trump said on Wednesday that he hoped Russian intelligence services had successfully hacked Hillary Clinton’s email, and encouraged them to publish whatever they may have stolen, essentially urging a foreign adversary to conduct cyberespionage against a former secretary of state.

“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said during a news conference here in an apparent reference to Mrs. Clinton’s deleted emails. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/28/us/politics/donald-trump-russia-clinton-emails.html

Russia was involved in passing along hacked information about the Clinton campaign to Wikileaks

Officials briefed on the matter were told that intelligence agencies had found that individuals linked to the Russian government had provided WikiLeaks with thousands of confidential emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and others.

"The U.S. Intelligence Community (USIC) is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails from US persons and institutions, including from US political organizations. The recent disclosures of alleged hacked e-mails on sites like DCLeaks.com and WikiLeaks and by the Guccifer 2.0 online persona are consistent with the methods and motivations of Russian-directed efforts. These thefts and disclosures are intended to interfere with the US election process. Such activity is not new to Moscow—the Russians have used similar tactics and techniques across Europe and Eurasia, for example, to influence public opinion there."

In early May, the DNC called in CrowdStrike, a security firm that specializes in countering advanced network threats. After deploying their tools on the DNC’s machines, and after about two hours of work, CrowdStrike found “two sophisticated adversaries” on the Committee’s network.

CrowdStrike linked both groups to “the Russian government’s powerful and highly capable intelligence services.” APT 29, suspected to be the FSB, had been on the DNC’s network since at least summer 2015. APT 28, identified as Russia’s military intelligence agency GRU, had breached the Democrats only in April 2016, and probably tipped off the investigation.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/10/cia-concludes-russia-interfered-to-help-trump-win-election-report http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/10/21/17-intelligence-agencies-russia-behind-hacking/92514592/ http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack

Russia was involved in the hacking of the Republican party but chose not release hacked information

The Russians hacked the Republican National Committee’s computer systems in addition to their attacks on Democratic organizations, but did not release whatever information they gleaned from the Republican networks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/obama-russia-election-hack.html

And I'm adding these comments on NATO: http://www.wsj.com/articles/nato-fires-back-after-donald-trump-questions-value-of-defending-allies-1469120175)
--------------------------------------

What's going on? Where's the outrage?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 10:57:32 AM by Malaysia41 »
Last one to panic wins!

My Rohingya Refugee Charity (now Tax Exempt!)

I'm an enemy of POTUS, VPOTUS, and the privately funded political system that inflicted them upon us.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2016, 10:39:46 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate.

... and that makes it okay somehow? The ends justify the means?

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2199
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2016, 10:43:43 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate.

... and that makes it okay somehow? The ends justify the means?

Honestly. I'm absolutely shocked that people can justify this in any way.
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

Lagom

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2016, 10:48:44 AM »
Thanks for those links Malaysia. Where is the outrage indeed... I have noticed a substantial drop in the presence of Trump supporters in our various political threads over the past week or two. Perhaps they are finally realizing how crazy the "he's no worse than HRC" narrative was. More likely, they are doing what most do when faced with extreme cognitive dissonance--tune out anything that disrupts the narrative they've created for themselves.

I sometimes feel like I'm becoming a bit numb to it myself, but then I suppose that's gaslighting in a nutshell. This is the most terrifying thing of all. Somehow, the most scandal ridden president in our history (and this is before he's even inaugurated!) is slowly but surely convincing the public (or enough of it, at least), that only he is telling them the truth. "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled..."


sol

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4937
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2016, 10:54:31 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate.

... and that makes it okay somehow? The ends justify the means?

Honestly. I'm absolutely shocked that people can justify this in any way.

Particularly in a way that is patently false.  Trump has been literally convicted of corruption in a court of law.  Clinton has never even stood accused, much less been convicted.

Unless by "accused" you mean by angry people on the internet.  In that case she's been accused of just about everything.

We don't need foreign powers to infiltrate the US government to know that Trump is corrupt.  He's admitted it in court.  He's admitted it on television.  Why do people still buy this narrative that he's fighting corruption, rather than embodying it?

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2016, 10:58:50 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate.

... and that makes it okay somehow? The ends justify the means?

Honestly. I'm absolutely shocked that people can justify this in any way.

Particularly in a way that is patently false.  Trump has been literally convicted of corruption in a court of law.  Clinton has never even stood accused, much less been convicted.

Unless by "accused" you mean by angry people on the internet.  In that case she's been accused of just about everything.

We don't need foreign powers to infiltrate the US government to know that Trump is corrupt.  He's admitted it in court.  He's admitted it on television.  Why do people still buy this narrative that he's fighting corruption, rather than embodying it?

Why bring Clinton into this? She is never going to be President. Trump will stand or fail on his own, to be compared with other presidents.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2016, 10:59:57 AM »
I am absolutely amazed at the almost supernatural extent of deception evident in trump's campaign and now in the run-up to his presidency.  It's surreal.  I cannot fathom how people are falling for this.  He lies every time he opens his mouth.

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2016, 11:02:49 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate.

... and that makes it okay somehow? The ends justify the means?

Doesn't make it okay, just makes it laughable.  The outrage from the Hillary supporters of "how dare they expose our dark terrible secrets" is amusing to me.
"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

Chris22

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2016, 11:04:10 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate.

... and that makes it okay somehow? The ends justify the means?

Honestly. I'm absolutely shocked that people can justify this in any way.

Particularly in a way that is patently false.  Trump has been literally convicted of corruption in a court of law.  Clinton has never even stood accused, much less been convicted.

Unless by "accused" you mean by angry people on the internet.  In that case she's been accused of just about everything.

We don't need foreign powers to infiltrate the US government to know that Trump is corrupt.  He's admitted it in court.  He's admitted it on television.  Why do people still buy this narrative that he's fighting corruption, rather than embodying it?

Yeah, you're right, I'm being loose with my words and such.  But hackers bringing to light emails about the DNC colluding with the Hillary campaign to screw over Bernie, that sort of thing.
"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2016, 11:07:51 AM »
I'm more upset about the apparent coordination between the Trump campaign staff and the Russian hackers doing the leaking.  This wasn't just a case of a hostile foreign power trying to sway an election, it was a case of a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to win an election.

It was a US candidate collaborating with a hostile foreign power to expose corruption in the other US candidate.

... and that makes it okay somehow? The ends justify the means?

Doesn't make it okay, just makes it laughable.  The outrage from the Hillary supporters of "how dare they expose our dark terrible secrets" is amusing to me.

There were no dark terrible secrets.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2016, 11:09:45 AM »
Beware the danger of false equivalencies. (Potentially) colluding with foreign powers is a far cry from pulling the political levers of a party for a nomination.

trollwithamustache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 154
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2016, 11:35:50 AM »

Trump is a on a low information diet, even if he didn't read MMM :). What is so magical about daily intelligence briefings?   He's not actually president yet, his only actual job responsibility as president elect is to get all his cabinet and staff people on board so they are ready to go. If Obama makes some decision about Syria and if they tell trump an hour later or two days later what changes?

He is definitely an outsider and a wild card. He likely doesn't believe everything he said while campaigning, and that is both hopefully a good thing if he doesn't build a wall and a bad thing in that we really have no idea what wild $ss thing he's going to try. The China sabre rattling before actually in office seems more dangerous.

My plan is to make my ACLU and EFF donations this year. Next year we will start the first hundred days of useless political news that we as the American public must endure every time we get a new jockey.  By June we might even know what Trump is really up to.

bacchi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1852
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2016, 11:43:00 AM »
He's feuding with members of his own party (Ryan wouldn't speak his name until a few weeks ago.) He's feuding with the intelligence community (all 17 agencies agree -- Russia was involved in the hacking -- but Trump denies it). He's now taking on the defense companies (Lockheed and Boeing).

He'll be done in 2 years. Either he'll be enriching himself at the public trough or he'll be playing footsies too much with Putin.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2024 (maybe?)
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2016, 11:45:04 AM »

Trump is a on a low information diet, even if he didn't read MMM :). What is so magical about daily intelligence briefings?   He's not actually president yet, his only actual job responsibility as president elect is to get all his cabinet and staff people on board so they are ready to go. If Obama makes some decision about Syria and if they tell trump an hour later or two days later what changes?

He is definitely an outsider and a wild card. He likely doesn't believe everything he said while campaigning, and that is both hopefully a good thing if he doesn't build a wall and a bad thing in that we really have no idea what wild $ss thing he's going to try. The China sabre rattling before actually in office seems more dangerous.

My plan is to make my ACLU and EFF donations this year. Next year we will start the first hundred days of useless political news that we as the American public must endure every time we get a new jockey.  By June we might even know what Trump is really up to.

Because Trump is the poster child for Dunning-Kruger syndrome. The best remedy for D-K is improved subject knowledge. Also, the low-information diet is closely tied to the circle of influence. As president, the circle of influence is pretty frigging big and the low-information diet is a REALLY bad idea.

Malaysia41

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2793
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Half Way Around The World
    • My mmm journal
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2016, 12:11:24 PM »
He's feuding with members of his own party (Ryan wouldn't speak his name until a few weeks ago.) He's feuding with the intelligence community (all 17 agencies agree -- Russia was involved in the hacking -- but Trump denies it). He's now taking on the defense companies (Lockheed and Boeing).

He'll be done in 2 years. Either he'll be enriching himself at the public trough or he'll be playing footsies too much with Putin.

It's a matter of time before Trump gets the boot (unless this gaslighting actually works on the masses). But all the while Pence is in charge of the day to day. When Trump goes, the appointments and the Pence will remain. By some measures, Pence is slightly better. By others, not so much.
Last one to panic wins!

My Rohingya Refugee Charity (now Tax Exempt!)

I'm an enemy of POTUS, VPOTUS, and the privately funded political system that inflicted them upon us.

Moustaches

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 442
  • Age: 38
  • Location: DC
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2016, 12:36:41 PM »

Trump is a on a low information diet, even if he didn't read MMM :). What is so magical about daily intelligence briefings?   He's not actually president yet, his only actual job responsibility as president elect is to get all his cabinet and staff people on board so they are ready to go. If Obama makes some decision about Syria and if they tell trump an hour later or two days later what changes?

He is definitely an outsider and a wild card. He likely doesn't believe everything he said while campaigning, and that is both hopefully a good thing if he doesn't build a wall and a bad thing in that we really have no idea what wild $ss thing he's going to try. The China sabre rattling before actually in office seems more dangerous.

My plan is to make my ACLU and EFF donations this year. Next year we will start the first hundred days of useless political news that we as the American public must endure every time we get a new jockey.  By June we might even know what Trump is really up to.

Because Trump is the poster child for Dunning-Kruger syndrome. The best remedy for D-K is improved subject knowledge. Also, the low-information diet is closely tied to the circle of influence. As president, the circle of influence is pretty frigging big and the low-information diet is a REALLY bad idea.

Because President George W Bush ignored counter-terrorism warnings until 9-11, including a Presidential Daily Briefing titled "Al Qaeda Determined to Strike Inside the United States", and look what happened in his first year in office.
Live like a badass, so that later you can live like a badass.

Norioch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 107
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2016, 03:46:05 PM »
Of course Russia was trying to help Trump win. That was plainly obvious to anyone paying attention before the election. I've yet to see any concrete evidence that Russia actually helped *rig* the election (in the sense of hacking electronic voting machines to change vote counts) but I wouldn't put it past them.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2199
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2016, 03:59:39 PM »
Of course Russia was trying to help Trump win. That was plainly obvious to anyone paying attention before the election. I've yet to see any concrete evidence that Russia actually helped *rig* the election (in the sense of hacking electronic voting machines to change vote counts) but I wouldn't put it past them.

Plus, you can hardly blame them, honestly. I mean, God, can you imagine the glee with which Putin views having a "useful idiot" in the WH instead of Hillary Clinton? How could he help himself?
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2016, 04:11:11 PM »
Of course Russia was trying to help Trump win. That was plainly obvious to anyone paying attention before the election. I've yet to see any concrete evidence that Russia actually helped *rig* the election (in the sense of hacking electronic voting machines to change vote counts) but I wouldn't put it past them.

Plus, you can hardly blame them, honestly. I mean, God, can you imagine the glee with which Putin views having a "useful idiot" in the WH instead of Hillary Clinton? How could he help himself?

"Puppet!  Puppet!  You're the puppet!"

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2016, 05:57:51 PM »
The sad part is at this point publicly nothing will happen. Trump is basically immune to bad press as his supporters appear to believe everything he says.... Maybe this has been true of presidents for awhile now, the Trump is a particularly brazen and disgusting liar.

I think you can both be happy to see DNC corruption revealed and outraged that a major US party would take foreign hacking aid to help prop up their political capital over an opponents.

If you are only outraged by both sides of this you are just being a jackass.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2016, 06:21:14 PM »
I will also say that short of straight out hacking votes Russia could not make Hillary lose the election in a vacuum.

There was a lot of cynicism and dislike for her that made a lot of the bad press stick. Unfortunately you can't fight foreign and domestic false propaganda and real leaks by just bitching about them on the news. You have to put up popular candidates and have messaging that is strong enough to outweigh the slew of shit that inevitably gets tossed at a presidential candidate.

With the global flow information, guaranteeing that the internet never produces facts or false stories maybe even at the behest of a foreign power is next to impossible. A well funded and powerful group like the DNC simply has to be more nimble and find more politically effective ways to counter these outside influences.

Trying to correct this stuff as the administration that allegedly befitted from the foul play is taking office is just an absolute shit show. And even if its true it comes off as propaganda and more political maneuvering.

As sad as it is to say the inept Trump campaign with all its worthless members appears to have outmaneuvered the DNC completely. Trump managed to get the whole media outraged over thin claims of potential hacking and not accepting the outcome if he loses. Then the DNC loses and are essentially forced into a corner encouraged to do all the things Trump was railed on for claiming he would do.

The cynical side of me cant wait for this to be over and hopes Trump's idiocy and lack of leadership will end up shafting the majority of his base so they can see how empty all of his promises were.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2199
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2016, 06:29:39 PM »
I will also say that short of straight out hacking votes Russia could not make Hillary lose the election in a vacuum.

There was a lot of cynicism and dislike for her that made a lot of the bad press stick. Unfortunately you can't fight foreign and domestic false propaganda and real leaks by just bitching about them on the news. You have to put up popular candidates and have messaging that is strong enough to outweigh the slew of shit that inevitably gets tossed at a presidential candidate.

With the global flow information, guaranteeing that the internet never produces facts or false stories maybe even at the behest of a foreign power is next to impossible. A well funded and powerful group like the DNC simply has to be more nimble and find more politically effective ways to counter these outside influences.

Trying to correct this stuff as the administration that allegedly befitted from the foul play is taking office is just an absolute shit show. And even if its true it comes off as propaganda and more political maneuvering.

As sad as it is to say the inept Trump campaign with all its worthless members appears to have outmaneuvered the DNC completely. Trump managed to get the whole media outraged over thin claims of potential hacking and not accepting the outcome if he loses. Then the DNC loses and are essentially forced into a corner encouraged to do all the things Trump was railed on for claiming he would do.

The cynical side of me cant wait for this to be over and hopes Trump's idiocy and lack of leadership will end up shafting the majority of his base so they can see how empty all of his promises were.

There isn't a vacuum. There is, however: concerted voter suppression, fake news, Russian interference, the absolute shit "Citizens United" ruling, and a stupid-as-shit retrograde electoral college that perpetuates the notion that rural white voters are more important than the rest of us and actually allows them to state, with no irony whatsoever, that the "popular" vote is not the will of "the people."

Among other things.

Is HRC the best candidate the DNC ever put forward? No.

But don't give me this bullshit that she "lost" the election all by herself. She had plenty of shit working against her. And I'm not even going to bring up the fact that she's a woman who made the colossal error of marrying a man that was a philandering piece of shit -- and committed the unspeakable political folly of actually staying in the marriage.

Even though if she had divorced him, that would have just been another strike against her.
"Well I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation."   - David St. Hubins, This is Spinal Tap

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2016, 06:52:05 PM »
Guess what?  Trump (and trump supporters) no longer get to blame Hillary for everything.  This is now about Trump.  Good luck trying to defend him.

iris lily

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2016, 07:10:28 PM »

Trump is a on a low information diet, even if he didn't read MMM :). What is so magical about daily intelligence briefings?   He's not actually president yet, his only actual job responsibility as president elect is to get all his cabinet and staff people on board so they are ready to go. If Obama makes some decision about Syria and if they tell trump an hour later or two days later what changes?

He is definitely an outsider and a wild card. He likely doesn't believe everything he said while campaigning, and that is both hopefully a good thing if he doesn't build a wall and a bad thing in that we really have no idea what wild $ss thing he's going to try. The China sabre rattling before actually in office seems more dangerous.

My plan is to make my ACLU and EFF donations this year. Next year we will start the first hundred days of useless political news that we as the American public must endure every time we get a new jockey.  By June we might even know what Trump is really up to.

This is pretty good, and other than your donations,I'm on board with what you said. Are ye in D.C. then?
Haha

iris lily

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2016, 07:17:38 PM »
Guess what?  Trump (and trump supporters) no longer get to blame Hillary for everything.  This is now about Trump.  Good luck trying to defend him.
But we can blame Obama for wuite some time, just as I still hear occasional Bush blames even 8 years later.

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3697
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2016, 07:21:44 PM »
Guess what?  Trump (and trump supporters) no longer get to blame Hillary for everything.  This is now about Trump.  Good luck trying to defend him.
But we can blame Obama for wuite some time, just as I still hear occasional Bush blames even 8 years later.

Precedent has definitely been set.

Everything is the fault of whichever previous president you liked least.

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3121
  • Age: 9
  • Location: WA
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2016, 07:22:24 PM »
I hold no view on the role of Russia in this particular election.

But I do find it hilarious to see the United States be on the receiving end of international meddling, after using every trick in the book to install their guys in various countries for the last 50 years.

waltworks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2016, 08:19:17 PM »
I can't imagine anything Trump said in an email is much worse than the stuff he said in public, and the folks who voted for him would just say "oh, he's not serious about soliciting a bribe/killing a prostitute/doing meth with the leaders of ISIS, that's how everyone talks, blah blah blah" to justify it, so it sort of doesn't matter that the Trump campaign's dirty laundry didn't get aired by Russian hackers. They aired plenty on their own, and the mouth-breathing voters didn't care.

But sadly I have to agree with those knuckle-draggers a little: the emails made me less likely to vote for Clinton (I wasn't planning to anyway, though). The fact that the Russians interfered in the election and probably tipped it to Trump makes me very nervous about the future of democracy. If twitter bots and a few stolen passwords is all it takes to change the politics of the world - then we are all screwed, because some 13 year old on 4chan thinks chaos would be funny and your 80 year old granny believes every click-bait ad on Breitbart about Clinton killing children at pizza parlors.

If I were Trump, I would *at the least* call for a thorough investigation and levy massive sanctions/inflict serious retaliation on Russia. This kind of crap can't happen, IMO it's bordering on an act of war. I might consider resigning my office, too.

We know he will do neither of those things because he has no honor, but I can dream.

While I'm daydreaming, maybe the EC will decide to elect Kasich or Rubio... or Paul Ryan's dog. I'd go for anyone/thing that isn't obviously insane.

What a cluster.

-W

sol

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4937
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2016, 08:39:17 PM »
The fact that the Russians interfered in the election and probably tipped it to Trump makes me very nervous about the future of democracy. If twitter bots and a few stolen passwords is all it takes to change the politics of the world - then we are all screwed, because some 13 year old on 4chan thinks chaos would be funny and your 80 year old granny believes every click-bait ad on Breitbart about Clinton killing children at pizza parlors.

Don't you think you're exaggerating the stability of global political institutions?  I think the world is, and has always been, far more fragile than is generally recognized.

Let's make a list of the ingredients required to enact some of the most influential events in modern history.

1.  some student visas, flight lessons, box cutters, and boarding passes = 9/11.

2.  one Browning model 1910 pistol and two bullets = WW1, and then WW2.

3.  a note, a hammer, and a bad attitude = the Protestant Reformation.

4.  a lightly defended ship full of tea = the American Revolution.

I could go on, but you get my point.  History is always at a flashpoint, and all it takes is the right nudge at the right time to dramatically alter the course of world events.  Don't be fooled into thinking this dance is choreographed in any particular direction, it's more like a mosh pit than can go south on you at any moment.

Cathy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1043
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2016, 09:11:51 PM »
Particularly in a way that is patently false.  Trump has been literally convicted of corruption in a court of law.

Is this claim true? I don't read the news regularly so I may have missed it, but I don't recall hearing about this.

As far as I know, Trump has settled a variety of lawsuits, but civil settlements typically do not include an admission of wrongdoing. (Certainly, the parties to a settlement can negotiate over whether any wrongdoing will be admitted, but as far as I know this is not a common term in civil settlements.) The fact that somebody has settled a lawsuit by agreeing to pay money does not necessarily mean that they did anything wrong; it could mean, for example, that they decided the case isn't worth litigating for a variety of reasons (such as it being time consuming, and the amount of money not being significant to the person), so the settlement could be an instrument of convenience, rather than an admission of guilty.

It's not my intent to defend Trump, and indeed I express no view on him, but misconstruing settlements has ramifications far beyond Trump. Good people settle lawsuits all the time, and it doesn't necessarily mean they did anything wrong. You simply can't infer that from a settlement, unless an admission of wrongdoing is actually a term of the settlement.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 09:13:49 PM by Cathy »
This post contains only general information on the issues raised by this topic. This post does not provide help tailored to your specific situation. There are many facts that could be relevant to your specific situation and I am not in possession of those facts. If you need help tailored to your specific situation, you should retain an appropriate professional and not rely on this post.

sol

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4937
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2016, 09:58:39 PM »
I wasn't talking about the lawsuits he has settled, but the ones that went to court and that he then lost.

Look him up, he's done some dirty dirty stuff in his life.  Like the time he illegally bought 19 cars for the mob boss who helped him build a casino.  Or the time his father "bought" 3.5 millIon dollars worth of casino chips without gambling, to avoid having it show up as a loan.  Or, you know, that time he coordinated with a hostile foreign power to infiltrate United states government computer systems in order to subvert American democracy.

Okay that last one hasn't been proven in a court of law yet.

gimp

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2349
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2016, 10:05:52 PM »
Anything the FBI says about Hillary is true and patriotic and brave, but anything the CIA says about trump is a liberal lie, right?

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2016, 04:02:23 AM »
Precedent has definitely been set.

Everything is the fault of whichever previous president you liked least.

Fuckin' Andrew Johnson....

I hold no view on the role of Russia in this particular election.

But I do find it hilarious to see the United States be on the receiving end of international meddling, after using every trick in the book to install their guys in various countries for the last 50 years.

Right? And typical of Americans, when things don't go our way, or the world dares to reach out and touch US... we completely lose our shit. Absolutely flat chat meltdown...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 04:04:49 AM by Metric Mouse »
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2016, 04:11:50 AM »
I can't imagine anything Trump said in an email is much worse than the stuff he said in public, and the folks who voted for him would just say "oh, he's not serious about soliciting a bribe/killing a prostitute/doing meth with the leaders of ISIS, that's how everyone talks, blah blah blah" to justify it, so it sort of doesn't matter that the Trump campaign's dirty laundry didn't get aired by Russian hackers. They aired plenty on their own, and the mouth-breathing voters didn't care.

But sadly I have to agree with those knuckle-draggers a little: the emails made me less likely to vote for Clinton (I wasn't planning to anyway, though). 
-W

I think that what this election shows is that if the electorate is given more information, voting patterns change dramatically. What scares me is the display of how little we as voters know about the candidates and their activities - even from candidates that have been intensely scrutinized by the public eye and all levels of the government, for decades.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8182
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: United States of Russia?
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2016, 06:53:07 AM »
Precedent has definitely been set.

Everything is the fault of whichever previous president you liked least.

Fuckin' Andrew Johnson....

Nah, it's all because of that fat bastard Taft.

jrhampt

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 970
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Connecticut

Freedom2016

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 468