Ukraine

[YttriumNitrate]

During the Vietnam War, the U.S. government consistently lied to the American people.  The enemy body counts and capabilities were not truthful.

I thought it turned out that the US's estimation of the body counts in Vietnam turned out to be fairly accurate, it's just that the North Vietnamese leaders were willing to lose 10 times as many people to win the war.

Ironically, although condemned as wildly inflated, the U.S. body counts reflecting heavy North Vietnamese and Viet Cong casualties were borne out. North Vietnam’s defense minister, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, admitted in an interview with an Italian reporter in 1969 that he had lost 500,000 soldiers killed from 1964 to 1969 alone. But accurate or not, the figures were meaningless.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-02-09-mn-675-story.html

[Travis]

During the Vietnam War, the U.S. government consistently lied to the American people.  The enemy body counts and capabilities were not truthful.

I thought it turned out that the US's estimation of the body counts in Vietnam turned out to be fairly accurate, it's just that the North Vietnamese leaders were willing to lose 10 times as many people to win the war.

Ironically, although condemned as wildly inflated, the U.S. body counts reflecting heavy North Vietnamese and Viet Cong casualties were borne out. North Vietnam’s defense minister, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, admitted in an interview with an Italian reporter in 1969 that he had lost 500,000 soldiers killed from 1964 to 1969 alone. But accurate or not, the figures were meaningless.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-02-09-mn-675-story.html

US military intelligence estimates of enemy strength were wildly off the mark. Even if the final numbers of enemy dead ended up more or less correct, ground commanders were often guessing or were pressured into outright lying since enemy KIA was pretty much the only thing written on their evaluation reports.  Also, the Army wouldn't have a good idea how many were killed from artillery and air strikes so the Air Force probably made up for whatever numbers the Army was putting out. 

I think it was SECDEF Clark Clifford or another senior DoD civilian who stumped an Army briefer mid-speech and actually did the math in front of him pointing out that his numbers for enemy strength plus reinforcement rate minus KIA and WIA would mean the enemy had nobody left standing to fight. It wasn't the only way to measure success they used, but it was a poor one.

https://warontherocks.com/2017/10/a-vicious-entanglement-part-v-the-body-count-myth/

[Travis]

Update on the next wave of weapons we're sending to Ukraine. It's big.

50 Bradleys plus 10 TOW missiles per vehicle
100 M113s
55 MRAPs
138 Humvees
18 M109 155mm self-propelled howitzers plus support vehicles
70k rounds of artillery ammo
500 Excalibur GPS-guided artillery shells
1200 artillery-fired mines
36 105mm artillery w/95k rounds
10k 120mm mortar rounds
More GMLRS
Sea Sparrow anti-air missiles
Zuni air to ground rockets
2000 antitank missiles
Small arms, claymore mines, night vision goggles, and various spare parts

https://twitter.com/beverstine/status/1611442805800374296

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I'm mainly talking to the people that want to 'take the fight into Russia'.  It's not needed and likely counter-productive. 

Who are you quoting?  I said "show Russians that the war is coming to them", which you claimed to understand.  And yet you also talk about "no intentional killing of civilians", when I did not mention killing civilians intentionally.  You talk of "bombing major cities in Russia", when I said to blow up a bridge late at night.  I think it's fair to say you do not understand what I said, and your posts demonstrate that well.

Zelensky has said many times that he wants to win this war 'with honor'.  I'm guessing that means no intentional killing of civilians.

Ukraine can't win this war without Western support.  And I am convinced that Western support would dry up if Ukraine started bombing major cities in Russia.

I have to say, how many people who are like "show Russia the war is coming to them!" remember, say, OUR reaction to the 9-11 attacks?

You're quoting some of what I said, then grossly misinterpreting it.  So here is what I said:

Note I didn't say bomb random cities - I said target Moscow.  Put a hole in a spire of the Kremlin, detonate a bridge late at night.  But show Russians that the war is coming to them, and that their leader is losing.

Attacking civilians is always, always, always a stupid idea.

Russia has deliberately killed tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians.

I understand what you are saying.  It's a terrible idea.

So, do you think my main point is wrong?  My main point being that simply winning the war and reclaiming Crimea will be sufficient to make Putin look weak?

You direct your post "talking to the people" followed by a misquote from me, and yet you don't understand what I'm saying.  Here you reply to me, yet your reply has no relationship to what I said in my post, adding to the body of evidence you do not know what I'm saying.

[Tyson]

I'm mainly talking to the people that want to 'take the fight into Russia'.  It's not needed and likely counter-productive. 

Who are you quoting?  I said "show Russians that the war is coming to them", which you claimed to understand.  And yet you also talk about "no intentional killing of civilians", when I did not mention killing civilians intentionally.  You talk of "bombing major cities in Russia", when I said to blow up a bridge late at night.  I think it's fair to say you do not understand what I said, and your posts demonstrate that well.

Zelensky has said many times that he wants to win this war 'with honor'.  I'm guessing that means no intentional killing of civilians.

Ukraine can't win this war without Western support.  And I am convinced that Western support would dry up if Ukraine started bombing major cities in Russia.

I have to say, how many people who are like "show Russia the war is coming to them!" remember, say, OUR reaction to the 9-11 attacks?

You're quoting some of what I said, then grossly misinterpreting it.  So here is what I said:

Note I didn't say bomb random cities - I said target Moscow.  Put a hole in a spire of the Kremlin, detonate a bridge late at night.  But show Russians that the war is coming to them, and that their leader is losing.

Attacking civilians is always, always, always a stupid idea.

Russia has deliberately killed tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians.

I understand what you are saying.  It's a terrible idea.

So, do you think my main point is wrong?  My main point being that simply winning the war and reclaiming Crimea will be sufficient to make Putin look weak?

You direct your post "talking to the people" followed by a misquote from me, and yet you don't understand what I'm saying.  Here you reply to me, yet your reply has no relationship to what I said in my post, adding to the body of evidence you do not know what I'm saying.

The point we're discussing is what is required to make Putin look weak to his country.  I think that Ukraine simply winning the war and pushing Russia out of Crimea is all that's needed to do that, but it seems like you feel more is required.  What am I missing?

[MustacheAndaHalf]

I don't know why you can't understand my posts, but I am clearly focused on you correcting your past false statements about what I said.

Zelensky has said many times that he wants to win this war 'with honor'.  I'm guessing that means no intentional killing of civilians.

You were wrong to claim I said otherwise, but you have not said you were wrong or offered any correction.

Ukraine can't win this war without Western support.  And I am convinced that Western support would dry up if Ukraine started bombing major cities in Russia.

Another example, I did not say to bomb major cities.  You again did not understand my point and have not corrected this or admitted you were wrong.

I have to say, how many people who are like "show Russia the war is coming to them!" remember, say, OUR reaction to the 9-11 attacks?

Attacking civilians is always, always, always a stupid idea.

Russia has deliberately killed tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians.

I understand what you are saying.  It's a terrible idea.

Both of your comments were wrong - you claimed to understand what I was saying, when you clearly do not.  You continued to talk of "attacking civilians", which is not what I posted.  You have not admitted to being wrong or tried to correct your earlier incorrect statements.

[Tyson]

I don't know why you can't understand my posts, but I am clearly focused on you correcting your past false statements about what I said.

Zelensky has said many times that he wants to win this war 'with honor'.  I'm guessing that means no intentional killing of civilians.

You were wrong to claim I said otherwise, but you have not said you were wrong or offered any correction.

Ukraine can't win this war without Western support.  And I am convinced that Western support would dry up if Ukraine started bombing major cities in Russia.

Another example, I did not say to bomb major cities.  You again did not understand my point and have not corrected this or admitted you were wrong.

I have to say, how many people who are like "show Russia the war is coming to them!" remember, say, OUR reaction to the 9-11 attacks?

Attacking civilians is always, always, always a stupid idea.

Russia has deliberately killed tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians.

I understand what you are saying.  It's a terrible idea.

Both of your comments were wrong - you claimed to understand what I was saying, when you clearly do not.  You continued to talk of "attacking civilians", which is not what I posted.  You have not admitted to being wrong or tried to correct your earlier incorrect statements.

First, I didn't say anything about killing thousands of civilians, that was waltworks, not me.  So stop trying to argue against something I never said. 

I think Ukraine should be given permission to target Moscow. 

You did say that you felt that Ukraine should be allowed to target Moscow.  Then I said that targeting a major Russian city is a bad idea.  Well, Moscow is a major Russian city, is it not? 

Re: Killing civilians, well that's pretty much unavoidable if you 'target Moscow'.  How can you not see that?  Even if you try to limit your targets to the military or to major cultural artifacts. 

But, even if you managed to avoid killing any civilians, it's still a bad idea to 'target Moscow' because it runs the risk of galvanizing the Russian populace around Putin.  It also puts western support at risk. 

And all of that is completely unnecessary because Ukraine can simply win the war on the battlefield. 

[Sibley]

Tyson, MustacheAndaHalf, be Elsa and Let It Go. Please.

[Taran Wanderer]

Yes, we come here because the conversation is generally more grown up and has more grace than this.

[Tyson]

Yes, we come here because the conversation is generally more grown up and has more grace than this.

Tyson, MustacheAndaHalf, be Elsa and Let It Go. Please.

Apologies.

I think my posting sometimes comes off as colder and more confrontational than I actually intend for it to be.  I'll try to do better in the future.

[PDXTabs]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

[pecunia]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

[nereo]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Tyson, MustacheAndaHalf, be Elsa and Let It Go. Please.

Sounds more like Dr Strangelove:
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."

A few pages ago I brought something up which has been misquoted repeatedly, and I have been able to correct most of those misinterpretations by quoting my own posts with context.  I will continue to do that.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

The post about "taking the fight to Russia" (1) refers to an earlier post of mine, "show the Russians war is coming to them" (2) taken out of context by skipping the sentence "Put a hole in a spire of the Kremlin, detonate a bridge late at night" (2).  If I was suggesting "intentional killing of civilians" (3), I would have mentioned the busiest time of day for a bridge, and not "late at night" (2).

(1)

I'm mainly talking to the people that want to 'take the fight into Russia'.  It's not needed and likely counter-productive. 

(2)

Note I didn't say bomb random cities - I said target Moscow.  Put a hole in a spire of the Kremlin, detonate a bridge late at night.  But show Russians that the war is coming to them, and that their leader is losing.

(3)

Zelensky has said many times that he wants to win this war 'with honor'.  I'm guessing that means no intentional killing of civilians.

[Dancin'Dog]

Tyson, MustacheAndaHalf, be Elsa and Let It Go. Please.

Sounds more like Dr Strangelove:
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."

A few pages ago I brought something up which has been misquoted repeatedly, and I have been able to correct most of those misinterpretations by quoting my own posts with context.  I will continue to do that.

I understood your orgiginal words and intent.  Although reading through the maze of quotes got messy, I applaud your patience & determination to explain & defend yourself.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Gosar has consistently shown he’s an idiot. He’s still an idiot.

Yes, we come here because the conversation is generally more grown up and has more grace than this.

Interesting sequence of posts.

[pecunia]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

Yeh - But you see - Both US and Canada due to them being democracies have sort of a feed back mechanism where established morals are fed back into government actions and said vile actions then stop.  The Russian government  has more of an open loop control kind of thing.  It has no feedback, i.e. moral correction.  So, it will keep performing these types of actions and others such as what happened at Bucha with no corrective mechanism unless forces from the outside world perform such corrective action.  It could also be considered like one of these hardened criminals that are talked about once in a while.

So - the whatboutism is really kind of weak.  I guess you can compare apples to oranges, but why would you want to?

[bwall]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

So did the Incans; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitma . Every group has their dirty laundry. Let's stay on topic.

 

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Tyson, MustacheAndaHalf, be Elsa and Let It Go. Please.

Sounds more like Dr Strangelove:
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."

A few pages ago I brought something up which has been misquoted repeatedly, and I have been able to correct most of those misinterpretations by quoting my own posts with context.  I will continue to do that.

I understood your orgiginal words and intent.  Although reading through the maze of quotes got messy, I applaud your patience & determination to explain & defend yourself.

Thanks, appreciate that.  Unfortunately I spent time correcting, when it would be more interesting to change my original idea in light of what I've learned.  For example, Ukraine attacked the bridge connecting Russia to Crimea, which I learned is not a war crime, but a "legitimate target" because the bridge has military value to Russia.

It could be interesting to think about Russian targets with military and symbolic value, like the flagship Moskva.  Ukraine claimed to hit it with Neptune class ship destroying missiles.  Russia's version of events is questionable - and soon afterwards Russia retaliated by hitting the Ukranian factory that makes those Neptune class ship destroying missiles.

[PDXTabs]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

Not to get too off topic in Off Topic. But did they? Did the US and Canada forcibly remove/adopt native children that looked a certain way while leaving the ones that looked different?

[Radagast]

Update on the next wave of weapons we're sending to Ukraine. It's big.

50 Bradleys plus 10 TOW missiles per vehicle
100 M113s
55 MRAPs
138 Humvees
18 M109 155mm self-propelled howitzers plus support vehicles
70k rounds of artillery ammo
500 Excalibur GPS-guided artillery shells
1200 artillery-fired mines
36 105mm artillery w/95k rounds
10k 120mm mortar rounds
More GMLRS
Sea Sparrow anti-air missiles
Zuni air to ground rockets
2000 antitank missiles
Small arms, claymore mines, night vision goggles, and various spare parts

https://twitter.com/beverstine/status/1611442805800374296

I was glad to see it, and I hope they make a timely arrival. My opinion is that many past US arms supplies have arrived about 30 days after they were really needed. Also I hope a lot more is in store soon. 500 Bradleys would have been a lot more compelling.

[Radagast]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

This is one of my biggest concerns. It will be a lot easier to reconquer Crimea than to get back all the kidnapped civilians. Ukraine will really need to tighten the screws to get most of them back, and I assume it is not possible to get them all back. Maybe a blockade of the Russian Black Sea Coast, or occupy a few Russian oblasts, they'll need some kind of compelling leverage.

[Sibley]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

Not to get too off topic in Off Topic. But did they? Did the US and Canada forcibly remove/adopt native children that looked a certain way while leaving the ones that looked different?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system
https://www.vox.com/2019/10/14/20913408/us-stole-thousands-of-native-american-children

Do you really doubt the terrible things that humans are capable of?

[LennStar]

Yeh - But you see - Both US and Canada due to them being democracies have sort of a feed back mechanism where established morals are fed back into government actions and said vile actions then stop.  The Russian government  has more of an open loop control kind of thing.  It has no feedback, i.e. moral correction.  So, it will keep performing these types of actions and others such as what happened at Bucha with no corrective mechanism unless forces from the outside world perform such corrective action.  It could also be considered like one of these hardened criminals that are talked about once in a while.

So - the whatboutism is really kind of weak.  I guess you can compare apples to oranges, but why would you want to?

No, Russia has a perfect viable positive feedback loop. Many Russians approve of teaching the Nazis a lesson. Being able to Bucha is a show of strength. As is leveling cities.

[pecunia]

Yeh - But you see - Both US and Canada due to them being democracies have sort of a feed back mechanism where established morals are fed back into government actions and said vile actions then stop.  The Russian government  has more of an open loop control kind of thing.  It has no feedback, i.e. moral correction.  So, it will keep performing these types of actions and others such as what happened at Bucha with no corrective mechanism unless forces from the outside world perform such corrective action.  It could also be considered like one of these hardened criminals that are talked about once in a while.

So - the whatboutism is really kind of weak.  I guess you can compare apples to oranges, but why would you want to?

No, Russia has a perfect viable positive feedback loop. Many Russians approve of teaching the Nazis a lesson. Being able to Bucha is a show of strength. As is leveling cities.

That's not feedback. It's not a correction mechanism.  It's open loop.  I suppose your idea of positive feedback does make sense in an odd sort of way.  It's like their government is in short circuit mode.  They keep killing more and more of their people.  More and more of their industrial capacity is going to the "special military operation."  The statements from their leaders are crazier and crazier.  I sure hope the system burns out before they launch their nukes.

The next time I see those protesters out there at Western Capitals with the signs I will smile and realize the value of negative corrective feedback.  Often they are forcing their governments to adopt basic morality.

[GuitarStv]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

Not to get too off topic in Off Topic. But did they? Did the US and Canada forcibly remove/adopt native children that looked a certain way while leaving the ones that looked different?

Canada planned and intentionally did our best to destroy native culture by forcing an entire generation of children to leave their parents for the majority of the year at schools where they were beaten for speaking their native tongue, sexual abuse was rampant, and negligence/abuse was so high that it caused an awful lot of deaths.  The repercussions of this have been generational and significant for native communities.

But no, we didn't just do this with the whiter looking native kids.  We applied our abuses 'fairly'.

[Travis]

Update on the next wave of weapons we're sending to Ukraine. It's big.

50 Bradleys plus 10 TOW missiles per vehicle
100 M113s
55 MRAPs
138 Humvees
18 M109 155mm self-propelled howitzers plus support vehicles
70k rounds of artillery ammo
500 Excalibur GPS-guided artillery shells
1200 artillery-fired mines
36 105mm artillery w/95k rounds
10k 120mm mortar rounds
More GMLRS
Sea Sparrow anti-air missiles
Zuni air to ground rockets
2000 antitank missiles
Small arms, claymore mines, night vision goggles, and various spare parts

https://twitter.com/beverstine/status/1611442805800374296

I was glad to see it, and I hope they make a timely arrival. My opinion is that many past US arms supplies have arrived about 30 days after they were really needed. Also I hope a lot more is in store soon. 500 Bradleys would have been a lot more compelling.

A single battalion isn't a "game changer," but its more than enough to begin a training program and set the groundwork for a later expansion. Moving a few hundred Brads will not be a simple task and I imagine some time will be needed to inspect and prepare that many vehicles.

[pecunia]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

Not to get too off topic in Off Topic. But did they? Did the US and Canada forcibly remove/adopt native children that looked a certain way while leaving the ones that looked different?

Canada planned and intentionally did our best to destroy native culture by forcing an entire generation of children to leave their parents for the majority of the year at schools where they were beaten for speaking their native tongue, sexual abuse was rampant, and negligence/abuse was so high that it caused an awful lot of deaths.  The repercussions of this have been generational and significant for native communities.

But no, we didn't just do this with the whiter looking native kids.  We applied our abuses 'fairly'.

The thing is,.......the people of Canada will prevent them from doing it again.    Now,.......Russia,...........this mass conscience thing won't apply negative feedback to the government as a corrective action of a past inhumanity.  They just stay evil.

Even a guitar amplifier has negative feedback inside to eliminate unwanted effects, but not the Russian government.

All right enough of that.

[nereo]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

Not to get too off topic in Off Topic. But did they? Did the US and Canada forcibly remove/adopt native children that looked a certain way while leaving the ones that looked different?

Canada planned and intentionally did our best to destroy native culture by forcing an entire generation of children to leave their parents for the majority of the year at schools where they were beaten for speaking their native tongue, sexual abuse was rampant, and negligence/abuse was so high that it caused an awful lot of deaths.  The repercussions of this have been generational and significant for native communities.

But no, we didn't just do this with the whiter looking native kids.  We applied our abuses 'fairly'.

The thing is,.......the people of Canada will prevent them from doing it again.    Now,.......Russia,...........this mass conscience thing won't apply negative feedback to the government as a corrective action of a past inhumanity.  They just stay evil.

Even a guitar amplifier has negative feedback inside to eliminate unwanted effects, but not the Russian government.

All right enough of that.

(Note: I really don’t want to derail this further, so I’m limiting how much I respond)

I brought up.the US & Canada because the strategy of erasing a particular group by co-opting their children is one that has been used by countless countries going back to at least the Romans, including recent acts by democratic countries. I’m routinely shocked at how many people simply don’t know this ever happened.

I’m more pessimistic that Canada (or the US) will prevent future atrocities from happening, in part because of a lengthy and sordid history of doing shitty things to first-nation/native populations, but also because I encounter opinions against these groups on a weekly basis (my work has me interacting with several native groups to manage a shared resource). A common complaint I hear is that they shouldn’t have “special rights” because “they live like the rest of us (modern homes and typical jobs)” and that the only time they “are Indian” is when it being it’s them. There’s a strong sentiment to deny educational systems “on rez” because they are free to choose between the public and reservation systems. In short, there’s still a lot of people that think forced integration is a grand idea (or at least the best solution)

[pecunia]

"Russian authorities continue the forced deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia. Orphans from the occupied territories are often forcibly adopted by Russians, which is a large-scale scheme involving all branches of power in Russia." - Euromaidan: Russia spends €8 mn to select “quality material” for adoption among Ukrainian children: report

From the article:

According to the report, the foster parents must meet ideological criteria, which means that “such actions must completely erase the Ukrainian identity of the deported children and distort the historical memory.”

The forced adoptions are aimed at increasing the share of Russian citizens “of Slavic appearance” as the Kremlin is concerned that over time, the Slavic population of Russia may become a minority.

Yep - History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.  The Adolf guy in charge of Germany about 3 generations back had the same ideas, but with the Aryan thing.  The country of Russia and Mr. Putin are from another age.

As did the US and Canada with respect to the native children in the 20th century.

Not to get too off topic in Off Topic. But did they? Did the US and Canada forcibly remove/adopt native children that looked a certain way while leaving the ones that looked different?

Canada planned and intentionally did our best to destroy native culture by forcing an entire generation of children to leave their parents for the majority of the year at schools where they were beaten for speaking their native tongue, sexual abuse was rampant, and negligence/abuse was so high that it caused an awful lot of deaths.  The repercussions of this have been generational and significant for native communities.

But no, we didn't just do this with the whiter looking native kids.  We applied our abuses 'fairly'.

The thing is,.......the people of Canada will prevent them from doing it again.    Now,.......Russia,...........this mass conscience thing won't apply negative feedback to the government as a corrective action of a past inhumanity.  They just stay evil.

Even a guitar amplifier has negative feedback inside to eliminate unwanted effects, but not the Russian government.

All right enough of that.

(Note: I really don’t want to derail this further, so I’m limiting how much I respond)

I brought up.the US & Canada because the strategy of erasing a particular group by co-opting their children is one that has been used by countless countries going back to at least the Romans, including recent acts by democratic countries. I’m routinely shocked at how many people simply don’t know this ever happened.

I’m more pessimistic that Canada (or the US) will prevent future atrocities from happening, in part because of a lengthy and sordid history of doing shitty things to first-nation/native populations, but also because I encounter opinions against these groups on a weekly basis (my work has me interacting with several native groups to manage a shared resource). A common complaint I hear is that they shouldn’t have “special rights” because “they live like the rest of us (modern homes and typical jobs)” and that the only time they “are Indian” is when it being it’s them. There’s a strong sentiment to deny educational systems “on rez” because they are free to choose between the public and reservation systems. In short, there’s still a lot of people that think forced integration is a grand idea (or at least the best solution)

Jealousy goes a long way.  My last boss was a full blooded Choctaw.  I was a bit jealous of him for a while because our contract firm did not provide health care.  I had to do the Obamacare thing.  It's understandable when it looks like somebody is getting special privileges as an accident of birth.  However, he was a good boss and with his help we all had health care after a bit of time.  His kids are only half Choctaw and I believe they lose dome privileges.

How many people are there out there that are a tiny fraction Cherokee? 

Your worry about "special rights" may fade in time as nature takes its course and people naturally intermarry and the offspring is diluted.   Until then, the law is the law.  Besides, the trend towards "diversity" should be good for at least one generation.

Even in future generations, I hope that the tribes can still somehow maintain their culture, traditions and language.

All, indigenous peoples should be respected.

The Russians don't seem to have that belief.

[pecunia]

The number today is 112,470.  This wasn't a winning number for all those Russians.  Their only winnings may have been to be sent home in a box. It seems such a fantastic amount of death.

[Just Joe]

It is. Perhaps when your nation's history includes stories of millions of its own being slain by the government, perhaps people there don't dwell on it unless it was one of their relatives.

I suspect that Russians (or perhaps rural Russians) have a different relationship with life and death than some of the rest of us. 

The numbers of dead over the past 2-3 years including war and COVID is dizzying too.

[zolotiyeruki]

The number today is 112,470.  This wasn't a winning number for all those Russians.  Their only winnings may have been to be sent home in a box. It seems such a fantastic amount of death.

They may be lucky to get a box.  We've already seen Russian mobile crematoria in Ukraine, and there are a whole lot of Russian bodies lying uncollected in the fields around Bakhmut.

[PDXTabs]

It's understandable when it looks like somebody is getting special privileges as an accident of birth.  However, he was a good boss and with his help we all had health care after a bit of time.  His kids are only half Choctaw and I believe they lose dome privileges.

I guess that I would argue that lots of people get special privileges as an accident of birth. Some people are born stateless and others are born with four passports. Some men in Ukraine are born with Ukrainian citizenship and can't leave during the war while others are born with Ukrainian and Polish citizenship and can (de facto, perhaps not de jure).

All, indigenous peoples should be respected.

The Russians don't seem to have that belief.

I don't want to get too off topic, but I can make an argument that the indigenous groups in eastern Russia were treated with more respect than were the ones in North America. Again, the Russians are taking the Slavic looking babies which while horrific is different than what happened in North America.

[pecunia]

It's understandable when it looks like somebody is getting special privileges as an accident of birth.  However, he was a good boss and with his help we all had health care after a bit of time.  His kids are only half Choctaw and I believe they lose dome privileges.

I guess that I would argue that lots of people get special privileges as an accident of birth. Some people are born stateless and others are born with four passports. Some men in Ukraine are born with Ukrainian citizenship and can't leave during the war while others are born with Ukrainian and Polish citizenship and can (de facto, perhaps not de jure).

All, indigenous peoples should be respected.

The Russians don't seem to have that belief.

I don't want to get too off topic, but I can make an argument that the indigenous groups in eastern Russia were treated with more respect than were the ones in North America. Again, the Russians are taking the Slavic looking babies which while horrific is different than what happened in North America.

Yes - In fact the Russians are giving their minority groups a very good chance to show their patriotism, while denying as great an opportunity to the young men in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

[LennStar]

It's understandable when it looks like somebody is getting special privileges as an accident of birth.  However, he was a good boss and with his help we all had health care after a bit of time.  His kids are only half Choctaw and I believe they lose dome privileges.

I guess that I would argue that lots of people get special privileges as an accident of birth. Some people are born stateless and others are born with four passports. Some men in Ukraine are born with Ukrainian citizenship and can't leave during the war while others are born with Ukrainian and Polish citizenship and can (de facto, perhaps not de jure).

All, indigenous peoples should be respected.

The Russians don't seem to have that belief.

I don't want to get too off topic, but I can make an argument that the indigenous groups in eastern Russia were treated with more respect than were the ones in North America. Again, the Russians are taking the Slavic looking babies which while horrific is different than what happened in North America.

Yes - In fact the Russians are giving their minority groups a very good chance to show their patriotism, while denying as great an opportunity to the young men in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

At least they get to see asphalt roads and have the opportunity to... organize washing machines for their mothers!

[PeteD01]

Germany is about to allow re-export of Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine.
The Leopard 2 MBT is exactly what Ukraine needs and they are plentiful.
That this is happening only after the US decided to field the Abrams MBT in Ukraine is entirely due to political and historic reasons in addition to copious kompromat Russia likely has on many German politicians, especially from the SPD.
In any case, the Abrams MBT is not the system that can easily and effectively be deployed at scale in Ukraine but will do just fine as political cover.
The Leopard 2 MBT is a game changing system that has its origins in the Cold War and was designed for the type of warfare Ukraine is conducting.


https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/europe/germany-leopard-2-tanks-ukraine-announcement-intl/index.html

[LennStar]

Germany is about to allow re-export of Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine.
The Leopard 2 MBT is exactly what Ukraine needs and they are plentiful.
That this is happening only after the US decided to field the Abrams MBT in Ukraine is entirely due to political and historic reasons in addition to copious kompromat Russia likely has on many German politicians, especially from the SPD.

That is a nice spin, but the truth is that until today nobody asked Germany if they could reexport their tanks even though the government already said it would approve it as fast as possible if asked. But Poland only asked today, weeks after they announced they want to, if necessary without approval.

[nereo]

Germany is about to allow re-export of Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine.
The Leopard 2 MBT is exactly what Ukraine needs and they are plentiful.
That this is happening only after the US decided to field the Abrams MBT in Ukraine is entirely due to political and historic reasons in addition to copious kompromat Russia likely has on many German politicians, especially from the SPD.

That is a nice spin, but the truth is that until today nobody asked Germany if they could reexport their tanks even though the government already said it would approve it as fast as possible if asked. But Poland only asked today, weeks after they announced they want to, if necessary without approval.

Weird. News media here has been reporting for weeks about the conversations between Germany and other NATO countries urging Germany to allow export of the leopard 2.

[PeteD01]

Germany is about to allow re-export of Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine.
The Leopard 2 MBT is exactly what Ukraine needs and they are plentiful.
That this is happening only after the US decided to field the Abrams MBT in Ukraine is entirely due to political and historic reasons in addition to copious kompromat Russia likely has on many German politicians, especially from the SPD.

That is a nice spin, but the truth is that until today nobody asked Germany if they could reexport their tanks even though the government already said it would approve it as fast as possible if asked. But Poland only asked today, weeks after they announced they want to, if necessary without approval.

So all the back and forth over weeks was just because Poland forgot to ask for a re-export license in a timely manner?

I think one needs to be German to even begin to understand the notion that a missing formal request could delay delivery of hundreds of tanks to an ongoing war and precipitate weeks of acrimonious international back and forth on the issue.

[Travis]

It's more than just permission. It looks like Germany will start sending its own tanks over as well. Not many, like only 14 are ready to go, but there's close to 100 out there across Europe that are on the table. The rumors of US Abrams tanks going are somewhere between 10 and 50 depending on whose leak you're following.

https://twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1617939980529332230

https://apnews.com/article/249de5c301a9bf83b5f3ac2182076a02

Switzerland also looking to change its stance on allowing the weapons it has sold to others to go to Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/HelloMrBond/status/1617935487091757056

Ukrainian Air Force saying they went to the US and picked the planes that they want from us.

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1617868545731465217

And US intelligence sources concerned that Russia will launch a large-scale offensive as soon as the weather permits.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/24/politics/ukraine-shift-tactics-bakhmut/index.html

[PeteD01]

It's more than just permission. It looks like Germany will start sending its own tanks over as well. Not many, like only 14 are ready to go, but there's close to 100 out there across Europe that are on the table. The rumors of US Abrams tanks going are somewhere between 10 and 50 depending on whose leak you're following.

...

To be fair, the re-export license was always tied to Germany eventually becoming the main provider if the Leopard 2 should remain Ukraine´s system.
For immediate delivery, the re-export license was always the most important thing.
Now what is interesting, and I have not read anything discussing this yet, but the Abrams MBT cannot be immediately deployed and reach full operational capability within the timeframe and at the scale needed.

But the Abrams MBT is still more than just a token to be used domestically but it does allow postponement of the decision which MBT Ukraine will ultimately chose as their MBT once the war is over.
This absolutely could become politically important at some point in the future.

[Telecaster]

That is a nice spin, but the truth is that until today nobody asked Germany if they could reexport their tanks even though the government already said it would approve it as fast as possible if asked. But Poland only asked today, weeks after they announced they want to, if necessary without approval.

That's not true.  The German government said very clearly they weren't going to approve an application, so nobody submitted one.   

[Travis]

It's more than just permission. It looks like Germany will start sending its own tanks over as well. Not many, like only 14 are ready to go, but there's close to 100 out there across Europe that are on the table. The rumors of US Abrams tanks going are somewhere between 10 and 50 depending on whose leak you're following.

...

To be fair, the re-export license was always tied to Germany eventually becoming the main provider if the Leopard 2 should remain Ukraine´s system.
For immediate delivery, the re-export license was always the most important thing.
Now what is interesting, and I have not read anything discussing this yet, but the Abrams MBT cannot immediately deployed and reach full operational capability at the scale needed within the timeframe and at the scale needed.

But the Abrams MBT is still more than just a token to be used domestically but it does allow postponement of the decision which MBT Ukraine will ultimately chose as their MBT once the war is over. This absolutely could become politically important at some point in the future.

Allegedly Biden is sending the tanks against the Pentagon's advice. This could have been to eliminate the alleged excuse of "no Leos without Abrams first."  I don't know if they're pulling from active motorpools or depot, but both it and the Leos will require the establishment of heavy transports, wreckers, fuel trucks, training, and repair facilities. There were also rumors/threats that we'd backfill Leo-sending nations with Abrams which also brings the possibility of Germany losing customers in the long term. Post-war will be interesting to see what Ukraine decides to do. They have options between Leopard, Abrams, K2, or something domestic depending on how long it takes to recapitalize their tank industry.

Edit: From what I'm hearing so far, the Leos may be there in weeks, but the Abrams will take months. There should be a couple speeches/press releases tomorrow.

[pecunia]

I think I read that Canada has 112 of those Leopard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_Canada

This article says 82.  Good number.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/nothing-to-announce-today-trudeau-on-whether-canada-will-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-1.6242318

Who borders them? 

The country is bordered by Alaska (USA) in west, and by 12 US states of the continental United States in south, Canada shares maritime borders with Greenland (an autonomous territory of Denmark) and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, an island which belongs to France.

They should retain one of two of those tanks in case the French invade to take back Quebec.  US has too many problems to invade right now.

Maybe people could set up a GoFundMe to pay back the Canadian taxpayers.

[TomTX]

That is a nice spin, but the truth is that until today nobody asked Germany if they could reexport their tanks even though the government already said it would approve it as fast as possible if asked. But Poland only asked today, weeks after they announced they want to, if necessary without approval.

That's not true.  The German government said very clearly they weren't going to approve an application, so nobody submitted one.

In the world of politics, you often need to make the deal happen before you submit the paperwork.

[dang1]

I think I read that Canada has 112 of those Leopard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_Canada

This article says 82.  Good number.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/nothing-to-announce-today-trudeau-on-whether-canada-will-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-1.6242318

Who borders them? 

The country is bordered by Alaska (USA) in west, and by 12 US states of the continental United States in south, Canada shares maritime borders with Greenland (an autonomous territory of Denmark) and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, an island which belongs to France.

They should retain one of two of those tanks in case the French invade to take back Quebec.  US has too many problems to invade right now.

Maybe people could set up a GoFundMe to pay back the Canadian taxpayers.

"Canada’s tank fleet is composed of over 80 Leopard 2s  — all of which were purchased in 2007 for deployment in Afghanistan" https://nationalpost.com/opinion/is-canada-not-sending-its-tanks-to-ukraine-because-theyre-broken

[pecunia]

I think I read that Canada has 112 of those Leopard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_Canada

This article says 82.  Good number.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/nothing-to-announce-today-trudeau-on-whether-canada-will-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-1.6242318

Who borders them? 

The country is bordered by Alaska (USA) in west, and by 12 US states of the continental United States in south, Canada shares maritime borders with Greenland (an autonomous territory of Denmark) and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, an island which belongs to France.

They should retain one of two of those tanks in case the French invade to take back Quebec.  US has too many problems to invade right now.

Maybe people could set up a GoFundMe to pay back the Canadian taxpayers.

"Canada’s tank fleet is composed of over 80 Leopard 2s  — all of which were purchased in 2007 for deployment in Afghanistan" https://nationalpost.com/opinion/is-canada-not-sending-its-tanks-to-ukraine-because-theyre-broken

I used to own two Beetles.  One ran and the other was for parts.  It seems as though, if nothing else, these tanks could be an excellent source of parts.  Shipping them off may be almost as cheap as decommissioning them.

[nereo]

From the AP:

The German government announced Wednesday plans to deliver 14 of the country’s Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine and allow other countries to send theirs, ending months of debate among Western allies and potentially helping to shift the balance on the battlefield.


The Biden administration is also due to announce Wednesday that it will send the main U.S. battle tank, the M1 Abrams, though probably not until at least the fall, a senior U.S. official with knowledge of the situation said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. Washington is expected to send at least 30.


In Europe, the goal is to quickly assemble two Leopard 2 tank battalions — equivalent at least about 80 tanks — for Ukraine, the German government said in a statement. As a first step, Germany will provide a company of 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks from Bundeswehr stocks. Other European allies will also provide tanks.