Author Topic: UFO News  (Read 8790 times)

Luke Warm

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2019, 12:57:24 PM »
i like that goldfish analogy mentioned above. with that said, maybe there are other life forms out there but on their own they can't travel the distances necessary to find us. however maybe there has always been a god like being that can move us goldfish between bowls. maybe that happens when we've evolved enough to not kill any new life form we see.

big_owl

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2019, 01:00:42 PM »
It is a puzzle why there are no more visible alien civilizations. One is that to get to level of intelligence where can observe from a distance, is either extremely rare, or only occurs for a relatively brief period of time. So that yes we have been looking for alien signatures (radio, unusual light patterns for stars) but really for how long? 30 years? That is so brief. Our civilization may be gone in 100, 500, maybe a thousand years once we burn through our readily available fuel sources, and then fall back to a preindustrial age. Civilizations have to transition from expansion based on things like new land, nonrenewal fuel, to some other equilibrium to survive. As we have seen on our own planet, we have not been successful so far in doing that. So maybe there was an intelligent civilization comparable to our own out there. But it was 200 thousand, or 50 thousand, or 10 thousand years ago and lasted only a couple hundred years? 

It's been way less than 30 years. The first exoplanets were discovered in 1992 (27 years) but these were really big planets orbiting a really tiny pulsar.  We **still** lack the capability to observe any exoplanets directly; rather their detection is watching the effect they have on orbits and the periodic dimming of stars.  The first systematic, large(ish) scale attempt to find planets was with Kepler, which launched way back in 2009.  The number of planets 'discovered' in 2018 alone is greater than all the known planets from before 2010.

As for why we've not detected anything... well for starters we lack the capability to directly view any of these planets we've discovered. We've listened for radio waves but this assumes that 1) alien civiliations are using said frequencies and 2) they are powerful enough to be detected lightyears away on earth.  Both seem uncertain assumptions. As a civilzation, we've only been using radio waves for communication for  some 150 years; I'm not even convinced that we won't be using something completely different in 50 years, abandoning our current communications paradigm entirely.

Seems to me like any more advanced communications method, whatever it is, will be more efficient with less energy waste as technology advances.  Maybe there's some goldilocks period (like the radio era) where you could theoretically detect an alien civilization but then they quickly progress to something much more efficient and appear silent to the outside universe.  At that point they'd have to want to be discovered and dedicate massive resources to advertising their presence (no some stupid gold LP doesn't count).  But then we get back to the distances and times involved and it becomes a "so what" if you detect a civilization 2M light years away...neither of you is ever going to be able to reach each other anyway. 

GuitarStv

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2019, 01:03:17 PM »
i like that goldfish analogy mentioned above. with that said, maybe there are other life forms out there but on their own they can't travel the distances necessary to find us. however maybe there has always been a god like being that can move us goldfish between bowls. maybe that happens when we've evolved enough to not kill any new life form we see.

My experience with gold fish would lead me to believe that mankind is much more likely to see a large toilet bowl than another planet.  :P

sherr

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2019, 01:09:05 PM »
Our civilization may be gone in 100, 500, maybe a thousand years once we burn through our readily available fuel sources, and then fall back to a preindustrial age. Civilizations have to transition from expansion based on things like new land, nonrenewal fuel, to some other equilibrium to survive. As we have seen on our own planet, we have not been successful so far in doing that. So maybe there was an intelligent civilization comparable to our own out there. But it was 200 thousand, or 50 thousand, or 10 thousand years ago and lasted only a couple hundred years? 

I find this to be incredibly unlikely. We have the capability to transition to a renewable-fuel society today, just not the will. The will will come once people start feeling the pain. And yes it will get hotter and it'll be much more expensive and difficult to deal with the repercussions the longer we wait, but it will happen and Civilization will continue.

I think the only real possibility that Civilization will collapse is a nuclear world war. It's certainly a possibility, but I don't see any reason to believe that that's inevitable.

Travis

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2019, 01:24:30 PM »
The Drake Equation narrows the window considerably on whether we'll ever encounter life out there.  Take the size of just our galaxy, the rate at which stars/planets are created/destroyed, the number of stars that have planets, the number of planets that are in the right location to support life, the number of those planets that actually have life, the number of those that have sentient humanoid life, the number of those that are space-capable or can talk across space, and the number of those existing within the time/space window that we can detect them.  The equation is mostly hypothetical since we don't have actual number to apply to those questions, but it does offer a narrow window of possibilities since so many factors are required to be met. The equation has been debated for 50 years with answers ranging from as many as 100,000 to as few as none.  I've heard astronomers state it would be the discovery of the millennia just to find extraterrestrial bacteria. 

I believe Hawking said something like "either we're alone, or we're not. Either answer is profound and terrifying." He also warned that any alien life capable of physically reaching us would be technologically advanced beyond our comprehension and we'd be no better off than the Native Americans dealing with Columbus.

partgypsy

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2019, 01:38:58 PM »
I don't know the answer but here are some theories, one being called "the great filter"

https://futurism.com/theories-intelligent-life-fermi-paradox
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 01:43:05 PM by partgypsy »

nereo

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2019, 01:54:53 PM »
I believe Hawking said something like "either we're alone, or we're not. Either answer is profound and terrifying." He also warned that any alien life capable of physically reaching us would be technologically advanced beyond our comprehension and we'd be no better off than the Native Americans dealing with Columbus.

...just can't let this go.  The Native Americans weren't unable to deal with the European explorers.  It was the European pathogens that their immune systems couldn't handle.  The whole common narrative that Europeans were so technologically advanced during the 'age of exploration' that the natives stood no chance is wrong.  Just sayin'.

... but yeah.  Any life that could reach our solar system is operating on parameters so distant from our own that we would struggle even to relate.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2019, 06:37:23 PM »
If another intelligent alien civilization exists, it will almost certainly expand rapidly into the rest of the universe. Even if 99.999% of the individuals don't want to leave their home world, the remaining 0.001% that does will expand and multiply. But it's reasonably likely humans are the only intelligent life in the observable universe.

You're assuming a lot with this post.

- Aliens have the human tendency to multiply to fill (and then exceed) any natural constraints
- Aliens have any interest in leaving their planet
- It's possible to meaningfully compare human intelligence with alien intelligence
- Alien life is possible for us to identify

Bad assumptions lead to poor results.  As far as aliens go, we don't have remotely enough evidence (of anything) to be able to draw any kinds of conclusions.
"Multiplying and filling" is not merely a human tendency; it's one intrinsic to all life. Anything that didn't bother to maximally create copies of itself in its environment went extinct long ago. Whatever life emerges anywhere else will be subject to the same competitive constraint to replicate or die. The one credible counter-argument to this assertion I have come across is this and you are right that we don't know if that is highly likely outcome in the evolution of civilizations. I suspect not, given that we are very far from that state now and that we are not so technologically far from being able to fill the galaxy with von Neumann probes. Given that the singleton is a very specific outcome that must be absolute in its realization to prevent galactic colonization, I favor the view that it is rather unlikely.

As far as alien life being comparable to humans, see the evolutionary pressure argument above why to expect this, though I agree that argument is not sufficient. There are a couple of views I'm familiar with on the question of general AI (which would encompass all possible brain-states of naturally evolved creatures as well). One view is the parameter space of possible minds is vast and we have no idea what we could get (Bostrom, Yudkowsky, etc.); another is favored by David Deutsche who argues that the very essence of general AI (emphasis on general!) is that it would constrain the parameter space of minds since general intelligence has a sort of computational universality that would prevent the highly myopic minds envisioned by those who suggest things like wireheading or tiling-the-universe-with-paperclips as plausible outcomes. I'm undecided on this question but really it doesn't matter who is right as long as some members of the alien race are net-replicators.

On the question of identifying alien life, if we constrain our imaginations to our current understanding of physics, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics suggests that this will not be the case (assuming the replication-is-inevitable hypothesis is also correct). There is just no way to hide the heat-correlates of an energy-intensive galactic civilization that we know of.

The result is the view that non-expanding technological society would need either an absolutely powerful top-down enforcement of this rule and/or be (unchangeably!) in the mind parameter-space such that all of its members never elect to become replicators.

It is a puzzle why there are no more visible alien civilizations. One is that to get to level of intelligence where can observe from a distance, is either extremely rare, or only occurs for a relatively brief period of time. So that yes we have been looking for alien signatures (radio, unusual light patterns for stars) but really for how long? 30 years? That is so brief. Our civilization may be gone in 100, 500, maybe a thousand years once we burn through our readily available fuel sources, and then fall back to a preindustrial age. Civilizations have to transition from expansion based on things like new land, nonrenewal fuel, to some other equilibrium to survive. As we have seen on our own planet, we have not been successful so far in doing that. So maybe there was an intelligent civilization comparable to our own out there. But it was 200 thousand, or 50 thousand, or 10 thousand years ago and lasted only a couple hundred years? 

It's been way less than 30 years. The first exoplanets were discovered in 1992 (27 years) but these were really big planets orbiting a really tiny pulsar.  We **still** lack the capability to observe any exoplanets directly; rather their detection is watching the effect they have on orbits and the periodic dimming of stars.  The first systematic, large(ish) scale attempt to find planets was with Kepler, which launched way back in 2009.  The number of planets 'discovered' in 2018 alone is greater than all the known planets from before 2010.

As for why we've not detected anything... well for starters we lack the capability to directly view any of these planets we've discovered. We've listened for radio waves but this assumes that 1) alien civiliations are using said frequencies and 2) they are powerful enough to be detected lightyears away on earth.  Both seem uncertain assumptions. As a civilzation, we've only been using radio waves for communication for  some 150 years; I'm not even convinced that we won't be using something completely different in 50 years, abandoning our current communications paradigm entirely.

Seems to me like any more advanced communications method, whatever it is, will be more efficient with less energy waste as technology advances.  Maybe there's some goldilocks period (like the radio era) where you could theoretically detect an alien civilization but then they quickly progress to something much more efficient and appear silent to the outside universe.  At that point they'd have to want to be discovered and dedicate massive resources to advertising their presence (no some stupid gold LP doesn't count).  But then we get back to the distances and times involved and it becomes a "so what" if you detect a civilization 2M light years away...neither of you is ever going to be able to reach each other anyway. 
The argument against this line of thinking is that for any planet and gravity well, it will almost certainly be physically possible to escape and colonize the galaxy. If a civilization doesn't then the common reasons why may constitute "Great Filters" but the laws of physics don't leave any other excuses. For the reasons given above, even a fringe desire to leave and expand will inevitably turn into (at a minimum) a galactic-level colonization event for those who choose to go and succeed.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 10:57:31 PM by lost_in_the_endless_aisle »

GuitarStv

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2019, 07:24:56 AM »
If another intelligent alien civilization exists, it will almost certainly expand rapidly into the rest of the universe. Even if 99.999% of the individuals don't want to leave their home world, the remaining 0.001% that does will expand and multiply. But it's reasonably likely humans are the only intelligent life in the observable universe.

You're assuming a lot with this post.

- Aliens have the human tendency to multiply to fill (and then exceed) any natural constraints
- Aliens have any interest in leaving their planet
- It's possible to meaningfully compare human intelligence with alien intelligence
- Alien life is possible for us to identify

Bad assumptions lead to poor results.  As far as aliens go, we don't have remotely enough evidence (of anything) to be able to draw any kinds of conclusions.
"Multiplying and filling" is not merely a human tendency; it's one intrinsic to all life. Anything that didn't bother to maximally create copies of itself in its environment went extinct long ago. Whatever life emerges anywhere else will be subject to the same competitive constraint to replicate or die. The one credible counter-argument to this assertion I have come across is this and you are right that we don't know if that is highly likely outcome in the evolution of civilizations. I suspect not, given that we are very far from that state now and that we are not so technologically far from being able to fill the galaxy with von Neumann probes. Given that the singleton is a very specific outcome that must be absolute in its realization to prevent galactic colonization, I favor the view that it is rather unlikely.

I agree with you that most life we know on Earth tends to multiply to fill natural constraints.  Humans are the only life that tends to multiply and then exceed those natural constraints though that hasn't already wiped itself out.  That creates in us a need to abandon our world and seek life elsewhere.  A form of life that lives within natural constraints would not have this same need, and thus not be driven to explore space.

On the question of identifying alien life, if we constrain our imaginations to our current understanding of physics, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics suggests that this will not be the case (assuming the replication-is-inevitable hypothesis is also correct). There is just no way to hide the heat-correlates of an energy-intensive galactic civilization that we know of.

Again, you're making a lot of assumptions here.

Humans don't even have a good working definition of life.  Is fire alive?  It grows, metabolizes, excretes waste, goes through many stages of change, and finally dies.  Why aren't viruses alive?  Given that we can't define what we're looking for, what makes you think we'll know it when we find it?

What if a creature has an extremely slow metabolism?  It moves slower than a glacier, in inches every thousand years.  It reproduces every hundred million years or so.  How would we identify and recognize such a creature?

You're assuming that energy usage is in a form that we know.  You're also assuming that energy use is an indicator of intelligence.  So many assumptions. . .


The result is the view that non-expanding technological society would need either an absolutely powerful top-down enforcement of this rule and/or be (unchangeably!) in the mind parameter-space such that all of its members never elect to become replicators.

Now you're making assumptions about the organization of an (apparently authoritarian) alien society.  But we don't even know that intelligent life on other worlds would organize into a society.  Humans only do that because we're evolved from pack animals (apes).



So . . . many . . . assumptions.

nereo

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2019, 07:47:49 AM »
As a biologist I need to chime in and point out that not all forms of life on Earth are predisposed to "multiply and fill" their available niche.  Many organisms have environmental feedback mechanisms that reduce or halt growth and reproduction when a resource begins to become limiting. As noted, humans and some other organisms do not have such biological constraints. 

Yet even within human society we seem to be hitting an inflection point, where wealthy societies are (by and large) not reproducing faster than replacement (i.e. the birthrate for most countries in the G20 are slowing, and many are at or below the level necessary to maintain the same population without immigration).  Countries like Canada, Japan, the USA, Germany, Spain, UK etc are all at or under this threshold already.

 Given the economic expansion we've witnessed in the last 50 years and its negative correlation on birthrates, one could imagine that Earth will hit a maximum population number sometime in the next half-century, and then (possibly) slowly decline in the 2100s.  In fact the most effective way of stopping global population grwoth (if that was our goal) very well could be to raise the income standards of the the several dozen mostly African and Asian countries where birthrates are still >>3/woman.


It's entirely conjecture whether ET lifeforms would share our human train of "multiply and fill".

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2019, 06:52:58 PM »
If another intelligent alien civilization exists, it will almost certainly expand rapidly into the rest of the universe. Even if 99.999% of the individuals don't want to leave their home world, the remaining 0.001% that does will expand and multiply. But it's reasonably likely humans are the only intelligent life in the observable universe.

You're assuming a lot with this post.

- Aliens have the human tendency to multiply to fill (and then exceed) any natural constraints
- Aliens have any interest in leaving their planet
- It's possible to meaningfully compare human intelligence with alien intelligence
- Alien life is possible for us to identify

Bad assumptions lead to poor results.  As far as aliens go, we don't have remotely enough evidence (of anything) to be able to draw any kinds of conclusions.
"Multiplying and filling" is not merely a human tendency; it's one intrinsic to all life. Anything that didn't bother to maximally create copies of itself in its environment went extinct long ago. Whatever life emerges anywhere else will be subject to the same competitive constraint to replicate or die. The one credible counter-argument to this assertion I have come across is this and you are right that we don't know if that is highly likely outcome in the evolution of civilizations. I suspect not, given that we are very far from that state now and that we are not so technologically far from being able to fill the galaxy with von Neumann probes. Given that the singleton is a very specific outcome that must be absolute in its realization to prevent galactic colonization, I favor the view that it is rather unlikely.

I agree with you that most life we know on Earth tends to multiply to fill natural constraints.  Humans are the only life that tends to multiply and then exceed those natural constraints though that hasn't already wiped itself out.  That creates in us a need to abandon our world and seek life elsewhere.  A form of life that lives within natural constraints would not have this same need, and thus not be driven to explore space.
Humans do not exceed natural constraints because humans are "universal explainers" for which the only natural constraints are the laws of physics. Regarding your hypothetical form of life, that sounds as if it is essentially the singleton possibility I pointed out: a civilization where any stray desire by an individual that runs counter to the civilization's goal of complete stasis is everywhere and always suppressed. I agree it is a possibility but what I find less plausible is that such a state could be eternally stable.

On the question of identifying alien life, if we constrain our imaginations to our current understanding of physics, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics suggests that this will not be the case (assuming the replication-is-inevitable hypothesis is also correct). There is just no way to hide the heat-correlates of an energy-intensive galactic civilization that we know of.

Again, you're making a lot of assumptions here.

Humans don't even have a good working definition of life.  Is fire alive?  It grows, metabolizes, excretes waste, goes through many stages of change, and finally dies.  Why aren't viruses alive?  Given that we can't define what we're looking for, what makes you think we'll know it when we find it?

What if a creature has an extremely slow metabolism?  It moves slower than a glacier, in inches every thousand years.  It reproduces every hundred million years or so.  How would we identify and recognize such a creature?

You're assuming that energy usage is in a form that we know.  You're also assuming that energy use is an indicator of intelligence.  So many assumptions. . .
Well, I'm a bit of a panpsychist on Tuesdays and Thursdays so I agree that a totally satisfactory definition of "life"--and our ability to clearly identify subjects of experience--are difficult tasks.

Of course, we could sit here all day thinking up possible creatures that would confound our abilities to recognize them as such, but then I would find it interesting that they would have exotic qualities of precisely the sort that make them difficult to recognize (yes, I know about the Dark Forest hypothesis which would be an argument for why this might be the case). Regardless, our best estimates and uncertainty of parameters within the Fermi Equation suggest the odds of another civilization existing anywhere in our proximity is not particularly high, so going to extraordinary lengths to stay hidden seems pointless given our best current knowledge.

On the other assumptions, yes, I pointed out that my commentary was based on our present understanding of physics. If we want to imagine what our future knowledge in physics will or won't allow, we are going to be here a while. Maybe the neutral chi zeptino interacts with the axion malaka field to produce hapson excitations in the air chrysalis, and the aliens have all uploaded their minds to its phase-space?

The result is the view that non-expanding technological society would need either an absolutely powerful top-down enforcement of this rule and/or be (unchangeably!) in the mind parameter-space such that all of its members never elect to become replicators.

Now you're making assumptions about the organization of an (apparently authoritarian) alien society.  But we don't even know that intelligent life on other worlds would organize into a society.  Humans only do that because we're evolved from pack animals (apes).



So . . . many . . . assumptions.
I'm not making an assumption here; rather, I'm pointing out the sort of features a non-expanding civilization would necessarily have to maintain its stasis. The critical feature is eternal stasis, which could be achieved either via top-down or bottom-up mechanisms.

As a biologist I need to chime in and point out that not all forms of life on Earth are predisposed to "multiply and fill" their available niche.  Many organisms have environmental feedback mechanisms that reduce or halt growth and reproduction when a resource begins to become limiting. As noted, humans and some other organisms do not have such biological constraints. 

Yet even within human society we seem to be hitting an inflection point, where wealthy societies are (by and large) not reproducing faster than replacement (i.e. the birthrate for most countries in the G20 are slowing, and many are at or below the level necessary to maintain the same population without immigration).  Countries like Canada, Japan, the USA, Germany, Spain, UK etc are all at or under this threshold already.

 Given the economic expansion we've witnessed in the last 50 years and its negative correlation on birthrates, one could imagine that Earth will hit a maximum population number sometime in the next half-century, and then (possibly) slowly decline in the 2100s.  In fact the most effective way of stopping global population grwoth (if that was our goal) very well could be to raise the income standards of the the several dozen mostly African and Asian countries where birthrates are still >>3/woman.


It's entirely conjecture whether ET lifeforms would share our human train of "multiply and fill".
All it takes is one sub-group to maintain a high fertility rate and it doesn't matter what most of rest of the world does. Maybe everyone will be Amish in 200 years. There are some reasons to doubt this in the specific case of the Amish as pointed out in that analysis (and 200 year forecasts are silly)--but then pick any other possible sub-group that might counter the overall trend of declining global birth-rates, and maybe they will populate the world.

Re: feedback mechanisms, yes, some bacteria will actively prevent overpopulating a limited volume through such mechanisms. I would suggest this presents just a modest correction to the assertion that all life on earth maximally replicates. For humans, the feedback mechanism is not biological or genetic (at least directly); it has much more to do with what people believe and desire. As alluded to in the Amish example, some sub-groups desire different things which give rise to different birth rates. An ideology that results in higher birth-rates will, in the long run, replace any that favors lower ones. All that is required is enough variation in the society with respect to ideology that sub-groups with a more aggressive replication-goal are likely to exist. A society without (expressed) ideological variation brings us back to the singleton as a possible preventative measure to exponential replication and expansion.

nereo

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2019, 04:46:39 AM »

All it takes is one sub-group to maintain a high fertility rate and it doesn't matter what most of rest of the world does.

Actually... no, it does not just take one sub-group to maintain high fertility - at lest not when the species in question has low fertility rates in general, like humans.  In the end its the entire birth rate of the entire population that matters (it's an entirely different thing when you're talking about species that can produce dozens if not thousands of viable offspring per large female).  Humans max out around 6 or so.  Yes, you can have individual women who birth more children, but not at across even a modest-sized community.  Meanwhlie much of the developed world is heading towards sub 2.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2019, 07:17:06 PM »

All it takes is one sub-group to maintain a high fertility rate and it doesn't matter what most of rest of the world does.

Actually... no, it does not just take one sub-group to maintain high fertility - at lest not when the species in question has low fertility rates in general, like humans.  In the end its the entire birth rate of the entire population that matters (it's an entirely different thing when you're talking about species that can produce dozens if not thousands of viable offspring per large female).  Humans max out around 6 or so.  Yes, you can have individual women who birth more children, but not at across even a modest-sized community.  Meanwhlie much of the developed world is heading towards sub 2.
Well my specific example are the Amish, of which there are >300K in the US, with a current doubling time of 20-25 years (did you read the linked article?). I was not suggesting a single Octomom would undo the impact of population-wide sub-replacement birth rates, though a single group with an initially modest size could, given a long, sustained period of high fertility.

nereo

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2019, 05:48:31 AM »

All it takes is one sub-group to maintain a high fertility rate and it doesn't matter what most of rest of the world does.

Actually... no, it does not just take one sub-group to maintain high fertility - at lest not when the species in question has low fertility rates in general, like humans.  In the end its the entire birth rate of the entire population that matters (it's an entirely different thing when you're talking about species that can produce dozens if not thousands of viable offspring per large female).  Humans max out around 6 or so.  Yes, you can have individual women who birth more children, but not at across even a modest-sized community.  Meanwhlie much of the developed world is heading towards sub 2.
Well my specific example are the Amish, of which there are >300K in the US, with a current doubling time of 20-25 years (did you read the linked article?). I was not suggesting a single Octomom would undo the impact of population-wide sub-replacement birth rates, though a single group with an initially modest size could, given a long, sustained period of high fertility.
ah... I see what you are trying to say.  However, you are confusing how a sub-group with a high fertility rate (particularly when it is a trace minority of the overall population) can drastically increase it's proportion within the broader population (true) with how it can substantially change the birth rate of the entire population (false). 

To use your example from above, the Amish have increased their relative proportion within the US, even as the overall birthrate here has plummeted.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2019, 06:09:32 PM »

All it takes is one sub-group to maintain a high fertility rate and it doesn't matter what most of rest of the world does.

Actually... no, it does not just take one sub-group to maintain high fertility - at lest not when the species in question has low fertility rates in general, like humans.  In the end its the entire birth rate of the entire population that matters (it's an entirely different thing when you're talking about species that can produce dozens if not thousands of viable offspring per large female).  Humans max out around 6 or so.  Yes, you can have individual women who birth more children, but not at across even a modest-sized community.  Meanwhlie much of the developed world is heading towards sub 2.
Well my specific example are the Amish, of which there are >300K in the US, with a current doubling time of 20-25 years (did you read the linked article?). I was not suggesting a single Octomom would undo the impact of population-wide sub-replacement birth rates, though a single group with an initially modest size could, given a long, sustained period of high fertility.
ah... I see what you are trying to say.  However, you are confusing how a sub-group with a high fertility rate (particularly when it is a trace minority of the overall population) can drastically increase it's proportion within the broader population (true) with how it can substantially change the birth rate of the entire population (false). 

To use your example from above, the Amish have increased their relative proportion within the US, even as the overall birthrate here has plummeted.
Yes, I think you understand what I'm getting at. Now imagine (even though the linked article provided specific reasons not to necessarily believe this) that the Amish maintained their high fertility rate with a ~25 year doubling period. Currently, the Amish are ~1/30,000 of global population, so their subgroup fertility has very low weight in the overall global average. If the non-Amish global population stagnates/declines and the cultural and economic motivations behind Amish fertility persist, they will eventually dominate the global average. If the Amish don't do it, there are thousands of other subgroups that have or could develop an affinity for high fertility. It only takes one group with sustained demographics to eventually counteract reduced fertility in the rest of the world.

nereo

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2019, 06:56:14 PM »

All it takes is one sub-group to maintain a high fertility rate and it doesn't matter what most of rest of the world does.

Actually... no, it does not just take one sub-group to maintain high fertility - at lest not when the species in question has low fertility rates in general, like humans.  In the end its the entire birth rate of the entire population that matters (it's an entirely different thing when you're talking about species that can produce dozens if not thousands of viable offspring per large female).  Humans max out around 6 or so.  Yes, you can have individual women who birth more children, but not at across even a modest-sized community.  Meanwhlie much of the developed world is heading towards sub 2.
Well my specific example are the Amish, of which there are >300K in the US, with a current doubling time of 20-25 years (did you read the linked article?). I was not suggesting a single Octomom would undo the impact of population-wide sub-replacement birth rates, though a single group with an initially modest size could, given a long, sustained period of high fertility.
ah... I see what you are trying to say.  However, you are confusing how a sub-group with a high fertility rate (particularly when it is a trace minority of the overall population) can drastically increase it's proportion within the broader population (true) with how it can substantially change the birth rate of the entire population (false). 

To use your example from above, the Amish have increased their relative proportion within the US, even as the overall birthrate here has plummeted.
Yes, I think you understand what I'm getting at. Now imagine (even though the linked article provided specific reasons not to necessarily believe this) that the Amish maintained their high fertility rate with a ~25 year doubling period. Currently, the Amish are ~1/30,000 of global population, so their subgroup fertility has very low weight in the overall global average. If the non-Amish global population stagnates/declines and the cultural and economic motivations behind Amish fertility persist, they will eventually dominate the global average. If the Amish don't do it, there are thousands of other subgroups that have or could develop an affinity for high fertility. It only takes one group with sustained demographics to eventually counteract reduced fertility in the rest of the world.

Right, if you extrapolate the current Amish fertility rate and assume few will leave the fold, they will make up the largest group of people in just a century or two.  And therein lies the problem.  Sub-populations can have high fertility rates but those rarely - if ever - hold as they become larger.  Consider American Catholics a hundred years ago or Mormons 30 years ago - both groups had sky-high fertility rates relative to the total population but tapered off as these groups got larger and more established.  It's actually a well known and studied phenomenon both in social (human) science and in population biology. Some of it is due to increased attrition rates (many will 'leave the fold') but there seems to be an even stronger force at work where having lots of children simply no longer is a core focus of the population, and there's a lot of debate about what that mechanism(s) actually is.  Regardless, this is why they don't eventually counteract reduced fertility in the rest of the world - as sub-groups grow their fertility rate almost universally drops.

Milkshake

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2019, 12:11:23 PM »
For anyone who was reading the Remembrance of Earth's Past series by Liu Cixin mentioned earlier upthread (Three Body Problem, etc), they published a 4th book in 2019 called The Redemption of Time. Written by a fanfiction writer, it was approved by Liu to be published as an extension of the series.

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2019, 12:50:58 PM »
sweet. i'm about 40 pages from the end of the last book.

GuitarStv

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2019, 12:57:27 PM »
My hold just came in our library, I'm going to start the 3 body problem tonight.

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2019, 01:04:19 PM »
sweet. i'm about 40 pages from the end of the last book.

Did third book live up to your expectations?

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2019, 02:01:29 PM »
sweet. i'm about 40 pages from the end of the last book.

Did third book live up to your expectations?

unless it goes to shit in the next 40 pages. the trilogy has been a great summer read.

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2019, 02:32:15 PM »
I just checked Overdrive for the Three-Body Problem. The e-book has a 10 week wait, and the audio book has a 7 week wait.

Main library has 7 copies with 2 people waiting. That's much better. I look forward to reading it.

Luke Warm

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2019, 09:35:54 AM »
i just started a book about area 51. i want to believe.

erutio

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2019, 09:58:18 AM »
After @big_owl recommended the book upthread, I put it on hold at my local library, starting at around #45 on the waitlist.  After months, finally got my turn, and I checked it out and read the entire book over the weekend. 
I have to say, after the rave reviews expressed here, I was a little disappointed.  I am usually a Sci-fi fan.  I am a huge science & space nerd and an engineer, yet I found the book too technical.  I am chinese-american, yet I had trouble relating to the chinese cultural references and found all the chinese names hard to follow.  I knew not to expect a space-marines type sci fi book, but I didn't find the ideas in the story that thought provoking or novel.
I have the 2nd book on hold now, but am debating whether or not to even check it out. 
I guess I am just offering my review as a counter-balance to the other opinions expressed.

big_owl

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2019, 11:34:00 AM »
After @big_owl recommended the book upthread, I put it on hold at my local library, starting at around #45 on the waitlist.  After months, finally got my turn, and I checked it out and read the entire book over the weekend. 
I have to say, after the rave reviews expressed here, I was a little disappointed.  I am usually a Sci-fi fan.  I am a huge science & space nerd and an engineer, yet I found the book too technical.  I am chinese-american, yet I had trouble relating to the chinese cultural references and found all the chinese names hard to follow.  I knew not to expect a space-marines type sci fi book, but I didn't find the ideas in the story that thought provoking or novel.
I have the 2nd book on hold now, but am debating whether or not to even check it out. 
I guess I am just offering my review as a counter-balance to the other opinions expressed.

Fwiw, the first book is definitely the toughest read.  I almost gave up a few times.  Second and third were much more interesting, at least for me.

Eta, it doesn't get any less technical though, so if that's not your thing then you might want to cut bait.  I still think it's worth reading just for The Singer and 2D sheets of paper... A wild conclusion.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 11:45:28 AM by big_owl »

partgypsy

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2019, 11:42:25 AM »

Luke Warm

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2019, 01:20:19 PM »
After @big_owl recommended the book upthread, I put it on hold at my local library, starting at around #45 on the waitlist.  After months, finally got my turn, and I checked it out and read the entire book over the weekend. 
I have to say, after the rave reviews expressed here, I was a little disappointed.  I am usually a Sci-fi fan.  I am a huge science & space nerd and an engineer, yet I found the book too technical.  I am chinese-american, yet I had trouble relating to the chinese cultural references and found all the chinese names hard to follow.  I knew not to expect a space-marines type sci fi book, but I didn't find the ideas in the story that thought provoking or novel.
I have the 2nd book on hold now, but am debating whether or not to even check it out. 
I guess I am just offering my review as a counter-balance to the other opinions expressed.
i was trying to explain the trilogy to my girlfriend and i really couldn't do it. so much stuff happens and it's all so wild. i had to read the wikipedia page just to refresh my understanding. i'm not real sure what the first part of book 3 had to do with the rest of the story?
Fwiw, the first book is definitely the toughest read.  I almost gave up a few times.  Second and third were much more interesting, at least for me.

Eta, it doesn't get any less technical though, so if that's not your thing then you might want to cut bait.  I still think it's worth reading just for The Singer and 2D sheets of paper... A wild conclusion.

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2019, 01:23:37 PM »
i just started a book about area 51. i want to believe.

What's the book? I also want to believe.

Luke Warm

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2019, 02:28:39 PM »
i just started a book about area 51. i want to believe.

What's the book? I also want to believe.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316202304/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
i heard the author on joe rogan. she has an amazing voice.

partgypsy

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2019, 02:34:35 PM »
i just started a book about area 51. i want to believe.

What's the book? I also want to believe.

My uncle briefly worked at area 51 and he said there's nothing there but some experimental craft (human-made). And my great uncle worked at Ames research lab (NACA) and at the time his work was classified (now declassified, wind tunnel experiments at sub and super sonic speed for different wing types) Scientific advances were made by many many people working many man-hours. But, aliens are more fun. 

If you want to read about something really weird, read about "The men who stare at goats."
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 03:01:23 PM by partgypsy »

big_owl

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2019, 02:41:21 PM »
After @big_owl recommended the book upthread, I put it on hold at my local library, starting at around #45 on the waitlist.  After months, finally got my turn, and I checked it out and read the entire book over the weekend. 
I have to say, after the rave reviews expressed here, I was a little disappointed.  I am usually a Sci-fi fan.  I am a huge science & space nerd and an engineer, yet I found the book too technical.  I am chinese-american, yet I had trouble relating to the chinese cultural references and found all the chinese names hard to follow.  I knew not to expect a space-marines type sci fi book, but I didn't find the ideas in the story that thought provoking or novel.
I have the 2nd book on hold now, but am debating whether or not to even check it out. 
I guess I am just offering my review as a counter-balance to the other opinions expressed.
i was trying to explain the trilogy to my girlfriend and i really couldn't do it. so much stuff happens and it's all so wild. i had to read the wikipedia page just to refresh my understanding. i'm not real sure what the first part of book 3 had to do with the rest of the story?
Fwiw, the first book is definitely the toughest read.  I almost gave up a few times.  Second and third were much more interesting, at least for me.

Eta, it doesn't get any less technical though, so if that's not your thing then you might want to cut bait.  I still think it's worth reading just for The Singer and 2D sheets of paper... A wild conclusion.

Are you talking about the fairytales?

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2019, 08:39:23 AM »
As a biologist I need to chime in and point out that not all forms of life on Earth are predisposed to "multiply and fill" their available niche.  Many organisms have environmental feedback mechanisms that reduce or halt growth and reproduction when a resource begins to become limiting. As noted, humans and some other organisms do not have such biological constraints. 

Yet even within human society we seem to be hitting an inflection point, where wealthy societies are (by and large) not reproducing faster than replacement (i.e. the birthrate for most countries in the G20 are slowing, and many are at or below the level necessary to maintain the same population without immigration).  Countries like Canada, Japan, the USA, Germany, Spain, UK etc are all at or under this threshold already.

 Given the economic expansion we've witnessed in the last 50 years and its negative correlation on birthrates, one could imagine that Earth will hit a maximum population number sometime in the next half-century, and then (possibly) slowly decline in the 2100s.  In fact the most effective way of stopping global population grwoth (if that was our goal) very well could be to raise the income standards of the the several dozen mostly African and Asian countries where birthrates are still >>3/woman.


It's entirely conjecture whether ET lifeforms would share our human train of "multiply and fill".
As a statistician/demographer I need to chime in and point out that while I agree that increased wages are a good way to lower birth rates; I think that could be a little cart-before-the-horse in developing countries.

Historically, the best way to facilitate the latter* part of the demographic transition (i.e. the death rates have already fallen but birth rate is still somewhat high) seems to be increasing the literacy rate/education of women.  Runners-up would be enacting policies that give social (especially non-stigmatized legal access to contraceptives) and economic agency to women (letting them drive and own property/businesses, etc.).  This in turn leads to higher rates of urbanization and less subsistence farming and the birth rates plummet.  Raising the income standards is a pleasant byproduct.

* - the early part, when you have both high birth and death rates, is generally kickstarted with perpetual societal access to clean water and sanitation infrastructure, basic medicine esp. w/ infants, and agricultural advances and access to cooking technology - all of which drive down the death rate.

It is interesting on a species level to think about if a colonizing alien species is doing so out of population pressure or just a natural desire to explore new places while having a balanced utopian homeworld.  I suspect *some* level of population pressure would be a catalyst to develop space-travel technology, as well as continued agricultural & energy production and consumption innovation.  But as you said, this is pure conjecture and influenced by the human experience.

Leisured

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #82 on: September 01, 2019, 08:06:43 PM »

To paraphrase someone else, 'anyone who thinks there is no other life outside our planet does not comprehend how large the universe is - and anyone who thinks extraterrestrials could visit our planet do not comprehend how large the universe is'


Excellent summary, nereo.

Luke Warm

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2019, 05:05:22 AM »
i got so sucked in to this interview. it's complete fiction but it's so entertaining, like a good science fiction novel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEWz4SXfyCQ

partgypsy

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2019, 07:19:06 AM »
Unlike bacteria which may have feedback mechanisms, many animals especially mammals do not stay within the the constraints of their resources. Instead populations grow to exceed natural resources, going through boom and bust oscillating population levels.  Based on history in humans, both what has happened on many islands, as well as other examples (many mesoamerican cultures, also fall of various civilizations) humans are in this category. We already see many examples of degradation of natural environment/resources. However since humans now have a global society the collapse has been delayed because we can get resources beyond our local areas to keep going, but it also means the collapse is going to be worse when it does happen. In addition, monocultures or less complex ecosystems are more prone to oscillations (instabilities) and ultimate extinction.   
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 10:06:19 AM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2019, 07:30:37 AM »
After @big_owl recommended the book upthread, I put it on hold at my local library, starting at around #45 on the waitlist.  After months, finally got my turn, and I checked it out and read the entire book over the weekend. 
I have to say, after the rave reviews expressed here, I was a little disappointed.  I am usually a Sci-fi fan.  I am a huge science & space nerd and an engineer, yet I found the book too technical.  I am chinese-american, yet I had trouble relating to the chinese cultural references and found all the chinese names hard to follow.  I knew not to expect a space-marines type sci fi book, but I didn't find the ideas in the story that thought provoking or novel.
I have the 2nd book on hold now, but am debating whether or not to even check it out. 
I guess I am just offering my review as a counter-balance to the other opinions expressed.

I was kinda disappointed by the book as well.  It's pretty damned light on actual science fiction.  About 2/3rds of the book seems to be about how shitty life in China is.  The sciffy and technical parts I found great though (far and away the most interesting bits of the book) . . . just wish there had been more of 'em.

Luke Warm

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2019, 07:32:50 AM »
After @big_owl recommended the book upthread, I put it on hold at my local library, starting at around #45 on the waitlist.  After months, finally got my turn, and I checked it out and read the entire book over the weekend. 
I have to say, after the rave reviews expressed here, I was a little disappointed.  I am usually a Sci-fi fan.  I am a huge science & space nerd and an engineer, yet I found the book too technical.  I am chinese-american, yet I had trouble relating to the chinese cultural references and found all the chinese names hard to follow.  I knew not to expect a space-marines type sci fi book, but I didn't find the ideas in the story that thought provoking or novel.
I have the 2nd book on hold now, but am debating whether or not to even check it out. 
I guess I am just offering my review as a counter-balance to the other opinions expressed.

I was kinda disappointed by the book as well.  It's pretty damned light on actual science fiction.  About 2/3rds of the book seems to be about how shitty life in China is.  The sciffy and technical parts I found great though (far and away the most interesting bits of the book) . . . just wish there had been more of 'em.

the other two books get deep into science.

big_owl

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2019, 06:09:47 PM »
I gave in and just downloaded Redemption of Time to my kindle. Will report back when I finish. Its competition is Battle Angel Alita, I'm almost done with hose books as well.

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Just Joe

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2019, 01:25:02 PM »
i just started a book about area 51. i want to believe.

What's the book? I also want to believe.

My uncle briefly worked at area 51 and he said there's nothing there but some experimental craft (human-made). And my great uncle worked at Ames research lab (NACA) and at the time his work was classified (now declassified, wind tunnel experiments at sub and super sonic speed for different wing types) Scientific advances were made by many many people working many man-hours. But, aliens are more fun. 

If you want to read about something really weird, read about "The men who stare at goats."

And there was a movie too. Equally odd but fun.

Linea_Norway

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Re: UFO News
« Reply #90 on: October 10, 2019, 01:25:09 AM »
[<...>
If you want to read about something really weird, read about "The men who stare at goats."

Thanks, I ordered it from the library.