U.K. Mustachians - What is your take on the Brexit?

[MrStash2000]

Any UK mustachians out there?

If so I am curious to know what your take is on the leave EU / stay EU vote that is coming up on the 23rd. Current polls are showing that the leave is now ahead 55 / 45. It seems like the leave now has the momentum.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

Personally, I hate the globalist agenda and I'm hoping that they leave. Also I think a Brexit may impact the US Presidential election. BUT I am curious to hear your take on the issue.

[MoonShadow]

I'm just interested in this as a spectator, but can we get a poll?

[Yaeger]

Yes, I fully support the BREXIT. I think the European Union has betrayed the founding principles for why it was established and places far too many restrictions, barriers, and burdens upon the member states. It's no surprise that that the EU member states have been economically stagnant for decades and the BREXIT has been steadily gaining in popular support.

A pretty long video, from an exit-stance on the BREXIT that I found to be interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

[shelivesthedream]

If I had to bet I'd bet that people will chicken out when they get to the polls and "Remain" will win by a modest margin. It'll be Scotland all over again - people talk big but they don't really want to change the status quo.

I'll be voting to remain because I am ideology for a stronger Europe and want to embrace our European brothers and sisters.

[EsioTrot]

I'm in as well. 

They're all lying (both sides), and it has been interesting/revealing to see them keep a straight face and try to justify it.  I don't know how any of them will have any credibility afterwards, embarrassing to watch.

However, if we leave, I see our economy tanking and the Government will be in tatters, they will be too busy in-fighting to come up with any sensible plan. Europe will hold us to open borders to even get a whiff of trade.  No change, and we won't have a seat at the table in the future direction of Europe.  I'm also concerned about what a more right wing Government would do without the EU to rein them in a bit.

I agree the EU isn't perfect and needs reform, but I can't see that leaving will accomplish anything positive for the UK or Europe.

[Doubleh]

I agree with the last two posters, EU is far from perfect but I don't believe we would be better off out of it. I also believe that those that want to leave are very vocal and are over represented in the polling, reality is likely to favour the status quo, touch wood

[Tom Bri]

Question for the UKers. Do cultural or immigration concerns play a role for you?

I suspect a BREXIT would result in a short economic downturn, but nothing worse. Other peripheral countries seem to do well enough without joining.

[shelivesthedream]

Ilegal immigration is a big concern for me because of people being paid under minimum wage in cash and therefore not paying taxes and genuinely pushing down wages. But, y'know, that's all already illegal.

The only major cultural concern I have with immigration is people coming to England and not speaking or quickly learning English. I do not want to live in a country where I cannot communicate with its citizens. This is a problem with recent immigrants living solely in communities with their fellow Arabic speakers or Chinese speakers or whatever, and I would like strictly-enforced requirements to be or become fluent in English. My parents hired a builder one time and his entire crew turned out to be Romanian and the head guy was the only one who spoke a word of English. It was very stressful for them as if they ever needed to say anything to anyone they had to go and find the head builder, tell him ("Please wipe your feet", "Would you like a cup of tea?", "We're just going to the shops, please don't let the cat out") and then he'd have to tell the other builder(s). That's an unpleasant situation, to not be able to talk to the people who are working in your own house.

We are having a housing crisis but that's really not the fault of the immigrants.

My belief is that BREXIT will result in a short economic downturn and then nothing will change because lots of EU law is enshrined in British law and the remaining EU countries won't budge on keeping free movement so we can keep free trade and things like that, we just won't have a voice at the table any more.

[Butterfingers]

I will be voting remain. The EU is flawed, but I firmly believe we are better off inside than out.

[marty998]

I'm a citizen (dual Aus/UK) but not a resident of the UK. Can I vote in the referendum?

Personally I would like to see the monetary union broken up, in the absence of a fiscal union implemented. It exacerbated the financial crisis experienced by Greece and Spain, and made the recovery much more difficult, because those countries cannot compete with Germany and France. The trade imbalances build up and create economic issues for everyone.

The UK made a good decision in not adopting the Euro.... .It would have been the UK, in conjunction with Germany having to forgive loans to the Greeks.

[Butterfingers]

I'm a citizen (dual Aus/UK) but not a resident of the UK. Can I vote in the referendum?

No, unfortunately not.

Agree with you about the Euro. Too many dissimilar economies under one currency is a bad idea. If it was Benelux + Germany + the Nordic countries then it might stand a better chance.

[kvaruni]

Strongly in favour of staying in.

Yes, the EU is flawed, much like any other political institution, but a Brexit simply isn't the answer to address that problem. A Brexit is just a populistic stance that tries to address symptoms without addressing any root causes. All things considered, a Brexit won't even change that much. London will soon enough realise they need free trade to keep their precious banks and headquarters, and will have to accept free movement for it. With all the upcoming elections throughout Europe these negotiations will be tough and I don't think the UK will get any easy deals. All of it will come at a cost of a lower budget for the NHS (yes, immigrants significantly contribute to the economy), a strong reduction in research income, a potentially strong (worldwide?) recession, and a divided UK (not so sure about Scotland and NI staying in). Having to pay such a hefty price for essentially a status quo doesn't make sense to me.

But I do think (and hope) that many UKers will chicken out and eventually vote to Remain.

Btw, immigrant from the EU myself, hiya! :)

[cerat0n1a]

Question for the UKers. Do cultural or immigration concerns play a role for you?

I suspect a BREXIT would result in a short economic downturn, but nothing worse. Other peripheral countries seem to do well enough without joining.

I think the economic case is probably the clearest, definitely bad for the UK economy to leave, the question is whether it's a permanent thing or just temporary. Scotland will almost certainly leave the UK and join the EU if we vote out and the knock-on effect for Northern Ireland would be complicated, so quite a lot of collateral damage to our neighbours.

Immigration concerns are at the root of a lot of the "Leave" voters concerns, I think. Bottom line is, we have more jobs than people to do them and much of Europe has very high unemployment, so inevitably people move to Britain. Depends on where you are, but round here, you won't have many British people doing work in pubs/restaurants, care homes for the elderly, building sites, office cleaning, supermarkets, food (meat/veg) processing. Where I work (very well paid high-tech), about a third of people in the office are from other EU countries. Some people (e.g. landlords or indeed people who benefit from house price rises) have done very well out of this, other people have suffered as a result (the unskilled I guess and arguably young people priced out of housing market.)

The "peripheral" countries pretty much have to go along with EU rules anyway (and pay money to the EU in the process), but don't have any influence. Norway is rich because lots of oil/not many people, the Swiss get to look after the money of the world's corrupt dictators, organised crime, tax evaders etc.  Neither of those options really work for the UK.

Interesting to look at European Newspapers - the Irish & Germans appear to be pretty worried and begging us to stay; the French commentators appear to relish the prospect of us finally going. Marine Le Pen in France and AfD in Germany both doing well in the polls, so it may not be just Britain that goes through this.

[MoneyCat]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

[MrStash2000]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

I too feel the Britons pain.

It is like the mass immigration I see in Texas when people from California move here in great numbers.

[MoonShadow]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

I too feel the Britons pain.

It is like the mass immigration I see in Texas when people from California move here in great numbers.

On the flip side, I don't understand why Britons should be worried about whether or not Scotland stays in the UK or chooses to join the EU as an independent country.  I don't think I would mind it at all if a few US states where the people typically speak English with an accent would decide to leave our union.  It might do the rest of us some good down the line.  California, Washington State & Oregon would make a wonderful start.

[cerat0n1a]

On the flip side, I don't understand why Britons should be worried about whether or not Scotland stays in the UK or chooses to join the EU as an independent country.  I don't think I would mind it at all if a few US states where the people typically speak English with an accent would decide to leave our union.  It might do the rest of us some good down the line.  California, Washington State & Oregon would make a wonderful start.

Pretty much agree - and I think most people in England are not that bothered about whether Scotland stays or goes - it's their decision, a different situation from say Spain and Catalonia where the central government is absolutely adamant that they can never leave.

On the other hand, we've been together longer than the US has existed. Lots of people in England were born in Scotland or have Scottish ancestry and would have to make a decision about whether to become a "foreigner." The idea that you might need your passport, or to change currency to move from one side of town to the other in some places seems odd. It would also raise a lot of questions about our role in the world. Does England on its own really justify having a United Nations Security Council veto? Our armed forces would inevitably shrink - the nuclear bases are in Scotland and would be closed down. Northern Ireland's links are really with Scotland and the UK as a whole than with England, so there is a knock on effect there. That then leaves England with Wales (and, like most other English people, I'm watching England v Wales in the European Championship Football right now). Wales feels more foreign to me than Scotland or Ireland - their language is a living one in everyday use, unlike Gaelic in Scotland or Ireland.

[GuitarStv]

The only major cultural concern I have with immigration is people coming to England and not speaking or quickly learning English. I do not want to live in a country where I cannot communicate with its citizens. This is a problem with recent immigrants living solely in communities with their fellow Arabic speakers or Chinese speakers or whatever, and I would like strictly-enforced requirements to be or become fluent in English. My parents hired a builder one time and his entire crew turned out to be Romanian and the head guy was the only one who spoke a word of English. It was very stressful for them as if they ever needed to say anything to anyone they had to go and find the head builder, tell him ("Please wipe your feet", "Would you like a cup of tea?", "We're just going to the shops, please don't let the cat out") and then he'd have to tell the other builder(s). That's an unpleasant situation, to not be able to talk to the people who are working in your own house.

How is whether people choose to speak English in the UK going to be helped or hindered in any way by leaving the EU?

[shelivesthedream]

The only major cultural concern I have with immigration is people coming to England and not speaking or quickly learning English. I do not want to live in a country where I cannot communicate with its citizens. This is a problem with recent immigrants living solely in communities with their fellow Arabic speakers or Chinese speakers or whatever, and I would like strictly-enforced requirements to be or become fluent in English. My parents hired a builder one time and his entire crew turned out to be Romanian and the head guy was the only one who spoke a word of English. It was very stressful for them as if they ever needed to say anything to anyone they had to go and find the head builder, tell him ("Please wipe your feet", "Would you like a cup of tea?", "We're just going to the shops, please don't let the cat out") and then he'd have to tell the other builder(s). That's an unpleasant situation, to not be able to talk to the people who are working in your own house.

How is whether people choose to speak English in the UK going to be helped or hindered in any way by leaving the EU?

It isn't. I was answering Tom Bri's question "Do cultural or immigration concerns play a role for you?" and I now realise he meant "in the EU referendum", not "in life generally". Though I guess my answer to the former is therefore "Not really".

[deadlymonkey]

My question is how will this affect US Markets?  I would assume that if leaving the EU is approved, investors will flock to relative stability of US markets driving up values until the fallout settles.  If Britain stays there wouldn't be a real bump or dive in US markets......so invest now?

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

I don't see how it would affect markets much. A trade war with Britain would really hurt Europe - you think they won't let BMW sell cars in the UK? It's not going to happen.

[deadlymonkey]

I don't see how it would affect markets much. A trade war with Britain would really hurt Europe - you think they won't let BMW sell cars in the UK? It's not going to happen.

I don't see a trade war or anything, but there would definitely be short term "confusion" and in those cases, money runs to perceived safer areas. 

[Midwest]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

I should feel the same way having to send mine to liberal Connecticut, but we are are one big nation.

[deadlymonkey]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

I should feel the same way having to send mine to liberal Connecticut, but we are are one big nation.

Much more likely to send your money to southern red states that are the biggest "takers" of taxes.  Most northern states are "givers".  Connecticut is a taker, but not by much.

[Midwest]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

I should feel the same way having to send mine to liberal Connecticut, but we are are one big nation.

Much more likely to send your money to southern red states that are the biggest "takers" of taxes.  Most northern states are "givers".  Connecticut is a taker, but not by much.

As I said, one we are one big nation.  As a member of the state in the top 5 in giving to other states, I remember that.  Back to the topic at hand.

[MrStash2000]

For those who want to know more about why Britain should leave the EU, watch this film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

[seattlecyclone]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

Yeah, I kind of feel the same way about the US. Too much power is centralized in DC, and there's little need for that to be the case. Our states are mostly big enough that they could have more of their own policies tailored to their own people and it would be fine. Federalizing things just tends to make everyone unhappy. Health care is just one example. People on the right tend to agree that Obamacare went too far, and people on the left think it didn't go far enough. By some measures that's the definition of a perfect compromise, but why was it necessary to implement a compromise on such a large scale? Why not let Massachusetts have a different health care policy than Texas, such that the people in both states end up happier with the way things turned out?

If I lived in the UK I would be similarly wary of more centralized power. Things like free trade and freedom of movement are great, but those things should be achievable without also ceding so much other legislative authority to a distant government that your neighbors disagree with much of the time.

[MoneyCat]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

I should feel the same way having to send mine to liberal Connecticut, but we are are one big nation.

Much more likely to send your money to southern red states that are the biggest "takers" of taxes.  Most northern states are "givers".  Connecticut is a taker, but not by much.

Yeah, northern states mostly have to send our welfare money to southern states to pay for their incompetence at creating jobs. Enjoy those army bases in your state that I'm paying for.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Midwest]

I understand the Britons' frustration. It's kind of like how I feel as an American from New Jersey having to send all my tax dollars to prop up failed state economies in Mississippi and Alabama.

I should feel the same way having to send mine to liberal Connecticut, but we are are one big nation.

Much more likely to send your money to southern red states that are the biggest "takers" of taxes.  Most northern states are "givers".  Connecticut is a taker, but not by much.

Yeah, northern states mostly have to send our welfare money to southern states to pay for their incompetence at creating jobs. Enjoy those army bases in your state that I'm paying for.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I live in the Midwest, 4 of the 5 top giving states are in the midwest.  I don't live in the south, I live in one of the top giver states.   

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1122796;topic=57290.0

BTW, Florida is one of the top 2 takers.  It's filled with people from the east and midwest.  Sometimes its necessary to help our fellow Americans out.

[Rightflyer]

For those who want to know more about why Britain should leave the EU, watch this film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

A lot of holes in the facts presented in that film. Not saying it is completely wrong...just misleading in a lot of areas. Not really a balanced, critical view.

[Yaeger]

I think the original ideals of the European Union have been perverted, which have created this mess of administrative, regulatory, and legal processes in which the British people have little say in. Contrary to it's goals of promoting free trade, enterprise, and competition the EU seems to be just another growing bureaucratic layer on top of the nations government's that continues to place restrictions more and more restrictions on these things. The UK actually has an easier time trading with outside nations than it does in the supposedly 'free trade' neighbors within the EU.

Staying in the EU is like economically shackling yourself to a corpse. The EU's economic growth has been dismal for the last 2 centuries and the EU continues to lose ground on the world's market at an astounding rate, taking the UK down with it. It's operations today don't reflect the principles of the why it was founded, at least in terms of one of the primary reasons for its establishment: trade.

[cerat0n1a]

The UK actually has an easier time trading with outside nations than it does in the supposedly 'free trade' neighbors within the EU.

Nonsense.  I do this every day. Dealing with the US isn't quite as bad as say India or China, but still lots of bureaucratic hoops to jump through. Selling stuff and moving goods in the EU is as easy as doing it within the UK.

Staying in the EU is like economically shackling yourself to a corpse. The EU's economic growth has been dismal for the last 2 centuries and the EU continues to lose ground on the world's market at an astounding rate, taking the UK down with it.

Sure about that? Two centuries ago, we'd just finished sorting out Napoleon.

Quoting from the Financial Times: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#ixzz4Brb2vidU

"By the late 1960s, France, West Germany and Italy — the three founder members closest in size to the UK — produced more per person than it did and the gap grew larger every year .Between 1958, when the EEC was set up, and Britain’s entry in 1973, gross domestic product per head rose 95 per cent in these three countries compared with only 50 per cent in Britain.

After becoming an EEC member, Britain slowly began to catch up. Gross domestic product per person has grown faster than Italy, Germany and France in the 42 years since. By 2013, Britain became more prosperous than the average of the three other large European economies for the first time since 1965."

[Yaeger]

The UK actually has an easier time trading with outside nations than it does in the supposedly 'free trade' neighbors within the EU.

Nonsense.  I do this every day. Dealing with the US isn't quite as bad as say India or China, but still lots of bureaucratic hoops to jump through. Selling stuff and moving goods in the EU is as easy as doing it within the UK.

Staying in the EU is like economically shackling yourself to a corpse. The EU's economic growth has been dismal for the last 2 centuries and the EU continues to lose ground on the world's market at an astounding rate, taking the UK down with it.

Sure about that? Two centuries ago, we'd just finished sorting out Napoleon.

Quoting from the Financial Times: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#ixzz4Brb2vidU

"By the late 1960s, France, West Germany and Italy — the three founder members closest in size to the UK — produced more per person than it did and the gap grew larger every year .Between 1958, when the EEC was set up, and Britain’s entry in 1973, gross domestic product per head rose 95 per cent in these three countries compared with only 50 per cent in Britain.

After becoming an EEC member, Britain slowly began to catch up. Gross domestic product per person has grown faster than Italy, Germany and France in the 42 years since. By 2013, Britain became more prosperous than the average of the three other large European economies for the first time since 1965."

Sorry, that was a typo, I meant decades. But that's exactly what I was talking about. In the beginning the member countries were booming for the most part, Germany had massive growth after the reconstruction following WW2 because of it's generally free and less-restrictive government. Britain, on the other hand, languished after the war because of it's large government and excessive regulatory requirements with a government that still kept control of 'state resources'. In the early days of the EU, the EU relaxed a lot of these national requirements which boosted trade both within the EU and external to the EU.

Conceptually, it doesn't even make sense. Trade barriers are a result of government intervention in an economy that prevents private parties from voluntary trading. Things like quotas, excise taxes, protectionism hurt free trade.  Starting in the mid 1980s the EU started down a path of crony capitalism and protectionism, creating additional trade barriers that effectively defeated the purpose of joining the EU. Choosing to stay in the EU is like saying you need two levels of government to ensure that government doesn't restrict trade between two mutually benefiting private parties. It doesn't make sense.

[cerat0n1a]

Trade barriers are a result of government intervention in an economy that prevents private parties from voluntary trading. Things like quotas, excise taxes, protectionism hurt free trade. 

Totally agree. However, free trade is not an option open to us. We have to hold our collective noses and take the least bad option. Trade isn't the only factor - all the "big" problems we face in the coming decades - the environment, migration, security etc. require European countries to co-operate.

We're currently part of a protectionist bloc that imposes tariffs etc. and impedes free trade (and, for example, makes european farmers rich and stops african farmers from bettering their lot through trade barriers.) That protectionist bloc negotiates with other large protectionist political entities such as the US or China and gets a better deal than the UK alone would. As part of the EU, we at least have a tiny amount of influence on things like TTIP that will massively affect our national life. Outside the EU we would just have to accept what was agreed.

[MoonShadow]

When is the official vote?

[seattlecyclone]

When is the official vote?

Next Thursday.

[Tom Bri]

The primary argument appears (to this outsider) to be cultural, rather than economic. The 'stayers' do make some economic arguments, but the 'splitters' arguments that I have heard are mainly cultural/racial. From a Brit perspective, is this accurate, or just the US media presenting it that way?

Honestly, I can't see how splitting would really hurt the Brit economy long-term, unless the Euros wanted to deliberately punish them. Japan, Sweden, Singapore etc all have done well as independent nations.

[Curbside Prophet]

Evans-Pritchard is voting leave and he makes some strong points.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/

[Leisured]

The first rule of politics is that the polity must be able to control its territory; hence the concern over poorly controlled immigration. Against that, I have been informed that half of immigration is from other EU nations, presumably people taking up jobs in Britain. And in reverse: Britons move to the EU to work, and to retire in Spain and southern France. It seems that Britain still has adequate control of its territory.

On another tack: a reformed EU could restore the original currencies and abolish the Euro. Modern smart cards loaded with multiple currencies allow travelers to move from country to country paying in the local currency. Merchants can pay suppliers in other EU currencies with automatic currency conversion.

I was in Switzerland in 2007, and had to convert currency into Swiss Francs. The joke at the time was that Europe said to Switzerland; 'You should adopt the Euro,' and the Swiss replied; 'No, Europe should adopt the Swiss Franc.'

[Alchemilla]

The campaigning has been paused since the murder of one of our MPs possibly in relation to it.

I shall vote remain and I think shelivesthedream predicts the outcome.

[nobodyspecial]

The reason for a common currency isn't for the convenience of coin carrying tourists. It's to prevent countries competing to lower their own currency to boost their exports at the expense of their free trade partners / enable Germany to avoid the problems of an export economy and an over valued currency / prepare for federalism and ultimate assimilation by our Belgian overlords (depending on your level of paranoia)

Unfortunately it requires a single interest rate and the idea of Greece and Germany paying the same interest rate is as unworkable as South Detroit and Silicon valley sharing a single federal reserve policy.

 
 

[cerat0n1a]

Evans-Pritchard is voting leave and he makes some strong points.

That's a far more rational argument for leaving than any other I've seen and one that fully recognises the immediate consequences and dangers. I do struggle with the idea that our parliament is in some way more democratic than EU institutions when we still have the House of Lords.

[MMMaybe]

If I was still resident, I would vote to Leave. Unfortunately the EU has not been willing to listen to the concerns of its members, in its quest to broaden and deepen the Union. Britain is not the only country that would like to see some reforms. I feel that some flexibility on the part of the EU may have prevented Brexit.

I am happy with the idea of an economic community and low/no trade barriers. But the idea of the single currency, political union and the European superstate have gone too far.

I think EU countries do need a mechanism for controlling the numbers of people moving in, as some countries are really taking the brunt of the free movement. If only to allow the planning/infrastructure people to have any idea of what is coming down the line or to allow the residents to absorb the numbers arriving.

I think at the heart of all the dissatisfaction is a simple fact. There is too much competition for resources and jobs at the working class/middle class level. Control over how many/which people are coming in, would be more sensible.

[nobodyspecial]

I think at the heart of all the dissatisfaction is a simple fact. There is too much competition for resources and jobs at the working class/middle class level. Control over how many/which people are coming in, would be more sensible.

How do you do that while allowing free trade?
We have, in theory, free trade with the USA but it's still a real pain at the border to visit a US customer/supplier
Imagine if every British Aerospace or Rolls Royce employee going to Airbus was subject to the whim of a French border guard.

 

[MMMaybe]

[/quote]
How do you do that while allowing free trade?
We have, in theory, free trade with the USA but it's still a real pain at the border to visit a US customer/supplier
Imagine if every British Aerospace or Rolls Royce employee going to Airbus was subject to the whim of a French border guard.
 
[/quote]
I am not talking about preventing people coming in and out of Britain, I am talking about the numbers coming in to live, of which there is currently no upper limit (in terms of EU citizens).

What I was getting at, is that you are seeing the results of a policy that has disproportionately affected people in the UK with lower skill levels and less income and added millions more (similar) people to compete with them for jobs and schools and housing. This is not a good thing for them and infrastructure is simply not keeping up with the demand.

If you were already upper middle class, did not need to send your kids to a state school, owned a house and used private health care...then you may not mind so much and could focus on broader economic benefits.

I suppose the only way to do it, is to allow X number of EU residents to move to Britain per year and target areas of skill shortages.

Non EU people would be more heavily restricted, in terms of job permits.  If you absolutely cannot find that particular skill within the EU and/or it is a special case like someone setting up a company or needing to bring in high level employees, then you would be allowed to bring in candidates.

This is not my idea though, Switzerland is essentially doing this already, with regards to non-EU people. They, like the UK, would dearly love to restrict EU people as well but are biding their time until after the referendum to make that request.

[nobodyspecial]

So how is that different from somebody from Scotland or Northern Ireland or Barnsley coming to London and taking my job?
The economy is better off if somebody comes from Poland and takes that low paid job, I haven't had to pay for their education, I won't have to pay for their old age pension or expensive geriatric care - and yet I'm collecting their taxes.
 

[Trudie]

American here, so just commenting out of curiosity and to follow.

We just visited the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.  I'm particularly interested in what the impact of a leave decision would have in two areas:
(1) The re-establishment of checkpoints at the border of NI and the Republic (Mary McAleese has weighed in on this already) -- not only the hassle factor but the psychological factor after hard-earned peace.
(2) The negative impact on the significant amount of current trade between the Republic and the U.K.  It's my understanding that if the U.K. pulls out that as a Eurozone member the Republic will still need to yield to the Eurozone to negotiate trade, so can't negotiate "one off" deals directly with its neighbors to the north and east to expediently fill the trade hole.

[nobodyspecial]

There are unlikely to be check points, it would cause too much political trouble (British soldier shoots Eu citizen ?)
If they couldn't seal the border against semtex and Armalites it would seem tricky to keep out French Cheese. If the UK did manage to succeed in going it alone the smuggling could well be the other way - cheap "foreign" goods being smuggled into the Eu through Eire!

Dublin is one of the few places looking forward to a Brexit. Most of the large US corporations in Britain are officially HQ in Dublin. It is one of the arguements made by the leave campaign that the Eu allows Apple/Microsoft/Google/Amazon etc to do $Bn of business in Britain but claim all the sales are made in Ireland and so pay no British tax.
The suggestion is that all the British and International banks/finance/corporations currently in London will continue to operate in London but their HQ will officially move to Dublin (to keep their Eu credentials) and so Eire would get a windfall of corporate taxes.

[mrpercentage]

I'm American. Just a thought but Unions only let you leave so long. After a while they begin to think they own you. Kind of like lending a friend a CD. Ask the South (Southern United Staes) or even Hawaii. I have seen a few #%^* the mainland free Hawaii stickers

[Curbside Prophet]

Man, this is coming down to the wire.  In the end I think people will opt for the known rather than the unknown and stay.  I personally think the UK should take the short-term hits (especially since there is so much preparation going on) to get out of the house of cards that is the EU.  The reason so many are concerned about Brexit is because of contagion.  None of that will go away if the UK stays, it will just speed up the inevitable, which in the long run is a good thing.