Author Topic: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.  (Read 4565 times)

psychomoustache

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I have been dancing around Mustachianism for about - oh - 7 years. (blushes). I totally suck at this but some things have gotten better. I have gotten rid of a lot of crap, I own fewer____ (fill in the blank - shoes, shirts, skirts, whatever) and feel more peaceful as we bite the bullet to pay this house off ASAP.

ANYway...
As an over 50 woman these days, I fell into a Botox and filler habit. I mean - I started a few years ago before turning 50 and thought I looked so damn pretty, then got compliments ("oh you can't be that age") and meanwhile, the whole time, I've been angry and ambivalent about the whole mess. The last time I got stuck was in October. It's high time for another dose of poison. Or not. Please help me out here...

As a feminist, as a human being, it's completely wrong that I should feel pressure to remain artificially young-looking - that I'm not allowed to look my age. Then I think - well who is saying this to me exactly, and why am I buying into it (literally)?

So I am going to bounce this off of you all, and you can smack me if need be (it might help) and just jump in and help me think this through.
Here is what is scaring me:

1. If I let myself look older (and therefore "less appealing") maybe I won't be hired as easily for the workshops I run (I am a psychotherapist and analyst, hence my name).
2. It's just really hard to see my sagging chin, my eye-bags... I suppose there's a quality of mourning to it (I know, stop my whining) but knowing that needle-sticks stop this is so seductive.
3. Believe it (it is sort of unbelievable) or not - my mother wants me to continue. This hurts - she has always been very critical of my appearance though. Once when I was 50 I sent her a picture of me - she hated the way my neck looked - she wouldn't show it to her friends.

Here is what I resent (of course)
1. Most men my age don't think twice about their ageing faces, and would rather spend the $$$$$ on a trip, a new bike, a freaking LIFE.
2. I am angry at myself for feeling like this is so GD important when it isn't.
3. Psychotherapists and psychoanalysts are not actors/realtors/T.V. journalists/beauty consultants or whatever sort of job where one is "required" to look smooth and young. My sister sells real estate in Las Vegas. She is pretty much a pin cushion.

I would love to hear from women who are trying to stop getting stuck, but I would love also to hear from men who just think this is ridiculous - or not. Thank you so much for being here.

Malkynn

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2019, 01:49:30 PM »
I get Botox twice a year and have no intention of ever stopping, that said, I don't do it to try and prevent aging, I do it to not look perma-angry because I have really hyper active muscles between my eyebrows.

I'm a super cheerful and outgoing person and a semiannual, painless and not overly expensive treatment keeps me from looking like I have a perpetual scowl. It's a couple hundred dollars, and it's my birthday and Christmas gifts each year.

I don't Botox any other incipient wrinkles and I don't have any fillers and I'm absolutely fine with looking older. There's no point in fighting it, the aging will win. It's inevitable.

So if you have something like I do, which is a small and reasonable thing that you would like to change/prevent/reverse, and you can easily afford it and it makes you happy, then I don't see it as any different from choosing to straighten your teeth, or colour your hair, or buy high quality foundation.

Botox and fillers in and of themselves are not fundamentally more vain or costly than other cosmetic treatments that others consider totally normal: mani/pedis, facials, hair highlights, waxing, whatever.

What you need to be cautious about is the addictive and slippery slope of trying to combat aging, because it's a losing battle.

Your face is going to change and you need to be okay with that. If you can accept that, fully embrace it, and still feel it's worthwhile to utilize Botox or a filler in a reasonable and limited capacity to address a particular and manageable issue, then cool.

If you find yourself stressing about the changes in your face and trying to hold onto a facsimile of youth as long as possible...well, then you are just paying to be miserable and the injections will reinforce that negative relationship you have with your own appearance and aging.

Lastly, your mother is a bitch.
I'm sorry, but she's a total bitch if she won't show photos of you because of how your neck looks at fucking 50.

You're a psychotherapist, you know full well that you should have better boundaries with a parent who tries to belittle your appearance. Put up those boundaries, make them solid, and shove your mother's opinion of your appearance in the garbage where it belongs.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2019, 02:13:02 PM »
There isn't actually anything wrong with doing some minor touching up so you don't look super angry/saggy. If the ability to do so is not insanely expensive and you don't take the cosmetic stuff past the point of "looks nice/normal" then why stop?

I get a facial treatment about 4-ish times a year (due to roseacea) that happens to also promote collagen growth and makes my skin look amazing. I don't see the need to stop, because again, there's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself or choosing to do things that make you look nice, well-rested, and healthy within reason.

I agree that going to extremes trying to look YOUNG when you really aren't any more is not helpful and aging gracefully is the key here. Just enough to look good "for your age" but not like you're trying to be a different age altogether.

I have a few wrinkles. My neck is getting a tiny bit saggy. I stopped dying my hair and it's completely silver. I'm not trying to fool anyone with how old/young I am. I just don't think it necessary to have really bad skin or stop taking good care of it (SPF/moisturizer/occasional treatments) because I'm older.


Oh and 100% agree with Malkynn - your mother is terrible and you definitely need to separate your self-esteem from her nasty judgemental bullshit.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2019, 02:23:37 PM »
Quote
1. If I let myself look older (and therefore "less appealing") maybe I won't be hired as easily for the workshops I run (I am a psychotherapist and analyst, hence my name).

I don't think this is a real concern.  You're over 50.  While you're probably still reasonably attractive, your days of getting paid for being a sex kitten are likely at an end.  If they're paying you for work now, it's because you're good at what you do . . . not because the promoters secretly want to hump you.

Daley

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2019, 02:45:37 PM »
...but I would love also to hear from men who just think this is ridiculous - or not.

One name: Courteney Cox.

I've never met or seen a woman yet who has botox and fillers that still looked and emoted like herself with them, between the puffiness and the muscle paralysis in the face. Have wrinkles, go gray, let your face be expressive again, and let people recognize the face you grew up with. Be at peace with how nature knitted you.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 02:47:18 PM by Daley »

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2019, 02:53:57 PM »
It's your body and you get to do what you want with it for the reasons you want to. I personally think that there is a narrow time window in which botox achieves the intended result, after which you get the Courtney Cox effect discussed above and ageing gracefully would be a better option on the whole. YMMV. As to it being mustachian? Do the cost benefit analysis and decide if it is worth it to you relative to the cost.

sol

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2019, 03:20:11 PM »
Apparently I'm in the minority that finds this whole thing gross.  Botox, filler, hair dye, high heels, these things are usually considered to be the tools of oppression in the circles I run in.  Serious professional women seem to know better, but I recognize not all industries work this way.

Is it a personal thing instead of a professional thing?  Like are you still trying to date people who value you based on your appearance?  I can understand the desire to spend money on vanity if your job requires it, but that's usually a game for young people who lack skills, or are otherwise still developing their professional reputations, and are hoping to capitalize on their sex appeal to get special treatment.  On-air tv talent, for example, or instagram models.  Some folks are just professional pretty people and their attractiveness is their livelihood.  It's a slightly more muted version of the archaic sex for money exchange that created the patriarchy in the first place, and it's still gross but it's also been sort of normalized in western society so I can maybe understand it.  But if you're doing it for personal instead of professional reasons, that just seems wrong to me.

My wife is older than I am and we're both aging.  But we're doing it together, and it's been a wonderful experience that I think has made our marriage stronger.  We have no illusions that we are still the people we were 20 years ago, and we're constantly grateful for that fact.  Letting our appearance reflect those positive changes feels like a sign of success.  I have no desire to be 21 again.

And then, aside from the personal reasons, I think there's an argument to be made that playing into overtly sexualized gender roles is probably detrimental to society as a whole.  Like do other young women in your profession look up to you and feel compelled to wear miniskirts and high heels, maybe bend waaay over the copy machine so that gross men can leer at them?  Are you reinforcing subservient gender expectations and teaching young women that their value as professionals is dependent on their ability to entice men with their appearance, their behavior, their youth, their fertility?  That would be pretty fucked up, right?  I realize I'm slippery sloping this argument all to hell, but conceptually I'm not sure that feeling pressure to get botox to be "so damn pretty" is much different than feeling pressure to wear a low cut blouse with no bra.  Who's interests are really being served with these expectations?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 03:34:26 PM by sol »

ysette9

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2019, 03:32:32 PM »
...but I would love also to hear from men who just think this is ridiculous - or not.

One name: Courteney Cox.

I've never met or seen a woman yet who has botox and fillers that still looked and emoted like herself with them, between the puffiness and the muscle paralysis in the face. Have wrinkles, go gray, let your face be expressive again, and let people recognize the face you grew up with. Be at peace with how nature knitted you.
I respectfully disagree with you. I think the over-done cases are easy to spot. I posit that the people who do Botox or fillers in moderate amounts would never hit your radar.

Similar to some other posters, Iíve had some Botox in the angry wrinkle between my eyes. Iíve haggled with myself on similar thoughts and decided that I feel best when I look like me, and this helps me look and feel like me. I havenít said anything to anyone close to me in life and no one has ever mentioned a thing.

mm1970

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2019, 03:39:42 PM »
I'm with Sol, and I think about this a lot, and it makes me sad.

I'm approaching 50 next year.  I like to think (and have been told) that I don't look my age.  I haven't looked my age ever.  I think anyway. 

But at my age, here's what I see:
- I have at least two friends from college who are now selling Rodan + Fields.  I get bombarded - BOMBARDED.  I went to an awesome university (top 10 in my field).  These are highly educated, successful women with a "side gig".  Now, one of them sent me free samples.  I've tried 2 of the 3 samples.  The microderm abrasion treatment made my skin silky smooth and wow, I stroked it for hours.  But it's something like $75!!  Seriously.

- It makes me super sad that they are selling this - not that there is anything wrong with taking care of your skin.  Discoloration, pimples, I get it.  But why can't i have wrinkles?  I'm 48 freaking years old!  I have wrinkles, pimples and gray hair!  I guess it upsets me that there's this idea that I'm SUPPOSED to look younger than my age, and I resent that.

- I have other friends bombarding me with makeup, lipsense, Beachbody (which, I like the videos!  I subscribe to their streaming service, because I like to workout.  But - I don't need to "re-make" myself, thanks!)

I live in California and have many friends my age and up who regularly do things like laser skin treatment to reduce age spots and wrinkles.  Botox, waxing, hair coloring, etc.

Anyway, I'm an engineer.  I wear jeans and sneakers to work.  I follow the MMM philosophy that being healthy makes you look young - but a wise woman once told me "at some point, you have to choose between your face and your ass."  I'm choosing my ass.  Yes, if I gained a few pounds, it would fill in the wrinkles.

I very rarely wear makeup.  Please don't ask me how old it is.  I wear it about 2x a year.  Because: why can't I like how I look?  Why can't I like the wrinkles and gray hair?  And cellulite.  And progressive glasses.


I realize that I'm being targeted because of my gender, age, and income.  I got into the habit of never wearing makeup when I went into semiconductors, and have stayed with that habit.  I'm actually starting to embrace the invisibility.  I remember having conversations with older friends when they were in their 50s and 60s about how older women are "invisible".  I kind of like it.

(Though I saw a pic of myself recently and the neck wrinkles...they are my mom's neck wrinkles.  I don't like them.  They age me.  But whatever.  This is who I am!)

Milizard

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2019, 03:44:14 PM »
There isn't actually anything wrong with doing some minor touching up so you don't look super angry/saggy. If the ability to do so is not insanely expensive and you don't take the cosmetic stuff past the point of "looks nice/normal" then why stop?

I get a facial treatment about 4-ish times a year (due to roseacea) that happens to also promote collagen growth and makes my skin look amazing. I don't see the need to stop, because again, there's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself or choosing to do things that make you look nice, well-rested, and healthy within reason.

I agree that going to extremes trying to look YOUNG when you really aren't any more is not helpful and aging gracefully is the key here. Just enough to look good "for your age" but not like you're trying to be a different age altogether.

I have a few wrinkles. My neck is getting a tiny bit saggy. I stopped dying my hair and it's completely silver. I'm not trying to fool anyone with how old/young I am. I just don't think it necessary to have really bad skin or stop taking good care of it (SPF/moisturizer/occasional treatments) because I'm older.


Oh and 100% agree with Malkynn - your mother is terrible and you definitely need to separate your self-esteem from her nasty judgemental bullshit.
May I ask what the facial treatment is called?  I used to have oily skin that could withstand a lot, but I think I've developed rosacea as I've gotten older and my skin more dry.  I've been to a dermatologist, who had me try several expensive creams that seemed to make things worse. My skin is currently a combination mess that I don't know what to do with.


OP--sorry for the side conversation. If the Botox/fillers give you more life satisfaction than whatever else you might have done with that money, then I think it's worth it. It's a very personal thing that I don't think others can dictate to you.
While I don't personally like the idea of Botox/fillers, I'm not opposed to cosmetic procedures in general. (I've got laser skin resurfacing in the back of my mind for a maybe/someday thing).

Kris

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2019, 03:52:55 PM »
I think the "culture" of the people around you in your personal/professional life tends to inform a lot of your feelings about things like this.

I bet your mother's influence is an incredibly huge factor here. I'm so sorry that you're struggling with this, OP. Your mom is an a-hole, as someone above stated. It's really sad how a parent's issues can seep into the cracks of a child's insecurities.

My own mother was very, very troubled by the idea of getting older. To the point that, I'm not kidding, even her best friends (other than the ones she went to high school with) did not know her age. She wouldn't tell them. I watched her really struggle with ageing, and the amount of mental energy she spent worrying about it gave me a firm resolve from an early age that I would NOT allow myself to stress about it that much. My symbolic act was that I swore to myself I would never hide my age from anyone, and would never allow myself to hesitate about giving it, because it should not be something to be ashamed of.

Of course, my mom was not at all critical of me -- so thankfully, she really didn't pass her insecurities on to me, only an object lesson in how not to let an inevitable process rent space in my head. That said, I'm 52, and yeah... the late 40s and early 50s have been tough. I dye my hair to cover up the stray gray hairs, and when I finally do go gray, I have no intention of going natural for a loooooooonnnnnnnggggg time.

So, it's a question of degrees. I will not put chemicals in my body. And I no longer will allow myself to buy expensive creams to try to slow down my ageing, because they're bullshit and they prey on people with fantasies of retaining youth that are just that -- fantasies. But, I have no trouble putting chemicals on my hair. And I wear makeup when I want to look nice for an outing.

The thing about ageing is, it's inevitable. I'm not happy about it, but even if I manage to make myself look forty today, eventually I won't be able to do that anymore. And I kind of hate the idea that my mindset about my appearance would be so wrapped up in trying not to slide down that slope, when I know it's gonna happen anyway. I guess I'd rather look as good as I can right now, without jumping through too many hoops, and then just try to accept and even embrace the rest.

Then again, I'm in a "culture" that sort of allows this kind of thinking to feel okay. I used to be an academic, and now I work from home, so I've never been in corporate America feeling pressure to look perfectly put together all the time. Most of my friends don't do invasive procedures to look better. I'd go so far as to say it's looked down upon, scorned even. If I did Botox or used fillers, I'd feel the need to hide that fact from the people around me, out of embarrassment that I'd caved into that kind of ageist pressure.

But you know what? I also kind of think that pressure comes from both sides. You can be/feel bullied just as much by the "anti" crowd as by the "pro" crowd.

(As a total digression, when I was a young woman hanging in crunchy granola circles, I stopped shaving my legs for a time. I remember being struck by how much more grief and judgment I got from people when I decided to start shaving them again than I ever got from anyone when I was hairy. It really stuck with me how much meaner the "counter-culture" people were to me about what I should be doing with my legs than the "mainstream" types were.)

I'm babbling a little bit by now. But I guess what I wanted to say is:
1) "You do you." BUT:
2) Figure out the reasons why you WANT to do the thing, and also the reasons why you DON'T want to do the thing. Like, in situations such as this I make a two-columned list. Then, when you're done, look at both sides, and ask yourself, "Which is the side I'm feeling more pressure on? And why?" Ask yourself where you're getting bogged down in "shoulds." And where those "shoulds" come from. Spend a few days thinking about it, maybe. And probably what will happen is, after thinking about it for a while, you'll come up with some reasons you're leaning to one side or the other -- but this time, reasons that AREN'T about the shoulds, but more about what you actually want.
3) Then, "you do you," but with a clearer sense of what that means. And give yourself the freedom to stop apologizing for it. For good.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 04:07:53 PM by Kris »

marble_faun

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2019, 04:04:22 PM »
It's a losing battle.  The fillers stretch your face, making the skin even looser in the end. And there's no fooling anyone -- if you're older, people can tell from your hands, your voice, or other tells.

As you say, you aren't in a profession like modeling or acting, where youthful appearance is valued above other attributes. You're a psychotherapist.  Why not embrace the positive connotations of age, like dignity, wisdom, and experience?  One would think these would all be positive attributes for someone in your profession.

BicycleB

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2019, 04:25:57 PM »
Wow, insightful replies, especially @Kris above.

50something male here so first let me acknowledge - sexism sucks (aka, I concur with your resentment #1).

OP, legit concerns on both sides. I think you get to do what you decide and if you do it with gusto, it'll work out.

But even as a guy in the US, I experience the different interest based on the appearance of age. My beard is now naturally white like Stephen Colbert's, but I dye it to the original hearty brown. Strikingly different instant response from people in 20s and 30s, suddenly "ignore" vs "examine with hint of interest" (based on simple trips to the grocery store, at least.) I can only assume that strong visible signs of aging have an even bigger impact for women. So I sympathize with wanting to do the youth-appearance moves.

Re the professional sphere, in honesty, it shouldn't count but I think it sometimes does. I don't think it's false to imagine that. People look at each other. Whether noticing your age or visually putting you in an older category if you stop botoxing would affect your career shouldn't be a question...but it's a question. I think the answer for you depends 90% on other factors, 10% or less on age, because:
1. Some people won't care
2. Competence does count
3. You could play the role of "wise old woman" rather than "youngish woman of competence", they both fit your professional role
4. So yes, I agree with your resentment #3
5. Some people will appreciate your honesty and guts.

I say 90% instead of 100% because in a culture where the media pour images of youngish-looking women on us constantly, I don't think you'll "naturally" hit 100% in career without adapting your behavior. Though if you play the new persona in a way that gains attention in its own way, you might end up at 110%!

Just feeling for you because even men do get this type of pressure now. We're not usually telling you about it, but it happens. (Not all men, of course...) Best wishes regardless!!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 04:28:05 PM by BicycleB »

Frankies Girl

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2019, 04:33:58 PM »
There isn't actually anything wrong with doing some minor touching up so you don't look super angry/saggy. If the ability to do so is not insanely expensive and you don't take the cosmetic stuff past the point of "looks nice/normal" then why stop?

I get a facial treatment about 4-ish times a year (due to roseacea) that happens to also promote collagen growth and makes my skin look amazing. I don't see the need to stop, because again, there's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself or choosing to do things that make you look nice, well-rested, and healthy within reason.

I agree that going to extremes trying to look YOUNG when you really aren't any more is not helpful and aging gracefully is the key here. Just enough to look good "for your age" but not like you're trying to be a different age altogether.

I have a few wrinkles. My neck is getting a tiny bit saggy. I stopped dying my hair and it's completely silver. I'm not trying to fool anyone with how old/young I am. I just don't think it necessary to have really bad skin or stop taking good care of it (SPF/moisturizer/occasional treatments) because I'm older.


Oh and 100% agree with Malkynn - your mother is terrible and you definitely need to separate your self-esteem from her nasty judgemental bullshit.
May I ask what the facial treatment is called?  I used to have oily skin that could withstand a lot, but I think I've developed rosacea as I've gotten older and my skin more dry.  I've been to a dermatologist, who had me try several expensive creams that seemed to make things worse. My skin is currently a combination mess that I don't know what to do with.


OP--sorry for the side conversation. If the Botox/fillers give you more life satisfaction than whatever else you might have done with that money, then I think it's worth it. It's a very personal thing that I don't think others can dictate to you.
While I don't personally like the idea of Botox/fillers, I'm not opposed to cosmetic procedures in general. (I've got laser skin resurfacing in the back of my mind for a maybe/someday thing).

@Milizard 

IPL or Intense Pulsed Light or sometimes called Photo Facial. I had to start doing it in my late 20s when diagnosed with roseacea, otherwise the structure of my face would have make me look like W.C. Fields/rampant alcoholic eventually - red face, broken veins (looks similar to varicose veins in legs), lumpy skin, acne, distortion of nose/cheeks.

The treatment involves a thick cooling gel slathered all over your face, eye pad protection and then depending on the overall redness or if they are trying to combat veins/texture but it feels like a very hot rubberband slapping sensation over effected areas. Painful, but it is fast and then no pain after. Healing generally over the next 24 hours with good results after 3-4 treatments (in the beginning you do them every month/3 weeks, then maintaining for me is like a few times a year), and side benefit is collagen production so skin looks better overall for months. When I say "healing" I mean skin starts improving and if you got a tiny bruise type of thing - you don't look like you had work done at all so no scary skin flaking/burns or anything. At most your face looks a tiny bit plumper/redder due to swelling, but it isn't actually noticeable to anyone but yourself.

I go to a licensed dermatologist (never a medispa) as it's also possible to get burned/bruised easily and could cause damage if not done correctly OR if your skin is very sensitive; I am fair skinned and bruise easily so first few deeper treatments I did have some mild bruising, just made sure to do it on a Friday and was completely fine by Monday morning.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 06:30:11 PM by Frankies Girl »

jrhampt

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2019, 04:47:32 PM »
Do what you want to do, not what you resent/feel obligated to do (at least to the extent the culture and your job permits).  I donít do fillers or dye my hair (Iím probably going to be mostly white by 50), or wear heels, but I do get a little Botox a couple of times a year - not enough to completely immobilize my face.  I also get IPL treatments every couple of years to help with rosacea/dark spots/capillaries.  Dying my roots isnít worth the time and money to me - Iím not willing to do it every 4 weeks. I wonít even bother with blow drying or otherwise ďdoingĒ my hair, ever, and I have no patience for manicures/pedicures.   But if I can do something twice a year or once every couple of years that takes 15 minutes and means I look fine with a very minimal skin/makeup routine, thatís about the level of time Iím willing to spend on it.  The best anti-aging for body, skin, and mind will always be exercise, sleep, and sun damage prevention.  Anything else should be totally up to you to decide how much effort itís worth putting into delaying the inevitable.  I go for efficiency and ROI.  No one should judge what you decide to do - what some people consider to be basic grooming others will think is going to far.  Where do you draw the line? Sexism/ageism is real, and we all have to decide what compromises weíre willing to make to deal with that and how to make peace with the fact that some of  those compromises help to perpetuate the whole system.

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2019, 04:51:25 PM »
What would you tell one or more of your psychotherapy clients if they asked you the same question?  Be honest.

I don't think it is such a big deal.  I used to get Botox for a medical condition (blepharospasm) associated with my Tourette's Syndrome.  Several treatments over 3-4 years seem to have beat the problem.  But I never liked not being able to raise my eyebrows and give a look of surprise.  Mine was pretty cheap b/c the insurance was paying as my neurologist coded it as "medically necessary".  I'm surprised you say your injections are painless.  When you get them around the eyelids, they hurt like hell.

To me mustachianism isn't about being as cheap as possible. It is about mindful spending.  Does this really make you happy?

Daley

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2019, 04:53:45 PM »
I respectfully disagree with you. I think the over-done cases are easy to spot. I posit that the people who do Botox or fillers in moderate amounts would never hit your radar.

And I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Maybe if I didn't know you from Eve, but I'd still probably notice something was off after talking for a bit. When a facial muscle is paralyzed, it may look fine in photos, but people who actually know your face and/or how a face moves? They're eventually going to notice the "botox stare". We just don't say anything about it normally, because we're polite about it... but the botox stare is real, and it's easier to spot than you think.

Malkynn

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2019, 06:09:21 PM »
I respectfully disagree with you. I think the over-done cases are easy to spot. I posit that the people who do Botox or fillers in moderate amounts would never hit your radar.

And I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Maybe if I didn't know you from Eve, but I'd still probably notice something was off after talking for a bit. When a facial muscle is paralyzed, it may look fine in photos, but people who actually know your face and/or how a face moves? They're eventually going to notice the "botox stare". We just don't say anything about it normally, because we're polite about it... but the botox stare is real, and it's easier to spot than you think.

Well done Botox should never fully paralyze the face muscles. You would never be able to tell that I had Botox because my face moves totally normally, just less.

I'm literally an expert on facial muscles and I've not been able to tell that some of my colleagues were getting Botox (which btw, is suuuuuper common among the high level professional women in my world).

I can easily tell when it's over done, which is unfortunately common, but when it's done really well, it's incredibly subtle.
For every Courtney Cox out there, there's a Robin Wright looking fucking fantastic.

Doctors over do it because their clients want as intense a result as possible, the same way a lot of boob jobs are really obvious, but the really good doctors do it so that it looks undetectable.

It's the same way that some dental veneers and dentures are blatantly fake looking and some are undetectable. There's a huge amount of artistry and not all artists are equally talented or as good at managing patient expectations.

Besides, how the hell would you ever know the cases that you can't tell???

Kris

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2019, 06:12:37 PM »
I respectfully disagree with you. I think the over-done cases are easy to spot. I posit that the people who do Botox or fillers in moderate amounts would never hit your radar.

And I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Maybe if I didn't know you from Eve, but I'd still probably notice something was off after talking for a bit. When a facial muscle is paralyzed, it may look fine in photos, but people who actually know your face and/or how a face moves? They're eventually going to notice the "botox stare". We just don't say anything about it normally, because we're polite about it... but the botox stare is real, and it's easier to spot than you think.

Well done Botox should never fully paralyze the face muscles. You would never be able to tell that I had Botox because my face moves totally normally, just less.

I'm literally an expert on facial muscles and I've not been able to tell that some of my colleagues were getting Botox (which btw, is suuuuuper common among the high level professional women in my world).

I can easily tell when it's over done, which is unfortunately common, but when it's done really well, it's incredibly subtle.
For every Courtney Cox out there, there's a Robin Wright looking fucking fantastic.

Doctors over do it because their clients want as intense a result as possible, the same way a lot of boob jobs are really obvious, but the really good doctors do it so that it looks undetectable.

It's the same way that some dental veneers and dentures are blatantly fake looking and some are undetectable. There's a huge amount of artistry and not all artists are equally talented or as good at managing patient expectations.

Besides, how the hell would you ever know the cases that you can't tell???

This is true. I know two people who have had Botox who I never would have guessed.

bwall

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2019, 06:13:58 PM »
I've spoken with a couple of women (attorneys) who used botox. It was weird at first, as I didn't know they were on botox. I left the meetings thinking that they were either very very interested in what I had to say and perhaps even wanted to have an affair with me, or they used botox.

Needless to say, I chose the latter.

Apple_Tango

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2019, 06:24:07 PM »
Celebrities don't have magical famous people genetics. They have cosmetic surgeries and Botox. Wild guess but I believe that upwards of 90% of all actresses over the age of 25 use Botox. If you ever find yourself thinking "damn that lady looks good for her age" I would bet That it's either Botox or a "mini" face lift. My own cousins- 29 year old twins, use Botox and they are just regular, non-famous CPAs. My stepmom is 75 and she looks like she's 60 thanks to a face lift. 

Personally, I'm not a fan. It's a toxin- BoTOX. And it makes my family members look weird. It makes actresses look plastic. I think it's useful for medical reasons like excess sweating, or a paralyzed vocal fold. Or maybe for vanity a deep deep dark furrow every once in a while if it is truly life changing for you and your happiness or something.

But my aunt (mother of my twin cousins) now looks like a plastic mannequin. She has an addictive personality, former alcoholic, current shopaholic and plastic surgery that goes too far- peels and creams, abrasions, lasers, Botox, face lifts...it's never enough for her and she has ruined her face. That has totally turned me off. If you have an addictive personality for this stuff I think you need to go cold turkey and let your wrinkles show and learn to love them.

Milizard

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2019, 06:44:15 PM »
There isn't actually anything wrong with doing some minor touching up so you don't look super angry/saggy. If the ability to do so is not insanely expensive and you don't take the cosmetic stuff past the point of "looks nice/normal" then why stop?

I get a facial treatment about 4-ish times a year (due to roseacea) that happens to also promote collagen growth and makes my skin look amazing. I don't see the need to stop, because again, there's nothing wrong with taking care of yourself or choosing to do things that make you look nice, well-rested, and healthy within reason.

I agree that going to extremes trying to look YOUNG when you really aren't any more is not helpful and aging gracefully is the key here. Just enough to look good "for your age" but not like you're trying to be a different age altogether.

I have a few wrinkles. My neck is getting a tiny bit saggy. I stopped dying my hair and it's completely silver. I'm not trying to fool anyone with how old/young I am. I just don't think it necessary to have really bad skin or stop taking good care of it (SPF/moisturizer/occasional treatments) because I'm older.


Oh and 100% agree with Malkynn - your mother is terrible and you definitely need to separate your self-esteem from her nasty judgemental bullshit.
May I ask what the facial treatment is called?  I used to have oily skin that could withstand a lot, but I think I've developed rosacea as I've gotten older and my skin more dry.  I've been to a dermatologist, who had me try several expensive creams that seemed to make things worse. My skin is currently a combination mess that I don't know what to do with.


OP--sorry for the side conversation. If the Botox/fillers give you more life satisfaction than whatever else you might have done with that money, then I think it's worth it. It's a very personal thing that I don't think others can dictate to you.
While I don't personally like the idea of Botox/fillers, I'm not opposed to cosmetic procedures in general. (I've got laser skin resurfacing in the back of my mind for a maybe/someday thing).

@Milizard 

IPL or Intense Pulsed Light or sometimes called Photo Facial. I had to start doing it in my late 20s when diagnosed with roseacea, otherwise the structure of my face would have make me look like W.C. Fields/rampant alcoholic eventually - red face, broken veins (looks similar to varicose veins in legs), lumpy skin, acne, distortion of nose/cheeks.

The treatment involves a thick cooling gel slathered all over your face, eye pad protection and then depending on the overall redness or if they are trying to combat veins/texture but it feels like a very hot rubberband slapping sensation over effected areas. Painful, but it is fast and then no pain after. Healing generally over the next 24 hours with good results after 3-4 treatments (in the beginning you do them every month/3 weeks, then maintaining for me is like a few times a year), and side benefit is collagen production so skin looks better overall for months. When I say "healing" I mean skin starts improving and if you got a tiny bruise type of thing - you don't look like you had work done at all so no scary skin flaking/burns or anything. At most your face looks a tiny bit plumper/redder due to swelling, but it isn't actually noticeable to anyone but yourself.

I go to a licensed dermatologist (never a medispa) as it's also possible to get burned/bruised easily and could cause damage if not done correctly OR if your skin is very sensitive; I am fair skinned and bruise easily so first few deeper treatments I did have some mild bruising, just made sure to do it on a Friday and was completely fine by Monday morning.
Thanks so much for the information.  I'm not sure this would help with most of the issues I'm having now, but I do have some of those veins showing on my nose. My cheeks have calmed down, burning redness wise, bit I'm breaking out in acne again as I'm going into my late 40's.  I'm going to see a dermatologist soon for another issue, so I'll ask them about it then.

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 08:33:39 PM »
I got a procedure last year to help reduce the fat in my double chin. Unfortunately they run in my family (my grandmother in particular had neck that started at her lower jaw and went to her bosom, no chin or jaw to be seen), and I've been on a prescription three times now that has a side effect of adding a double chin. In any case, I was chatting up the nurse to make friendly conversation and I asked her how she liked her job, what was her favorite part, etc. She very enthusiastically said she loved it because she loved helping people. My reaction initially was that it was trite, helping a bunch of rich people try to be more beautiful. She described one patient who suffered from PCOS who came in for excess facial hair and bad acne related to the hormonal imbalance of that condition. Apparently after a few sessions of laser hair reduction she was a different person. Less hair, reduced acne as a side effect, and her personality blossomed with the newfound self confidence of a better outer appearance.

So my position is sure, it's vanity. So is makeup, paying for flattering clothing, my white fillings instead of the amalgam fillings, the money I pay for what I consider a cute haircut instead of just wearing it back in a ponytail, and so many other things in life. Hell, the exercise I do, while certainly helping my mental and physical health, has a certain element of ego about it as well because it makes me happy because I think I look better with a fitter body. We are all going to draw the line differently between what we feel is acceptable vanity and what is over-the-top. Like everything else around here, it is about thinking about your values and making conscious choices to spend money where it brings you the most bang for the buck.

brooklynmoney

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2019, 09:18:02 PM »
Iím just going to wait until itís really bad and then get a facelift hence saving myself years of Botox haha. I feel thatís mustachian.

Daley

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2019, 09:44:39 PM »
You would never be able to tell that I had Botox because my face moves totally normally, just less.

Okay, fine. Let's say I don't notice it with you... a stranger who usually notices even subtle facial droop from well-recovered stroke victims. (Once you know what to look for and see it, you can't unsee it, honestly.) Dollars to doughnuts the people who know you notice something different, though, even if they say nothing or don't know it's botox specifically. "Just less" movement is still a profound change in facial expression for friends and family, especially around a feature of the face that's frequently more expressive than the mouth ever is, doubly so on a region of the face where the muscles are being pumped full of enough botulism toxin to cause them to go sufficiently slack in an area that's normally active enough to cause wrinkles and folding in the skin in the first place.

This isn't even about money. It's about being well-adjusted enough to accept yourself as you are. Something, I'd hope, a psychotherapist would be wholly on board supporting in a sort of "physician, heal thyself" kind of way.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 09:48:04 PM by Daley »

psychomoustache

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2019, 04:00:33 AM »
You guys are amazing, and I knew I was asking the right group... you THINK about things from complex angles. I am going to quote a few of you and respond - maybe in a few posts - bear with me.

Lastly, your mother is a bitch.
I'm sorry, but she's a total bitch if she won't show photos of you because of how your neck looks at fucking 50.

You're a psychotherapist, you know full well that you should have better boundaries with a parent who tries to belittle your appearance. Put up those boundaries, make them solid, and shove your mother's opinion of your appearance in the garbage where it belongs.

I wouldn't call her a bitch (though yes she can behave terribly). She's an immature anxious woman who doesn't want to think, so she keeps the T.V. on all day (watching all sorts of bullshit) but unfortunately for her, she's too smart to escape her brain. She was also a compulsive shopper of make-up, clothes, shoes, and tchotchkes (as we say in Yiddish-land).

 And yes, as a therapist (I'm actually a psychoanalyst) I am very much aware of the extent of her influence on me, even at age 53. This being said the detachment from her values is still a process for me - mostly successful but not without its angst, for better or for worse.

Now I'll have to post another response b/c I have to learn how to manage the board/quotes again...


psychomoustache

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2019, 04:02:09 AM »

I don't think this is a real concern.  You're over 50.  While you're probably still reasonably attractive, your days of getting paid for being a sex kitten are likely at an end.  If they're paying you for work now, it's because you're good at what you do . . . not because the promoters secretly want to hump you.

LOL. Oh bummer, there go those workshop-orgy fantasies.

psychomoustache

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2019, 04:23:33 AM »
And then, aside from the personal reasons, I think there's an argument to be made that playing into overtly sexualized gender roles is probably detrimental to society as a whole.  Like do other young women in your profession look up to you and feel compelled to wear miniskirts and high heels, maybe bend waaay over the copy machine so that gross men can leer at them?  Are you reinforcing subservient gender expectations and teaching young women that their value as professionals is dependent on their ability to entice men with their appearance, their behavior, their youth, their fertility?  That would be pretty fucked up, right?  I realize I'm slippery sloping this argument all to hell, but conceptually I'm not sure that feeling pressure to get botox to be "so damn pretty" is much different than feeling pressure to wear a low cut blouse with no bra.  Who's interests are really being served with these expectations?

Yep, yep yep. And my husband feels the same way you do.

Here I am going to address the issue of being a therapist as well - some of you asked about being a role model for younger women (whom I see in therapy). It's fucking complicated. You (and others) are right- there is no "good reason" for me to look "damn pretty". The women I myself admire most in my field, or in other fields (academic or social or whatever) don't get injections. I asked a psychiatrist colleague of mine her thoughts and she was very much in this vein - that to be vain (ha!) isn't going to serve our work. After I'd talked to her, I vowed to stop it. She's about 57 years old and I've known her for over 20 years. She's beautiful still. She told me to think about the narcissism issues (obviously)... I am ashamed to admit this but I will - she is a medical doctor, I am "just" a psychotherapist.  It's almost as though she has more of a "right" to her ageing process than I do. I recognize this in myself - am working with it - and as long as I'm being brutally honest I am sharing this with you. Yes - there is the underlying idea that my worth has something to do with my looks (see mom's influence in above posts - I was raised this way- not to excuse myself but it's deeply ingrained).

And now - it's a couple of weeks later. Maybe I'm feeling a bit down, there are a lot of changes coming up in my practice - they are good and necessary but not easy. I read a (slightly disgusting) article in the NY Times yesterday about these injection "beauty bars" that set up shop like the blow-dry places - in and out quickly - and the very young (to me) people who are going to them for regular sticks. I felt angry, envious, sad - mostly sad.

All that being said, those of you who get injections and feel fine about them have arguments that resonate too. The money is and isn't an issue for me - it's money I have after all - I am not going into debt or whatever. Yes, I'm going to get older and look older no matter what I do or don't do. I also agree that the window of time where Botox actually looks "nice" (the quotes are for the nay-sayers) isn't that large - maybe over a ten-year period before the rest of your face is hanging off a nice firm forehead. But I appreciate that some of you have experienced the same emotional roller-coaster around this - the same ambivalence, the same trying to figure out what it means even as your deciding to go ahead and do it.

I need to read through some other posts of yours here. Thank you so much for your thoughtful, honest, smart feedback.

Malkynn

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2019, 04:48:14 AM »
You would never be able to tell that I had Botox because my face moves totally normally, just less.

Okay, fine. Let's say I don't notice it with you... a stranger who usually notices even subtle facial droop from well-recovered stroke victims. (Once you know what to look for and see it, you can't unsee it, honestly.) Dollars to doughnuts the people who know you notice something different, though, even if they say nothing or don't know it's botox specifically. "Just less" movement is still a profound change in facial expression for friends and family, especially around a feature of the face that's frequently more expressive than the mouth ever is, doubly so on a region of the face where the muscles are being pumped full of enough botulism toxin to cause them to go sufficiently slack in an area that's normally active enough to cause wrinkles and folding in the skin in the first place.

This isn't even about money. It's about being well-adjusted enough to accept yourself as you are. Something, I'd hope, a psychotherapist would be wholly on board supporting in a sort of "physician, heal thyself" kind of way.

Maybe you missed the part where I said that I'm literally an expert in the muscles of the face? I notice a lot.

Okay, whatever, maybe you are so sensitive that you are able to detect Botox more than even medical professionals whose job it is to have meticulous understanding of facial nerves and muscles.

Let's assume that's true.
So what?

That means that it bothers *you*.
So????

How is that any different than you stating that women shouldn't have neon coloured hair because *you* think it looks weird???

I was literally the first person in this thread to say that Botox and injections are a bad idea if the purpose is to try and prevent the inevitability of aging, because it can become psychologically toxic. So don't mistake my posts as being uncritical of injections.

I dislike obvious injections as much as I hate obvious veneers, but I'm not about to go shit on all people who get veneers, not even the ones who specifically choose to get obvious ones.
That's not my privilege.

Also, this generalization that any change to appearance beyond what nature provides is somehow wrong is absolute nonsense.

Who gets to draw the line as to what's reasonable and okay?
YOU??
Do you get to decide?

Am I allowed to get minor Botox for overactive muscles in my forehead, which also really helps with my chronic tension headaches?

Am I allowed to go through 2 years of painful braces to straighten my teeth?

Am I allowed to get veneers on my two front teeth since they grew in with dark brown stains on them? Due to nature?

Or as someone said above, would I be allowed to replace a silver filling with a white one if I had them?

Am I allowed to keep dyeing my hair bright red because I think it matches my personality better than dark blond?

Am I allowed to remove my body hair?? What about if I start getting facial hair as I age?? Wait!!! Are YOU allowed to remove the hair that nature grows from your face???

Am I allowed to get Lasik because I don't like the look of glasses and I don't tolerate contacts well?

If I could wear them, would I be allowed to wear coloured contacts??

Am I allowed to wear makeup???

Am I allowed to wear underwire bras??? Omg, those things are far more painful than Botox...yikes.

Am I allowed to get a breast lift if I breastfeed 4 children and end up with the equivalent of tennis balls in tube socks hanging from my ribs?

Am I allowed to have my nails painted?

Am I allowed to get a spray tan?

What about tattoos???

I TOTALLY agree that the pressures put on women to look a certain way are insane and toxic, but there's also absolutely nothing wrong with modifying our appearance according to our own desires.

Just because I dye my hair red doesn't mean I can't accept myself without red hair. Just because I chose to cosmetically alter my brown front teeth and get braces doesn't mean I lack self respect for who I am as a person.
*I* am the *only* person who gets to decide what changes to my natural appearance are okay and aren't.

As a passionate and loyal fan of Drag Culture, I see nothing wrong with the use of aesthetics for personal expression.

Where the line is between healthy personal expression and toxic succumbing to social pressure is a VERY VERY personal line and cannot and should not be defined by anyone else.

Malkynn

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2019, 04:50:49 AM »
You guys are amazing, and I knew I was asking the right group... you THINK about things from complex angles. I am going to quote a few of you and respond - maybe in a few posts - bear with me.

Lastly, your mother is a bitch.
I'm sorry, but she's a total bitch if she won't show photos of you because of how your neck looks at fucking 50.

You're a psychotherapist, you know full well that you should have better boundaries with a parent who tries to belittle your appearance. Put up those boundaries, make them solid, and shove your mother's opinion of your appearance in the garbage where it belongs.

I wouldn't call her a bitch (though yes she can behave terribly). She's an immature anxious woman who doesn't want to think, so she keeps the T.V. on all day (watching all sorts of bullshit) but unfortunately for her, she's too smart to escape her brain. She was also a compulsive shopper of make-up, clothes, shoes, and tchotchkes (as we say in Yiddish-land).

 And yes, as a therapist (I'm actually a psychoanalyst) I am very much aware of the extent of her influence on me, even at age 53. This being said the detachment from her values is still a process for me - mostly successful but not without its angst, for better or for worse.

Now I'll have to post another response b/c I have to learn how to manage the board/quotes again...

I get you. I grew up with a similar mom, whom I love dearly, but yes, she can be a total bitch.

Malkynn

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2019, 04:53:18 AM »
And then, aside from the personal reasons, I think there's an argument to be made that playing into overtly sexualized gender roles is probably detrimental to society as a whole.  Like do other young women in your profession look up to you and feel compelled to wear miniskirts and high heels, maybe bend waaay over the copy machine so that gross men can leer at them?  Are you reinforcing subservient gender expectations and teaching young women that their value as professionals is dependent on their ability to entice men with their appearance, their behavior, their youth, their fertility?  That would be pretty fucked up, right?  I realize I'm slippery sloping this argument all to hell, but conceptually I'm not sure that feeling pressure to get botox to be "so damn pretty" is much different than feeling pressure to wear a low cut blouse with no bra.  Who's interests are really being served with these expectations?

Yep, yep yep. And my husband feels the same way you do.

Here I am going to address the issue of being a therapist as well - some of you asked about being a role model for younger women (whom I see in therapy). It's fucking complicated. You (and others) are right- there is no "good reason" for me to look "damn pretty". The women I myself admire most in my field, or in other fields (academic or social or whatever) don't get injections. I asked a psychiatrist colleague of mine her thoughts and she was very much in this vein - that to be vain (ha!) isn't going to serve our work. After I'd talked to her, I vowed to stop it. She's about 57 years old and I've known her for over 20 years. She's beautiful still. She told me to think about the narcissism issues (obviously)... I am ashamed to admit this but I will - she is a medical doctor, I am "just" a psychotherapist.  It's almost as though she has more of a "right" to her ageing process than I do. I recognize this in myself - am working with it - and as long as I'm being brutally honest I am sharing this with you. Yes - there is the underlying idea that my worth has something to do with my looks (see mom's influence in above posts - I was raised this way- not to excuse myself but it's deeply ingrained).

And now - it's a couple of weeks later. Maybe I'm feeling a bit down, there are a lot of changes coming up in my practice - they are good and necessary but not easy. I read a (slightly disgusting) article in the NY Times yesterday about these injection "beauty bars" that set up shop like the blow-dry places - in and out quickly - and the very young (to me) people who are going to them for regular sticks. I felt angry, envious, sad - mostly sad.

All that being said, those of you who get injections and feel fine about them have arguments that resonate too. The money is and isn't an issue for me - it's money I have after all - I am not going into debt or whatever. Yes, I'm going to get older and look older no matter what I do or don't do. I also agree that the window of time where Botox actually looks "nice" (the quotes are for the nay-sayers) isn't that large - maybe over a ten-year period before the rest of your face is hanging off a nice firm forehead. But I appreciate that some of you have experienced the same emotional roller-coaster around this - the same ambivalence, the same trying to figure out what it means even as your deciding to go ahead and do it.

I need to read through some other posts of yours here. Thank you so much for your thoughtful, honest, smart feedback.

Do *you* have a good psychologist to work through these issues with??

That's a lot of heavy stuff going on in that post.
The part about the MD having more right to her aging just gutted me to read.

Pigeon

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2019, 06:53:58 AM »
I think we all have our issues and our limits.  They will pry my DIY hair dye out of my cold, dead hands.  It's easy to do, looks good and is cheap.  I'm willing to do some low-key things for keeping up my appearance, but I don't fool myself that anyone thinks I'm significantly younger than I am.  Personally, I think gray hair ages people more than just about anything else, and it's far more negative for women than it is for men as far as the workplace goes.  But I started going noticeably gray at 25.

But I can't imagine what part of botulism toxin sounds appealing in any way.  I'd much rather have a few wrinkles.

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2019, 07:17:47 AM »

I don't think this is a real concern.  You're over 50.  While you're probably still reasonably attractive, your days of getting paid for being a sex kitten are likely at an end.  If they're paying you for work now, it's because you're good at what you do . . . not because the promoters secretly want to hump you.

LOL. Oh bummer, there go those workshop-orgy fantasies.

I'm sorry for any dreams/aspirations that have been crushed.

:P

Malkynn

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2019, 07:45:39 AM »
I think we all have our issues and our limits.  They will pry my DIY hair dye out of my cold, dead hands.  It's easy to do, looks good and is cheap.  I'm willing to do some low-key things for keeping up my appearance, but I don't fool myself that anyone thinks I'm significantly younger than I am.  Personally, I think gray hair ages people more than just about anything else, and it's far more negative for women than it is for men as far as the workplace goes.  But I started going noticeably gray at 25.

But I can't imagine what part of botulism toxin sounds appealing in any way.  I'd much rather have a few wrinkles.

Well...hair dye is suspected to raise certain cancer risks. That sounds much less appealing to me than Botox, which at worst can cause a temporary headache.

A lot of things are toxic in high enough doses. Vitamin A will kill you.

I work with doctors who inject Botox for severe headaches, and no one ever gets squeemish about it when it's for medical use. It just has a shitty name.

psychomoustache

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2019, 07:47:45 AM »
[

Do *you* have a good psychologist to work through these issues with??

That's a lot of heavy stuff going on in that post.
The part about the MD having more right to her aging just gutted me to read.

Yep, absolutely. It is rather gut-wrenching. As an analyst, I am required to be in personal psychoanalysis. I go 3x a week. Believe me, there is little that I can get away within myself. Not a fun thing. But it's a process...

Parizade

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2019, 08:19:45 AM »
What is your motivation for pursuing a Mustachian lifestyle? For me the prime and most lasting motivator is freedom, specifically freedom from the judgement and manipulation of others.

In one sense that freedom is achieved by having "FU money" but in another sense my ability to accumulate "FU Money" grew with every small decision I made about who I am. Do I really want that Starbucks caramel latte, or will Folgers with skim milk and a few drops of caramel stevia satisfy my craving? Do I really want that new car and the social approval that comes with it, or can I be strong enough in myself to continue driving a car with a few rust spots? Success was the result of many small "FU" decisions along the way, and each time I was able to determine what really mattered to me my sense of self became stronger. Now I am FI, soon to be RE, and my sense of who I am has never been stronger.

You are facing one of these decisions now. Who are YOU, what decision will support your sense of self, and who do you need to tell to FO? I'm not talking about getting in someone's face and cursing at them, I'm talking about those voices that live in your head that are causing your cognitive dissonance. Which voice needs to be told firmly to SHUT UP?

Maybe you need to silence the internal voice that is shaming you for being vain. As an older woman I can relate to your struggle. I don't worry about looking cute or sexy, I worry about looking scary (think Ms Trunchbull from Matilda). Being tall and athletic as a young woman is attractive, it gets trickier with age. So I spend some time and money on my looks. You don't like it? FU!

Maybe you need to silence the voices that are telling you to spend money on cosmetic products that violate your internal sense of right and wrong. Now that I am FI (soon to be RE) my livelihood is no longer dependent on whether a potential client thinks I look appropriately professional. Consequently, I refuse to wear "feminine" shoes that destroy my feet and spine no matter how sexy or professional you think they are. You don't like it. FU.

In my mind the question is not so much "do I have forum permission to use botox." The question you need to be asking is "who am I and what really matters most to me?" The answer is different for everyone on this forum, so no one else can answer it for you. Once you find the answer for yourself you need to slam the door on any voice (internal or external) that tries to tell you that you are "wrong" to be who you are.

Pigeon

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2019, 09:10:24 AM »
I think we all have our issues and our limits.  They will pry my DIY hair dye out of my cold, dead hands.  It's easy to do, looks good and is cheap.  I'm willing to do some low-key things for keeping up my appearance, but I don't fool myself that anyone thinks I'm significantly younger than I am.  Personally, I think gray hair ages people more than just about anything else, and it's far more negative for women than it is for men as far as the workplace goes.  But I started going noticeably gray at 25.

But I can't imagine what part of botulism toxin sounds appealing in any way.  I'd much rather have a few wrinkles.

Well...hair dye is suspected to raise certain cancer risks. That sounds much less appealing to me than Botox, which at worst can cause a temporary headache.

A lot of things are toxic in high enough doses. Vitamin A will kill you.

I work with doctors who inject Botox for severe headaches, and no one ever gets squeemish about it when it's for medical use. It just has a shitty name.

No, botox can cause more than a temporary headache.  https://www.karger.com/article/FullText/370245

I've looked at the research on hair dye and cancer and in my opinion, and that of my doctors, it's not compelling.  As I said, we all have our limits. 

Malkynn

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2019, 10:05:28 AM »
I think we all have our issues and our limits.  They will pry my DIY hair dye out of my cold, dead hands.  It's easy to do, looks good and is cheap.  I'm willing to do some low-key things for keeping up my appearance, but I don't fool myself that anyone thinks I'm significantly younger than I am.  Personally, I think gray hair ages people more than just about anything else, and it's far more negative for women than it is for men as far as the workplace goes.  But I started going noticeably gray at 25.

But I can't imagine what part of botulism toxin sounds appealing in any way.  I'd much rather have a few wrinkles.

Well...hair dye is suspected to raise certain cancer risks. That sounds much less appealing to me than Botox, which at worst can cause a temporary headache.

A lot of things are toxic in high enough doses. Vitamin A will kill you.

I work with doctors who inject Botox for severe headaches, and no one ever gets squeemish about it when it's for medical use. It just has a shitty name.

No, botox can cause more than a temporary headache.  https://www.karger.com/article/FullText/370245

I've looked at the research on hair dye and cancer and in my opinion, and that of my doctors, it's not compelling.  As I said, we all have our limits.

Ack. Thanks for the link.

partgypsy

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2019, 10:35:51 AM »
I think this is a personal question, and if your budget allows it and it has a high benefit to cost ratio, then I am not going to judge you for that choice. I mean, the preference for youth in society is undeniable. Even if people say it doesn't affect your career or how people treat you, people make all kinds of subconscious decisions about you that they may not be aware of.

I am not a fashion plate but as time has gone on I have tried to be more aware how I present myself. People in my office range from very casual hiking or gym shoes outfits (mostly the statisticians, IT people) and some RA, coordinators dress like how I did, basically try to dress office in the least expensive way possible, men's resale shop shirts and the same pants 4 days a week. And then there are (especially the administrative group) dressed really nice and professionally, seem like they must have an infinite number of new outfits. So, I'm not going to be the fashion plate but not how I used to dress (bare minimum).

The things I notice more than a few wrinkles, is how someone carries themselves. Do they look down, schlump? Do they seem excessively nervous or ill at ease? Do they have good posture and a sense of confidence, ready smile?
I am also noticing when people accessorize. That not only do they have a presentable outfit and non-scuffed shoes, they took the time to wear a cute bracelet or scarf. That makes people look put together.
So for me at this time, doing exercise routines and yoga, and that kind of body confidence and relaxation, (as well as spending another 100-200 on clothes a year) I feel helps my appearance more than injections would. But if you have those things covered already then it's your body.

The only thing I and other people caution you, is that there is a lot of business preying on women's fears of looking old. Plastic surgery, expensive cosmetics, you name it. Don't let self-doubt lead you down a slippery path of surgeries or really expensive elixers, that really are not mustachian and really not that body positive. Health is beauty. Focus on the health part over the beauty.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 10:39:29 AM by partgypsy »

talltexan

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2019, 10:55:38 AM »

I don't think this is a real concern.  You're over 50.  While you're probably still reasonably attractive, your days of getting paid for being a sex kitten are likely at an end.  If they're paying you for work now, it's because you're good at what you do . . . not because the promoters secretly want to hump you.

LOL. Oh bummer, there go those workshop-orgy fantasies.

I'm sorry for any dreams/aspirations that have been crushed.

:P

I was soooo going to sign up for workshops expecting like this.

psychomoustache

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2019, 01:33:34 PM »
What is your motivation for pursuing a Mustachian lifestyle? For me the prime and most lasting motivator is freedom, specifically freedom from the judgement and manipulation of others.


In my mind the question is not so much "do I have forum permission to use botox." The question you need to be asking is "who am I and what really matters most to me?" The answer is different for everyone on this forum, so no one else can answer it for you. Once you find the answer for yourself you need to slam the door on any voice (internal or external) that tries to tell you that you are "wrong" to be who you are.

These points were helpful and excellent. Do I want forum "permission"? I hadn't thought of it that way but I suppose there is that. I think I wanted this exact sort of feedback (which you and others have given in spades). What is this for, who is this for???

I am on this forum because I work for myself, and though I love what I do (always have) and want to work for a long while yet (not a problem for me) I hate the pressure that comes (as you said) with having to "sell myself". This profession is draining. It's expensive just to maintain it (aforementioned supervision and personal analysis, then taxes in France as a self-employed person). It's stressful because though at times I have a lot of patients or analysands, other times things slow down - even grind to a complete halt in the summer months. This week, for example, is slow because there are vacation days scattered throughout the month of May here. Tomorrow is a holiday - people cancelled their Tuesday evening appointments... and so it goes...

I am lucky because my husband makes the money we live on. I make the money we sock away, and are using to pay down the mortgage faster.

I need to understand my motives to understand those I work with - other therapists may do it differently. The Botox issue is part of this. But the WHY of Mustachianism is about the things you mention. FU money, and freedom from the judgement and manipulation of others. One could say this is also the goal of psychotherapy (without the financial part - quoique...)

I don't want to be intimidated by an empty schedule. I want to pursue other things - writing, hiking, dance classes (though these are expensive) without feeling like a failure because the patient load has gone down (yet again). I would like a life where an empty day isn't cause for a hypomanic reaction of furious networking and scheming for more workshops or whatever (though I will miss those orgies ; ) ).

I would like to work because I love the work, and not to prove I'm successful because I have this or that many people I'm seeing, and therefore am "killing it" or whatever nonsense bullshit.

Writing that helped me to remember why I'm in this forum, and why I started back in 2013 - and why I'm back now. Thank you for that.

I have a Botox appointment next week and I'll probably keep it, but hearing your feedback has helped me feel more at peace with that decision. The lady I go to (a doctor) has a light touch and a good attitude. She tells me that women shouldn't look so closely at their faces, and she sometimes refuses to inject the paranoid and overwrought...

Here's how I do the looks thing. I like nice clothes and buy good pieces that go with everything that I wear for a few years (no more fast fashion). I don't have grey hair yet, but I get highlights once in a while. I wear drugstore make-up, except for the foundation which is fancy. I hate high heels and they hate me back. I love dresses and girly stuff. I no longer buy jewellery - I have just a few things I always wear. I feel like I have more than enough, and though it's not as minimalist or mustachian as it could be, it's a comfortable level for me. I wear nice jeans for work or a dress. I'm not overweight, I'm not really anything exceptional except for very curly hair. That is another story that isn't nearly as interesting as the Botox discussion.

I actually am loving being in my 50's in so many other ways. So this should be my biggest problem (ha!). As my tree-hugging anarchist-hippie eldest son would say - "first-world problems, mom".

G-dog

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2019, 02:08:41 PM »
I really enjoyed this respectful discussion - it could be applied to so many things, not just to Botox, or not to Botox.

We are so often our harshest critic - I hate that, but do it all the time.

AnswerIs42

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2019, 05:48:17 PM »
Apparently I'm in the minority that finds this whole thing gross.
You're not alone. There have been quite a few "has the forum gone soft?" threads here of late, but I never thought I'd see people defending paying money to get deliberately injected with toxins in an attempt to look younger on this forum. If that's not facepunch worthy, then what is?

That's a lot of heavy stuff going on in that post.
The part about the MD having more right to her aging just gutted me to read.
+100, my jaw dropped at that one.

jeninco

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2019, 07:27:16 PM »
Apparently I'm in the minority that finds this whole thing gross.
You're not alone. There have been quite a few "has the forum gone soft?" threads here of late, but I never thought I'd see people defending paying money to get deliberately injected with toxins in an attempt to look younger on this forum. If that's not facepunch worthy, then what is?

It's ... complicated. I've been noticing a bunch of gnarly male/female dynamics on the forum lately: especially younger man/older woman.  The sartorial equivalent of schlepping around in ripped T-shirts and tevas may work for you when you're a 20-something (or even 30-something, or older) year old white guy, but it's gonna seriously impact your ability to function in the world when you're a 50-something woman.  Or if you're certain kinds of minority. And those are just the first two examples I can think of.

As I see it, a big part of the point in the forums here is "Is this spending consistent with my values?", followed by "is this something I need to do for whatever reason?" If the OP has a reason, like "I'm pretty sure looking old and wrinkly affects my professional relationships" then, while I agree it's worth examining, if it affects her earning power it might be a cost of working. Same as me buying replacement laptops every so often, or backup drives.

To be clear, it's not the way I wish or want the world to be, but criticizing the OP for feeling that that's how it is now feels unhelpful.

That's a lot of heavy stuff going on in that post.
The part about the MD having more right to her aging just gutted me to read.
+100, my jaw dropped at that one.

That made me sad, too. But it's also, maybe not an inaccurate reflection of society? Because doctors are more technical, so it matters less what they look like?

I'm budgeting for eyelid surgery my own self -- every women in my family who has lived long enough has required it (because our eyelids droop enough to make it hard to see, eventually). Most have opted for minor facelifts at the same time -- not sure what I'll decide when my turn comes around.

(Edited to get the quoting right)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 09:32:05 PM by jeninco »

OtherJen

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2019, 07:50:02 PM »
Apparently I'm in the minority that finds this whole thing gross.
You're not alone. There have been quite a few "has the forum gone soft?" threads here of late, but I never thought I'd see people defending paying money to get deliberately injected with toxins in an attempt to look younger on this forum. If that's not facepunch worthy, then what is?

It's ... complicated. I've been noticing a bunch of gnarly male/female dynamics on the forum lately: especially younger man/older woman.  The sartorial equivalent of schlepping around in ripped T-shirts and tevas may work for you when you're a 20-something (or even 30-something, or older) year old white guy, but it's gonna seriously impact your ability to function in the world when you're a 50-something woman.  Or if you're certain kinds of minority. And those are just the first two examples I can think of.

As I see it, a big part of the point in the forums here is "Is this spending consistent with my values?", followed by "is this something I need to do for whatever reason?" If the OP has a reason, like "I'm pretty sure looking old and wrinkly affects my professional relationships" then, while I agree it's worth examining, if it affects her earning power it might be a cost of working. Same as me buying replacement laptops every so often, or backup drives.

To be clear, it's not the way I wish or want the world to be, but criticizing the OP for feeling that that's how it is now feels unhelpful.

This. All of this.

partgypsy

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2019, 08:17:08 PM »
The main thing, the OP didn't just go and get botox. She has been examining the reasons and emotions WHY she wants to get botox. And I think MMM is all about examining our preconceptions and beliefs to see, does this really align with my values or not.

So sorry Sol, if you think it is "gross". There are a number of men who think by saying they are not a fan of makeup, high heels, expensive clothes, botox think they are being somehow supportive of females, when it is just another judgemental and paternalistic twist on what should women do, and not do. It's like the virtuous woman versus the fallen women deal. 

And honestly, a lot of women are just as harsh if not more harsh. Egads she is showing a blemish! Whats with the unibrow, look at that cellulite. And on the other side, she's wearing too much makeup, she's trying too hard, did she have work done, she looks like sh*t. 

Either way, it's external pressure from other people trying to tell you how to be. And F-ing ridiculous either direction.


Parizade

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2019, 08:31:06 PM »
I would like to work because I love the work, and not to prove I'm successful because I have this or that many people I'm seeing, and therefore am "killing it" or whatever nonsense bullshit.

Writing that helped me to remember why I'm in this forum, and why I started back in 2013 - and why I'm back now. Thank you for that.

I have a Botox appointment next week and I'll probably keep it, but hearing your feedback has helped me feel more at peace with that decision.

I'm glad my post was helpful for you, and I'm glad you are feeling more peace. And thank you for answering my question, I can see who you are more clearly now:

You are an independent businesswoman working toward FI in a profession you love. Your business has high overhead expenses that include maintaining a professional and appealing image in order to stay competitve. You realize that this is not ideal but accept that it is the necessary reality for now.

And anyone who doesn't like it can FO ;-)

Parizade

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2019, 08:45:13 PM »
Apparently I'm in the minority that finds this whole thing gross.
You're not alone. There have been quite a few "has the forum gone soft?" threads here of late, but I never thought I'd see people defending paying money to get deliberately injected with toxins in an attempt to look younger on this forum. If that's not facepunch worthy, then what is?

It's ... complicated. I've been noticing a bunch of gnarly male/female dynamics on the forum lately: especially younger man/older woman.  The sartorial equivalent of schlepping around in ripped T-shirts and tevas may work for you when you're a 20-something (or even 30-something, or older) year old white guy, but it's gonna seriously impact your ability to function in the world when you're a 50-something woman.  Or if you're certain kinds of minority. And those are just the first two examples I can think of.

As I see it, a big part of the point in the forums here is "Is this spending consistent with my values?", followed by "is this something I need to do for whatever reason?" If the OP has a reason, like "I'm pretty sure looking old and wrinkly affects my professional relationships" then, while I agree it's worth examining, if it affects her earning power it might be a cost of working. Same as me buying replacement laptops every so often, or backup drives.

To be clear, it's not the way I wish or want the world to be, but criticizing the OP for feeling that that's how it is now feels unhelpful.

This. All of this.

Yep

NewPerspective

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2019, 08:58:18 PM »
I do Botox.  I can guarantee that people don't know I do it. My face still moves normally.  In my case it lifts my eyebrows a bit, I have hooded eyes that are getting heavier as I get older.  It is just a slight bit of perking up of my eyes. I also smooth out the "elevens" between my eyes.  I can still scowl, it just isn't as deep. 

As stated above, I see it the same as wearing make up, doing my hair, getting Invisalign.  What has really surprised me is the amount of judgement that comes from other women about it.  I tend to be pretty open and I'm willing to tell anyone about it (I'm not trying to fool anyone about my age really, and honestly, I think I still look my age for the most part), but some of the reactions have made me not be so forthcoming.

It isn't for everyone and I can understand why someone wouldn't want to do it, I don't understand why there is so much judgement towards people that do it.

Also, I realize that aging is a losing a battle, in the end they are all basically going to look the same. But for now, I'm ok doing what I can now to enhance the features I have. 

sol

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Re: Trying to come back to MMM...you are going to smack me for this.
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2019, 09:32:10 PM »
So sorry Sol, if you think it is "gross". There are a number of men who think by saying they are not a fan of makeup, high heels, expensive clothes, botox think they are being somehow supportive of females, when it is just another judgemental and paternalistic twist on what should women do, and not do. It's like the virtuous woman versus the fallen women deal.

You've grossly misinterpreted my post.

I think that's probably fine, and that I shouldn't correct you.