Author Topic: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?  (Read 2818 times)

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4990
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2020, 09:33:31 AM »
The 2022 senate map is not as bad for Dems as you might think. Mostly they all lost in 2016. That said, it all depends on how big any majority Dems might win in the senate is this year. 1 vote margin makes even an ok map an emergency.

I heard someone today say that there's an idea of trying to make a state of of the Navajo nation. I wonder if some really out there ideas will be floated for the sole purpose of allowing biden to shoot them down and feel like he's being moderate? Honestly I still expect him to shoot most things down except a covid relief package and some kind of voting rights package. Then they'll try to do something big that they try to negotiate in good faith on with the Republicans and we can just start the clock over from 2010, because Democrats do not learn.

Like a level, Biden always finds the (Democratic) middle. He's done that his entire life.

If the party pulls left, Biden will follow. I hope.

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2020, 10:45:31 AM »
The 2022 senate map is not as bad for Dems as you might think. Mostly they all lost in 2016. That said, it all depends on how big any majority Dems might win in the senate is this year. 1 vote margin makes even an ok map an emergency.

I heard someone today say that there's an idea of trying to make a state of of the Navajo nation. I wonder if some really out there ideas will be floated for the sole purpose of allowing biden to shoot them down and feel like he's being moderate? Honestly I still expect him to shoot most things down except a covid relief package and some kind of voting rights package. Then they'll try to do something big that they try to negotiate in good faith on with the Republicans and we can just start the clock over from 2010, because Democrats do not learn.

I don't really understand why leftists bash moderates so much. "Moderate" is just a political term for "normal person." The typical American is not an extremist of any kind but likes to find the middle-of-the-road approach that works for most people and has enough support to get bills passed. It makes no sense to pull too hard to the left or the right when it results in no legislation being passed, which is pretty much what has happened for the last (at a minimum) seven years. The typical American is okay with compromise if it means they get at least some of what they want. Compromise is not a dirty word. It's the way you get things done.

I think leftists got the wrong message from 2016. The real story in 2016 was that leftists decided to parrot talking points from Breitbart to accidentally help Trump win the White House because Hillary Clinton refused to tell everybody that she was going to give them things it would have been impossible to deliver on.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2020, 10:59:38 AM »
I don't really understand why leftists bash moderates so much. "Moderate" is just a political term for "normal person." The typical American is not an extremist of any kind but likes to find the middle-of-the-road approach that works for most people and has enough support to get bills passed. It makes no sense to pull too hard to the left or the right when it results in no legislation being passed, which is pretty much what has happened for the last (at a minimum) seven years. The typical American is okay with compromise if it means they get at least some of what they want. Compromise is not a dirty word. It's the way you get things done.

Lol, what? Republicans are the ones who despise "compromise" and "moderates", not "leftists". Republicans openly and intentionally engage in complete obstruction when they are not in power. Any Republican congressman who is not far-right is quickly primaried as a "Republican In Name Only".

What Sui actually said was that it's pointless to try to compromise with Republicans, because they don't want to compromise they want to obstruct, which is completely true. And from that you got "leftists hate moderates and compromise"?

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2108
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2020, 12:39:03 PM »
What Sui actually said was that it's pointless to try to compromise with Republicans, because they don't want to compromise they want to obstruct, which is completely true. And from that you got "leftists hate moderates and compromise"?
And not only that, but they use the rules to chain Dems (who always try to act by the rules) but ignore them totally when it is convenient. (If you need an example, just look at that judge spectacle - preventing a judge elected 9(?) month before an election if it doesn't suit them, but pressing one through with all means before the old body is cold if it is in their interest).
That has been the modus operandi for what, 20 years? 30? And is one of the main reasons why people all over the world are saying "Our politicians might be corrupt or stupid, or both, but at least not as bad as the ones in the USA!"

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2020, 01:56:48 PM »
Hmmm, now it's looking like Trump favors stimulus, but McConnell--who doesn't expect to lose his Senate seat--is the hold-out. Could it be that McConnell would rather keep people hungry and angry during a Biden first term to make sure it's Biden's only term?

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3178
  • Location: South Korea
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2020, 05:09:31 PM »
Hmmm, now it's looking like Trump favors stimulus, but McConnell--who doesn't expect to lose his Senate seat--is the hold-out. Could it be that McConnell would rather keep people hungry and angry during a Biden first term to make sure it's Biden's only term?

Every day of the week, yes.

I don't really understand why leftists bash moderates so much. "Moderate" is just a political term for "normal person." The typical American is not an extremist of any kind but likes to find the middle-of-the-road approach that works for most people and has enough support to get bills passed. It makes no sense to pull too hard to the left or the right when it results in no legislation being passed, which is pretty much what has happened for the last (at a minimum) seven years. The typical American is okay with compromise if it means they get at least some of what they want. Compromise is not a dirty word. It's the way you get things done.

Lol, what? Republicans are the ones who despise "compromise" and "moderates", not "leftists". Republicans openly and intentionally engage in complete obstruction when they are not in power. Any Republican congressman who is not far-right is quickly primaried as a "Republican In Name Only".

What Sui actually said was that it's pointless to try to compromise with Republicans, because they don't want to compromise they want to obstruct, which is completely true. And from that you got "leftists hate moderates and compromise"?

McConnell has gone on the record stating his purpose in life is to make it impossible for Democrats in power to get anything done.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2020, 05:13:38 PM »
McConnell has gone on the record stating his purpose in life is to make it impossible for Democrats in power to get anything done.

True. It's not just McConnell though, he's just happy to be the fall guy because he's in a safe seat. It was Newt Gingrich before him in the house. It will be someone else after McConnell is gone. It's the entire party. They campaign on the idea that government is bad and inefficient and poorly run and should be destroyed, and then they use every bit of power they have when they get elected to ensure that it's true. That's their goal. Why would they compromise? If they compromise then the government would actually get stuff done, which is not what Republicans want.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 05:17:18 PM by sherr »

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2020, 05:49:25 PM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2020, 06:01:09 PM »
While I agree with you in general, there is an obvious counterpoint: the ACA.

The ACA was not a far-left divisive issue, it is actually a very moderate solution to a problem that very much affected the entire country at the time. It was such a Republican idea in fact that the Republicans haven't been able to come up with a better replacement a decade later. It didn't matter. The Republicans characterized it as a far-left divisive issue, still to this day are calling it that, and managed to convince enough of the population to retake the House in the mid-terms and prevent Obama from doing much of anything else for the next 6 years.

So if the Republicans are going to scream SOCIALISM! (oh I'm sorry, these days the scare-word is MARXISM!) at everything you do anyway, then you might as well do what you want and not worry about what Republicans think.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 06:05:50 PM by sherr »

NaN

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2020, 08:16:00 PM »
One strong reason Democrats are in this mess is because Obama did not move hard enough to the left in 2009 when he had the votes in the Senate. Had the Democratic majority pursued DC statehood by removing the filibuster on statehood votes and pushed a bunch of judges through earlier without the filibuster (as they did in 2013, only until after Obama's reelection) the Democrats would not nearly be in as bad of shape as they are now. McConnell realized this, and took advantage of it. And guess what, he won based on the fact both him and his friends are still in office. Harry Reid lost whatever political game was being played. Really though, President Obama got schooled and had no spine early on.

As much as I liked Obama as a person, he left the Democratic party much worse than how he found it.

The only saving grace for Trump is McConnell. The Republican Senators since 2014 have been about as powerful of a Senate in modern history. While we focus on the Presidential election nonstop, the Senate race is almost equally as important.


LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2108
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2020, 03:44:19 AM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

Correct me if I am wrong. En enclave is a part of a state that is incircled by another state.
We don't meed to take that literally, but the point is the encirclement.
As far as I know the liberal (Democrats) areas are the costs and the big lake area.
And in the North is the even more liberal Canada while the south is socialist Mexico.
So for me it looks definitely like the Reps are living in an enclave.
Wrong?


Also many things that are labeled "divisive issues" - and that mostly comes from the Republicans - are not at all devisive. There is just a loud minority making it so.
The most rediculous example is imho the kneeling down before a sports game. Trump made that sound like it's a declaration of independence from humanity.
I seriously wondered if there will be people blowing themselfs up shouting Allah... you have to stand!!

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2020, 04:16:22 AM »
While I agree with you in general, there is an obvious counterpoint: the ACA.

The ACA was not a far-left divisive issue, it is actually a very moderate solution to a problem that very much affected the entire country at the time. It was such a Republican idea in fact that the Republicans haven't been able to come up with a better replacement a decade later. It didn't matter. The Republicans characterized it as a far-left divisive issue, still to this day are calling it that, and managed to convince enough of the population to retake the House in the mid-terms and prevent Obama from doing much of anything else for the next 6 years.

So if the Republicans are going to scream SOCIALISM! (oh I'm sorry, these days the scare-word is MARXISM!) at everything you do anyway, then you might as well do what you want and not worry about what Republicans think.

I think that's what the Democrats did, by passing the ACA with zero Republican votes.  Where they faltered was in not doing a good job explaining and selling the ACA to the people, which allowed the Republicans to draw a socialist caricature of it, which led to the loss of Congress.  Eventually, when the ACA actually started working, people's opinions changed, and the Democrats ultimately benefited from passing a law that has the support of mainstream Americans.  Protecting that law is why the Dems were able to take the House in 2018, and it's a big part of why they have a chance at making gains now.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2020, 04:23:51 AM »
One strong reason Democrats are in this mess is because Obama did not move hard enough to the left in 2009 when he had the votes in the Senate. Had the Democratic majority pursued DC statehood by removing the filibuster on statehood votes and pushed a bunch of judges through earlier without the filibuster (as they did in 2013, only until after Obama's reelection) the Democrats would not nearly be in as bad of shape as they are now. McConnell realized this, and took advantage of it. And guess what, he won based on the fact both him and his friends are still in office. Harry Reid lost whatever political game was being played. Really though, President Obama got schooled and had no spine early on.

As much as I liked Obama as a person, he left the Democratic party much worse than how he found it.

The only saving grace for Trump is McConnell. The Republican Senators since 2014 have been about as powerful of a Senate in modern history. While we focus on the Presidential election nonstop, the Senate race is almost equally as important.

Reid didn't need to remove the filibuster in 2009, because the Democrats had a supermajority then.  I think he was wise to wait until after the 2012 election to remove it on judicial appointments, so as not to inflame the electorate.  And I don't think it is necessarily an open-an-shut case that ramming through DC statehood would have produced an insurmountable Democratic Senate majority.  Yes, they likely would have gained two seats in DC, but how many would they have lost in more moderate states?

These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2020, 04:25:23 AM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

Correct me if I am wrong. En enclave is a part of a state that is incircled by another state.
We don't meed to take that literally, but the point is the encirclement.
As far as I know the liberal (Democrats) areas are the costs and the big lake area.
And in the North is the even more liberal Canada while the south is socialist Mexico.
So for me it looks definitely like the Reps are living in an enclave.
Wrong?


Also many things that are labeled "divisive issues" - and that mostly comes from the Republicans - are not at all devisive. There is just a loud minority making it so.
The most rediculous example is imho the kneeling down before a sports game. Trump made that sound like it's a declaration of independence from humanity.
I seriously wondered if there will be people blowing themselfs up shouting Allah... you have to stand!!

Not sure of your point in arguing semantics around the word enclave.

I agree that Republicans are masters of defining sane, moderate policies as divisive.  The Democrats need to do a much better job of countering such misinformation.

NaN

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2020, 07:23:35 AM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2020, 07:32:14 AM »
And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing.

Why would you assume McConnell has to either find dirt or be convincing? This is how the entire Republican party wants their politicians to behave. McConnell is just a convenient safe-seat fall guy to take the heat off of everyone else, they'd be doing the exact same things without him.

NaN

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 115
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2020, 08:02:25 AM »
Why would you assume McConnell has to either find dirt or be convincing? This is how the entire Republican party wants their politicians to behave. McConnell is just a convenient safe-seat fall guy to take the heat off of everyone else, they'd be doing the exact same things without him.

I disagree. McConnell will go down as one of the most successful political leaders ever. Others could have behaved similarly. But McConnell has led the Republicans with very few hiccups, if any.

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2108
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2020, 09:53:48 AM »
It is true that Republicans are largely obstructionists with whom reasonable compromise is generally not possible.  But it does not follow that the appropriate response from Democrats is to move as far to the left as possible.  They should focus on accomplishing things that most (or at least a plurality of) Americans want to see accomplished.  Do that without Republican help if necessary, but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves.  That is the way to get re-elected so that they can keep accomplishing good things for the American people.  Focusing on divisive issues and taking the most liberal positions possible is the surest way to lose Congress in the mid-terms.

Correct me if I am wrong. En enclave is a part of a state that is incircled by another state.
We don't meed to take that literally, but the point is the encirclement.
As far as I know the liberal (Democrats) areas are the costs and the big lake area.
And in the North is the even more liberal Canada while the south is socialist Mexico.
So for me it looks definitely like the Reps are living in an enclave.
Wrong?


Also many things that are labeled "divisive issues" - and that mostly comes from the Republicans - are not at all devisive. There is just a loud minority making it so.
The most rediculous example is imho the kneeling down before a sports game. Trump made that sound like it's a declaration of independence from humanity.
I seriously wondered if there will be people blowing themselfs up shouting Allah... you have to stand!!

Not sure of your point in arguing semantics around the word enclave.

I agree that Republicans are masters of defining sane, moderate policies as divisive.  The Democrats need to do a much better job of countering such misinformation.
Call it my philisophical streak or my love for words or whatever.
I am just curious how you got to that word. It can't be geographically, as I have shown. It can't be politically, because afaik that is not true, Dems have never been closed to outsiders. And if you put the meaning of defensive into enclave, it gets even more unlikely, because for Decades now it were the Reps that were in defensive battles - at least if you measure public support.
So why choose this unusual word?

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2020, 10:03:01 AM »
This is fairly common English usage of "enclave". Definition 2: "any small group or area enclosed within a larger one".

The "liberal" group being enclosed within the larger "Democrats" group for example. Which is itself enclosed inside the larger "Americans" group. Or geographically: liberal cities enclosed inside the larger rural areas.

I didn't see anything unusual about his use of "enclave".

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2020, 02:54:16 PM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

I agree with your first paragraph in part, in that the Democrats didn't have much to show for the short period of time when they had complete control of Congress and the Presidency.  And although I wish the ACA had been a better piece of legislation, I don't agree that it was a political loser.  It represented monumental progress in the battle against our law-of-the-jungle health care system, and it moved the political zeitgeist enough that much of the country does not want to go back to pre-ACA days.  Once the 2010 mid-terms happened, the Democrats were dead in the water for accomplishing legislation, and the same for judicial appointments after the 2014 mid-terms.  At that point they couldn't have retaliated with their own hardball tactics whether they wanted to or not.

If/when the Democrats are back in control, they will need to use some hardball tactics of their own if they expect to get anything done.  The filibuster will have to go.  Which is a shame, because then they will have no defense against bad legislation the next time the Republicans are in control.  But it has to be done.  However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.


LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2108
  • Location: Germany
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #70 on: Today at 04:17:43 AM »
This is fairly common English usage of "enclave". Definition 2: "any small group or area enclosed within a larger one".

The "liberal" group being enclosed within the larger "Democrats" group for example. Which is itself enclosed inside the larger "Americans" group. Or geographically: liberal cities enclosed inside the larger rural areas.

I didn't see anything unusual about his use of "enclave".
So with "but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves." you meant "things that also play well outside big cities"?

Hm... I am afraid that is not possible. I think in that case it is still not a (primarily) Dems/Reps based difference, but city/rural, who tend to vote that way.
Talking about liberal enclaves would mean you have switched couse and effect. City people vote Dems because they have a policy that is appealing to town dwellers. If they start doing things that appeal to rural people, it would mean towns would not vote for them.

But I guess we can end that discussion here.

Quote
However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.
But here we are again at the successes of the Rep's spin doctoring the politics.
Many Republican voters loved the ACA, because they were dependend on it, but they loathed Obamacare.
It's unbelievably hard to inform people that don't want to be informed and take all "information" they need from Fox News.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #71 on: Today at 08:01:13 AM »
So with "but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves." you meant "things that also play well outside big cities"?

Hm... I am afraid that is not possible. I think in that case it is still not a (primarily) Dems/Reps based difference, but city/rural, who tend to vote that way.
Talking about liberal enclaves would mean you have switched couse and effect. City people vote Dems because they have a policy that is appealing to town dwellers. If they start doing things that appeal to rural people, it would mean towns would not vote for them.

But I guess we can end that discussion here.

The English language is simply not as precise as you are assuming it is. :)
You have to go for understanding the general meaning instead of nit-picking details of word usage. Which words you use adds flavor, adds shades of meaning, but not at the expense of the larger more obvious meaning.

He simply meant that Dems should do things that are popular with most people, instead of only playing to a fraction of their own base.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #72 on: Today at 08:56:40 AM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

I agree with your first paragraph in part, in that the Democrats didn't have much to show for the short period of time when they had complete control of Congress and the Presidency.  And although I wish the ACA had been a better piece of legislation, I don't agree that it was a political loser.  It represented monumental progress in the battle against our law-of-the-jungle health care system, and it moved the political zeitgeist enough that much of the country does not want to go back to pre-ACA days.  Once the 2010 mid-terms happened, the Democrats were dead in the water for accomplishing legislation, and the same for judicial appointments after the 2014 mid-terms.  At that point they couldn't have retaliated with their own hardball tactics whether they wanted to or not.

If/when the Democrats are back in control, they will need to use some hardball tactics of their own if they expect to get anything done.  The filibuster will have to go.  Which is a shame, because then they will have no defense against bad legislation the next time the Republicans are in control.  But it has to be done.  However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.

My 2 cents....

1. Democrats should ALWAYS do what is right for most Americans - city and rural areas alike.
2. The above does not, in my opinion, include pandering to any specific group or demographic segment. This means actively working to break the stranglehold that < 30% Americans have over appointing judges to the court(s) who has a penchant for modifying (errrr.. "re-interpreting" using the "originalist" philosophy) the constitution.
3. There are many other right things (e.g. voting rights, removing qualified immunity etc) that are pretty non-controversial, but will be made into controversial issues by the right-wing propaganda outlets.
4. I would prioritize structural issues first, and then prioritize things that benefits the most Americans (e.g. public option, especially for rural areas).

Because of #3, Dems can expect a backlash anyway, whatever they do, even if they extend better healthcare to rural areas via public option. 2022 senate map is very favorable for Dems, so they will likely keep control for 4 years. But expect 2024 senate to flip if the disenfranchisement of the majority (30% of the population controlling 70% of the votes) continue. Hence the importance of structural issues.

tl;dr
Doing the right thing is not correlated with support from the people who are benefitting from that right thing!! Dems should do that anyway!




jrhampt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Connecticut
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #73 on: Today at 09:24:04 AM »
These things have to be done delicately.  Generally, you want to follow your opponent's outrageous moves, rather than making an outrageous move first.  Then you can claim you are only doing what you have to do to survive.

But that's my point. McConnell has made outrageous moves. The filibuster removal for judges? Reid did it but McConnell stonewalled judicial appointments. Not approving many judges in 2015-2017, or Garland? Unusual, and resulted in many new conservative judges. At best you can complain McConnell removed the filibuster for the Supreme Court nominees for Gorsuch, but in the conservative world even Romney is happy the court is well Right now. There has been no penalty from the voters for these outrageous moves. McConnell has played to win, and is not interested in compromise. I can't think of much the Democrat Senators/House have done that have "won" in the past few decades. They have played, yes. The ACA was a giant political loser, no matter what your view on it actually helping people. That's the signature from two years of near complete control of both houses (they sort of had the super majority but not very long in that 2 year time frame). Obama took a soft attitude and wasted 2 years anchoring the left's agenda on pretty center stuff.

If Biden wins and the Democrats take at least a 52-48 majority then I hope they remove the filibuster and pass real left legislation (Green New Deal, etc.), and pack the courts. It is the only way to penalize McConnell and the path he took us down. And well, it is not just him, it is all the Republican Senators who he had fall in line. Either McConnell's MO is to find dirt on every one of his party's senators, or he is surprisingly very convincing. Unfortunately, with the direction this has gone, the Democrats need to go far left just to anchor their future negotiations. McConnell has no interest in moving to the center. The center needs to be appealing to him again.

I agree with your first paragraph in part, in that the Democrats didn't have much to show for the short period of time when they had complete control of Congress and the Presidency.  And although I wish the ACA had been a better piece of legislation, I don't agree that it was a political loser.  It represented monumental progress in the battle against our law-of-the-jungle health care system, and it moved the political zeitgeist enough that much of the country does not want to go back to pre-ACA days.  Once the 2010 mid-terms happened, the Democrats were dead in the water for accomplishing legislation, and the same for judicial appointments after the 2014 mid-terms.  At that point they couldn't have retaliated with their own hardball tactics whether they wanted to or not.

If/when the Democrats are back in control, they will need to use some hardball tactics of their own if they expect to get anything done.  The filibuster will have to go.  Which is a shame, because then they will have no defense against bad legislation the next time the Republicans are in control.  But it has to be done.  However, again, it does not follow that they should then use their power to pass legislation that most Americans don't like.  That would insure their return to the minority sooner rather than later.

tl;dr
Doing the right thing is not correlated with support from the people who are benefitting from that right thing!! Dems should do that anyway!

^Absolutely.  The job is not to please people; it's to serve the country well.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: If Biden wins, what should his priorities be?
« Reply #74 on: Today at 05:19:26 PM »
So with "but make sure that they are doing things that play well across much of the country, not just in the liberal enclaves." you meant "things that also play well outside big cities"?

Hm... I am afraid that is not possible. I think in that case it is still not a (primarily) Dems/Reps based difference, but city/rural, who tend to vote that way.
Talking about liberal enclaves would mean you have switched couse and effect. City people vote Dems because they have a policy that is appealing to town dwellers. If they start doing things that appeal to rural people, it would mean towns would not vote for them.

But I guess we can end that discussion here.

Thanks for taking over the semantics argument for me. ;)

The English language is simply not as precise as you are assuming it is. :)
You have to go for understanding the general meaning instead of nit-picking details of word usage. Which words you use adds flavor, adds shades of meaning, but not at the expense of the larger more obvious meaning.

He simply meant that Dems should do things that are popular with most people, instead of only playing to a fraction of their own base.