Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 505364 times)

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7150 on: January 18, 2021, 10:57:22 AM »


There seems to be reasonable agreement that it is outside the powers of the President to pardon himself, mainly on the ground that a pardon is "given" and a President can't "give" himself something.



Self-pardon in any case violates the primacy of impartial, dispassionate adjudication.


The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."
So does that extend to pardons for people who have committed crimes with the President (eg his children) or on his behalf (eg members of his administration or the invaders of Congress)?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7151 on: January 18, 2021, 11:05:51 AM »
I have to imagine that that is why Trump seems to have some trepidation around pardoning himself or his children. His children would not have 5th amendment protections from tattling on their father. So even if Trump pardons his children, there's a potential for them to run into obstruction charges if they don't out their father.

Trump on the other hand has to see a self-pardon as a dangerous thing as well. It would basically be an admission of guilt. So he would end up having a whole slew of Civil cases opened up against him and likely would lose a lot of money. And then at the end of it, it likely wouldn't even be upheld. If Trump tries to pardon himself, it would probably be the riskiest, stupidest thing he did as president.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7152 on: January 18, 2021, 11:18:25 AM »


There seems to be reasonable agreement that it is outside the powers of the President to pardon himself, mainly on the ground that a pardon is "given" and a President can't "give" himself something.



Self-pardon in any case violates the primacy of impartial, dispassionate adjudication.


The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."
So does that extend to pardons for people who have committed crimes with the President (eg his children) or on his behalf (eg members of his administration or the invaders of Congress)?

No.

Plenary power is plenary power.

 Although exercise of the Pardon Power in such cases reeks of nepotism and  corruption they do not suffice to nullify its exercise.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 11:20:36 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7153 on: January 18, 2021, 11:39:30 AM »


There seems to be reasonable agreement that it is outside the powers of the President to pardon himself, mainly on the ground that a pardon is "given" and a President can't "give" himself something.



Self-pardon in any case violates the primacy of impartial, dispassionate adjudication.


The Supreme Court has never adjudicated the issue of a presidential self-pardon.

If the issue of a presidential self-pardon ever comes before the Supreme Court I predict a 9-0 ruling against self-pardon.

Due to human nature, a party that has a central self-interest in the outcome of their case is presumed incapable of scrupulously impartial  judgment, one of the requisites of equitable adjudication.

A presidential  power of self-pardon invites egregious, capricious  law-breaking and autocratic subversion of justice.



"Nemo judex in causa sua/nemo judex in sua causa is a Latin phrase that means, literally, 'no-one is judge in his own cause.'It is a principle of natural justice that no person can judge a case in which they have an interest."
So does that extend to pardons for people who have committed crimes with the President (eg his children) or on his behalf (eg members of his administration or the invaders of Congress)?

No.

Plenary power is plenary power.

 Although exercise of the Pardon Power in such cases reeks of nepotism and  corruption they do not suffice to nullify its exercise.
Then yeah, Magna Carta is dead in the USA and when Trump Mark 2 comes along you are all fucked.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7154 on: January 18, 2021, 11:41:53 AM »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7155 on: January 18, 2021, 12:07:32 PM »
I hadn't seen this footage until today:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/video-dept/a-reporters-footage-from-inside-the-capitol-siege

disturbing

I think that’s the most disturbing one I’ve seen yet. It really doesn’t leave any doubt about their intention to assassinate government leaders, or that they perceive Trump, Cruz, and Hawley to be their leaders.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7156 on: January 18, 2021, 01:23:30 PM »
The Qanon Shaman preached a sermon. I did not see that coming.

We're very lucky there wasn't more violence.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7157 on: January 18, 2021, 03:32:38 PM »
No.

Plenary power is plenary power.

 Although exercise of the Pardon Power in such cases reeks of nepotism and  corruption they do not suffice to nullify its exercise.
Then yeah, Magna Carta is dead in the USA and when Trump Mark 2 comes along you are all fucked.

I must not be smart enough to understand what former player is saying here.  I thought I was doing pretty good with John GI's Latin and legal explanations (excellent job by the way, JGI!)

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7158 on: January 18, 2021, 03:42:12 PM »
No.

Plenary power is plenary power.

 Although exercise of the Pardon Power in such cases reeks of nepotism and  corruption they do not suffice to nullify its exercise.
Then yeah, Magna Carta is dead in the USA and when Trump Mark 2 comes along you are all fucked.

I must not be smart enough to understand what former player is saying here.  I thought I was doing pretty good with John GI's Latin and legal explanations (excellent job by the way, JGI!)

The Magna Carta is the first (I think?) case of rule of law applying to political leadership.    So if the president can pardon himself, then s/he is not bound by rule of law.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7159 on: January 18, 2021, 03:47:26 PM »
I have to imagine that that is why Trump seems to have some trepidation around pardoning himself or his children. His children would not have 5th amendment protections from tattling on their father. So even if Trump pardons his children, there's a potential for them to run into obstruction charges if they don't out their father.

Trump on the other hand has to see a self-pardon as a dangerous thing as well. It would basically be an admission of guilt. So he would end up having a whole slew of Civil cases opened up against him and likely would lose a lot of money. And then at the end of it, it likely wouldn't even be upheld. If Trump tries to pardon himself, it would probably be the riskiest, stupidest thing he did as president.

The "pardoned people don't have 5th amendment protections" thing is blown a bit out of proportion.  Because of our federalist system, the same one the same people are excited to know that anyone pardoned by Trump is only getting out of federal crimes and not state crimes, and the strength of 5th amendment protections in our jurisprudence, it's likely that Trump children who were pardoned would still maintain 5th amendment protections for nearly everything because of their potential vulnerability to legal action at the state level.  I have heard many smart legal scholars opine that attempts to invoke the 5th Amendment by these parties would be likely to be successful in just about any court.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7160 on: January 18, 2021, 03:57:18 PM »
Oh boy, apparently Melania has released her FLOTUS farewell speech, in which she touts her "Be Best" campaign and its efforts to target online safety.

After "Be Best," she will be the first FLOTUS not to give her successor, Dr. Jill Biden, a tour of the White House living quarters in the modern era.

Irony is lost on these people.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7161 on: January 18, 2021, 04:02:53 PM »
No.

Plenary power is plenary power.

 Although exercise of the Pardon Power in such cases reeks of nepotism and  corruption they do not suffice to nullify its exercise.
Then yeah, Magna Carta is dead in the USA and when Trump Mark 2 comes along you are all fucked.

I must not be smart enough to understand what former player is saying here.  I thought I was doing pretty good with John GI's Latin and legal explanations (excellent job by the way, JGI!)

The Magna Carta is the first (I think?) case of rule of law applying to political leadership.    So if the president can pardon himself, then s/he is not bound by rule of law.

Thanks @scottish !    I did not make the connection at all.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7162 on: January 18, 2021, 04:36:11 PM »
Oh boy, apparently Melania has released her FLOTUS farewell speech, in which she touts her "Be Best" campaign and its efforts to target online safety.

After "Be Best," she will be the first FLOTUS not to give her successor, Dr. Jill Biden, a tour of the White House living quarters in the modern era.

Irony is lost on these people.

I think Melania has a different concept of what “Be Best” means.
She’s repeatedly cut out all people from her former life each time she climbs the social ladder.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7163 on: January 18, 2021, 05:31:44 PM »
Oh boy, apparently Melania has released her FLOTUS farewell speech, in which she touts her "Be Best" campaign and its efforts to target online safety.

After "Be Best," she will be the first FLOTUS not to give her successor, Dr. Jill Biden, a tour of the White House living quarters in the modern era.

Irony is lost on these people.

Pence hasn't learned a thing. He showed up to Fort Drum on a Sunday to tell a group of voluntold soldiers how great Trump was to them.

-We gave you the biggest pay raise ever in 10 years (not true)
-Your military was in shambles because of the previous administration (the Budget Control Act was as much Senator Pence's fault as anybody else's)
-Nobody has died in Afghanistan this year (easy when we have just a handful of troops left)
-Trump hasn't started a war (just a civil one; conversely you could point out he declared war on COVID and has been losing miserably, about to surpass WW2's US death toll)

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7164 on: January 18, 2021, 05:55:43 PM »
Oh boy, apparently Melania has released her FLOTUS farewell speech, in which she touts her "Be Best" campaign and its efforts to target online safety.

After "Be Best," she will be the first FLOTUS not to give her successor, Dr. Jill Biden, a tour of the White House living quarters in the modern era.

Irony is lost on these people.

Pence hasn't learned a thing. He showed up to Fort Drum on a Sunday to tell a group of voluntold soldiers how great Trump was to them.

-We gave you the biggest pay raise ever in 10 years (not true)
-Your military was in shambles because of the previous administration (the Budget Control Act was as much Senator Pence's fault as anybody else's)
-Nobody has died in Afghanistan this year (easy when we have just a handful of troops left)
-Trump hasn't started a war (just a civil one; conversely you could point out he declared war on COVID and has been losing miserably, about to surpass WW2's US death toll)

Well to be fair, there were no US combat deaths this year in Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, or Vietnam either...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7165 on: January 18, 2021, 06:03:43 PM »
Oh boy, apparently Melania has released her FLOTUS farewell speech, in which she touts her "Be Best" campaign and its efforts to target online safety.

After "Be Best," she will be the first FLOTUS not to give her successor, Dr. Jill Biden, a tour of the White House living quarters in the modern era.

Irony is lost on these people.

Pence hasn't learned a thing. He showed up to Fort Drum on a Sunday to tell a group of voluntold soldiers how great Trump was to them.

-We gave you the biggest pay raise ever in 10 years (not true)
-Your military was in shambles because of the previous administration (the Budget Control Act was as much Senator Pence's fault as anybody else's)
-Nobody has died in Afghanistan this year (easy when we have just a handful of troops left)
-Trump hasn't started a war (just a civil one; conversely you could point out he declared war on COVID and has been losing miserably, about to surpass WW2's US death toll)

Well to be fair, there were no US combat deaths this year in Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, or Vietnam either...

Well we stopped measuring progress by enemy deaths back in Vietnam, and we've never cared about the rise or fall of noncombatant deaths, so...

edit: not entirely true, there was a brief period in Iraq where we were keeping track of all attacks across the country as a measurement, but then we started leaving as soon as it looked like it was trending positively.

Back to the point of this administration using every moment it is in front of a microphone to campaign for reelection.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 06:33:18 PM by Travis »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7166 on: January 18, 2021, 07:58:04 PM »

Pence hasn't learned a thing. He showed up to Fort Drum on a Sunday to tell a group of voluntold soldiers how great Trump was to them.
.... big snip...........

Errr I'm speechless...... If someone put a target on my back, I'd be unspeakably pissed.

"....
At 2:13 PM EST that day, Vice President Mike Pence – who until that moment had been fulfilling his constitutional duty presiding as President of the Senate – was rushed off the Senate floor by the U.S. Secret Service as the angry mob breached the doors of the Capitol. At 2:24 PM, President Trump tweeted “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!” Minutes later, the mob was chanting “Hang Mike Pence!” throughout the halls of Congress after building gallows and hanging a noose on the lawn of the National Mall.   ...."

Unverified facts, but a quote from a Republican Member of Congress letter.

I was watching the Joint Session live.  I blinked and Mike Pence wasn't there and somebody else had taken that seat with much consternation and confusion.

That said I think Pence performed his Constitutional duty well that day. 
I did note that he didn't say "no objections heard" after every Trump/Pence state (but a few), as he did with every (most) Biden/Harris state.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7167 on: January 18, 2021, 09:29:13 PM »
"....
At 2:24 PM, President Trump tweeted “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!” Minutes later, the mob was chanting “Hang Mike Pence!” throughout the halls of Congress after building gallows and hanging a noose on the lawn of the National Mall.   ...."

Unverified facts, but a quote from a Republican Member of Congress letter.

Um, I may be missing something, but how are any of these unverified? Are you just saying that you personally did not verify them? Here is Trump's (deleted) tweet, here is an example of the Trumpers chanting "Hang Mike Pence!" (there are more, some actually "in the halls of Congress"), here is the noose.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7168 on: January 18, 2021, 09:37:10 PM »
I hadn't seen this footage until today:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/video-dept/a-reporters-footage-from-inside-the-capitol-siege

disturbing

Yeah, there's no mistaking the noose in this video, either. It's not an unverified fact. They actually built a gallows with a noose. And they trashed a bunch of equipment owned by the Associated Press (one of the most neutral news sources) and stole what was probably classified information.

These are not the good guys.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7169 on: January 18, 2021, 10:25:10 PM »
"....
At 2:24 PM, President Trump tweeted “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!” Minutes later, the mob was chanting “Hang Mike Pence!” throughout the halls of Congress after building gallows and hanging a noose on the lawn of the National Mall.   ...."

Unverified facts, but a quote from a Republican Member of Congress letter.

Um, I may be missing something, but how are any of these unverified? Are you just saying that you personally did not verify them? Here is Trump's (deleted) tweet, here is an example of the Trumpers chanting "Hang Mike Pence!" (there are more, some actually "in the halls of Congress"), here is the noose.

You are correct, I only meant that have not _personally_ vouched for the facts described.  I'm not on Twitter nor have sources of deleted tweets. (thank you for those).
The fact that it comes from a Republican and makes Trump look bad, in my mind makes it more trustworthy, but it is still a blind quote for me.
My science and genealogy background with emphasis on reliable documentation just got in my way of a random quote.  Yep, I've seen the noose.

It still boggles my mind that Mike Pence still supports in any way a doofus who painted a target on him.

I reluctantly agree with Pence's not invoking the 25th Amendment, purely on grounds of horrible precedent. 
Don't get me wrong, if _I_ was in Pence's shoes, I'd be walking running the 25th Amendment (President incapable of duties of office) petition around. 
But thankfully _I_ am NOT the Vice President.

The only other time I am aware of that a President got this far out of hand with a Vice President was when Jefferson tried to railroad a treason conviction for Aaron Burr. 
At least in that case, they were of different parties, and had been legitimate, heated, rivals for the Presidency, and no love was lost either way.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7170 on: January 19, 2021, 02:58:09 AM »
No.

Plenary power is plenary power.

 Although exercise of the Pardon Power in such cases reeks of nepotism and  corruption they do not suffice to nullify its exercise.
Then yeah, Magna Carta is dead in the USA and when Trump Mark 2 comes along you are all fucked.

I must not be smart enough to understand what former player is saying here.  I thought I was doing pretty good with John GI's Latin and legal explanations (excellent job by the way, JGI!)

The Magna Carta is the first (I think?) case of rule of law applying to political leadership.    So if the president can pardon himself, then s/he is not bound by rule of law.

Depends on how you interpret it. Magna Carta is from 1215. The Frostating law from around 950 (oral until 1000-1200) says that if the king becomes a tyrannic ruler the people have to kill him:
"No man shall do (unlawful) violence towards anyone else, neither the king or others. But if the king does it, you shall carve war arrow and let it go to all the counties within the region. And all shall go against him and kill him if they can catch him. And if the king escapes, he shall never be allowed back into the country. Those who will not go against him must pay a fine of 3 marks, and likewise those who stop the arrow."

The war against King Olav the large (later St.Olav) and the killing of him at Stiklestad in 1030 was probably done with basis in this law. The modern Nordic laws are based in the Thing laws, and produced bottom up based on direct democracy (in contrast to representative democracy/nobility/benevolent rulers). That makes them fundamental different in many ways. For instance, we have the shortest law books in Europe, and although there is large room for interpretation, there are very few legal loopholes. You are obliged by law to know and understand the laws and use logic. It is the purpose of the law, not the letter, that matters. We no longer kill bad rulers, but if they don't behave well it doesn't take us long to remove them from power.

Magna Carta is more relevant for US laws, since they are based in the European law system (although carving a war arrow against Trump might sound tempting right now).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7171 on: January 19, 2021, 04:50:38 AM »
I sincerely hope this man, Sens. Romney, Sasse, and Murkowski, and any other sane, non-seditious people still in the Republican party will leave and form their own new, functioning party. His likely replacement with a Trump Republican means that if our current governor, secretary of state, and attorney general (all Democrats) are re-elected in 2022, half of the canvassers will probably refuse to certify the election.

Michigan Politics Tracker | Canvasser who certified Biden win isn't surprised GOP will replace him (Bridge Michigan)

Quote
Aaron Van Langevelde was one of two Republican members of the four-member Board of State Canvassers who faced pressure from party activists to block the certification of the state’s election results on Nov. 23. Norm Shinkle, the other Republican canvasser, abstained from the vote, while Van Langevelde said he carried out a “clear legal duty” by voting to certify.

Van Langevelde’s four-year term expires Jan. 31, and he told Bridge Michigan in an email the party’s decision not to renominate him is no surprise.

He said his choice to certify election results upset many in the Republican Party who “have not reached out since then.”

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7172 on: January 19, 2021, 05:11:18 AM »
"Did Magna Carta mean nothing to you?  Did she die in vain?"  (Hancock)
Shit! I just got a very bad case of novel idea flash. Ouch, that hurts!

A small girl named Magna Carta, whose blood is needed to "activate" the pardons. She flees because the president is so bad and after a long chase she is shot by a president fanatic with bull horns.

I'm pessimistic, but keeping my GOP registration for now in case Lara Trump really does run for NC Senate, so I can vote against her in the primary.
I'm registered independent in NC, so I can too.

+1, both parties have open primaries in NC, so there's really no reason to be registered as anything other than unaffiliated unless you want to apply to be one of the party's Electors or something.

You know, every time i read this I wonder why nobody has misused that on a big scale, and also why nobody of the Trump Fans think Antifa has misused that to put the worst candidate on top in 2016 with the goal of imploding the GOP.


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7173 on: January 19, 2021, 05:18:07 AM »

I'm pessimistic, but keeping my GOP registration for now in case Lara Trump really does run for NC Senate, so I can vote against her in the primary.
I'm registered independent in NC, so I can too.

+1, both parties have open primaries in NC, so there's really no reason to be registered as anything other than unaffiliated unless you want to apply to be one of the party's Electors or something.

You know, every time i read this I wonder why nobody has misused that on a big scale, and also why nobody of the Trump Fans think Antifa has misused that to put the worst candidate on top in 2016 with the goal of imploding the GOP.
You can bet that they've thought of it now, and that over the next four years the Trump faction of the Republican party (it's a majority of Republicans) will be putting its apparatchics in place in all the battleground States in order to skew the next State, Congress and Presidential elections.

Given that most States seem to have enshrined the Republican and Democrat parties into normal/statutory practice, with State run primaries and so on, I don't see much hope that either the non-Trump faction of the Republican Party will be able to prevail over the Trump faction, or that their leaving and trying to set up a third party to run against the majority Trump Republicans will work.

I am very pessimistic about the chances of American democracy lasting out the next 10 years.


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7174 on: January 19, 2021, 05:37:31 AM »
[


It still boggles my mind that Mike Pence still supports in any way a doofus who painted a target on him.

I reluctantly agree with Pence's not invoking the 25th Amendment, purely on grounds of horrible precedent. 
Don't get me wrong, if _I_ was in Pence's shoes, I'd be walking running the 25th Amendment (President incapable of duties of office) petition around. 
But thankfully _I_ am NOT the Vice President.

The only other time I am aware of that a President got this far out of hand with a Vice President was when Jefferson tried to railroad a treason conviction for Aaron Burr. 
At least in that case, they were of different parties, and had been legitimate, heated, rivals for the Presidency, and no love was lost either way.

I have the opposite worry - if Trump is not removed from office (and that seems the most likely scenario) it sets a horrible precedent regarding the standard for removal.  Vocally encouraging an insurrection would not meet that bar, nor would refuting the results of a free and fair election, colluding with foreign governments, obstructing investigations, or any of the other reprehensible conduct that Trump has engaged in over the last four years.

I’m worried a future president (Dem of GOP) will have to be substantially worse before s/he will be removed from office.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7175 on: January 19, 2021, 06:33:09 AM »
Trump's whole time as president seems a little like a network penetration test. How many ways can he break the government and still get away with it?

Some future GOP president is watching and learning. I worry they'll repeat this and truly hurt this country.

Maybe (MAYBE) Putin is getting his money's worth. Yeah, I'm joking. Kind of.

If I were Pence I would like other's have suggested run the 25th Amendment through so fast... I'm sure Pence is still trying to be a faithful Republican and perhaps that co-ops doing the right thing.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7176 on: January 19, 2021, 06:38:41 AM »
Trump's whole time as president seems a little like a network penetration test. How many ways can he break the government and still get away with it?

Some future GOP president is watching and learning. I worry they'll repeat this and truly hurt this country.

Maybe (MAYBE) Putin is getting his money's worth. Yeah, I'm joking. Kind of.

If I were Pence I would like other's have suggested run the 25th Amendment through so fast... I'm sure Pence is still trying to be a faithful Republican and perhaps that co-ops doing the right thing.

To be fair, that has always been Trump's MO. The question now is who has been paying attention and how closely.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7177 on: January 19, 2021, 06:58:14 AM »
Trump's whole time as president seems a little like a network penetration test. How many ways can he break the government and still get away with it?

Some future GOP president is watching and learning. I worry they'll repeat this and truly hurt this country.

Maybe (MAYBE) Putin is getting his money's worth. Yeah, I'm joking. Kind of.

If I were Pence I would like other's have suggested run the 25th Amendment through so fast... I'm sure Pence is still trying to be a faithful Republican and perhaps that co-ops doing the right thing.

Yep Since November 2016, I have been saying that the next GOP president will be as corrupt as Trump, but smarter. God help us.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7178 on: January 19, 2021, 07:50:27 AM »
Trump's whole time as president seems a little like a network penetration test. How many ways can he break the government and still get away with it?

Some future GOP president is watching and learning. I worry they'll repeat this and truly hurt this country.

Maybe (MAYBE) Putin is getting his money's worth. Yeah, I'm joking. Kind of.

If I were Pence I would like other's have suggested run the 25th Amendment through so fast... I'm sure Pence is still trying to be a faithful Republican and perhaps that co-ops doing the right thing.

Yep Since November 2016, I have been saying that the next GOP president will be as corrupt as Trump, but smarter. God help us.

Well that eliminates Don Jr and Eric (not smarter)...

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7179 on: January 19, 2021, 07:54:26 AM »
Look at some of the Senators we have now. Are we so secure that Don, Jr., or Ivanka Trump, or Lara Trump cannot get elected Senator? Is it unthinkable that Arkansans would vote for Sarah Huckabee Sanders?

I would like to think we have a system that has held together despite plenty of horrible people seeking power (because that's what horrible people do). Somehow giving the blessing of history to people like Ronald Reagan launders their flaws, flaws that were all too apparent to society who nonetheless chose them for leadership anyway.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7180 on: January 19, 2021, 07:57:24 AM »
Look at some of the Senators we have now. Are we so secure that Don, Jr., or Ivanka Trump, or Lara Trump cannot get elected Senator? Is it unthinkable that Arkansans would vote for Sarah Huckabee Sanders?

I would like to think we have a system that has held together despite plenty of horrible people seeking power (because that's what horrible people do). Somehow giving the blessing of history to people like Ronald Reagan launders their flaws, flaws that were all too apparent to society who nonetheless chose them for leadership anyway.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that we'll see at least one Trump offspring run for federal office, and quite possibly win. They will also carry all the toxicity and enthusiasm that Trump himself carried during this last election.  Can they win a presidential election?  Well DJT lost, so they'd have to do better than him.

We've got QAnon supporters in duly elected seats. Seems we'll see members of THe Trump Show in politics for decades to come.

Dollar Slice

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7181 on: January 19, 2021, 08:49:39 AM »
Some future GOP president is watching and learning. I worry they'll repeat this and truly hurt this country.

His name is Josh Hawley, and he's already doing it. The perfect GOP candidate: white, male, Christian, full of painful amounts of grievance, willing to do anything to win and has no actual morals. And he's smarter, younger, saner, and better-looking than Trump, so the media will swallow it hook, line and sinker.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7182 on: January 19, 2021, 09:23:30 AM »


I reluctantly agree with Pence's not invoking the 25th Amendment, purely on grounds of horrible precedent. 
Don't get me wrong, if _I_ was in Pence's shoes, I'd be walking running the 25th Amendment (President incapable of duties of office) petition around. 
But thankfully _I_ am NOT the Vice President.



7 days ago — "Pence said that the 25th Amendment was designed to address presidential incapacity or disability not “a means of punishment or usurpation."




Initially, I thought invoking the 25th Amendment inapposite. I changed my mind after I read John  Feerick's  analysis of the broad criteria justificative of invoking it.

Trump's insistent belief that the election was stolen and that he is the true winner is a delusion which is "an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder."

So it is plausible to argue  that Trump's delusion is includable within "presidential incapacity or disability," which according to Pence are grounds  supportive of  invoking the 25th Amendment. 



Wikipedia

John Feerick, the principal drafter of the amendment,[3]:xii,xx[4]:5[10] writes that Congress deliberately left the terms unable and inability undefined "since cases of inability could take various forms not neatly fitting into [a rigid] definition ... The debates surrounding the Twenty-fifth Amendment indicate that [those terms] are intended to cover all cases in which some condition or circumstance prevents the President from discharging his powers and duties ..." [3]:112 A survey of scholarship on the amendment found

no specific threshold – medical or otherwise – for the "inability" contemplated in Section 4. The framers specifically rejected any definition of the term, prioritizing flexibility. Those implementing Section 4 should focus on whether – in an objective sense taking all of the circumstances into account – the President is "unable to discharge the powers and duties" of the office. The amendment does not require that any particular type or amount of evidence be submitted to determine that the President is unable to perform his duties. While the framers did imagine that medical evidence would be helpful to the determination of whether the President is unable, neither medical expertise nor diagnosis is required for a determination of inability ... To be sure, foremost in [the minds of the framers] was a physical or mental impairment. But the text of Section 4 sets forth a flexible standard intentionally designed to apply to a wide variety of unforeseen emergencies.[4]:7,20

Among potential examples of such unforeseen emergencies, legal scholars have listed kidnapping of the president and "political emergencies" such as impeachment. Traits such as unpopularity, incompetence, impeachable conduct, poor judgment, or laziness might not in and of themselves constitute inability, but should such traits "rise to a level where they prevented the President from carrying out his or her constitutional duties, they still might constitute an inability, even in the absence of a formal medical diagnosis." In addition, a president who already manifested disabling traits at the time he or she was elected is not thereby immunized from a declaration of inability.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7183 on: January 19, 2021, 09:44:37 AM »

I would like to think we have a system that has held together.

I assure you America has held together.

Tomorrow Biden will be inaugurated the 46th president of the United States according to constitutional methodology.

The nation's governmental architecture of checks and balances, dispersion of power, judicial review, and other revered institutions functioned as  the Founders and the Framers planned.

The United States of America will never be undone by an aberrant leader or institutional abnormalities.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7184 on: January 19, 2021, 09:46:04 AM »
Most of us knew he was delusional years ago.


Alfred J Quack

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7185 on: January 19, 2021, 12:21:31 PM »
... If Trump tries to pardon himself, it would probably be the riskiest, stupidest thing he did as president.
Based on what I've seen and read on the news, this is basically the root cause of all his troubles. Not sure if i'm being sarcastic too.

Most of us knew he was delusional years ago.


Or he was predicting the future? Like criticizing Obama for playing golf so much during crisis situations... Trum has played more golf in 1 term than Obama in 2 according to this: https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/oct/10/who-plays-more-golf-donald-trump-or-barack-obama/


OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7186 on: January 19, 2021, 12:37:15 PM »
... If Trump tries to pardon himself, it would probably be the riskiest, stupidest thing he did as president.
Based on what I've seen and read on the news, this is basically the root cause of all his troubles. Not sure if i'm being sarcastic too.

Most of us knew he was delusional years ago.


Or he was predicting the future? Like criticizing Obama for playing golf so much during crisis situations... Trum has played more golf in 1 term than Obama in 2 according to this: https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/oct/10/who-plays-more-golf-donald-trump-or-barack-obama/

It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7187 on: January 19, 2021, 12:50:53 PM »
It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

Yes.  I've posted this thought numerous time, but Trump is the absolute master of projection.  Damn near 100% of the time whatever he is spouting off about is just a big projection.  It's like the most obvious tell, that's proven right time and time again, and somehow a lot of people don't catch on despite it being pointed out constantly.  I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, but I believe he is pushing the election fraud theory so heavily because he attempted to cheat his ass off and still lost.  He's wondering how the fuck he could lose with all the cheating and voter suppression he was attempting.  It would be like if you stacked the deck to give yourself a winning hand, and then somehow you lost.  You'd be absolutely incredulous and accuse the other side of cheating.  Except they didn't cheat, you are just so incompetent you couldn't actually cheat effectively. 

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7188 on: January 19, 2021, 01:14:02 PM »
Trump's whole time as president seems a little like a network penetration test. How many ways can he break the government and still get away with it?

Some future GOP president is watching and learning. I worry they'll repeat this and truly hurt this country.

Maybe (MAYBE) Putin is getting his money's worth. Yeah, I'm joking. Kind of.

Parler has a new place. Financed by a Russian company.
Compared to RT etc. that's dirt cheap!

PhilB

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7189 on: January 19, 2021, 01:36:15 PM »
It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

Yes.  I've posted this thought numerous time, but Trump is the absolute master of projection.  Damn near 100% of the time whatever he is spouting off about is just a big projection.  It's like the most obvious tell, that's proven right time and time again, and somehow a lot of people don't catch on despite it being pointed out constantly.  I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, but I believe he is pushing the election fraud theory so heavily because he attempted to cheat his ass off and still lost.  He's wondering how the fuck he could lose with all the cheating and voter suppression he was attempting.  It would be like if you stacked the deck to give yourself a winning hand, and then somehow you lost.  You'd be absolutely incredulous and accuse the other side of cheating.  Except they didn't cheat, you are just so incompetent you couldn't actually cheat effectively.

It almost makes you worried about when they keep accusing the Democrats of being paedophiles...

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7190 on: January 19, 2021, 01:40:55 PM »
It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

Yes.  I've posted this thought numerous time, but Trump is the absolute master of projection.  Damn near 100% of the time whatever he is spouting off about is just a big projection.  It's like the most obvious tell, that's proven right time and time again, and somehow a lot of people don't catch on despite it being pointed out constantly.  I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, but I believe he is pushing the election fraud theory so heavily because he attempted to cheat his ass off and still lost.  He's wondering how the fuck he could lose with all the cheating and voter suppression he was attempting.  It would be like if you stacked the deck to give yourself a winning hand, and then somehow you lost.  You'd be absolutely incredulous and accuse the other side of cheating.  Except they didn't cheat, you are just so incompetent you couldn't actually cheat effectively.

It almost makes you worried about when they keep accusing the Democrats of being paedophiles...

https://deadstate.org/senator-who-voted-to-protect-bathrooms-from-trans-people-caught-in-hotel-with-underage-boy/

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7191 on: January 19, 2021, 01:42:45 PM »
I assure you America has held together.

Tomorrow Biden will be inaugurated the 46th president of the United States according to constitutional methodology.

The nation's governmental architecture of checks and balances, dispersion of power, judicial review, and other revered institutions functioned as  the Founders and the Framers planned.

The United States of America will never be undone by an aberrant leader or institutional abnormalities.
This reminds me of that story about the guy who jumped out of the 200th floor window of his office block.

Passing the 150th window he said "wow, flying is fun"

Passing the 100th window he said "wow, flying is fun"

Passing the 50th window he said "wow, flying is fun"

.....

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7192 on: January 19, 2021, 01:46:57 PM »
It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

Yes.  I've posted this thought numerous time, but Trump is the absolute master of projection.  Damn near 100% of the time whatever he is spouting off about is just a big projection.  It's like the most obvious tell, that's proven right time and time again, and somehow a lot of people don't catch on despite it being pointed out constantly.  I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, but I believe he is pushing the election fraud theory so heavily because he attempted to cheat his ass off and still lost.  He's wondering how the fuck he could lose with all the cheating and voter suppression he was attempting.  It would be like if you stacked the deck to give yourself a winning hand, and then somehow you lost.  You'd be absolutely incredulous and accuse the other side of cheating.  Except they didn't cheat, you are just so incompetent you couldn't actually cheat effectively.

It almost makes you worried about when they keep accusing the Democrats of being paedophiles...

https://deadstate.org/senator-who-voted-to-protect-bathrooms-from-trans-people-caught-in-hotel-with-underage-boy/

Yes, and then there was Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7193 on: January 19, 2021, 02:05:02 PM »
It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

Yes.  I've posted this thought numerous time, but Trump is the absolute master of projection.  Damn near 100% of the time whatever he is spouting off about is just a big projection.  It's like the most obvious tell, that's proven right time and time again, and somehow a lot of people don't catch on despite it being pointed out constantly.  I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, but I believe he is pushing the election fraud theory so heavily because he attempted to cheat his ass off and still lost.  He's wondering how the fuck he could lose with all the cheating and voter suppression he was attempting.  It would be like if you stacked the deck to give yourself a winning hand, and then somehow you lost.  You'd be absolutely incredulous and accuse the other side of cheating.  Except they didn't cheat, you are just so incompetent you couldn't actually cheat effectively.

It almost makes you worried about when they keep accusing the Democrats of being paedophiles...

https://deadstate.org/senator-who-voted-to-protect-bathrooms-from-trans-people-caught-in-hotel-with-underage-boy/

Yes, and then there was Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

I've lost track, has he pardoned Epstein yet? And the others?  After all, they are all good people with minor pecadillos.    /s

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7194 on: January 19, 2021, 02:14:50 PM »
It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

Yes.  I've posted this thought numerous time, but Trump is the absolute master of projection.  Damn near 100% of the time whatever he is spouting off about is just a big projection.  It's like the most obvious tell, that's proven right time and time again, and somehow a lot of people don't catch on despite it being pointed out constantly.  I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, but I believe he is pushing the election fraud theory so heavily because he attempted to cheat his ass off and still lost.  He's wondering how the fuck he could lose with all the cheating and voter suppression he was attempting.  It would be like if you stacked the deck to give yourself a winning hand, and then somehow you lost.  You'd be absolutely incredulous and accuse the other side of cheating.  Except they didn't cheat, you are just so incompetent you couldn't actually cheat effectively.

It almost makes you worried about when they keep accusing the Democrats of being paedophiles...

https://deadstate.org/senator-who-voted-to-protect-bathrooms-from-trans-people-caught-in-hotel-with-underage-boy/

Yes, and then there was Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

I've lost track, has he pardoned Epstein yet? And the others?  After all, they are all good people with minor pecadillos.    /s

Epstein is dead so Trump probably won't waste that pardon.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7195 on: January 19, 2021, 02:20:11 PM »
Read about Pardons here.
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/commutations-granted-president-donald-trump-2017-present#Oct212020

On a slightly different topic I think I've figured out Pence's behavior and extension, the rest of the tRUMPists.

Stockholm Syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome  "Stockholm syndrome is a condition in which hostages develop a psychological bond with their captors during captivity."   Four years is a long time.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7196 on: January 19, 2021, 02:43:19 PM »
Trump's whole time as president seems a little like a network penetration test. How many ways can he break the government and still get away with it?

Some future GOP president is watching and learning. I worry they'll repeat this and truly hurt this country.

Maybe (MAYBE) Putin is getting his money's worth. Yeah, I'm joking. Kind of.

Parler has a new place. Financed by a Russian company.
Compared to RT etc. that's dirt cheap!
I believe it was Dan Rather who noted that the MAGA hats are red for good reason.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7197 on: January 19, 2021, 03:31:01 PM »
It's a fairly safe bet that whenever Trump accuses someone else of something, he's actually projecting something that he either has done himself or wants to do. Which is why his repeated claims of his opponents' election fraud for the past 5 years are so interesting.

Yes.  I've posted this thought numerous time, but Trump is the absolute master of projection.  Damn near 100% of the time whatever he is spouting off about is just a big projection.  It's like the most obvious tell, that's proven right time and time again, and somehow a lot of people don't catch on despite it being pointed out constantly.  I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, but I believe he is pushing the election fraud theory so heavily because he attempted to cheat his ass off and still lost.  He's wondering how the fuck he could lose with all the cheating and voter suppression he was attempting.  It would be like if you stacked the deck to give yourself a winning hand, and then somehow you lost.  You'd be absolutely incredulous and accuse the other side of cheating.  Except they didn't cheat, you are just so incompetent you couldn't actually cheat effectively.

It almost makes you worried about when they keep accusing the Democrats of being paedophiles...

https://deadstate.org/senator-who-voted-to-protect-bathrooms-from-trans-people-caught-in-hotel-with-underage-boy/

Yes, and then there was Trump's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

I've lost track, has he pardoned Epstein yet? And the others?  After all, they are all good people with minor pecadillos.    /s

Epstein is dead so Trump probably won't waste that pardon.

He is?!?!?  How did I miss that?   Good riddance to bad rubbish.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7198 on: January 19, 2021, 03:39:03 PM »
A Trump cultist is starting to question her beliefs:

Quote
Lorraine went on to say that in the coming days, “we’re gonna know for sure — is Trump really the 5-D master chess player who is gonna just totally decimate the swamp and arrest all these deep state operatives, and everything we’ve seen up until now was just a massive — you know, all these brilliant chess moves … Is justice finally gonna be served? Are we finally gonna see that checkmate? Are we finally gonna see the traps closed? Or, we’re not. Or we’re gonna find out the truth. Maybe things failed. Maybe the QAnon operation wasn’t real. Maybe some things weren’t really the truth.”

https://deadstate.org/trump-cultist-starts-to-wonder-if-pro-trump-conspiracy-theories-are-fake-maybe-qanon-isnt-real/

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7199 on: January 19, 2021, 06:08:55 PM »
I have to imagine that that is why Trump seems to have some trepidation around pardoning himself or his children. His children would not have 5th amendment protections from tattling on their father. So even if Trump pardons his children, there's a potential for them to run into obstruction charges if they don't out their father.

Trump on the other hand has to see a self-pardon as a dangerous thing as well. It would basically be an admission of guilt. So he would end up having a whole slew of Civil cases opened up against him and likely would lose a lot of money. And then at the end of it, it likely wouldn't even be upheld. If Trump tries to pardon himself, it would probably be the riskiest, stupidest thing he did as president.

The "pardoned people don't have 5th amendment protections" thing is blown a bit out of proportion.  Because of our federalist system, the same one the same people are excited to know that anyone pardoned by Trump is only getting out of federal crimes and not state crimes, and the strength of 5th amendment protections in our jurisprudence, it's likely that Trump children who were pardoned would still maintain 5th amendment protections for nearly everything because of their potential vulnerability to legal action at the state level.  I have heard many smart legal scholars opine that attempts to invoke the 5th Amendment by these parties would be likely to be successful in just about any court.

Well, it looks like Trump has been convinced not to pardon GOP members, himself, or his children. Looks like at least the GOP lawyers see it as a likely outcome that he would be legally vulnerable. (But my guess is that it would likely end up hurting him financially.)