Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 500975 times)

EvenSteven

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7050 on: January 14, 2021, 06:52:22 AM »
I thought organic was a foodie thing.  It's political now?

I don't think it is actually a foodie thing, either. It is a trendy thing. Most don't even know what it involves (claiming no pesticides, for example, when actually they use different pesticides, many of which are more likely to leave a trace).
Oh really?

In the EU it's (in nearly all cases) not allowed for "Bio", which is translated as organic.

I'm not optimistic that this impeachment will amount to anything more than the last one did.

The house democrats are a toothless chihuahua gumming Trump's ankle after he finished ransacking the home and as is taking a final glance around to see if he missed any of the silverware.  :P
Yes. And I think it would actually be better strategically for them if there was no impeachment going on.
That way you could have a splitted Rep base in 2024. Or maybe a split between base and leaders, because the heads certainly don't want to lick Trumps arse again.

I was under the impression that pesticide and fertilizer rules where similar in organic in the US and EU, in that "synthetic" fertilizers and pesticides are disallowed (with some exceptions), but "naturally derived" pesticides and fertilizers are used. And because "synthetic" vs "natural" is not a very good stand in for either human or environmental health, the organic label doesn't give much useful information.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7051 on: January 14, 2021, 07:00:58 AM »
I thought organic was a foodie thing.  It's political now?

I don't think it is actually a foodie thing, either. It is a trendy thing. Most don't even know what it involves (claiming no pesticides, for example, when actually they use different pesticides, many of which are more likely to leave a trace).
Oh really?

In the EU it's (in nearly all cases) not allowed for "Bio", which is translated as organic.


I'm the US, there are restrictions on pesticides ("synthetic inputs"), but many "natural" ones are still allowed. Turns out in verifying this answer, some of the worst have recently been restricted, so I do not know if it is still true that they use some that are worse than their synthetic versions.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7052 on: January 14, 2021, 07:27:05 AM »
I don't know what things are like in the US, but in Canada 'organic' is largely policed by farmers themselves.  My dad grows organic soy beans, corn, and has a small apple orchard - all organic grown.  He has been doing it for fifteen years, and has never had his crop inspected.  Last I heart there were only two inspectors in all of Ontario tasked to checking if things are organic.

I'd be very surprised if all 'organic' stuff on the shelves was actually grown in an organic manner in Canada.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7053 on: January 14, 2021, 07:42:44 AM »
I don't know what things are like in the US, but in Canada 'organic' is largely policed by farmers themselves.  My dad grows organic soy beans, corn, and has a small apple orchard - all organic grown.  He has been doing it for fifteen years, and has never had his crop inspected.  Last I heart there were only two inspectors in all of Ontario tasked to checking if things are organic.

I'd be very surprised if all 'organic' stuff on the shelves was actually grown in an organic manner in Canada.

In the US, anyhting labeled 'Organic' certified is handled through the USDA (Dept of Ag.).  We're actually going through the process and it's pretty intensive and comprehensive. Not only are you limited on the fertilizers and pest control you can use (nothing synthetically derived), but your source material (i.e. "seed") must come from a certified organic supplier, and farms that were formerly 'conventional' (read: Not 'Organic') must lay fallow or follow verifiable organic protocol for up to five years before you are eligible for an organic label.  and then there's required heavy metals and metalloid testing which is more stringent for Organic certified produce.  It's a PITA but it does give the "organic certification' real meaning and value.

Because it's so expensive, you see a lot of farms that will say they "follow organic practices" or "are applying for organic certification" as a way of boosting their green image without having done all the paperwork.  Some are just greenwashing, some are legit.  Hard to know which is which.

Watchmaker

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7054 on: January 14, 2021, 07:59:25 AM »
Because it's so expensive, you see a lot of farms that will say they "follow organic practices" or "are applying for organic certification" as a way of boosting their green image without having done all the paperwork.  Some are just greenwashing, some are legit.  Hard to know which is which.

For this reason (among others) I prefer to buy as many vegetables as possible from farmers I personally know, and farms I can visit.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 09:16:06 AM by Watchmaker »

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7055 on: January 14, 2021, 08:39:52 AM »
To out myself esp if the price is not significantly different I do try to buy organic. Not because I think it's better for me, but for lower load of pesticides, additives in the environment.

I buy organic for the top half of the dirty dozen.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7056 on: January 14, 2021, 08:54:52 AM »
To out myself esp if the price is not significantly different I do try to buy organic. Not because I think it's better for me, but for lower load of pesticides, additives in the environment.

I buy organic for the top half of the dirty dozen.

(for context)
more info.

I worked near strawberry fields and had a few friends who were employed as inspectors and as sprayers.  I will not eat non-organic strawberries.

EvenSteven

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7057 on: January 14, 2021, 09:09:58 AM »
To out myself esp if the price is not significantly different I do try to buy organic. Not because I think it's better for me, but for lower load of pesticides, additives in the environment.

I buy organic for the top half of the dirty dozen.

(for context)
more info.

I worked near strawberry fields and had a few friends who were employed as inspectors and as sprayers.  I will not eat non-organic strawberries.

Buying organic won't hurt you health, so there is nothing wrong if you want to buy it. That being said, the dirty dozen list by the EWG in a bunch of non-sense marketing from the organic industry targeting consuma suckas to buy their product.

https://www.seattletimes.com/life/wellness/why-the-dirty-dozen-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

Alfred J Quack

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7058 on: January 14, 2021, 09:38:35 AM »
I worked near strawberry fields and had a few friends who were employed as inspectors and as sprayers.  I will not eat non-organic strawberries.
Well, it's quite easy to circumvent non-organic straberries. We've got about 20-25 plants in the garden and from spring to well into september we had about 10-15 strawberries a day. Our oldest went into the yard after dinner and started plucking his dessert himself with extra for his little brother.

No pesticides needed, only a little rinse with water.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7059 on: January 14, 2021, 09:51:00 AM »
We all saw this coming months ago, but here it is:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/14/trump-refusing-to-pay-rudy-giuliani-legal-fees-after-falling-out

Trump refusing to pay his bill with Giuliani.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7060 on: January 14, 2021, 10:24:19 AM »
We all saw this coming months ago, but here it is:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/14/trump-refusing-to-pay-rudy-giuliani-legal-fees-after-falling-out

Trump refusing to pay his bill with Giuliani.

At this point, anyone who does business with Trump and expects to get paid is a damn fool. I assumed that the people still doing business with him recently were riding his coattails for other perks and had accepted any invoices to him as a cost of business.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7061 on: January 14, 2021, 10:32:55 AM »

Buying organic won't hurt you health, so there is nothing wrong if you want to buy it. That being said, the dirty dozen list by the EWG in a bunch of non-sense marketing from the organic industry targeting consuma suckas to buy their product.

https://www.seattletimes.com/life/wellness/why-the-dirty-dozen-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

Reasons to support organic are not limited to the pesticide load or even variety at the time of consumption - a point the article linked above completely ignores.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7062 on: January 14, 2021, 10:37:34 AM »

Buying organic won't hurt you health, so there is nothing wrong if you want to buy it. That being said, the dirty dozen list by the EWG in a bunch of non-sense marketing from the organic industry targeting consuma suckas to buy their product.

https://www.seattletimes.com/life/wellness/why-the-dirty-dozen-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

Reasons to support organic are not limited to the pesticide load or even variety at the time of consumption - a point the article linked above completely ignores.

The article linked above is specifically referring to a report with the subtitle "Shopper's Guide to Pesticides in Produce."

EvenSteven

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7063 on: January 14, 2021, 10:41:13 AM »

Buying organic won't hurt you health, so there is nothing wrong if you want to buy it. That being said, the dirty dozen list by the EWG in a bunch of non-sense marketing from the organic industry targeting consuma suckas to buy their product.

https://www.seattletimes.com/life/wellness/why-the-dirty-dozen-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

Reasons to support organic are not limited to the pesticide load or even variety at the time of consumption - a point the article linked above completely ignores.

I agree, and mentioned as much when I linked the article (even though I am mostly neutral on organic agriculture, so not a supporter). My point that the dirty dozen is a crap list with crap methodology remains.

Sandi_k

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7064 on: January 14, 2021, 11:12:21 AM »

I wish this brought some sense of relief, but I fear that impeaching Trump is the easy part. The long lasting false-mythology of the stolen election, and deep divisions laid bare by the Trump presidency will be tough to grapple with.

This is not a mere political issue - it's a cognitive bias issue, with deep behavioral, neurological and psychological roots.

Implicit bias is a thing - and the research shows that conservatives think in more binary ways than liberals do: it's a yes/no, good/bad/, black/white, right/wrong dynamic.

Just one example of the academic research, here:

https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.16030051

"There is increasing evidence that neurobiological factors mediate where people fall on a general conservative-liberal axis that involves social, cultural, religious, economic, and other domains, as well as political ideology. Many studies now indicate that differences between extreme conservatives and extreme liberals are not entirely due to differences in socioeconomic, cultural, or other learned attributes, or rational consideration of the issues.3 Conservatism-liberalism is also associated with differences in personality, attention, memory, perception, emotional reactions, problem-solving, and response choices..."

So it's not about facts, per se. And it's not something that we can persuade them into or out of. Their brains actually interpret threat, risk, and actions differently.

Two prominent academics who do this sort of research: Dr. Jennifer Eberhardt of Stanford, and Dr. Jack Glaser at Berkeley....

« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 11:51:09 AM by Sandi_k »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7065 on: January 14, 2021, 11:32:42 AM »

I wish this brought some sense of relief, but I fear that impeaching Trump is the easy part. The long lasting false-mythology of the stolen election, and deep divisions laid bare by the Trump presidency will be tough to grapple with.

This is not a mere political issue - it's a cognitive bias issue, with deep behavioral, nuerological and psychological roots.

Implicit bias is a thing - and the research shows that conservatives think in more binary ways than liberals do: it's a yes/no, good/bad/, black/white, right/wrong dynamic.


So much of science is non-binary, and there are so many areas of in-between.  Given that research produces data all the time that makes us revise what we think, does this approach to the world make it more difficult for more binary people to flourish in the sciences?  If so, it might explain part of their mistrust of science and technology, because scientists tend to hedge their explanations because they are never 100% certain.  And if you have a binary type mind, you want a yes/no answer.  Which would also explain why they are so upset that first they were told not to wear masks for Covid and now they are told to wear masks.  They don't inherently like the flip-flop.

As a STEM person myself, who can think of all the "what-ifs" and "yes buts", I tend to mistrust binary presentations and outlooks and philosophies, because I rarely see the world as binary.

Sandi_k

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7066 on: January 14, 2021, 11:49:04 AM »

I wish this brought some sense of relief, but I fear that impeaching Trump is the easy part. The long lasting false-mythology of the stolen election, and deep divisions laid bare by the Trump presidency will be tough to grapple with.

This is not a mere political issue - it's a cognitive bias issue, with deep behavioral, nuerological and psychological roots.

Implicit bias is a thing - and the research shows that conservatives think in more binary ways than liberals do: it's a yes/no, good/bad/, black/white, right/wrong dynamic.


So much of science is non-binary, and there are so many areas of in-between.  Given that research produces data all the time that makes us revise what we think, does this approach to the world make it more difficult for more binary people to flourish in the sciences?  If so, it might explain part of their mistrust of science and technology, because scientists tend to hedge their explanations because they are never 100% certain.  And if you have a binary type mind, you want a yes/no answer.  Which would also explain why they are so upset that first they were told not to wear masks for Covid and now they are told to wear masks.  They don't inherently like the flip-flop.

As a STEM person myself, who can think of all the "what-ifs" and "yes buts", I tend to mistrust binary presentations and outlooks and philosophies, because I rarely see the world as binary.

Exactly. Scientists, academics, political scientists - we all talk about the complexities of the world; the exceptions; the difficulties. Which is, I think, why we also have a hard time shutting people out entirely - we think "if only I could explain this well enough, they'd understand!"

Neuroscience indicates that they actually CAN'T understand.

This is why I wish the Democrats would be less conciliatory. This is not about "coming together" - there is a basic wetware limitation that preserves and enhances the political divide. So Democrats should stake their claim, hold their ground, and let the consequences fall where they may.

But the Democrats aren't wired that way. So we will have an eternal stalemate. It's gonna come down to financing, demographics, and will.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 11:50:38 AM by Sandi_k »

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7067 on: January 14, 2021, 02:29:24 PM »
Neuroscience indicates that they actually CAN'T understand.
I am not a neuroscientist and will admit that I likely didn't understand the entirety of the article but nothing I saw in your previously linked article indicated that "they actually CAN'T understand" any given topic, viewpoint or data set.  That is, perhaps, a somewhat too black/white way to phrase the situation.

Milizard

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7068 on: January 14, 2021, 02:29:36 PM »
I thought organic was a foodie thing.  It's political now?

I don't think it is actually a foodie thing, either. It is a trendy thing. Most don't even know what it involves (claiming no pesticides, for example, when actually they use different pesticides, many of which are more likely to leave a trace).
(Quoting this as the most recent part of this conversation)

The Qanon Shamon guy, I read is an anti-vaxxer, which I guess goes along with the organic thing.

Not sure the 2 go together.  I garden organically and I am a rabid pro-vaxxer. 

Makes more sense in that he listens to online nonsense for both politics and science.  Obviously an anti-masker as well.
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest people into organic food are anti -vaxxers, just there is a correlation in the other direction.
Probably goes along with the fear of 5g as well.  All the Q nonsense. Organics being probably among the smallest and most benign parts of it.

(I do like organic food myself sometimes. Used to be more, but I got more price conscious on some things.)

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7069 on: January 14, 2021, 03:16:25 PM »
A Trump supporter from a non profit I participate in just shared an (old) article that starts out "I am an entertainment journalist who has had the privilege to cover Trump for the last decade. I never heard anything bad about him until he announced his nomination and I am paid to dig up the muck on people."

WHY DO TRUMP SUPPORTERS INSIST ON ANNOUNCING THEIR IGNORANCE LIKE SOME KIND OF FUCKING BADGE?!?

I just want the gaslighting to stop. If y'all want to use this ignorance as some kind of excuse so that you can now walk away from it all, I will do what I can to welcome you back to civil society. But everyone in my circle is doubling down and I am tired of the abuse.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7070 on: January 14, 2021, 03:26:51 PM »
Breaking news:

Trump has told staff not to pay Rudy Giuliani over irritation at being impeached again: report

U.S. President Donald Trump, irritated at being impeached for a second time, has told people to stop paying Rudy Giuliani's legal fees, a person familiar with the matter tells CNN, though aides were not clear if the president was serious about his instructions given he's lashing out at nearly everyone after the day's events.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/america-votes/trump-has-told-staff-not-to-pay-rudy-giuliani-over-irritation-at-being-impeached-again-report-1.5266432

Who saw that coming?    'nuff said.

GreenToTheCore

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7071 on: January 14, 2021, 03:44:27 PM »

Buying organic won't hurt you health, so there is nothing wrong if you want to buy it. That being said, the dirty dozen list by the EWG in a bunch of non-sense marketing from the organic industry targeting consuma suckas to buy their product.

https://www.seattletimes.com/life/wellness/why-the-dirty-dozen-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

Reasons to support organic are not limited to the pesticide load or even variety at the time of consumption - a point the article linked above completely ignores.

I agree, and mentioned as much when I linked the article (even though I am mostly neutral on organic agriculture, so not a supporter). My point that the dirty dozen is a crap list with crap methodology remains.

Thank you for posting this so I didn't have to. Most times when the dirty dozen is mentioned I cringe 'cause it's so misunderstood.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7072 on: January 14, 2021, 05:37:13 PM »
We all saw this coming months ago, but here it is:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/14/trump-refusing-to-pay-rudy-giuliani-legal-fees-after-falling-out

Trump refusing to pay his bill with Giuliani.

Quote
According to the Washington Post, relations between Trump and Giuliani have dramatically cooled. Trump has instructed his aides not to pay Giulianiís outstanding fees. The president is reportedly offended by Giulianiís demand for $20,000 a day Ė a figure the lawyer denies, but which is apparently in writing. White House officials have even been told not to put through any of Giulianiís calls.

Wasn't Trump's campaign staff in an outrage right after the election when Giuliani demanded the $20k and Trump just told them "give him whatever he wants?"

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7073 on: January 15, 2021, 04:19:14 AM »
When Trump thought it was taxpayer money, he was willing to pay Giuliani. It's when it started to look like it was Trump's money that things changed.

It's too bad for Rudy, I know he's going through an expensive divorce, and there are probably a lot of bills.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7074 on: January 15, 2021, 04:30:45 AM »
Trump is "irritated"?
I can't even imagine him irritated. I only know him clueless or/and angry.

I thought organic was a foodie thing.  It's political now?

I don't think it is actually a foodie thing, either. It is a trendy thing. Most don't even know what it involves (claiming no pesticides, for example, when actually they use different pesticides, many of which are more likely to leave a trace).
Oh really?

In the EU it's (in nearly all cases) not allowed for "Bio", which is translated as organic.

I'm not optimistic that this impeachment will amount to anything more than the last one did.

The house democrats are a toothless chihuahua gumming Trump's ankle after he finished ransacking the home and as is taking a final glance around to see if he missed any of the silverware.  :P
Yes. And I think it would actually be better strategically for them if there was no impeachment going on.
That way you could have a splitted Rep base in 2024. Or maybe a split between base and leaders, because the heads certainly don't want to lick Trumps arse again.

I was under the impression that pesticide and fertilizer rules where similar in organic in the US and EU, in that "synthetic" fertilizers and pesticides are disallowed (with some exceptions), but "naturally derived" pesticides and fertilizers are used. And because "synthetic" vs "natural" is not a very good stand in for either human or environmental health, the organic label doesn't give much useful information.
Well, I am far from knowledgeable in that field, but afaik "natural" fertilizers are ok, and for pesticides you have to use e.g. wasps or something you pressed out of plants to spray, that sort of stuff. "nothing synthetical" might be the right ballpark.
Not allowed is hormones. Antibiotics mostly not (definitely not "preventative"), but there are exceptions. Like only if the swine is sick and only that animal and only once.

That is the "basic" EU-Bio regulation.
There are also other "Bio-Labels" that are a lot harsher.

I am not especially looking for Bio prodcuts. I would rather prefer we change the rules for everyone to include the current scientific knowledge (and preferably move to something like permaculture). But as with climate change, "it's going to be really really bad in 50 years so we have to pay money now" is not an especially motivating thing for an industry.

Quote
So it's not about facts, per se. And it's not something that we can persuade them into or out of. Their brains actually interpret threat, risk, and actions differently.
Well, yes. It has been known for some years that the activity level of the Amygdala (emotions, especially fear) and uh... frontal lobe? of the brain (rational thinking) are the most precise predictor of Republican/Democrat party leaning. Even more than parents, which used to be the first factor.
I leave it to you to decide/find out which one is the fear driven and which one is the rational thinking driven party :D

Quote
A Trump supporter from a non profit I participate in just shared an (old) article that starts out "I am an entertainment journalist who has had the privilege to cover Trump for the last decade. I never heard anything bad about him until he announced his nomination and I am paid to dig up the muck on people."

WHY DO TRUMP SUPPORTERS INSIST ON ANNOUNCING THEIR IGNORANCE LIKE SOME KIND OF FUCKING BADGE?!?
Being an entertainment journalist working on Trump and NOT knowing he bullied himself into Home Alone 2 should be sufficient to be banned from the job.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7075 on: January 15, 2021, 06:55:46 AM »
It's too bad for Rudy, I know he's going through an expensive divorce, and there are probably a lot of bills.

I have no sympathy for Rudy.  He enthusiastically signed up to be Trump's on-TV attack dog, and has spent over a year spreading lies, engaging in character assasinations and undermining faith in our democracy.

Details of his divorce do him no favors either.

Quote
A Trump supporter from a non profit I participate in just shared an (old) article that starts out "I am an entertainment journalist who has had the privilege to cover Trump for the last decade. I never heard anything bad about him until he announced his nomination and I am paid to dig up the muck on people."

WHY DO TRUMP SUPPORTERS INSIST ON ANNOUNCING THEIR IGNORANCE LIKE SOME KIND OF FUCKING BADGE?!?
Being an entertainment journalist working on Trump and NOT knowing he bullied himself into Home Alone 2 should be sufficient to be banned from the job.

A cursory search through the NY glossies from the 1980s and 90s will yield **hundreds** of articles detailing the latest outrageous thing Trump did.  Cheating on his wife, stiffing contractors, cheating on his second wife, taking ads out for the 'Central Park V' (now exonerated), praising mobsters, calling political leaders 'losers', etc.  All of these things were a fixture of the NYC scene two decades before he ran for president. 

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7076 on: January 15, 2021, 07:05:25 AM »
It's too bad for Rudy, I know he's going through an expensive divorce, and there are probably a lot of bills.

I have no sympathy for Rudy.  He enthusiastically signed up to be Trump's on-TV attack dog, and has spent over a year spreading lies, engaging in character assasinations and undermining faith in our democracy.

Details of his divorce do him no favors either.

Quote
A Trump supporter from a non profit I participate in just shared an (old) article that starts out "I am an entertainment journalist who has had the privilege to cover Trump for the last decade. I never heard anything bad about him until he announced his nomination and I am paid to dig up the muck on people."

WHY DO TRUMP SUPPORTERS INSIST ON ANNOUNCING THEIR IGNORANCE LIKE SOME KIND OF FUCKING BADGE?!?
Being an entertainment journalist working on Trump and NOT knowing he bullied himself into Home Alone 2 should be sufficient to be banned from the job.

A cursory search through the NY glossies from the 1980s and 90s will yield **hundreds** of articles detailing the latest outrageous thing Trump did.  Cheating on his wife, stiffing contractors, cheating on his second wife, taking ads out for the 'Central Park V' (now exonerated), praising mobsters, calling political leaders 'losers', etc.  All of these things were a fixture of the NYC scene two decades before he ran for president.

Exactly. Donald and Ivana Trump and Marla Maples were household names in the early 90s, and not for anything positive. Clearly this reporter isnít a person who is good at their job.

centwise

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7077 on: January 15, 2021, 07:14:28 AM »

I wish this brought some sense of relief, but I fear that impeaching Trump is the easy part. The long lasting false-mythology of the stolen election, and deep divisions laid bare by the Trump presidency will be tough to grapple with.

This is not a mere political issue - it's a cognitive bias issue, with deep behavioral, nuerological and psychological roots.

Implicit bias is a thing - and the research shows that conservatives think in more binary ways than liberals do: it's a yes/no, good/bad/, black/white, right/wrong dynamic.


So much of science is non-binary, and there are so many areas of in-between.  Given that research produces data all the time that makes us revise what we think, does this approach to the world make it more difficult for more binary people to flourish in the sciences?  If so, it might explain part of their mistrust of science and technology, because scientists tend to hedge their explanations because they are never 100% certain.  And if you have a binary type mind, you want a yes/no answer.  Which would also explain why they are so upset that first they were told not to wear masks for Covid and now they are told to wear masks.  They don't inherently like the flip-flop.

As a STEM person myself, who can think of all the "what-ifs" and "yes buts", I tend to mistrust binary presentations and outlooks and philosophies, because I rarely see the world as binary.

I had heard of these research results, but the comment from RetiredAt63 makes so much sense, it is all falling into place. It really resonates with me. I have close relatives who are conservative Trump supporters. For years I have been mystified by their transition from being STEM people in college to business people (don't misunderstand, I have absolutely nothing against business) who instantly dismiss any scientific research that doesn't fit their preconceptions because of perceived 'liberal bias' in academia. Thanks for posting.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 07:18:53 AM by centwise »

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7078 on: January 15, 2021, 07:35:33 AM »
It's too bad for Rudy, I know he's going through an expensive divorce, and there are probably a lot of bills.

I have no sympathy for Rudy.  He enthusiastically signed up to be Trump's on-TV attack dog, and has spent over a year spreading lies, engaging in character assasinations and undermining faith in our democracy.

Details of his divorce do him no favors either.

Quote
A Trump supporter from a non profit I participate in just shared an (old) article that starts out "I am an entertainment journalist who has had the privilege to cover Trump for the last decade. I never heard anything bad about him until he announced his nomination and I am paid to dig up the muck on people."

WHY DO TRUMP SUPPORTERS INSIST ON ANNOUNCING THEIR IGNORANCE LIKE SOME KIND OF FUCKING BADGE?!?
Being an entertainment journalist working on Trump and NOT knowing he bullied himself into Home Alone 2 should be sufficient to be banned from the job.

A cursory search through the NY glossies from the 1980s and 90s will yield **hundreds** of articles detailing the latest outrageous thing Trump did.  Cheating on his wife, stiffing contractors, cheating on his second wife, taking ads out for the 'Central Park V' (now exonerated), praising mobsters, calling political leaders 'losers', etc.  All of these things were a fixture of the NYC scene two decades before he ran for president.

Exactly. Donald and Ivana Trump and Marla Maples were household names in the early 90s, and not for anything positive. Clearly this reporter isnít a person who is good at their job.

Or they are just being disingenuous intentionally because they still support Trump and rather than besmirch his name, they can spout this line, which other Trump supporters will read and then repeat because they also don't see anything he did before office as vile or despicable.  Or maybe their pro-Trump bias is so blinding that they genuinely didn't hear "anything bad" about him, much like the 33% of americans that still approve of him after the insurrection.  Many in the party still vociferously defend him. 

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7079 on: January 15, 2021, 09:22:00 AM »
"He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7080 on: January 15, 2021, 11:37:58 AM »
Has anyone tried pointing out to Trump that if he quits right now, like as of this writing, but a few hours will be too late, it won't be blatantly obvious that 400,000 Americans died of his "flu." (I use an international tracker because I like to see beyond my nose; he has a little bit more leeway going by CDC numbers).

Also, due to people being all "But BLM!" I did a little research. I remembered the overflowing jails at the time, but it turns out that ~14,000 people were arrested. And the irony is, that the main point of the protests was "If you want us to trust cops, you have to root out the bad apples," but it took this for them to even think about looking at their own forces.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 11:42:54 AM by ixtap »

frugalnacho

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7081 on: January 15, 2021, 12:30:44 PM »
Guaranteed fox news and their ilk will be pinning all covid deaths on Biden come Jan 20.  Hell they might already be pre blaming him.

"*looks stupidly into camera*

Imagine that.  It's January 20th, and Biden is sworn in.  The man who promised to take care of coronavirus, the man who promised to take care of the economy, and yet here we are with record unemployment, record new covid cases, and record covid deaths.  Far worse than what we saw under the Trump administration.  And reports are that those trends are likely to continue."

Yall know exactly who I'm imitating. 

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7082 on: January 15, 2021, 12:35:08 PM »
Guaranteed fox news and their ilk will be pinning all covid deaths on Biden come Jan 20.  Hell they might already be pre blaming him.

"*looks stupidly into camera*

Imagine that.  It's January 20th, and Biden is sworn in.  The man who promised to take care of coronavirus, the man who promised to take care of the economy, and yet here we are with record unemployment, record new covid cases, and record covid deaths.  Far worse than what we saw under the Trump administration.  And reports are that those trends are likely to continue."

Yall know exactly who I'm imitating.

They'll obfuscate it a little bit better than that. They won't mention it til May or June and then throw up a stat about deaths per day since the start of the pandemic under each president. Oh look! Biden's number is so much higher. I guess Trump WAS doing a better job at handling the pandemic.

Then they'll invite on Crenshaw or some other GOP house member to nod and agree to everything and not challenge the statistic at all and then move on to the next piece.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7083 on: January 15, 2021, 02:05:00 PM »
"He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

Here he is, our beloved Big Brother.

He is ever looking after us.

For all of my days I pledge to honor and obey   our beloved Big Brother.


Sandi_k

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7084 on: January 15, 2021, 10:34:15 PM »

I wish this brought some sense of relief, but I fear that impeaching Trump is the easy part. The long lasting false-mythology of the stolen election, and deep divisions laid bare by the Trump presidency will be tough to grapple with.

This is not a mere political issue - it's a cognitive bias issue, with deep behavioral, nuerological and psychological roots.

Implicit bias is a thing - and the research shows that conservatives think in more binary ways than liberals do: it's a yes/no, good/bad/, black/white, right/wrong dynamic.


So much of science is non-binary, and there are so many areas of in-between.  Given that research produces data all the time that makes us revise what we think, does this approach to the world make it more difficult for more binary people to flourish in the sciences?  If so, it might explain part of their mistrust of science and technology, because scientists tend to hedge their explanations because they are never 100% certain.  And if you have a binary type mind, you want a yes/no answer.  Which would also explain why they are so upset that first they were told not to wear masks for Covid and now they are told to wear masks.  They don't inherently like the flip-flop.

As a STEM person myself, who can think of all the "what-ifs" and "yes buts", I tend to mistrust binary presentations and outlooks and philosophies, because I rarely see the world as binary.

I had heard of these research results, but the comment from RetiredAt63 makes so much sense, it is all falling into place. It really resonates with me. I have close relatives who are conservative Trump supporters. For years I have been mystified by their transition from being STEM people in college to business people (don't misunderstand, I have absolutely nothing against business) who instantly dismiss any scientific research that doesn't fit their preconceptions because of perceived 'liberal bias' in academia. Thanks for posting.

Yep. When the doctors figured out that laying Covid patients prone helped avoid lung collapse, and when they realized that intubation was the wrong protocol, deaths went down.

Trump supporters in our family - with college degrees - started in on "no one knows nothing, and this isn't really that bad, if they had just not hooked people up to ventilators, they're idiots..."

We made the point that OF COURSE protocols and treatments evolved; of course we now knew that masks helped both wearers and non-wearers in decreasing transmission...that's called the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. That you adapt once you have better data.

That was taken as "the Dems are just flailing and changing their minds so that they make Trump look bad."

I can't even, any more.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7085 on: January 15, 2021, 11:13:01 PM »
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

Trump's approval rating post January 6th is 33-38%. 
This means of an approximate vote of 50% to 50% that some (12-18%) people who voted for Trump do not think he us the Messiah against Commies/Reds/socialists etc.

Painting all Republicans with the same brush (binary thinking as noted above), leads to circling the wagons around Trump.

12-18% of people who may be reachable might not sound like much, but would form, with the 50% proven against Trump, a significant majority.

Even the Republican Party is a superset of regular Republicans and Trumpers.  Not all Republicans are Trumpers, but most? all? Trumpers are Republicans.

I would suggest the phraseology of "Republicans" as distinguishable from "tRUMP-lickers".

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7086 on: January 16, 2021, 04:52:50 AM »
It's too bad for Rudy, I know he's going through an expensive divorce, and there are probably a lot of bills.

I have no sympathy for Rudy.  He enthusiastically signed up to be Trump's on-TV attack dog, and has spent over a year spreading lies, engaging in character assasinations and undermining faith in our democracy.

Details of his divorce do him no favors either.
What do you expect?
He is just one of the "law and order" people, meaning he wants to make the law that upholds his favorite order. "Law and Order" have always been the methods for thos in power to hold to and wield that power.

That's why people invented the three branches of government, so that you at least could not do more than one of it.


Valley of Plenty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7087 on: January 16, 2021, 08:37:35 AM »
I think there's a certain brand of nonsense that is aimed at the organic-food types. Like - all medicine is bad because it's  "chemicals" and "unnatural" and they don't really understand any of the science behind it. You know, the people who fall for the "dihydrogen monoxide" jokes because they're really just reacting to "that word sounds scary" instead of actual understanding. And they think GMO should be outlawed, not because they understand any of the nuance or science, but because they hear "there's fish DNA in your corn!" and think that sounds unnatural and scary and bad. And then they hear "there's mercury and formaldehyde in that vaccine!" or "there's a virus in that vaccine!" or whatever and they turn into anti-vaxxers because it sounds scary and they don't understand the science at all, and by now all of their news sources are complete quackery and they don't trust scientists or the government.

Obviously a lot of educated people eat organic food, too, but there is a small subset that goes down that hole.

Very well put.

I recently saw an individual in a local facebook group going on about how the COVID vaccine "changes your DNA which was given by GOD"

Unfortunately that kind of conspiratorial fear mongering is extremely common in this part of rural PA. There was a "Stop the Steal" protest outside the courthouse a few days before the capitol riot, with about a hundred angry Trumpets in attendance. About 50% of people in the county don't wear masks, and as a result my county is currently ranked #1 in the state for highest COVID death rate.

I really wish I knew of a way to get through to these people. Ignoring them is starting to feel like ignoring a brush fire raging right outside my house.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7088 on: January 16, 2021, 09:53:08 AM »
Being home so much because of COVID plus winter led me to tinkering with my portable shortwave radio recently. It is a really sensitive radio and thus able to bring in stations on AM, FM and shortwave from far away.

Was scrolling across the AM band last night. I like to see how far away I can hear radio.

The dial was very full of broadcasts. Almost every click of the tuning knob delivered another station. In addition to sports, a little music, there was 15+ radio stations simultaneously broadcasting conservative talk. Listened to several for 5-10 minutes. The quality of information they were sharing was so poor and inaccurate it was laughable. Honestly - dangerous considering what we saw at the Capitol.

The hosts and callers were so completely out of touch with reality. Sometimes the hosts were leading the callers along and other times they were letting the callers say the most off the wall stuff. They were sharing QAnon and conspiracy stuff. Somebody said...

Interspersed with these conservative radio stations were several stations where the host and callers were sharing personal experiences with demons, ghosts and possession. WTH?

This week I stumbled across a Facebook promotion of an EV charger expansion in this area. Again the quality of comments was so unbelievably low and uninformed. Repeatedly people commented that a specific picture of a Russian diamond mine was a lithium mine. And so on and so forth. All it takes is a 30 second search people! Some people seek to wear their ignorance like a badge of honor.

The whole thing is disappointing. I don't know if the average level of discourse has always been this low or its just louder than before.

I'm ready for this era of willful ignorance to be over. Willful because anyone can use a search engine to educate themselves. 

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7089 on: January 16, 2021, 10:15:14 AM »
A great disappointment of the internet has been the gap between what was possible and what has happened. Around 2000, there was much excitement about what internet access could do. Imagine a world in which people, regardless of rural or urban, had most of the knowledge of the world at easy access. The thinking was that it would help lead to a much better informed democracy, a more enlightened electorate, and good for the country (and the world). It is true that there have been massive benefits to the internet. However, the role of information connectedness has played out very differently than projected. The internet also allowed people to find communities that shared their beliefs and stovepipe and narrow their information sources. The threshold for reliable information distribution was evaporated as anyone with a webpage or blog had the same access as sources with editorial review and fact checking. Local newspapers disappeared and isolated fringe ideas became groups and metastasized.

So yes, a 30 second search could verify if a photo was a Russian lithium mine or not (which is pretty remarkable, really). But the problem is that people have cognitive biases to selectively reinforce community held ideas. It takes actual effort in both practical terms and psychological terms to be willing to try and prove yourself wrong or be open minded in moments of new information to question it.

rab-bit

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7090 on: January 16, 2021, 10:59:22 AM »
A great disappointment of the internet has been the gap between what was possible and what has happened. Around 2000, there was much excitement about what internet access could do. Imagine a world in which people, regardless of rural or urban, had most of the knowledge of the world at easy access. The thinking was that it would help lead to a much better informed democracy, a more enlightened electorate, and good for the country (and the world). It is true that there have been massive benefits to the internet. However, the role of information connectedness has played out very differently than projected. The internet also allowed people to find communities that shared their beliefs and stovepipe and narrow their information sources. The threshold for reliable information distribution was evaporated as anyone with a webpage or blog had the same access as sources with editorial review and fact checking. Local newspapers disappeared and isolated fringe ideas became groups and metastasized.

So yes, a 30 second search could verify if a photo was a Russian lithium mine or not (which is pretty remarkable, really). But the problem is that people have cognitive biases to selectively reinforce community held ideas. It takes actual effort in both practical terms and psychological terms to be willing to try and prove yourself wrong or be open minded in moments of new information to question it.

I certainly agree with everything that you said, but I have to wonder why this effect seems so much more pronounced in the USA vs. other countries. Is is the lack of critical thinking skills taught to children in our schools? Or maybe people confounding freedom of speech with a freedom to choose what the facts are? I am curious to hear what other think on this subject.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7091 on: January 16, 2021, 11:53:02 AM »
Is it more pronounced in the USA or is this a stage of societal growth and maturation that the USA is going through?

Seems like I've seen evidence of this kind of BS in the news in Germany and England for example. Of course the fringe hasn't tried to overthrow their government in recent times.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7092 on: January 16, 2021, 11:57:05 AM »
Is it more pronounced in the USA or is this a stage of societal growth and maturation that the USA is going through?

Seems like I've seen evidence of this kind of BS in the news in Germany and England for example. Of course the fringe hasn't tried to overthrow their government in recent times.

I think it is pretty wide spread, and the US is in a 3 way race for looniest leader in the Americas (Brazil and Mexico are putting up a good fight for it, but I am hoping we forfeit on Jan 20).

Abe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7093 on: January 16, 2021, 11:58:19 AM »
Is it more pronounced in the USA or is this a stage of societal growth and maturation that the USA is going through?

Seems like I've seen evidence of this kind of BS in the news in Germany and England for example. Of course the fringe hasn't tried to overthrow their government in recent times.

I think trying to destroy each other and leaving millions dead in the wake forces societies to either collapse or grow up. It seems that the latter happened after WWII for Europe. The US was affected, but less so. If anyone "won" WW2 it was us, and we didn't learn the proper lessons from that experience (too much "we're the best! let's beat the commies!" and not enough "well that was really really stupid and how about we don't do that again, ever?"). That type of cultural jingo-ism is much more a part of most US cultures than European cultures. That's my History 101 - level take on it. Will not bore anyone with the further nuances (of which there are many).

SotI

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7094 on: January 16, 2021, 12:46:37 PM »
I certainly agree with everything that you said, but I have to wonder why this effect seems so much more pronounced in the USA vs. other countries. Is is the lack of critical thinking skills taught to children in our schools? Or maybe people confounding freedom of speech with a freedom to choose what the facts are? I am curious to hear what other think on this subject.
In my youth in those stone age times when private TV stations and programmes started to become more wide-spread, our teachers observed that "this medium makes the smart smarter and the dumb dumber".
So, same discussion, it seems the same applies to the internet.

I consider it human nature, and no, I don't think it's specific to the US (ofc only going by what I can read/see), it just has the tendency to become more visible there first.

edited: typo
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 01:21:23 PM by SotI »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7095 on: January 16, 2021, 01:05:10 PM »
A great disappointment of the internet has been the gap between what was possible and what has happened. Around 2000, there was much excitement about what internet access could do. Imagine a world in which people, regardless of rural or urban, had most of the knowledge of the world at easy access. The thinking was that it would help lead to a much better informed democracy, a more enlightened electorate, and good for the country (and the world). It is true that there have been massive benefits to the internet. However, the role of information connectedness has played out very differently than projected. The internet also allowed people to find communities that shared their beliefs and stovepipe and narrow their information sources. The threshold for reliable information distribution was evaporated as anyone with a webpage or blog had the same access as sources with editorial review and fact checking. Local newspapers disappeared and isolated fringe ideas became groups and metastasized.


I certainly agree with everything that you said, but I have to wonder why this effect seems so much more pronounced in the USA vs. other countries. Is is the lack of critical thinking skills taught to children in our schools? Or maybe people confounding freedom of speech with a freedom to choose what the facts are? I am curious to hear what other think on this subject.


Under the First Amendment, freedom of speech necessarily includes one's  freedom to choose the "factual" basis of their assertions and arguments as well their choice to knowingly introduce   falsehoods in  the marketplace of ideas in which  all speech may be scrutinized  for its truth or falsity, and upon the conclusion of either,  the speaker  justly  credited or discredited.

"I think we should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions we loathe and believe to be fraught with death unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purpose of the law that an immediate check is  required to save the country."

"Only the emergency that makes it immediately dangerous to leave the correction of evil to the counsels of time warrants making any exception to the sweeping command, 'Congress shall make no [law] abridging the freedom of speech.'"



Abrams v. United States
  (1919)

Persecution for the expression of opinions seems to me perfectly logical.

If you have no doubt of your premises or your power and want a certain result with all your heart you naturally express your wishes in law and sweep away all opposition.

But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas.

 The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out.

That at any rate is the theory of our Constitution. It is an experiment as all life is an experiment.

Every year if not every day we have to wager our salvation upon some prophecy based upon imperfect knowledge.

While that experiment is part of our system I think we should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions we loathe and believe to be fraught with death unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purpose of the law that an immediate check is  required to save the country.

Only the emergency that makes it immediately dangerous to leave the correction of evil to the counsels of time warrants making any exception to the sweeping command, 'Congress shall make no [law] abridging the freedom of speech."  Justice Holmes (Dissent)





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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7096 on: January 16, 2021, 01:13:15 PM »
[quote author=SotI link=topic=109023.msg2775000#msg2775000

In my youth in those stone age times when private TV stations and programmes started to become more wide-spread, our teachers observed that "this medium makes the smart snarter and the dumb dumber".
So, same discussion, it seems the same applies to the internet.

I consider it human nature, and no, I don't think it's specific to the US (ofc only going by what I can read/see), it just has the tendency to become more visible there first.
[/quote]


Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Television and the Public Interest" was a speech given by Federal Communications Commission (FCC) chairman Newton N. Minow to the convention of the National Association of Broadcasters on May 9, 1961. The speech was Minow's first major speech after he was appointed chairman of the FCC by President John F. Kennedy. In the speech, Minow referred to American commercial television programming as a "vast wasteland" and advocated for programming in the public interest. In hindsight, the speech marked the end of a Golden Age of Television that had run through the 1950s, contrasting the highbrow programs of that decade with what had appeared on American television in 1960 and 1961.

When television is good, nothing ó not the theater, not the magazines or newspapers ó nothing is better.

But when television is bad, nothing is worse. I invite each of you to sit down in front of your own television set when your station goes on the air and stay there, for a day, without a book, without a magazine, without a newspaper, without a profit and loss sheet or a rating book to distract you. Keep your eyes glued to that set until the station signs off. I can assure you that what you will observe is a vast wasteland.

You will see a procession of game shows, formula comedies about totally unbelievable families, blood and thunder, mayhem, violence, sadism, murder, western bad men, western good men, private eyes, gangsters, more violence, and cartoons. And endlessly, commercials ó many screaming, cajoling, and offending. And most of all, boredom. True, you'll see a few things you will enjoy. But they will be very, very few. And if you think I exaggerate, I only ask you to try it.[1]

In his speech Minow also shared advice to his audience:

Television and all who participate in it are jointly accountable to the American public for respect for the special needs of children, for community responsibility, for the advancement of education and culture, for the acceptability of the program materials chosen, for decency and decorum in production, and for propriety in advertising. This responsibility cannot be discharged by any given group of programs, but can be discharged only through the highest standards of respect for the American home, applied to every moment of every program presented by television. Program materials should enlarge the horizons of the viewer, provide him with wholesome entertainment, afford helpful stimulation, and remind him of the responsibilities which the citizen has toward his society.[2]

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7097 on: January 16, 2021, 07:29:15 PM »

Was scrolling across the AM band last night. I like to see how far away I can hear radio.

The dial was very full of broadcasts. Almost every click of the tuning knob delivered another station. In addition to sports, a little music, there was 15+ radio stations simultaneously broadcasting conservative talk. Listened to several for 5-10 minutes. The quality of information they were sharing was so poor and inaccurate it was laughable. Honestly - dangerous considering what we saw at the Capitol.


Ha ha! You found Coast to Coast!  It's been around for like 40 years in some fashion.

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7098 on: January 16, 2021, 07:58:54 PM »
Coast to coast.    Were they actually serious?   I always thought it was a joke, like the old national enquirer only not so serious.

From today's coast to coast front page, some folks in BC were smoking a bit of wacky tobacky on Christmas:

Quote
A group of friends in British Columbia who were traveling home on Christmas night claim that their journey came to a sudden stop when they spotted what they believe was a Sasquatch. The curious encounter reportedly occurred along a highway near the community of Silverton. According to Erica Spink-DíSouza, who was in the backseat of the vehicle, their trip took an unexpected turn when the driver and the person on the passenger side of the car noticed something truly strange on the side of the road.

"They said it looked like a huge grizzly, or it was a large man, standing up," she recalled, noting that she missed out on seeing the mysterious beast from the backseat of the car. "We tried to turn around and look again," Spink-D'Souza lamented, "but it was gone." In an indication that the sighting was not a joke being made by the other people in the car, the group actually went through the trouble of returning to the scene later that night after they had put their kids to bed.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #7099 on: January 16, 2021, 08:06:01 PM »
Giuliani is going to double down on voter fraud, because that is Trump's best defense...