Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 357308 times)

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4400 on: September 29, 2020, 10:37:49 AM »
If anyone needs some somewhat dark humor... whenever I hear about Trump's taxes I think of this clip:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2q-Csk-ktc

David Mitchell on tax avoidance vs. evasion. The examples are from the UK but it's perfectly relatable to US.
(Volume warning: it starts off with loud applause)
(Language warning: there are a couple salty phrases used)

Trump is still under audit for his $73M 2010 refund based on obviously questionable credits and deductions.

It's also not strictly about tax avoidance, even if the deductions are legitimate. It's about "draining the swamp." The credits/deductions that Trump and other uber-rich people use don't exist for the merely $60k income people. To put it another way, a $60k employee pays more in income taxes than Trump does, both in raw number and in percentage.

lemanfan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4401 on: September 29, 2020, 10:55:44 AM »
I'm not used to this.  Can't everyone just forget about us and talk about other countries?  What about Belgium?  Vietnam? The Gambia? :)


In Germany your income is more secret than who was the woman you betrayed your wife with.
There, was not that hard :D

Thank you. :)

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4402 on: September 29, 2020, 12:32:58 PM »

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4403 on: September 29, 2020, 12:56:17 PM »
Can we chant "lock him up! lock him up!" yet?

Turnaround is still fair play -right? ;)

PDXTabs

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4404 on: September 29, 2020, 12:58:43 PM »
Turnaround is still fair play -right? ;)

yup

v8rx7guy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4405 on: September 29, 2020, 01:00:04 PM »
This seems to be a good breakdown of the issues raised in the NYT story:

https://www.justsecurity.org/72604/ten-quick-takeaways-from-the-new-york-times-bombshell-article-on-trumps-tax-returns/

Counter points to almost all of that (and some really interesting nuggets of advice for business owners):

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3IQF9OjMPyfdvvncjWD8AH

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4406 on: September 29, 2020, 03:27:29 PM »
This seems to be a good breakdown of the issues raised in the NYT story:

https://www.justsecurity.org/72604/ten-quick-takeaways-from-the-new-york-times-bombshell-article-on-trumps-tax-returns/

Counter points to almost all of that (and some really interesting nuggets of advice for business owners):

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3IQF9OjMPyfdvvncjWD8AH

Did you have time to listen to the whole 2 hours and 10 minutes?   I listened to about 10 minutes where he was talking about Trump's "Apprentice" income and licensing.    The NYTimes said that Trump was a more successful actor than a businessman.    The radical finance guy claimed that this was not true because "perception is reality".     And he would also really like to make 400M USD.     

My 10 minutes was not very impressive.

v8rx7guy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4407 on: September 29, 2020, 03:33:51 PM »
This seems to be a good breakdown of the issues raised in the NYT story:

https://www.justsecurity.org/72604/ten-quick-takeaways-from-the-new-york-times-bombshell-article-on-trumps-tax-returns/

Counter points to almost all of that (and some really interesting nuggets of advice for business owners):

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3IQF9OjMPyfdvvncjWD8AH

Did you have time to listen to the whole 2 hours and 10 minutes?   I listened to about 10 minutes where he was talking about Trump's "Apprentice" income and licensing.    The NYTimes said that Trump was a more successful actor than a businessman.    The radical finance guy claimed that this was not true because "perception is reality".     And he would also really like to make 400M USD.     

My 10 minutes was not very impressive.

Yeah, I did... he is one of my favorite FI podcasters .  I'd encourage you to get past the first 10 minutes.

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4408 on: September 29, 2020, 04:34:05 PM »
...did not have an opinion they felt was worth expressing.
If an opinion is felt in the forest but not counted by an elections tally, is it still part of public opinion?
No, it is a private opinion.
That's your opinion. :)
No, it's a fact as per the way you chose to word your question.

"not counted by an elections tally"

Ergo, not public.

Therefore, private.
The semantics here are between "public" as in "publicized" (your take) vs. "of or relating to people in general" (my take).  One can make the case that an opinion isn't public unless it is publicized, or one can make the case that the collective opinion of the general public is the public opinion.

Take your pick.

In any case, of the people who voted, Clinton got more total votes, but Trump still won where it counted.

They are not mutually exclusive.

There is no way to tell what someone's opinion is unless they express it.  There is no way to tell what the collective public opinion is unless all private opinions are expressed and noted.

So an opinion that is not expressed is neither publicized nor part of the collective public opinion.

I do agree with your second point.  Trump was smart in that he played to the minority that your Constitution gives more influence and power to.  That was kind of the entire point that started this little side topic.

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4409 on: September 29, 2020, 04:40:05 PM »
...did not have an opinion they felt was worth expressing.
If an opinion is felt in the forest but not counted by an elections tally, is it still part of public opinion?
No, it is a private opinion.
That's your opinion. :)
No, it's a fact as per the way you chose to word your question.

"not counted by an elections tally"

Ergo, not public.

Therefore, private.
The semantics here are between "public" as in "publicized" (your take) vs. "of or relating to people in general" (my take).  One can make the case that an opinion isn't public unless it is publicized, or one can make the case that the collective opinion of the general public is the public opinion.

Take your pick.

In any case, of the people who voted, Clinton got more total votes, but Trump still won where it counted.

They are not mutually exclusive.

There is no way to tell what someone's opinion is unless they express it.  There is no way to tell what the collective public opinion is unless all private opinions are expressed and noted.

So an opinion that is not expressed is neither publicized nor part of the collective public opinion.

I do agree with your second point.  Trump was smart in that he played to the minority that your Constitution gives more influence and power to.  That was kind of the entire point that started this little side topic.
Seems a good place to end this tangent. Cheers!

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4410 on: September 29, 2020, 04:41:09 PM »
I'm saying that "winning in the court of public opinion" is
1) irrelevant, and
2) impossible to ascertain based on vote totals when there is no reason for a candidate to worry about vote totals per se.
Do you disagree?
Agree with 1.  The artifact of your wacky electoral system which is in complete opposition of the fundamental principle of 1 person = 1 vote ensures "winning in the court of public opinion" is irrelevant.

2 is blatantly incorrect.  It is quite easy to tell who "won in the court of popular opinion" based on vote totals whether there is any reason for a candidate to worry about vote totals or not.  The totals are the totals and those totals are the sum total of "public opinion".  Anyone who did not vote, did not have an opinion they felt was worth expressing.

I'm with MDM on this one. I think my fellow Democrats (I still can say that, although it's getting more difficult) would do well to retire the "Hillary won the popular vote so Trump is less legitimate" or "Hillary won the popular vote so she won the court of public opinion" arguments. Hillary won a game they weren't playing. Trump won the game they were playing 304 to 227 and did so by appealing to the right number of potential voters in the right places. If he was playing the popular vote game he would have had a different game plan and a different popular vote total.

The 58% of eligible voters who chose to vote in 2016 are not at all a representative sample reflecting national public opinion even without considering the impact of the electoral college system. A responsibly done representative sampling of 2000 eligible voters would be a much better gauge of actual public opinion than an election with 138 million votes cast in essentially 50 individual elections where the overall popular vote margin was only 2.1%.
I completely agree that Trump won the game that was being played.  Never said anything different and never claimed he was less legitimate as President because of that.


Bloop Bloop

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4412 on: September 30, 2020, 03:20:15 AM »
The fact that Trump is still in the running as a lying fascist says something about the sheer stupidity of the American people, does it not?

Here in Australia almost everyone, left wing or right wing, can denounce Trump's tactics and his rhetoric.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4413 on: September 30, 2020, 04:55:03 AM »
The fact that Trump is still in the running as a lying fascist says something about the sheer stupidity of the American people, does it not?
.

Letís stick to the forum rules and avoid blanket insults.  The majority of Americans do not approve of Trump, and some of those who have voted for him do so for policy reasons but dislike his actions.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4414 on: September 30, 2020, 05:27:28 AM »
Here in Australia almost everyone, left wing or right wing, can denounce Trump's tactics and his rhetoric.

I hear Pauline Hanson is a fan. I know a bunch of people here who do support him.

That said, many people I talk to, including those who are politically right of centre here, have said to me they think Trump is a dickhead.

He's displayed just that at the debate. Could he go 30 seconds without interrupting anyone? Next time I hope they mute the microphone when the other candidate is speaking! It seems that Trump's tactic was to constantly interrupt and break the rules of the debate, only to claim bias when he's called out.

rantk81

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4415 on: September 30, 2020, 06:19:34 AM »
There've been so many outrageous moments over the past 4 years... but I don't think anything can top the moment when a sitting president basically told a right wing racist group to "Stand By" -- apparently advocating for the group to disrupt the election process or prevent a peaceful transition to a new president?  Wow.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 06:56:53 AM by rantk81 »

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4416 on: September 30, 2020, 06:20:09 AM »
Here in Australia almost everyone, left wing or right wing, can denounce Trump's tactics and his rhetoric.

It seems that Trump's tactic was to constantly interrupt and break the rules of the debate, only to claim bias when he's called out.

Strange, that sounds like his approach to elections in general.

dignam

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4417 on: September 30, 2020, 06:35:12 AM »
The fact that Trump is still in the running as a lying fascist says something about the sheer stupidity of the American people, does it not?

Here in Australia almost everyone, left wing or right wing, can denounce Trump's tactics and his rhetoric.

Well this is just a little insulting. 

In my world travels, I've learned one thing:  There are idiots in every country.

Last night's debate made me feel physically sick.  That poor moderator...

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4418 on: September 30, 2020, 06:54:50 AM »
The fact that Trump is still in the running as a lying fascist says something about the sheer stupidity of the American people, does it not?

Here in Australia almost everyone, left wing or right wing, can denounce Trump's tactics and his rhetoric.

Well this is just a little insulting. 

In my world travels, I've learned one thing:  There are idiots in every country.

Last night's debate made me feel physically sick.  That poor moderator...

I gave up after the first 5 minutes. Apparently I missed the direct command from the current president to our modern brownshirts (aka, the far-right-wing Proud Boys) to "stand by."

I'm trying to steel myself for the likelihood that Trump will win in November. It seems probable. He's given his base exactly what they want. Expect a lot more unchecked violence from the right-wing, especially as the Fraternal Order of Police is in Trump's back pocket.

I also don't feel too sorry for Chris Wallace. He chooses to work at Fox News, has interviewed Trump several times (including this summer), and should have known what to expect. His apparent refusal to moderate effectively was not surprising, given that I'm sure he is beholden to his employer.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4419 on: September 30, 2020, 07:32:22 AM »
He's displayed just that at the debate. Could he go 30 seconds without interrupting anyone? Next time I hope they mute the microphone when the other candidate is speaking! It seems that Trump's tactic was to constantly interrupt and break the rules of the debate, only to claim bias when he's called out.

Both parties have to agree to the rules of the debate beforehand or there wouldn't be a debate, and I bet you ever dollar I have that the Trump campaign would never agree to a debate where the moderator could mute the mic of the person who's not supposed to talk. This is how it is because this is how Trump wants it.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4420 on: September 30, 2020, 07:43:00 AM »
He's displayed just that at the debate. Could he go 30 seconds without interrupting anyone? Next time I hope they mute the microphone when the other candidate is speaking! It seems that Trump's tactic was to constantly interrupt and break the rules of the debate, only to claim bias when he's called out.

Both parties have to agree to the rules of the debate beforehand or there wouldn't be a debate, and I bet you ever dollar I have that the Trump campaign would never agree to a debate where the moderator could mute the mic of the person who's not supposed to talk. This is how it is because this is how Trump wants it.

I disagree.  Trump has proven to be too much of a narcissit to refuse a nationally televised chance to attack his opponent, and the polls show that he desperately needs to move the needle,  and quickly. Trump's base has been clamoring for more debates on the hope that Biden would have some sort of senior moment that could "prove" their theory that he's senile.
IMO the network could have and should have cut off each debator's respective microphones whenever it was not their turn to speak.  But Wallace said publicly that he wanted to be "as invisible as possible" and let the debate play out on its own.  Which is what happened.

I don't think anyone was well served by last night's sideshow.  Had each candidate been allowed to (and forced to) speak uninterrupted for 2 minute stretches followed by a rebutal (which is what both sides actually agreed to in the debate rules) the public would have been better served.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4421 on: September 30, 2020, 07:43:13 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

I'm not even talking about his "politics", in the sense that (as a fiscal conservative) I can kinda see the reasoning behind at least some of his policies. I'm talking about his overtly demeaning, misogynist, racist rhetoric.

Sure, Pauline Hanson got some traction in Australia (albeit 25 years ago) with overtly racist rhetoric. But she was from a loony far right party that got about 10% of the vote at its peak. Trump is the president. And his call-outs of the dead son of his opponent, his lack of tact and grace, are just astounding. Brazen. The guy needs a little class.

I would have thought that in most environments the kind of boasting that Trump partakes in would elicit social disapproval.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4422 on: September 30, 2020, 07:50:06 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

The problem here is your issuance of a blanket statement that Americans are stupid ("...the sheer stupidity of the American people).  Calling a group of people stupid is in violation of the forum rules (1, 2, 4 & 6), and extending it to a much larger demographic is nationalistic stereotyping. 

jrhampt

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4423 on: September 30, 2020, 08:05:14 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

The problem here is your issuance of a blanket statement that Americans are stupid ("...the sheer stupidity of the American people).  Calling a group of people stupid is in violation of the forum rules (1, 2, 4 & 6), and extending it to a much larger demographic is nationalistic stereotyping.

I mean, as an American myself I think it's a fair statement.  As a whole, we are a pretty stupid country to have put that guy in office.

eljefe-speaks

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4424 on: September 30, 2020, 08:20:51 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

He lost the popular vote. As was said earlier, the majority of Americans vehemently disagree with Trump. Ironic that you use stupid logic to claim that Americans are stupid.

dignam

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4425 on: September 30, 2020, 08:25:44 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

I'm not even talking about his "politics", in the sense that (as a fiscal conservative) I can kinda see the reasoning behind at least some of his policies. I'm talking about his overtly demeaning, misogynist, racist rhetoric.

Sure, Pauline Hanson got some traction in Australia (albeit 25 years ago) with overtly racist rhetoric. But she was from a loony far right party that got about 10% of the vote at its peak. Trump is the president. And his call-outs of the dead son of his opponent, his lack of tact and grace, are just astounding. Brazen. The guy needs a little class.

I would have thought that in most environments the kind of boasting that Trump partakes in would elicit social disapproval.

Still, your blanket statement about idiot Americans is off base.  So much holier than thou coming from your posts.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe what our President stands for.  But you have to credit him in appealing to a certain type of person and getting (almost) half the country to vote for him. 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 08:28:56 AM by dignam »

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4426 on: September 30, 2020, 08:42:13 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

I'm not even talking about his "politics", in the sense that (as a fiscal conservative) I can kinda see the reasoning behind at least some of his policies. I'm talking about his overtly demeaning, misogynist, racist rhetoric.

Sure, Pauline Hanson got some traction in Australia (albeit 25 years ago) with overtly racist rhetoric. But she was from a loony far right party that got about 10% of the vote at its peak. Trump is the president. And his call-outs of the dead son of his opponent, his lack of tact and grace, are just astounding. Brazen. The guy needs a little class.

I would have thought that in most environments the kind of boasting that Trump partakes in would elicit social disapproval.

Still, your blanket statement about idiot Americans is off base.  So much holier than thou coming from your posts.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe what our President stands for.  But you have to credit him in appealing to a certain type of person and getting (almost) half the country to vote for him.

Much less than half. Somewhere around half of eligible voters didnít vote, and then more than half of those who did voted for Clinton. So really less than 25% voted for him. He only won by a hair in three states that determined the outcome because of the Electoral College (as has been discussed ad nauseum upthread).

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4427 on: September 30, 2020, 08:45:51 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

I'm not even talking about his "politics", in the sense that (as a fiscal conservative) I can kinda see the reasoning behind at least some of his policies. I'm talking about his overtly demeaning, misogynist, racist rhetoric.

Sure, Pauline Hanson got some traction in Australia (albeit 25 years ago) with overtly racist rhetoric. But she was from a loony far right party that got about 10% of the vote at its peak. Trump is the president. And his call-outs of the dead son of his opponent, his lack of tact and grace, are just astounding. Brazen. The guy needs a little class.

I would have thought that in most environments the kind of boasting that Trump partakes in would elicit social disapproval.
Why do you think human nature has changed so much in the last $selectyournumber of years?

You don't need to be good, you only need to be a good seller. That could be the inofficial motto of the US.
Trump knows how to sell himself to a certain audience. An audience who wants a certain "truth" and get's it from him. Every disapproval is either the enemies showing their nerves or people who just don't get it.
Hitler didn't start as Chancellor. And Spartakus wasn't exactly a king. The mechanism is the same.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4428 on: September 30, 2020, 08:46:24 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I loathe what our President stands for.  But you have to credit him in appealing to a certain type of person and getting (almost) half the country to vote for him.

I'm of a split mind on this. On one hand, I think it's true that the only reason Trump won the Republican primary is because the "sane Republican vote" was split between too many other candidates for too long, and the only reasons he won the election is because:
  • Republicans always vote, and always vote Republican
  • The Electoral College is (currently) biased towards Republicans
  • Hillary was also a historically unpopular candidate (largely because of the last several decades of targeted Republican hate-mongering and conspiracy-theorizing against her specifically)
  • We were just coming off 8 years of a Democratic president, and a certain percentage of people always swing back and forth on purpose

So it seems like basically all the stars aligned perfectly to allow Trump to squeak in an EC victory, and that if you repeated the process he probably wouldn't even get close to nominated.

On the other hand Trump still today has a 92% approval rating among Republicans, and my parent's church is currently telling people they have to be willing to take up arms to "dispatch" the "Marxists who want to take away your freedom" in the oncoming "inevitable and just" Civil War II, so there's absolutely a lot of blame to spread around on the right for Trump.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4429 on: September 30, 2020, 08:50:17 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

The problem here is your issuance of a blanket statement that Americans are stupid ("...the sheer stupidity of the American people).  Calling a group of people stupid is in violation of the forum rules (1, 2, 4 & 6), and extending it to a much larger demographic is nationalistic stereotyping.

I mean, as an American myself I think it's a fair statement.  As a whole, we are a pretty stupid country to have put that guy in office.

Yeah, creating a system in which Florida gets to pick our head of state isn't what anybody wanted.

Barbaebigode

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4430 on: September 30, 2020, 08:59:33 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

The problem here is your issuance of a blanket statement that Americans are stupid ("...the sheer stupidity of the American people).  Calling a group of people stupid is in violation of the forum rules (1, 2, 4 & 6), and extending it to a much larger demographic is nationalistic stereotyping.

I mean, as an American myself I think it's a fair statement.  As a whole, we are a pretty stupid country to have put that guy in office.

Yeah, creating a system in which Florida gets to pick our head of state isn't what anybody wanted.

And the Electoral College it's a bizarre creation that helps a lot creating a two party system. People complaining of having to vote for the least worst option should take note of that.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4431 on: September 30, 2020, 09:05:07 AM »
Sometimes voting for the least worst option is what we have to do.  If that is still a bad option then it is time to work on that before the next election.

This happens in 2 party and multiple party systems.  As a voter in a multiple-party system I've voted for my second choice to be sure my worst choice didn't get in, it happens. 

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4432 on: September 30, 2020, 09:07:54 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

I'm not even talking about his "politics", in the sense that (as a fiscal conservative) I can kinda see the reasoning behind at least some of his policies. I'm talking about his overtly demeaning, misogynist, racist rhetoric.

Sure, Pauline Hanson got some traction in Australia (albeit 25 years ago) with overtly racist rhetoric. But she was from a loony far right party that got about 10% of the vote at its peak. Trump is the president. And his call-outs of the dead son of his opponent, his lack of tact and grace, are just astounding. Brazen. The guy needs a little class.

I would have thought that in most environments the kind of boasting that Trump partakes in would elicit social disapproval.

Still, your blanket statement about idiot Americans is off base.  So much holier than thou coming from your posts.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe what our President stands for.  But you have to credit him in appealing to a certain type of person and getting (almost) half the country to vote for him.

Oh yeah, I give him credit in being a very good demagogue. I also don't think that he as a person is stupid - anything but. He's been incredibly successful. My attack is upon the 'certain type of person' who votes for him. In my view, this transcends normal left/right politics because so many of Trump's pronouncements are idiosyncratic.

Barbaebigode

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4433 on: September 30, 2020, 09:42:53 AM »
Sometimes voting for the least worst option is what we have to do.  If that is still a bad option then it is time to work on that before the next election.

This happens in 2 party and multiple party systems.  As a voter in a multiple-party system I've voted for my second choice to be sure my worst choice didn't get in, it happens.

I understand that. I voted for the least worst many times on the second round of an election. But in the first round I always vote for my first choice and I don't think my vote was wasted since both candidates usually form coalitions for the second round. It's far from a perfect system, but it's better at giving a third our forth party a voice than the EC.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4434 on: September 30, 2020, 09:52:47 AM »
There is going to be a lot more violence now that he explicitly gave a call-to-arms to white supremacist groups on national television.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4435 on: September 30, 2020, 09:54:37 AM »
Sure, there are dumb people in every country. But at the end of the day, Americans elected a guy like Trump. You can't wash that stain off your hands.

I'm not even talking about his "politics", in the sense that (as a fiscal conservative) I can kinda see the reasoning behind at least some of his policies. I'm talking about his overtly demeaning, misogynist, racist rhetoric.

Sure, Pauline Hanson got some traction in Australia (albeit 25 years ago) with overtly racist rhetoric. But she was from a loony far right party that got about 10% of the vote at its peak. Trump is the president. And his call-outs of the dead son of his opponent, his lack of tact and grace, are just astounding. Brazen. The guy needs a little class.

I would have thought that in most environments the kind of boasting that Trump partakes in would elicit social disapproval.

Still, your blanket statement about idiot Americans is off base.  So much holier than thou coming from your posts.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe what our President stands for.  But you have to credit him in appealing to a certain type of person and getting (almost) half the country to vote for him.

Oh yeah, I give him credit in being a very good demagogue. I also don't think that he as a person is stupid - anything but. He's been incredibly successful. My attack is upon the 'certain type of person' who votes for him. In my view, this transcends normal left/right politics because so many of Trump's pronouncements are idiosyncratic.

Counterpoint: Trumpism is a minority movement, and the energy it's given to the Progressive movement will lead to a whole series of welcome changes in a few years' time.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4436 on: September 30, 2020, 10:01:03 AM »
There is going to be a lot more violence now that he explicitly gave a call-to-arms to white supremacist groups on national television.

The white supremacists are certainly happy about it.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4437 on: September 30, 2020, 10:07:11 AM »
Sometimes voting for the least worst option is what we have to do.  If that is still a bad option then it is time to work on that before the next election.

This happens in 2 party and multiple party systems.  As a voter in a multiple-party system I've voted for my second choice to be sure my worst choice didn't get in, it happens.

I understand that. I voted for the least worst many times on the second round of an election. But in the first round I always vote for my first choice and I don't think my vote was wasted since both candidates usually form coalitions for the second round. It's far from a perfect system, but it's better at giving a third our forth party a voice than the EC.

In 1992 New Zealand changed their representation structure to a more proportionate form. This was done by popular vote. America's system for selecting elected officials is a weird hybrid between rural British local election system and representation concessions to slavery to make the union be able to come together. It is flat out not intended to be representative, but a power brokered bargain. Changing to proportionate representation (by state or region/state grouping) coupled with ranked choice voting would lead to a much more representative government. The respective heads of major parties would be loathe to go for this now, even though it would give a future GOP more power and voice as demographics shift away from their chosen base. As it is, even with Trump magically gone, the polarization is baked into the system. It will continue to get worse as people increasingly see successive elections as more of an existential threat as our primary structure, political/identity alignments and media feedback loops (hellooooo facebook!) amplify the edges rather than the center. NZ has shown that it is possible to change your selection process for representatives and not explode as a country. It would obviously play out differently in the US, but our current system is increasingly set up to foster internal intra- and inter-branch conflict rather than compromise (the ultimate goal of democracy) and actual governance.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4438 on: September 30, 2020, 11:14:29 AM »
Some takeaways from the debate last night, which went off the rails very quickly. If another debate is done they will need to have muting of the mics etc, because it is clear Trump is unwilling (possibly unable?) to follow the rules (law and order and rules don't apply to him just others).. Anyways trump when asked if mail in voting was a safe secure way to vote, he would not. In fact he doubled down as well as stating he would like his supporters to "monitor" the polling places (aka intimidate, interfere with voters and poll workers). When asked for the record to condemn white supremacists (which the FBI has stated is a growing domestic threat as well as extremist group) he said instead "proud boys stand back, and stand by". When asked once the election is done and if his opponent won would he accept the results and have a peaceful transition, he would not!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 11:25:32 AM by partgypsy »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4439 on: September 30, 2020, 11:21:11 AM »


I gave up after the first 5 minutes.

I listened to every syllable (no TV).

Perhaps had I watched I would have turned it off.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4440 on: September 30, 2020, 11:26:23 AM »

Some takeaways from the debate last night, which went off the rails very quickly. If another debate is done they will need to have muting of the mics etc, because it is clear Trump is unwilling (possibly unable?) to follow the rules

Trump is so lacking in self-discipline that I think he is unable to comply with  time-limit  rules.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4441 on: September 30, 2020, 11:29:57 AM »

Some takeaways from the debate last night, which went off the rails very quickly. If another debate is done they will need to have muting of the mics etc, because it is clear Trump is unwilling (possibly unable?) to follow the rules

Trump is so lacking in self-discipline that I think he is unable to comply with  time-limit  rules.

I vote "unwilling" instead. Yesterday everyone was talking about Trump's tax evasion. Today it's just how awful the debate was, with a lot of "on both sides" being thrown around.

Intentionally doing something outrageous to distract from something actually truly scandalous has been Trump's mode of operation for the last 4 years.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4442 on: September 30, 2020, 11:44:56 AM »
There is going to be a lot more violence now that he explicitly gave a call-to-arms to white supremacist groups on national television.

The white supremacists are certainly happy about it.

What a shitshow that'll be when Jesus churches line up with white supremacists to intimidate or kill anyone who might not support their version of America.

We live in a very red area. Lots of MAGA around. Love the place, not so thrilled with the politics. We'd like to publicly support Biden and team but we dare not put out a yard sign or put a bumper sticker on the car lest we find our property damaged or ruined. It is a tiny but very vocal group who are the most dangerous. We'll still vote for Biden though.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4443 on: September 30, 2020, 12:14:43 PM »
There is going to be a lot more violence now that he explicitly gave a call-to-arms to white supremacist groups on national television.

The white supremacists are certainly happy about it.

What a shitshow that'll be when Jesus churches line up with white supremacists to intimidate or kill anyone who might not support their version of America.

We live in a very red area. Lots of MAGA around. Love the place, not so thrilled with the politics. We'd like to publicly support Biden and team but we dare not put out a yard sign or put a bumper sticker on the car lest we find our property damaged or ruined. It is a tiny but very vocal group who are the most dangerous. We'll still vote for Biden though.

Secret ballot for the win.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4444 on: September 30, 2020, 12:20:30 PM »
Sometimes voting for the least worst option is what we have to do.  If that is still a bad option then it is time to work on that before the next election.

This happens in 2 party and multiple party systems.  As a voter in a multiple-party system I've voted for my second choice to be sure my worst choice didn't get in, it happens.

I understand that. I voted for the least worst many times on the second round of an election. But in the first round I always vote for my first choice and I don't think my vote was wasted since both candidates usually form coalitions for the second round. It's far from a perfect system, but it's better at giving a third our forth party a voice than the EC.

We don't have second rounds, or ranked ballots.  So if person/party 1 gets 35% and  party 2 gets 25%, that leaves 40% for party 3 to grab that seat.  If you really don't want party 3, you vote for party 1 to improve their 35%.  And this is why so many Canadians are pulling for a better system than "first past the post".

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4445 on: September 30, 2020, 12:25:27 PM »

Some takeaways from the debate last night, which went off the rails very quickly. If another debate is done they will need to have muting of the mics etc, because it is clear Trump is unwilling (possibly unable?) to follow the rules

Trump is so lacking in self-discipline that I think he is unable to comply with  time-limit  rules.
I think it was calculated to prevent Biden from being able to speak and show himself uninterrupted. This has been a strategy from the start. It matters more that he suck the air out of the room than that the debate actually be a conversation. He won't lose his base by being a drunk-uncle character, but he did prevent Biden from being able to speak cogently at length and seem presidential. All he could really do is seem less crazy than Trump... The news today is not a discussion of Biden policy or really much at all about Biden. That is a win for Trump.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4446 on: September 30, 2020, 12:36:51 PM »
Glenstache, I totally agree with you this being calculated. I almost wonder if Chris Wallace wasn't part of it. He was the moderator and should have stopped the nonsense. Trump should have been kicked off stage.

How are they going to have two more debates if Trump does this tyrant child brat act twice more? I think they should ditch the debates and just do a one on one question answer thing individually. This is totally unfair to Biden to be talked over by a school yard bully.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4447 on: September 30, 2020, 01:00:46 PM »
He's displayed just that at the debate. Could he go 30 seconds without interrupting anyone? Next time I hope they mute the microphone when the other candidate is speaking! It seems that Trump's tactic was to constantly interrupt and break the rules of the debate, only to claim bias when he's called out.

Both parties have to agree to the rules of the debate beforehand or there wouldn't be a debate, and I bet you ever dollar I have that the Trump campaign would never agree to a debate where the moderator could mute the mic of the person who's not supposed to talk. This is how it is because this is how Trump wants it.

I disagree.  Trump has proven to be too much of a narcissit to refuse a nationally televised chance to attack his opponent, and the polls show that he desperately needs to move the needle,  and quickly. Trump's base has been clamoring for more debates on the hope that Biden would have some sort of senior moment that could "prove" their theory that he's senile.
IMO the network could have and should have cut off each debator's respective microphones whenever it was not their turn to speak.  But Wallace said publicly that he wanted to be "as invisible as possible" and let the debate play out on its own.  Which is what happened.

I don't think anyone was well served by last night's sideshow.  Had each candidate been allowed to (and forced to) speak uninterrupted for 2 minute stretches followed by a rebutal (which is what both sides actually agreed to in the debate rules) the public would have been better served.

Well it looks like we might find out. The Commission on Presidential Debates has said:
Quote
Last nightís debate made clear that additional structure should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues. The CPD will be carefully considering the changes that it will adopt and will announce those measures shortly.

And Biden's in:
Quote
I just hope thereís a way in which the debate commission can control the ability of us to answer the question without interruption. Iím not going to speculate what happens in the second or third debate. My hope is theyíre able to literally ó say the question is asked of Trump, hereís a microphone, he has two minutes to answer the question. No one else has the microphone. I donít know what the rules will be Ö but Iím looking forward to it.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4448 on: September 30, 2020, 01:01:03 PM »
If Joe Biden is asking for my vote, then he should have to go through these debates. Trump is obnoxious, but I'm hiring someone who will have to go toe-to-toe with Berlusconi and Erdogan.

Besides, it's still better than Sec. Clinton having to look at the women who conducted affairs with her husband in the front row. What she went through in her debates was positively hellacious.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 01:03:14 PM by talltexan »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #4449 on: September 30, 2020, 01:04:44 PM »



What a shitshow that'll be when Jesus churches line up with white supremacists to intimidate or kill anyone who might not support their version of America.





It wasn't all that long ago when wrongheaded churchgoers were the white supremacists.

Having said that I don't worry about Ku Kluxers, neo-Nazis, and their ilk forming an alliance  with certain churches bent on killing those opposed to their white supremacist ideology.

In the 1920s Ku Kluxers numbered in the millions.

Today they number  5000-6000.

That's progress.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 01:11:27 PM by John Galt incarnate! »