Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297453 times)

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3750 on: August 27, 2020, 07:27:22 AM »
I think one of the problems that is making it so hard to get good information about anything going on right now is the fact that all mainstream news reporting in the USA is owned and operated by six corporations, so people on all sides of the political spectrum don't know if they are getting the truth or corporate talking points.

I wonder, is this substantially different from decades past?  IIRC from my high school civics class, Hearst owned several dozen large newspapers which in turn were the owners of many local papers, the result being that a large swath of the population got its print news from just one company (Hearst Communications).  Prior to the 1990s and emergence of Fox and CNN there really were just three television news corps (ABC, NBC and CBS).

Or to rephrase the question: what's changed, besides the methods that we consume news?  Is this all the result of micro-targeting, or are there other factor(s) at work to make this different?  Or is it really just another version of the same thing?

When I was a child, the "media" was made up of hundreds or thousands of companies throughout the country so information was much less centralized, particularly with newspapers. There were no local TV stations where I lived (too rural), but local news broadcasts in more heavily populated areas were produced independently at most stations. 24 hour cable/satellite TV didn't exist. Newspapers proliferated. My tiny town had three newspapers, all owned by different owners.

Now there isn't local ownership of anything, just corporate-owned media. So people who don't have journalism ethics create their own tube channels or disseminate information on social media. And then we end up with a huge mess. I miss print journalism being the source of news because people had a break from the constant bombardment of information before the could even process previous information. There was enough diversity in the media to get different opinions on things and make decisions for yourself. Now people have a lot more difficulty getting accurate information.

Recently, I was reading about propaganda that Amazon sent out to news stations about their COVID response that was aired as is on TV stations throughout the country. It's like being back in the Gilded Age again.

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3751 on: August 27, 2020, 07:33:05 AM »
If Democrats want to win the 2020 election, then they need to do what they did in 2018 and address the economic concerns of lower-and-middle-class white people instead of just treating them with disdain. They also need to stop demonizing people for having religious beliefs ("clinging to guns and the Bible").

Democrats are doing nothing to stop violent protesting right now where people having been rioting for nearly three months straight and destroying billions of dollars worth of property. Protest is important but so is protecting people's businesses and homes. We've gotten to the point now where people are being shot at protests in Wisconsin and nearly nothing is being done about the problem.

This is allowing Trump to present himself as the law-and-order candidate and frightened white people are supporting him because they feel like they have no other option.

If I may substitute the "Democrats" with "liberals", then you may not be properly considering the "practical" and "moral" imperatives of these folks.

Caveat: I'm not formally a "Democrat", nor have any connection to the political party with that name. But I can speak for the "liberal leaning" people in the coasts. This part of the population happens to wield an outsized influence in the Democratic party right now.

These guys are generally not pretentious enough to think of themselves as the "real Americans" while relegating others to the status of "fake Americans". There were as many Yoga Instructors in US as Coal Miners back in 2010, and an average Yoga Instructor was generally no more wealthy than an average Coal Miner, and they are probably impacted more by the COVID crisis. However, by any objective measures, you'll not hear the Yoga Instructors make as much noise as the Coal Miners or posit themselves as the "real Americans".

A large part of these "fake Americans" have started talking schadenfreude after Trump. See, all the typical billionaire-friendly Republican policies generally create wealth for Democratic areas of the country - be it Silicone Valley or Wall Street etc. It benefits the billionaires and the top 10% who primarily reside in these blue states, while hastening the economic hollowing out of the red states. Still, these "fake Americans" support democratic policies because of moral conviction + the hope that the state government's re-distributive policies can even out the results for the less economically fortunate "fake Americans", like the Yoga Instructors I mentioned earlier.

tl;dr - I (and many other "liberal" "fake Americans") am not so sure that there is a whole lot of practical benefits for us arising out of "political wins" for one side or the other for the federal government.

OTOH, if we have to be carefully politically correct when talking about saving the lives of school children in Sandy Hook, or about saving women's rights to self-determination over their body (="clinging to guns and the Bible" in your words), then the moral cost is very high, at least in my view and that of many others I know.

So thanks for explaining the deal, but I am not sure too many "liberals" will take that, so no thanks!!

I just wanted to add a little more nuance to my pushback!! I think it can't be disputed that much of the real pushback from the white christian america against the democrats have been driven by racial and other status anxiety. It is important, however, to acknowledge the causes for that.

A hick from Kentucky is not any more racist or bigoted than a hoity toity from coastal California. Indeed, I personally often find such a person more honest. Human brain is wired by evolution to be tribal and "racist". Seeing their privileged position in society being eroded will result in a backlash anywhere. When you look up and see that your most valuable companies are led by dirty brown immigrants, that your alabaster white representatives get an a*se-whopping at some congressional hearing from an uppity "mexican" AOC - it will predictably lead to racial anxiety. Our beloved Kentucky hick is insensitive to the plight of others who objectively are in much more difficult position than him, but he is generally not the evil racist bigot driving the republican politics - the entire leadership of Alt-Right is generally comprised of "elites" and not working class whites.

That acknowledged, it's unproductive to couch the racial and status anxiety using the snowflake card. It is as if the mountain hick suddenly woke up yesterday and discovered that the "elites" have disdain for the lower class!! And that somehow the elites of one political persuasion (republican) have less disdain for him than the other (democrats). This kind of obfuscation of real issues keeps the honest conversations from happening and real solutions from emerging. Ain't the white working class supposed to be more honest and less politically correct than that?


partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3752 on: August 27, 2020, 07:44:20 AM »
I think one of the problems that is making it so hard to get good information about anything going on right now is the fact that all mainstream news reporting in the USA is owned and operated by six corporations, so people on all sides of the political spectrum don't know if they are getting the truth or corporate talking points.

I wonder, is this substantially different from decades past?  IIRC from my high school civics class, Hearst owned several dozen large newspapers which in turn were the owners of many local papers, the result being that a large swath of the population got its print news from just one company (Hearst Communications).  Prior to the 1990s and emergence of Fox and CNN there really were just three television news corps (ABC, NBC and CBS).

Or to rephrase the question: what's changed, besides the methods that we consume news?  Is this all the result of micro-targeting, or are there other factor(s) at work to make this different?  Or is it really just another version of the same thing?
Two things that are different. We no longer have the fairness doctrine. This is relatively old news but since then the proportion of opinion/editorial to news proportion, bandwidtch wise keeps increasing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_fairness_doctrine#:~:text=The%20fairness%20doctrine%20of%20the,honest%2C%20equitable%2C%20and%20balanced. And while there are mainstream media outlets, there is no equivalent to say people in Britain all sitting down at 6 pm to watch BBC1. Conservatives see all media other than Fox as biased, and watch Fox, while liberals it's the opposite. You can find charts where news outlets lie. Basically people not only are getting their opinions fed to them, we don't even agree are what the "facts" are anymore. For example 3 out of 4 Republicans say we are better off now than we were 4 years ago. Hmm. Our unemployment is over 10%, and the people who have returned to work, particularly low income service workers, are doing it at risk for their health because they don't have a choice. The US as a country has had no unified sensible response to COVID. States are fighting over PPE.  How many COVID deaths did Trump say we were going to have? We have "contained" it. It will be 15. It will "go away" in April. Then it was 50, 60 K. Then he said 100K. We are are over 180K dead and rising. His response has been deny, minimize, and now delay or slow testing. He just doesn't want his "numbers" to look bad (just like his golf scores). Businesses have been shuttered, many of them permanently. We have civil unrest with no clear way forward with the current leadership.  (But the stock market IS up).

2nd there are so many different "channels" now. Including talk radio and more importantly youtube. Youtube keeps showing you more of what you watched, and often it just becomes, propaganda channels where people become more and more self reinforcing and extreme, rigid in their thinking (on both sides). Third I think people in the US just don't get out as much either around other parts of the country or to other countries to interact with other people not like you and see how other people live.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 08:18:34 AM by partgypsy »

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3753 on: August 27, 2020, 07:45:34 AM »
I've tried sincerely to study these race issues, and been particularly open to people of color in my life who've offered to explain things to me, a white gen Xer.

However, I think a lot of white baby boomers cannot understand why people think they're racists. Particularly if they grew up in the South, they heard their parents casually drop racial slurs even in the 1980s. ("How could I be racist when I don't talk like that?") They were alive during the Civil Rights progress of the 1960s and have memories of a much more segregated and unjust society than we have today. In some cases, they were in their important early career years when they had to interact and compete with persons of color in the workplace in a way that was totally unfamiliar to the silent generation. And they came of age during the rise of the suburbs, separating them from urban neighborhoods physically while they see charicatures of those neighborhoods in media. These arguments today about things like institutional racism and systemic racism seem really subtle in comparison to them, when they truly believe they're a whole lot better than the people from a generation earlier.

This is not to excuse ignorance, but merely to offer an insight into the thinking of those who oppose society's transformation.

bloodaxe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3754 on: August 27, 2020, 07:54:48 AM »
I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

economista

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3755 on: August 27, 2020, 08:08:34 AM »
I’ve seen another aspect to the “racist white rural voter” argument that I understand, even though I think it is wrong. I had a very frustrating phone call with my Aunt a few weeks ago, but then afterward I started to think about it and I understand why she feels the way she does.

The area I grew up in (rural Ohio) has a lot of poverty and it is not very diverse at all. My school was K-12 in the same building with roughly 50 students per grade level and we had 2 people of color at the school. One was in my year and her father was a doctor, and the other was in the elementary school and I have no idea what his parents did. A lot of the experiences being shared by people of color across the country right now are things experienced by poor white people in the area I grew up in - this is because a lot of the trouble and problems are linked to poverty as much as to race, when you are in an area where race really isn’t a factor. The local police bully the poor white kids and yes, the parents of poor white kids have to have “the conversation” with their sons on a regular basis about how not to talk back to cops and not provoke them to get violent. Since my aunt has never been outside of the “bubble” of her area, her entire reality is that these kinds of problems are directly linked to POVERTY, not linked to RACE, and it is deeply troubling to her that people want to make things better for black kids but not her own white kids. For her reality, she doesn’t see that her kids have it so much better off, simply because they are white. With her experiences, her kids have a chance to make something of themselves and be successful just like a person of color. In that area, there are far more white families living in poverty than people of color, on a percentage basis as well as an absolute basis. She looks at doctors, lawyer, and congressmen and because she sees people of color among their ranks, she argues they have the ability to succeed just like anyone else.

However, her reality is Not the reality experienced across this country. If you extrapolate out to a country-wide level, the negative effects of poverty are felt more strongly among people of color because a larger percentage of people of color are in poverty. Then you add in the effects of diverse areas where abject racism is a real thing and you have an even bigger problem. I tried to explain to her about areas where voter suppression is real and polling stations in mostly black neighborhoods are closed so the residents have to stand in line for hours to vote, while you can go to a white neighborhood 20 minutes away and walk in and vote in 10 minutes. She has never heard about those issues and she couldn’t believe that anyone would be evil enough to do that. Yet she is one of the “rural white voters” who is being called racist and it makes her very upset to hear that because in her heart she isn’t racist at all, and if someone was hurt or asking for a handout she would give it to them regardless of race. She would be happy for one of her children to marry someone of color and she would hire someone completely regardless of color.

*Full disclosure, I am a registered democrat and I just happen to much more educated than my family members, plus I’ve seen a lot more of the world than they have. When you never leave the town you were born in (or in her case she lives in another small town 15 minutes away), you never learn that your experience is different from the experiences of others.

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3756 on: August 27, 2020, 08:11:11 AM »
More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

bloodaxe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3757 on: August 27, 2020, 08:17:42 AM »
More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

Yea I've seen that video. I'm interested to see how the courts will handle this going forward.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3758 on: August 27, 2020, 08:24:02 AM »
Question. Why is a 17 year old from a different city, going into an area of protests with a semi automatic weapon? He says he is surrounded and shoots a person in the head. More people try to take the weapon from him (to prevent a mass shooter incident) and also get shot. I'm sorry I don't see self defense here. Not when you have shot multiple people, who would not have been shot if you weren't there.

to remind everyone: this 17 year old was also breaking the law. He was ALSO out after a 8 pm curfew, and was carrying a semi automatic weapon that is illegal in that state. He had no business being there. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 10:02:52 AM by partgypsy »

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3759 on: August 27, 2020, 08:29:52 AM »
More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

Would 2 people be dead, 1 injured and the shooter facing murder charges had the shooter followed the law? 

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3760 on: August 27, 2020, 08:55:18 AM »
Question. Why is a 17 year old from a different city, going into an area of protests with a semi automatic weapon? He says he is surrounded and shoots a person in the head. More people try to take the weapon from him (to prevent a mass shooter incident) and also get shot. I'm sorry I don't see self defense here. Not when you have shot multiple people, who would not have been shot if you weren't there.

I believe he works in the area. He considers it to be... Not his "home town" exactly but his "stomping grounds." He was there to support BLM but also prevent people from looting. He was trying to walk a tight rope and slipped.

More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

Would 2 people be dead, 1 injured and the shooter facing murder charges had the shooter followed the law? 

I will agree if you agree people probably shouldn't have been looting and rioting in the first place.


MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3761 on: August 27, 2020, 09:01:14 AM »
Question. Why is a 17 year old from a different city, going into an area of protests with a semi automatic weapon? He says he is surrounded and shoots a person in the head. More people try to take the weapon from him (to prevent a mass shooter incident) and also get shot. I'm sorry I don't see self defense here. Not when you have shot multiple people, who would not have been shot if you weren't there.

I believe he works in the area. He considers it to be... Not his "home town" exactly but his "stomping grounds." He was there to support BLM but also prevent people from looting. He was trying to walk a tight rope and slipped.

More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

Would 2 people be dead, 1 injured and the shooter facing murder charges had the shooter followed the law? 

I will agree if you agree people probably shouldn't have been looting and rioting in the first place.
Simple yes or no will suffice.

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3762 on: August 27, 2020, 09:02:58 AM »
I’ve seen another aspect to the “racist white rural voter” argument that I understand, even though I think it is wrong. I had a very frustrating phone call with my Aunt a few weeks ago, but then afterward I started to think about it and I understand why she feels the way she does.

The area I grew up in (rural Ohio) has a lot of poverty and it is not very diverse at all. My school was K-12 in the same building with roughly 50 students per grade level and we had 2 people of color at the school. One was in my year and her father was a doctor, and the other was in the elementary school and I have no idea what his parents did. A lot of the experiences being shared by people of color across the country right now are things experienced by poor white people in the area I grew up in - this is because a lot of the trouble and problems are linked to poverty as much as to race, when you are in an area where race really isn’t a factor. The local police bully the poor white kids and yes, the parents of poor white kids have to have “the conversation” with their sons on a regular basis about how not to talk back to cops and not provoke them to get violent. Since my aunt has never been outside of the “bubble” of her area, her entire reality is that these kinds of problems are directly linked to POVERTY, not linked to RACE, and it is deeply troubling to her that people want to make things better for black kids but not her own white kids. For her reality, she doesn’t see that her kids have it so much better off, simply because they are white. With her experiences, her kids have a chance to make something of themselves and be successful just like a person of color. In that area, there are far more white families living in poverty than people of color, on a percentage basis as well as an absolute basis. She looks at doctors, lawyer, and congressmen and because she sees people of color among their ranks, she argues they have the ability to succeed just like anyone else.

However, her reality is Not the reality experienced across this country. If you extrapolate out to a country-wide level, the negative effects of poverty are felt more strongly among people of color because a larger percentage of people of color are in poverty. Then you add in the effects of diverse areas where abject racism is a real thing and you have an even bigger problem. I tried to explain to her about areas where voter suppression is real and polling stations in mostly black neighborhoods are closed so the residents have to stand in line for hours to vote, while you can go to a white neighborhood 20 minutes away and walk in and vote in 10 minutes. She has never heard about those issues and she couldn’t believe that anyone would be evil enough to do that. Yet she is one of the “rural white voters” who is being called racist and it makes her very upset to hear that because in her heart she isn’t racist at all, and if someone was hurt or asking for a handout she would give it to them regardless of race. She would be happy for one of her children to marry someone of color and she would hire someone completely regardless of color.

*Full disclosure, I am a registered democrat and I just happen to much more educated than my family members, plus I’ve seen a lot more of the world than they have. When you never leave the town you were born in (or in her case she lives in another small town 15 minutes away), you never learn that your experience is different from the experiences of others.

Thank you for explaining this.
 
I have never spent time in the rural America. So this is a new perspective to me.


gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3763 on: August 27, 2020, 09:19:14 AM »
Then the Governor should have deployed the National Guard. It's crazy to me that several of these Governors haven't when protests have turned into riots. Seems to me like they hate Trump so much they're willing to let their cities burn.

Two things can be true at once: This kid had no business being there. Every shot he took was in self defense.

Current theory is they wanted a "photo-op." For Trump to unilaterally send in the National Guard, then Democrats would have images of the National Guard marching in cities, army vehicles prowling the streets and a 10 second clip of a guardsman smashing a person in the face. Then they could all claim "this is Trump's America!"

Problem is... It isn't working.

Don Lemon points out that this is showing up in polling.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/513742-cnns-lemon-warns-of-democratic-blind-spot-on-riots-it-shows-up-in-the-polling

Oregon Governor Kate Brown is asking for the "Violence and Vandalism to end". Really odd statement since the violence was because of the feds and they supposedly left a month ago. Can't figure out what she is talking about.
https://mobile.twitter.com/OregonGovBrown/status/1298355206753681408?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Minneapolis Mayor has requested the National Guard be brought in to quell the violence.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/26/minneapolis-protests-national-guard-curfew-police-misinformation/5641474002/

Democrats gave themselves a black eye and are trying to get things under control again. Which, again, are odd requests because everyone is saying "Peaceful Protests." I can't fathom why Democrats would sic the National Guard on peaceful protestors.

Question. Why is a 17 year old from a different city, going into an area of protests with a semi automatic weapon? He says he is surrounded and shoots a person in the head. More people try to take the weapon from him (to prevent a mass shooter incident) and also get shot. I'm sorry I don't see self defense here. Not when you have shot multiple people, who would not have been shot if you weren't there.

I believe he works in the area. He considers it to be... Not his "home town" exactly but his "stomping grounds." He was there to support BLM but also prevent people from looting. He was trying to walk a tight rope and slipped.

More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

Would 2 people be dead, 1 injured and the shooter facing murder charges had the shooter followed the law? 

I will agree if you agree people probably shouldn't have been looting and rioting in the first place.
Simple yes or no will suffice.

And I'm trying to strike a deal with you sir. I will say "No, those people would still be alive" if you say "People should not have been looting."

It is an argument on the internet. You have nothing to lose from simply admitting there was "minor looting." Would that make you feel better? Only a single instance of looting in the entirety of the protests.

economista

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3764 on: August 27, 2020, 09:19:42 AM »

Thank you for explaining this.
 
I have never spent time in the rural America. So this is a new perspective to me.

You're welcome. I had to sit back and take the time to think through this to realize that I used to feel the same way as her, and I tried to think through when my opinion changed. I remember being strongly against affirmative action when I was in high school. I'm the first person in my family to go to college, and my mom didn't even graduate from high school. I worked insane hours while in high school as well as getting almost straight A's and when I applied to college I thought affirmative action programs were stupid. My best friend was a person of color and she did the least amount of work to get by, but my perspective was that she would automatically get into college and get more scholarship money than me, since she was a person of color. It didn't matter that her father was a doctor and could afford to pay for her education. I thought programs like affirmative action should be entirely based upon socio-economic status and not race. **I totally understand now that what I perceived as reality was NOT reality, but at the time it's all I knew and all I had been told all of my life.

Interestingly, she got into the same school as me and did receive more scholarship money, but dropped out after one semester of almost all F's - it turns out doing the least amount of work to get by plus partying all the time doesn't work all that well in college. I continued on in college, then grad school, and I'm an economist who studies poverty and social mobility :D My experiences definitely pushed me toward this field of study and my education and research have formed my opinions today.

wenchsenior

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3765 on: August 27, 2020, 09:20:30 AM »
I’ve seen another aspect to the “racist white rural voter” argument that I understand, even though I think it is wrong. I had a very frustrating phone call with my Aunt a few weeks ago, but then afterward I started to think about it and I understand why she feels the way she does.

The area I grew up in (rural Ohio) has a lot of poverty and it is not very diverse at all. My school was K-12 in the same building with roughly 50 students per grade level and we had 2 people of color at the school. One was in my year and her father was a doctor, and the other was in the elementary school and I have no idea what his parents did. A lot of the experiences being shared by people of color across the country right now are things experienced by poor white people in the area I grew up in - this is because a lot of the trouble and problems are linked to poverty as much as to race, when you are in an area where race really isn’t a factor. The local police bully the poor white kids and yes, the parents of poor white kids have to have “the conversation” with their sons on a regular basis about how not to talk back to cops and not provoke them to get violent. Since my aunt has never been outside of the “bubble” of her area, her entire reality is that these kinds of problems are directly linked to POVERTY, not linked to RACE, and it is deeply troubling to her that people want to make things better for black kids but not her own white kids. For her reality, she doesn’t see that her kids have it so much better off, simply because they are white. With her experiences, her kids have a chance to make something of themselves and be successful just like a person of color. In that area, there are far more white families living in poverty than people of color, on a percentage basis as well as an absolute basis. She looks at doctors, lawyer, and congressmen and because she sees people of color among their ranks, she argues they have the ability to succeed just like anyone else.

However, her reality is Not the reality experienced across this country. If you extrapolate out to a country-wide level, the negative effects of poverty are felt more strongly among people of color because a larger percentage of people of color are in poverty. Then you add in the effects of diverse areas where abject racism is a real thing and you have an even bigger problem. I tried to explain to her about areas where voter suppression is real and polling stations in mostly black neighborhoods are closed so the residents have to stand in line for hours to vote, while you can go to a white neighborhood 20 minutes away and walk in and vote in 10 minutes. She has never heard about those issues and she couldn’t believe that anyone would be evil enough to do that. Yet she is one of the “rural white voters” who is being called racist and it makes her very upset to hear that because in her heart she isn’t racist at all, and if someone was hurt or asking for a handout she would give it to them regardless of race. She would be happy for one of her children to marry someone of color and she would hire someone completely regardless of color.

*Full disclosure, I am a registered democrat and I just happen to much more educated than my family members, plus I’ve seen a lot more of the world than they have. When you never leave the town you were born in (or in her case she lives in another small town 15 minutes away), you never learn that your experience is different from the experiences of others.

Thank you for explaining this.
 
I have never spent time in the rural America. So this is a new perspective to me.

Great explanation above.  I grew up in a similar area and see similar patterns.   I think people in Europe or people born and living in big U.S. cities really have trouble grasping the lived experience of a huge portion of the U.S. citizens, who simply never travel more than 50 miles from their 95% white majority, poor, rural or small town area (except on an occasional vacation).  There definitely is a lot of racism present, but that isn't the complete story of these people supporting Trump or the GOP in general.

 

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3766 on: August 27, 2020, 10:04:11 AM »
Question. Why is a 17 year old from a different city, going into an area of protests with a semi automatic weapon? He says he is surrounded and shoots a person in the head. More people try to take the weapon from him (to prevent a mass shooter incident) and also get shot. I'm sorry I don't see self defense here. Not when you have shot multiple people, who would not have been shot if you weren't there.

I believe he works in the area. He considers it to be... Not his "home town" exactly but his "stomping grounds." He was there to support BLM but also prevent people from looting. He was trying to walk a tight rope and slipped.


An angle I am curious about with the Kenosha shooter is the difference in laws between IL and WI. At 17, the shooter is not old enough to own a long gun (18). In WI, the age to own a long gun is 12. Unless he bought in it WI and kept it in a locker there (pretty unlikely), then there are some gun law issues when he tries to go home to Illinois.

As to him being there to support BLM: while that is certainly possible, given his age and other patterns of affiliations (blue lives matter supporter, for example), this seems unlikely and convenient cover story chaff that is beneficial given the current situation. Unless I see compelling evidence of his support for BLM, I remain skeptical.

On the topic of incomplete information: does anyone have any type of quantitative reporting or reliable reporting on the prevalence of true anarchists/vandals (not affiliated with BLM, importantly), or Boogaloos, or other white supremacist groups who are co-opting the situation to create violence, flames and the like in either because they just like to fuck shit up (anarchists/vandals) or want to dilute and derail the message and movement of the protests (the assholes)?

I have seen plenty of reporting indicating that these groups are active, but not if they are a minor component or having a substantive effect. That information would be incredibly difficult to acquire and gauge given the circumstances, but important.

turketron

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3767 on: August 27, 2020, 10:17:34 AM »
An angle I am curious about with the Kenosha shooter is the difference in laws between IL and WI. At 17, the shooter is not old enough to own a long gun (18). In WI, the age to own a long gun is 12. Unless he bought in it WI and kept it in a locker there (pretty unlikely), then there are some gun law issues when he tries to go home to Illinois.

While ownership is legal at 12, apparently Open Carry is not for a minor here in WI: https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/suspected-kenosha-shooter-may-have-been-illegally-carrying-gun

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3768 on: August 27, 2020, 10:25:25 AM »
An angle I am curious about with the Kenosha shooter is the difference in laws between IL and WI. At 17, the shooter is not old enough to own a long gun (18). In WI, the age to own a long gun is 12. Unless he bought in it WI and kept it in a locker there (pretty unlikely), then there are some gun law issues when he tries to go home to Illinois.

While ownership is legal at 12, apparently Open Carry is not for a minor here in WI: https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/suspected-kenosha-shooter-may-have-been-illegally-carrying-gun
Ownership under 18 has exemptions so anyone under 18 has to have a specific purpose that would qualify under those exemptions. A 17 year old claiming to protect personal property from looters is not one of those exemptions. 

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3769 on: August 27, 2020, 10:36:04 AM »
I do really find it amazing how right-leaning "law and order" types are so quick to find loopholes and possible areas of dispute for white lawbreakers, whereas any black person killed by a cop who ever did anything wrong prior to the murder was "no angel" and "probably OD'ed" etc.

By the way, it appears that Rittenhouse may have a juvenile criminal record. I have found case numbers going back to 2016, including a charge of disobeying officers in 2018. I will not post the actual information because I cannot yet confirm it.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3770 on: August 27, 2020, 10:40:36 AM »
Then the Governor should have deployed the National Guard. It's crazy to me that several of these Governors haven't when protests have turned into riots. Seems to me like they hate Trump so much they're willing to let their cities burn.

Two things can be true at once: This kid had no business being there. Every shot he took was in self defense.

Current theory is they wanted a "photo-op." For Trump to unilaterally send in the National Guard, then Democrats would have images of the National Guard marching in cities, army vehicles prowling the streets and a 10 second clip of a guardsman smashing a person in the face. Then they could all claim "this is Trump's America!"

Problem is... It isn't working.

Don Lemon points out that this is showing up in polling.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/513742-cnns-lemon-warns-of-democratic-blind-spot-on-riots-it-shows-up-in-the-polling

Oregon Governor Kate Brown is asking for the "Violence and Vandalism to end". Really odd statement since the violence was because of the feds and they supposedly left a month ago. Can't figure out what she is talking about.
https://mobile.twitter.com/OregonGovBrown/status/1298355206753681408?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Minneapolis Mayor has requested the National Guard be brought in to quell the violence.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/26/minneapolis-protests-national-guard-curfew-police-misinformation/5641474002/

Democrats gave themselves a black eye and are trying to get things under control again. Which, again, are odd requests because everyone is saying "Peaceful Protests." I can't fathom why Democrats would sic the National Guard on peaceful protestors.

Question. Why is a 17 year old from a different city, going into an area of protests with a semi automatic weapon? He says he is surrounded and shoots a person in the head. More people try to take the weapon from him (to prevent a mass shooter incident) and also get shot. I'm sorry I don't see self defense here. Not when you have shot multiple people, who would not have been shot if you weren't there.

I believe he works in the area. He considers it to be... Not his "home town" exactly but his "stomping grounds." He was there to support BLM but also prevent people from looting. He was trying to walk a tight rope and slipped.

More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

Would 2 people be dead, 1 injured and the shooter facing murder charges had the shooter followed the law? 

I will agree if you agree people probably shouldn't have been looting and rioting in the first place.
Simple yes or no will suffice.

And I'm trying to strike a deal with you sir. I will say "No, those people would still be alive" if you say "People should not have been looting."

It is an argument on the internet. You have nothing to lose from simply admitting there was "minor looting." Would that make you feel better? Only a single instance of looting in the entirety of the protests.

I agree there was looting. But last time I looked, looting does not carry a death sentence or require deadly force to stop it. And I don't see why anyone, including or especially law and order folks being OK with people carrying guns into crowds after curfew and taking the law into their own hands up to and including shooting people. If I think some police even with their training are not being responsible with using force, I sure as hell don't think some random civilian who is armed is going to do better about judging situations and restraint. On the contary it's a recipe for disaster.

I guess if you are OK with this kid doing this, then I guess you are OK with black men carrying weapons up to and including AKs into neighborhoods where they are routinely targeted and harrassed. After all, they are only carrying their gun for their own protection. If you do have a problem with it, then ask yourself why, in one case it's OK and the other case it is not.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 11:01:02 AM by partgypsy »

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3771 on: August 27, 2020, 10:46:41 AM »
Then the Governor should have deployed the National Guard. It's crazy to me that several of these Governors haven't when protests have turned into riots. Seems to me like they hate Trump so much they're willing to let their cities burn.

Two things can be true at once: This kid had no business being there. Every shot he took was in self defense.

Current theory is they wanted a "photo-op." For Trump to unilaterally send in the National Guard, then Democrats would have images of the National Guard marching in cities, army vehicles prowling the streets and a 10 second clip of a guardsman smashing a person in the face. Then they could all claim "this is Trump's America!"

Problem is... It isn't working.

Don Lemon points out that this is showing up in polling.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/513742-cnns-lemon-warns-of-democratic-blind-spot-on-riots-it-shows-up-in-the-polling

Oregon Governor Kate Brown is asking for the "Violence and Vandalism to end". Really odd statement since the violence was because of the feds and they supposedly left a month ago. Can't figure out what she is talking about.
https://mobile.twitter.com/OregonGovBrown/status/1298355206753681408?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Minneapolis Mayor has requested the National Guard be brought in to quell the violence.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/26/minneapolis-protests-national-guard-curfew-police-misinformation/5641474002/

Democrats gave themselves a black eye and are trying to get things under control again. Which, again, are odd requests because everyone is saying "Peaceful Protests." I can't fathom why Democrats would sic the National Guard on peaceful protestors.

Question. Why is a 17 year old from a different city, going into an area of protests with a semi automatic weapon? He says he is surrounded and shoots a person in the head. More people try to take the weapon from him (to prevent a mass shooter incident) and also get shot. I'm sorry I don't see self defense here. Not when you have shot multiple people, who would not have been shot if you weren't there.

I believe he works in the area. He considers it to be... Not his "home town" exactly but his "stomping grounds." He was there to support BLM but also prevent people from looting. He was trying to walk a tight rope and slipped.

More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

1) He was illegally open carrying
2) He was out past curfew.

So, this thug was already out committing crimes before any of this happened. This is not community policing, this is criminal activity. Followed by murder. If he had been at home in Illinois instead of out committing crimes, none of this would have happened.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2020/08/26/wisconsin-open-carry-law-kyle-rittenhouse-legally-have-gun-kenosha-protest-shooting-17-year-old/3444231001/

The open carry issue can be debated it seems.

The curfew thing works for everyone involved.

As long as he shuts up and gets a good lawyer those murder charges would be self defense. He attempted to retreat only for the threat to follow him. A rational person surrounded by a mob that started attacking them would believe their life was at risk.

I think everyone is jumping the gun on the Kenosha deaths.

There's nothing known about what happened before the videos.

There is video of the first shooting victim aggressively lunging at the armed people while asking them "Are you gonna shoot me?!"

Whether double dog daring an armed person in a tense situation is a wise decision or not will be a question for the ages.

Would 2 people be dead, 1 injured and the shooter facing murder charges had the shooter followed the law? 

I will agree if you agree people probably shouldn't have been looting and rioting in the first place.
Simple yes or no will suffice.

And I'm trying to strike a deal with you sir. I will say "No, those people would still be alive" if you say "People should not have been looting."

It is an argument on the internet. You have nothing to lose from simply admitting there was "minor looting." Would that make you feel better? Only a single instance of looting in the entirety of the protests.

I agree there was looting. But last time I looked, looting does not carry a death sentence or require deadly force to stop it. And I don't see why anyone, including or especially law and order folks being OK with people carrying guns into crowds after curfew and taking the law into their own hands up to and including shooting people. If I think some police even with their training are not being responsible with using force, I sure as hell don't think some random civilian who is armed is going to do better about judging situations and restraint. On the contary it's a recipe for disaster.

I guess if you are OK with this kid doing this, then I guess you are OK with black men carrying weapons up to and including AKs into neighborhoods where they are routinely targeted and harrassed. After all, they are only carrying their gun for their own safety.
Kenosha sheriff on civilians functioning as law enforcement: https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/kenosha-sheriff-says-vigilante-group-asked-him-to-deputize-them/2329038/
Quote
Armed citizens have been taking to the streets of Kenosha during unrest in the city following the police shooting of Jacob Blake and some have even asked the county sheriff to deputize them, Kenosha County Sheriff David Beth said.

Beth, speaking during a press conference Wednesday, said he declined to do so, noting that if he did, those members would become "a liability to me and the county and the state of Wisconsin."

"There's no way. There's no way I would deputize people," he said.

Beth, who said his initial response was "oh hell no," added that such groups don't actually help police.

"Part of the problem with this group is they create confrontation," he said. "People walking around with guns - if I walk in my uniform with a gun all of you probably wouldn't be too intimated by it because you're used to officers having guns, but if I put out my wife with an AR-15 or my brother with a shotgun or whatever it would be walking through the streets you guys would probably wonder what the heck was going on."

Other Kenosha officials agreed.

"I don't need more guns on the street in the community," Kenosha Mayor John Antaramian said.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3772 on: August 27, 2020, 10:51:20 AM »
Plus, allowing someone to speak who thinks women shouldn’t have the right to vote. It is their Christian duty to allow their husbands to vote instead.  https://www.newsweek.com/tweet-resurfaces-rnc-speaker-abby-johnson-saying-one-vote-per-household-1527630
Nonono, you got that wrong!

One vote per household! It means white singles and couples get one vote, and muslim and black families who are so poor (or simply want) that they have to live grandparents, parents, children together get one vote for 10 people!

Quote
Democrats are doing nothing to stop violent protesting right now where people having been rioting for nearly three months straight and destroying billions of dollars worth of property.
With violent protestors, do you mean the couple at the Republican convention that threatened peacefully marching blacks with guns because the march went in front of the couple's house?

And how did you come to "billions"? Maybe I just don't get the pictures here in Germany, but I haven't seen whole cities burning down in the US.

Quote
This is allowing Trump to present himself as the law-and-order candidate and frightened white people are supporting him because they feel like they have no other option.
You are aware that all the BLM protestors are only there on the street because they not only feel, but are objectivly with every reason to believe they have no other option if Trump wins?

Quote
The circumstances are creating a situation where people think they have to take matters into their own hands because the government isn't doing anything to stop the mayhem and then you end up with psychos murdering people in Kenosha on live video.
No, because people like the "confused single attacker" (the favorite German term for a terrorist from your side) exist, that is the reason why you have people going through streets destroying car dealers.
Or with similar meaning: If White America would not treat Blacks as shit, they would not act like shit.

Quote
Then the Governor should have deployed the National Guard. It's crazy to me that several of these Governors haven't when protests have turned into riots.
Actually the National Guard - military! - should not be deployed at all, even at riots.

Quote
Sometimes I wonder if they are intentionally stirring up division, rather than just displaying their own bias.
Neither. They are stirring up division unintentionally by showing their watchers bias.
That is how you make eyeballs, eyeballs mean money, so you do what makes money.

Quote
He was there to support BLM but also prevent people from looting.
In neither case should he be carrying a gun.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3773 on: August 27, 2020, 11:00:51 AM »
I guess if you are OK with this kid doing this, then I guess you are OK with black men carrying weapons up to and including AKs into neighborhoods where they are routinely targeted and harrassed. After all, they are only carrying their gun for their own safety. If you do have a problem with it, then ask yourself why, in one case it's OK a white guy to do it (go into other people's neighborhoods unasked with an AK and is somehow justified when he shoots people) and for other people it's not.

This is actually why open carry became illegal in California in the 60s. The Black Panthers started carrying weapons to protect themselves against the police. Shortly after, Reagan signed a bill making it illegal.

Compare that with the reaction to the MI protestors, who were white. No new laws there. They're just exercising their 2A rights.

Even more interesting, the NRA supported the California anti-open carry law.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3774 on: August 27, 2020, 11:05:05 AM »
One thing I've had a very hard time understanding is why Police Officers use lethal or extreme force/restraint on citizens when there is not an imminent risk of bodily harm.  I can understand shootings when the suspect is holding a weapon in a threating manner, but in too many of these incidents the person is unarmed. I don't understand how the threat of bodily harm or even death is justified when the suspected offense is a misdomeanor - particularly when the person is of no threat to anyone nearby.

I also do not understand why officers will risk people's lives (including thier own and bystanders) to run down a suspect when they have already identified them and when they aren't a violent criminal (e.g. a murderer or rapist).  As an example, an officer who gives chase to a vehicle during a traffic stop after getting their plate# and license/ID, leading to a potentially deadly 'PIT' manuevuer.  Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to let the suspect go and issue a bench-warrant, rather than endangering the lives of the officer, the suspect, and potentially everyone else in the vicinity?

It seems to me that too often we resort to extreme and overwhelming force, and then are surprised when that tactic results in unnecessary and unintended deaths, including for the officers involved.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3775 on: August 27, 2020, 11:23:46 AM »
One thing I've had a very hard time understanding is why Police Officers use lethal or extreme force/restraint on citizens when there is not an imminent risk of bodily harm.  I can understand shootings when the suspect is holding a weapon in a threating manner, but in too many of these incidents the person is unarmed. I don't understand how the threat of bodily harm or even death is justified when the suspected offense is a misdomeanor - particularly when the person is of no threat to anyone nearby.

I also do not understand why officers will risk people's lives (including thier own and bystanders) to run down a suspect when they have already identified them and when they aren't a violent criminal (e.g. a murderer or rapist).  As an example, an officer who gives chase to a vehicle during a traffic stop after getting their plate# and license/ID, leading to a potentially deadly 'PIT' manuevuer.  Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to let the suspect go and issue a bench-warrant, rather than endangering the lives of the officer, the suspect, and potentially everyone else in the vicinity?

It seems to me that too often we resort to extreme and overwhelming force, and then are surprised when that tactic results in unnecessary and unintended deaths, including for the officers involved.

"Some of those that wear forces are the same that burn crosses."

+ power trips, stress, lack of wisdom and training.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3776 on: August 27, 2020, 11:31:08 AM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3777 on: August 27, 2020, 11:34:31 AM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

cliffhanger

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3778 on: August 27, 2020, 11:59:35 AM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

Maybe conservatives do care about the unnecessary loss of life, but very few engage with this forum because of the constant stream of straw-man arguments.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3779 on: August 27, 2020, 12:09:40 PM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

Maybe conservatives do care about the unnecessary loss of life, but very few engage with this forum because of the constant stream of straw-man arguments.

"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
-Tucker Carlson Tonight, the most popular program in all cable news.

Yep, sure seems that way.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3780 on: August 27, 2020, 12:09:51 PM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

Maybe conservatives do care about the unnecessary loss of life, but very few engage with this forum because of the constant stream of straw-man arguments.

I am repeating attitudes actual people have expressed in real life. Every conservative in my life who has bothered to comment on either the police shooting or the vigilante shooting has justified it and if I say anything they have told me, yet again, that any outrage I feel is disrespectful and a result of media manipulation.

bloodaxe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3781 on: August 27, 2020, 12:22:20 PM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

Maybe conservatives do care about the unnecessary loss of life, but very few engage with this forum because of the constant stream of straw-man arguments.

"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
-Tucker Carlson Tonight, the most popular program in all cable news.

Yep, sure seems that way.

<someone complains about constant strawman arguments toward conservatives>
<reply with a strawman argument>

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3782 on: August 27, 2020, 12:27:06 PM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

Maybe conservatives do care about the unnecessary loss of life, but very few engage with this forum because of the constant stream of straw-man arguments.
Meh, some Conservatives do. But you won't find empathy from me for those supporting an administration who stokes the flames of racism, locks kids in cages, and continues to downplay 180K+ deaths. AND continues to make decisions solely for the  benefit their re-election campaign at the expense of people's lives.

cliffhanger

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3783 on: August 27, 2020, 12:37:21 PM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

Maybe conservatives do care about the unnecessary loss of life, but very few engage with this forum because of the constant stream of straw-man arguments.

"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
-Tucker Carlson Tonight, the most popular program in all cable news.

Yep, sure seems that way.

I don't watch Tucker, so I searched for this clip. Not one sentence from a 7+ min segment, but the whole thing. I'm sure you'll appreciate more context behind his reasoning, even if you disagree. https://video.foxnews.com/v/6184852089001#sp=show-clips

Your quote starts about 2:57 timestamp. More context for it starts about 2:25. I'm just dumb hick right winger, but I don't see anything that suggests Tucker is trivializing the loss of life. Care to inform me what is so bad about what he said?

I personally think this whole situation is very tragic. I'll tend to agree with what Tucker said. It's first and foremost the responsibilities of the authorities to uphold law and order. When they fail to do that, you're going to see more businesses burning down, more vigilantes, more deaths. It needs to end.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3784 on: August 27, 2020, 12:39:19 PM »
I think it's disturbing that there are some people celebrating that three people were shot in Kenosha with two killed and one wounded with an arm amputation. This is a tragedy. You can make the argument that the government should have intervened before it escalated to this level, but nobody should be treating the shooter like he's some kind of hero.

Bah, he just shot a bunch of libtards, they are just animals, not really people at all. So stupid and following the media like sheep, who cares? Amirite?

Maybe conservatives do care about the unnecessary loss of life, but very few engage with this forum because of the constant stream of straw-man arguments.

"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
-Tucker Carlson Tonight, the most popular program in all cable news.

Yep, sure seems that way.

I don't watch Tucker, so I searched for this clip. Not one sentence from a 7+ min segment, but the whole thing. I'm sure you'll appreciate more context behind his reasoning, even if you disagree. https://video.foxnews.com/v/6184852089001#sp=show-clips

Your quote starts about 2:57 timestamp. More context for it starts about 2:25. I'm just dumb hick right winger, but I don't see anything that suggests Tucker is trivializing the loss of life. Care to inform me what is so bad about what he said?

I personally think this whole situation is very tragic. I'll tend to agree with what Tucker said. It's first and foremost the responsibilities of the authorities to uphold law and order. When they fail to do that, you're going to see more businesses burning down, more vigilantes, more deaths. It needs to end.

So you agree that there should be reforms so that police are less violent and more equitably upholding the law?

cliffhanger

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3785 on: August 27, 2020, 12:49:39 PM »
So you agree that there should be reforms so that police are less violent and more equitably upholding the law?

Yes of course. Beneficial reforms can always be made. We probably have a lot of disagreement on the specifics depending on how you're about to frame this question though.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3786 on: August 27, 2020, 12:59:17 PM »
So you agree that there should be reforms so that police are less violent and more equitably upholding the law?

Yes of course. Beneficial reforms can always be made. We probably have a lot of disagreement on the specifics depending on how you're about to frame this question though.

That literally isn't even part of the conversation with mainstream Republicans and Blue Lives Matter. As a matter of fact, they cancelled reforms that were being put into place without offering any alternatives.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3787 on: August 27, 2020, 01:03:49 PM »
So you agree that there should be reforms so that police are less violent and more equitably upholding the law?

Yes of course. Beneficial reforms can always be made. We probably have a lot of disagreement on the specifics depending on how you're about to frame this question though.

That literally isn't even part of the conversation with mainstream Republicans and Blue Lives Matter. As a matter of fact, they cancelled reforms that were being put into place without offering any alternatives.
+1
Tucker didn't say anything inherently bad. He just keeps repeating the same mantra. Not enough police and people aren't policing their cities. Well how about we reform our cities by addressing systematic racism, invest in the communities, and retrain our police force? Then maybe we won't even have to worry about having enough police or sending in the National Guard.

ixtap is right tough. That's not a straw-man. Heck you can look up statistics and find that the bulk of Conservatives don't even see racism as an issue. Why would the current administration deal with something it doesn't even perceive as an issue? Cities are in chaos and the man in charge thinks the only solution is more armed people. 

cliffhanger

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3788 on: August 27, 2020, 01:07:51 PM »
So you agree that there should be reforms so that police are less violent and more equitably upholding the law?

Yes of course. Beneficial reforms can always be made. We probably have a lot of disagreement on the specifics depending on how you're about to frame this question though.

That literally isn't even part of the conversation with mainstream Republicans and Blue Lives Matter. As a matter of fact, they cancelled reforms that were being put into place without offering any alternatives.

Sen. Tim Scott's floor speech after his police reform bill got voted down
Sen. Tim Scott candid conversation with Ted Cruz about the bill and racism in America

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3789 on: August 27, 2020, 01:11:38 PM »
More Dem unrest, apparantly. Oh wait.....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-teen-charged-kenosha-034206711.html

Don't worry, Tucker will certainly condemn this murderer. Here is what he said in reference to the killing "decided to maintain order when no one else would.” What in the actual fuck?

Must be that law and order Trump is apparently known for. Or "war is peace?" A 17 year old Trump supporting white kid carrying an assault rifle and opening fire might as well be the theme for the Trump party and all if it's apologist.

Would it change things if he was attempting to stop a looter? Everyone here claims the protests are peaceful except for "a few instigators." A few problematic people.

The timeline seems to be:
He confronted the looter.
They chased after him.
He shot one in the head.
Called the police to turn himself in.
More people chased after him.
He trips.
Second guy attempts to kick him. He gets shot.
Third guy attacks with a skateboard and gets shot.
The fourth guy pretends to surrender only to go for a gun. Gets his elbow blown apart for his asshattery. He is still gripping the gun.

I do not have the video of the shooter attempting to turn himself in to the police.

Sources.
https://mega.nz/file/wwJi1ABA#7wul-mk-1yhEI0jrdVZwk3rfOxyMy4jNK0YNz__QqwQ
https://mega.nz/file/gsgT0bjI#5XBrqvdhpfm7f_4GJS_W8c995g9WpTy-7N6H3GsJjaI

This is what community policing will actually look like. People taking the situation into their own hands when the social workers fail.

FYI the "4th guy" wasn't pretending to surrender. He was actually holding his hands up to not pose a threat as he just watched another guy get shot in the chest. He reached for the gun in attempt to subdue the assailant. Printed across his hat in big letters are the words "Paramedic." He has a paramedic bag as well. He has a gun because he was actually there with the armed protesters. The guy you called an asshat was actually there to try and help. Nice! 

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3790 on: August 27, 2020, 01:24:45 PM »
Breakdown of sequence of events by NYT based on review of videos.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3791 on: August 27, 2020, 01:27:49 PM »
The problem I have with this administration and the current GOP is far more basic: 

By their own proclaimations Trump is the 'law-and-order' candidate, yet these protests and riots and shootings we are discussing have occurred under this administration.  I do not see the situation improving, rather tensions seem to be building.  While both sides like to blame the other for all societal ills, I don't see how things will get any better without some substantial changes.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3792 on: August 27, 2020, 01:27:57 PM »
<someone complains about constant strawman arguments toward conservatives>
<reply with a strawman argument>

Today I learned that providing direct quotes from one of the biggest names in conservatism is a "strawman argument".

I don't watch Tucker, so I searched for this clip. Not one sentence from a 7+ min segment, but the whole thing. I'm sure you'll appreciate more context behind his reasoning, even if you disagree. https://video.foxnews.com/v/6184852089001#sp=show-clips

Your quote starts about 2:57 timestamp. More context for it starts about 2:25. I'm just dumb hick right winger, but I don't see anything that suggests Tucker is trivializing the loss of life. Care to inform me what is so bad about what he said?

I personally think this whole situation is very tragic. I'll tend to agree with what Tucker said. It's first and foremost the responsibilities of the authorities to uphold law and order. When they fail to do that, you're going to see more businesses burning down, more vigilantes, more deaths. It needs to end.

See now this is an actual strawman argument. You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say in an attempt to make me seem unreasonable ("dumb hick right winger").

But sure, let me spend my time to pull some quotes for you from the video. Let's start with the first sentence:

"Last night the chaos that began with the George Floyd protests reached it's inevitable and bloody conclusion."
- Seeks to blame the protesters for a MAGA teen shooting them.
- Seeks to normalize/excuse the shooting as "inevitable" or required.
- Ignores entirely the caused for the renewed violence, namely that a police officer walked up behind a black man as he was getting in his car with his kids in the back, grabbed him by the back collar, and shot him seven times in the back.

<queue fear-mongering of things burning>

"Two people DIED, many of the details remain hazy."
- Again seeks to blame the deaths on the protesters, not the person responsible, especially right after that fear-mongering montage.

"Big media organizations have sought to downplay and ignore the violence."
- Blatant lie that is impossible to fact check. This is headline news everywhere. Just more standard "all news is lying to you except for Fox" propaganda.

<queue fear-mongering graphic video of one of the victims>
- Again still at no point has there been any mention that this was not done by the protesters, but by a "blue lives" counter-protester.

<finally acknowledges that this was done by a counter-protestor>

"But we do know why this happened because the Governor on down refused to enforce the law, they stood back and watched Kenosha burn. So are we really surprised that looting and arson accelerated to murder?"
- Again an opinion, not a fact, making it impossible to fact-check.
- Again seeks to blame other people (Governor, "on down", "looters" and "arsonists") for the actions of a MAGA teen.
- Notice how when Tucker is talking about the teen himself it's "a court of law will have to decide if this is self-defense or not" but when he's blaming the deaths on Democrats it's definitely "murder".

"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
- We should be very very shocked, although he seems to be implying otherwise.
- It's not this kids job to "maintain order", even if it needs to be done, and if someone died as a result of this kid's vigilantism then he absolutely should be convicted of murder.
- So here we've moved from giving the kid an unreasonable and enormous benefit of the doubt that he illegally crossed state lines with an illegally-possessed firearm to counter-protest with it "just in case" he needed to "defend himself", to outright admitting that the kid went looking to kill someone and that it's okay that he did because "he had to maintain order".

<queue more fear-mongering video of people peacefully walking and exercising their freedom of speech, and catching a piece of paper on fire, with what seems like one woman saying the worst things that Fox could find>
- Is that lady legitimate or a plant?
- Does it matter? Speech is free. Even if she's real she's obviously just venting, not hatching some plan to overthrow the government.

"It could have been a dozen other places in this country; the violence has been building unabated for three months now. Every day the mob becomes more radical."
- Lie, lie, and lie.

"Democratic have openly encouraged encouraged them."
- Lie. Democrats support solving the problems at the base of the protest, not "looting".
- “The needless violence won’t heal us.” -Joe Biden

<Apparently Nikki Hailey is not conservative enough for Tucker now>

<Apparently Nixon is good>

<Apparently Trump is good because he's sending the military to suppress US Citizens>
- So much for conservatives being against a tyrannical federal government, eh?

"If Federal Prosecutors had treated the organizers of BLM and Antifa the way they treated Roger Stone our cities wouldn't look like Kosovo tonight."
- More fear mongering.
- "Leaders" of "Antifa" is an oxymoron, it's not an organization. There is no Antifa mailing list or structure. There's no Antifa BBQ. "Antifa" is just what people call themselves if they think that fascism is on the rise and they oppose it.
- Fascism, like, you know, arresting the leadership of any organization that Tucker doesn't like the politics of.
- Poor old Roger Stone, how dare those mean old feds prove that he's guilty of witness tampering and lying to investigators.

Alright, I'm tired now.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3793 on: August 27, 2020, 01:30:20 PM »
ixtap is right tough. That's not a straw-man. Heck you can look up statistics and find that the bulk of Conservatives don't even see racism as an issue. Why would the current administration deal with something it doesn't even perceive as an issue? Cities are in chaos and the man in charge thinks the only solution is more armed people.

Tucker literally even says that racism is not an issue at the end of that video.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3794 on: August 27, 2020, 01:39:38 PM »
ixtap is right tough. That's not a straw-man. Heck you can look up statistics and find that the bulk of Conservatives don't even see racism as an issue. Why would the current administration deal with something it doesn't even perceive as an issue? Cities are in chaos and the man in charge thinks the only solution is more armed people.

Tucker literally even says that racism is not an issue at the end of that video.

Well, it isn't for him and those who sign his paychecks, so then it must not be an issue at all, right?

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3795 on: August 27, 2020, 01:49:32 PM »
ixtap is right tough. That's not a straw-man. Heck you can look up statistics and find that the bulk of Conservatives don't even see racism as an issue. Why would the current administration deal with something it doesn't even perceive as an issue? Cities are in chaos and the man in charge thinks the only solution is more armed people.

Tucker literally even says that racism is not an issue at the end of that video.

Well, it isn't for him and those who sign his paychecks, so then it must not be an issue at all, right?

Regardless of political stripe, I find that people who get their news by "watching the news" instead of reading are less informed. The extent to which Fox substitutes outright editorial content for actual coverage is somewhat jaw dropping, though.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3796 on: August 27, 2020, 01:50:43 PM »
ixtap is right tough. That's not a straw-man. Heck you can look up statistics and find that the bulk of Conservatives don't even see racism as an issue. Why would the current administration deal with something it doesn't even perceive as an issue? Cities are in chaos and the man in charge thinks the only solution is more armed people.

Tucker literally even says that racism is not an issue at the end of that video.

Well, it isn't for him and those who sign his paychecks, so then it must not be an issue at all, right?

Regardless of political stripe, I find that people who get their news by "watching the news" instead of reading are less informed. The extent to which Fox substitutes outright editorial content for actual coverage is somewhat jaw dropping, though.

Keeps them safe in court, though!

bloodaxe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3797 on: August 27, 2020, 03:56:34 PM »
Quote
<someone complains about constant strawman arguments toward conservatives>
<reply with a strawman argument>
Today I learned that providing direct quotes from one of the biggest names in conservatism is a "strawman argument".

Quote
"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
-Tucker Carlson Tonight, the most popular program in all cable news.

Yep, sure seems that way.

You didn't directly say it, but it's clear that you are implying:

"Tucker Carlson said X. All conservatives support X."

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3798 on: August 27, 2020, 04:11:08 PM »
Quote
<someone complains about constant strawman arguments toward conservatives>
<reply with a strawman argument>
Today I learned that providing direct quotes from one of the biggest names in conservatism is a "strawman argument".

Quote
"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
-Tucker Carlson Tonight, the most popular program in all cable news.

Yep, sure seems that way.

You didn't directly say it, but it's clear that you are implying:

"Tucker Carlson said X. All conservatives support X."

Isn’t there more to it though?
“Tucker Carlson said X.  His show is the most popular among conservatives. Viewers continue to tune in. Ergo they at least tacitly support the things he says on his show”

I was always taught that a tenant of conservatism was to be an active participant and selective in what i supported.  It seems a stretch to suggest that one can watch an opinion show night after night and not be permissive off its messages 

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3799 on: August 27, 2020, 05:12:50 PM »
Quote
<someone complains about constant strawman arguments toward conservatives>
<reply with a strawman argument>
Today I learned that providing direct quotes from one of the biggest names in conservatism is a "strawman argument".

Quote
"How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would?"
-Tucker Carlson Tonight, the most popular program in all cable news.

Yep, sure seems that way.

You didn't directly say it, but it's clear that you are implying:

"Tucker Carlson said X. All conservatives support X."

Isn’t there more to it though?
“Tucker Carlson said X.  His show is the most popular among conservatives. Viewers continue to tune in. Ergo they at least tacitly support the things he says on his show”

I was always taught that a tenant of conservatism was to be an active participant and selective in what i supported.  It seems a stretch to suggest that one can watch an opinion show night after night and not be permissive off its messages
Don't be silly. They watch because they don't approve of his message.