Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297436 times)

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3400 on: August 09, 2020, 03:11:11 AM »
No matter who succeeds Trump -
Oswald Spengler called this phase of a civilisation "Caesarism" - a member of the elite arrogates power to himself and undermines the system in the name of the common people. This one may have beneficent intentions, but once the office is established or changed in that way, it remains so. You will get an Augustus then you will get a Caligula.

Do not fear Trump. Fear who he has enabled to come after him.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3401 on: August 09, 2020, 03:13:14 AM »
Just in case the pandemic wasn't bad enough, the government is also incapable of negotiating a compromise for further economic support.  This should be one of their most basic functions, yet they failed.  Putting executive orders out is dead on arrival - if the President can wield the power of the purse then Congress would be neutered.

Quote
House negotiators Mark Meadows and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin say they are recommending President Donald Trump move ahead with a series of executive orders aimed at extending the federal moratorium on evictions, continuing federal unemployment benefits and suspending the payroll tax.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a tactic to make it look like Republicans are doing something while knowing full well that it is DOA.

So Trump did issue these EOs.

If any are followed, like the Treasury issuing $300 for unemployment or ignoring taxes, then we are truly in a Roman Republic/Empire transition.

Trump has managed to take incredibly large and pressing problems and metastasize them into a colossal cluster f*#$.   This series of four executive orders are going to bog down in lawsuits and funding fiascoes, thus sucking away precious time and energy Congress needs to actually address real problems.  The courts are going to be kicking this up and down the court system until November at least.  Turning real issues in to politics - only a genius could come up with such a brilliant strategy!

For all those folks that hoped their eviction issues would go away for a while, student loan payments would be deferred, folks that depend on enhanced unemployment, and folks that think they are getting a break on payroll taxes - strap in for a bumpy ride...

I think having this in the courts is exactly what he wants.

Are the democrats going to sue to stop orders preventing evictions and increasing unemployment benefits right before an election?

He ran on draining the swamp / Washington is incompetent. These things are true, but nothing has really changed (just like hope & change).

But I don't think anyone believes that the current stimulus negotiations were about helping people. Dems want bail outs for poorly run states and Reps want liability protection to protect businesses.

Tactically, I think this move helps Trump because it looks like it puts him more on the side of the people than the politicians .

But, I think ruling by EO sucks and erodes the system in the medium to long term. Even when the policy is good (see buying prescription drugs from Canada). I also thought the same thing when Obama was ruling by EO or rules changes.

The system is set up for a reason. But IMO it's easier to do an end around like this when the congress and senate are playing BS games (which is probably always).


AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3402 on: August 09, 2020, 03:13:32 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

He's ensuring that only exclusively 'Murican foil will be used for the nation's tinfoil hats. You know, to protect against the 5G Chinavirus circulated by TikTok. Everyone knows that masks are for snowflakes.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3403 on: August 09, 2020, 03:15:37 AM »
No matter who succeeds Trump -
Oswald Spengler called this phase of a civilisation "Caesarism" - a member of the elite arrogates power to himself and undermines the system in the name of the common people. This one may have beneficent intentions, but once the office is established or changed in that way, it remains so. You will get an Augustus then you will get a Caligula.

Do not fear Trump. Fear who he has enabled to come after him.

Ivanka as Caligula. I can see it.

marty998

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3404 on: August 09, 2020, 06:00:20 AM »
No matter who succeeds Trump -
Oswald Spengler called this phase of a civilisation "Caesarism" - a member of the elite arrogates power to himself and undermines the system in the name of the common people. This one may have beneficent intentions, but once the office is established or changed in that way, it remains so. You will get an Augustus then you will get a Caligula.

Do not fear Trump. Fear who he has enabled to come after him.

Ivanka as Caligula. I can see it.

So History does in fact repeat. Repeatedly.

This too shall pass I guess.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3405 on: August 09, 2020, 07:21:11 AM »
From Trump's executive order:


"In essence, the deferral is an interest-free loan that would have to be repaid. Trump said he’ll try to get lawmakers to extend it, and the timing would line up with a post-election lame-duck session in which Congress will try to pass government funding bills.

“If I win, I may extend and terminate,” Trump said, repeating a longtime goal but remaining silent on how he'd fund the Medicare and Social Security benefits that the 7% tax on employee income covers. "

This is brilliant.   Essentially saying if you vote for me, you maybe won't have to pay back the loan.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3406 on: August 09, 2020, 07:59:52 AM »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3407 on: August 09, 2020, 08:13:14 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

Canadians were massively pissed off the last time he did this.  Lots of normally non-political Canadians started their own person boycotts of American goods, but calmed down after the new NAFTA was signed.  Consumer buying is way down with the pandemic, but I wouldn't be surprised if the people who boycotted last time start looking really carefully at country of origin at the grocery store.  All the garlic lovers I know already do this, they won't buy garlic from China.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3408 on: August 09, 2020, 09:24:19 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

Canadians were massively pissed off the last time he did this.  Lots of normally non-political Canadians started their own person boycotts of American goods, but calmed down after the new NAFTA was signed.  Consumer buying is way down with the pandemic, but I wouldn't be surprised if the people who boycotted last time start looking really carefully at country of origin at the grocery store.  All the garlic lovers I know already do this, they won't buy garlic from China.
I am surprised China even has garlic to export. I never heard that this was a major agricultural good, and the Chinese surely using a lot themselves.
On the other hand we Germans get potatoes from Israel depending on which month of the year, and Israel never struck me as a prime potato producer, not to mention the distance for a low price product.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3409 on: August 09, 2020, 09:49:13 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

Canadians were massively pissed off the last time he did this.  Lots of normally non-political Canadians started their own person boycotts of American goods, but calmed down after the new NAFTA was signed.  Consumer buying is way down with the pandemic, but I wouldn't be surprised if the people who boycotted last time start looking really carefully at country of origin at the grocery store.  All the garlic lovers I know already do this, they won't buy garlic from China.
I am surprised China even has garlic to export. I never heard that this was a major agricultural good, and the Chinese surely using a lot themselves.
On the other hand we Germans get potatoes from Israel depending on which month of the year, and Israel never struck me as a prime potato producer, not to mention the distance for a low price product.
And the use, direct or indirect, of water stolen from the Palestinians.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3410 on: August 09, 2020, 09:49:46 AM »
Seems to me the poster who brought up burning pig heads and bibles was suggesting that it was justification for police action and more specifically arresting and... I guess jailing them? To be fair, it can be pretty difficult to discern what this guy is trying to say sometimes.



I was not advocating that. Masterstache had wondered why Trump had not considered other tactics since  force was resulting in injuries. He had not elaborated upon what these other tactics were so I infered that they involved negotiations. (Apparently this was wrong.)

The problem with negotiations is that you have to have a "middle ground" to meet on. If someone went looking for a pigs head for the specific purpose of setting it on fire, I don't think that is a mindset conducive to negotiations.  The issue with the Bible was "when was the last time you agreed with a group who organized a book burning?" Usually that is associated with authoritarian thinking.

So yeah, you can burn pigs heads and Bible's, it just seems extreme and an escalation as Scottish pointed out.
Again, I never "wondered" as such. I already pointed out this is a straw-man fallacy you created. I cannot elaborate on a claim I did not make, which should seem obvious.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3411 on: August 09, 2020, 09:58:32 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

Canadians were massively pissed off the last time he did this.  Lots of normally non-political Canadians started their own person boycotts of American goods, but calmed down after the new NAFTA was signed.  Consumer buying is way down with the pandemic, but I wouldn't be surprised if the people who boycotted last time start looking really carefully at country of origin at the grocery store.  All the garlic lovers I know already do this, they won't buy garlic from China.
I am surprised China even has garlic to export. I never heard that this was a major agricultural good, and the Chinese surely using a lot themselves.
On the other hand we Germans get potatoes from Israel depending on which month of the year, and Israel never struck me as a prime potato producer, not to mention the distance for a low price product.
And the use, direct or indirect, of water stolen from the Palestinians.

Israel needs to finish conquering the Palestinians and completely wipe the people and their culture completely off the map.  Not that I'm in favour of ethnic cleansing . . . But the current state of being an oppressive occupying army with full political, military, and economic control over a repressed and discriminated people while slowly stealing more land each year, robbing the country of the ability to do grow in any way, and then pretending outrage when those people attempt to fight back somehow seems worse.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3412 on: August 09, 2020, 10:21:35 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

Canadians were massively pissed off the last time he did this.  Lots of normally non-political Canadians started their own person boycotts of American goods, but calmed down after the new NAFTA was signed.  Consumer buying is way down with the pandemic, but I wouldn't be surprised if the people who boycotted last time start looking really carefully at country of origin at the grocery store.  All the garlic lovers I know already do this, they won't buy garlic from China.
I am surprised China even has garlic to export. I never heard that this was a major agricultural good, and the Chinese surely using a lot themselves.
On the other hand we Germans get potatoes from Israel depending on which month of the year, and Israel never struck me as a prime potato producer, not to mention the distance for a low price product.
And the use, direct or indirect, of water stolen from the Palestinians.

Israel needs to finish conquering the Palestinians and completely wipe the people and their culture completely off the map.  Not that I'm in favour of ethnic cleansing . . . But the current state of being an oppressive occupying army with full political, military, and economic control over a repressed and discriminated people while slowly stealing more land each year, robbing the country of the ability to do grow in any way, and then pretending outrage when those people attempt to fight back somehow seems worse.
[a /quote]
I'd rather frame it as a one State solution with equal rights, no religious or ethnic discrimination and restitution.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3413 on: August 09, 2020, 10:37:12 AM »
Palestinians will never recieve equal rights from Israelis in Israel, and the Israelis will never allow Palestine to function as a real country.  I honestly can't see a remotely realistic way that either could ever be achieved at this point.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3414 on: August 09, 2020, 12:14:49 PM »
We may have finally arrived at the 'Emperor has no clothes' moment for Trump.  The tipping point, which Trump keeps moving toward like a moth to a flame, will ultimately come where, even if Republicans really want to believe Trump is Making America Great Again, the reality of pervasive debt, death, and international ridicule is too much to overcome on even a daily basis...

You would hope but Grassley thinks the EOs are a good idea. He's trying to give away his role as a Senator; he should know that revolutions often eat their children.


I think having this in the courts is exactly what he wants.

Are the democrats going to sue to stop orders preventing evictions and increasing unemployment benefits right before an election?

I'm not convinced a lawsuit will hurt the Democrats. The base will continue to sing the praises of the GEOTUS but it's too late for many of the independents -- they know he's a liar.

We'll know in a few weeks when the polls come out.

Quote
The system is set up for a reason. But IMO it's easier to do an end around like this when the congress and senate are playing BS games (which is probably always).

Well, sure. It's easy for Kim Jong-un to create mandates, too.

gaja

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3415 on: August 09, 2020, 12:56:29 PM »
Palestinians will never recieve equal rights from Israelis in Israel, and the Israelis will never allow Palestine to function as a real country.  I honestly can't see a remotely realistic way that either could ever be achieved at this point.

I thought Jared Kushner was supposed to fix the middle east? No point for the rest of us to worry, right?

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3416 on: August 09, 2020, 05:25:18 PM »
From Trump's executive order:
"In essence, the deferral is an interest-free loan that would have to be repaid. Trump said he’ll try to get lawmakers to extend it, and the timing would line up with a post-election lame-duck session in which Congress will try to pass government funding bills.

“If I win, I may extend and terminate,” Trump said, repeating a longtime goal but remaining silent on how he'd fund the Medicare and Social Security benefits that the 7% tax on employee income covers. "

This is brilliant.   Essentially saying if you vote for me, you maybe won't have to pay back the loan.

I'm hoping that was sarcasm.  It pretty much neuters the EO since the power to tax and change tax law resides in Congress, and more specifically in the House which is expected to remain under Dem party control in 2021.  Even Republican's are beginning to get nervous about the out of control national deficit and debt.  They used to pride themselves on being fiscally responsible... but instead they get to be the party that will usher in a national debt that is now greater than the GDP - https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/24/politics/federal-budget-deficit-cbo-estimate/index.html 

This used to be one thing keeping Republican's unified, making sure Democrats didn't run up a giant tab providing universal medical care, saving the environment, or any of those other silly things they think are good ideas.  Although the tax cut was nice, the timing could not have been worse.  Only Trump could think doubling down on insolvency would look like a winning strategy!

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3417 on: August 09, 2020, 05:54:31 PM »
From Trump's executive order:
"In essence, the deferral is an interest-free loan that would have to be repaid. Trump said he’ll try to get lawmakers to extend it, and the timing would line up with a post-election lame-duck session in which Congress will try to pass government funding bills.

“If I win, I may extend and terminate,” Trump said, repeating a longtime goal but remaining silent on how he'd fund the Medicare and Social Security benefits that the 7% tax on employee income covers. "

This is brilliant.   Essentially saying if you vote for me, you maybe won't have to pay back the loan.

I'm hoping that was sarcasm.  It pretty much neuters the EO since the power to tax and change tax law resides in Congress, and more specifically in the House which is expected to remain under Dem party control in 2021.  Even Republican's are beginning to get nervous about the out of control national deficit and debt.  They used to pride themselves on being fiscally responsible... but instead they get to be the party that will usher in a national debt that is now greater than the GDP - https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/24/politics/federal-budget-deficit-cbo-estimate/index.html 

This used to be one thing keeping Republican's unified, making sure Democrats didn't run up a giant tab providing universal medical care, saving the environment, or any of those other silly things they think are good ideas.  Although the tax cut was nice, the timing could not have been worse.  Only Trump could think doubling down on insolvency would look like a winning strategy!

Only fiscally responsible when it comes to non-military spending. Republicans never met a weapon system they didn't love. One of them tried to slip $8 billion for F-35s into the first draft of the latest virus deal.

I was born when Reagan took office. I don't recall in my lifetime that Republicans were ever fiscally conservative across the board.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 05:57:43 PM by Travis »

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3418 on: August 09, 2020, 09:26:26 PM »
Palestinians will never recieve equal rights from Israelis in Israel, and the Israelis will never allow Palestine to function as a real country.  I honestly can't see a remotely realistic way that either could ever be achieved at this point.

I thought Jared Kushner was supposed to fix the middle east? No point for the rest of us to worry, right?
Slumlord millionaire can’t even fix the properties he owns.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3419 on: August 10, 2020, 04:01:50 AM »
From Trump's executive order:
"In essence, the deferral is an interest-free loan that would have to be repaid. Trump said he’ll try to get lawmakers to extend it, and the timing would line up with a post-election lame-duck session in which Congress will try to pass government funding bills.

“If I win, I may extend and terminate,” Trump said, repeating a longtime goal but remaining silent on how he'd fund the Medicare and Social Security benefits that the 7% tax on employee income covers. "

This is brilliant.   Essentially saying if you vote for me, you maybe won't have to pay back the loan.

I'm hoping that was sarcasm.  It pretty much neuters the EO since the power to tax and change tax law resides in Congress, and more specifically in the House which is expected to remain under Dem party control in 2021.  Even Republican's are beginning to get nervous about the out of control national deficit and debt.  They used to pride themselves on being fiscally responsible... but instead they get to be the party that will usher in a national debt that is now greater than the GDP - https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/24/politics/federal-budget-deficit-cbo-estimate/index.html 

This used to be one thing keeping Republican's unified, making sure Democrats didn't run up a giant tab providing universal medical care, saving the environment, or any of those other silly things they think are good ideas.  Although the tax cut was nice, the timing could not have been worse.  Only Trump could think doubling down on insolvency would look like a winning strategy!

Only fiscally responsible when it comes to non-military spending. Republicans never met a weapon system they didn't love. One of them tried to slip $8 billion for F-35s into the first draft of the latest virus deal.

I was born when Reagan took office. I don't recall in my lifetime that Republicans were ever fiscally conservative across the board.
Congratulations on your good memory!
Conservatives of all country pride themselves on financial responsibility, but in fact they create more debt than "leftists". Of course that is a statistic, and who knows who has created that lie...

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3420 on: August 10, 2020, 06:21:30 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

He was elected on the belief that Mexico being part of NAFTA is a national security threat, and that crowd of supporters still believe in him.

FTFY

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3421 on: August 10, 2020, 06:29:01 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

He was elected on the belief that Mexico being part of NAFTA is a national security threat, and that crowd of supporters still believe in him.

FTFY

How could Mexico be a national security threat?  They're gracious enough to pay for an entire border wall across the US!

Roadrunner53

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jim555

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3423 on: August 10, 2020, 07:34:17 AM »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3424 on: August 10, 2020, 07:38:52 AM »
Just in case the pandemic wasn't bad enough, the government is also incapable of negotiating a compromise for further economic support.  This should be one of their most basic functions, yet they failed.  Putting executive orders out is dead on arrival - if the President can wield the power of the purse then Congress would be neutered.

Quote
House negotiators Mark Meadows and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin say they are recommending President Donald Trump move ahead with a series of executive orders aimed at extending the federal moratorium on evictions, continuing federal unemployment benefits and suspending the payroll tax.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a tactic to make it look like Republicans are doing something while knowing full well that it is DOA.

So Trump did issue these EOs.


Terminology matters.  Trump did NOT sign four Executive Orders - he signed one, plus three memorandums.  The memorandums do not carry the weight and authority of a executive order.  For instance, one of the memorandums simply instructs the Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to “consider” whether it is necessary to halt evictions, and if so to give guidance.  That's a far cry from an eviction moratorium, which would actually prevent people from being evicted from their homes.

Likewise, the EO which redirects FEMA funds to Federal UI payments of $300 (to be matched by $100 in State funding) might not have any legal standing.  The courts have already ruled against his reallocation of congressionally appointed funds to help construct a boarder wall, and from what I've read most Constitutional scholars are skeptical that he can require states to contribute - particularly since the power of the purse is the purview of Congress.

tl;dr - the actions Trump took do far less than they Trump claims, and some might not have any authority at all.  Congress still needs to act.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3425 on: August 10, 2020, 08:00:48 AM »
Indeed Trump's actions represent an attempt to win control of the news cycle.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3426 on: August 10, 2020, 08:07:18 AM »
nereo, can you post a link about Trump signing the memorandums?

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3427 on: August 10, 2020, 08:55:29 AM »
nereo, can you post a link about Trump signing the memorandums?

Here's one synopsis:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/08/08/trump-executive-order-coronavirus/
And another:
https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2020/president-trump-signed-an-executive-order-and-three-memoranda-over-the-weekend-heres-what-they-do/

Part of the confusion lies with how Trump himself has referred to these actions, at times calling them "Bills" and "Acts" even though they are neither.  A number of press stories have been particularly lazy declaring them as "four Executive Orders" and not noting the limitations of memorandums or the breadth of the specific Executive Order.

If you want to read the actual memorandums and EO, they are available here:
**be warned, it reads in sections like a stump speech, with frequent attacks on Democrats, and a lot of references about how great Trump is**
Memorandum on Student Loan Relief
Memorandum on Needs Assistance
Memorandum on deferring payroll tax
Executive Order

caracarn

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3428 on: August 10, 2020, 08:57:25 AM »
Taking some time to read the EOs shows they will do nothing.  The $400 only happens if state governors sign an agreement, which most or all will not do.  They also have to administer it themselves and it is not through unemployment processes, this would be a whole new process.  During an pandemic when states have no way to come up with his $100 and to and more work, most states will do nothing which means people get nothing.  Not the $300 for the Feds nor the $100 from their state.  It is a blowhard set to EOs.  The payroll tax is similar as corporations need to accept it.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3429 on: August 10, 2020, 09:01:34 AM »
Indeed it sounds like it positions Trump to say "Look at this thing I tried to do to help struggling people, only to be prevented by these horrible governors!"

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3430 on: August 10, 2020, 10:15:46 AM »
The payroll tax 'holiday' is particularly problematic for me.

It relies on voluntary employer participation, and is a deferment of the taxes, not their elimination.  Trump promises he'll absolve the deferment *if* he is re-elected (and if both the House and Senate agree).  If this is accomplished it permanently impacts medicare and SS, which are two programs that cannot afford to take a hit.

Finally, it rewards people who already have jobs yet does nothing for people who are unemployed.  Since it's a fixed percentage of a person's paycheque it would give the most money to people who earn at/near $100k (saving ~$115 per bi-weekly pay period) and very little to people earning $20k (saving them $23).

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3431 on: August 10, 2020, 10:22:16 AM »
Seriously, Trump is not smart enough to come up with all this stuff! Who is the mastermind puppet master pulling his strings and whispering in his ear? There isn't a day that goes by that he doesn't say something or do something outrageous. No one person could come up with all this craziness day after day.

But why would his puppet master want him to look like a fool day after day?

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3432 on: August 10, 2020, 10:45:28 AM »
Quote

But I don't think anyone believes that the current stimulus negotiations were about helping people. Dems want bail outs for poorly run states and Reps want liability protection to protect businesses.

Tactically, I think this move helps Trump because it looks like it puts him more on the side of the people than the politicians .

But, I think ruling by EO sucks and erodes the system in the medium to long term. Even when the policy is good (see buying prescription drugs from Canada). I also thought the same thing when Obama was ruling by EO or rules changes.

....

I'm sorry but this is false. This isn't about states being poorly run or not. Even states like California who were running a surplus and putting aside extra money in a rainy day fund are now hurting, because the scale of this crisis far surpasses normal emergency savings. The way to help individuals is to make sure that the states remain solvent so they can continue providing all of the social services so urgently needed right now.

Look at New Zealand. Another poster around these parts summarized it for us saying that the way they got and are keeping COVID under control in that country is simple. Pay people 80% of their salary for x weeks to stay home so they can put a clamp on transmission. Use that time to put in place a robust trace-and-test scheme, and then slowly open up with appropriate measures in place to stamp out any little fires that pop up.

Compare that to the US: no comprehensive shutdown, no comprehensive financial support for people who are then made to choose between keeping food on the table or risking their lives and others, insufficient testing, insufficient tracing. There was no possibility for us to get anything other than a resurgence of disease after states started opening up because we never closed sufficiently to begin with in many states, and didn't use that time to put a correct system in place to protect us after opening.

I know I'm wandering a bit off topic here, but the common thread is that our government wasn't willing to spend what it took to get this under control and wasn't willing to sacrifice to actually help the individual people who are now suffering. So as a result we are all suffering a neutered economy, global shunning, and a disease that will likely continue to run rampant for the next 6-12 months leaving hundreds of thousands dead. 

caracarn

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3433 on: August 10, 2020, 12:22:31 PM »
@ysette9 You are right on point that with better leadership we could have done SO much better.  Instead we have to suffer through this until the election (I pray this will result in a change or god help us the disaster we will become) when someone competent and willing to listen to advisors gets in.  It did not have to be this way and as more people realize that it seals to doom of those in power right now.  This will likely go down as one of the most catastrophic failures in history, not just for the US, but anywhere.  Trump wants to win.  He will be a winner of the biggest loser on this one for all eternity.

The challenge will be if it is even possible to spend enough once a new administration gets in or if at that point (if not already) we are doomed to limp through this until herd immunity kicks in after several years.  It can make the next four years very lackluster. 

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3434 on: August 10, 2020, 04:30:22 PM »
No matter who succeeds Trump -
Oswald Spengler called this phase of a civilisation "Caesarism" - a member of the elite arrogates power to himself and undermines the system in the name of the common people. This one may have beneficent intentions, but once the office is established or changed in that way, it remains so. You will get an Augustus then you will get a Caligula.

Do not fear Trump. Fear who he has enabled to come after him.

Ivanka as Caligula. I can see it.

So History does in fact repeat. Repeatedly.

This too shall pass I guess.

Like the Roman Empire? Sure - the USA playing second fiddle to China will be fun... Especially watching all the politicians, rednecks and MAGA attempt to rationalize that...

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3435 on: August 10, 2020, 05:02:56 PM »
No matter who succeeds Trump -
Oswald Spengler called this phase of a civilisation "Caesarism" - a member of the elite arrogates power to himself and undermines the system in the name of the common people. This one may have beneficent intentions, but once the office is established or changed in that way, it remains so. You will get an Augustus then you will get a Caligula.

Do not fear Trump. Fear who he has enabled to come after him.

Ivanka as Caligula. I can see it.

So History does in fact repeat. Repeatedly.

This too shall pass I guess.

Like the Roman Empire? Sure - the USA playing second fiddle to China will be fun... Especially watching all the politicians, rednecks and MAGA attempt to rationalize that...

They will increase their purchases of Chinese-made flag print clothing and fire off even more Chinese-made fireworks on July 4.

sequoia

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3436 on: August 10, 2020, 05:31:05 PM »
So as a result we are all suffering a neutered economy, global shunning, and a disease that will likely continue to run rampant for the next 6-12 months leaving hundreds of thousands dead.

I hope I am wrong, but am honestly thinking it will be at least 12 months or longer before covid is somewhat under control. Even if we have vaccine 6 months from now, it will take time to vaccinate 300M people in the US. That is assuming the vaccine is tested and proven to be effective. Then consider that we have plenty of people who does not want to get the vaccine for whatever reason, so we may have local shutdown here and there when the number of cases goes up. And that is assuming US has new president who will have a national strategy to deal with the pandemic. If this president stays, then the vaccine probably will not be available for even longer time. Especially if Kushner is in charge of the distribution lol Their relatives and friends will get the first batch, everyone else can just wait.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3437 on: August 10, 2020, 05:45:30 PM »
Quote

But I don't think anyone believes that the current stimulus negotiations were about helping people. Dems want bail outs for poorly run states and Reps want liability protection to protect businesses.

Tactically, I think this move helps Trump because it looks like it puts him more on the side of the people than the politicians .

But, I think ruling by EO sucks and erodes the system in the medium to long term. Even when the policy is good (see buying prescription drugs from Canada). I also thought the same thing when Obama was ruling by EO or rules changes.

....

I'm sorry but this is false. This isn't about states being poorly run or not. Even states like California who were running a surplus and putting aside extra money in a rainy day fund are now hurting, because the scale of this crisis far surpasses normal emergency savings. The way to help individuals is to make sure that the states remain solvent so they can continue providing all of the social services so urgently needed right now.

Look at New Zealand. Another poster around these parts summarized it for us saying that the way they got and are keeping COVID under control in that country is simple. Pay people 80% of their salary for x weeks to stay home so they can put a clamp on transmission. Use that time to put in place a robust trace-and-test scheme, and then slowly open up with appropriate measures in place to stamp out any little fires that pop up.

Compare that to the US: no comprehensive shutdown, no comprehensive financial support for people who are then made to choose between keeping food on the table or risking their lives and others, insufficient testing, insufficient tracing. There was no possibility for us to get anything other than a resurgence of disease after states started opening up because we never closed sufficiently to begin with in many states, and didn't use that time to put a correct system in place to protect us after opening.

I know I'm wandering a bit off topic here, but the common thread is that our government wasn't willing to spend what it took to get this under control and wasn't willing to sacrifice to actually help the individual people who are now suffering. So as a result we are all suffering a neutered economy, global shunning, and a disease that will likely continue to run rampant for the next 6-12 months leaving hundreds of thousands dead.

It wasn't quite that simple.
The reason it worked was that we shut the country and the borders when we had 100 or so cases. Bam, just like that, shutdown. Yes, there was an 80% subsidy that employers got to pay to staff, to keep people employed. Thousands of businesses still went under and unemployment has still spiked massively. There was also a subsidy for people unemployed as a result of covid, and a boost to the base unemployment benefit. Yes, a lot of money was spent and continues to be spent, but what actually worked was WHEN we shut down. If it had been even a few days later, we may not have made it. It took months of lockdown just to get rid of the results of 100 cases. And it was also critical when we reopened. We had no active cases when we reopened. We locked down early, hard, and we reopened as late as we could. That's actually what made the difference in terms of the pandemic. The money helped people comply, and moved social issues until after we had dealt with the primary issue, which was covid.

Now we have the other issues. The borders are closed and will be for a long time. They might open at some point to some pacific islands, but that's it. Whole sectors of the economy are crippled. Tourism is a big deal here. A number of very large employers have either gone under or shed thousands of staff. MANY people are finding that they have to shift and adapt careers or ways of generating income. It's not the same as in the US, because we have a comprehensive social safety net that's easy to access, but people are still hurting. Better to be unemployed and alive than dead of a bloody pandemic.


Annnnnnnnd.... we're back in lockdown..... But the good news is that 4 people in the same family tested positive this afternoon, and by 10pm tonight we're in lockdown. No fucking around.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 04:11:48 AM by AnnaGrowsAMustache »

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3438 on: August 11, 2020, 03:16:17 AM »
Quote
But I don't think anyone believes that the current stimulus negotiations were about helping people. Dems want bail outs for poorly run states and Reps want liability protection to protect businesses. 

Strangely that it is always Dems (lefts) trying to save poorly run public institutions, but never ever Republicans (right wingers) wanting to bail out poorly run private companies with tax payer money.


Quote
The challenge will be if it is even possible to spend enough once a new administration gets in or if at that point (if not already) we are doomed to limp through this until herd immunity kicks in after several years.  It can make the next four years very lackluster.
You are aware that herd immunity may not be reachable because the immunity drops off after a few month?
That there might never be a good working vaccine, even if you take it once a year? Not to mention anti-vaccers.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3439 on: August 11, 2020, 07:52:05 AM »
Quote
But I don't think anyone believes that the current stimulus negotiations were about helping people. Dems want bail outs for poorly run states and Reps want liability protection to protect businesses. 

Strangely that it is always Dems (lefts) trying to save poorly run public institutions, but never ever Republicans (right wingers) wanting to bail out poorly run private companies with tax payer money.

That's because private companies can do no wrong.  Free market, capitalism, pull yourself by your own boot straps, etc.  Any argument to the contrary makes you a dirty commie.

:P

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3440 on: August 11, 2020, 09:19:56 AM »
Even Republican's are beginning to get nervous about the out of control national deficit and debt.  They used to pride themselves on being fiscally responsible... but instead they get to be the party that will usher in a national debt that is now greater than the GDP - https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/24/politics/federal-budget-deficit-cbo-estimate/index.html 

This used to be one thing keeping Republican's unified, making sure Democrats didn't run up a giant tab providing universal medical care, saving the environment, or any of those other silly things they think are good ideas.  Although the tax cut was nice, the timing could not have been worse.  Only Trump could think doubling down on insolvency would look like a winning strategy!

None of this is even remotely true. Republicans have never in my lifetime decreased the national deficit when they were in power. They only claim to care when there is a Democratic president as an excuse so that they can blindly oppose and sabotage everything.

The idea that Republicans are "fiscally conservative" is a complete and utter lie, and should be called out every time it is repeated. Every time they are in power they increase government spending and cut taxes, which obviously increases the deficit. We have such a huge debt / deficit now almost exclusively because of Republican deficit spending. Trump is just the latest typical Republican in this regard.

They're only starting to pretend to care about the deficit now to prepare for the possibility of a Biden presidency, when they'll once again use it as an excuse to blindly obstruct/sabotage everything he does.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3441 on: August 11, 2020, 09:25:52 AM »


Synospis:  Eisenhower & Nixon were the last GOP presidents to preside over a reduction in the federal debt (relative to GDP).


Truman, JFK/LBJ, Carter and Clinton also left office with a lower Debt than when they took office. Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr, 'W',  and Obama all presided over an expanding debt-to-GDP ratio. To date Trump has also presided over a large expansion of our federal debt, which was ongoing before the Covid-19 crisis, and has since accelerated.

Normal caveats apply: Presidents claim too much credit when the economy is good and too little when it is bad.  Administrations have little control over situations they inherit, and may or may not be responsible for various crises during their tenure, which often is in the eye of the beholder.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 09:46:47 AM by nereo »

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3442 on: August 11, 2020, 09:33:03 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

Trump has no ability to add tariffs unless it's a national security threat, so therefore of course Canada's aluminum production is an attack on the basic solvency of our nation. As for "why", I think it's just blatant electioneering. He's trying to position himself as the person who saved the aluminum / steel worker's jobs.

Never mind that economists are basically in compete agreement that when tarries make sense they make sense on competed goods, not raw materials. Because making aluminum more expensive helps the aluminum manufacturers, but also equally hurts everyone who's trying to make stuff out of aluminum. It's not about helping the country, or about applying consistent principles about trade or globalism (Republicans and "consistent principles", what a ridiculous idea). It's purely an attempt to buy votes right before the election.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3443 on: August 11, 2020, 09:40:58 AM »
Synospis:  Eisenhower was the last GOP president to consistently reduce the federal debt, and this was largely the result of a huge economic expansion.
JFK/LBJ, Carter and Clinton also left office with a lower Debt than when they took office. Reagan, Bush Sr, 'W' and Obama all presided over an expanding debt-to-GDP ratio.

Right, and for Obama in particular his main job was to get the country out of the worst recession we've seen since the Great Depression, which is precisely when the government is supposed to be deficit spending. So he did, and it worked. And notice the difference in slope between his first few years and the last few years.

Democrats are the only "fiscally responsible" party, period. Republicans have an explicitly stated goal to intentionally induce a debt crisis in order to provide political cover to starve the beast and destroy popular programs like Social Security. You want a government that attempts to actually function and not run itself bankrupt? Vote Democratic. You want intentional mismanagement of government finances and agencies with the end goal of destroying the government itself? Vote Republican.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 09:43:21 AM by sherr »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3444 on: August 11, 2020, 09:57:47 AM »
Here's a slightly different way of looking at it:


The US had a budget surplus during the final three years of Clinton's presidency, and the first of 'W's.

Reagan, Bush Sr, Obama and Trump have never presided over even one year of surplus.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3445 on: August 11, 2020, 11:21:33 AM »
Synospis:  Eisenhower was the last GOP president to consistently reduce the federal debt, and this was largely the result of a huge economic expansion.
JFK/LBJ, Carter and Clinton also left office with a lower Debt than when they took office. Reagan, Bush Sr, 'W' and Obama all presided over an expanding debt-to-GDP ratio.

Right, and for Obama in particular his main job was to get the country out of the worst recession we've seen since the Great Depression, which is precisely when the government is supposed to be deficit spending. So he did, and it worked. And notice the difference in slope between his first few years and the last few years.

Democrats are the only "fiscally responsible" party, period. Republicans have an explicitly stated goal to intentionally induce a debt crisis in order to provide political cover to starve the beast and destroy popular programs like Social Security. You want a government that attempts to actually function and not run itself bankrupt? Vote Democratic. You want intentional mismanagement of government finances and agencies with the end goal of destroying the government itself? Vote Republican.

There are no fiscally responsible politicians.

Everyone in government wants more government. They just have different people they funnel the money to.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3446 on: August 11, 2020, 11:27:58 AM »
Synospis:  Eisenhower was the last GOP president to consistently reduce the federal debt, and this was largely the result of a huge economic expansion.
JFK/LBJ, Carter and Clinton also left office with a lower Debt than when they took office. Reagan, Bush Sr, 'W' and Obama all presided over an expanding debt-to-GDP ratio.

Right, and for Obama in particular his main job was to get the country out of the worst recession we've seen since the Great Depression, which is precisely when the government is supposed to be deficit spending. So he did, and it worked. And notice the difference in slope between his first few years and the last few years.

Democrats are the only "fiscally responsible" party, period. Republicans have an explicitly stated goal to intentionally induce a debt crisis in order to provide political cover to starve the beast and destroy popular programs like Social Security. You want a government that attempts to actually function and not run itself bankrupt? Vote Democratic. You want intentional mismanagement of government finances and agencies with the end goal of destroying the government itself? Vote Republican.

There are no fiscally responsible politicians.

Everyone in government wants more government. They just have different people they funnel the money to.

Ah yes, "both sides are the same". Of course they are. Except that the Democrats want to "funnel money" towards helping the poor, the elderly, the sick, and provide for the common good of the country (parks, the EPA, the CDC, the Post Office, etc), whereas Republicans exclusively want to "funnel money" into the pockets of their own relatives and billionaire donors.

But they're both "funneling money", so they're both the same. You feel free to keep on telling people that, I'm legitimately curious how long people are going to listen. Never mind your blatant side-step of the actual point, which is that Republicans are a blatantly anti-fiscally-responsible party who are intentionally wracking up deficits whenever they are in power and Democrats don't.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 11:34:17 AM by sherr »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3447 on: August 11, 2020, 11:37:03 AM »
There are no fiscally responsible politicians.

Everyone in government wants more government. They just have different people they funnel the money to.

That's not true either. 

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3448 on: August 11, 2020, 12:01:46 PM »
There are no fiscally responsible politicians.

Everyone in government wants more government. They just have different people they funnel the money to.

That's not true either.

Nope. But it's easier to make blanket statements like that than to think critically about what the differences are and why.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3449 on: August 11, 2020, 12:21:55 PM »
Also, the US deficit for 2020 is literally off the charts compared to historical deficits - 3.7 Trillion and counting (Trump and Congress are trying to get anywhere from another 1 - 3 Trillion approved)...

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56335#:~:text=For%20fiscal%20year%202020%2C%20CBO's,end%20of%20the%20fiscal%20year.