Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297473 times)

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3350 on: August 06, 2020, 06:36:25 AM »
@former player , I added the "I suppose" before Obama because I agree with you that Obama was considered "far left" by many people who honestly didn't deeply study the matter.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3351 on: August 06, 2020, 06:57:42 AM »
Can I add to the discussion of empathy: many people put forward George W. Bush as an example of a failed Presidency: indeed he rose to power with a coalition of Evangelicals, pro-business conservatives, and foreign policy neo-cons, and--with the Iraq war and financial crisis--it felt like all of them receive severe letdowns during his Presidency. (or--in the case of Evangelicals--shortly after with the legalization of gay marriage)

But as a post-President, he's taken on the project of painting portraits of every soldier who died in the Iraq war. He sent them into harm's way, and he feels deeply committed to honoring their sacrifice with his own sweat. That is an act of incredible empathy!

I consider Bush to have been a weak president and a puppet for the stronger forces surrounding him. In his private life, though, he seems like a decent human. I don't know that he would have done a stellar job during this pandemic, given his administration's response to Hurricane Katrina, but I don't think he would have fucked things up nearly as badly or abdicated his responsibility so publicly.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3352 on: August 06, 2020, 07:00:49 AM »
The original SARS was during the Bush Presidency, as well a MERS. And a lot of the infrastructure that helped Obama respond to Swine Flu so effectively in 2009 was built before Obama took office.

Agreed that Katrina was a disaster. But we saw how Trump responded to several hurricanes as well.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3353 on: August 06, 2020, 07:14:26 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3354 on: August 06, 2020, 07:35:58 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

Yeah, what the hell?  Obama was pretty centrist.  I don't understand how his policies could possibly be considered far left.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3355 on: August 06, 2020, 07:50:49 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

Yeah, what the hell?  Obama was pretty centrist.  I don't understand how his policies could possibly be considered far left.

The only thing “far left” was his race...

GreenEggs

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3356 on: August 06, 2020, 08:13:35 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

Yeah, what the hell?  Obama was pretty centrist.  I don't understand how his policies could possibly be considered far left.

The only thing “far left” was his race...


Exactly.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3357 on: August 06, 2020, 09:30:29 AM »
@Wolfpack Mustachian and @nereo in rebuttal all I'll say is that viewed from the other side "slow progress" through rational discourse and peaceful protest has shown little to no result for at least 2 generations.  And while yes, things are obviously better now than they were 3 generations ago, knowing one is not being treated as badly as ones grand or great grandparents were back in the day, probably doesn't make the systemic racism and discrimination being experienced today seem ok or worth patiently putting up with for however long it takes for the ones perpetuating the injustice to finally decide for themselves to change things.

I wont argue that in a perfect world rational discourse and peaceful protest is the ideal strategy, nor will I argue that burning bibles is at all likely to achieve the result they are looking for, I wont even argue than in a perfect world just putting up with it for however long it takes to affect change and doing nothing to upset those who are perpetuating the discrimination and racism would be best for all concerned. 

My point is only that the act of bible burning may not simply be an unthinking desire to piss people off and escalate the situation for no other reason than to be rude asshats.  What's that old saying?  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  Perhaps those suffering injustice today, who have mostly been doing the same thing, with a few short lived riotous exceptions, for 2 generations, may consider it worth trying a different tactic to patient rational discourse and peaceful protest, which also does not involve mindless violence and destruction, but rather is a calculated expression of anger that gets a rise without causing real damage and is very similar to a well established expression of free speech frequently used in other situations.

Just another framing of the situation for possible consideration is all.

The counter to your counter @PKFFW is simply that progress on racial equality stopped largely because peaceful demonstrations and widespread respectful dialog stopped.  This is counter to your assertion that we've been doing "the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  It's also the way that social progress typically occurs.  The civil rights movement started in the late 1940s and dissipated in the early 1970s after a string of legislative and cultural 'wins'.  Then as a society we largely put racial issues on the back burner, assuming and hoping that each the present generation would emerge into a more equal world.

I refute your idea that 3 generations have past, and think that's an inappropriate use of some basic math (i.e. assuming a generation is 20-25 years, then surmising that it's been ~47 years since the end of the civil rights era, ergo 3 generations).  In reality it was the GenXers born into the post-Civil rights, AA world who were promised this new equality, and by all measures they experienced a far better environment than their parents and grandparents, yet it was still a far cry from 'equal' or 'fair'. That's why these issues have once again come to the forefront. In the 1970s the promise was that this new generation would grow into a race-blind world, and it took about this long before most were willing to admit that the gains made - while sizable - had stalled, and more needed to be done.

As for whether flag/bible burning is constructive, it's important to seperate intent from outcome.  Certain some people's intent may be to force the issue or express a point in hopes of highlighting the issue.  But is  it constructive?  I don't think it is, as it provokes a strong emotional response which ultimately shuts down dialog and the willingness for collaboration.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3358 on: August 06, 2020, 09:34:58 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

Yeah, what the hell?  Obama was pretty centrist.  I don't understand how his policies could possibly be considered far left.

The only thing “far left” was his race...
It was useful for the right to paint Obama as far left both to mobilize their base (in part to give them an excuse for at least some of them hating him for racist reasons) and also to make their far right positions (deregulate everything and dismantle social safety nets) seem less extreme.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3359 on: August 06, 2020, 09:48:08 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

Yeah, what the hell?  Obama was pretty centrist.  I don't understand how his policies could possibly be considered far left.

The only thing “far left” was his race...
It was useful for the right to paint Obama as far left both to mobilize their base (in part to give them an excuse for at least some of them hating him for racist reasons) and also to make their far right positions (deregulate everything and dismantle social safety nets) seem less extreme.

Compared to most developed democracies, the 'Progressive wing" (e.g. Warren, Sanders) of the Democratic party holds fairly centrist ideals.  It's hard to stress to follow Americans how conservative our national politics are on the global stage.  At the federal level there's almost a complete lack of elected officials who push truly left-wing policies.  In these other countries Speaker Pelosi would be more at home in one of the Conservative parties.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3360 on: August 06, 2020, 09:52:33 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

Yeah, what the hell?  Obama was pretty centrist.  I don't understand how his policies could possibly be considered far left.

The only thing “far left” was his race...
It was useful for the right to paint Obama as far left both to mobilize their base (in part to give them an excuse for at least some of them hating him for racist reasons) and also to make their far right positions (deregulate everything and dismantle social safety nets) seem less extreme.

Compared to most developed democracies, the 'Progressive wing" (e.g. Warren, Sanders) of the Democratic party holds fairly centrist ideals.  It's hard to stress to follow Americans how conservative our national politics are on the global stage.  At the federal level there's almost a complete lack of elected officials who push truly left-wing policies.  In these other countries Speaker Pelosi would be more at home in one of the Conservative parties.
We can thank our puritanical roots in the north and slavery institutions married to evangelism in the south for that. It is hard to escape your past.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3361 on: August 06, 2020, 10:03:33 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

Only in America.

Yeah, what the hell?  Obama was pretty centrist.  I don't understand how his policies could possibly be considered far left.

The only thing “far left” was his race...
It was useful for the right to paint Obama as far left both to mobilize their base (in part to give them an excuse for at least some of them hating him for racist reasons) and also to make their far right positions (deregulate everything and dismantle social safety nets) seem less extreme.

Compared to most developed democracies, the 'Progressive wing" (e.g. Warren, Sanders) of the Democratic party holds fairly centrist ideals.  It's hard to stress to follow Americans how conservative our national politics are on the global stage.  At the federal level there's almost a complete lack of elected officials who push truly left-wing policies.  In these other countries Speaker Pelosi would be more at home in one of the Conservative parties.
We can thank our puritanical roots in the north and slavery institutions married to evangelism in the south for that. It is hard to escape your past.

One can transcend their past, but only if they are willing to come to terms with it and make the appropriate adjustments. 
We have a great deal of reckoning as a country before we can truly move forward.

Historical perspective: we are not the only country who's history is stained with slavery - yet we seem to have made less progress in that area than most.

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3362 on: August 06, 2020, 11:59:35 AM »
Seems to me the poster who brought up burning pig heads and bibles was suggesting that it was justification for police action and more specifically arresting and... I guess jailing them? To be fair, it can be pretty difficult to discern what this guy is trying to say sometimes.



I was not advocating that. Masterstache had wondered why Trump had not considered other tactics since  force was resulting in injuries. He had not elaborated upon what these other tactics were so I infered that they involved negotiations. (Apparently this was wrong.)

The problem with negotiations is that you have to have a "middle ground" to meet on. If someone went looking for a pigs head for the specific purpose of setting it on fire, I don't think that is a mindset conducive to negotiations.  The issue with the Bible was "when was the last time you agreed with a group who organized a book burning?" Usually that is associated with authoritarian thinking.

So yeah, you can burn pigs heads and Bible's, it just seems extreme and an escalation as Scottish pointed out.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3363 on: August 06, 2020, 12:36:58 PM »
Black Lives Matter is a decentralized group that has been around for a few years (2013). To answer why the protests, and why are they STILL protesting, the group has a number of topic points (main one being police brutality). In July it has evolved to legislation of proposed changes. There are a number of issues in the breathe act, that are essentially the same as protesters in 2016-2019 were protesting. 
 
I imagine that the protests will continue until there is agreement or at least negotiation with the local communities about these issues to make change. Basically the tactic of Trump or other communities to say a) this is an illegimate form of protest or b) ignore it, this will go away, or c) literally bust heads, is neither respectful to the people who continue to protest, nor particularly effective at least at this point. Maybe a better tactic than complaining, would be to listen why they are agitating.   

https://breatheact.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/The-BREATHE-Act-PDF_FINAL3-1.pdf
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 12:45:21 PM by partgypsy »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3364 on: August 06, 2020, 02:07:54 PM »
I've been interested in the reactions to Trump calling the Beirut explosion "an attack".  The interesting point is that there has been no reaction.  In the past if the US President had called a devastating explosion of this nature an attack the world would be acting and reacting accordingly.  But in this case it has been so obvious that he not only doesn't know what he is talking about but that in his second comment he was just trying to justify his original mistake that what he has said has been completely discounted, even in the volatile Middle East and even by close US ally Israel.

Trump has succeeded in making the US Presidency irrelevant in world affairs.  That's possibly the most extraordinary outcome of his term of office.  I'm not sure whether there is any way back from that not just for Trump (there isn't, even if he does get a second term) but for the US Presidency as a whole and for the US position in the world.

I'm pretty sure that it is Trump who has uniquely damaged his own credibility beyond repair.  The fact that he lies multiples times a day about the pandemic (just listen to his daily briefings) makes it pretty easy to ignore his 'gut feeling' about this being an attack while producing no evidence.  There was also Defense Secretary Esper immediately commenting that most officials believe it was an accident.   

I have a feeling any other US President would wait for corroborating evidence before claiming it was an attack and would want to have credible sources.

I do feel terribly for Lebanon, this port was their lifeline to the world.  Definitely a kick 'em while their down situation, Trump's attempt to capitalize on it non-withstanding.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3365 on: August 06, 2020, 03:10:16 PM »
By damaging his credibility, he damages America's credibility, until the American people replace him.

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3366 on: August 06, 2020, 03:26:11 PM »
The counter to your counter @PKFFW is simply that progress on racial equality stopped largely because peaceful demonstrations and widespread respectful dialog stopped.  This is counter to your assertion that we've been doing "the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  It's also the way that social progress typically occurs.  The civil rights movement started in the late 1940s and dissipated in the early 1970s after a string of legislative and cultural 'wins'.  Then as a society we largely put racial issues on the back burner, assuming and hoping that each the present generation would emerge into a more equal world.

I refute your idea that 3 generations have past, and think that's an inappropriate use of some basic math (i.e. assuming a generation is 20-25 years, then surmising that it's been ~47 years since the end of the civil rights era, ergo 3 generations).  In reality it was the GenXers born into the post-Civil rights, AA world who were promised this new equality, and by all measures they experienced a far better environment than their parents and grandparents, yet it was still a far cry from 'equal' or 'fair'. That's why these issues have once again come to the forefront. In the 1970s the promise was that this new generation would grow into a race-blind world, and it took about this long before most were willing to admit that the gains made - while sizable - had stalled, and more needed to be done.

As for whether flag/bible burning is constructive, it's important to seperate intent from outcome.  Certain some people's intent may be to force the issue or express a point in hopes of highlighting the issue.  But is  it constructive?  I don't think it is, as it provokes a strong emotional response which ultimately shuts down dialog and the willingness for collaboration.
That is certainly another valid way to frame the situation.

kenmoremmm

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3367 on: August 06, 2020, 03:38:26 PM »

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3368 on: August 06, 2020, 06:00:06 PM »
@Wolfpack Mustachian and @nereo in rebuttal all I'll say is that viewed from the other side "slow progress" through rational discourse and peaceful protest has shown little to no result for at least 2 generations.  And while yes, things are obviously better now than they were 3 generations ago, knowing one is not being treated as badly as ones grand or great grandparents were back in the day, probably doesn't make the systemic racism and discrimination being experienced today seem ok or worth patiently putting up with for however long it takes for the ones perpetuating the injustice to finally decide for themselves to change things.

I wont argue that in a perfect world rational discourse and peaceful protest is the ideal strategy, nor will I argue that burning bibles is at all likely to achieve the result they are looking for, I wont even argue than in a perfect world just putting up with it for however long it takes to affect change and doing nothing to upset those who are perpetuating the discrimination and racism would be best for all concerned. 

My point is only that the act of bible burning may not simply be an unthinking desire to piss people off and escalate the situation for no other reason than to be rude asshats.  What's that old saying?  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  Perhaps those suffering injustice today, who have mostly been doing the same thing, with a few short lived riotous exceptions, for 2 generations, may consider it worth trying a different tactic to patient rational discourse and peaceful protest, which also does not involve mindless violence and destruction, but rather is a calculated expression of anger that gets a rise without causing real damage and is very similar to a well established expression of free speech frequently used in other situations.

Just another framing of the situation for possible consideration is all.

You bring up some good points. I ultimately don't know their intent, but I've seen enough video of people doing stupid stuff (like the stupid white people spitting on black officers I mentioned above) that when I see someone doing something like the Bible thing, I tend to assume the worst. Also, to be frank, it has the general vibe of conservatives doing stuff just to "own the libs" or of people who try to be provocative and do things to the Koran or something intentionally sacrilegious to Muslims just to "show them."

And overall, to nereo's point (I know you didn't argue against this), I strongly agree that nothing productive will come out of things like Bible burning. I feel very comfortable in that perspective, and as such, I will continually call it out for its stupidity and honestly feel like it's productive for the overall movement to do that as long as it's differentiated from the majority of people who don't do that.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3369 on: August 06, 2020, 06:35:16 PM »
@Wolfpack Mustachian and @nereo in rebuttal all I'll say is that viewed from the other side "slow progress" through rational discourse and peaceful protest has shown little to no result for at least 2 generations.  And while yes, things are obviously better now than they were 3 generations ago, knowing one is not being treated as badly as ones grand or great grandparents were back in the day, probably doesn't make the systemic racism and discrimination being experienced today seem ok or worth patiently putting up with for however long it takes for the ones perpetuating the injustice to finally decide for themselves to change things.

I wont argue that in a perfect world rational discourse and peaceful protest is the ideal strategy, nor will I argue that burning bibles is at all likely to achieve the result they are looking for, I wont even argue than in a perfect world just putting up with it for however long it takes to affect change and doing nothing to upset those who are perpetuating the discrimination and racism would be best for all concerned. 

My point is only that the act of bible burning may not simply be an unthinking desire to piss people off and escalate the situation for no other reason than to be rude asshats.  What's that old saying?  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  Perhaps those suffering injustice today, who have mostly been doing the same thing, with a few short lived riotous exceptions, for 2 generations, may consider it worth trying a different tactic to patient rational discourse and peaceful protest, which also does not involve mindless violence and destruction, but rather is a calculated expression of anger that gets a rise without causing real damage and is very similar to a well established expression of free speech frequently used in other situations.

Just another framing of the situation for possible consideration is all.

You bring up some good points. I ultimately don't know their intent, but I've seen enough video of people doing stupid stuff (like the stupid white people spitting on black officers I mentioned above) that when I see someone doing something like the Bible thing, I tend to assume the worst. Also, to be frank, it has the general vibe of conservatives doing stuff just to "own the libs" or of people who try to be provocative and do things to the Koran or something intentionally sacrilegious to Muslims just to "show them."

And overall, to nereo's point (I know you didn't argue against this), I strongly agree that nothing productive will come out of things like Bible burning. I feel very comfortable in that perspective, and as such, I will continually call it out for its stupidity and honestly feel like it's productive for the overall movement to do that as long as it's differentiated from the majority of people who don't do that.

What's your opinion on rendering an image of the prophet Mohammed (like in the cartoon that Charlie Hebdo did?)

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3370 on: August 06, 2020, 07:12:55 PM »
@Wolfpack Mustachian and @nereo in rebuttal all I'll say is that viewed from the other side "slow progress" through rational discourse and peaceful protest has shown little to no result for at least 2 generations.  And while yes, things are obviously better now than they were 3 generations ago, knowing one is not being treated as badly as ones grand or great grandparents were back in the day, probably doesn't make the systemic racism and discrimination being experienced today seem ok or worth patiently putting up with for however long it takes for the ones perpetuating the injustice to finally decide for themselves to change things.

I wont argue that in a perfect world rational discourse and peaceful protest is the ideal strategy, nor will I argue that burning bibles is at all likely to achieve the result they are looking for, I wont even argue than in a perfect world just putting up with it for however long it takes to affect change and doing nothing to upset those who are perpetuating the discrimination and racism would be best for all concerned. 

My point is only that the act of bible burning may not simply be an unthinking desire to piss people off and escalate the situation for no other reason than to be rude asshats.  What's that old saying?  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  Perhaps those suffering injustice today, who have mostly been doing the same thing, with a few short lived riotous exceptions, for 2 generations, may consider it worth trying a different tactic to patient rational discourse and peaceful protest, which also does not involve mindless violence and destruction, but rather is a calculated expression of anger that gets a rise without causing real damage and is very similar to a well established expression of free speech frequently used in other situations.

Just another framing of the situation for possible consideration is all.

You bring up some good points. I ultimately don't know their intent, but I've seen enough video of people doing stupid stuff (like the stupid white people spitting on black officers I mentioned above) that when I see someone doing something like the Bible thing, I tend to assume the worst. Also, to be frank, it has the general vibe of conservatives doing stuff just to "own the libs" or of people who try to be provocative and do things to the Koran or something intentionally sacrilegious to Muslims just to "show them."

And overall, to nereo's point (I know you didn't argue against this), I strongly agree that nothing productive will come out of things like Bible burning. I feel very comfortable in that perspective, and as such, I will continually call it out for its stupidity and honestly feel like it's productive for the overall movement to do that as long as it's differentiated from the majority of people who don't do that.

What's your opinion on rendering an image of the prophet Mohammed (like in the cartoon that Charlie Hebdo did?)

I think it was a stupid, non-productive thing to do. I think that the response to that cartoon (being violent compared to the general response of people to this instance) does illustrate something about the parties being insulted, but that is peripheral. It was dumb.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3371 on: August 06, 2020, 07:29:55 PM »
From an outsider's point of view, America's pretty screwed up with so much white supremacy and evangelical religion going on.

The main good thing America still has is a wonderful work ethic and high salaries, basically born on the back of talented migrants who continue to prop up the mid-Atlantic/northeast and Silicon Valley.

That aside, the country's in real trouble. Especially if Trump wins another term.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3372 on: August 06, 2020, 07:31:56 PM »
Just wanted to say I’m glad to have had a nice discussion where people both disagreed yet considered alternative viewpoints.  Such things do occasionally happen ;)

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3373 on: August 06, 2020, 07:32:46 PM »
Just wanted to say I’m glad to have had a nice discussion where people both disagreed yet considered alternative viewpoints.  Such things do occasionally happen ;)

Indeed, it has been nice!

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3374 on: August 06, 2020, 09:11:19 PM »
Just wanted to say I’m glad to have had a nice discussion where people both disagreed yet considered alternative viewpoints.  Such things do occasionally happen ;)

Indeed, it has been nice!
Yes, seconded. (or thirded if that's a word haha)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3375 on: August 06, 2020, 10:52:50 PM »
Donald Trump claims Joe Biden is 'against God'

When the most God-less person on the planet calls someone God-less, you have to start wondering just who these Evangelical supporters are.

Quote
Biden, who has often talked about how his Catholic faith helped him survive the death of his first wife and their daughter in a 1972 car crash, described Trump as a hypocrite making a cynical appeal to religious conservatives.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3376 on: August 07, 2020, 04:20:42 AM »

indeed this i what concerns me: being trapped in a society that careens back and forth between extreme authoritarian Presidents to the far right (Trump...what other label is there for a President whose most significant achievement is a tax cut) and the far left (I suppose Obama, as well as whoever comes next).

Obama was "far left"??????

That is a way off centre view of political ideologies.

For the US he was.
For the rest of the world he was finally someone not half-insane.
And then there came Trump. History is a bitch.

Trump has succeeded in making the US Presidency irrelevant in world affairs.  That's possibly the most extraordinary outcome of his term of office.  I'm not sure whether there is any way back from that not just for Trump (there isn't, even if he does get a second term) but for the US Presidency as a whole and for the US position in the world.
I would say that depends on the next president.
If it is Trump again - no. The US will be burned.
If it is someone like Obama, it might be repairable.
Biden? I can't say but from little I know he won't do it.

Generally the world is moving towards a way more unpeaceful place. After the crash of the USSR everyone was busy picking up what was left by it, but that has ended with the banking crisis (or even earlier).
China is doing a "Make China Great Again" - they are no longer competetive on the work cost and have to restructure. That included (thanks to Xi Jiping) a lot more close-bordered approach and "colonies" wherever there are usefuln resources.
Lots of European countries have moved to the right, too.
Add to that the changes from the climate catastrophe and the general population increase in the southern countries, and you can easily see the increasing potential for fights (of whatever sort) happening.

And in all that there will a US that is seen as unreliable and activly damaging international cooperation.
No, you are doomed. 


Quote
The main good thing America still has is a wonderful work ethic
What do you men with "wonderful work ethic"?
Last time I looked most people worked way too much.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3377 on: August 07, 2020, 05:16:03 AM »
Trump has absolutely nothing to say about WHY we should reelect him! He picks on Biden for being Godless, He claims Biden has brain issues, he of course doesn't because he took a test for dementia and could tell the difference between elephants and camels. Outstanding. He lies about the virus and says a vaccine will be available November 3rd without any proof. He has his appointed guy messing with the Post Office to cripple it so vote by mail doesn't happen or happen efficiently. What is this guy offering us but more smoke and mirrors.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3378 on: August 07, 2020, 06:04:26 AM »
Trump has succeeded in making the US Presidency irrelevant in world affairs.  That's possibly the most extraordinary outcome of his term of office.  I'm not sure whether there is any way back from that not just for Trump (there isn't, even if he does get a second term) but for the US Presidency as a whole and for the US position in the world.
I would say that depends on the next president.
If it is Trump again - no. The US will be burned.
If it is someone like Obama, it might be repairable.
Biden? I can't say but from little I know he won't do it.

I remember when the Thatcher/Major regime in the UK changed to the Labour/Blair government there was a sigh of relief in the EU with the idea that the UK/EU relationship would reset.  It never happened, and 20 years later ended with Brexit.  These kinds of shifts in international relationships are hard to turn around.  I agree with you that Biden isn't the man to restore US prestige and soft power, and it is hard to see what could change the current trajectory of increased weakness and isolationism in US international policy.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3379 on: August 07, 2020, 06:12:56 AM »
Trump has succeeded in making the US Presidency irrelevant in world affairs.  That's possibly the most extraordinary outcome of his term of office.  I'm not sure whether there is any way back from that not just for Trump (there isn't, even if he does get a second term) but for the US Presidency as a whole and for the US position in the world.
I would say that depends on the next president.
If it is Trump again - no. The US will be burned.
If it is someone like Obama, it might be repairable.
Biden? I can't say but from little I know he won't do it.

I remember when the Thatcher/Major regime in the UK changed to the Labour/Blair government there was a sigh of relief in the EU with the idea that the UK/EU relationship would reset.  It never happened, and 20 years later ended with Brexit.  These kinds of shifts in international relationships are hard to turn around.  I agree with you that Biden isn't the man to restore US prestige and soft power, and it is hard to see what could change the current trajectory of increased weakness and isolationism in US international policy.

Biden is a stopgap. He’s not going to make things worse, has enough actual relevant experience to hire qualified people to start repairing the Trump damage, and is not offensive enough to middle-aged/elderly white sensibilities to trigger an Obama-level backlash 4 years from now.

He’s not exciting or particularly polarizing, and quite frankly that’s probably okay right now.

(This is assuming that he wins. That’s very far from a sure thing, and we in the US would do well to remember the lessons from 2016 and not get complacent.)

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3380 on: August 07, 2020, 06:43:42 AM »
No matter who succeeds Trump, the American people wear the stain of having elected Trump. The World knows that we designed a society where he could happen. You can blame the electoral college or disinformation or anything you want, but there doesn't seem to be a path to changing the system that gave a man like this such remarkable power.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3381 on: August 07, 2020, 07:11:25 AM »
No matter who succeeds Trump, the American people wear the stain of having elected Trump. The World knows that we designed a society where he could happen. You can blame the electoral college or disinformation or anything you want, but there doesn't seem to be a path to changing the system that gave a man like this such remarkable power.

While we will certainly wear the stains, we're far from the only country to have ~1/3 of the country swept up by someone so vile.  Germany certainly gets top billing, yet somehow has emerged as the most powerful and responsible member of the EU.  Russia's had a couple of mass-murdering nutjobs as well. Spain and Italy have had authoritative regiemes, and Silvio Berlusconi may be one rich old bastard that out Trumps Trump (and was elected 4x). The Brits have plenty to be embarrassed about with Chamberlain, but thankfully responded with  Churchill. Then there's the absolute mess of revolving pseudo-dictators in most countries south of the US.

Trump may do a ton of global damage simply because he heads the world's largest economy and biggest military, and fourth-largest country by population.  But in terms of his actual governing, he's certainly below Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot/Mussolini.  He's probably better than Chile's Pinochet .
IMO history will determine him to be a bumbling, lying politician that had no real grasp of policy or government, which ironically limited how truly damaging he could be. 

I also think (perhaps optimistically) that the GOP will stop worshiping him if/when they lose even more seats in congress and the WH.  Unlike Carter or Bush Sr (both 1-term presidents) who had their legacies somewhat repaired through their simple humanitarianism nature, Trump will go out as unpopular and it will only decline as more and more information about his actions becomes public knowledge in the decades to come.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3382 on: August 07, 2020, 07:37:11 AM »
@Wolfpack Mustachian and @nereo in rebuttal all I'll say is that viewed from the other side "slow progress" through rational discourse and peaceful protest has shown little to no result for at least 2 generations.  And while yes, things are obviously better now than they were 3 generations ago, knowing one is not being treated as badly as ones grand or great grandparents were back in the day, probably doesn't make the systemic racism and discrimination being experienced today seem ok or worth patiently putting up with for however long it takes for the ones perpetuating the injustice to finally decide for themselves to change things.

I wont argue that in a perfect world rational discourse and peaceful protest is the ideal strategy, nor will I argue that burning bibles is at all likely to achieve the result they are looking for, I wont even argue than in a perfect world just putting up with it for however long it takes to affect change and doing nothing to upset those who are perpetuating the discrimination and racism would be best for all concerned. 

My point is only that the act of bible burning may not simply be an unthinking desire to piss people off and escalate the situation for no other reason than to be rude asshats.  What's that old saying?  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  Perhaps those suffering injustice today, who have mostly been doing the same thing, with a few short lived riotous exceptions, for 2 generations, may consider it worth trying a different tactic to patient rational discourse and peaceful protest, which also does not involve mindless violence and destruction, but rather is a calculated expression of anger that gets a rise without causing real damage and is very similar to a well established expression of free speech frequently used in other situations.

Just another framing of the situation for possible consideration is all.

You bring up some good points. I ultimately don't know their intent, but I've seen enough video of people doing stupid stuff (like the stupid white people spitting on black officers I mentioned above) that when I see someone doing something like the Bible thing, I tend to assume the worst. Also, to be frank, it has the general vibe of conservatives doing stuff just to "own the libs" or of people who try to be provocative and do things to the Koran or something intentionally sacrilegious to Muslims just to "show them."

And overall, to nereo's point (I know you didn't argue against this), I strongly agree that nothing productive will come out of things like Bible burning. I feel very comfortable in that perspective, and as such, I will continually call it out for its stupidity and honestly feel like it's productive for the overall movement to do that as long as it's differentiated from the majority of people who don't do that.

What's your opinion on rendering an image of the prophet Mohammed (like in the cartoon that Charlie Hebdo did?)

I think it was a stupid, non-productive thing to do. I think that the response to that cartoon (being violent compared to the general response of people to this instance) does illustrate something about the parties being insulted, but that is peripheral. It was dumb.

So your opinion is that if something you or another person does may offend a religious person, then it's a stupid and non-productive to do?  Does this also apply to things that may offend LGBTQ folks, women, or other minorities?  What about when the above clashes . . . like when a religious person is offended by LGBTQ people existing and speaks about that.  Is the religious person being stupid and non-productive by holding the beliefs of his/her faith, or is the LGBTQ person being stupid and non-productive by openly displaying his/her sexual orientation?

How do you feel about comedians or satire that take aimed at religion, sexual orientation, race, sex, etc.?

I guess I'm asking exactly where you draw the line.  Because it's possible to find someone who's offended at virtually anything that a person says or does . . . and following your advice will naturally have a silencing effect.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3383 on: August 07, 2020, 08:13:42 AM »
No matter who succeeds Trump, the American people wear the stain of having elected Trump. The World knows that we designed a society where he could happen. You can blame the electoral college or disinformation or anything you want, but there doesn't seem to be a path to changing the system that gave a man like this such remarkable power.

While we will certainly wear the stains, we're far from the only country to have ~1/3 of the country swept up by someone so vile.  Germany certainly gets top billing, yet somehow has emerged as the most powerful and responsible member of the EU.  Russia's had a couple of mass-murdering nutjobs as well. Spain and Italy have had authoritative regiemes, and Silvio Berlusconi may be one rich old bastard that out Trumps Trump (and was elected 4x). The Brits have plenty to be embarrassed about with Chamberlain, but thankfully responded with  Churchill. Then there's the absolute mess of revolving pseudo-dictators in most countries south of the US.

Trump may do a ton of global damage simply because he heads the world's largest economy and biggest military, and fourth-largest country by population.  But in terms of his actual governing, he's certainly below Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot/Mussolini.  He's probably better than Chile's Pinochet .
IMO history will determine him to be a bumbling, lying politician that had no real grasp of policy or government, which ironically limited how truly damaging he could be. 

I also think (perhaps optimistically) that the GOP will stop worshiping him if/when they lose even more seats in congress and the WH.  Unlike Carter or Bush Sr (both 1-term presidents) who had their legacies somewhat repaired through their simple humanitarianism nature, Trump will go out as unpopular and it will only decline as more and more information about his actions becomes public knowledge in the decades to come.

That Berlusconi is the best-case scenario should say something right there. Writing the history of Trump has to include the humanitarian crisis we have right now, whether it's ultimately fair to blame him for some of the 150,000 deaths and 30 million jobs lost or not.

What's interesting to me is the extent to which society has been fractured. Even though Trump (as a potential ex-President) will be unpopular in aggregate, he will have millions of people who will insist he worked for their benefit.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3384 on: August 07, 2020, 08:54:14 AM »

What's interesting to me is the extent to which society has been fractured. Even though Trump (as a potential ex-President) will be unpopular in aggregate, he will have millions of people who will insist he worked for their benefit.

According to at least one poll, about 14% of people still belive that Nixon "did nothing wrong" and believe he was a great president.

Trump has had a ceiling of around 32% of adults who "strongly support" him (the remained to get to his typical 42% approval rating are lackluster supporters).  This is just a blind guess but I think in five years this will dwindle to the low 20s who still think he was a 'great president*'.


*History can be funny on how people review politicians.  A know a stanch republican that recently admitted that "Bill Clinton was actually pretty ok  Shocked that he would ever say such a think about a Democrat, he responded with a chuckle; "we made a shit-ton of money during the Clinton years.  For all his faults we did very well under his presidency".
How long the economic impact of this pandemic lasts might color many people's views of Trump in the decades to come.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3385 on: August 07, 2020, 09:56:51 AM »
Bill Clinton presided over a growing economy, a balanced budget, and crime and welfare reform. Despite all of these, he also created a personal scandal so juicy yet so unnecessary, and it made it practically impossible for Democrats to retain power without him, to say nothing of the maelstrom of mismanagement during his first two years that enabled Republicans to take control of Congress for more than a decade.

I ordered them in increasing desirability to Republicans. Acquiring the power was always the goal, and Clinton couldn't have made it easier.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3386 on: August 07, 2020, 10:20:14 AM »
Clinton didn't just preside over a balanced budget - his was the last presidency where there was a sizable surplus.  In fact, there was some concern among economists about the impacts of running a surplus, particularly if it resulted in a zero $ national debt.  Some lazy extrapolations suggested this could happen midway through the next President's term.

Of course 9/11 happened, and Iraq II/Afganistan, then the great recession, and now Covid... and now it seems oddly quaint that we were ever worried about the impacts of having no debt, with our current one standing at more than $24T (it was $5.6T and falling fast when 'W' came into office).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3387 on: August 07, 2020, 04:18:16 PM »
@Wolfpack Mustachian and @nereo in rebuttal all I'll say is that viewed from the other side "slow progress" through rational discourse and peaceful protest has shown little to no result for at least 2 generations.  And while yes, things are obviously better now than they were 3 generations ago, knowing one is not being treated as badly as ones grand or great grandparents were back in the day, probably doesn't make the systemic racism and discrimination being experienced today seem ok or worth patiently putting up with for however long it takes for the ones perpetuating the injustice to finally decide for themselves to change things.

I wont argue that in a perfect world rational discourse and peaceful protest is the ideal strategy, nor will I argue that burning bibles is at all likely to achieve the result they are looking for, I wont even argue than in a perfect world just putting up with it for however long it takes to affect change and doing nothing to upset those who are perpetuating the discrimination and racism would be best for all concerned. 

My point is only that the act of bible burning may not simply be an unthinking desire to piss people off and escalate the situation for no other reason than to be rude asshats.  What's that old saying?  "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".  Perhaps those suffering injustice today, who have mostly been doing the same thing, with a few short lived riotous exceptions, for 2 generations, may consider it worth trying a different tactic to patient rational discourse and peaceful protest, which also does not involve mindless violence and destruction, but rather is a calculated expression of anger that gets a rise without causing real damage and is very similar to a well established expression of free speech frequently used in other situations.

Just another framing of the situation for possible consideration is all.

You bring up some good points. I ultimately don't know their intent, but I've seen enough video of people doing stupid stuff (like the stupid white people spitting on black officers I mentioned above) that when I see someone doing something like the Bible thing, I tend to assume the worst. Also, to be frank, it has the general vibe of conservatives doing stuff just to "own the libs" or of people who try to be provocative and do things to the Koran or something intentionally sacrilegious to Muslims just to "show them."

And overall, to nereo's point (I know you didn't argue against this), I strongly agree that nothing productive will come out of things like Bible burning. I feel very comfortable in that perspective, and as such, I will continually call it out for its stupidity and honestly feel like it's productive for the overall movement to do that as long as it's differentiated from the majority of people who don't do that.

What's your opinion on rendering an image of the prophet Mohammed (like in the cartoon that Charlie Hebdo did?)

I think it was a stupid, non-productive thing to do. I think that the response to that cartoon (being violent compared to the general response of people to this instance) does illustrate something about the parties being insulted, but that is peripheral. It was dumb.

So your opinion is that if something you or another person does may offend a religious person, then it's a stupid and non-productive to do?  Does this also apply to things that may offend LGBTQ folks, women, or other minorities?  What about when the above clashes . . . like when a religious person is offended by LGBTQ people existing and speaks about that.  Is the religious person being stupid and non-productive by holding the beliefs of his/her faith, or is the LGBTQ person being stupid and non-productive by openly displaying his/her sexual orientation?

How do you feel about comedians or satire that take aimed at religion, sexual orientation, race, sex, etc.?

I guess I'm asking exactly where you draw the line.  Because it's possible to find someone who's offended at virtually anything that a person says or does . . . and following your advice will naturally have a silencing effect.

That's a bit of a leap from those two examples I gave (Bible burning and drawing Mohammed's face) to me thinking that if someone does something that may offend a religious person overall that it's stupid and non-productive. Those are two extreme examples. I'm also not talking about belief specifically. Everyone has beliefs that a decent swathe of the population find offensive. I'm talking about items of action that are extremely egregious to that person. To your LGBTQ example, I would give maybe calling a trans person by their dead name intentionally over and over again might be similar *shrugs*.

I can't really give you a hard and fast line, but I do think it's not really that hard to convey the general idea. The Greeks sacrificed a pig on the Jewish altar way back. I wouldn't draw a face on Mohammed or kill a cow right in front of a Hindu. Whether you feel that way about religion or not, it and the text is pretty important to a lot of people. Burning the text that the religion feels is sacred is a stupid thing to do - it's going to shut conversation down, alienate even moderate people, etc. Sure, there are plenty of religious people and plenty of non religious people that are easily offended. You can't please everyone, but again, there's at least a handful of things like I've mentioned that are above and beyond. As for comedians, it would depend on what they were making fun of. Just because you get people to laugh at something doesn't mean it's productive or not a stupid thing to do.

To give another example, let's say your mom taught you something that was a dumb thing. I wouldn't begin our conversation about how you need to improve in a certain area with how dumb your mom was even if there was a peripheral connection between the two. That would be stupid and non-productive.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3388 on: August 07, 2020, 04:53:52 PM »
Just in case the pandemic wasn't bad enough, the government is also incapable of negotiating a compromise for further economic support.  This should be one of their most basic functions, yet they failed.  Putting executive orders out is dead on arrival - if the President can wield the power of the purse then Congress would be neutered.

Quote
House negotiators Mark Meadows and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin say they are recommending President Donald Trump move ahead with a series of executive orders aimed at extending the federal moratorium on evictions, continuing federal unemployment benefits and suspending the payroll tax.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a tactic to make it look like Republicans are doing something while knowing full well that it is DOA.

Norioch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3389 on: August 08, 2020, 01:55:38 AM »
A very useful resource for opposing Trump:

https://trumpresearchbook.com/

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3390 on: August 08, 2020, 01:43:22 PM »

Norioch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3391 on: August 08, 2020, 04:18:36 PM »
Throw it on the pile.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3392 on: August 08, 2020, 05:02:00 PM »
Just in case the pandemic wasn't bad enough, the government is also incapable of negotiating a compromise for further economic support.  This should be one of their most basic functions, yet they failed.  Putting executive orders out is dead on arrival - if the President can wield the power of the purse then Congress would be neutered.

Quote
House negotiators Mark Meadows and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin say they are recommending President Donald Trump move ahead with a series of executive orders aimed at extending the federal moratorium on evictions, continuing federal unemployment benefits and suspending the payroll tax.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a tactic to make it look like Republicans are doing something while knowing full well that it is DOA.

So Trump did issue these EOs.

If any are followed, like the Treasury issuing $300 for unemployment or ignoring taxes, then we are truly in a Roman Republic/Empire transition.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3393 on: August 08, 2020, 05:16:10 PM »
So much for the rule of law.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3394 on: August 08, 2020, 06:23:19 PM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3395 on: August 08, 2020, 06:56:35 PM »
Grift or spite, or some combination thereof.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3396 on: August 08, 2020, 07:26:10 PM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?

He was elected on the belief that NAFTA is a national security threat, and that crowd of supporters still believe in him.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3397 on: August 08, 2020, 10:42:44 PM »
Just in case the pandemic wasn't bad enough, the government is also incapable of negotiating a compromise for further economic support.  This should be one of their most basic functions, yet they failed.  Putting executive orders out is dead on arrival - if the President can wield the power of the purse then Congress would be neutered.

Quote
House negotiators Mark Meadows and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin say they are recommending President Donald Trump move ahead with a series of executive orders aimed at extending the federal moratorium on evictions, continuing federal unemployment benefits and suspending the payroll tax.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a tactic to make it look like Republicans are doing something while knowing full well that it is DOA.

So Trump did issue these EOs.

If any are followed, like the Treasury issuing $300 for unemployment or ignoring taxes, then we are truly in a Roman Republic/Empire transition.

Trump has managed to take incredibly large and pressing problems and metastasize them into a colossal cluster f*#$.   This series of four executive orders are going to bog down in lawsuits and funding fiascoes, thus sucking away precious time and energy Congress needs to actually address real problems.  The courts are going to be kicking this up and down the court system until November at least.  Turning real issues in to politics - only a genius could come up with such a brilliant strategy!

For all those folks that hoped their eviction issues would go away for a while, student loan payments would be deferred, folks that depend on enhanced unemployment, and folks that think they are getting a break on payroll taxes - strap in for a bumpy ride...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3398 on: August 09, 2020, 01:12:03 AM »
I know it's a lesser outrage . . . but WTF are you American's slapping tariffs on our Aluminum for?  Trump says that it's essential for US national security, just like last time he randomly did this.  Is it purely a distraction, or did the President buy a new aluminum mill or something?
He probably thinks US aluminium factories need to sell more of the stuff to create jobs.

Like with Nord Stream II - the natural gas pipeline between Russia and Germany, where the US has enacted sanctions on the companies working there (yes, including those from Germany), because the pipeline would make it very hard to sell liquified gas from US production. (Or simply because he hates fact-reasoning Merkel and jumps on every possibility to hurt her.)

German politics is... ahem, Not Amused. Even those who were (and are) against building Nord Stream 2 in the first place (like the greens) see it is a big affront.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3399 on: August 09, 2020, 01:40:46 AM »
Just in case the pandemic wasn't bad enough, the government is also incapable of negotiating a compromise for further economic support.  This should be one of their most basic functions, yet they failed.  Putting executive orders out is dead on arrival - if the President can wield the power of the purse then Congress would be neutered.

Quote
House negotiators Mark Meadows and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin say they are recommending President Donald Trump move ahead with a series of executive orders aimed at extending the federal moratorium on evictions, continuing federal unemployment benefits and suspending the payroll tax.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a tactic to make it look like Republicans are doing something while knowing full well that it is DOA.

So Trump did issue these EOs.

If any are followed, like the Treasury issuing $300 for unemployment or ignoring taxes, then we are truly in a Roman Republic/Empire transition.

Trump has managed to take incredibly large and pressing problems and metastasize them into a colossal cluster f*#$.   This series of four executive orders are going to bog down in lawsuits and funding fiascoes, thus sucking away precious time and energy Congress needs to actually address real problems.  The courts are going to be kicking this up and down the court system until November at least.  Turning real issues in to politics - only a genius could come up with such a brilliant strategy!

For all those folks that hoped their eviction issues would go away for a while, student loan payments would be deferred, folks that depend on enhanced unemployment, and folks that think they are getting a break on payroll taxes - strap in for a bumpy ride...

We may have finally arrived at the 'Emperor has no clothes' moment for Trump.  The tipping point, which Trump keeps moving toward like a moth to a flame, will ultimately come where, even if Republicans really want to believe Trump is Making America Great Again, the reality of pervasive debt, death, and international ridicule is too much to overcome on even a daily basis...