Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 303017 times)

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2662
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3250 on: August 03, 2020, 01:17:30 PM »

 I think some of the things people are doing to protest are stupid/poorly conceived. It doesn't offend me per se that they're burning Bibles. By this, I mean that I don't have a visceral reaction to them doing it (but do think it's a really bad idea that presents poorly on the movement as a whole, will cause trouble, and is a symptom of protestors just doing whatever they feel like in a selfish way).

I do not know what motivates some of the demonstrators to burn Bibles.

For some of them, and some members of BLM and their supporters,   is there a nexus between the Bible, the word of God  that constitutes the holy scripture  of Christianity, and longstanding, institutionalized, Christian oppression of blacks?

I surmise there is.


Loving v. Virginia (1967)


In June 1958, two residents of Virginia, Mildred Jeter, a Negro woman, and Richard Loving, a white man, were married in the District of Columbia pursuant to its laws. Shortly after their marriage, the Lovings returned to Virginia and established their marital abode in Caroline County.

At the October Term, 1958, of the Circuit Court of Caroline County, a grand jury issued an indictment charging the Lovings with violating Virginia's ban on interracial marriages.

On January 6, 1959, the Lovings pleaded guilty to the charge and were sentenced to one year in jail; however, the trial judge suspended the sentence for a period of 25 years on the condition that the Lovings leave the State and not return to Virginia together for 25 years. He stated in an opinion that:


'Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.'

Plus the long tradition of using the Bible to support southern slavery. There are many references on this, but this is just the first link in the Google list:
https://time.com/5171819/christianity-slavery-book-excerpt/

It takes a pretty siloed read to go from the sermon on the mount to slavery as practiced in the south, even if you did consider other races to somehow be inferior.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16600
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3251 on: August 03, 2020, 01:20:19 PM »

 I think some of the things people are doing to protest are stupid/poorly conceived. It doesn't offend me per se that they're burning Bibles. By this, I mean that I don't have a visceral reaction to them doing it (but do think it's a really bad idea that presents poorly on the movement as a whole, will cause trouble, and is a symptom of protestors just doing whatever they feel like in a selfish way).

I do not know what motivates some of the demonstrators to burn Bibles.

For some of them, and some members of BLM and their supporters,   is there a nexus between the Bible, the word of God  that constitutes the holy scripture  of Christianity, and longstanding, institutionalized, Christian oppression of blacks?

I surmise there is.


Loving v. Virginia (1967)


In June 1958, two residents of Virginia, Mildred Jeter, a Negro woman, and Richard Loving, a white man, were married in the District of Columbia pursuant to its laws. Shortly after their marriage, the Lovings returned to Virginia and established their marital abode in Caroline County.

At the October Term, 1958, of the Circuit Court of Caroline County, a grand jury issued an indictment charging the Lovings with violating Virginia's ban on interracial marriages.

On January 6, 1959, the Lovings pleaded guilty to the charge and were sentenced to one year in jail; however, the trial judge suspended the sentence for a period of 25 years on the condition that the Lovings leave the State and not return to Virginia together for 25 years. He stated in an opinion that:


'Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.'


The bible is also extremely unambiguously pro-slavery in it's message.  Interestingly, the pro slavery part is much more clearly spelled out than the anti-gay part.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13536
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3252 on: August 03, 2020, 01:21:09 PM »
Trump is now arguing that only ballots that have been counted by election day should count towards the election.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/31/trump-just-told-us-how-mail-delays-could-help-him-corrupt-election/

This is happening. He is 100% sabotaging mail delivery so mail-in ballots get sent out late and can't be returned in time. He's going to declare victory on November 3 with millions of ballots uncounted, and he'll argue all the way to the Supreme Court that those remaining ballots never should be counted. SCOTUS already let this happen in the Wisconsin primary so they're very likely to let it happen again. We're about to have an illegitimate election.

I wonder - if on election day he's behind in the polls with several million mail-in ballots not yet counted whether he'll insist that every last ballot be considered?
Hmmm...

Worth noting that these attacks on mail-in ballots might actually hurt Republicans, who are on a whole older and more rural. After being made skeptical of mail-in ballots by POTUS, if on election night they are in a virus hot-spot, or if the weather is nasty, or if some other event happens they might not vote.  Dems on the other hand will have voted weeks earlier, via mail-in ballots.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3253 on: August 03, 2020, 01:21:48 PM »


Or it’s a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.


Hear, hear!

No matter who authored the book, or whether the author or book is beloved or reviled, the burning of  the book is quintessential symbolic speech that is protected under the First Amendment's Free Speech Clause.

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3254 on: August 03, 2020, 01:23:07 PM »
When he argues that those remaining ballots shouldn't be counted, and SCOTUS agrees with him on party lines, those ballots will literally never even be COUNTED. They'll be destroyed unopened. We will never be allowed to see what the real vote numbers were.

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3255 on: August 03, 2020, 01:25:53 PM »
If you get a ballot in the mail, and your state lets you drop the ballot off in person (rather than mailing it back), then drop it off in person, as soon as possible. Don't trust mail delivery to get the filled-in ballot back in time. There's also a significant chance that many people just won't even receive a ballot by election day. If that happens, then vote in person. Get your vote counted no matter what it takes.

turketron

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 585
  • Age: 34
  • Location: WI
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3256 on: August 03, 2020, 01:28:59 PM »
Worth noting that these attacks on mail-in ballots might actually hurt Republicans, who are on a whole older and more rural. After being made skeptical of mail-in ballots by POTUS, if on election night they are in a virus hot-spot, or if the weather is nasty, or if some other event happens they might not vote.  Dems on the other hand will have voted weeks earlier, via mail-in ballots.

That seems to already be happening here in WI: https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/25/republicans-have-donald-trump-problem-they-push-mail-voting-base/5452373002/

OtherJen

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3602
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3257 on: August 03, 2020, 01:31:31 PM »
Trump is now arguing that only ballots that have been counted by election day should count towards the election.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/31/trump-just-told-us-how-mail-delays-could-help-him-corrupt-election/

This is happening. He is 100% sabotaging mail delivery so mail-in ballots get sent out late and can't be returned in time. He's going to declare victory on November 3 with millions of ballots uncounted, and he'll argue all the way to the Supreme Court that those remaining ballots never should be counted. SCOTUS already let this happen in the Wisconsin primary so they're very likely to let it happen again. We're about to have an illegitimate election.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

This fall, unless you have no other option, drop your ballot applications and absentee ballots off in person. We've now been waiting 2 weeks for a prescription medication. It sat in a USPS distribution center in Vegas for more than a week. It arrived in Detroit on Saturday. We got no real mail today, but we got a mailbox full of the flyers and junk mail that usually comes on Tuesday. I suspect the mail will go back to normal speed later this week and then slow down again in October, when people start mailing back their ballots.

I am so fucking sick of this bullshit. I'm not sure if the predictability of it makes it better or worse.

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3258 on: August 03, 2020, 01:32:15 PM »
Donald Trump's Postmaster General is selectively closing post offices, and he'll only close the post offices in Democratic areas and leave the Republican areas running smoothly. Trump and his administration are completely shameless and blatant. Given that they've faced zero consequences for anything they've done so far, why wouldn't they be?

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13915
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3259 on: August 03, 2020, 02:37:16 PM »
Strange as it sounds, the US needs a UN supervised election.  Not that it would ever happen.  An American blogger wrote a few months ago that her country has become a failed state.  At the time I thought she was exaggerating.  Now? Not so sure.

Wolfpack Mustachian

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 744
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3260 on: August 03, 2020, 04:48:01 PM »
It's rotated, but aren't they still elected? From my brief research, it seems they do have to rotate and have certain restrictions on the geographic location of members to ensure a fair distribution, but they still have to be voted in - i.e. some members with especially egregious records could be excluded. Am I wrong on this count?
I don't know. Probably. But a seat in the UN is a prestige project, especially for tyrants. Means that same (election) mechanic makes sure that seats are not given by moral worthiness but by trade worthiness.
You vote me in you get a trade deal.

I agree 100% with your concept that it's up to us as to whether or not we get angry or not. However, it's interesting people often bring this up when it's people on the other side that's getting angry and we're talking about how they should be the rational about it.

That is certainly true. But generally there is small but distinctive difference between the anger reasons.

Take the bible and I think I took "rolling coal"?

There is always the possibility that burning bibles may change something to the better. I admit it is a very strange dimension where that happens, but it is not impossible. At the same time it is a purely subjective thing the conflict is about.

But if you "roll coal" there is zero chance that climate change will go away. In fact you make it worse. It is an objectivly never-good thing that also negativly affects everyone, including the coaler. There is nothing subjective about the climate getting worse.


Quote
the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.
Oh really? Religious idiocy really knows no bounds!

Quote
Terrible as the Twilight books might be, they turned my reluctant reader pre-teen into a voracious reader, who quickly moved beyond them.  So I have a soft spot for them.
You need to get them hooked with the easy drugs, old dealer wisdom.

There are some differences between rolling coal and burning a Bible, certainly. Both, however, are very similar in that they aren't really done to change minds..they're done to piss people off and offend. Burning Bibles is extremely similar to 95% of what Trump does in that there's almost certainly no substance behind it (they're not presenting a message, they're acting out like a spoiled kid), and it's done to energize your base and piss off the opposition, just because you can.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3261 on: August 03, 2020, 05:09:50 PM »
If you get a ballot in the mail, and your state lets you drop the ballot off in person (rather than mailing it back), then drop it off in person, as soon as possible. Don't trust mail delivery to get the filled-in ballot back in time. There's also a significant chance that many people just won't even receive a ballot by election day. If that happens, then vote in person. Get your vote counted no matter what it takes.

This!!!    Get the voters out.   Don't let anyone suppress your vote.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13536
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3262 on: August 03, 2020, 05:22:47 PM »
www.vote.org

Vote.org uses technology to simplify political engagement, increase voter turnout, and strengthen American democracy

In under 2 minutes a person can
  • verify that they are registered to vote in the appropriate location (and haven't been purged from the voter roles). 
  • register to vote online.
  • request an absentee ballot (provided you are one of the 77% of Americans who lives in a state that provides absentee ballots).
  • look up your polling location.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3263 on: August 03, 2020, 05:28:55 PM »


Or it’s a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.


Hear, hear!

No matter who authored the book, or whether the author or book is beloved or reviled, the burning of  the book is quintessential symbolic speech that is protected under the First Amendment's Free Speech Clause.

How about burning the US flag?    I'm pretty sure this is a sensitive one.     Is that considered free speech?

MudPuppy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 561
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3264 on: August 03, 2020, 05:33:27 PM »
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 05:35:31 PM by MudPuppy »

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2650
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3265 on: August 03, 2020, 06:15:32 PM »
www.vote.org

Vote.org uses technology to simplify political engagement, increase voter turnout, and strengthen American democracy

In under 2 minutes a person can
  • verify that they are registered to vote in the appropriate location (and haven't been purged from the voter roles). 
  • register to vote online.
  • request an absentee ballot (provided you are one of the 77% of Americans who lives in a state that provides absentee ballots).
  • look up your polling location.

That's disturbing.  I've voted in every election in the same place for the past 20 years, with the same address and name, and that site says I'm not registered.  I'm holding my voter registration card in my hand.

MudPuppy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 561
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3266 on: August 03, 2020, 06:17:24 PM »
I think some states don’t have good logs.

OtherJen

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3602
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3267 on: August 03, 2020, 06:21:49 PM »
www.vote.org

Vote.org uses technology to simplify political engagement, increase voter turnout, and strengthen American democracy

In under 2 minutes a person can
  • verify that they are registered to vote in the appropriate location (and haven't been purged from the voter roles). 
  • register to vote online.
  • request an absentee ballot (provided you are one of the 77% of Americans who lives in a state that provides absentee ballots).
  • look up your polling location.

That's disturbing.  I've voted in every election in the same place for the past 20 years, with the same address and name, and that site says I'm not registered.  I'm holding my voter registration card in my hand.

Check with your state’s government. Your Secretary of State may have a website where you can look that up.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5004
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3268 on: August 03, 2020, 06:29:28 PM »
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-have-been-38-statewide-elections-during-the-pandemic-heres-how-they-went/

Most states have seen an increase in mail-in voting. Wyoming and Kansas are now 100%, as are Montana and Idaho (all solid Trump states). Unless the postal service slow-downs are selective, it doesn't help Trump at all to hinder mail in voting.

Even with the fuck-ups in Wisconsin, when a lot of the polling stations in Milwaukee were closed, Karofsky still won over an incumbent Republican judge.

Trump and team will have to pull a LOT of rabbits out of the hat to win this election.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2650
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3269 on: August 03, 2020, 06:32:54 PM »
www.vote.org

Vote.org uses technology to simplify political engagement, increase voter turnout, and strengthen American democracy

In under 2 minutes a person can
  • verify that they are registered to vote in the appropriate location (and haven't been purged from the voter roles). 
  • register to vote online.
  • request an absentee ballot (provided you are one of the 77% of Americans who lives in a state that provides absentee ballots).
  • look up your polling location.

That's disturbing.  I've voted in every election in the same place for the past 20 years, with the same address and name, and that site says I'm not registered.  I'm holding my voter registration card in my hand.

Check with your state’s government. Your Secretary of State may have a website where you can look that up.

Yeah, I also checked our state site.  They also couldn't look me up by name (even trying several permutations of my name), but they found me by voter id number.

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3270 on: August 03, 2020, 06:39:05 PM »
Unless the postal service slow-downs are selective, it doesn't help Trump at all to hinder mail in voting.

The slow-downs will be selective. Trump's Postmaster General will shut down post offices in blue areas and leave ones in red areas open and fully-staffed. This administration is shameless and blatant, because they get away with it. Put nothing past them.

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3271 on: August 03, 2020, 08:54:59 PM »


https://emersonpolling.reportablenews.com/pr/july-national-poll-biden-maintains-lead-in-presidential-race-majority-support-nationwide-mask-mandate-in-public-spaces

This is why Trump opposes vote by mail. He doesn't need to be selective in his slowdown of the mail to rig the election in his favor (though I expect he will anyway).

js82

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 469
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3272 on: August 03, 2020, 09:02:28 PM »
When he argues that those remaining ballots shouldn't be counted, and SCOTUS agrees with him on party lines, those ballots will literally never even be COUNTED. They'll be destroyed unopened. We will never be allowed to see what the real vote numbers were.

While I disagree with John Roberts' views on a lot of things, I suspect that he, and possibly Neil Gorsuch would have a hard time justifying votes legally cast before election day in a federal election not being counted.

Kavanaugh, Alito, and possibly Thomas, sure.  But Roberts and Gorsuch have given plenty of indications that they still have integrity and care about their institution and their country over simple partisan agendas.

I don't think that Roberts and Gorsuch are the kind of simplistic partisans that conservatives crave and liberals fear.

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3273 on: August 03, 2020, 09:11:05 PM »
SCOTUS already showed their hand in the Wisconsin primary. I trust them as far as I can throw them.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/07/liberals-recoil-at-supreme-court-decision-on-wisconsin-primary-171347

PKFFW

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 556
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3274 on: August 03, 2020, 11:09:45 PM »
There are some differences between rolling coal and burning a Bible, certainly. Both, however, are very similar in that they aren't really done to change minds..they're done to piss people off and offend. Burning Bibles is extremely similar to 95% of what Trump does in that there's almost certainly no substance behind it (they're not presenting a message, they're acting out like a spoiled kid), and it's done to energize your base and piss off the opposition, just because you can.
I think you are missing a key difference between the bible burners and your "spoiled child" example.

The spoiled child has not tried many other methods to get the message across (taking a knee, rational discourse, peaceful protests for literally generations, social activism, etc) and failed to be taken notice of.

Perhaps after generations of systemic racism and discrimination with little sign of any true willingness to address the problem, bible burning as an expression of fuck you is actually a considered tactic to gain attention.  Soft of like the "all publicity is good publicity, even negative publicity" idea.

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3275 on: August 04, 2020, 03:58:19 AM »
Mein kampf is a clear candidate. The writing is terrible; incredibly boring, and with sentences that barely make sense. It, and a book from the 1930's based on the conspiracy theories in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are some of the worst literature I've ever read. The content and history of both were also terrible, of course. But based on the literary quality I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could read that shit and become a convinced nazi.

I always thought that one had to read (and understand) a book in its native language to evaluate it.  Since my German is limited to a few (mostly dirty) phrases all I can personally say about it is how horrible the author was.
For those that speak German (@LennStar ?) is the book really that poorly written?

I haven't read it and I don't intend to read Hitler's ramblings. I know he was a clumsy writer (as most people are without a lot of experience), but I guess if you like his speeches his writing is likeable for you too. (btw. Hitler trained his speeches in the mirror. All of his gestures were trained und honed.)

That aside you could not buy the book legally in Germany until a few years ago.
The Bavarian government used a legal trick and "protected" it under copyright. And today the legal status is heated. It is indexed, means it cannot be sold to under 18. At the same time some argue selling the book would be illegal (I short the legal concept to "hate speech" for you), while others say that as an old document you cannot even apply that law.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3188
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3276 on: August 04, 2020, 05:12:18 AM »
Nevada makes a law giving everyone a mail-in ballot.

Trump: I've hated the USPS since my inauguration and I've been undermining it for three years.

Also Trump: The post office can't handle that much mail! It's biased against Republicans (for some reason).


talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3896
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3277 on: August 04, 2020, 09:05:54 AM »
Looks like some inspectors general are now freed up to look at this USPS tampering: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/03/doj-fbi-review-of-surveillance-applications-finds-almost-all-errors-are-minor-391101

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13536
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3278 on: August 04, 2020, 09:31:31 AM »
Voter registration ought to be the default for all adults in our country, and it should be rare for any eligible voter NOT to be registered.

There are numerous ways this could be achieved, including automatic registration through DMV, tax filing, I-9 forms, etc.  The Swedes already do this.

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3896
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3279 on: August 04, 2020, 09:40:43 AM »
Part of me wonders if I could contrive barriers to the people in my personal life who I know will probably vote against me. Whenever I contemplate this, I make myself take a deep breath, gulp, and remind myself that the world in which more people can vote is better. And I always tell them "thank you for your [deplorable] vote". Leading by example requires this.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13915
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3280 on: August 04, 2020, 10:00:33 AM »
Voter registration ought to be the default for all adults in our country, and it should be rare for any eligible voter NOT to be registered.

There are numerous ways this could be achieved, including automatic registration through DMV, tax filing, I-9 forms, etc.  The Swedes already do this.

Canada also has 2 boxes to tick on federal income tax forms, one that you are a Canadian citizen and one that you authorize your information being given to Elections Canada for voter registration.  I couldn't find how many Canadians don't file taxes, but based on population numbers and filing numbers, the vast majority do.  Filing tax forms is very important for low income earners because of tax credits and benefits, so most of them do file.  Elections Canada works hard to get people registered, know they are on the list, where they will vote, and what to do if you can't vote on Election day.  Canada's biggest election issue is apathy = low voter turnout.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3203
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3281 on: August 04, 2020, 10:05:37 AM »
Part of me wonders if I could contrive barriers to the people in my personal life who I know will probably vote against me. Whenever I contemplate this, I make myself take a deep breath, gulp, and remind myself that the world in which more people can vote is better. And I always tell them "thank you for your [deplorable] vote". Leading by example requires this.

Such an odd comment on so many levels, but thanks for sharing.  First, I have no idea how people around me vote.  I'm pretty sure of the Trump supporters since they seem to bristle when I speak my mind, but for the most part, who they voted for and who they are going to vote for never is explicit. 

This whole 'deplorables' thing has been overblown in my opinion.  Worked well as a gambit in 2016 - calling disenfranchised Americans deplorable brought them to the voting booth last time, only to be crushed under Trump's boot for the next 4 years.  If they like they way things are going, then I fully understand that they would vote for Trump again, but if they want change then they know where Trump is going to take the country in 4 more years - more pandemic, more drama, more isolation, more structural unemployment and debt....


nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13536
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3282 on: August 04, 2020, 10:52:36 AM »
Part of me wonders if I could contrive barriers to the people in my personal life who I know will probably vote against me. Whenever I contemplate this, I make myself take a deep breath, gulp, and remind myself that the world in which more people can vote is better. And I always tell them "thank you for your [deplorable] vote". Leading by example requires this.

Such an odd comment on so many levels, but thanks for sharing.  First, I have no idea how people around me vote.  I'm pretty sure of the Trump supporters since they seem to bristle when I speak my mind, but for the most part, who they voted for and who they are going to vote for never is explicit. 

This whole 'deplorables' thing has been overblown in my opinion.  Worked well as a gambit in 2016 - calling disenfranchised Americans deplorable brought them to the voting booth last time, only to be crushed under Trump's boot for the next 4 years.  If they like they way things are going, then I fully understand that they would vote for Trump again, but if they want change then they know where Trump is going to take the country in 4 more years - more pandemic, more drama, more isolation, more structural unemployment and debt....

One interesting side-bit in response to Trump voters "knowing" where he will take the country if re-elected...  some new polling data came out yesterday which shows how differently (and more favorably to Trump) voters who supported him in 2016 view the federal response to the pandemic, the economic outlook and Trump's efficacy in general.  Whereas a majority of hte country views the federal response to the pandemic negatively, 71% of Trump supporters view his repsonse either "very favorably" or "somewhat favorably". 

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3283 on: August 04, 2020, 11:03:38 AM »
Part of me wonders if I could contrive barriers to the people in my personal life who I know will probably vote against me. Whenever I contemplate this, I make myself take a deep breath, gulp, and remind myself that the world in which more people can vote is better. And I always tell them "thank you for your [deplorable] vote". Leading by example requires this.

Such an odd comment on so many levels, but thanks for sharing.  First, I have no idea how people around me vote.  I'm pretty sure of the Trump supporters since they seem to bristle when I speak my mind, but for the most part, who they voted for and who they are going to vote for never is explicit. 

This whole 'deplorables' thing has been overblown in my opinion.  Worked well as a gambit in 2016 - calling disenfranchised Americans deplorable brought them to the voting booth last time, only to be crushed under Trump's boot for the next 4 years.  If they like they way things are going, then I fully understand that they would vote for Trump again, but if they want change then they know where Trump is going to take the country in 4 more years - more pandemic, more drama, more isolation, more structural unemployment and debt....

One interesting side-bit in response to Trump voters "knowing" where he will take the country if re-elected...  some new polling data came out yesterday which shows how differently (and more favorably to Trump) voters who supported him in 2016 view the federal response to the pandemic, the economic outlook and Trump's efficacy in general.  Whereas a majority of hte country views the federal response to the pandemic negatively, 71% of Trump supporters view his repsonse either "very favorably" or "somewhat favorably".
Probably the same people who would say they would never fall for a TV ad and how laughingly stupid Russian people must have been if they believed the easily to prove wrong propaganda.

If all your information comes from your leader...

And of course, if they acknoledge that Trump has "caused" 100'000 death, then they would also have to admit that it was their decision to vote for him that made it possible.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16600
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3284 on: August 04, 2020, 11:25:37 AM »
Part of me wonders if I could contrive barriers to the people in my personal life who I know will probably vote against me. Whenever I contemplate this, I make myself take a deep breath, gulp, and remind myself that the world in which more people can vote is better. And I always tell them "thank you for your [deplorable] vote". Leading by example requires this.

Such an odd comment on so many levels, but thanks for sharing.  First, I have no idea how people around me vote.  I'm pretty sure of the Trump supporters since they seem to bristle when I speak my mind, but for the most part, who they voted for and who they are going to vote for never is explicit. 

This whole 'deplorables' thing has been overblown in my opinion.  Worked well as a gambit in 2016 - calling disenfranchised Americans deplorable brought them to the voting booth last time, only to be crushed under Trump's boot for the next 4 years.  If they like they way things are going, then I fully understand that they would vote for Trump again, but if they want change then they know where Trump is going to take the country in 4 more years - more pandemic, more drama, more isolation, more structural unemployment and debt....

One interesting side-bit in response to Trump voters "knowing" where he will take the country if re-elected...  some new polling data came out yesterday which shows how differently (and more favorably to Trump) voters who supported him in 2016 view the federal response to the pandemic, the economic outlook and Trump's efficacy in general.  Whereas a majority of hte country views the federal response to the pandemic negatively, 71% of Trump supporters view his repsonse either "very favorably" or "somewhat favorably".
Probably the same people who would say they would never fall for a TV ad and how laughingly stupid Russian people must have been if they believed the easily to prove wrong propaganda.

If all your information comes from your leader...

And of course, if they acknoledge that Trump has "caused" 100'000 death, then they would also have to admit that it was their decision to vote for him that made it possible.

To be fair, Trump didn't cause 100k + deaths.  Coronavirus did.  Trump just ensured that the virus would do maximum damage by eroding existing plans and response units that were in place, publicly questioning the need for doing anything, and then making up his own "alternative facts" about the virus/treatment plans/mask wearing.  Trump isn't the bank robber, he's the guy who drove the bank robber to the bank and then helped the robber speed away before the cops got too close.

Roadrunner53

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2820
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3285 on: August 04, 2020, 12:12:54 PM »
But the get away driver is just as guilty as the bank robber. They both had a part in the activity.

Had he taken action in the beginning, acted like a real leader, and spoken the truth, we might be in a better place. Even if he had done these things, the virus may have killed this many people but we might at least feel he tried his best to protect the people he is supposed to lead. But he fought the existence of the virus, spewed nonsense, let people feel they could run wild with no masks, not social distancing, not doing anything to protect themselves or anyone around them. He hates the experts who tell the truth. To this day still trying to sell snake oil (Hydroxychloroquine) as a cure. When do the lies and BS end? He has got to think the American people are blithering idiots and believe what rolls off his forked tongue.

I do hope American people have heard enough blabber from this huckster and vote him out.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16600
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3286 on: August 04, 2020, 12:22:07 PM »
He has got to think the American people are blithering idiots and believe what rolls off his forked tongue.

A solidly untouchable 40% or so have been proving him right since his inauguration.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1559
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3287 on: August 04, 2020, 01:26:45 PM »
.
How about burning the US flag?    I'm pretty sure this is a sensitive one.     Is that considered free speech?


Yes scottish, flag burning is symbolic speech that is protected by the First Amendment's Free Speech Clause.

Flag burning is exceedingly controversial.

I advocate flag burning for the very reason that its disputatiousness  is   highly effective at bringing attention to demonstrators and their causes and then stimulating debate of the causes at issue.


Texas v. Johnson (1989)

After publicly burning an American flag as a means of political protest, Gregory Lee Johnson was convicted of desecrating a flag in violation of Texas law. This case presents the question whether his conviction is consistent with the First Amendment. We hold that it is not.




The First Amendment literally forbids the abridgment only of "speech," but we have long recognized that its protection does not end at the spoken or written word.

We have acknowledged that conduct may be "sufficiently imbued with elements of communication to fall within the scope of the First and Fourteenth Amendments."

In deciding whether particular conduct possesses sufficient communicative elements to bring the First Amendment into play, we have asked whether "[a]n intent to convey a particularized message was present, and [whether] the likelihood was great that the message would be understood by those who viewed it."


Especially pertinent to this case are our decisions recognizing the communicative nature of conduct relating to flags. Attaching a peace sign to the flag,...refusing to salute the flag,...and displaying a red flag,...we have held, all may find shelter under the First Amendment.

That we have had little difficulty identifying an expressive element in conduct relating to flags should not be surprising. The very purpose of a national flag is to serve as a symbol of our country; it is, one might say, "the one visible manifestation of two hundred years of nationhood."


"Symbolism is a primitive but effective way of communicating ideas. The use of an emblem or flag to symbolize some system, idea, institution, or personality, is a short cut from mind to mind. Causes and nations, political parties, lodges and ecclesiastical groups seek to knit the loyalty of their followings to a flag or banner, a color or design."

Pregnant with expressive content, the flag as readily signifies this Nation as does the combination of letters found in "America."


The government generally has a freer hand in restricting expressive conduct than it has in restricting the written or spoken word...It may not, however, proscribe particular conduct because it has expressive elements. "[W]hat might be termed the more generalized guarantee of freedom of expression makes the communicative nature of conduct an inadequate basis for singling out that conduct for proscription. A law directed at the communicative nature of conduct must, like a law directed at speech itself, be justified by the substantial showing of need that the First Amendment requires."

 It is, in short, not simply the verbal or nonverbal nature of the expression, but the governmental interest at stake, that helps to determine whether a restriction on that expression is valid.

The State's position, therefore, amounts to a claim that an audience that takes serious offense at particular expression is necessarily likely to disturb the peace and that the expression may be prohibited on this basis.

Our precedents do not countenance such a presumption. On the contrary, they recognize that a principal "function of free speech under our system of government is to invite dispute. It may indeed best serve its high purpose when it induces a condition of unrest, creates dissatisfaction with conditions as they are, or even stirs people to anger."

It would be odd indeed to conclude both that "if it is the speaker's opinion that gives offense, that consequence is a reason for according it constitutional protection,"...and that the government may ban the expression of certain disagreeable ideas on the unsupported presumption that their very disagreeableness will provoke violence.

Thus, we have not permitted the government to assume that every expression of a provocative idea will incite a riot, but have instead required careful consideration of the actual circumstances surrounding such expression, asking whether the expression "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."

If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.


We have not recognized an exception to this principle even where our flag has been involved.

In short, nothing in our precedents suggests that a State may foster its own view of the flag by prohibiting expressive conduct relating to it.

We never before have held that the Government may ensure that a symbol be used to express only one view of that symbol or its referents.

To conclude that the government may permit designated symbols to be used to communicate only a limited set of messages would be to enter territory having no discernible or defensible boundaries. Could the government, on this theory, prohibit the burning of state flags? Of copies of the Presidential seal? Of the Constitution? In evaluating these choices under the First Amendment, how would we decide which symbols were sufficiently special to warrant this unique status? To do so, we would be forced to consult our own political preferences, and impose them on the citizenry, in the very way that the First Amendment forbids us to do.

There is, moreover, no indication—either in the text of the Constitution or in our cases interpreting it—that a separate juridical category exists for the American flag alone. Indeed, we would not be surprised to learn that the persons who framed our Constitution and wrote the Amendment that we now construe were not known for their reverence for the Union Jack.

The First Amendment does not guarantee that other concepts virtually sacred to our Nation as a whole—such as the principle that discrimination on the basis of race is odious and destructive will go unquestioned in the marketplace of ideas.

We decline, therefore, to create for the flag an exception to the joust of principles protected by the First Amendment.

We are tempted to say, in fact, that the flag's deservedly cherished place in our community will be strengthened, not weakened, by our holding today. Our decision is a reaffirmation of the principles of freedom and inclusiveness that the flag best reflects, and of the conviction that our toleration of criticism such as Johnson's is a sign and source of our strength.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 01:42:49 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5664
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3288 on: August 04, 2020, 02:50:59 PM »
I cannot believe we have a sitting US president who does not know how to pronounce “Yosemite.”

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13915
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3289 on: August 04, 2020, 03:26:06 PM »
I cannot believe we have a sitting US president who does not know how to pronounce “Yosemite.”

Like Yosemite Sam?

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5664
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3290 on: August 04, 2020, 03:31:08 PM »
I cannot believe we have a sitting US president who does not know how to pronounce “Yosemite.”

Like Yosemite Sam?

Like Yosemite National Park. One of the best-known parks in our entire country.

But yeah, you would think at least he might have picked up the pronunciation from the cartoon sometime in the last 74 years, if nothing else.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/510501-trump-struggles-with-pronouncing-yosemites-at-bill-signing

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1919
  • Location: Noo Zilind
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3291 on: August 04, 2020, 05:06:50 PM »
I cannot believe we have a sitting US president who does not know how to pronounce “Yosemite.”

Like Yosemite Sam?

Like Yosemite National Park. One of the best-known parks in our entire country.

But yeah, you would think at least he might have picked up the pronunciation from the cartoon sometime in the last 74 years, if nothing else.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/510501-trump-struggles-with-pronouncing-yosemites-at-bill-signing

Can report that New Zealanders know how to pronounce Yosemite.

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13915
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3292 on: August 04, 2020, 06:07:55 PM »
I cannot believe we have a sitting US president who does not know how to pronounce “Yosemite.”

Like Yosemite Sam?

Like Yosemite National Park. One of the best-known parks in our entire country.

But yeah, you would think at least he might have picked up the pronunciation from the cartoon sometime in the last 74 years, if nothing else.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/510501-trump-struggles-with-pronouncing-yosemites-at-bill-signing

Not being American, I  have no idea how to pronounce Yosemite in regards to the park, I have never heard anyone say it.  I've seen it in print, but that doesn't help.  So many names are country/region specific.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3188
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3293 on: August 04, 2020, 10:08:21 PM »
I cannot believe we have a sitting US president who does not know how to pronounce “Yosemite.”

Like Yosemite Sam?

Like Yosemite National Park. One of the best-known parks in our entire country.

But yeah, you would think at least he might have picked up the pronunciation from the cartoon sometime in the last 74 years, if nothing else.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/510501-trump-struggles-with-pronouncing-yosemites-at-bill-signing

Not being American, I  have no idea how to pronounce Yosemite in regards to the park, I have never heard anyone say it.  I've seen it in print, but that doesn't help.  So many names are country/region specific.

Yo Sem It EE

I'm sure my 10 year old could have made more eye contact during that little spiel. It looked like he was straining to read from an index card to a group of children.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 10:19:35 PM by Travis »

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3188
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3294 on: August 04, 2020, 10:18:39 PM »
Trump snubs John Lewis, claims he's a bigger name in black civil rights.  Once again proving that he can't hold a simple conversation without throwing in some kind of "and by the way I'm awesome" at the end of it.  The interview wasn't even about Trump's civil rights record.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-john-lewis-inauguration

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3203
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3295 on: August 04, 2020, 10:27:02 PM »
I cannot believe we have a sitting US president who does not know how to pronounce “Yosemite.”

The fact that he initially pronounced it like 'anti-semite' kinda shows where his mind is.  Spoiling for a bigoted (already-lost) fight, even when reading off of the teleprompter about our countries pristine nature.  Seriously, what a shit show this guy is - my life would be infinitely better off if I'd never known he or people like him exist.  They won't change, want to drag others down, and generally hate the present; so why do they still have so much power?

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3203
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3296 on: August 04, 2020, 10:48:07 PM »
Trump snubs John Lewis, claims he's a bigger name in black civil rights.  Once again proving that he can't hold a simple conversation without throwing in some kind of "and by the way I'm awesome" at the end of it.  The interview wasn't even about Trump's civil rights record.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-john-lewis-inauguration

All I can say to my children about Trump is, 'this is a dark time in American history'.  They ask about why things are so screwed up and I have little to offer.  I respected McCain.  Vindman.  Mueller.  Christine Blasey Ford...  All of the people who have handled themselves with dignity and respect in the face of withering (and undeserved)  scrutiny have seemingly been beaten while the liars, sycophants, and least deserving are rewarded and elevated.

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2118
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3297 on: August 05, 2020, 04:18:04 AM »
Yo Sem It EE

I'm sure my 10 year old could have made more eye contact during that little spiel. It looked like he was straining to read from an index card to a group of children.

Just fyi there are people who can't stand eye contact. Some can't stand spiders, some can't stand cramped or open places, some can't stand eye contact.
And if those people turn their away during a conversation they are not looking away, they are lending you their ear.

And in some cutlures it would be rude to look someone in the eyes.

Just as a btw and reminder you should not put too much meaning in such single things.

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5796
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3298 on: August 05, 2020, 05:09:39 AM »
Yo Sem It EE

I'm sure my 10 year old could have made more eye contact during that little spiel. It looked like he was straining to read from an index card to a group of children.

Just fyi there are people who can't stand eye contact. Some can't stand spiders, some can't stand cramped or open places, some can't stand eye contact.
And if those people turn their away during a conversation they are not looking away, they are lending you their ear.

And in some cutlures it would be rude to look someone in the eyes.

Just as a btw and reminder you should not put too much meaning in such single things.
True.  But in order to be a good President a person needs to be a good communicator, a good negotiator and good at assessing people.  If Trump can't manage eye contact (I haven't seen the clip) then that is a problem for him doing a good job as President.  Along with all the other reasons he's not a good President, of course.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13536
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3299 on: August 05, 2020, 06:28:08 AM »
There’s 30+ years of interviews and television appearances showing that Trump has no problem making a connection - including eye contact - with people.  It’s one of the skills that helped him as a tv personality.

He seems to have problems only when he is challenged and can’t control the dialog.