Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 303286 times)

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2200 on: June 04, 2020, 06:48:05 AM »
If Esper thinks he can keep his job with Trump and also keep his honor and principles, he need only look at Rod Rosenstein.
Or Jim Mattis
Or H.R. McMaster
Or Dan Coats

...arguably many of the rest never had much honor or principles to begin with.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2201 on: June 04, 2020, 08:13:20 AM »
After Rick Perry was revealed to be using his role as Sec'y of Energy to basically be extorting Ukraine and enriching himself, I vowed to never make a public statement about any member of this current candidate being on the up-and-up. It feels as though the scales fall from our eyes in every. single. instance.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2202 on: June 04, 2020, 09:51:07 AM »
After Rick Perry was revealed to be using his role as Sec'y of Energy to basically be extorting Ukraine and enriching himself, I vowed to never make a public statement about any member of this current candidate being on the up-and-up. It feels as though the scales fall from our eyes in every. single. instance.

Man, how did I miss that?  Perry was (surprisingly) one of the more competent members of this administration.

brandon1827

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2203 on: June 04, 2020, 10:34:09 AM »
If Rick Perry is your bastion of competence, that says it all really

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2204 on: June 04, 2020, 10:36:40 AM »
Looks like Trump is attempting to waive all environmental reviews in order to speed construction of pipelines and highways, citing "economic emergency"

This is a Very. Bad. Idea.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2205 on: June 04, 2020, 10:41:59 AM »
Looks like Trump is attempting to waive all environmental reviews in order to speed construction of pipelines and highways, citing "economic emergency"

This is a Very. Bad. Idea.

Lawsuits will delay any construction starts for months. Even if the lawsuits end in any company's favor, no company is going to start on a controversial year-long construction project with the upcoming election. They know they'll be throwing away money if Trump loses.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2206 on: June 04, 2020, 12:51:23 PM »
The link is to a great interview by a former Agency operative who is now a police officer and is disgusted by the entire culture of police being on a war footing with the rest of the public.  I said good bye to a buddy who is retired SF after hearing his opinions on this for the last time. He sincerely believes every protester is Antifa and should be declared terrorists with all the implications that come with that label. Listening to him you'd think the NYPD have been under seige rather than the other way around.

If the Trump/GOP government keeps up this shit, they well may give rise to people angry enough to use violence against the police and politicians. Who wants to see our country become THAT (again)?

Police are already scared enough to treat everyone like a criminal. What if groups are actively attacking them with guerrilla tactics seen in other countries? Bye bye friendly policemen, hello heavily armed soliders all the time.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2207 on: June 04, 2020, 12:54:23 PM »
Police in the US have been militarizing for quite some time now.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2208 on: June 04, 2020, 01:40:36 PM »
Police in the US have been militarizing for quite some time now.

No shit. Municipal police departments across the US have SWAT teams, tanks, and an apparently endless supply of tear gas.

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/37/9181

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2209 on: June 04, 2020, 01:44:44 PM »
Police in the US have been militarizing for quite some time now.

No shit. Municipal police departments across the US have SWAT teams, tanks, and an apparently endless supply of tear gas.

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/37/9181

Here's something that was eye-opening for me:  We spent twice as much on law enforcement in the US than we do on social welfare programs.
[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/06/04/us-spends-twice-much-law-order-it-does-social-welfare-data-show//url]

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2210 on: June 04, 2020, 02:37:20 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 02:41:43 PM by partgypsy »

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2211 on: June 04, 2020, 02:46:14 PM »
According to certain people, Soros is behind every single protest on the streets or even any critique against True Patriots.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2212 on: June 04, 2020, 02:48:04 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

As far as I can tell, he is wealthy and Jewish so he's an effective scapegoat for the far-right.

Personally, I'm still waiting for the paycheck that Breitbart said I received from him for participating in the 2017 Women's March.[/sarcasm]

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2213 on: June 04, 2020, 02:48:31 PM »
Soros is rich and supports progressive causes and democratic candidates. I think that's all the folks on the right are really complaining about.

A guess about what might have riled them recently: I imagine this flyer about hiring anarchists might be something they saw in their feeds. Probably never occurred to them that this is 100% bullshit.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/anarchist-recruitment-flyer/

Example of misinformation to elicit the responses you're describing at the very least.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 02:50:46 PM by dandarc »

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2214 on: June 04, 2020, 02:48:56 PM »
Also one women in defense of Trump think he's doing an outstanding job, and (contrary to video footage) that in reference to layfayette square no teargas was used in fact the protestors were attacking the police (throwing bottles). And to prempt her version being so different than reports preemptively says " I don't trust cnn." I mean I don't know how to respond...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 02:53:24 PM by partgypsy »

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2215 on: June 04, 2020, 02:55:07 PM »
Police in the US have been militarizing for quite some time now.

No shit. Municipal police departments across the US have SWAT teams, tanks, and an apparently endless supply of tear gas.

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/37/9181

Here's something that was eye-opening for me:  We spent twice as much on law enforcement in the US than we do on social welfare programs.
[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/06/04/us-spends-twice-much-law-order-it-does-social-welfare-data-show//url]

Yeah, if only that money could be used for something else.   Like job skills training, or general education.     When much of the population is poor, uneducated or under-employed it feeds into the need for law enforcement.   Now it's this vicious cycle that's going to be really hard to break.    The next president's got a hell of a job.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2216 on: June 04, 2020, 02:57:37 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

As far as I can tell, he is wealthy and Jewish so he's an effective scapegoat for the far-right.
Personally, I'm still waiting for the paycheck that Breitbart said I received from him for participating in the 2017 Women's March.[/sarcasm]

I worked for a not-for-profit marine research station, and someone wrote a letter the the editor of our local newspaper to say that we were “George soros funded, brainwashed lemmings pushing the climate change hoax without even realizing we’ve been duped”

I, too, am eating for my funding cheque to come through.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2217 on: June 04, 2020, 02:58:03 PM »
how would those numbers change if you add in Medicaid and ACA subsidies?

wbranch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2218 on: June 04, 2020, 03:04:55 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

As far as I can tell, he is wealthy and Jewish so he's an effective scapegoat for the far-right.

Personally, I'm still waiting for the paycheck that Breitbart said I received from him for participating in the 2017 Women's March.[/sarcasm]


Yep, its not just the donations tons of people believe that he is sending weekly checks to Antifa, leftist protestors, BLM protestors, anti-Trump folks, Women's March protestors, people pushing the LGBTQ agenda, Climate change, etc. etc.
I know people that are successful business owners and high earning people at big companies that believe it 1000%. Seemingly smart people for the most part. Part of the globalist agenda or something.

LWYRUP

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2219 on: June 04, 2020, 03:16:22 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

Just think how people used to talk about the Koch Brothers (or at least did in my social circle) back around the GWB era, just from the right instead of the left. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2220 on: June 04, 2020, 03:24:16 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

Just think how people used to talk about the Koch Brothers (or at least did in my social circle) back around the GWB era, just from the right instead of the left.

The Koch brothers are using their money to influence Canadian policy.  Not appreciated.  I suppose it is OK for Americans to influence Canadian policy but not OK for Russia to influence American policy?  After all, one is private money and one is public money.
https://north99.org/2017/11/09/koch-brothers-influencing-canadians-far-right-think-tank-working/

LWYRUP

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2221 on: June 04, 2020, 03:35:27 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

Just think how people used to talk about the Koch Brothers (or at least did in my social circle) back around the GWB era, just from the right instead of the left.

The Koch brothers are using their money to influence Canadian policy.  Not appreciated.  I suppose it is OK for Americans to influence Canadian policy but not OK for Russia to influence American policy?  After all, one is private money and one is public money.
https://north99.org/2017/11/09/koch-brothers-influencing-canadians-far-right-think-tank-working/

Right, but my point was "politically active billionaire, often acts in secret, despised by political opponents, who in turn create conspiracy theories."  Note Soros funds causes around the globe too so your concern (billionaire from another country influencing your politics) shows the similarities.  I'm not getting into the "Russia" thing, that's about state actors so that's a different analysis. 

Personally, I don't think either one is particularly nefarious, except insofar as we don't really want our political system controlled by billionaires.

(I suspect history will judge the Kochs poorly for opposing efforts to fight climate change, but there's no evidence they are sort of purposefully evil charlatans secretly controlling the political system through their shell corporations, etc.  Just people with a lot of money that drop it down on things others think are politically contentious.) 

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2222 on: June 04, 2020, 03:48:25 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

As far as I can tell, he is wealthy and Jewish so he's an effective scapegoat for the far-right.

Personally, I'm still waiting for the paycheck that Breitbart said I received from him for participating in the 2017 Women's March.[/sarcasm]


Yep, its not just the donations tons of people believe that he is sending weekly checks to Antifa, leftist protestors, BLM protestors, anti-Trump folks, Women's March protestors, people pushing the LGBTQ agenda, Climate change, etc. etc.
I know people that are successful business owners and high earning people at big companies that believe it 1000%. Seemingly smart people for the most part. Part of the globalist agenda or something.

The "globalist agenda" has always been code for "Jews controlling everything" in the anti-Semitic conspiracy-theory circles. Not that all anti-globalists know that of course. Or would care if they did. You used to see it in three parenthesis so they could be absolutely sure who each other were: "(((globalist agenda)))".

The Republican party is absolutely rife with conspiracy theorists and racists and racist conspiracy theorists, whether the Republicans in question realize it or not. Conspiracy theories are their bread-and-butter now. They've been told by their propaganda masters that everyone is lying to them about everything for so long that they only are capable of believing in other conspiracy theories that fit their politics.

"All of the world's scientists and experts are lying to you about Global Warming in order to make American Republicans look bad!"
"All of the world's scientists and experts are lying to you about how old the Earth is in a conspiracy to turn you into an Atheist!"
"Obama is really a Kenyan-born Muslim, not a Hawiian Christian!"
"Justice Scalia had a heart attack? No! He was poisoned by murderous Democrats who are trying to steal a Supreme Court seat! We must refuse to do our constitutional duty for a year so that we can maybe keep them from getting away with it!"
"All of the world's journalists and experts are lying to you to make Donald Trump (the best president in the history of the world!) look bad!"
"The evil baby-murdering Democrats are not just for allowing people to have abortions, now they're murdering babies after birth and selling their body parts!"
"The Deep State is lying to you about Trump's collusion with Russia. In fact, it wasn't Trump who colluded, it was Hillary. And George Soros funded it!"
"Vaccines cause autism! And the coronavirus is just a scam caused by 5G towers so that Bill Gates can forcibly inject you with a tracking chip!"

It's disgusting, it's vile, it's evil, and it's absolutely endemic in the Republican party. And it's not on accident, this is what the party propagandists are constantly pushing. This is why they love Trump so much that he could "shoot someone on 5th avenue and get away with it". This is why they all have for years been attacking journalists and scientists and experts and "the elite" (aka anyone who knows what they're talking about, the way they use the word). You pull someone in with one or two of the conspiracy theories that they're naturally aligned with, and soon enough bam! You have a reliable Republican voter for the rest of their life who has completely lost their grip on reality.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 03:52:40 PM by sherr »

Davnasty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2223 on: June 04, 2020, 09:23:36 PM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

Just think how people used to talk about the Koch Brothers (or at least did in my social circle) back around the GWB era, just from the right instead of the left.

The Koch brothers are using their money to influence Canadian policy.  Not appreciated.  I suppose it is OK for Americans to influence Canadian policy but not OK for Russia to influence American policy?  After all, one is private money and one is public money.
https://north99.org/2017/11/09/koch-brothers-influencing-canadians-far-right-think-tank-working/

Right, but my point was "politically active billionaire, often acts in secret, despised by political opponents, who in turn create conspiracy theories."  Note Soros funds causes around the globe too so your concern (billionaire from another country influencing your politics) shows the similarities.  I'm not getting into the "Russia" thing, that's about state actors so that's a different analysis. 

Personally, I don't think either one is particularly nefarious, except insofar as we don't really want our political system controlled by billionaires.

(I suspect history will judge the Kochs poorly for opposing efforts to fight climate change, but there's no evidence they are sort of purposefully evil charlatans secretly controlling the political system through their shell corporations, etc.  Just people with a lot of money that drop it down on things others think are politically contentious.)

I'll agree that there are similarities in the way these wealthy figures are viewed by the people who disagree with their politics, but which is worse comes down largely to degree.

How many people believe conspiracy theories about the Kochs/Soros? How far from the truth are those theories? How strongly do people believe them?

I don't know all of the answers to those questions, but I still feel confident in saying that the conspiracy theories about Soros are worse on every count. I don't even think it's close.

Maybe it's a result of my information bubble but I really don't hear much about the Koch brothers in the news. I suppose I used to hear more prior to Trump's election but when I did it was usually actual news more than conspiracy theories.

LWYRUP

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2224 on: June 04, 2020, 09:53:21 PM »
I think you are right that the Soros ones are worse.

The Koch thing was more a big deal around the Iraq war.  The internet was still less of a thing and people were generally less crazy.  The theories I heard related to them concocting the Iraq war to get at the oil.

The Iraq war was a terribly shitty idea, but I really don't think GWB did it to get some billionaire access to oil.

I also haven't heard much Koch stuff in recent years.  They aren't Trump guys so their favored candidates have been pretty much out of power for 12 years now. 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2225 on: June 05, 2020, 06:00:44 AM »
I think you are right that the Soros ones are worse.

The Koch thing was more a big deal around the Iraq war.  The internet was still less of a thing and people were generally less crazy.  The theories I heard related to them concocting the Iraq war to get at the oil.

The Iraq war was a terribly shitty idea, but I really don't think GWB did it to get some billionaire access to oil.

I also haven't heard much Koch stuff in recent years. They aren't Trump guys so their favored candidates have been pretty much out of power for 12 years now.




I fondly recall one of them dying last year. 


nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2226 on: June 05, 2020, 06:48:34 AM »
I think you are right that the Soros ones are worse.

The Koch thing was more a big deal around the Iraq war.  The internet was still less of a thing and people were generally less crazy.  The theories I heard related to them concocting the Iraq war to get at the oil.

The Iraq war was a terribly shitty idea, but I really don't think GWB did it to get some billionaire access to oil.

I also haven't heard much Koch stuff in recent years. They aren't Trump guys so their favored candidates have been pretty much out of power for 12 years now.




I fondly recall one of them dying last year.

That’s morbid

The Koch brothers have been dead-set against the tariffs that Trump imposed and spent several million$ to in opposition - both with an extensive lobbying/advertising campaign as well as supporting down-ballot candidates who were pro-free trade.

It wasn’t the all out ideological war between Trump and the Koch’s that many Democrats hoped for, but as is often the case it did make strange bedfellows (in an “enemy of my enemy is my friend” sort of way...)

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2227 on: June 05, 2020, 07:02:12 AM »
The Koch Brothers disagree with Trump plenty, but they pretty much wrote all the checks needed to get Mike Pompeo into Congress. If Pompeo is elected President in 2024, those investments will look really smart.

They've also had the resources to reach children early: they've released a set of curricula that are very widespread in midwestern and Texan schools explaining libertarianism to children.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2228 on: June 05, 2020, 07:16:00 AM »
Pompeo for President?  Oh good lord no.  The guy that boasted about putting ‘swagger’ back into American diplomacy, that’s publicly proclaimed we would not address human rights abuses, Who lied about the conversations involving Ukraine and president Trump, that fired the IG for investigating him for abusing government resources to enrich himself... 

The GOP needs to do better.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2229 on: June 05, 2020, 08:52:49 AM »

The GOP needs to do better.

If they can keep the WH this year, why would they feel as though they needed to?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2230 on: June 05, 2020, 08:59:13 AM »

The GOP needs to do better.

If they can keep the WH this year, why would they feel as though they needed to?

When Republican voters viciously punish people who attempt to do better (disagree with Trump on . . . pretty much anything) . . . where do you think any motivation to do better would come from?

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2231 on: June 05, 2020, 09:16:03 AM »

The GOP needs to do better.

If they can keep the WH this year, why would they feel as though they needed to?

Well if they were honest with themselves (and I see no reason why they would be) they'd recognize that they suffered one of the largest sea-changes in 2018, largely squandered two years of holding all levels of government, and (in all likelihood in Jan 2021) are vastly outnumbered in the House and (at best) have just a one or two person majority in the senate, complicating any real GOP legislation in the years to come.  While they've come up with ever more creative ways of expanding executive power, the low-hanging fruit that can be obtained by simply undoing Obama's EOs has been done... going forward they'll need to craft some new laws to push their platform ahead.  And that's going to be very unlikely with a combative President and a ~30 seat deficit in the House.

Viewed objectively, I don't see the first 3.5 years of the Trump administration as being a great 'win' for the party.  Sure, they got a couple of judges and a tax reform out of it, but those would have come regardless of who they nominated or which GOP bore the standardbearer.  The ACA still stands (shockingly), they never got an infrastructure bill passed despite substantial amount of support from Dems, and Pelosi has regained her power (and then some).  Meanwhile Ryan is gone, they (temporarily) lost Georgia, McConnell (!!) is in a heated re-election in KY, Collins looks likely to lose, and they are in struggling in AZ, NC and Colorado (all incumbents). Had Trump been the candidate many institutional Republicans had hoped for - spending most of his time golfing while the 'adults' crafted their wishlist of GOP reforms, the changes would have been substantial.

Perhaps even worse, the party in general has their lowest support from Latinos since G. W. Bush, and they will likely have the lowest diversity assembly next year in several decades. Its not going to make ongoing demographic shifts any easier for the party in 2024 and beyond.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2232 on: June 05, 2020, 09:25:05 AM »
Counterpoint:

  • They got the 2017 tax cut. When a Democrat becomes President, they will be able to pressure that democrat into cutting spending, just as they did with the two previous Democratic Presidents
  • While 2018 lost them the House, they were able to strengthen the Senate majority and focus--really focus--on those judges. The presence of all these conservative judges dramatically limits the downside of leftward reforms on guns, health care, and environmental policy when Democrats do gain power again. Even if they lose the Senate in 2020, experience indicates they'll have a decent chance of regaining it in 2022. Unified government rarely lasts very long.
  • Trump was able to successfully break the immigration system; many Latinos stayed on the Republican side because they fear "Socialism", particularly in the battleground state of Florida; their strength across low-density states will keep them in the game as these demographics shift.
  • The decades-long investment in conservative media was shown to have succeeded in its project to make a Watergate-type expulsion of a corrupt President impossible.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2233 on: June 05, 2020, 09:41:45 AM »
Counterpoint:

  • They got the 2017 tax cut. When a Democrat becomes President, they will be able to pressure that democrat into cutting spending, just as they did with the two previous Democratic Presidents
  • While 2018 lost them the House, they were able to strengthen the Senate majority and focus--really focus--on those judges. The presence of all these conservative judges dramatically limits the downside of leftward reforms on guns, health care, and environmental policy when Democrats do gain power again. Even if they lose the Senate in 2020, experience indicates they'll have a decent chance of regaining it in 2022. Unified government rarely lasts very long.
  • Trump was able to successfully break the immigration system; many Latinos stayed on the Republican side because they fear "Socialism", particularly in the battleground state of Florida; their strength across low-density states will keep them in the game as these demographics shift.
  • The decades-long investment in conservative media was shown to have succeeded in its project to make a Watergate-type expulsion of a corrupt President impossible.

I have no doubt those are the rose-colored glasses that the GOP will view their accomplishments through (though I'm uncertain what "really focus on judges" means here; they were going to get two seats regardless, that was always a given).

An interesting follow-up is: should the GOP lose the WH, will they view the previous four years any differently?  Will that change if there's a 50/50 senate (and the Dems hold the tiebreaker)?

turketron

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2234 on: June 05, 2020, 09:46:06 AM »
Trump says he hopes George Floyd 'looking down' and seeing today’s jobs numbers as 'a great day for him' : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-george-floyd-press-conference-today-job-numbers-a9551426.html


Quote
The president said: "Hopefully George is looking down right now and saying, 'This is a great thing that's happening for our country. It's a great day for him, it's a great day for everybody. It's a great day for everybody. This is a great, great day."

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2235 on: June 05, 2020, 09:52:50 AM »
Unemployment of 13.3% is being touted as "great" based entirely on the premise that "it could have been worse".
That's some serious spin. We are still higher than at any point since the 1930s.

EDIT:  Trump has just said his plan to address racism is "a strong economy".  Because when we had a strong economy (the BEST, really) six months ago there was no racism...??? 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 09:55:19 AM by nereo »

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2236 on: June 05, 2020, 10:20:33 AM »
I think you are right that the Soros ones are worse.

The Koch thing was more a big deal around the Iraq war.  The internet was still less of a thing and people were generally less crazy.  The theories I heard related to them concocting the Iraq war to get at the oil.

The Iraq war was a terribly shitty idea, but I really don't think GWB did it to get some billionaire access to oil.

I also haven't heard much Koch stuff in recent years. They aren't Trump guys so their favored candidates have been pretty much out of power for 12 years now.




I fondly recall one of them dying last year.

That’s morbid

The Koch brothers have been dead-set against the tariffs that Trump imposed and spent several million$ to in opposition - both with an extensive lobbying/advertising campaign as well as supporting down-ballot candidates who were pro-free trade.

It wasn’t the all out ideological war between Trump and the Koch’s that many Democrats hoped for, but as is often the case it did make strange bedfellows (in an “enemy of my enemy is my friend” sort of way...)

Most of the climate change denial on the right is due to Koch propaganda as it's bad for their businesses. Starting in 2010 any republican that did not get on board with climate change denial would see well funded primary challenges which many of them lost and any winners had a tough time getting positions on committees etc. Those challengers were funded by the Kochs. NYT did a write up about it a couple of years ago. There used to be republicans that drove priuses and talked about climate change and the need to transition away from fossil fuels. Many of them got primaried and the ones that didn't bought trucks and got fully on board the climate denial wagon. Pelosi and Gringich did an ad together about the dangers of global warming and the need for bipartisan legislation that addressed it. How things have changed. I think this is the article

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/03/us/politics/republican-leaders-climate-change.html

Here's the ad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi6n_-wB154
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 10:27:56 AM by sixwings »

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2237 on: June 05, 2020, 10:39:59 AM »
An interesting follow-up is: should the GOP lose the WH, will they view the previous four years any differently?  Will that change if there's a 50/50 senate (and the Dems hold the tiebreaker)?

I think yes. The instant that Trump fails to win a second term, Republicans will flip the switch from absolutely adoring him and excusing / praising everything he does, to "oh I never really supported Trump, I was just in it for the tax cuts / judges". Which is of course a lie, because if that were true they would have been perfectly happy with a President Pence. But watch it happen.

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2238 on: June 05, 2020, 10:43:18 AM »
Trump won't take the laying down, if they flip on him after he's booted he will (continue to) destroy the party. Look what he tweeted about Murkowski. Trump may have gained them a few judges but longer term he will hopefully destroy the party completely. And hopefully a new saner one will emerge.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2239 on: June 05, 2020, 10:50:40 AM »
Trump won't take the laying down, if they flip on him after he's booted he will (continue to) destroy the party. Look what he tweeted about Murkowski. Trump may have gained them a few judges but longer term he will hopefully destroy the party completely. And hopefully a new saner one will emerge.

I've no doubt that Trump will rant and rave and tweet all sorts of BS shuold he lose, but I question whether it will have any impact once he is no longer POTUS.  As sherr suggets, its possible most in the GOP will pretend to never have truly supported him, much like Deatheaters claiming to have been under an Imperius curse.  If that comes to be all his ballyhooing will fall on death ears, or (worse for him) the political calculus will change and GOP will find it advantageous to counter whatever nastiness he peddles, whereas now they risk losing re-election.

Put another way, teammates are willing to put up with a lot when they're winning.  but prima donnas get tossed out with the trash once they lose.

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2240 on: June 05, 2020, 10:57:30 AM »
Yeah I dunno, I think there's a lot of loyalty to Trump, not the republican party among the right wing.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2241 on: June 05, 2020, 11:03:08 AM »
Yeah I dunno, I think there's a lot of loyalty to Trump, not the republican party among the right wing.

That begs the question: What is the Republican party today without Trump?

Should he lose in November, it will be a very real question indeed.

DoubleDown

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2242 on: June 05, 2020, 11:10:01 AM »
Yeah I dunno, I think there's a lot of loyalty to Trump, not the republican party among the right wing.

That begs the question: What is the Republican party today without Trump?

Should he lose in November, it will be a very real question indeed.

It is my hope and dream that should Trump lose in November, in January we see him in handcuffs with no one to pardon him. It's a lofty goal, but my dream nonetheless.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2243 on: June 05, 2020, 11:30:46 AM »
It is my hope and dream that should Trump lose in November, in January we see him in handcuffs with no one to pardon him. It's a lofty goal, but my dream nonetheless.

0% chance. If/when Trump does lose he'll simply step down 1 day before his term is up and President Pence will issue him a blanket pardon. And the Republicans love him for it.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2244 on: June 05, 2020, 11:41:29 AM »
It is my hope and dream that should Trump lose in November, in January we see him in handcuffs with no one to pardon him. It's a lofty goal, but my dream nonetheless.

0% chance. If/when Trump does lose he'll simply step down 1 day before his term is up and President Pence will issue him a blanket pardon. And the Republicans love him for it.

I don't see Pence ever getting to be President - even for a day - with Trump still breathing. I don't think he will voluntarily resign, even for 1 day.

As I said upthread a few pages back, while I abhor so much of what Trump has done, I'm so exhausted by the last 3+ years that I'd be in favor of his predecessor NOT trying to make him pay for his crimes IF reforms were passed to prevent future wanna-be despots from abusing the Presidency to the degree Trump has.  One way or another history will reveal most everything that occurred these last few years in the WH, so he won't escape judgement that way, and it's not like Trump has a political future beyond the Presidency (he's not going to run for Senator of Florida and be junior to Rubio or Scott). 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2245 on: June 05, 2020, 11:51:13 AM »
Here's a question. I am Facebook friends with 2 people who have friends with beliefs differently than my own (one redneck, one born again Christian), plus one family member who would also be considered conservative Christian. All three of these people in response to recent events, either posted themselves or their friends posted memes or conspiracy theories about George Soros. I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed it. It seems freaking transparent/irrational of everything that's going on, that's what's your going to focus on, but perhaps an effective strategy? At least one also said that all Democrats are up to no good/enemy (Soros is evil, he donates to Democrats, all Democrats are evil). Can someone explain the Soros thing. What has he done that's so evil? I asked one of the posters but they didn't respond.

There was a very good article about "the rise of Soros as the far rights scapegoat", but it ended up behind a pay wall. I think it was this one: https://www.dasmagazin.ch/2019/01/12/die-finkelstein-formel/  (German, you can use deepl.com for translation if you put in the work to get around the paywall, I didn't found a fast way)

It all started when Victor Orban needed a scapegoat to win the hungarian election. He got himself a campaign manager (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_J._Finkelstein) that had already put several (far) right people in position (Reagan, or Netanyahu in Israel for example, always using fear based campaign, to put it friendly). They found the best scapegoat: George Soros

He made his billions with a hedge fond (so nobody likes him from the start). He financed pro-democratic institutions before and especially after the end of the USSR - for example the university Victor Orban got a degree from (history so often is a bitch!). In general he was a liberal (as in in all people are equal etc.).
Soros also is a jew (bonus points) and since he was in the US had no way to fight back politically against Orban and his campaign.

The far right all over the world picked the scapegoat up and made him into Satan Incarnate. Goros eats babies, pays everyone who says that that there is climate change and... you get the picture.

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2246 on: June 05, 2020, 11:51:54 AM »
Unemployment of 13.3% is being touted as "great" based entirely on the premise that "it could have been worse".
That's some serious spin. We are still higher than at any point since the 1930s.

EDIT:  Trump has just said his plan to address racism is "a strong economy".  Because when we had a strong economy (the BEST, really) six months ago there was no racism...???

I grant Trump that this pandemic is truly something out of the ordinary, including how it is affecting the economy.
But the whole way he was saying this is great, really great. And that George Floyd would be happy about it (not mentioning the much worse employment numbers for African Americans) is out of touch and incredibly tone deaf.

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2247 on: June 05, 2020, 12:55:42 PM »
Trump isnt going to just quietly disappear after he's out of office like GWB or Obama. He's going to start TrumpTV, which a pretty good portion of the republican base will subscribe to, and use it to air whatever petty grievance he has with whoever he thinks wronged him. That was why he ran for president in the first place, build a base for a tv show. He's going to continue to weild a pretty big influence over the republican base IMO.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2248 on: June 05, 2020, 01:04:05 PM »
Trump isnt going to just quietly disappear after he's out of office like GWB or Obama. He's going to start TrumpTV, which a pretty good portion of the republican base will subscribe to, and use it to air whatever petty grievance he has with whoever he thinks wronged him. That was why he ran for president in the first place, build a base for a tv show. He's going to continue to weild a pretty big influence over the republican base IMO.

So his role going forward will be "king-maker"?  For how long?

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2249 on: June 05, 2020, 01:10:07 PM »
I bet he will at least try to play that role until he keels over and dies from a fast food induced heart attack. There's no way republicans can say they never supported him without significant backlash from him. He's not going to just let them trash him after he loses.