Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297398 times)

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2150 on: June 01, 2020, 02:42:16 PM »
Of course he wants them to go to jail. They are Democrats.
Are you assuming that all the destructive folks are Democrats?

Trump didn't specify that only the destructive protesters should be jailed. And the current protesters are much more likely to be Democrats, just like the militia protesters storming the state capitols with guns a few weeks ago were mostly Republican (of course, those were "good people" because those protests tended to be de facto Trump rallies).

I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.

I won’t argue about whether the President meant Democrat protestors or not.  What I object to is this perception that a show of force coupled with extensive jail time is beneficial to society.

The “War on Drugs” in the 1980s also called for extensive arrests and prolonged incarcerations, and (I would argue) backfired spectacularly. The strong-arm tactics used by law enforcement during the early years of the civil rights movement also were ineffective - both at stopping future protests and with keeping them peaceful.

People feel a great injustice, and many feel personally threatened.  Countering that with yet more force won’t calm tensions, nor avoid future conflicts.  Rather than acknowledge the reasons why so many are protesting and asked for restraint on all sides Trump has instead encouraged a confrontational stance.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2151 on: June 01, 2020, 02:45:25 PM »
Of course he wants them to go to jail. They are Democrats.
Are you assuming that all the destructive folks are Democrats?

Trump didn't specify that only the destructive protesters should be jailed. And the current protesters are much more likely to be Democrats, just like the militia protesters storming the state capitols with guns a few weeks ago were mostly Republican (of course, those were "good people" because those protests tended to be de facto Trump rallies).

I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.

Trump quote:
Quote
Now the harder you are, the tougher you are, the less likely it is that you’re going to be hit. This is a movement. We found out in delivering supplies to various places in various states. You people know about it now, but we found out many things. It’s like a movement. And it’s a movement that if you don’t put it down, it’ll get worse and worse. This is like occupy wall street. It was a disaster until one day somebody said that’s enough. And they just went in and wiped them out. And it’s the last time I heard the name occupy wall street. Until today, when I heard about it, I heard occupy wall street. I haven’t heard about it. I heard about it today for the first time in a long time. It was there for forever it seemed on wall street. They closed up wall street, the financial district of the world. And they had total domination. They were ordering pizzas that were… nobody did anything. And then one day somebody said, that’s enough. You get them out of here within two hours. And it was Bedlam for an hour. Then after that, everything was beautiful. And that was the last time we heard about it. But these are the same people. These are radicals and they’re anarchists.

This gem is from a bit later:
Quote
I have to tell you, I live in Manhattan. What’s going on in Manhattan, I have no idea. New York’s finest, they’ve got to be allowed maybe to do their jobs. I don’t know what’s happening in Manhattan, but it’s terrible. And because it’s New York, because it’s Manhattan, it gets a lot of press. So they really spent a lot of time on it. But New York is going to have to toughen up and we’ll send you National Guard if you want. You have the largest police force in the country, 40,000 people I understand, but what’s going on in New York is terrible. It’s terrible. Of all the places.

This moment was an interesting end to the call:
Quote
Governor Pritzker: (51:41)
Thank you. I wanted to keep this moment, I can’t let it pass, to speak up and say that I’ve been extraordinarily concerned about the rhetoric that’s been used by you. It’s been inflammatory and it’s not okay for that officer to choke George Floyd to death, but we have to call for calm. We have to have police reform called for. We called out our National Guard and our state police, but rhetoric that’s coming out of the White House is making it worse. And I need to say to you that people are feeling real pain out there, that we’ve got to have national leadership in calling for calm and making sure that we’re addressing the concerns of the legitimate peaceful protesters. That will help us to bring order.

Donald Trump: (52:37)
Okay. Well thank you very much, J.B. I don’t like your rhetoric much either because I watched it with respect to the coronavirus, and I don’t like your rhetoric much either. I think you could have done a much better job frankly, but that’s okay. We don’t agree with each other. As far as the [inaudible 00:52:53] with respect to George Floyd, in respect to Officer Floyd, I’ve spoken about it often and I’ve spoken about it with great compassion that I think is a horrible thing that happened and I’ve called it out on numerous occasions in numerous speeches. I even spoke about it at our great rocket launch. I covered it before I covered the rocket. We just sent out a billion dollar rocket, and before I spoke about the rocket in a major speech after the rocket launch, I spoke as to what happened with respect to Mr. Floyd. I thought it was a disgrace. I feel like what happened was a disgrace, but I spoke about it probably as long as I did about the rocket itself. And those police officers, what they did, including the three of them that stood there and watched and maybe even participated, the whole world was disgraced by it, not just our country and the whole world was watching. So nobody can tell me I haven’t spoken about it. I’ve spoken about it at great length, but I will continue to speak about it. But I also have to speak about law and order. We need law and order in our country. And if we don’t have law and order, we don’t have a country. So we need law and order. Okay, who’s next please. #2. #2 please.

Operator: (54:11)
We have no one in queue at this time.

I mean, he talked about it almost as much as he talked about Elon Musk's SpaceX rocket launch (which Trump also thought would be a defining moment of his presidency, even though it was the first commercial/nongovernment manned spaceflight. Dude thinks everything is about him. ). 

If you want to see all of it instead of snippets, see the full transcript here:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-phone-call-transcript-with-governors-george-floyd-protests


MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2152 on: June 01, 2020, 03:49:16 PM »
I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.
You have a lot more faith in the justice system that I do.

There have been reports of cities all over the country announcing curfews five minutes before curfew begins, then arresting peaceful protesters who (understandably) can't get off the streets before the curfew starts.
That would indeed be a spectacular example of government overreach, so I agree with you that any "arresting peaceful folks after a five minute curfew warning" are not good.  But window smashers, car burners, etc.?  Yeah, I say arrest them.

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2153 on: June 01, 2020, 03:57:28 PM »
Trump quote:
Quote
Now the harder you are, the tougher you are, the less likely it is that you’re going to be hit. This is a movement. We found out in delivering supplies to various places in various states. You people know about it now, but we found out many things. It’s like a movement. And it’s a movement that if you don’t put it down, it’ll get worse and worse. This is like occupy wall street. It was a disaster until one day somebody said that’s enough. And they just went in and wiped them out. And it’s the last time I heard the name occupy wall street. Until today, when I heard about it, I heard occupy wall street. I haven’t heard about it. I heard about it today for the first time in a long time. It was there for forever it seemed on wall street. They closed up wall street, the financial district of the world. And they had total domination. They were ordering pizzas that were… nobody did anything. And then one day somebody said, that’s enough. You get them out of here within two hours. And it was Bedlam for an hour. Then after that, everything was beautiful. And that was the last time we heard about it. But these are the same people. These are radicals and they’re anarchists.

This gem is from a bit later:
Quote
I have to tell you, I live in Manhattan. What’s going on in Manhattan, I have no idea. New York’s finest, they’ve got to be allowed maybe to do their jobs. I don’t know what’s happening in Manhattan, but it’s terrible. And because it’s New York, because it’s Manhattan, it gets a lot of press. So they really spent a lot of time on it. But New York is going to have to toughen up and we’ll send you National Guard if you want. You have the largest police force in the country, 40,000 people I understand, but what’s going on in New York is terrible. It’s terrible. Of all the places.
Seems appropriate to me.

Quote
This moment was an interesting end to the call:
Quote
Governor Pritzker: (51:41)
Thank you. I wanted to keep this moment, I can’t let it pass, to speak up and say that I’ve been extraordinarily concerned about the rhetoric that’s been used by you. It’s been inflammatory and it’s not okay for that officer to choke George Floyd to death, but we have to call for calm. We have to have police reform called for. We called out our National Guard and our state police, but rhetoric that’s coming out of the White House is making it worse. And I need to say to you that people are feeling real pain out there, that we’ve got to have national leadership in calling for calm and making sure that we’re addressing the concerns of the legitimate peaceful protesters. That will help us to bring order.

Donald Trump: (52:37)
Okay. Well thank you very much, J.B. I don’t like your rhetoric much either because I watched it with respect to the coronavirus, and I don’t like your rhetoric much either. I think you could have done a much better job frankly, but that’s okay. We don’t agree with each other. As far as the [inaudible 00:52:53] with respect to George Floyd, in respect to Officer Floyd, I’ve spoken about it often and I’ve spoken about it with great compassion that I think is a horrible thing that happened and I’ve called it out on numerous occasions in numerous speeches. I even spoke about it at our great rocket launch. I covered it before I covered the rocket. We just sent out a billion dollar rocket, and before I spoke about the rocket in a major speech after the rocket launch, I spoke as to what happened with respect to Mr. Floyd. I thought it was a disgrace. I feel like what happened was a disgrace, but I spoke about it probably as long as I did about the rocket itself. And those police officers, what they did, including the three of them that stood there and watched and maybe even participated, the whole world was disgraced by it, not just our country and the whole world was watching. So nobody can tell me I haven’t spoken about it. I’ve spoken about it at great length, but I will continue to speak about it. But I also have to speak about law and order. We need law and order in our country. And if we don’t have law and order, we don’t have a country. So we need law and order. Okay, who’s next please. #2. #2 please.

Operator: (54:11)
We have no one in queue at this time.

I mean, he talked about it almost as much as he talked about Elon Musk's SpaceX rocket launch (which Trump also thought would be a defining moment of his presidency, even though it was the first commercial/nongovernment manned spaceflight. Dude thinks everything is about him. ). 

If you want to see all of it instead of snippets, see the full transcript here:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-phone-call-transcript-with-governors-george-floyd-protests
Pritzker's "...addressing the concerns of the legitimate peaceful protesters" seems reasonable and distinguishes between violent and non-violent.

As far as "everything is about him," yes that's often true.  In this case, though, Pritzker talked "...about the rhetoric that’s been used by you [Trump]."  Given that, it's not at all unreasonable for Trump (or anyone so accused) to talk about what he himself has done.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2154 on: June 01, 2020, 04:35:51 PM »
I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.
You have a lot more faith in the justice system that I do.

There have been reports of cities all over the country announcing curfews five minutes before curfew begins, then arresting peaceful protesters who (understandably) can't get off the streets before the curfew starts.
That would indeed be a spectacular example of government overreach, so I agree with you that any "arresting peaceful folks after a five minute curfew warning" are not good.  But window smashers, car burners, etc.?  Yeah, I say arrest them.

I urge arrest, prosecution, and if convicted, punishment of vandals, looters, and arsonists.

And not only because of their patent criminality.

I want them off the streets because their criminality induces fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally protected assembly and speech.


« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 04:39:06 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2155 on: June 01, 2020, 04:40:13 PM »
I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.
You have a lot more faith in the justice system that I do.

There have been reports of cities all over the country announcing curfews five minutes before curfew begins, then arresting peaceful protesters who (understandably) can't get off the streets before the curfew starts.
That would indeed be a spectacular example of government overreach, so I agree with you that any "arresting peaceful folks after a five minute curfew warning" are not good.  But window smashers, car burners, etc.?  Yeah, I say arrest them.

I urge arrest, prosecution, and if convicted, punishment of vandals, looters, and arsonists.

And not only because of their patent criminality.

I want them off the streets because their criminality induces fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally protected assembly and speech.

Wait, I thought we were talking about rioters, not police.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2156 on: June 01, 2020, 05:08:15 PM »
I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.
You have a lot more faith in the justice system that I do.

There have been reports of cities all over the country announcing curfews five minutes before curfew begins, then arresting peaceful protesters who (understandably) can't get off the streets before the curfew starts.
That would indeed be a spectacular example of government overreach, so I agree with you that any "arresting peaceful folks after a five minute curfew warning" are not good.  But window smashers, car burners, etc.?  Yeah, I say arrest them.

I urge arrest, prosecution, and if convicted, punishment of vandals, looters, and arsonists.

And not only because of their patent criminality.

I want them off the streets because their criminality induces fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally protected assembly and speech.

Wait, I thought we were talking about rioters, not police.
Sure you are not referring to the organization that has documented cases of targeting journalists during the last few days? Or spraying children with mace (Seattle), or with a documented history of excessive force across many jurisdictions?

I know that most police officers are actually good people with a genuinely good moral compass and desire to serve and protect their communities. I also understand that it is a difficult and, at times, dangerous profession. Part of that moral compass should include a willingness to listen and accept change. In Seattle, where the police department is under a federal consent decree due to systematic overuse of force (racial bias was not conclusive because the data had not been collected), the police force has not exactly been as cooperative as we would like. The police unions, while it is appropriate that the look out for the interests of their members, have been a blocking force against reform.

Yes, violent actors at the otherwise largely peaceful protests should be prosecuted for specific acts of arson, looting or what not. But we should remember that the source of the protests, and at least part of the violence, is a systematic over-policing (to use a polite term) of a segment of our population. The protests and associated violence are not the root problem, they are a symptom. As a society, if we are truly to live up to the promise of the free and the brave, we need to address these issues. What does that look like?
1. Collect the data so that we can actually know if we have been effective.
2. Work with police unions to set up systems to get rid of the bad cops. This is a cultural sea change, but very important to legitimacy. It is natural to have a strong bond with people you work with closely and especially in difficult and dangerous settings. That culture is fine and appropriate, but it needs to view bad practices as having stepped outside the blue line.
3. Work on reducing warrior-culture in the police forces. Police forces have become increasingly militarized following 9/11. We should review and have a conversation about what we actually want our day-to-day police doing and being trained in.


4. Following up on 3, see if we can use other tools such as social workers to do some of the things police are currently tasked with, but maybe not trained as well in. Social workers, persons with expertise in crisis management, etc can be used.

Psychstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2157 on: June 01, 2020, 05:14:34 PM »
You have a lot more faith in the justice system that I do.

We don't have a justice system, we have a legal system that sometimes provides justice and sometimes provides injustice.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2158 on: June 01, 2020, 05:16:15 PM »
So the answer to protests against police brutality is ... more police brutality. And what sounds a hell of a lot like martial law.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-52876499

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2159 on: June 01, 2020, 06:34:19 PM »
I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.
You have a lot more faith in the justice system that I do.

There have been reports of cities all over the country announcing curfews five minutes before curfew begins, then arresting peaceful protesters who (understandably) can't get off the streets before the curfew starts.
That would indeed be a spectacular example of government overreach, so I agree with you that any "arresting peaceful folks after a five minute curfew warning" are not good.  But window smashers, car burners, etc.?  Yeah, I say arrest them.

I urge arrest, prosecution, and if convicted, punishment of vandals, looters, and arsonists.

And not only because of their patent criminality.

I want them off the streets because their criminality induces fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally protected assembly and speech.

Yeah, the violent protesters are the problem.    The trouble with arresting them is that the police usually round up the non-violent protesters, beat them up a bit and put them in jail overnight while the violent ones escape.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2160 on: June 01, 2020, 06:46:42 PM »

I urge arrest, prosecution, and if convicted, punishment of vandals, looters, and arsonists.

And not only because of their patent criminality.

I want them off the streets because their criminality induces fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally protected assembly and speech.

Speaking of inducing fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally-protected assembly and speech...

How do you feel about the use of tear gas and rubber bullets against non-violent protesters so that the president can take a stroll around outside and pose with 4 of his friends and a Bible for a photo op in front of a nearby church?

« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 06:54:19 PM by js82 »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2161 on: June 01, 2020, 07:23:51 PM »
I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.
You have a lot more faith in the justice system that I do.

There have been reports of cities all over the country announcing curfews five minutes before curfew begins, then arresting peaceful protesters who (understandably) can't get off the streets before the curfew starts.
That would indeed be a spectacular example of government overreach, so I agree with you that any "arresting peaceful folks after a five minute curfew warning" are not good.  But window smashers, car burners, etc.?  Yeah, I say arrest them.

I urge arrest, prosecution, and if convicted, punishment of vandals, looters, and arsonists.

And not only because of their patent criminality.

I want them off the streets because their criminality induces fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally protected assembly and speech.

Yeah, the violent protesters are the problem.    The trouble with arresting them is that the police usually round up the non-violent protesters, beat them up a bit and put them in jail overnight while the violent ones escape.
...And the previously non-violent protesters now have reason to say F*ck the police.

The bad cops and the bad protesters are pretty much identical in terms of their psychology.  The sooner this gets figured out, the better.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2162 on: June 01, 2020, 08:12:29 PM »
Speaking of inducing fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally-protected assembly and speech...

How do you feel about the use of tear gas and rubber bullets against non-violent protesters so that the president can take a stroll around outside and pose with 4 of his friends and a Bible for a photo op in front of a nearby church?

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Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2163 on: June 01, 2020, 08:50:29 PM »
Classic twitter quote

"The same people who told us two weeks ago that we’d just have to suck it up and let our grandparents die now expect us to mourn for a couple of smashed windows at Old Navy."

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2164 on: June 01, 2020, 09:24:47 PM »
I really cannot even describe what it was like to live through Thursday, Oct. 17. But it's now been almost two weeks, and we're accumulating a fresh set of missteps from our overmatched Commander-and-Chief.

A little about me: I'm a registered Republican who voted in the 2016 primary, but saw immediately that Trump would be a bad President. I didn't think the modest progress on conservative causes would justify the corrosion of our discourse and foreign policy and brazen corruption that Trump and his immediate appointees...

Where is Trump now?  Golfing maybe?  America needs a Republican Party, so why do Republicans even associate themselves with this used car salesman?

Trump is the embodiment of the modern Republican party.  He is currently (and has been for his entirely presidency) wildly popular among Republican voters, and has experienced virtually no opposition at anything from Republican politicians.  Republicans associate with Trump because Trump's actions are actions they like, approve of, and want more of.  He is the Republican party.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2165 on: June 01, 2020, 10:13:11 PM »
Of course he wants them to go to jail. They are Democrats.
Are you assuming that all the destructive folks are Democrats?

Trump didn't specify that only the destructive protesters should be jailed. And the current protesters are much more likely to be Democrats, just like the militia protesters storming the state capitols with guns a few weeks ago were mostly Republican (of course, those were "good people" because those protests tended to be de facto Trump rallies).

I'll take what you quoted at face value: "The president continued: 'You have to arrest people, and you have to try people, and they have to go jail for long periods of time.'"  Seems reasonable that the intermediate trial step would prevent peaceful protesters (e.g., those in Flint) from prison, even in the unlikely event they were arrested in the first place.

That's different from the window smashers, car burners, etc. - in other words, the destructive protesters.

Trump quote:
Quote
Now the harder you are, the tougher you are, the less likely it is that you’re going to be hit. This is a movement. We found out in delivering supplies to various places in various states. You people know about it now, but we found out many things. It’s like a movement. And it’s a movement that if you don’t put it down, it’ll get worse and worse. This is like occupy wall street. It was a disaster until one day somebody said that’s enough. And they just went in and wiped them out. And it’s the last time I heard the name occupy wall street. Until today, when I heard about it, I heard occupy wall street. I haven’t heard about it. I heard about it today for the first time in a long time. It was there for forever it seemed on wall street. They closed up wall street, the financial district of the world. And they had total domination. They were ordering pizzas that were… nobody did anything. And then one day somebody said, that’s enough. You get them out of here within two hours. And it was Bedlam for an hour. Then after that, everything was beautiful. And that was the last time we heard about it. But these are the same people. These are radicals and they’re anarchists.

This gem is from a bit later:
Quote
I have to tell you, I live in Manhattan. What’s going on in Manhattan, I have no idea. New York’s finest, they’ve got to be allowed maybe to do their jobs. I don’t know what’s happening in Manhattan, but it’s terrible. And because it’s New York, because it’s Manhattan, it gets a lot of press. So they really spent a lot of time on it. But New York is going to have to toughen up and we’ll send you National Guard if you want. You have the largest police force in the country, 40,000 people I understand, but what’s going on in New York is terrible. It’s terrible. Of all the places.

This moment was an interesting end to the call:
Quote
Governor Pritzker: (51:41)
Thank you. I wanted to keep this moment, I can’t let it pass, to speak up and say that I’ve been extraordinarily concerned about the rhetoric that’s been used by you. It’s been inflammatory and it’s not okay for that officer to choke George Floyd to death, but we have to call for calm. We have to have police reform called for. We called out our National Guard and our state police, but rhetoric that’s coming out of the White House is making it worse. And I need to say to you that people are feeling real pain out there, that we’ve got to have national leadership in calling for calm and making sure that we’re addressing the concerns of the legitimate peaceful protesters. That will help us to bring order.

Donald Trump: (52:37)
Okay. Well thank you very much, J.B. I don’t like your rhetoric much either because I watched it with respect to the coronavirus, and I don’t like your rhetoric much either. I think you could have done a much better job frankly, but that’s okay. We don’t agree with each other. As far as the [inaudible 00:52:53] with respect to George Floyd, in respect to Officer Floyd, I’ve spoken about it often and I’ve spoken about it with great compassion that I think is a horrible thing that happened and I’ve called it out on numerous occasions in numerous speeches. I even spoke about it at our great rocket launch. I covered it before I covered the rocket. We just sent out a billion dollar rocket, and before I spoke about the rocket in a major speech after the rocket launch, I spoke as to what happened with respect to Mr. Floyd. I thought it was a disgrace. I feel like what happened was a disgrace, but I spoke about it probably as long as I did about the rocket itself. And those police officers, what they did, including the three of them that stood there and watched and maybe even participated, the whole world was disgraced by it, not just our country and the whole world was watching. So nobody can tell me I haven’t spoken about it. I’ve spoken about it at great length, but I will continue to speak about it. But I also have to speak about law and order. We need law and order in our country. And if we don’t have law and order, we don’t have a country. So we need law and order. Okay, who’s next please. #2. #2 please.

Operator: (54:11)
We have no one in queue at this time.

I mean, he talked about it almost as much as he talked about Elon Musk's SpaceX rocket launch (which Trump also thought would be a defining moment of his presidency, even though it was the first commercial/nongovernment manned spaceflight. Dude thinks everything is about him. ). 

If you want to see all of it instead of snippets, see the full transcript here:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-phone-call-transcript-with-governors-george-floyd-protests

TLDR version: You know all those people marching and standing around complaining about how aggressive and indiscriminately violent your police forces seem to be? Do more of that. In fact, I don't think you're being aggressive enough. The handful of civilians who are smashing windows and attacking people? Pin everything happening on them.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2166 on: June 01, 2020, 11:30:03 PM »
Quote from: https://twitter.com/libbygarvey/status/1267621740248776711
We ordered @ArlingtonVaPD to immediately leave DC.  Appalled mutual aid agreement abused to endanger their and others safety for a photo op.

Quote from: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/500600-arlington-withdraws-police-from-dc-after-being-put-in-a
The Arlington County Police Department (ACPD) withdrew its officers from Washington, D.C., Monday night after being “put in a compromising position,” officials said.
[...]
“The County is re-evaluating the agreements that allowed our officers to be put in a compromising position that endangered their health and safety, and that of the people around them, for a purpose not worthy of our mutual aid obligations,” the statement reads.

Dispersing peaceful protestors to set up a photo op is bad policing and Arlington PD recognized that. The Bishop at the church also condemned the photo op.


Ya know that other thread about Covid being the end of Trump? The riots are more likely to be the end of Trump. He came out for the photo op because he was accused of hiding in the basement but he had to smash heads to do so. He's way out of his element.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 11:41:41 PM by bacchi »

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2167 on: June 02, 2020, 06:23:33 AM »
I thought Trump was "way out of his element" during the debates with Clinton.

The Rose Garden thing was dumb and unnecessary. Will it persuade someone who was not already persuaded?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2168 on: June 02, 2020, 07:42:58 AM »
I thought Trump was "way out of his element" during the debates with Clinton.

The Rose Garden thing was dumb and unnecessary. Will it persuade someone who was not already persuaded?

By most accounts there are just ~6% of voters who can be persuaded at this point - a shockingly low percentage. The core question going forward will be “ will ____ cause people to vote/stay-at-home?”

partgypsy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2169 on: June 02, 2020, 11:21:32 AM »
The core question is the majority of people even going to be able to vote this coming election? Or will it only be the right of the privileged? 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2170 on: June 02, 2020, 11:39:40 AM »
The core question is the majority of people even going to be able to vote this coming election? Or will it only be the right of the privileged?

It does seem to raise the specter that the upcoming election could be determined by SCOTUS, should it be even remotely close.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2171 on: June 02, 2020, 12:34:19 PM »
The core question is the majority of people even going to be able to vote this coming election? Or will it only be the right of the privileged?

It does seem to raise the specter that the upcoming election could be determined by SCOTUS, should it be even remotely close.

This is exactly the reason that Kavanaugh was nominated.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2172 on: June 02, 2020, 12:46:57 PM »
I thought Trump was "way out of his element" during the debates with Clinton.

True enough but he always had a plan or idea; it may be useless, like having Mexico pay for the wall, but he has good political instincts that help energize his base and lean voters.

With Covid, and the riots, he seems to be flailing. Nothing he can tweet, and nobody he can fire, will fix the pandemic. Similarly, he doesn't know how to handle the riots, especially when his advisors are either racist, like Miller, or fake economists, like Kudlow (but he was a TV host!).


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2173 on: June 02, 2020, 12:53:56 PM »
I thought Trump was "way out of his element" during the debates with Clinton.

True enough but he always had a plan or idea; it may be useless, like having Mexico pay for the wall, but he has good political instincts that help energize his base and lean voters.

With Covid, and the riots, he seems to be flailing. Nothing he can tweet, and nobody he can fire, will fix the pandemic. Similarly, he doesn't know how to handle the riots, especially when his advisors are either racist, like Miller, or fake economists, like Kudlow (but he was a TV host!).

He even tried his old favourites . . . Mexico China will pay for it!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2174 on: June 02, 2020, 01:05:11 PM »

With Covid, and the riots, he seems to be flailing. Nothing he can tweet, and nobody he can fire, will fix the pandemic. Similarly, he doesn't know how to handle the riots, especially when his advisors are either racist, like Miller, or fake economists, like Kudlow (but he was a TV host!).

This is the predictable result of surrounding oneself with sycophants and no-nothing human props.  No President has had a firm grasp on all the issues he faced during his presidency.  It's simply not possible - the scope of the federal government and the size and diversity of the country are too large.  That's why there's 15 cabinet positions and over 100 federal agencies.  To function well you put competent people in each all working towards a coherent strategy.  Trump has never had a coherent strategy, and he's been less interested in competence than obedience, assuming that his gut instincts could solve any crisis.

Sadly, this isn't even the first time this approach has resulted in huge unforced errors.  His response during Hurricane Maria, the Charlottesville march, his firing of Comey (and saying it was about Russia on national TV), his attempts are repealing the ACA and medicaid expansion, the removal of Captain Crozier over a Covid outbreak, the public firing of .... jeez, so many of his former aids... all caused him more pain than necessary because people who actually knew a great deal about the situations either were ignored or weren't there in the first place.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2175 on: June 03, 2020, 10:38:06 AM »
dominating
https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266917228752056320

i'm not an emotional person by and large, but i can't help but be immensely sad for this country.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2176 on: June 03, 2020, 10:52:21 AM »
So is Kent state and the Vietnam War the historical event they once were?

Sadly seems like 2020 might have all that beat now.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2177 on: June 03, 2020, 11:12:16 AM »
So is Kent state and the Vietnam War the historical event they once were?

Sadly seems like 2020 might have all that beat now.


Time will tell.  Events that seem monumental at the time sometimes wind up being just part of a broader trend.  Others which are overlooked during the moment echo on for ages.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2178 on: June 03, 2020, 11:54:21 AM »
dominating
https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266917228752056320

i'm not an emotional person by and large, but i can't help but be immensely sad for this country.

Disgusting and shocking to the concience. As is Donald Trump talking about "dominating" protesters, and the Secretary of Defense telling U.S. governors they need to "dominate the battlespace," as though he's talking about fighting a foreign war. This is the predictable and regrettable outcome. Bashing peaceful protesters in the head.

We no longer live in the United States of America. We live in a country more akin to Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, the Soviet Union under Stalin -- a.k.a., "America Under Trump."

I say this as a proud, former lifelong officer of the U.S Intelligence Community and Federal Law Enforcement (i.e., not exactly a "libtard" or Antifa). And if anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, they should see how current and former CIA analysts are alarmed at how our country now resembles those dictatorial regimes.

https://www.thehour.com/news/article/CIA-veterans-who-monitored-crackdowns-abroad-see-15312234.php

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2179 on: June 03, 2020, 11:57:40 AM »
It does not seem to occur to Trump that the people protesting are in fact his constituents, the 'people' referenced in the Constitution that he has sworn to defend and uphold.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2180 on: June 03, 2020, 12:02:02 PM »
It does not seem to occur to Trump that the people protesting are in fact his constituents, the 'people' referenced in the Constitution that he has sworn to defend and uphold.

It's the side by side contrast of complaining about fact checking being a burden to free speech and clearing a peaceful protest for a Bible thumping photo op.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2181 on: June 03, 2020, 12:32:56 PM »
This is a long read, but it does an extremely good job of explaining the massive cowardice of Republican leaders in the Trump regime.

"The price of collaboration in America has already turned out to be extraordinarily high... First Trump’s enablers accepted lies about the inauguration; now they accept terrible tragedy and the loss of American leadership in the world. Worse could follow. Come November, will they tolerate—even abet—an assault on the electoral system: open efforts to prevent postal voting, to shut polling stations, to scare people away from voting? Will they countenance violence, as the president’s social-media fans incite demonstrators to launch physical attacks on state and city officials?

Each violation of our Constitution and our civic peace gets absorbed, rationalized, and accepted by people who once upon a time knew better. If, following what is almost certain to be one of the ugliest elections in American history, Trump wins a second term, these people may well accept even worse."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/trumps-collaborators/612250/?fbclid=IwAR10XHAzU7bBea1U5vdoIPWsGGgQyDKnJIJIm3VQKiO2d4kmll9IRkYCuaE

LWYRUP

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2182 on: June 03, 2020, 12:56:42 PM »

"If you don't dominate, you're wasting your time," Stalin Trump said...

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2183 on: June 03, 2020, 01:39:17 PM »
I happened to catch Rod Rosenstein's capitulation to Donald Trump in front of the Senate today. The thought that liberals were ready to protest over his firing at points in the summer of 2018 seems so...misguided.

He admitted not having read the report during his opening statement. It was basically his job to read that report.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2184 on: June 03, 2020, 03:29:25 PM »
dominating
https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266917228752056320

i'm not an emotional person by and large, but i can't help but be immensely sad for this country.

Disgusting and shocking to the concience. As is Donald Trump talking about "dominating" protesters, and the Secretary of Defense telling U.S. governors they need to "dominate the battlespace," as though he's talking about fighting a foreign war. This is the predictable and regrettable outcome. Bashing peaceful protesters in the head.

We no longer live in the United States of America. We live in a country more akin to Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, the Soviet Union under Stalin -- a.k.a., "America Under Trump."

I say this as a proud, former lifelong officer of the U.S Intelligence Community and Federal Law Enforcement (i.e., not exactly a "libtard" or Antifa). And if anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, they should see how current and former CIA analysts are alarmed at how our country now resembles those dictatorial regimes.

https://www.thehour.com/news/article/CIA-veterans-who-monitored-crackdowns-abroad-see-15312234.php

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/2/21277438/police-officer-george-floyd-patrick-skinner-interview-militarization
The link is to a great interview by a former Agency operative who is now a police officer and is disgusted by the entire culture of police being on a war footing with the rest of the public.  I said good bye to a buddy who is retired SF after hearing his opinions on this for the last time. He sincerely believes every protester is Antifa and should be declared terrorists with all the implications that come with that label. Listening to him you'd think the NYPD have been under seige rather than the other way around.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 03:32:01 PM by Travis »

DoubleDown

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2185 on: June 03, 2020, 05:29:07 PM »
dominating
https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266917228752056320

i'm not an emotional person by and large, but i can't help but be immensely sad for this country.

Disgusting and shocking to the concience. As is Donald Trump talking about "dominating" protesters, and the Secretary of Defense telling U.S. governors they need to "dominate the battlespace," as though he's talking about fighting a foreign war. This is the predictable and regrettable outcome. Bashing peaceful protesters in the head.

We no longer live in the United States of America. We live in a country more akin to Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, the Soviet Union under Stalin -- a.k.a., "America Under Trump."

I say this as a proud, former lifelong officer of the U.S Intelligence Community and Federal Law Enforcement (i.e., not exactly a "libtard" or Antifa). And if anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, they should see how current and former CIA analysts are alarmed at how our country now resembles those dictatorial regimes.

https://www.thehour.com/news/article/CIA-veterans-who-monitored-crackdowns-abroad-see-15312234.php

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/2/21277438/police-officer-george-floyd-patrick-skinner-interview-militarization
The link is to a great interview by a former Agency operative who is now a police officer and is disgusted by the entire culture of police being on a war footing with the rest of the public.  I said good bye to a buddy who is retired SF after hearing his opinions on this for the last time. He sincerely believes every protester is Antifa and should be declared terrorists with all the implications that come with that label. Listening to him you'd think the NYPD have been under seige rather than the other way around.

That was a good read, thanks. I never knew Patrick Skinner, I wish I would have.

Sorry to hear about your former buddy. His mindset is all too common among military and police I've known over the years. I'm sure you know given your background that it's not most who think that way, but it's still too common, and not surprising that some people with serious personality or control issues are drawn to those professions.

I remember one guy I once worked with was a former Army Ranger. I asked him what led him to become an Army Ranger, and he answered as serious and straightforward as can be, "I wanted to kill people." I said, "No, seriously..." And he said, "Seriously, I wanted to kill people, and I figured that was the best way to do it."

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2186 on: June 03, 2020, 05:35:52 PM »
I heard something the other day which seems to have captures the shift in police mentality over the last few decades: basically police departments have shifted from a guardian mindset to a warrior stance. Instead of “protect and serve” the culture has become “shock and awe”. And that carries down to the kinds of individuals who want to become police officers

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2187 on: June 03, 2020, 05:48:48 PM »
dominating
https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266917228752056320

i'm not an emotional person by and large, but i can't help but be immensely sad for this country.

Disgusting and shocking to the concience. As is Donald Trump talking about "dominating" protesters, and the Secretary of Defense telling U.S. governors they need to "dominate the battlespace," as though he's talking about fighting a foreign war. This is the predictable and regrettable outcome. Bashing peaceful protesters in the head.

We no longer live in the United States of America. We live in a country more akin to Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, the Soviet Union under Stalin -- a.k.a., "America Under Trump."

I say this as a proud, former lifelong officer of the U.S Intelligence Community and Federal Law Enforcement (i.e., not exactly a "libtard" or Antifa). And if anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, they should see how current and former CIA analysts are alarmed at how our country now resembles those dictatorial regimes.

https://www.thehour.com/news/article/CIA-veterans-who-monitored-crackdowns-abroad-see-15312234.php

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/2/21277438/police-officer-george-floyd-patrick-skinner-interview-militarization
The link is to a great interview by a former Agency operative who is now a police officer and is disgusted by the entire culture of police being on a war footing with the rest of the public.  I said good bye to a buddy who is retired SF after hearing his opinions on this for the last time. He sincerely believes every protester is Antifa and should be declared terrorists with all the implications that come with that label. Listening to him you'd think the NYPD have been under siege rather than the other way around.

That was a good read, thanks. I never knew Patrick Skinner, I wish I would have.

Sorry to hear about your former buddy. His mindset is all too common among military and police I've known over the years. I'm sure you know given your background that it's not most who think that way, but it's still too common, and not surprising that some people with serious personality or control issues are drawn to those professions.

I remember one guy I once worked with was a former Army Ranger. I asked him what led him to become an Army Ranger, and he answered as serious and straightforward as can be, "I wanted to kill people." I said, "No, seriously..." And he said, "Seriously, I wanted to kill people, and I figured that was the best way to do it."

He portrays himself as a warrior/scholar and he's actually a very learned man; however, he can also be your stereotypical "guns, harleys, 'merica!" kind of guy.  Now that he's retired he reverts to that latter characterization more often.  Everything is the fault of Democrats. Everything. Even in the dominantly red state we lived/worked in.  I used to give him the benefit of the doubt when I worked for him because I could tell he was still very keyed up after years of combat. He hated having to take his turn behind a desk and his family forced him to retire.  Now that he's out, I'm tired of hearing it.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2188 on: June 03, 2020, 05:57:14 PM »
I heard something the other day which seems to have captures the shift in police mentality over the last few decades: basically police departments have shifted from a guardian mindset to a warrior stance. Instead of “protect and serve” the culture has become “shock and awe”. And that carries down to the kinds of individuals who want to become police officers

I wonder if the War on Drugs is what started this shift.  No-knock warrants, military gear used in "raids" and the police departments getting to keep proceeds from the drug monies under civil forfeiture laws.
 
Sadly, the us vs. them mentality has been there for decades.  There was that story going around after the National Guard shooting of unarmed students at Kent State, that one of the local cops bragged:  Cops 4, Students 0. 
Police chiefs turn a blind eye and mayors don't want to seem Anti-cop/Anti law and order, so there's no oversight or consequences.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2189 on: June 03, 2020, 06:09:38 PM »
I heard something the other day which seems to have captures the shift in police mentality over the last few decades: basically police departments have shifted from a guardian mindset to a warrior stance. Instead of “protect and serve” the culture has become “shock and awe”. And that carries down to the kinds of individuals who want to become police officers

Yes, exactly. There’s a whole training program called Warrior that teaches them to think and behave that way. It was used in Minneapolis for a long time, then the department banned it, but the police union still uses/endorses it.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2190 on: June 03, 2020, 06:21:32 PM »
I heard something the other day which seems to have captures the shift in police mentality over the last few decades: basically police departments have shifted from a guardian mindset to a warrior stance. Instead of “protect and serve” the culture has become “shock and awe”. And that carries down to the kinds of individuals who want to become police officers

When the NFL finally acknowledged that their players were getting more and more head injuries, some analysts pointed to the increase in padding and better helmets as a cause of those increased brain injuries. Players were carrying out more dangerous tackles and inflicting injuries because they felt they were better protected while doing so.  I think it's a similar phenomenon with police forces and their equipment. When all you have are batons and live ammo, you have to weigh your options. Deescalation and community engagement has a much bigger payoff.  When you have layers of body armor, armored vehicles, and weapons that will only injure instead of kill, you're more comfortable with hitting the easy button and standing back and treating the citizenry like something to be subdued rather than served.  You can say "well I need to be protected," but there's a point where it becomes all about you and not the mission.

A small town I used to live in (population less than 10,000) bought itself a SWAT team shortly after it incorporated. It used to be the jurisdiction of a city of 100,000 maybe 10 minutes down the road.  The two larger cities on either side offered their teams for the rare occasions that they would be needed. Nope. Gotta get some of that tacticool equipment.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2191 on: June 03, 2020, 06:27:24 PM »

I urge arrest, prosecution, and if convicted, punishment of vandals, looters, and arsonists.

And not only because of their patent criminality.

I want them off the streets because their criminality induces fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally protected assembly and speech.

Speaking of inducing fear that has a chilling effect on constitutionally-protected assembly and speech...

How do you feel about the use of tear gas and rubber bullets against non-violent protesters so that the president can take a stroll around outside and pose with 4 of his friends and a Bible for a photo op in front of a nearby church?


 The demonstrators' assembly and speech were lawful.

The peaceable demonstrators near the church posed no "clear and present danger of a serious substantive evil."

The heavy-handed action taken against their  lawful assembly   and speech violates  the First Amendment's Free Speech and Assembly Clauses.

My opposition to this action  is unqualified.

 If it was necessary to clear the way for Trump to walk to the church the personnel in charge ought to have guided the demonstrators away in a reasonable manner within constitutional bounds.

Terminiello is apposite.


Terminiello v. Chicago   (1949)  

Freedom of Speech...is protected against censorship or punishment, unless shown likely to reduce a clear and present danger of a serious substantive evil that rises far above public inconvenience, annoyance, or unrest...There is no room under our Constitution for a more restrictive view.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 06:37:57 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2192 on: June 03, 2020, 07:06:03 PM »
Gassing your own citizens for a photo op. MAGA!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2193 on: June 03, 2020, 07:25:44 PM »
I heard something the other day which seems to have captures the shift in police mentality over the last few decades: basically police departments have shifted from a guardian mindset to a warrior stance. Instead of “protect and serve” the culture has become “shock and awe”. And that carries down to the kinds of individuals who want to become police officers

I wonder if the War on Drugs is what started this shift.  No-knock warrants, military gear used in "raids" and the police departments getting to keep proceeds from the drug monies under civil forfeiture laws.
 
Sadly, the us vs. them mentality has been there for decades.  There was that story going around after the National Guard shooting of unarmed students at Kent State, that one of the local cops bragged:  Cops 4, Students 0. 
Police chiefs turn a blind eye and mayors don't want to seem Anti-cop/Anti law and order, so there's no oversight or consequences.

A soldier in my office (38 years old) never heard of Kent State until I explained it to him yesterday.  Also, he was genuinely confused why the LAPD and NYPD would intentionally beat up protesters. He is VERY good at his job, but damn he's sheltered.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2195 on: June 03, 2020, 08:36:53 PM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/2/21277438/police-officer-george-floyd-patrick-skinner-interview-militarization

Excellent interview.

but when the highest levels act badly, it trickles down. It's extremely hard to change something from the bottom. (I would say he could probably influence those he works with, maybe a few recruits, but it's when they go outside spheres of people like him that it breaks down, and they learn wrong lessons.)

I'm so happy that General Miller resigned. Makes me proud that there are still military bretheren down south that are willing to take the career bullet to make sure the right path is taken.

And if anyone thinks that the Secretary of defence and Trump decided to pivot from saying ''we'll use the military'' to : ''We don't think we'll need/now will we use them'' came out of nowhere, I'd bet large amounts that having one of your highest military members resign while DIRECTLY saying his boss is breaking the law brought this about. (It's crazy, I can't even remember a resignation that pointed the direct supervisor as the reaction when you get to higher echelons.)

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/james-miller-resigns-from-pentagon-slams-esper-for-role-in-trump-photo.html

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''When I joined the Board in early 2014, after leaving government service as Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, I again swore an oath of office, one familiar to you, that includes the commitment to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States . . . and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same.”

You recited that same oath on July 23, 2019, when you were sworn in as Secretary of Defense. On Monday, June 1, 2020, I believe that you violated that oath. Law-abiding protesters just outside the White House were dispersed using tear gas and rubber bullets — not for the sake of safety, but to clear a path for a presidential photo op. You then accompanied President Trump in walking from the White House to St. John’s Episcopal Church for that photo.

President Trump’s actions Monday night violated his oath to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” as well as the First Amendment “right of the people peaceably to assemble.” You may not have been able to stop President Trump from directing this appalling use of force, but you could have chosen to oppose it. Instead, you visibly supported it.''


How is this not huge in the news cycle?!!

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2196 on: June 03, 2020, 10:03:43 PM »
but when the highest levels act badly, it trickles down.
To some degree, yes. But you may forget the Ferguson riots happened under Obama, and led to zero meaningful change - he stopped the shipping of military gear to police forces, but he didn't get the old stuff back from them. Nor did anything else much change. And in fact Trump has signed a prison reform bill. One of the bad things about Trump is that he has no real ideology guiding him, so his administration is chaotic and stupid. But it's also a good thing, since people can slip some good stuff in there and he doesn't care if most of his party hates it. Trump's like that old sexist cliche of the wife who can get her husband to agree to anything so long as she can convince him it was his idea all along. Obama was more intelligent and thus more difficult to persuade to do anything good, but easy to persuade to do something bad, like extrajudicial killings.

Anyway. Police killings of unarmed people and bad handling of the civil unrest following has happened under every US President. It goes beyond whichever rich bunch of clowns happen to be occupying your statehouses at the time. It's cultural, as Skinner describes.

Again and again I have said that you guys focus too much on old Drumpf. He's a corrupt clown, of that there's no doubt. But you had these problems before The Donald and you will have these same problems after him. You need to look to yourselves and to community organisations to deal with your problems, not to a corrupt government.

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2197 on: June 03, 2020, 10:42:56 PM »
Obama did prepare reform, it's called ''Policing in the 21st century''

It's not immediate, but it was a change for the better. But there's nothing to do if when the government changes, and they say : Well, fuck that, we like our police as is.

Presidents don't have all the power, but they sure as hell have a ton. No way helicopters are used as crowd control under Obama. And if someone lower down the food chain allowed it, he's gonna get something rammed up something unpleasant (bureaucratically speaking), and get punished pretty damn fast.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2198 on: June 03, 2020, 10:49:44 PM »
I loved the new statement by Jim Mattis. I hope anyone won't be upset if I paste it in its entirety.

Quote
Marine Corps General James Mattis
Commander of the United States Joint Forces Command under G.W. Bush
Commander of the United States Central Command under Obama
Secretary of Defence under Trump

In Union There Is Strength

I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.

When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.

We must reject any thinking of our cities as a “battlespace” that our uniformed military is called upon to “dominate.” At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.

James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that “America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat.” We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law.

Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi slogan for destroying us…was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.’” We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.

We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.

Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 10:54:58 PM by sherr »

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2199 on: June 04, 2020, 05:34:13 AM »
If Esper thinks he can keep his job with Trump and also keep his honor and principles, he need only look at Rod Rosenstein.