Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297394 times)

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1700 on: April 26, 2020, 01:50:48 PM »
Who or what do you anticipate will take over the role currently occupied by the United STates, @LennStar ?

The US role during the Trump years shows that they can stop doing everything, and things continue. There will always be someone ready to take influence.

Iím not disputing that. HOwever, that doesnít answer the question. 

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1701 on: April 27, 2020, 05:26:44 AM »
Who or what do you anticipate will take over the role currently occupied by the United STates, @LennStar ?

The US role during the Trump years shows that they can stop doing everything, and things continue. There will always be someone ready to take influence.

Iím not disputing that. HOwever, that doesnít answer the question.

It does, if you accept the answer that nobody HAS to. What obligatory thing is the US doing that must be done?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1702 on: April 27, 2020, 05:41:57 AM »
Who or what do you anticipate will take over the role currently occupied by the United STates, @LennStar ?

The US role during the Trump years shows that they can stop doing everything, and things continue. There will always be someone ready to take influence.

Iím not disputing that. HOwever, that doesnít answer the question.

It does, if you accept the answer that nobody HAS to. What obligatory thing is the US doing that must be done?
Leading an effective, early, science-based intervention on COVID-19, in the same way you did for Ebola, would have been nice.

Pushing forward on climate change action would be nice too, as would working on nuclear non-proliferation.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1703 on: April 27, 2020, 06:34:14 AM »
Who or what do you anticipate will take over the role currently occupied by the United STates, @LennStar ?
China.

People
Economy
Political Know-How.

Not that I look extremely precogniscient saying that. That China takes over around 2030 - 2050 is "common knowledge" since the 19XXs.
btw. if you are a fan of epic Science Fiction, there is a series by David Wingrove about world spanning China, how they rewrote history and so on.

It won't be China all-at-once in every sphere of influence.

It will be fragments. Russia gains influence here. Europe beefs up its presence there. China looms as a source of potential in the future. The alternative to US global hegemony is a competition of Great Powers, a la nineteenth century.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1704 on: April 27, 2020, 07:31:44 AM »
It will be interesting to see if the loss of power/status also comes with the loss of immunity that US military, presidents, and CIA members have enjoyed for war crimes committed in the name of the country.

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1705 on: April 27, 2020, 07:35:53 AM »
It'll take a long time before the US has that little power GStv, they will gradually lose influence, not fall off a cliff and everyone jumps on the corpse.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1706 on: April 27, 2020, 07:42:02 AM »
China will not dominate as the US has in the past. We are at the peak of world resource consumption. The odd GFC or pandemic only puts it off a year or two, but doesn't change the overall trajectory. Resource consumption will decline because production will decline. The essence of a Great Power is that it has X% of the world population but takes a larger share than that of the world's resources. But 2X% of "not much" is still "not much."

After the GFC and the climate wars (which is what the wars in Syria and Libya really are, and which will be followed by more) there will be resource conflicts, just as much within countries as between them. The world simply does not have enough resources for all of the US and EU to be tooling around in electric cars, let alone China and all the rest. There will be a drop to a lower level of consumption, followed by earnest promises of rising back up again (not only America will want to be Great Again), a plateau for some time, and then another drop, and so on.

Our children will grow old to a very different world to the endless growth and consumption one we were promised. There will never be bases on Mars. As Kunstler put it: This is not the future we ordered. Our days of happy motoring and the 3,000 mile caesar salad are passing.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1707 on: April 27, 2020, 08:06:48 AM »
I'm wondering if privileged Americans aren't going to have to finally learn some humility when interacting with foreigners. Assuming we ever travel again.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1708 on: April 27, 2020, 09:23:17 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1709 on: April 27, 2020, 09:41:31 AM »
It will be fragments. Russia gains influence here. Europe beefs up its presence there. China looms as a source of potential in the future.
No, it had loomed 30 years ago. And since everyone thought they are still looming, everyone who looks now is baffled that they are already everywhere.

Europe has a conflict if to allow a certain company to provide G5 equipment, because of syping fears.
The port of Athens belongs to a Chinese company.
There is a ten thousand mile railroad from China to Vienna now.
China is building ports, streets and railroads all over Africa. Chinese companies do that, but African states are paying for it. With debt. Which is the best leash there is, as the USA and Europe is well aware.
China has the most new patents in the world
China has a military base outside it's borders. The extraordinarity of that fact is likely lost to a US citizen whose country has several hundreds, but this is basically the official proclamation of world power status.

Quote
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy.
Why do those sentences remind me of the old classic "the decline and fall of the Roman Empire"? Hm....

Anyway, the USA needs more goods from China than China needs goods from the US (especially if we are talking about electronics in "smart" bombs and the like). That is what Trump's Trade War is all about, and also why it doesn't work as he thought dreamed.

The worst thing you could do on international relations is to underestimate China. That was what the more intelligent foreign observers said 20 years ago. About 5 years ago some politicians finally got the message. We have to try to stop China from buying Africa they said.
2017 China opened the military base in Djibouti.

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1710 on: April 27, 2020, 10:09:58 AM »
Yeah, China is a growing power and working to build global influence, they are definitely emerging as the distant #2 superpower, but let's not kid ourselves here, the collapse of the USA and the rise of China as the dominant superpower is not imminent.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1711 on: April 27, 2020, 10:16:24 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

+1

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1712 on: April 27, 2020, 11:48:35 AM »
Who or what do you anticipate will take over the role currently occupied by the United STates, @LennStar ?

The US role during the Trump years shows that they can stop doing everything, and things continue. There will always be someone ready to take influence.

Iím not disputing that. HOwever, that doesnít answer the question.

It does, if you accept the answer that nobody HAS to. What obligatory thing is the US doing that must be done?

To be clear, it's not obligatory that the US (or any other single nation) does certain things, but rather that for the last several decades it simply HAS been the US.

Also, I'm not a proponent that the US *should* have this role... particularly not now, and not given the US's stances on international policy as of late.

A few things specifically (far from a comprehensive list):
World Reserve Currency.  There's a few threads on this here and bogelheads, but business (particularly commodities) are done overwhelmingly on US dollars... and it's unclear how that could work without the dollar.  The fact that the US is the only country which can create monetary policy on the sole reserve currency is not lost on teh Fed.

Internaional commerce, both shipping and air-traffic.  Something like 80% of shipping traffic in internatinoal waters is overseen by the US.  No other country (currently) has a navy which can ensure safe passage of ships across the globe.  Likewise, almost all trans-oceanic flights (both commericial and cargo) are overseen by the FAA. Air Traffic Control, keeping track of flights, insuring international regulations has all been under the US.  And we've mucked it up, too (see: Boeing).  But which country(ies) take over this responsibility - and how - isn't clear.

Then there are all these international organizations.  While I strongly disagree with our president on the manner of funding or the role of other countries, it's a simple fact that - as the worlds largest economy* - we supply a lion's share of the funding for NATO, the UN, (until very recently) WHO, IMF, etc.  Partly as a result we arrogantly assume we get the most influence (and often we have).  Again, I'm not arguing that the US should have these outsized roles, but should this wane, what happens to those organizations and their budgets?  Will they shrink dramatically, or is there another country or group willing to replace the US?

bottom line:  Every time the subject of the US no longer being an/the international leader there's a lack of agreement on how a world functions if/when the US no longer serves as teh reeserve currency, the overseer (often a bad thing) or international commerce, or the biggest pillar (again, often not in a good way) of so many internatinoal organizations.

Additional thought:  Ever since WWII there's always been another country or bloc which were going to topple the US's international standing.  Early on after teh wars many assumed Great Brittan would re-claim it's global role.  Many then feared /thought the soviet union.  Japan was almost certainly to overtake the US (according to most financial articles of the time) until their "lost decade" (which wasn't really lost).  For the last 20 years it's been China... except now they might be more shaky than we realized.  During the boom times the E.U. was also mentioned, up until the crises of the last decade, and future-thinkers have often India might get there. 

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1713 on: April 27, 2020, 12:02:02 PM »
Fair points nereo, but since the US has lost it's monstrous lead in everything compared to the world (40% of the world economy to 20%) It doesn't need to be a single bloc/country that has to take over.

It just needs for the US to stop caring, or to lose the leverage it had.

I'd bet on the UN / other multi-national groups gaining more ground to cover the hole if the US stops.

every time the world leader loses it's superpower status, things shake up, and it's not always clear to people at the time who'll be the next one. (some people can figure it out, but just as many smart people can't, so it's difficult to know until hindsight kicks in!)

Just take a look at India's GDP: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=IN
It's not crystal clear when that ridiculous growth will slow down, but every year it doesn't, the USA's share of the world GDP gets smaller.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1714 on: April 27, 2020, 12:20:07 PM »
Fair points nereo, but since the US has lost it's monstrous lead in everything compared to the world (40% of the world economy to 20%) It doesn't need to be a single bloc/country that has to take over.

It just needs for the US to stop caring, or to lose the leverage it had.


I donít disagree with you - my question is simply who/what will take over

Quote
Iíd bet on the UN / other multi-national groups gaining more ground to cover the hole if the US stops.
Ok, thatís the most direct answer.  The biggest challenge in my mind is how to replace the USD as a reserve currency.  Many thought the Euro might have that potential, but in the last decade thatís seemed like more of a nightmare scenario than an alternative.  To paraphrase some of the other threads, the major challenges are liquidity (you need $trillions), trust and some level of transparency/independence. 

Iím also skeptical of the UN taking over a larger role precisely when several of the largest economies (e.g. the US, China, Russia) are moving away from them, and the interests of EU countries and the UN arenít always in sync: itís not even clear what the E.U wil look like in 5 years, let alone the UN

The GDP of the US is certainly falling relative to total GP, but a key distinction is that - other than China - itís largely not being supplanted by another country.  Rather, there are over a dozen countries which have made the jump to ďdevelopedĒ in the last couple of decades and a number of others on the cusp.  So the international table is getting more crowded.  And thatís a good thing.  At the same time the US economy hasnít been shrinking (current quarter excepted) - it might not have as large of a percentage of the global economy, but it has even more in absolute terms than it did even a generation ago.  But if the age of the US is over, who takes over these roles, and how is that transition made? 

I guess one of my key points is that thereís a great deal of inertia in the international world, and having had an outside amount of the global economy the US still retains a controlling stake in a lot of the levers of international relations. 

DoubleDown

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1715 on: April 27, 2020, 12:29:57 PM »

I'd bet on the UN / other multi-national groups gaining more ground to cover the hole if the US stops.


Don't tell my (elderly) mother this; when I brought up the subject of Trump and his handling of the coronavirus to date, she said, "I don't agree with everything Trump does, but at least he doesn't want to subject us all to the "One World Order" like I hear Joe Biden would do."

Ugh. I'm continually baffled how this kind of crap gains traction. And yet, here's my own mother believing we're all going to be under the iron rule of the U.N. Thought Police, where all religion, capitalism, and independent thought is strictly forbidden.

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1716 on: April 27, 2020, 01:24:54 PM »

I guess one of my key points is that thereís a great deal of inertia in the international world, and having had an outside amount of the global economy the US still retains a controlling stake in a lot of the levers of international relations.

Doesn't have to be the UN, just the same sort of Multi-nation agreement unit. Or an assortment of groups that join together. China leads it's neighbors, India theirs, US North America, Brazil South.. etc.

Or, the world will become more adult, and act like Scandinavian countries. Or Switzerland. Or the nation of Free Luna, and will instate the death penalty for rudeness.


nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1717 on: April 27, 2020, 01:41:23 PM »

I guess one of my key points is that thereís a great deal of inertia in the international world, and having had an outside amount of the global economy the US still retains a controlling stake in a lot of the levers of international relations.

Doesn't have to be the UN, just the same sort of Multi-nation agreement unit. Or an assortment of groups that join together. China leads it's neighbors, India theirs, US North America, Brazil South.. etc.

Or, the world will become more adult, and act like Scandinavian countries. Or Switzerland. Or the nation of Free Luna, and will instate the death penalty for rudeness.

Fine by me... hurry up and put that together, please.  Iím not terribly confident in having the US be the dealer indefinitely.

Oh... but letís please not figure this out post-hoc. If thereís one thing corruption loves itís a power vacuum. (Come to think of it, that may be how we got here in the first place...)

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1718 on: April 27, 2020, 02:16:32 PM »
Slowly getting better though, like sewage. And toilets.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1719 on: April 27, 2020, 02:47:12 PM »
The US will be the world leader forever, just like the Romans, the Spanish, the Danish, the Brits, etc... .

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1720 on: April 27, 2020, 03:45:18 PM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

+1

It's not so much that Trump is a moron.       It's more that the US is fragmenting to the left and the right and losing the ability to do stuff.   For example the Boeing 737Max fiasco.   The 5g wireless fiasco.   Deadlocks in the house of representatives.     The fragmented, ineffective response to COVID-19.    None of these are the acts of a world leading country...


Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1721 on: April 27, 2020, 04:30:27 PM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy.
The Soviet Union once had a very strong military. But if you can't pay the troops, eventually they give up and go home.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1722 on: April 27, 2020, 06:42:53 PM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1723 on: April 27, 2020, 07:20:54 PM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1724 on: April 27, 2020, 07:21:22 PM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Nato does exercises and operations in order to curb pirates. It doesn't need to be done everywhere, but there are lots of areas that require active military protection to reduce and stop pirate activity (coast of somalia, africa for example)

US does by far the Lion's share of everything in Nato.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1725 on: April 28, 2020, 02:39:13 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?
Also see: South China Sea.  Also the Arctic.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1726 on: April 28, 2020, 03:19:02 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?
Also see: South China Sea.  Also the Arctic.

I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1727 on: April 28, 2020, 03:27:24 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1728 on: April 28, 2020, 03:35:18 AM »
It is characteristic of every empire to assure itself enthusiastically that its imperial rule is necessary for the peace and good of the world.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1729 on: April 28, 2020, 03:37:25 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.
It's like they invented the English language, too.

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1730 on: April 28, 2020, 03:40:19 AM »
I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1731 on: April 28, 2020, 05:26:13 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

No, not at all.  you're missing entirely what's being said.  The US currently does these things, in large part because that's been their role since WWII.  It doesn't mean they have to do these things, or that other nations or groups couldn't.  They simply haven't, and currently don't have the bandwidth to do so.

I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....
Bingo.  Also, it should be pointed out that the US does these things first and foremost because it's in the interests of the United States.  It's always been about protecting [our] global commerce.

Looking at it from a slightly New Zealand perspective, when freight is shipped to NZ from Bangkok or into the Med that route is largely secured via the US Navy and the US-backed NATO.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1732 on: April 28, 2020, 09:45:05 AM »
It is characteristic of every empire to assure itself enthusiastically that its imperial rule is necessary for the peace and good of the world.
That for me is the most funny point of the Brexit. There seem to be a sizeable number of people who think that NOW Britain will regain her rightful place in the world as the dominating power..... or something like that. Britain is needed in the world, they say.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1733 on: April 28, 2020, 03:19:50 PM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

No, not at all.  you're missing entirely what's being said.  The US currently does these things, in large part because that's been their role since WWII.  It doesn't mean they have to do these things, or that other nations or groups couldn't.  They simply haven't, and currently don't have the bandwidth to do so.


I have the impression Eurocontrol is responsible for air traffic control over Europe.   How does the FAA fit into this picture?

Wrenchturner

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1734 on: April 28, 2020, 08:47:00 PM »
What a complete idiot.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1735 on: April 28, 2020, 10:00:00 PM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!

GreenEggs

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1736 on: April 28, 2020, 10:40:21 PM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!


Trump would'a FIRED him for wearing a mask! 

Wrenchturner

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1737 on: April 28, 2020, 10:46:01 PM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!

Even if it made sense it would be a shitty reason.  People want to embrace their dying family members right now too, but they don't get to.  The tonedeafness is shocking.  I'm also surprised that none of the staff said anything, and none of the patients either.  He should have been refused entry based on security protocols but I'm not blaming the Mayo clinic here.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1738 on: April 28, 2020, 11:17:03 PM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!

Even if it made sense it would be a shitty reason.  People want to embrace their dying family members right now too, but they don't get to.  The tonedeafness is shocking.  I'm also surprised that none of the staff said anything, and none of the patients either.  He should have been refused entry based on security protocols but I'm not blaming the Mayo clinic here.

Above and beyond security at that clinic, it is a terrible image for the supposed lead of the task force!!

Wrenchturner

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1739 on: April 28, 2020, 11:56:37 PM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!

Even if it made sense it would be a shitty reason.  People want to embrace their dying family members right now too, but they don't get to.  The tonedeafness is shocking.  I'm also surprised that none of the staff said anything, and none of the patients either.  He should have been refused entry based on security protocols but I'm not blaming the Mayo clinic here.

Above and beyond security at that clinic, it is a terrible image for the supposed lead of the task force!!

It puts him, his family and people around him at risk, it sends the COMPLETE wrong message to the average joe who already didn't want to wear a mask, it emboldens the deniers, it shows his incompetence when his response is idiotic, it shows ignorance to the probabilistic and statistical nature of this COVID problem, it shows contempt for the Mayo clinic and all its staff and patients, it shows contempt for basic procedural compliance, etc etc etc.

I would expect to see this type of behavior in a developing country.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1740 on: April 29, 2020, 04:06:16 AM »
I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....

Oh how wonderful to know that the USA is protecting us all from our biggest trading partner.[eye rolling] Could I ask that you please refrain from doing a Korea/Vietnam/Kuwait/Afghanistan/Iraq on them??? Some of us actually like China and have a good relationship with them!

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1741 on: April 29, 2020, 04:08:53 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

No, not at all.  you're missing entirely what's being said.  The US currently does these things, in large part because that's been their role since WWII.  It doesn't mean they have to do these things, or that other nations or groups couldn't.  They simply haven't, and currently don't have the bandwidth to do so.

I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....
Bingo.  Also, it should be pointed out that the US does these things first and foremost because it's in the interests of the United States.  It's always been about protecting [our] global commerce.

Looking at it from a slightly New Zealand perspective, when freight is shipped to NZ from Bangkok or into the Med that route is largely secured via the US Navy and the US-backed NATO.

What a lot of utter bollocks. Feel free to take the US Navy and shove it where the sun don't shine. Pretty sure we'll all get along just fine without some self declared and painfully annoying "big brother".

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1742 on: April 29, 2020, 04:10:59 AM »
It is characteristic of every empire to assure itself enthusiastically that its imperial rule is necessary for the peace and good of the world.

Lol@ empire. Takes more than starting a bunch of fights you can't finish and introducing the world to the 5 gallon serving of coca cola.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1743 on: April 29, 2020, 05:24:40 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

No, not at all.  you're missing entirely what's being said.  The US currently does these things, in large part because that's been their role since WWII.  It doesn't mean they have to do these things, or that other nations or groups couldn't.  They simply haven't, and currently don't have the bandwidth to do so.

I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....
Bingo.  Also, it should be pointed out that the US does these things first and foremost because it's in the interests of the United States.  It's always been about protecting [our] global commerce.

Looking at it from a slightly New Zealand perspective, when freight is shipped to NZ from Bangkok or into the Med that route is largely secured via the US Navy and the US-backed NATO.

What a lot of utter bollocks. Feel free to take the US Navy and shove it where the sun don't shine. Pretty sure we'll all get along just fine without some self declared and painfully annoying "big brother".

Again, you are taking offense and not listening to whatís being said. 
The US does this because it has been in the USís best interests. Some Neo-cons wax-poetic about this being for the Ďnew world orderí but mostly thatís BS to justify some pretty terribly actions.  Itís certainly allowed the US to force itís will and foreign policies on other countries throughout the world. 

There is no reason why these services couldnít be done by another country or countries. But so far it hasnít played out that way.  We can postulate as to why but that doesnít change what currently is.  Iíve said multiple times that Iím not a proponent of the status-quo, Iím just explaining comments made up thread.  And that persistent status-quo is that the US has been in command of most international airspace and water.

js82

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1744 on: April 29, 2020, 06:47:34 AM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!

Even if it made sense it would be a shitty reason.  People want to embrace their dying family members right now too, but they don't get to.  The tonedeafness is shocking.  I'm also surprised that none of the staff said anything, and none of the patients either.  He should have been refused entry based on security protocols but I'm not blaming the Mayo clinic here.

Above and beyond security at that clinic, it is a terrible image for the supposed lead of the task force!!

It puts him, his family and people around him at risk, it sends the COMPLETE wrong message to the average joe who already didn't want to wear a mask, it emboldens the deniers, it shows his incompetence when his response is idiotic, it shows ignorance to the probabilistic and statistical nature of this COVID problem, it shows contempt for the Mayo clinic and all its staff and patients, it shows contempt for basic procedural compliance, etc etc etc.

I would expect to see this type of behavior in a developing country.

Bolded part hits the nail on the head.  Leaders leading by example goes a long way towards getting others to buy in to their messaging.

While the reasoning published to justify it (non-N95 masks mostly protect others from YOU, Pence is tested regularly and hence is nearly certain to be negative) is pretty technically sound, the optics and message it sends are terrible.  Good leaders don't just tell others what to do, they lead by example.  That's particularly true during this crisis, where individual behaviors are a big part of reducing the risk of spread.  And most of us don't have access to a 5-minute Covid test whenever we want it, so we can't take Pence's approach.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1745 on: April 29, 2020, 06:51:21 AM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!

Even if it made sense it would be a shitty reason.  People want to embrace their dying family members right now too, but they don't get to.  The tonedeafness is shocking.  I'm also surprised that none of the staff said anything, and none of the patients either.  He should have been refused entry based on security protocols but I'm not blaming the Mayo clinic here.

The Mayo Clinic sent out a tweet after Penceís visit clarifying that they did tell him he needed to wear a mask.

... and then they deleted the tweet. Cowards.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1746 on: April 29, 2020, 07:40:16 AM »
I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....

Oh how wonderful to know that the USA is protecting us all from our biggest trading partner.[eye rolling] Could I ask that you please refrain from doing a Korea/Vietnam/Kuwait/Afghanistan/Iraq on them??? Some of us actually like China and have a good relationship with them!

Not protecting trade from China. Protecting trade from non-state actors, or--as they used to be known--"Pirates".

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1747 on: April 29, 2020, 09:55:53 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  Itís also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  Thereís a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

No, not at all.  you're missing entirely what's being said.  The US currently does these things, in large part because that's been their role since WWII.  It doesn't mean they have to do these things, or that other nations or groups couldn't.  They simply haven't, and currently don't have the bandwidth to do so.

I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....
Bingo.  Also, it should be pointed out that the US does these things first and foremost because it's in the interests of the United States.  It's always been about protecting [our] global commerce.

Looking at it from a slightly New Zealand perspective, when freight is shipped to NZ from Bangkok or into the Med that route is largely secured via the US Navy and the US-backed NATO.

What a lot of utter bollocks. Feel free to take the US Navy and shove it where the sun don't shine. Pretty sure we'll all get along just fine without some self declared and painfully annoying "big brother".

Nope, you won't. The US pulling out would create a power vacuum that someone else would fill.

Maybe we need a WW3 for people to remember why we have global networks like the UN and why organizations like NATO are so important. We are in an unprecedented time of peace globally and that's largely because NATO (which is largely led by the USA) decides who is allowed to wage war and who is not. Early post-war years like 1946 the battle related deaths from wars globally was over 1 million. In 2016 it was 87K.  Sure, there's poor decisions made and there's still small wars, but the planet has never been this peaceful.

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1748 on: April 29, 2020, 10:34:22 AM »
What a complete idiot.

He wanted to be able to look people in the eye. NEVER FUCKING MKND THAT THOSE VERY PEOPLE WERE WEARING THEIR MASKS!!

Even if it made sense it would be a shitty reason.  People want to embrace their dying family members right now too, but they don't get to.  The tonedeafness is shocking.  I'm also surprised that none of the staff said anything, and none of the patients either.  He should have been refused entry based on security protocols but I'm not blaming the Mayo clinic here.

The Mayo Clinic sent out a tweet after Penceís visit clarifying that they did tell him he needed to wear a mask.

... and then they deleted the tweet. Cowards.

Cowardly but smart.

We have a bully President and Mayo gets most of their R&D funding from the feds. Trump would threaten to cut it and then Mayo would have to lawyer up.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1749 on: April 29, 2020, 12:00:25 PM »
Oh how wonderful to know that the USA is protecting us all from our biggest trading partner.[eye rolling] Could I ask that you please refrain from doing a Korea/Vietnam/Kuwait/Afghanistan/Iraq on them??? Some of us actually like China and have a good relationship with them!
Of course you may ask.