Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297297 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1600 on: April 21, 2020, 10:31:56 AM »
i don't have a problem with people wanting to go to church as long as the are responsible for the consequences. if i was a church goer and i felt the need to be in church despite the quarantine i shouldn't expect the local hospital to treat me if i come down with the virus. with freedom comes responsibility.

If you want to be free to spread disease with all of the other worshipers of whichever deity you've settled on, that's fine.  But you shouldn't be free to go to any other building in public.  No grocery shopping, no restaurants, no walking around outside, no accepting deliveries of any kind.  You should really be required to stay together in the place of worship for the duration of the quarantine.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1601 on: April 21, 2020, 10:45:56 AM »
i don't have a problem with people wanting to go to church as long as the are responsible for the consequences. if i was a church goer and i felt the need to be in church despite the quarantine i shouldn't expect the local hospital to treat me if i come down with the virus. with freedom comes responsibility.

If you want to be free to spread disease with all of the other worshipers of whichever deity you've settled on, that's fine.  But you shouldn't be free to go to any other building in public.  No grocery shopping, no restaurants, no walking around outside, no accepting deliveries of any kind.  You should really be required to stay together in the place of worship for the duration of the quarantine.

They could buy insurance or bond up. What's the cost of a $10M negligent death pay-out policy based on a .5% (?) mortality rate?

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1602 on: April 21, 2020, 11:09:36 AM »
i don't have a problem with people wanting to go to church as long as the are responsible for the consequences. if i was a church goer and i felt the need to be in church despite the quarantine i shouldn't expect the local hospital to treat me if i come down with the virus. with freedom comes responsibility.

If you want to be free to spread disease with all of the other worshipers of whichever deity you've settled on, that's fine.  But you shouldn't be free to go to any other building in public.  No grocery shopping, no restaurants, no walking around outside, no accepting deliveries of any kind.  You should really be required to stay together in the place of worship for the duration of the quarantine.

They could buy insurance or bond up. What's the cost of a $10M negligent death pay-out policy based on a .5% (?) mortality rate?
requiring church insurance seems about as probable as requiring firearm insurance.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1603 on: April 21, 2020, 12:18:58 PM »
On the one hand you have moronic churches that are holding hundreds or thousands of member services with no safeguards. On the other extreme you have churches having drive in meetings with people getting tickets for coming even if they keep their doors and windows closed at all times and listen to it over the radio. I've never heard anyone defend the churches in the former except one person defending their ability to do it constitutionally but not their decision to do it or the pastor personally. It's instances like the second one that generate antagonistic feelings and are passed around on social media as evidence of the government targeting churches. Like anything else, it's all in which examples you want to bring out and what your biases are.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1604 on: April 21, 2020, 12:32:27 PM »
On the one hand you have moronic churches that are holding hundreds or thousands of member services with no safeguards. On the other extreme you have churches having drive in meetings with people getting tickets for coming even if they keep their doors and windows closed at all times and listen to it over the radio. I've never heard anyone defend the churches in the former except one person defending their ability to do it constitutionally but not their decision to do it or the pastor personally. It's instances like the second one that generate antagonistic feelings and are passed around on social media as evidence of the government targeting churches. Like anything else, it's all in which examples you want to bring out and what your biases are.

This is true. And I think part of the problem is that the biases are strongly linked to politics and cultural divides. The whole narrative of attack on religion (eg War on Christmas, etc) is in part fomented by those attmpting to rally and drive a base. Those same groups are coopting the pandemic for political purposes. See Jerry Falwell and Liberty University, see the large number of Trump 2020 posters at the protests that are supposedly about governor level social restrictions for public safety. Honestly, countries that have taken a non-partisan approach to dealing with coronavirus are doing FAR better than the US. The US is likely to have some of the worst numbers in the industrialized world by the end of this in part due to the politicization of the crisis preventing effective cooperation. The outcomes of it are horrifying, and the political cynicism and hollow morals required to trade lives for minor political game is galling.

js82

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1605 on: April 21, 2020, 03:45:08 PM »
On the one hand you have moronic churches that are holding hundreds or thousands of member services with no safeguards. On the other extreme you have churches having drive in meetings with people getting tickets for coming even if they keep their doors and windows closed at all times and listen to it over the radio. I've never heard anyone defend the churches in the former except one person defending their ability to do it constitutionally but not their decision to do it or the pastor personally. It's instances like the second one that generate antagonistic feelings and are passed around on social media as evidence of the government targeting churches. Like anything else, it's all in which examples you want to bring out and what your biases are.

My general stance on social distancing is that we shouldn't prosecute people that are making good-faith efforts to comply with the spirit of the law, even if they're not executing it 100% perfectly.  This doesn't just apply to churches, but your case above is an excellent example.

Go after people that are blatantly disregarding rules and encouraging others to disregard them, not the ones who are trying to do the right thing while living their lives as best they can.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 04:45:42 PM by js82 »

PKFFW

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1606 on: April 21, 2020, 04:21:39 PM »
with freedom comes responsibility.
Surely you jest?  The USA seems to be built on the concept of rights/freedom without responsibility!

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1607 on: April 21, 2020, 05:36:06 PM »
On the one hand you have moronic churches that are holding hundreds or thousands of member services with no safeguards. On the other extreme you have churches having drive in meetings with people getting tickets for coming even if they keep their doors and windows closed at all times and listen to it over the radio. I've never heard anyone defend the churches in the former except one person defending their ability to do it constitutionally but not their decision to do it or the pastor personally. It's instances like the second one that generate antagonistic feelings and are passed around on social media as evidence of the government targeting churches. Like anything else, it's all in which examples you want to bring out and what your biases are.

My general stance on social distancing is that we shouldn't prosecute people that are making good-faith efforts to comply with the spirit of the law, even if they're not executing it 100% perfectly.  This doesn't just apply to churches, but your case above is an excellent example.

Go after people that are blatantly disregarding rules and encouraging others to disregard them, not the ones who are trying to do the right thing while living their lives as best they can.

My view is that most of these aren't making good faith efforts, they are looking for every loophole.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1608 on: April 21, 2020, 06:18:02 PM »
Trump (the Company) Asks Trump (the Administration) for Hotel Relief

From the article:

Quote
Some of Palm Beach County’s commissioners worry that if they don’t give the president’s company extra time to make lease payments, the county could anger the president and lose out on federal assistance to fight the coronavirus, according to a county official who wasn’t authorized to speak publicly.

Quid pro quo, yet again.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1609 on: April 21, 2020, 07:00:19 PM »
Trump (the Company) Asks Trump (the Administration) for Hotel Relief

From the article:

Quote
Some of Palm Beach County’s commissioners worry that if they don’t give the president’s company extra time to make lease payments, the county could anger the president and lose out on federal assistance to fight the coronavirus, according to a county official who wasn’t authorized to speak publicly.

Quid pro quo, yet again.

And why wouldn't it be?  Republicans in power have told the president that he can do any quid pro quo he wants with no consequences and told anyone who has a problem with that to fuck right off.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1610 on: April 21, 2020, 07:21:37 PM »
It’s as if his impeachment trial (and Republican’s decision that he did not enter into a quid-pro-quo regarding Ukraine) did nothing to chastise this president. 

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1611 on: April 21, 2020, 07:43:43 PM »
It’s as if his impeachment trial (and Republican’s decision that he did not enter into a quid-pro-quo regarding Ukraine) did nothing to chastise this president.

He doesn’t ever learn because there are never negative consequences.

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1612 on: April 21, 2020, 07:52:24 PM »
I only skimmed the article, but does it support the accusation here?  Eric Trump appears to be asking for the company to receive the same treatment as others who are in the same situation.  Prima facie, that seems appropriate.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1613 on: April 21, 2020, 08:42:36 PM »
with freedom comes responsibility.
Surely you jest?  The USA seems to be built on the concept of rights/freedom without responsibility!

I can't find the author, but I heard a quote years ago describing Americans as not wanting liberty, but license.  The Constitution says nothing of doing anything responsibly, therefore I have no legal requirement to be responsible. Acting for the greater good is something hippy Europeans do, not freedom-loving Americans. My rights are my [me, personally. Screw everybody else] rights - period.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1614 on: April 21, 2020, 10:29:50 PM »
with freedom comes responsibility.
Surely you jest?  The USA seems to be built on the concept of rights/freedom without responsibility!

I can't find the author, but I heard a quote years ago describing Americans as not wanting liberty, but license.  The Constitution says nothing of doing anything responsibly, therefore I have no legal requirement to be responsible. Acting for the greater good is something hippy Europeans do, not freedom-loving Americans. My rights are my [me, personally. Screw everybody else] rights - period.
The shorthand for that appears to be “Rugged Individualism.”

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1615 on: April 21, 2020, 10:37:22 PM »
with freedom comes responsibility.
Surely you jest?  The USA seems to be built on the concept of rights/freedom without responsibility!

I can't find the author, but I heard a quote years ago describing Americans as not wanting liberty, but license.  The Constitution says nothing of doing anything responsibly, therefore I have no legal requirement to be responsible. Acting for the greater good is something hippy Europeans do, not freedom-loving Americans. My rights are my [me, personally. Screw everybody else] rights - period.
The shorthand for that appears to be “Rugged Individualism.”
"I hate terrorists, but I'm gonna become one to show you all how great it is to be a freedom loving American!"  Enjoy my COVID-19!!!

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1616 on: April 21, 2020, 11:42:21 PM »
The shorthand for that appears to be “Rugged Individualism.”
Claiming rights while evading responsibilities isn't very rugged, it's more bureaucratic.

America: home of bureaucratic individualism.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1617 on: April 22, 2020, 03:36:18 AM »
The shorthand for that appears to be “Rugged Individualism.”
Claiming rights while evading responsibilities isn't very rugged, it's more bureaucratic.

America: home of bureaucratic individualism.

It certainly isn't communistic, and that is the main point, right?


In an article about the milk tea alliance I just saw this, and it somehow reminded me of the Trump fans and their divide to the "libs":
Quote
Chinese netizens hopped the country’s Great Firewall to defend CCP-endorsed political views and push back against perceived critics, but found that rhetorical attacks rooted in patriotism and nationalism offered weak ammunition in the face of a self-aware citizenry that doesn’t conflate personal identity with that of their nation.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 03:58:40 AM by LennStar »

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1618 on: April 22, 2020, 06:06:14 AM »
It’s as if his impeachment trial (and Republican’s decision that he did not enter into a quid-pro-quo regarding Ukraine) did nothing to chastise this president.

He doesn’t ever learn because there are never negative consequences.

Sorry, I forgot to include the sarcasm notation.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1619 on: April 22, 2020, 06:21:17 AM »
It certainly isn't communistic, and that is the main point, right?
Actually, bureaucratic individualism is exactly what you get in a communist system :)

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1620 on: April 22, 2020, 06:27:15 AM »
I only skimmed the article, but does it support the accusation here?  Eric Trump appears to be asking for the company to receive the same treatment as others who are in the same situation.  Prima facie, that seems appropriate.

Eric Trump is managing the company as an agent for his principal, whom we all know is Donald Trump. Eric Trump didn't seem particularly worried about the hotel receiving the same treatment as other businesses owned by Presidents-Elect during January 2017. Why the change since then?

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1621 on: April 22, 2020, 08:22:08 AM »
I only skimmed the article, but does it support the accusation here?  Eric Trump appears to be asking for the company to receive the same treatment as others who are in the same situation.  Prima facie, that seems appropriate.

Eric Trump is managing the company as an agent for his principal, whom we all know is Donald Trump. Eric Trump didn't seem particularly worried about the hotel receiving the same treatment as other businesses owned by Presidents-Elect during January 2017. Why the change since then?

Yeah, the conflict of interest is the problem. It sounds like the boards in charge of decision-making are worried about retaliation from the President and his economic outpatients adult children. Don't forget that Trump fought very hard to remove the oversight of pandemic relief fund distribution to businesses. This is why.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1622 on: April 22, 2020, 09:09:41 AM »

The issue, imo, that's allowing a legal challenge on constitutionality is really one of the biggest issues/causes of points of contention with the quarantine in general, and that's inconsistency. This is in part due to what the government is actually restricting but also due to how they're poorly communicating their restrictions and how businesses are trying to exploit loop holes to stay open.

As long as there are these inconsistencies, there will be complaints that aren't at least completely baseless, and there will be these constitutional challenges.

Agree.

kenmoremmm

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1623 on: April 22, 2020, 03:42:29 PM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1624 on: April 22, 2020, 06:02:11 PM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.
We are still a beacon on a hill... it is just that now we are a flashing warning light.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1625 on: April 22, 2020, 06:14:52 PM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.

We've been laughing at the US since Trump, but no one is laughing now. It's just too horrible for that.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1626 on: April 22, 2020, 06:24:05 PM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.

We've been laughing at the US since Trump, but no one is laughing now. It's just too horrible for that.

I remember how embarrassing it was traveling as an American during the GWB years. And then, during the Obama years, what a relief. Because people in other countries were giving us a do-over. I had so many conversations with non-Americans during that time where they seemed to be allowing that we had emerged from a sort of collective insanity.

And now... my non-American friends have pretty much written our country off. And I can’t say I blame them.

wenchsenior

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1627 on: April 22, 2020, 06:59:54 PM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.

We've been laughing at the US since Trump, but no one is laughing now. It's just too horrible for that.

I remember how embarrassing it was traveling as an American during the GWB years. And then, during the Obama years, what a relief. Because people in other countries were giving us a do-over. I had so many conversations with non-Americans during that time where they seemed to be allowing that we had emerged from a sort of collective insanity.

And now... my non-American friends have pretty much written our country off. And I can’t say I blame them.

I once was drafted to try to explain the pre ACA American health insurance system, and then the ACA, to the former governor of the British Virgin Islands and former First Lady (or whatever her title was).  They were very attentive, but they could NOT fathom the original system or why Americans could possibly be figuratively rioting over the ACA (which they considered a big improvement but still pretty awful).  They were polite (as Brits usually are), but kept asking baffled variants of "How are Americans not rioting in the street every day to get universal health care provided by the gov't?"  It was funny in a sick way.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1628 on: April 22, 2020, 07:07:46 PM »
Yup - from mid 2016 onwards every time we met someone while living abroad, the very first question we were asked was always something along the lines of “how can people possibly support Trump”?  Then it normally turned to trying to explain our healthcare system.

It was very uncomfortable and embarrassing. 

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1629 on: April 22, 2020, 10:17:15 PM »
We are still a beacon on a hill... it is just that now we are a flashing warning light.
You have been for a while. Back when we had the referendum on becoming a republic, one of the arguments against was simply: "and become like America?" That was 1999. The republic lost.

You've been a flashing warning light to the rest of the world on many issues for a long, long time. It's just only now some of you are coming to realise it.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1630 on: April 23, 2020, 05:02:28 AM »
Yup - from mid 2016 onwards every time we met someone while living abroad, the very first question we were asked was always something along the lines of “how can people possibly support Trump”?  Then it normally turned to trying to explain our healthcare system.

It was very uncomfortable and embarrassing.

I remember having a conversation with an American guy many years ago. He'd come out to NZ, where we have a lot of British and commonwealth TV programming, less American TV. He actually asked why we didn't have any good looking people on our TV shows. I told him that we prefer actors that can act, not just look good. Americans seem to prefer their actors to be pretty first, and acting ability is a distant last consideration. I think the same may apply to politicians - we prefer substance over style, while America has quite the opposite view. You got both with Obama, but that seems to just have been luck!

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1631 on: April 23, 2020, 05:13:31 AM »
It certainly isn't communistic, and that is the main point, right?
Actually, bureaucratic individualism is exactly what you get in a communist system :)
You may get it in a bureocracy of a state that calls itself Socialistic, but it is the opposite of the communist ideal.

Quote
I remember how embarrassing it was traveling as an American during the GWB years. And then, during the Obama years, what a relief. Because people in other countries were giving us a do-over. I had so many conversations with non-Americans during that time where they seemed to be allowing that we had emerged from a sort of collective insanity.

And now... my non-American friends have pretty much written our country off. And I can’t say I blame them.
I think that's a perfect sum up!

For most of us Trump now is like a slightly hurting teeth. You can't believe it, but still have to prod it constantly to convince yourself it's still there and that it wasn't a bad dream. 


talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1632 on: April 23, 2020, 06:24:52 AM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.

We've been laughing at the US since Trump, but no one is laughing now. It's just too horrible for that.

I remember how embarrassing it was traveling as an American during the GWB years. And then, during the Obama years, what a relief. Because people in other countries were giving us a do-over. I had so many conversations with non-Americans during that time where they seemed to be allowing that we had emerged from a sort of collective insanity.

And now... my non-American friends have pretty much written our country off. And I can’t say I blame them.

Sincere question: what other country is laughing at us? Is the EU a model of governance and efficiency? Is Japan growing? is China suddenly allowing alternatives to the Communist party rule? Brazil and Mexico?

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1633 on: April 23, 2020, 06:30:03 AM »
I ask this not to try to defend Trump--I believe in thirty years he will be viewed as one of history's great villains--but to remind everyone that governance has always been messy.

The rule of law is fragile. I see what's happening in Hungary right now, and I am relieved to be in the US. For all they've been abused by the US, Mexico has genuinely needed reform, and Brasil's Bolsonaro scarcely seems better than Trump to me.

I realize that this virus is revealing that Germany and New Zealand are pretty well-run.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1634 on: April 23, 2020, 06:43:48 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/politics/gyms-reopening-lobbying-coronavirus-trump-phase-one/index.html

Well, that finally explains why gyms are in Phase 1 of the country reopening...
Quote
When President Donald Trump revealed his guidelines for "opening up America again" last week, among the bolded names of businesses and institutions that could reopen were restaurants, movie theaters and places of worship -- so long as they adhered to strict social distancing protocols. Tucked near the bottom of the list, right above a warning that bars should stay closed, was a curious inclusion: gyms.

While an integral part of many Americans' routines, gyms and fitness clubs would seem to present a particular risk for contact spread of a contagious virus. Filled with people sweating and breathing hard, sharing equipment and spaces, gyms are in many ways the last kind of business to prioritize during a deadly pandemic.
Their inclusion follows a last-minute lobbying push by an industry not known for flexing its muscles in Washington. While not every major company was part of the effort, conversations with 10 leaders in the fitness-club business reveal an influential network of relationships that kicked into gear over the past few weeks and helped move gyms to the front of the line -- even to the surprise of many in the industry.

marty998

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1635 on: April 23, 2020, 06:47:50 AM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.

We've been laughing at the US since Trump, but no one is laughing now. It's just too horrible for that.

I remember how embarrassing it was traveling as an American during the GWB years. And then, during the Obama years, what a relief. Because people in other countries were giving us a do-over. I had so many conversations with non-Americans during that time where they seemed to be allowing that we had emerged from a sort of collective insanity.

And now... my non-American friends have pretty much written our country off. And I can’t say I blame them.

Sincere question: what other country is laughing at us? Is the EU a model of governance and efficiency? Is Japan growing? is China suddenly allowing alternatives to the Communist party rule? Brazil and Mexico?

Australia is. New Zealand is. Neither of us can fathom what your country has become. Perhaps it's just because we only hear all that is shit. Maybe can you give us some examples of politicians at the top level that actually are good leaders? Or stories of businesses that don't set out to exploit people at every opportunity?

The EU for all its faults is a collection of dozens of countries and cultures and has done what it was set up to do. Foster cooperation and avoid starting another world war. It has disagreements like any extended family, some join, some leave, big deal. It's not there to replace the government of sovereign countries.

Japan doesn't have to grow. Their economy just has to shrink at a rate smaller than their decline in population. There's no rule that says populations must grow forever. Perhaps many countries would be better off with smaller populations, and a higher quality of life with resources shared amongst fewer people.

The other countries are not comparable in any serious way.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1636 on: April 23, 2020, 07:01:23 AM »
what could possibly go wrong?
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/22/mitch-mcconnell-bankruptcy-route-201008

i suppose they're banking on the idea that (R) states will ignore science and reopen earlier, thus have lower economic strain, but more death, whereas (D) states will be the opposite.

i can't imagine what a laughing stock the US looks like to the outside world. i just cannot stand our current political state.

We've been laughing at the US since Trump, but no one is laughing now. It's just too horrible for that.

I remember how embarrassing it was traveling as an American during the GWB years. And then, during the Obama years, what a relief. Because people in other countries were giving us a do-over. I had so many conversations with non-Americans during that time where they seemed to be allowing that we had emerged from a sort of collective insanity.

And now... my non-American friends have pretty much written our country off. And I can’t say I blame them.

Sincere question: what other country is laughing at us? Is the EU a model of governance and efficiency? Is Japan growing? is China suddenly allowing alternatives to the Communist party rule? Brazil and Mexico?

Basically, the rhetoric does not match the reality.  An incredibly rich developed country that has terrible health care policy, terrible maternity leave, horrible work hours, all kinds of labour laws that give massive advantages to employers.  The rhetoric is about the underdog, but in reality the underdog is at a terrible disadvantage.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1637 on: April 23, 2020, 07:12:13 AM »
I agree that there are public goods--maternity leave, health care, etc.--that the state could be producing better in the US. If a thoughtful (Pre-Trump) conservative were here, he'd point out that the tradeoff for that lighter state influence is the kind of economic dynamism that makes this a very attractive country to work and invest anyway.

In fact, Trump has sold enough voters in enough states on that economic dynamism. It's still something our society values. The Affordable Care Act seemed like a step in the direction toward all other developed countries on health care. But I spent years talking to dozens of small business owners--who'd been conditioned to call it "Obamacare"--and they all felt like it had fucked them.

Leisured

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1638 on: April 23, 2020, 07:31:07 AM »
I agree with Marty, post 1636, that Australia and NZ do better than the US. To those two I would add Canada, Nordic states, and Western Europe. not East or South. The US used to be the beacon on the hill, and I tip my hat to the US for that role. Nordic states seem to have taken over the role of the beacon on the hill.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1639 on: April 23, 2020, 07:44:55 AM »
...
The EU for all its faults is a collection of dozens of countries and cultures and has done what it was set up to do. Foster cooperation and avoid starting another world war. It has disagreements like any extended family, some join, some leave, big deal. It's not there to replace the government of sovereign countries.
...

And in a very real way right now, the 50 US states are becoming much more like all the worst parts of today's EU in reacting to the pandemic, since we don't have unified, consistent Federal leadership.  It's hard to say that the US is doing better than the EU as a whole both economically going forward (the US is talking about allowing states to go bankrupt) and in mitigating the pandemic fallout.  If this is WWIII, then we are losing and our Commander in Chief is woefully not up to the task.

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1640 on: April 23, 2020, 07:58:26 AM »
I agree with Marty, post 1636, that Australia and NZ do better than the US. To those two I would add Canada, Nordic states, and Western Europe. not East or South. The US used to be the beacon on the hill, and I tip my hat to the US for that role. Nordic states seem to have taken over the role of the beacon on the hill.

Sadly we're too close and horrified to laugh about the US here in Canada.

We can laugh about Trump himself, but his effects are just too serious.

on the other hand, Canadians in general have a much better quality of life, and opportunity than in the States. (most economic studies agree it's easier to change financial brackets in Canada than in the States. (i.e. poor families can become middle class, middle class can become very comfortable etc.) - Directly related to things that make it even more obvious that the Scandinavian countries have their shit together. (health care, education, taxes, social support)

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1641 on: April 23, 2020, 08:14:10 AM »
I agree with Marty, post 1636, that Australia and NZ do better than the US. To those two I would add Canada, Nordic states, and Western Europe. not East or South. The US used to be the beacon on the hill, and I tip my hat to the US for that role. Nordic states seem to have taken over the role of the beacon on the hill.

Sadly we're too close and horrified to laugh about the US here in Canada.

We can laugh about Trump himself, but his effects are just too serious.

on the other hand, Canadians in general have a much better quality of life, and opportunity than in the States. (most economic studies agree it's easier to change financial brackets in Canada than in the States. (i.e. poor families can become middle class, middle class can become very comfortable etc.) - Directly related to things that make it even more obvious that the Scandinavian countries have their shit together. (health care, education, taxes, social support)

Thank you for not kicking us while we're down, as many of the Aus/NZ posters seem to enjoy doing. Our federal government has increasingly failed us throughout my adult life, in accordance with wheels set in motion when I was very young, or even before I was born (I was 2 years old when Reagan was elected).

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1642 on: April 23, 2020, 08:32:36 AM »
Indeed I think--with the distance of history--that people will look on the 1980-2030 period in America as the era of Reagan, Gingrich, and McConnell. Basically, the country shifted rightward in ways that seemed unthinkable just a few years prior. Part of it was a backlash to the 1960's, and part of it was a backlash to globalization. (ironic that Reagan's movement started the globalization, but then also threw it into reverse)

And that rightward shift is exactly what you describe about government having "failed". It was designed to fail by these men.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 08:49:43 AM by talltexan »

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1643 on: April 23, 2020, 08:52:21 AM »
Indeed I think--with the distance of history--that people will look on the 1980-2030 period in America as the era of Reagan, Gingrich, and McConnell. Basically, the country shifted rightward in ways that seemed unthinkable just a few years prior. Part of it was a backlash to the 1960's, and part of it was a backlash to globalization.

And that rightward shift is exactly what you describe about government having "failed". It was designed to fail by these men.

The thing that's so baffling to most outside of the US is that . . . you guys complain about various levels of government being crap . . . but seems to have driven you to consistently vote in people who are terrible at governing.  Which then makes your government worse.

It's like "Hey guys, I bumped my head in the wall and it kinda hurt.  So I'm going to slam my head in the wall next.  That ought to fix the problem."

Little of what the Republican party has been doing is hidden.  But it seems like there has been a core of people in the US just don't accept things that they don't like as reality . . . and this group is growing, rather than shrinking as time goes on.  If you deny reality, you're never going to be able to make sound choices.  And if you're never going to make sound choices, it's scary when you're responsible for picking the leaders of the most powerful country in the world.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1644 on: April 23, 2020, 08:59:46 AM »
Indeed I think--with the distance of history--that people will look on the 1980-2030 period in America as the era of Reagan, Gingrich, and McConnell. Basically, the country shifted rightward in ways that seemed unthinkable just a few years prior. Part of it was a backlash to the 1960's, and part of it was a backlash to globalization.

And that rightward shift is exactly what you describe about government having "failed". It was designed to fail by these men.

The thing that's so baffling to most outside of the US is that . . . you guys complain about various levels of government being crap . . . but seems to have driven you to consistently vote in people who are terrible at governing.  Which then makes your government worse.

Indeed this exactly describes the success of Reagan. And the reason we do it is that Reagan's Presidency happened to occur when there was favorable monetary and fiscal policy causing an economic boom such that it became clear the USSR could not win the Cold War.

It's not as though Reagan was perfect. But the 1980's were good enough that the conservative movement has been able to continue this same playbook when they have power, while using the crises they create to constrain Democrats when the Democrats happen to gain power.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1645 on: April 23, 2020, 09:01:13 AM »
Indeed I think--with the distance of history--that people will look on the 1980-2030 period in America as the era of Reagan, Gingrich, and McConnell. Basically, the country shifted rightward in ways that seemed unthinkable just a few years prior. Part of it was a backlash to the 1960's, and part of it was a backlash to globalization.

And that rightward shift is exactly what you describe about government having "failed". It was designed to fail by these men.

The thing that's so baffling to most outside of the US is that . . . you guys complain about various levels of government being crap . . . but seems to have driven you to consistently vote in people who are terrible at governing.  Which then makes your government worse.

It's like "Hey guys, I bumped my head in the wall and it kinda hurt.  So I'm going to slam my head in the wall next.  That ought to fix the problem."

Little of what the Republican party has been doing is hidden.  But it seems like there has been a core of people in the US just don't accept things that they don't like as reality . . . and this group is growing, rather than shrinking as time goes on.  If you deny reality, you're never going to be able to make sound choices.  And if you're never going to make sound choices, it's scary when you're responsible for picking the leaders of the most powerful country in the world.

Yep. And from "inside the house," so to speak, it's like being in a hostage situation. Or like being on a speeding bus being driven by people who either don't know how to drive, or who do know, but have a death wish. It's horrific.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1646 on: April 23, 2020, 09:21:24 AM »
Sincere question: what other country is laughing at us? Is the EU a model of governance and efficiency? Is Japan growing? is China suddenly allowing alternatives to the Communist party rule? Brazil and Mexico?
I have no idea what the fare of those other countries has to do with it, but I will try to answer.

EU is quite efficient, and more important, a lot more peaceful and democratic than the US, at least in most parts. In those where it isn't, it is because of Trump-like rulers. Especially Hungary, whose Victor Orban created George Soros as a scapegoat to blame for his election.

Is Japan growing? I am not sure which growth you mean, but if you mean economically for the situation it's in, yes. China is very succesful economically and, for their situation, even ecologically. There are other parties. They are negligible, as is any party in the US except the Reps and Dems, who both internally work very similar to the communist party (in deciding who gets to be the person the citizens are allowed to vote on) so I see not much difference.
Brazil is another Trump-like, just with more violence and history of "revolts" of all sorts. Mexico has it's own problems I don't know much about except a bit about the drug gangs and the Zapatistas.

Quote
he'd point out that the tradeoff for that lighter state influence is the kind of economic dynamism that makes this a very attractive country to work and invest anyway.
Did I understand that right? You mean that in exchange for a "smaller state" you have a more attractive country to work in?

In that case I strongly disagree. I know not enough to make detailed comparisons, but I am quite sure that having a very small business is easier in the EU. The EU is also a place with far better working conditions (given a comparable level on GDP). Social mobility is way higher.
"Investing" may be more attractive, since less costs are internalized and more of the bad stuff falls on everyone else.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1647 on: April 23, 2020, 10:38:27 AM »
Indeed I think--with the distance of history--that people will look on the 1980-2030 period in America as the era of Reagan, Gingrich, and McConnell. Basically, the country shifted rightward in ways that seemed unthinkable just a few years prior. Part of it was a backlash to the 1960's, and part of it was a backlash to globalization.

And that rightward shift is exactly what you describe about government having "failed". It was designed to fail by these men.

The thing that's so baffling to most outside of the US is that . . . you guys complain about various levels of government being crap . . . but seems to have driven you to consistently vote in people who are terrible at governing.  Which then makes your government worse.

It's like "Hey guys, I bumped my head in the wall and it kinda hurt.  So I'm going to slam my head in the wall next.  That ought to fix the problem."

Little of what the Republican party has been doing is hidden.  But it seems like there has been a core of people in the US just don't accept things that they don't like as reality . . . and this group is growing, rather than shrinking as time goes on.  If you deny reality, you're never going to be able to make sound choices.  And if you're never going to make sound choices, it's scary when you're responsible for picking the leaders of the most powerful country in the world.

Yep. And from "inside the house," so to speak, it's like being in a hostage situation. Or like being on a speeding bus being driven by people who either don't know how to drive, or who do know, but have a death wish. It's horrific.

Those are good similes. I was first eligible to vote in 1996. The closest I ever came to voting for a Republican was in 2008, but he lost my vote when he chose Sarah Palin as his running mate. Leaving is not an option, as my parents are elderly and I'm an only child. Yeah, I feel trapped.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1648 on: April 23, 2020, 10:49:02 AM »
Well, I'd say the rest of the industrialized world is  likely mortified that millions of Americans just lost health care literally because of a pandemic. I don't know if laughing is the right word, but definitely not awed by American exceptionalism.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1649 on: April 23, 2020, 11:18:41 AM »
Mostly I wait to see what GuitarStv has posted so I won't be the echo.  ;-)

It's terrifying to watch our neighbor, because it hurts to see our friends hurting, and because so much of our economy is tied up with theirs, and because some of their culture tends to spill over (and a lot of it is stuff we don't want).