Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 303304 times)

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1550 on: April 17, 2020, 01:00:24 PM »
I actually think what they are trying to say with that one is "locations large enough to physically separate people sufficiently should re-open and do that strict physical separation in place".

Notice they are also included in phase 2:
"LARGE VENUES (e.g., sit-down dining, movie theaters, sporting venues, places of
worship) can operate under moderate physical distancing protocols."

Phase 3:
"LARGE VENUES (e.g., sit-down dining, movie theaters, sporting venues, places
of worship) can operate under limited physical distancing protocols"

Except, they shouldn't. People in these spaces are using the same handrails, the same bathrooms, passing through restricted openings, etc. It is irresponsible to put these in the first phase of opening.

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1551 on: April 17, 2020, 01:03:31 PM »
Yeah - should have added a "this seems ridiculous / impractical, but I think what they are trying to say is  . . ."

js82

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1552 on: April 17, 2020, 01:12:30 PM »
Cherry-picking from the phase one recommendations for employers from the document:

"LARGE VENUES (e.g., sit-down dining, movie theaters, sporting venues, places of
worship) can operate under strict physical distancing protocols."

Seems to contradict this one from same list:

"SCHOOLS AND ORGANIZED YOUTH ACTIVITIES (e.g., daycare, camp) that are
currently closed should remain closed. "

I think it comes down to the question "how strict is strict?"  Packing a building full of hundreds of people in close proximity isn't a wise move until the virus is well under control.

The other issue with the "phase" model for sporting events is that the idea of different localities in different phases becomes extra problematic when you're dealing with events that pull in lots of people from outside the area.  A packed stadium for an area in "Phase 3" could still be a substantial risk if people from an area with high infection rates travel to attend a game.

Large sporting events (thinking NCAA D1-football as a prime example here) have the potential to bring huge crowds to smaller towns - and not just huge crowds, but huge crowds for a wide range of places.  They're a potential perfect storm for "re-seeding" a place that thought they had the virus wiped out/under control.

I see high school sports and pro/D1 college as two totally different risk profiles here, due to the vastly different potentials for the disease to jump across populations.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 01:14:01 PM by js82 »

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1553 on: April 17, 2020, 01:21:43 PM »
@js82  - I agree with you. The final four was going to be 5 hours from my house this year, and I was literally making plans for going if my alma-mater made it the week it wound up cancelled.

Probably is the federal government's job to step in and regulate these - interstate commerce after all.

Speaking of college football, Pence was told in no uncertain terms by the various power-brokers in college athletics that there would be no college sports until campuses are reopened.  I imagine a lot of folks will be pushing hard to re-open campuses sometime this summer regardless of the situation. Hopefully the science and preparations are in place when that happens.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1554 on: April 17, 2020, 03:52:07 PM »
Today's outrage:
Trump appears to be fomenting protest in states with democratic party governors with social distancing policies in place... and that might be swing states. From the NYT:
Quote
Trump tweets call to “LIBERATE” states where people are protesting virus restrictions.

President Trump on Friday began openly fomenting right-wing protests of social distancing restrictions in states where groups of his conservative supporters have been violating stay-at-home orders, less than a day after announcing guidelines for how governors could decide on an orderly reopening of their communities.

In a series of all-caps tweets, Mr. Trump declared “LIBERATE MICHIGAN!” and “LIBERATE MINNESOTA!” — two states whose Democratic governors have imposed social distancing restrictions that have shut down businesses and schools and forced people to remain at home. He also tweeted “LIBERATE VIRGINIA, and save your great 2nd Amendment. It is under siege!”

Mr. Trump’s tweets were a remarkable example of a president egging on demonstrators. Earlier this week, more than 1,000 protesters organized by conservative groups created a traffic jam on the streets around the State Capitol in Lansing, Mich., to complain that the restrictions were bad for small businesses. Other protesters, not in vehicles, waved banners in support of Mr. Trump and protested Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, who has been a target of his ire, by chanting, “Lock her up.”

In St. Paul, Minn., a group calling itself “Liberate Minnesota” held a protest Friday in violation of stay-at-home orders in front of the home of Gov. Tim Walz. Hundreds showed up, according to news reports. The group’s Facebook page says that “now is the time to demand Governor Walz and our state legislators end this lock down!”
Mr. Walz was asked about the tweet at a news conference Friday.  “I just don’t have time to figure out why something like that would happen,” he said, adding that he had tried calling both the president and the vice president and had yet to hear back.

”I just have to lead,” said Mr. Walz. “If they’re not going to do it, we’re going to do it, and I don’t mean that critically.”

As he spoke, protesters gathered outside his mansion.

Mr. Trump’s tweets began just moments after a Fox News report by Mike Tobin, a reporter for the network, about protests in Minnesota and elsewhere. The report featured a protester from Virginia saying “those of us who are healthy and want to get out of our house and do business, we need to get this going again. It’s time.”

Gov. Jay Inslee of Washington State, where there was an early outbreak, said the president’s tweets could lead to violence and an increase in infections. “The president is fomenting domestic rebellion and spreading lies even while his own administration says the virus is real and is deadly, and that we have a long way to go before restrictions can be lifted,” Mr. Inslee, a Democrat, said in a statement.

At a news conference on Friday afternoon, Ms. Whitmer said she hoped the president’s comments would not incite more protests. “There is a lot of anxiety,” she said. “The most important thing that anyone with a platform can do is try to use that platform to tell people, ‘We are going to get through this.’”

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1555 on: April 17, 2020, 04:05:46 PM »
Very presidential.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1556 on: April 17, 2020, 05:20:27 PM »
What’s the likelihood that an outbreak of the virus comes from one of these bone-headed protests?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1557 on: April 17, 2020, 05:34:02 PM »
What’s the likelihood that an outbreak of the virus comes from one of these bone-headed protests?

Were they keeping 6' apart?  Were they wearing masks?  If no to both, could easily be a super-spreader event.  Just like church services (damn idiots).  All it takes is one good virus shedder.  Let's hope everyone there was healthy.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1558 on: April 17, 2020, 05:53:58 PM »
What’s the likelihood that an outbreak of the virus comes from one of these bone-headed protests?

Were they keeping 6' apart?  Were they wearing masks?  If no to both, could easily be a super-spreader event.  Just like church services (damn idiots).  All it takes is one good virus shedder.  Let's hope everyone there was healthy.

A friend posted a photo from the MN governor’s mansion protest today, half a mile from where I live.

A small number of morons, but they are not social distancing or wearing masks.

Should the hashtag for 2020 be #freedumb or #covidiots? Unsure.

Edit: This happening when just 32 miles from the Minnesota State line the Smithfield pork factory is largest hotspot with 644 cases of covid-19 because they failed to provide social distancing and preventive  hygiene practice.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 06:15:47 PM by Kris »

v8rx7guy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1559 on: April 17, 2020, 05:58:41 PM »
Someone's got to take his Twitter away.  What an embarrassment.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1560 on: April 17, 2020, 06:48:49 PM »
And here is the report with video of the governor’s mansion protests in St. Paul, MN, showing the crowds.

God, these morons... #thankstrump

https://cbsloc.al/2xEjEfJ

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1561 on: April 17, 2020, 07:09:39 PM »
And here is the report with video of the governor’s mansion protests in St. Paul, MN, showing the crowds.

God, these morons... #thankstrump

https://cbsloc.al/2xEjEfJ

I particularly liked the politician who was giving out fist bumps out of his truck window.  Really, they should all just jump into a giant pile-on and be done with it.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1562 on: April 17, 2020, 07:34:25 PM »
And here is the report with video of the governor’s mansion protests in St. Paul, MN, showing the crowds.

God, these morons... #thankstrump

https://cbsloc.al/2xEjEfJ

I particularly liked the politician who was giving out fist bumps out of his truck window.  Really, they should all just jump into a giant pile-on and be done with it.

I saw a cyclist stop for a second to look at it all, he was wearing a mask.

The people in cars were probably the safest as long as the other person in the car was clear, any exposure to a carrier would be tiny.  Especially if they had hand wipes/sanitizer with them and used it.  The crowd, even if 5% were carriers, how many people will be sick in 2 weeks? 

I swear they should all be eligible for the Darwin Award, except they will potentially infect innocents.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1563 on: April 18, 2020, 02:55:47 AM »
People who break lockdown just get a police visit here. Your individual rights are actually not more important than the rights of people around you not to be infected, not to be called out to save your arse if you have a car accident or anything else, not to have to deal with your shit in any way. You get an educational speech from your local copper, and then you get a warning, and then you get arrested. Being that this is NZ, the education is probably something along the lines of "Mate, you're being a fucking twat. Go home". If you continue to behave with childish disregard for your fellow man, expect a $1000 fine or a short stint in jail.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1564 on: April 18, 2020, 11:55:43 AM »
The dynamics in the US are really interesting.   In another 2 weeks, the US will have more confirmed cases than the rest of the world combined.    Despite this a segment of the population seems to be in general denial.

There's a Senator, Dan Crenshaw, down in Texas.    He seems to have the same sort of split personality illustrated by the US in aggregate.

Some of his ideas are perfectly reasonable and make good sense.    Then it's like a switch is flipped and he starts talking about wildly dogmatic or impractical ideas.   He did an interview with Fox here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-DXEogwVXo, and he starts off in a reasonable way, talking about risk mitigation and learning how to live with COVID-19 for the time being.

Then *bam*, the transformation takes over and he's talking about a bill allowing American covid-19 victims to sue China.




megaschnauzer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1565 on: April 18, 2020, 12:49:35 PM »
i'm guessing that all those people that showed up to protest can easily be traced by their cell phones. my thought is when one of them shows up at the emergency room with symptoms they get treated but denied a ventilator should they need one. just kidding of course.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1566 on: April 18, 2020, 12:55:29 PM »
i'm guessing that all those people that showed up to protest can easily be traced by their cell phones. my thought is when one of them shows up at the emergency room with symptoms they get treated but denied a ventilator should they need one. just kidding of course.

I saw this too late to do it, but if I hadn't, I would have enjoyed making a bunch of copies of this and handing them out to the protesters (in proper mask and gloves, of course).


Pizzabrewer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1567 on: April 18, 2020, 02:03:55 PM »
The dynamics in the US are really interesting.   In another 2 weeks, the US will have more confirmed cases than the rest of the world combined.    Despite this a segment of the population seems to be in general denial.

Yup, exactly.  No matter what the final tally of cases and deaths, Trump will claim it as a victory.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1568 on: April 18, 2020, 04:02:29 PM »
The dynamics in the US are really interesting.   In another 2 weeks, the US will have more confirmed cases than the rest of the world combined.    Despite this a segment of the population seems to be in general denial.

Yup, exactly.  No matter what the final tally of cases and deaths, Trump will claim it as a victory.

But it has been a victory.  .  . For Trump.  Not so much for those losers he's in charge of though.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1569 on: April 18, 2020, 07:41:57 PM »
The dynamics in the US are really interesting.   In another 2 weeks, the US will have more confirmed cases than the rest of the world combined.    Despite this a segment of the population seems to be in general denial.

Yup, exactly.  No matter what the final tally of cases and deaths, Trump will claim it as a victory.

But it has been a victory.  .  . For Trump.  Not so much for those losers he's in charge of though.

Isn't that all Americans? Whether they like it or not....? Thank fuck we've got Auntie Jacinda

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1570 on: April 18, 2020, 08:04:42 PM »
Oy.   You New Zealanders have a good track record of female leaders.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1571 on: April 18, 2020, 08:23:54 PM »
Oy.   You New Zealanders have a good track record of female leaders.

We've had two.... Jenny Shipley doesn't count. But I still think we should have just made Auntie Helen queen.

Gremlin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1572 on: April 18, 2020, 08:47:06 PM »
Oy.   You New Zealanders have a good track record of female leaders.

We've had two.... Jenny Shipley doesn't count. But I still think we should have just made Auntie Helen queen.
Yup.  Australia is doing okay out of this (so far, touch wood) but I look across the ditch with envy.  Ardern and Bloomfield are exactly what you want from your leaders in a crisis.  Auntie Jacinda has now proven herself three times over in three separate crises and Bloomfield is nothing short of sensational.  Clear, consistent messaging.  No attempt at blamestorming.  Backing their words with actions.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1573 on: April 19, 2020, 12:05:30 AM »
Oy.   You New Zealanders have a good track record of female leaders.

We've had two.... Jenny Shipley doesn't count. But I still think we should have just made Auntie Helen queen.
Yup.  Australia is doing okay out of this (so far, touch wood) but I look across the ditch with envy.  Ardern and Bloomfield are exactly what you want from your leaders in a crisis.  Auntie Jacinda has now proven herself three times over in three separate crises and Bloomfield is nothing short of sensational.  Clear, consistent messaging.  No attempt at blamestorming.  Backing their words with actions.

I think you have to really highlight our opposition parties also, who have agreed from the start to not politicise this issue, and to whole heartedly support the government in this one, nationwide effort. There has been absolutely no BS or anti-gov comments to confuse the issue.

And Ashley Bloomfield has become a bit of a national sex symbol.

kei te pai

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1574 on: April 19, 2020, 01:06:23 AM »
Life has got pretty strange down here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSuPeKaE6hk

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1575 on: April 19, 2020, 01:22:19 AM »

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1576 on: April 19, 2020, 01:37:27 AM »
Then *bam*, the transformation takes over and he's talking about a bill allowing American covid-19 victims to sue China.
That is totally normal for the US.
You can sue everyone from everywhere on US courts. At the same time there is a law that allows the US to use the military to prevent their people getting sued at international courts.

i'm guessing that all those people that showed up to protest can easily be traced by their cell phones. my thought is when one of them shows up at the emergency room with symptoms they get treated but denied a ventilator should they need one. just kidding of course.
Throwing in a general warning: Evidence seems to suggest that
A) even with light symptoms, there may be unhealable, high damage to the lung. That is why divers should have a CRT before they dive again after infection.
B) ventilators (the O2) are actually killing people.

The shit got even shittier, you could say.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1577 on: April 19, 2020, 02:00:17 AM »
Then *bam*, the transformation takes over and he's talking about a bill allowing American covid-19 victims to sue China.
That is totally normal for the US.
You can sue everyone from everywhere on US courts. At the same time there is a law that allows the US to use the military to prevent their people getting sued at international courts.

i'm guessing that all those people that showed up to protest can easily be traced by their cell phones. my thought is when one of them shows up at the emergency room with symptoms they get treated but denied a ventilator should they need one. just kidding of course.
Throwing in a general warning: Evidence seems to suggest that
A) even with light symptoms, there may be unhealable, high damage to the lung. That is why divers should have a CRT before they dive again after infection.
B) ventilators (the O2) are actually killing people.

The shit got even shittier, you could say.

O2 under pressure is not good for you. This has been known for quite some time

js82

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1578 on: April 19, 2020, 06:12:31 AM »
Then *bam*, the transformation takes over and he's talking about a bill allowing American covid-19 victims to sue China.
That is totally normal for the US.
You can sue everyone from everywhere on US courts. At the same time there is a law that allows the US to use the military to prevent their people getting sued at international courts.

On a related note, one thing that's interesting to consider in the grand scheme of things is that the majority of the deaths in the US are coming from a strain of the virus that mutated in Europe before making it to the US, not a direct flight from China:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-new-york-city-cases-came-from-europe-not-whuan-china-asia-research-shows-genome-test/


Add in the context of how badly botched the implementation of the European travel ban was, and you have a story that was barely a blip in the news cycle, but probably had broad ramifications for the way the epidemic developed in this country.  Remember, Detroit - our #2 "hot spot" - is a major hub for Delta, including the entry/exit point for many of our European flights (as well as some from Asia).

I'm pretty convinced at this point that if the European travel ban had been implemented sooner and/or was implemented more effectively to repatriate people in a more controlled manner, certain areas  might have been telling a different story right now.

GreenEggs

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1579 on: April 19, 2020, 09:01:12 AM »
Can you guys believe Trump is encouraging the protesters?  He's actively dividing the country even during a pandemic!! 


Putin chose well...

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1580 on: April 19, 2020, 09:45:10 AM »
Then *bam*, the transformation takes over and he's talking about a bill allowing American covid-19 victims to sue China.
That is totally normal for the US.
You can sue everyone from everywhere on US courts. At the same time there is a law that allows the US to use the military to prevent their people getting sued at international courts.

i'm guessing that all those people that showed up to protest can easily be traced by their cell phones. my thought is when one of them shows up at the emergency room with symptoms they get treated but denied a ventilator should they need one. just kidding of course.
Throwing in a general warning: Evidence seems to suggest that
A) even with light symptoms, there may be unhealable, high damage to the lung. That is why divers should have a CRT before they dive again after infection.
B) ventilators (the O2) are actually killing people.

The shit got even shittier, you could say.

O2 under pressure is not good for you. This has been known for quite some time
But generally if doctors use it, it saves your lifes, not ends it.
And btw. it is not about pressurized O2, but all O2 medication. (Imagine the under nose thingy here I guess)

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1581 on: April 19, 2020, 11:54:00 AM »
Is it causal (about the O_2?)?

Or is it just the case that you have to be pretty sick to receive the treatment, so receiving O_2 is a sign that many other therapies will not save you?

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1582 on: April 20, 2020, 04:55:55 AM »
Is it causal (about the O_2?)?

Or is it just the case that you have to be pretty sick to receive the treatment, so receiving O_2 is a sign that many other therapies will not save you?

For obvious reasons there isn't a clinical trial, but observations from several different places in Europe indicate that giving O2 is doing harm, maybe severe. In the words of one doctor: "Patients come in here with slight problems, just breathing heavier. We give them O2 and two hours later, instead of being better, they are dying".

If you remember that even patients with slight symptoms have shown severe damage in lung CRTs, it seems likely that the corona virus somehow reacts very violently with the O2.

kenmoremmm

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1583 on: April 20, 2020, 11:15:35 AM »
Can you guys believe Trump is encouraging the protesters?  He's actively dividing the country even during a pandemic!! 


Putin chose well...

right? you look back at the last 3+ years and trump's actions and you cannot plausibly deny that trump is an agent of russia. so many actions have benefited russia.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1584 on: April 20, 2020, 12:16:43 PM »
Encouraging the protestors is an outrage.

There are certainly many reasons for it that do not involve Russian strategy.

It's possible both to accept Vol. I of the Mueller report (as I do) and not believe every single example of Trump's mismanagement is scripted by outside powers.

COVID is basically the perfect crisis to showcase Trump's incompetence because a sound response would involve

  • Long-Term Planning
  • Scientific-based policy
  • Unifying Rhetoric about share sacrifice
  • Transparency
  • Cooperation with other countries

These are not his strengths.

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1585 on: April 20, 2020, 12:20:45 PM »
Encouraging the protestors is an outrage.

There are certainly many reasons for it that do not involve Russian strategy.

It's possible both to accept Vol. I of the Mueller report (as I do) and not believe every single example of Trump's mismanagement is scripted by outside powers.

COVID is basically the perfect crisis to showcase Trump's incompetence because a sound response would involve

  • Long-Term Planning
  • Scientific-based policy
  • Unifying Rhetoric about share sacrifice
  • Transparency
  • Cooperation with other countries

These are not his strengths.

I mean, I never actually thought Russia had a specific policy they wanted from Trump. They just knew he was subject to flattery, blinded by bravado, and a good sower of chaos.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1586 on: April 20, 2020, 12:25:42 PM »
Getting the US withdrawal from Syria, dropping of sanctions, and hamstringing of NATO was part of Russia's goal, I have no doubt.

This virus thing seems like it would have been beyond their ability to plan.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1587 on: April 20, 2020, 01:37:56 PM »
Can you guys believe Trump is encouraging the protesters?  He's actively dividing the country even during a pandemic!! 


Putin chose well...

In some cases I support and encourage  demonstrators  to express their opposition to overreaching, unconstitutional  restrictions imposed by governors and local officials.


In a challenge  to restrictions  issued by Kansas Governor Kelly, Federal Judge John Broomes ruled that “Plaintiffs have made a sufficient showing that a live controversy exists as to whether the Governor’s current restrictions on religious activity...violate Plaintiffs’ First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion."

 “Defendant has not argued that mass gatherings at churches pose unique health risks that do not arise in mass gatherings at airports, offices, and production facilities. Yet the exemption for religious activities has been eliminated while it remains for a multitude of activities that appear comparable in terms of health risks.”


Governor Kelly's  attorneys claimed that churches weren't singled out.

Judge Broomes was not persuaded.

“I don’t see how you can say that doesn’t target religion...when it is expressly aimed at religion. [You are] calling them out separately and that seems to be the issue here...You have picked and chosen who will get exceptions and what those exceptions will be.”
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 01:42:48 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Pizzabrewer

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1588 on: April 20, 2020, 02:05:55 PM »
Getting the US withdrawal from Syria, dropping of sanctions, and hamstringing of NATO was part of Russia's goal, I have no doubt.

This virus thing seems like it would have been beyond their ability to plan.


Russia's ultimate goal is to drive a wedge between the US and its European allies.

With Trump they've done a damn good job of it.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1589 on: April 20, 2020, 05:01:12 PM »
Is it causal (about the O_2?)?

Or is it just the case that you have to be pretty sick to receive the treatment, so receiving O_2 is a sign that many other therapies will not save you?

For obvious reasons there isn't a clinical trial, but observations from several different places in Europe indicate that giving O2 is doing harm, maybe severe. In the words of one doctor: "Patients come in here with slight problems, just breathing heavier. We give them O2 and two hours later, instead of being better, they are dying".

If you remember that even patients with slight symptoms have shown severe damage in lung CRTs, it seems likely that the corona virus somehow reacts very violently with the O2.

O2 under pressure isn't good for you, that's fact, but by the time you get to needing a ventilator you are in deep trouble and your condition can change minute to minute. In this case, ventilators are a last ditch effort. There's nothing else to do for the patient. Ventilators won't kill them quicker than their actual lung damage, and may actually save them. It's rather like using morphine for terminal cancer patients - morphine has negative side effects that may hasten death but at that point the good it can do outweighs the bad. There are very few medical interventions that don't have some negative. Even xrays are dangerous.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1590 on: April 21, 2020, 05:42:33 AM »
but by the time you get to needing a ventilator you are in deep trouble and your condition can change minute to minute. In this case, ventilators are a last ditch effort. There's nothing else to do for the patient. Ventilators won't kill them quicker than their actual lung damage, and may actually save them.
Again, that isn't a situation where they need ventilators. They are far away from it. Until they get O2.
It's like you getting an hydration infusion because you are dehydrated suddenly causes bladder failure.

Quote
Defendant has not argued that mass gatherings at churches pose unique health risks that do not arise in mass gatherings at airports, offices, and production facilities.

violate Plaintiffs’ First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.

The difference is of course that in all those other buildings something is produced and you need to be there (for a certain part at least, and I certainly would not say that all types of factories or offices are needed).

While with religion, you are free and totally uninhibited if you do it at home. As far as I know there is no religion that mandates that you have to do your prayer every single day or week in a big group. Contrary, most place a premium on you doing your religious stuff alone.

Not to mention that the freedom OF religion always included the freedom FROM religion, which is often forgotten by those "freely exercise religion" guys.
Your religion does not give you a right to hurt others. Gathering increase the risk for others that you infect them.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 05:47:43 AM by LennStar »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1591 on: April 21, 2020, 07:05:17 AM »
Can you guys believe Trump is encouraging the protesters?  He's actively dividing the country even during a pandemic!! 


Putin chose well...

In some cases I support and encourage  demonstrators  to express their opposition to overreaching, unconstitutional  restrictions imposed by governors and local officials.


In a challenge  to restrictions  issued by Kansas Governor Kelly, Federal Judge John Broomes ruled that “Plaintiffs have made a sufficient showing that a live controversy exists as to whether the Governor’s current restrictions on religious activity...violate Plaintiffs’ First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion."

 “Defendant has not argued that mass gatherings at churches pose unique health risks that do not arise in mass gatherings at airports, offices, and production facilities. Yet the exemption for religious activities has been eliminated while it remains for a multitude of activities that appear comparable in terms of health risks.”


Governor Kelly's  attorneys claimed that churches weren't singled out.

Judge Broomes was not persuaded.

“I don’t see how you can say that doesn’t target religion...when it is expressly aimed at religion. [You are] calling them out separately and that seems to be the issue here...You have picked and chosen who will get exceptions and what those exceptions will be.”

The issue, imo, that's allowing a legal challenge on constitutionality is really one of the biggest issues/causes of points of contention with the quarantine in general, and that's inconsistency. This is in part due to what the government is actually restricting but also due to how they're poorly communicating their restrictions and how businesses are trying to exploit loop holes to stay open. The results can be seen large scale in at least some of the push back in Michigan and small scale in a million different situations such as me driving to get some groceries and seeing on the way an Autobell open and 6 washers swarming a truck to all wash it at the same time and thinking....this is really essential *eye-roll*.

As long as there are these inconsistencies, there will be complaints that aren't at least completely baseless, and there will be these constitutional challenges.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1592 on: April 21, 2020, 07:29:57 AM »
but by the time you get to needing a ventilator you are in deep trouble and your condition can change minute to minute. In this case, ventilators are a last ditch effort. There's nothing else to do for the patient. Ventilators won't kill them quicker than their actual lung damage, and may actually save them.
Again, that isn't a situation where they need ventilators. They are far away from it. Until they get O2.
It's like you getting an hydration infusion because you are dehydrated suddenly causes bladder failure.

Quote
Defendant has not argued that mass gatherings at churches pose unique health risks that do not arise in mass gatherings at airports, offices, and production facilities.

violate Plaintiffs’ First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.

The difference is of course that in all those other buildings something is produced and you need to be there (for a certain part at least, and I certainly would not say that all types of factories or offices are needed).

While with religion, you are free and totally uninhibited if you do it at home. As far as I know there is no religion that mandates that you have to do your prayer every single day or week in a big group. Contrary, most place a premium on you doing your religious stuff alone.

Not to mention that the freedom OF religion always included the freedom FROM religion, which is often forgotten by those "freely exercise religion" guys.
Your religion does not give you a right to hurt others. Gathering increase the risk for others that you infect them.

I personally (protestant) find religious practice at home less fulfilling. Corporate worship is made meaningful by the gathering of the group, the symbolic sharing of the bread and wine, the quality of the music.

Certain Jewish practices require the presence of a minyan, which is ten adult men, so it's not just Christians who are suffering.

I am willing to accept this inferior quality of worship because I intellectually believe it is the correct choice for public health.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1593 on: April 21, 2020, 08:40:05 AM »
but by the time you get to needing a ventilator you are in deep trouble and your condition can change minute to minute. In this case, ventilators are a last ditch effort. There's nothing else to do for the patient. Ventilators won't kill them quicker than their actual lung damage, and may actually save them.
Again, that isn't a situation where they need ventilators. They are far away from it. Until they get O2.
It's like you getting an hydration infusion because you are dehydrated suddenly causes bladder failure.

Quote
Defendant has not argued that mass gatherings at churches pose unique health risks that do not arise in mass gatherings at airports, offices, and production facilities.

violate Plaintiffs’ First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.

The difference is of course that in all those other buildings something is produced and you need to be there (for a certain part at least, and I certainly would not say that all types of factories or offices are needed).

While with religion, you are free and totally uninhibited if you do it at home. As far as I know there is no religion that mandates that you have to do your prayer every single day or week in a big group. Contrary, most place a premium on you doing your religious stuff alone.

Not to mention that the freedom OF religion always included the freedom FROM religion, which is often forgotten by those "freely exercise religion" guys.
Your religion does not give you a right to hurt others. Gathering increase the risk for others that you infect them.

I personally (protestant) find religious practice at home less fulfilling. Corporate worship is made meaningful by the gathering of the group, the symbolic sharing of the bread and wine, the quality of the music.

Certain Jewish practices require the presence of a minyan, which is ten adult men, so it's not just Christians who are suffering.

I am willing to accept this inferior quality of worship because I intellectually believe it is the correct choice for public health.

That argument isn't one of being prevented from worshiping though.  It's that you aren't having as much fun while attending your private club.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1594 on: April 21, 2020, 09:02:00 AM »
Imagine I were suing the state of NC for preventing me from attending corporate worship; my attorney would argue that it was my right to do so under the first Ammendment, and would document my sincerely held belief that corporate worship is preferred to at-home video worship. The state's attorney would argue that there was a clear public interest in preventing this for the short-term.

I am not an attorney, but I believe the state would win in most courts.

Isn't this basically how things would go?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1595 on: April 21, 2020, 09:25:28 AM »
Imagine I were suing the state of NC for preventing me from attending corporate worship; my attorney would argue that it was my right to do so under the first Ammendment, and would document my sincerely held belief that corporate worship is preferred to at-home video worship. The state's attorney would argue that there was a clear public interest in preventing this for the short-term.

I am not an attorney, but I believe the state would win in most courts.

Isn't this basically how things would go?
And that is the way it has gone in a number of states. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that gov Kelly added a phase later that specific disallowed church gatherings. Given that state politics and religious demographics, this was most likely actually just intended as a clarification on the law rather than intended as a specific exclusion. However, this opened the door to a constitutional challenge, which the lawyers exploited. Most churches have embraced the need for social distancing and are leveraging technology to hold services. The Easter images of a lone pope are particularly symbolic in this case. I think there is a strain of political martyrdom in American evangelism is pretty gross. Saying Christianity is marginialized in the united states is like saying the NBA and NCAA feel really left out of basketball.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1596 on: April 21, 2020, 09:33:40 AM »
Saying Christianity is marginialized in the united states is like saying the NBA and NCAA feel really left out of basketball.
No, it's like saying water is excluded from the ocean when it isn't allowed to monster wave.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1597 on: April 21, 2020, 09:40:52 AM »
Indeed, I've found David French columns about religious history to be quite helpful. (He currently writes for "The Dispatch", but most articles are behind a pay-wall, and I don't pay for them)

Before reading French, I didn't appreciate that the catholic school system arose at a time when the big religious fault lines were Protestant versus Catholic, and when the public school system was basically viewed as Protestant indoctrination (hence motivating the creation of the catholic schools).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1598 on: April 21, 2020, 09:51:59 AM »
Indeed, I've found David French columns about religious history to be quite helpful. (He currently writes for "The Dispatch", but most articles are behind a pay-wall, and I don't pay for them)

Before reading French, I didn't appreciate that the catholic school system arose at a time when the big religious fault lines were Protestant versus Catholic, and when the public school system was basically viewed as Protestant indoctrination (hence motivating the creation of the catholic schools).

This was universal.  When potato famine refugees arrived in Quebec, the Irish orphans on the boats were adopted by French Canadian families. The shared Catholic religion was much more important than the lack of shared language.  It continued, when I was a kid the children attending Protestant schools included Jews, Hindus and anyone else who wasn't Roman Catholic.  In fact, any French Canadian named Langlois had an English ancestor.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1599 on: April 21, 2020, 10:27:59 AM »
i don't have a problem with people wanting to go to church as long as the are responsible for the consequences. if i was a church goer and i felt the need to be in church despite the quarantine i shouldn't expect the local hospital to treat me if i come down with the virus. with freedom comes responsibility.