Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 303003 times)

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1300 on: March 25, 2020, 09:55:31 PM »
I'm hearing (reading) some of the same GOP supporters who have blamed GM for taking bailouts in 2008 pronounce cruise ship bailouts as good and worthy... ?!?!?!

Dear Leader says it is important, and he’s never wrong. He knows best about everything. It’s gonna be a big, beautiful bailout. Tremendous.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1301 on: March 26, 2020, 06:06:41 AM »
I'm hearing (reading) some of the same GOP supporters who have blamed GM for taking bailouts in 2008 pronounce cruise ship bailouts as good and worthy... ?!?!?!

Let me guess: The money would have helped mainly Democratic voters? And the products of GM are mainly bought by Democratic voters?

(In contrast when hearing cruise ships I mainly envision elderly, conservative people using it and the jobs taken by people who are more Republican leaning. Not to mention who has stocks in those companies. I heard a few years ago they were aggressivly marketed to people who are typically Republican voters.)

Everyone, always remember that every politician is buying votes of his supporter group. They may not be aware of it, and often there is a "vote debt" to be repaid (generally called election promises) but that is what the result is. You don't give your voters what they voted for, you are out.

That is why Trump fans still are Trump fans. He gives them the image that he is in control. That is what they want, and fuck those libtards and reality who say Trump is bad. 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1302 on: March 26, 2020, 04:32:10 PM »
The jobs taken by cruise ships are almost primarily by people from other countries. Sure, the higher-paid and higher-visibility jobs like musician or dancer or party director might be filled by some Americans, but the bulk of the work is in cleaning rooms and fold prep and laundry and those jobs are filled by people from far poorer countries who work in international waters, and therefore aren’t subject to wage and working laws of developed countries.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1303 on: March 26, 2020, 06:07:32 PM »
More bullying from the bully-in-chief - governors having to decide whether to “flatter or fight” him to get needed medical supplies. WTAF

https://apnews.com/f9fb8c41b7f8acc215e3ec78ca32210a

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1304 on: March 26, 2020, 06:46:01 PM »
More bullying from the bully-in-chief - governors having to decide whether to “flatter or fight” him to get needed medical supplies. WTAF

https://apnews.com/f9fb8c41b7f8acc215e3ec78ca32210a

Refresh my memory: why was he impeached again? For what basically amounted to extortion for personal gain leveraging his position of power? Hmmm....

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1305 on: March 26, 2020, 09:01:19 PM »
From the Washington Post:

Trump told Fox News’s Sean Hannity on Thursday night that his conversation with governors earlier in the day was a “love fest” — save for the leaders of Washington and Michigan — and that he’s helping the states, though he believes they’re asking for resources they won’t need.
“I think that a lot of things are being said that are more — I don’t think that certain things will materialize and you know a lot of equipment is being asked for that I don’t think they’ll need,” Trump said.
Trump said he gets along well with all the governors except Washington Gov. Jay Inslee and Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (whose name he did not seem to know). Both Democrats have publicly called on Trump to get more resources to the states.
“We’re really helping the governors,” Trump said. “We had a call today with almost every governor, just about, I’d say, all 50. And it was like a love fest and they were so happy with the job we’re doing.”
But, Trump said later, “some of these governors you know they take, take, take and then they complain, they take and you do a great job, you build them a hospital, you do better and they’re always complaining, so I don’t like that.”

🤮🤮

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1306 on: March 26, 2020, 09:25:49 PM »
He also said this on 3/24/2020:

“You want Ventilators & Masks from the Federal Government’s Reserves to treat your citizens? Well, Governors have to treat me well, it’s a two-way street.”

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1307 on: March 26, 2020, 09:44:59 PM »
From the Washington Post:

Trump told Fox News’s Sean Hannity on Thursday night that his conversation with governors earlier in the day was a “love fest” — save for the leaders of Washington and Michigan — and that he’s helping the states, though he believes they’re asking for resources they won’t need.
“I think that a lot of things are being said that are more — I don’t think that certain things will materialize and you know a lot of equipment is being asked for that I don’t think they’ll need,” Trump said.
Trump said he gets along well with all the governors except Washington Gov. Jay Inslee and Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (whose name he did not seem to know). Both Democrats have publicly called on Trump to get more resources to the states.
“We’re really helping the governors,” Trump said. “We had a call today with almost every governor, just about, I’d say, all 50. And it was like a love fest and they were so happy with the job we’re doing.”
But, Trump said later, “some of these governors you know they take, take, take and then they complain, they take and you do a great job, you build them a hospital, you do better and they’re always complaining, so I don’t like that.”

🤮🤮

Oh, he knows Gretchen Whitmer's name. He launched a Twitter attack at her recently. She's not afraid of him and has no more fucks left to give. He knows it and it just drives him nuts.

So glad she's my governor. She's been strong and level-headed throughout this mess.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1308 on: March 26, 2020, 09:49:43 PM »
From the Washington Post:

Trump told Fox News’s Sean Hannity on Thursday night that his conversation with governors earlier in the day was a “love fest” — save for the leaders of Washington and Michigan — and that he’s helping the states, though he believes they’re asking for resources they won’t need.
“I think that a lot of things are being said that are more — I don’t think that certain things will materialize and you know a lot of equipment is being asked for that I don’t think they’ll need,” Trump said.
Trump said he gets along well with all the governors except Washington Gov. Jay Inslee and Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (whose name he did not seem to know). Both Democrats have publicly called on Trump to get more resources to the states.
“We’re really helping the governors,” Trump said. “We had a call today with almost every governor, just about, I’d say, all 50. And it was like a love fest and they were so happy with the job we’re doing.”
But, Trump said later, “some of these governors you know they take, take, take and then they complain, they take and you do a great job, you build them a hospital, you do better and they’re always complaining, so I don’t like that.”

🤮🤮

Oh, he knows Gretchen Whitmer's name. He launched a Twitter attack at her recently. She's not afraid of him and has no more fucks left to give. He knows it and it just drives him nuts.

So glad she's my governor. She's been strong and level-headed throughout this mess.

A lot of people have been dumping on Newsom, but I think it is just because he isn't directly confronting Trump?

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1309 on: March 31, 2020, 07:58:01 AM »
Like other governors, Newsom needs resources that Trump can provide. I'm honestly not an expert on how to get things from Trump. Does it require standing firm? Flattery? Confrontation? Different ones of those at different times?

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1310 on: March 31, 2020, 08:05:10 AM »
Like other governors, Newsom needs resources that Trump can provide. I'm honestly not an expert on how to get things from Trump. Does it require standing firm? Flattery? Confrontation? Different ones of those at different times?

I think obsequious flattery is the only thing that works.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1311 on: March 31, 2020, 08:05:59 AM »
Like other governors, Newsom needs resources that Trump can provide. I'm honestly not an expert on how to get things from Trump. Does it require standing firm? Flattery? Confrontation? Different ones of those at different times?

I think obsequious flattery is the only thing that works.

Also having a history of never having told him that he was wrong about anything.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1312 on: March 31, 2020, 08:41:53 AM »
Like other governors, Newsom needs resources that Trump can provide. I'm honestly not an expert on how to get things from Trump. Does it require standing firm? Flattery? Confrontation? Different ones of those at different times?

I think obsequious flattery is the only thing that works.

Also having a history of never having told him that he was wrong about anything.

Bending down and kissing his feet probably helps.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1313 on: March 31, 2020, 08:53:50 AM »
Like other governors, Newsom needs resources that Trump can provide. I'm honestly not an expert on how to get things from Trump. Does it require standing firm? Flattery? Confrontation? Different ones of those at different times?

I think obsequious flattery is the only thing that works.

Also having a history of never having told him that he was wrong about anything.

Bending down and kissing his feet probably helps.

His history would indicate that kissing the feet is probably not the most effective area to use your mouth on.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1314 on: March 31, 2020, 09:14:15 AM »
Like other governors, Newsom needs resources that Trump can provide. I'm honestly not an expert on how to get things from Trump. Does it require standing firm? Flattery? Confrontation? Different ones of those at different times?
Seems like there are two strategies:
1) extreme flattery and public praise
2) lawsuits

#1 is obviously the most expeditious route, but comes with the paradox that you are often forced to praise the very person and actions which counter your worldview

#2 is slow, expensive and painful, but has proven successful in a number of circumstances. Trump's essential legal strategy is to delay/defer and hope to out-wait his opponents, but when they are persistent he has a history of losing in court (Bigly!)

Obviously with public health on the line in a rapidly-moving pandemic there's little time for #2.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1315 on: March 31, 2020, 09:15:20 AM »
Given the morbid seriousness of what is going on, I have been avoiding anything that might have a sound bite of Trump. His response is such a dumpster fire that I just can't. The political favoritism that will literally kill Americans is some weird form of treason and dereliction of duty that I can't even comprehend being viewed as even happening. It is so far outside the realm of ok that it is outright surreal.

Meanwhile, the administration continues on all fronts including rolling back MPG/emissions requirements for vehicles (that automakers for the most part didn't even ask for), just as another fuck-you-Obama item on the list... and adding on that, despite having been in the works for a while, is to help with the current coronavirus epidemic. I don't think they even expect their constituents to try and connect those dots and relative timelines of effect. It is galling... though not unprecedented.

Sigh. 

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1316 on: March 31, 2020, 09:23:31 AM »

Meanwhile, the administration continues on all fronts including rolling back MPG/emissions requirements for vehicles (that automakers for the most part didn't even ask for), just as another fuck-you-Obama item on the list... and adding on that, despite having been in the works for a while, is to help with the current coronavirus epidemic. I don't think they even expect their constituents to try and connect those dots and relative timelines of effect. It is galling... though not unprecedented.

I was going to comment on this as well.  The WH has justified this in part by saying the increased fuel standards will add cost to vehicles, thereby causing more people to keep their cars for longer and drive older, "less safe" models (the overwhelming majority of which are still 2010 models or newer, e.g. several years newer than my current, very safe japanese econo-box car).  Ironically the WH's own estimates undercut this very argument, as they predict more people will die from increased air pollution than will be saved by the very marginal increases in vehicle safety between cars made in the 2010s and those made in the 2020s.

Basically the justification is a lie, and then they admit they are lying with the required assessments, but they are going ahead anyway.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1317 on: March 31, 2020, 09:44:19 AM »
Like other governors, Newsom needs resources that Trump can provide. I'm honestly not an expert on how to get things from Trump. Does it require standing firm? Flattery? Confrontation? Different ones of those at different times?
Seems like there are two strategies:
1) extreme flattery and public praise
2) lawsuits

#1 is obviously the most expeditious route, but comes with the paradox that you are often forced to praise the very person and actions which counter your worldview

#2 is slow, expensive and painful, but has proven successful in a number of circumstances. Trump's essential legal strategy is to delay/defer and hope to out-wait his opponents, but when they are persistent he has a history of losing in court (Bigly!)

Obviously with public health on the line in a rapidly-moving pandemic there's little time for #2.




Too bad it's inappropriate to discuss option #3

Fireball

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1318 on: March 31, 2020, 10:13:26 AM »

Meanwhile, the administration continues on all fronts including rolling back MPG/emissions requirements for vehicles (that automakers for the most part didn't even ask for), just as another fuck-you-Obama item on the list... and adding on that, despite having been in the works for a while, is to help with the current coronavirus epidemic. I don't think they even expect their constituents to try and connect those dots and relative timelines of effect. It is galling... though not unprecedented.

I was going to comment on this as well.  The WH has justified this in part by saying the increased fuel standards will add cost to vehicles, thereby causing more people to keep their cars for longer and drive older, "less safe" models (the overwhelming majority of which are still 2010 models or newer, e.g. several years newer than my current, very safe japanese econo-box car).  Ironically the WH's own estimates undercut this very argument, as they predict more people will die from increased air pollution than will be saved by the very marginal increases in vehicle safety between cars made in the 2010s and those made in the 2020s.

Basically the justification is a lie, and then they admit they are lying with the required assessments, but they are going ahead anyway.

Right.  The more efficient fuel standards would supposedly cost American's about $1,000 extra per car.  The White House ran an analysis and it showed that their updated standards would cost American's $1,400 more per car due to less fuel economy.  So, now they're dropping that argument and trying others. Whether you're a Republican or Democrat, you have to recognize poor policy when you see it.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1319 on: March 31, 2020, 10:23:58 AM »

Meanwhile, the administration continues on all fronts including rolling back MPG/emissions requirements for vehicles (that automakers for the most part didn't even ask for), just as another fuck-you-Obama item on the list... and adding on that, despite having been in the works for a while, is to help with the current coronavirus epidemic. I don't think they even expect their constituents to try and connect those dots and relative timelines of effect. It is galling... though not unprecedented.

I was going to comment on this as well.  The WH has justified this in part by saying the increased fuel standards will add cost to vehicles, thereby causing more people to keep their cars for longer and drive older, "less safe" models (the overwhelming majority of which are still 2010 models or newer, e.g. several years newer than my current, very safe japanese econo-box car).  Ironically the WH's own estimates undercut this very argument, as they predict more people will die from increased air pollution than will be saved by the very marginal increases in vehicle safety between cars made in the 2010s and those made in the 2020s.

Basically the justification is a lie, and then they admit they are lying with the required assessments, but they are going ahead anyway.

Right.  The more efficient fuel standards would supposedly cost American's about $1,000 extra per car.  The White House ran an analysis and it showed that their updated standards would cost American's $1,400 more per car due to less fuel economy.  So, now they're dropping that argument and trying others. Whether you're a Republican or Democrat, you have to recognize poor policy when you see it.

A once common adage around Washington:  Get the policy right and you can work out the politicsWhen the policy is bad there's nothing left but politics.

wenchsenior

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1320 on: March 31, 2020, 01:38:20 PM »
I feel that Trump's default setting is to spout terrible, stupid ideas, so I'm invading the outrage thread with an exception that is giving me a flicker of positive feeling about him today:  Trump's proposal of a big infrastructure package to combat the inevitable recession.  Obama tried to get one through several times and the GOP always blocked it. I suspect they won't block it now, so perhaps something positive can come out of this pandemic for the long term benefit of the country.


(I'm unusually down and crabby today, so I'm trying to cheer myself up).

six-car-habit

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1321 on: March 31, 2020, 02:14:24 PM »
 If I remember correctly, The House came to him with a Trillion dollar infrastructure bill / projects about a year ago.  But he threw a tantrum because of investigations, and stormed out of the meeting, and that ended that plan.  I suppose this time around he needs to do something more to boost the economy though...

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1322 on: March 31, 2020, 03:18:32 PM »
If I remember correctly, The House came to him with a Trillion dollar infrastructure bill / projects about a year ago.  But he threw a tantrum because of investigations, and stormed out of the meeting, and that ended that plan.  I suppose this time around he needs to do something more to boost the economy though... his chances of being re-elected though....

FTFY. :)

Fireball

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1323 on: March 31, 2020, 05:24:03 PM »
If I remember correctly, The House came to him with a Trillion dollar infrastructure bill / projects about a year ago.  But he threw a tantrum because of investigations, and stormed out of the meeting, and that ended that plan.  I suppose this time around he needs to do something more to boost the economy though...

Plus, McConnell and the others shot down that previous infrastructure bill because the idea was floated that it should be paid for by repealing the 2017 tax cuts. They will only get behind infrastructure if we cut entitlements or add to the deficit.

So, to be clear, with Trump's infrastructure bill that would be 7T in deficit spending to prop up the greatest economy of all time just in the last 3 years.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1324 on: March 31, 2020, 05:37:55 PM »
I just hope whatever infrastructure bill that comes out will be forward looking instead of a bunch of 20th century 'legacy' projects.

If there's one thing this work-from-home/teach-from-home has drilled home to me its how massive the digital divide is.  Also, there are a crap ton of weak links in our supply chain that ought to be addressed

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1325 on: March 31, 2020, 08:08:52 PM »
I just hope whatever infrastructure bill that comes out will be forward looking instead of a bunch of 20th century 'legacy' projects.

If there's one thing this work-from-home/teach-from-home has drilled home to me its how massive the digital divide is.  Also, there are a crap ton of weak links in our supply chain that ought to be addressed

I believe I heard 'roads, bridges, tunnels' and specifically 'no Green New Deal garbage'.  Trump sees himself as being given a blank check now that interest rates are near zero and he's making sure he transfers as much wealth as possible to his buddies and supporters.  Too bad that additional $2T debt does, indeed, have to be paid back, probably around the time those roads, bridges, and tunnels are crumbling again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vOJNEN3v8E

Also, https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/31/politics/trump-fuel-efficiency-standards/index.html

So, if the coronavirus doesn't get us in the near term, climate change eventually will.  For a self proclaimed optimist, he seems to not make choices that look to living a long and healthy life (which is very unMustachian!).

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1326 on: April 01, 2020, 04:29:27 AM »
I would applaud this infrastructure plan if the fietsprofessor would be the only one allowed to decide where the money goes to.

btw. cycling (fiets is netherlands for bicycle): https://www.coursera.org/learn/unraveling-the-cycling-city/home/welcome

The material is free! Some good stuff linked in there.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1327 on: April 01, 2020, 06:30:50 AM »
I just hope whatever infrastructure bill that comes out will be forward looking instead of a bunch of 20th century 'legacy' projects.

If there's one thing this work-from-home/teach-from-home has drilled home to me its how massive the digital divide is.  Also, there are a crap ton of weak links in our supply chain that ought to be addressed

I believe I heard 'roads, bridges, tunnels' and specifically 'no Green New Deal garbage'.  Trump sees himself as being given a blank check now that interest rates are near zero and he's making sure he transfers as much wealth as possible to his buddies and supporters.  Too bad that additional $2T debt does, indeed, have to be paid back, probably around the time those roads, bridges, and tunnels are crumbling again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vOJNEN3v8E

Also, https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/31/politics/trump-fuel-efficiency-standards/index.html

So, if the coronavirus doesn't get us in the near term, climate change eventually will.  For a self proclaimed optimist, he seems to not make choices that look to living a long and healthy life (which is very unMustachian!).

Just want to ask about one thing: why does the money need to be "paid back"?

I agree that Federal debt needs to be "serviced", just curious about this part.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1328 on: April 01, 2020, 12:27:57 PM »
Just want to ask about one thing: why does the money need to be "paid back"?

I agree that Federal debt needs to be "serviced", just curious about this part.

Economists generally agree that national debt to GDP ratio should remain competitive with other nations to ensure low borrowing costs.  Greece and Venezuela are extreme examples, where interest rates shot up and currency was devalued because risk of default was perceived to be high. 

It would be an interesting experiment to see how high US debt could go before buyers demand more than 0.25% in order to buy American treasuries.  The Fed is currently doing a lot of 'balance sheet' buying to keep the debt market liquid.

As you say, a lot is dependent on perception of ability to service the debt too, but we were already running 1T deficits when our economy was at historically low unemployment.  Guess we'll also see how increasing taxes affects  GDP, if we get through our current crisis. 

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1329 on: April 02, 2020, 04:43:15 AM »
Just want to ask about one thing: why does the money need to be "paid back"?

I agree that Federal debt needs to be "serviced", just curious about this part.

Uh... where is the difference? For the paying point, not math.


Quote
Economists generally agree that national debt to GDP ratio should remain competitive with other nations to ensure low borrowing costs.

Though interestingly the actual ratio seems to have nothing to do with the actual borrowing costs.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1330 on: April 02, 2020, 06:15:53 AM »
Reports are out that we've been shipping the medical supplies that we so desperately need to other countries. 


Trump has been withholding federal help getting the ventilators so Kushner can work out private deals instead.


Trump's head needs to roll for this.!!

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1331 on: April 02, 2020, 06:21:08 AM »
Reports are out that we've been shipping the medical supplies that we so desperately need to other countries. 


Trump has been withholding federal help getting the ventilators so Kushner can work out private deals instead.


Trump's head needs to roll for this.!!

On top of that, many of the ventilators from the federal stockpile don’t work, and we’re only just learning this now because the maintenance contract expired last year and wasn’t renewed by the Trump administration until 2 months ago.

Gee, who would have ever thought that electing a failed businessman/reality TV star with no experience in public office (not even a board position) and an absolute lack of intellectual curiosity, an adult with a spoiled child’s idea of leadership who fills his cabinet with bottom-of-the-barrel toadies and fires or neglects to fill so many important positions, would have any negative effects?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/us/politics/coronavirus-ventilators.html
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 06:27:11 AM by OtherJen »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1332 on: April 02, 2020, 06:57:04 AM »
Canada sent supplies to China early on, and it was bread on the water - China has sent back more then we sent them, now that their manufacturing is picking up.  Not the same for the US?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1333 on: April 02, 2020, 07:57:22 AM »
Canada sent supplies to China early on, and it was bread on the water - China has sent back more then we sent them, now that their manufacturing is picking up.  Not the same for the US?
I imagine “maximum pressure”, a trade war and the insistence of calling it the “Wuhan virus” at the latest G7 has made China less than charitable when it comes to the U.S. 

These are the consequences when you replace career diplomats with sycophants. People die and there is less good will between trading partners.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1334 on: April 02, 2020, 08:38:31 AM »
Just want to ask about one thing: why does the money need to be "paid back"?

I agree that Federal debt needs to be "serviced", just curious about this part.

Uh... where is the difference? For the paying point, not math.


Quote
Economists generally agree that national debt to GDP ratio should remain competitive with other nations to ensure low borrowing costs.

Though interestingly the actual ratio seems to have nothing to do with the actual borrowing costs.

Economist here. "servicing" refers to staying current on the interest payments and providing principal when requested by bondholders. But--by running deficits--the Gov't continues to issue new debt. And the market buys that debt at low effective yields (10-year treasury yield today is below 1%)

Trotting out the examples of Venezuela and Greece should be accompanied by the example of Japan, who has issued debt in the amount of 240% of its national output. The market has bought that debt at even lower yields than those of the US. Japan is not problem-free when it comes to economics, but I think US is more like them than like Greece (who cannot borrow in their own sovereign currency).

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1335 on: April 02, 2020, 11:13:18 AM »
Just want to ask about one thing: why does the money need to be "paid back"?

I agree that Federal debt needs to be "serviced", just curious about this part.

Uh... where is the difference? For the paying point, not math.


Quote
Economists generally agree that national debt to GDP ratio should remain competitive with other nations to ensure low borrowing costs.

Though interestingly the actual ratio seems to have nothing to do with the actual borrowing costs.

Economist here. "servicing" refers to staying current on the interest payments and providing principal when requested by bondholders. But--by running deficits--the Gov't continues to issue new debt. And the market buys that debt at low effective yields (10-year treasury yield today is below 1%)

Trotting out the examples of Venezuela and Greece should be accompanied by the example of Japan, who has issued debt in the amount of 240% of its national output. The market has bought that debt at even lower yields than those of the US. Japan is not problem-free when it comes to economics, but I think US is more like them than like Greece (who cannot borrow in their own sovereign currency).

Since you're an economist, then you know this could be a lively, never ending debate.  I did not exclude Japan (if you read the article I linked to), but their market and economic dynamism is nothing to crow about.  Fortunately they are a small, homogeneous country that can 'tough it out' better than the US could at that debt to GDP ratio, especially since our GDP is service-based and depends on trade deficits.  Abe has done some good things to keep them out of financial straits.  I can't say the same thing for our current administration.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1336 on: April 02, 2020, 04:50:38 PM »
From today's WH briefing, as reported by TPM:
Quote
Asked whether he can ensure Americans that he will reopen Obamacare so that those infected with COVID-19 can be covered, Trump said “we are doing better than that” by getting a cash payment to the people.

“We are working out the mechanics of that with legislature,” Trump said. “So we are going to try and get them a cash payment because just opening it up doesn’t help as much.”

Getting a one time lump sump payment of $1200, instead of health insurance is not as good. I suspect Trump has no idea what insurance costs, how employees are affected by loss of employment.

I feel like Covid is just exposing all of the reasons why we need single payer national healthcare. An insurance system tied to work is just insane.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1337 on: April 02, 2020, 04:57:33 PM »
From today's WH briefing, as reported by TPM:
Quote
Asked whether he can ensure Americans that he will reopen Obamacare so that those infected with COVID-19 can be covered, Trump said “we are doing better than that” by getting a cash payment to the people.

“We are working out the mechanics of that with legislature,” Trump said. “So we are going to try and get them a cash payment because just opening it up doesn’t help as much.”

Getting a one time lump sump payment of $1200, instead of health insurance is not as good. I suspect Trump has no idea what insurance costs, how employees are affected by loss of employment.

I feel like Covid is just exposing all of the reasons why we need single payer national healthcare. An insurance system tied to work is just insane.

I feel like Covid is exposing a lot of weaknesses throughout our economy, health insurance and healthcare being two big ones.  Many are realizing the digital divide is a very real thing, and many businesses that could be done at least partially at home haven’t been set up to facilitate this current necessity.  And it turns out that eliminating redundancy and stretching the supply chain as far as it could go has negative consequences as well.  And of course when times were good and we should have been fixing the damn roof we instead squandered that away.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1338 on: April 02, 2020, 05:10:39 PM »
From today's WH briefing, as reported by TPM:
Quote
Asked whether he can ensure Americans that he will reopen Obamacare so that those infected with COVID-19 can be covered, Trump said “we are doing better than that” by getting a cash payment to the people.

“We are working out the mechanics of that with legislature,” Trump said. “So we are going to try and get them a cash payment because just opening it up doesn’t help as much.”

Getting a one time lump sump payment of $1200, instead of health insurance is not as good. I suspect Trump has no idea what insurance costs, how employees are affected by loss of employment.

I feel like Covid is just exposing all of the reasons why we need single payer national healthcare. An insurance system tied to work is just insane.

I feel like Covid is exposing a lot of weaknesses throughout our economy, health insurance and healthcare being two big ones.  Many are realizing the digital divide is a very real thing, and many businesses that could be done at least partially at home haven’t been set up to facilitate this current necessity.  And it turns out that eliminating redundancy and stretching the supply chain as far as it could go has negative consequences as well.  And of course when times were good and we should have been fixing the damn roof we instead squandered that away.

Let’s hope enough people “get it” by the time this is over to force change.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1339 on: April 03, 2020, 04:31:17 AM »
Just want to ask about one thing: why does the money need to be "paid back"?

I agree that Federal debt needs to be "serviced", just curious about this part.

Uh... where is the difference? For the paying point, not math.


Quote
Economists generally agree that national debt to GDP ratio should remain competitive with other nations to ensure low borrowing costs.

Though interestingly the actual ratio seems to have nothing to do with the actual borrowing costs.

Economist here. "servicing" refers to staying current on the interest payments and providing principal when requested by bondholders. But--by running deficits--the Gov't continues to issue new debt. And the market buys that debt at low effective yields (10-year treasury yield today is below 1%)

Trotting out the examples of Venezuela and Greece should be accompanied by the example of Japan, who has issued debt in the amount of 240% of its national output. The market has bought that debt at even lower yields than those of the US. Japan is not problem-free when it comes to economics, but I think US is more like them than like Greece (who cannot borrow in their own sovereign currency).

Since you're an economist, then you know this could be a lively, never ending debate.  I did not exclude Japan (if you read the article I linked to), but their market and economic dynamism is nothing to crow about.  Fortunately they are a small, homogeneous country that can 'tough it out' better than the US could at that debt to GDP ratio, especially since our GDP is service-based and depends on trade deficits.  Abe has done some good things to keep them out of financial straits.  I can't say the same thing for our current administration.

Legit. Japan has problems. They are a lot bigger than you make them sound inthis comment, though. 120,000,000 people. Third largest economy in the world (if you break up Eurozone). I think historians will look on the Abe years as a net positive for them.

But figuring out what these negative bond yields mean for the world is still an open question. I'd argue they mean there's a lot of demand for the safe assets--debt--that only sovereign governments can produce right now.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1340 on: April 03, 2020, 05:25:19 AM »
Just throwing in a bit: The difference of Japanese debt is that their bonds are higher than anywhere else hold by Japanese people (at least that is what I learned at Uni 20 years ago). "Trust" does not play a big role. Japanese buy Japanese bonds. Thats it.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1341 on: April 03, 2020, 06:18:09 AM »
Jared Kushner appeared on the WH corona virus task force.  WTF?!
Why is he leading anything?  and more specifically, why is he leading this particular group - at a time when he is also the WH innovations director, charged with brokering peace in the Middle East and building the wall along the Mexican border.

Yet another relative sycophant leading a critical funciton of government but without any life experience on that particular matter.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1342 on: April 03, 2020, 07:22:37 AM »
Jared Kushner appeared on the WH corona virus task force.  WTF?!
Why is he leading anything?  and more specifically, why is he leading this particular group - at a time when he is also the WH innovations director, charged with brokering peace in the Middle East and building the wall along the Mexican border.

Yet another relative sycophant leading a critical funciton of government but without any life experience on that particular matter.

The word "relative" has all sorts of ways it can play in this sentence. I love it.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1343 on: April 03, 2020, 10:09:35 AM »
Jared Kushner appeared on the WH corona virus task force.  WTF?!
Why is he leading anything?
Because he is loyal to the leader. That is the only thing of any worth to a leader in danger of losing his position.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1344 on: April 03, 2020, 10:46:18 AM »
Kushner is the poster child for entitled mediocrity (incompetence). Like father, like son-in-law, I guess.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/opinion/jared-kushner-coronavirus.html

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1345 on: April 03, 2020, 11:48:52 AM »
Legit. Japan has problems. They are a lot bigger than you make them sound inthis comment, though. 120,000,000 people. Third largest economy in the world (if you break up Eurozone). I think historians will look on the Abe years as a net positive for them.

But figuring out what these negative bond yields mean for the world is still an open question. I'd argue they mean there's a lot of demand for the safe assets--debt--that only sovereign governments can produce right now.

Small was probably a lazy word for it, but I was meaning that they are no 'fifty nifty united states'.  They do have a large (and elderly) population which isn't going to do them any favors.  They have been spared from the worst of the Covid damage up till now, but apparently it is cherry blossom season and there are no stay at home orders...

You bring up an interesting point about negative interest rates.  I still can't wrap my mind fully how that can work long term.  Why would any individual ever take cash and deliberately buy something that loses money, or leave money in a negative yield account?  I know it can cost money to store physical cash safely, but I'm picturing a bunch of 'Walter White's' with a storage unit full of cash....

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1346 on: April 06, 2020, 06:52:45 AM »
Legit. Japan has problems. They are a lot bigger than you make them sound inthis comment, though. 120,000,000 people. Third largest economy in the world (if you break up Eurozone). I think historians will look on the Abe years as a net positive for them.

But figuring out what these negative bond yields mean for the world is still an open question. I'd argue they mean there's a lot of demand for the safe assets--debt--that only sovereign governments can produce right now.

Small was probably a lazy word for it, but I was meaning that they are no 'fifty nifty united states'.  They do have a large (and elderly) population which isn't going to do them any favors.  They have been spared from the worst of the Covid damage up till now, but apparently it is cherry blossom season and there are no stay at home orders...

You bring up an interesting point about negative interest rates.  I still can't wrap my mind fully how that can work long term.  Why would any individual ever take cash and deliberately buy something that loses money, or leave money in a negative yield account?  I know it can cost money to store physical cash safely, but I'm picturing a bunch of 'Walter White's' with a storage unit full of cash....

When I ask this question of the bankers who work near me, they answer that there are a ton of pensions who are chartered to buy a certain percentage of bonds with their money, so that's one thing that holds down yields. (so in a way, it's individual investors, but really the trustees)

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1347 on: April 06, 2020, 07:18:50 AM »
Jared Kushner appeared on the WH corona virus task force.  WTF?!
Why is he leading anything?
Because he is loyal to the leader. That is the only thing of any worth to a leader in danger of losing his position.
Yep! Trump demands loyalty, not competence.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1348 on: April 06, 2020, 09:51:28 AM »
Jared Kushner appeared on the WH corona virus task force.  WTF?!
Why is he leading anything?
Because he is loyal to the leader. That is the only thing of any worth to a leader in danger of losing his position.
Yep! Trump demands loyalty, not competence.
I thought that changing the website to match Kushner's gaffe about federal surplus not being there to go to states was particularly like Animal Farm. Remember that phrase from 2016: "This is not normal."?

See also, still pushing proven ineffective medicines ( Hydroxychloroquine  ) and musing about still allowing (distanced) Easter Sunday services. How does anyone support this con-man dotard?

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1349 on: April 06, 2020, 10:10:32 AM »
Jared Kushner appeared on the WH corona virus task force.  WTF?!
Why is he leading anything?
Because he is loyal to the leader. That is the only thing of any worth to a leader in danger of losing his position.
Yep! Trump demands loyalty, not competence.
I thought that changing the website to match Kushner's gaffe about federal surplus not being there to go to states was particularly like Animal Farm. Remember that phrase from 2016: "This is not normal."?

See also, still pushing proven ineffective medicines ( Hydroxychloroquine  ) and musing about still allowing (distanced) Easter Sunday services. How does anyone support this con-man dotard?

Good question. But they just push all of this away with some variant of, "Oh, look, another Orange Man Bad post."

Which means they don't have to think about it. Kind of like a magic inoculation from thought.