Author Topic: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles  (Read 49491 times)

galliver

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #150 on: December 09, 2014, 06:29:08 PM »
Article probably interesting to many in this discussion, shared by a friend.

http://news.ncsu.edu/2014/12/macnell-gender-2014/

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #151 on: December 10, 2014, 06:47:55 AM »
Article probably interesting to many in this discussion, shared by a friend.

http://news.ncsu.edu/2014/12/macnell-gender-2014/

wow, interesting (and alarming). thanks Galliver!

galliver

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #152 on: December 10, 2014, 10:11:57 AM »
Another on crossed my radar yesterday and if anything upsets me more. Maybe because it's showing regression in society rather than progress.

http://m.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/12/toys-are-more-divided-by-gender-now-than-they-were-50-years-ago/383556/

I thought this might be the case based on old Lego commercials, but this calls on a lot of other historical data to make the point.

SisterX

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #153 on: December 10, 2014, 12:19:06 PM »
galliver - I've noticed that a lot.  Not just toys but clothes too.  Like, I can't just buy jeans for my daughter.  They have to have pink sparkles or elaborate embroidery on them to show that they're jeans for a GIRL.  If clothes aren't hot pink they almost always have something that says "princess" on them because every girl wants to be a princess, right?  It's aggravating.  I'll look through the girls' clothes, find one or two acceptable outfits, then move into the boys' section to find the rest because there's no sane reason that red jammies with a reindeer on the front is only for boys.
I don't remember clothing being this strongly gendered when I was a child, but maybe that's just faulty memory?  I definitely had a lot more choice in colors.

galliver

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #154 on: December 10, 2014, 02:05:46 PM »
galliver - I've noticed that a lot.  Not just toys but clothes too.  Like, I can't just buy jeans for my daughter.  They have to have pink sparkles or elaborate embroidery on them to show that they're jeans for a GIRL.  If clothes aren't hot pink they almost always have something that says "princess" on them because every girl wants to be a princess, right?  It's aggravating.  I'll look through the girls' clothes, find one or two acceptable outfits, then move into the boys' section to find the rest because there's no sane reason that red jammies with a reindeer on the front is only for boys.
I don't remember clothing being this strongly gendered when I was a child, but maybe that's just faulty memory?  I definitely had a lot more choice in colors.

Yes! I don't necessarily see anything wrong with "boys" and "girls" sections, since a lot of fashions and traditions might be different (e.g. dress clothes), and I'm not sure we're ready as a culture to get rid of such things completely and permanently (although all the props to parents who let their boys experiment with dresses, and communities who make a point to stifle bullying of kids who choose to dress differently!).  Anyway, I just wish there were more neutral options, especially for girls. More stripes, checks, plaid, patterns, and solid colors. And Batman t-shirts.

One thing that irritates me on a different level is baby clothes. The gendering on them doesn't affect the kids themselves (hence the different level), but it's just...stupid. I was shopping for a cute onesie set for my hairdresser (she got me in for an appointment as soon as she recovered and I was excited for her and she's awesome) and I couldn't remember if she was having a boy or girl! It was so hard to find something truly neutral. :( I mean, I have no problem with "daddy's little helper" and saws and hammers on a girl, but I wasn't sure how the recipient would feel. [turned out she'd had a boy though.]

GuitarStv

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #155 on: December 11, 2014, 06:08:55 AM »
The gendering for babies actually makes the most sense to me.  Babies look the same, boy or girl.  It's annoying when people come up to your newborn and ask for her name when he's a boy or vice versa.

plainjane

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #156 on: December 11, 2014, 06:20:19 AM »
The gendering for babies actually makes the most sense to me.  Babies look the same, boy or girl.  It's annoying when people come up to your newborn and ask for her name when he's a boy or vice versa.

Because? Why does it matter?

Related: it really would be nice if English had a widely agreed upon third person singular neutral.

JoanOfSnark

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #157 on: December 11, 2014, 07:03:42 AM »
Like "hen" in Swedish!

Sidenote: I'd fell over laughing is someone referred to me as a "mega-feminist piece of poultry"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_%28pronoun%29

Gin1984

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #158 on: December 11, 2014, 07:28:47 AM »
The gendering for babies actually makes the most sense to me.  Babies look the same, boy or girl.  It's annoying when people come up to your newborn and ask for her name when he's a boy or vice versa.
LOL, I had people call my daughter he even when she was in bright pink.  If that bothers you so much, don't have a kid.

justajane

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #159 on: December 11, 2014, 08:07:39 AM »
The gendering for babies actually makes the most sense to me.  Babies look the same, boy or girl.  It's annoying when people come up to your newborn and ask for her name when he's a boy or vice versa.
LOL, I had people call my daughter he even when she was in bright pink.

This is very true. All three of my boys were called a girl as babies....while wearing blue. People are clueless.

Regarding the gendering of toys, a small disagreement erupted on my Facebook page when I asked for appropriate suggestions for a 6 year old girl's birthday present. Some suggested the Lego Friends series for girls. Then someone else came on and said, "When I was growing up, we just had Legos and both girls and boys played with them." Then the former group got defensive and said to the effect of, "My daughter happens to like the pink Legos and it's not like she's reinforcing the patriarchy by playing lol." I stayed out of it, but I agreed with the person who thinks we should just have Legos. Full stop.

I was in Toys R Us recently, and the separate boys and girl's toy sections are just disconcerting and frankly stupid. Why do we need a pink kitchen and a blue kitchen? I guess I should be thankful they are at least making the latter at all, but just make one damn kitchen that is normal kitchen colors!

Oh, and guess what the Lego Friends sets are? Stephanie's Beachhouse, Heartlake Shopping Mall, Mia's Lemonade Stand, Heartlake Pet Salon, and (my personal favorite) Dolphin Cruiser, a two story yacht. Nothing gendered about that.....Apparently we should groom our daughters to become little Beyonces.   

GuitarStv

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #160 on: December 11, 2014, 09:18:54 AM »
The gendering for babies actually makes the most sense to me.  Babies look the same, boy or girl.  It's annoying when people come up to your newborn and ask for her name when he's a boy or vice versa.
LOL, I had people call my daughter he even when she was in bright pink.  If that bothers you so much, don't have a kid.

Our son didn't seem to arrive with a very good returns policy, so I think we're stuck with him now.

MandalayVA

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #161 on: December 11, 2014, 09:43:06 AM »
Oh, and guess what the Lego Friends sets are? Stephanie's Beachhouse, Heartlake Shopping Mall, Mia's Lemonade Stand, Heartlake Pet Salon, and (my personal favorite) Dolphin Cruiser, a two story yacht. Nothing gendered about that.....Apparently we should groom our daughters to become little Beyonces.   

No palace?  Shouldn't a princess-in-training be able to build herself a palace?  Oh--and if she's not a princess?  She's a diva.  Oy.

Funny story--a guy I know has one of the "Keep Calm and Let It Go" t-shirts with Princess Elsa from "Frozen."  He's six-five, 250 pounds.  People were still calling him Princess.  I thought it was pretty awesome. 



 


justajane

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #162 on: December 11, 2014, 10:02:49 AM »
Oh, and guess what the Lego Friends sets are? Stephanie's Beachhouse, Heartlake Shopping Mall, Mia's Lemonade Stand, Heartlake Pet Salon, and (my personal favorite) Dolphin Cruiser, a two story yacht. Nothing gendered about that.....Apparently we should groom our daughters to become little Beyonces.   

No palace?  Shouldn't a princess-in-training be able to build herself a palace?  Oh--and if she's not a princess?  She's a diva.  Oy.

No full-sized palace, but you can buy one for your poodle. You just can't make this shit up.


tmac

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #163 on: December 11, 2014, 10:23:29 AM »
My daughter and I were Christmas shopping several years ago for my young son and we were perusing the Lego aisle. A little girl came in and joined my daughter in ogling the pirate ship set. What does her mother do? "No! That's for BOYS! You want THESE things over here," and drags her by the arm into the pink doll and tea cup section. My daughter and I just looked at each other, open mouthed.

Ok, maybe you don't push her toward the engineering toys if you don't value that, but to scold her and literally DRAG HER AWAY! My heart shrank three sizes that day.

Jenga

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #164 on: December 11, 2014, 10:42:33 AM »
My daughter and I were Christmas shopping several years ago for my young son and we were perusing the Lego aisle. A little girl came in and joined my daughter in ogling the pirate ship set. What does her mother do? "No! That's for BOYS! You want THESE things over here," and drags her by the arm into the pink doll and tea cup section. My daughter and I just looked at each other, open mouthed.

Ok, maybe you don't push her toward the engineering toys if you don't value that, but to scold her and literally DRAG HER AWAY! My heart shrank three sizes that day.

Ouch, that is depressing!  I always thought of Lego as a sort of universal toy...

We've got a mix of Lego - the "regular" kind (I guess this is considered to be the boys kind now?) and a few of the "girl" sets, and it is used pretty indiscriminately by both the boys and their younger sister.   She does like having the girl figures to play with, but the things she tends to build are pretty much along the same lines as the brother closest in age.  There's a lot of zoos, houses, and playgrounds. :)


SisterX

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #165 on: December 11, 2014, 10:51:31 AM »
The gendering for babies actually makes the most sense to me.  Babies look the same, boy or girl.  It's annoying when people come up to your newborn and ask for her name when he's a boy or vice versa.

That didn't annoy me in any capacity other than the fact that I had to answer that question a million times for strangers to whom the answer didn't actually matter.  What really threw me for a loop was when someone called my daughter a boy and I said she was a girl, then they'd get offended with me for not properly color-coding her!  "Oh, I couldn't tell.  She was wearing blue."  Yep, blue!  With bows on her socks and pigtails in her hair and you really can't tell from all that that she's a girl?  Really?  Nope, apparently I'm a horrible parent for not abiding by the color-coding standards of 2014 for girls.

Interesting side note: the idea that boy babies and girl babies should be dressed differently is actually really modern.  Up until about the early 1900s, all baby boys and girls were indiscriminately put in dresses, usually white, with a cap or bonnet on.    If you think it's hard to tell the gender of babies now, can you  imagine how it was then?  And yet people survived, even lived long enough to make little gender-neutral babies of their own!  It's miraculous, really, that even without complete strangers knowing the gender of one's child, it is possible for said child to make it through babyhood intact.

Sorry/not sorry for the extreme amount of snark on this subject.

Cressida

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #166 on: December 11, 2014, 11:01:43 AM »
The gendering for babies actually makes the most sense to me.  Babies look the same, boy or girl.  It's annoying when people come up to your newborn and ask for her name when he's a boy or vice versa.

Because? Why does it matter?

+1

SisterX

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #167 on: December 12, 2014, 11:51:03 AM »
Oh, and guess what the Lego Friends sets are? Stephanie's Beachhouse, Heartlake Shopping Mall, Mia's Lemonade Stand, Heartlake Pet Salon, and (my personal favorite) Dolphin Cruiser, a two story yacht. Nothing gendered about that.....Apparently we should groom our daughters to become little Beyonces.   

No palace?  Shouldn't a princess-in-training be able to build herself a palace?  Oh--and if she's not a princess?  She's a diva.  Oy.

Funny story--a guy I know has one of the "Keep Calm and Let It Go" t-shirts with Princess Elsa from "Frozen."  He's six-five, 250 pounds.  People were still calling him Princess.  I thought it was pretty awesome. 



 
Ha Ha! A pretty self confident guy. Some "princesses" rock (we all remember "Zena: The Warrior Princess" right). Back when I was working and in charge of an all male crew I got nicknamed after a TV Princess ("She-Ra: Princess of Power" twin sister of He-Man) from the mid-80's. They even brought in a doll - er..I mean action figure - to put up (tiny sword in hand). It stuck with me until the day I retired and I thought it was pretty cool. Unfortunately, like even the most awesome female "princess" role models, she was dressed in very short revealing dress and long hair undone. How the heck do you fight evil and lead the rebellion if you're literally falling out of your skimpy clothes :-)! It would be nioce to see female dolls and action figures in "real" clothes and doing real cool jobs - even if it is fighting evil doers.

"She-Ra, He-Man's twin sister, who is leading a group of freedom fighters known as the Great Rebellion in the hope of freeing their homeworld of Etheria from the tyrannical rule of Hordak and the Evil Horde."

She-Ra is my spirit animal.  :)  Sort of.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Traditional vs modern family values and gender roles
« Reply #168 on: December 12, 2014, 04:54:26 PM »
Heading happily OT ;-)

Try Google images Eowyn Dernhelm - someone properly dressed to face the Lord of the nazgul. Lots of armor, weapons, suitable.

I take consolation in all the loin-cloth clad "heroes" - they need to be pretty fast on their feet.  Same thing: google images Conan the barbarian.  At least he is wearing boots for good footing.

How the heck do you fight evil and lead the rebellion if you're literally falling out of your skimpy clothes :-)!  It would be nice to see female dolls and action figures in "real" clothes and doing real cool jobs - even if it is fighting evil doers.