Author Topic: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site  (Read 12264 times)

Khanjar

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2017, 12:42:35 AM »
Freshstash,
Quote
The point of the callout is typically to cue the offender to stop the behavior and reconsider it in light of the fact that people are letting them know they've (hopefully unintentionally) fucked up

Exactly how has somebody "fucked up" when they're discussing how much they've gotten out of talking to older people, only to have somebody who wants everyone to know how offended they are by the topic to wander through it?

How enriched was the topic by that calling out? What value did it bring, to anyone? The person that did the calling out gets to feel validated, having vanquished the darkness and corrected everyone's morals around them! What a shining star of a person!

Edit: Sorry, the person who did this in this case was actually older and offended somehow, I was making a strawman of young people being offended on behalf of others. We all decline with age, however, and that's just a sad fact of life for us all. Older "Fuddy duddys" is a thing though, whether or not an individual actually meets that stereotype. I'd bet Mustachians, DIY'ers and renaissance man types though would be the slowest to decline into that, but oh well.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/hanging-out-with-old-timers/
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:49:47 AM by Khanjar »

Khanjar

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2017, 12:56:57 AM »
And to add, the problem here isn't an objective standard of whether something is offensive or not. Nobody here will agree, which is exactly the problem with trying to ensure nobody is ever offended. What's offensive to me may or may not actually matter 5 seconds after I am offended(ah my sweet wonderful lack of short term memory for some things). The same is not true for everyone, and I cannot even pretend to empathize with what some people choose to take offense at.

freshstash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2017, 01:11:22 AM »
Freshstash,
Quote
The point of the callout is typically to cue the offender to stop the behavior and reconsider it in light of the fact that people are letting them know they've (hopefully unintentionally) fucked up

Exactly how has somebody "fucked up" when they're discussing how much they've gotten out of talking to older people, only to have somebody who wants everyone to know how offended they are by the topic to wander through it?

How enriched was the topic by that calling out? What value did it bring, to anyone? The person that did the calling out gets to feel validated, having vanquished the darkness and corrected everyone's morals around them! What a shining star of a person!

Edit: Sorry, the person who did this in this case was actually older and offended somehow, I was making a strawman of young people being offended on behalf of others. We all decline with age, however, and that's just a sad fact of life for us all. Older "Fuddy duddys" is a thing though, whether or not an individual actually meets that stereotype.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/hanging-out-with-old-timers/

If "this was hurtful to someone" is information that you find useful in continuing your line of thinking and minimizing your unintended harm in the future, that callout was valuable. If you don't give a shit about that I guess you don't. Constructing a strawman because you were so ready to come up with a justification for being mad that someone dared to point out that they were upset does make you look kind of defensive, though.

This particular example is weird to me because you're railing in defense of people who enjoy hanging out with older people, when the commenter was an older person going, hey, if you like hanging out with people over sixty, maybe try not calling us fuddy-duddies. If you want to enrich your relationships with older individuals, "don't be condescending and build relationships by relating as people, or you might hit a nerve" is a useful thing to keep in mind?

And to add, the problem here isn't an objective standard of whether something is offensive or not. Nobody here will agree, which is exactly the problem with trying to ensure nobody is ever offended. What's offensive to me may or may not actually matter 5 seconds after I am offended(ah my sweet wonderful lack of short term memory for some things). The same is not true for everyone, and I cannot even pretend to empathize with what some people choose to take offense at.

Of course there's no objective standard, though there are definitely accepted norms, and if someone told me "I'm being harmed by this" and someone else told me "no they're not and I didn't mean it anyway so there, probably I'M the one being harmed!" I'd tend to carefully consider where the real harm lay. I never said we could ensure no one would ever be offended.

What I did say was that the conversation-stopper is people getting upset that other people could possibly be calling their behavior out, and if we want conversations to continue, perhaps we should focus our exasperation on the individuals who can't take criticism without going into an indignant justification spiral. Are you seriously arguing for "because I can't empathize with what might hurt other people, they shouldn't have the right to tell me when I hurt them or make me question my behavior at all"? Come on, pal. You don't have to be super empathetic to take a note.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2017, 02:37:19 AM »
I've been disappointed by how threads or conversations IRL are stopped cold in their tracks by blunt accusations of homophobia/racism/sexism/ageism/etc. Sometimes that's appropriate when the speaker is being an ass on purpose. Other times it's a missed opportunity to have a discussion.

Maybe the speaker didn't realize how it sounded. Maybe they have solid reasons/evidence to back up their thought. Maybe they are looking for education. Maybe the listeners is attributing bad intentions when there aren't any.

For example, I thought the premise of the influence of gay people on fashion ideals was interesting. Yes, I understand there is a wide variety of what people find attractive. However, I could see that premise being covered in a dissertation of the influence of gay men on women's fashion and I'd like to know more about it, perhaps unconsciously. In my small, totally unscientific, non-fashion-centric world, I haven't heard anyone talk about how attractive anorexic models are. I've heard people say they can't relate to them or envision the clothes on themselves since their shape is so different. I've heard the models look unhealthy. So why is that the look designers use for their campaigns? Interesting question that could be a teachable moment, both for myself and for younger women who are looking at those models as the ideal.

There was another thread where people were sharing their experiences hanging out with older people. I thought it was a nice thread with people sharing good experiences, even if they were a little surprised by them, and might open others to the opportunity to connect with a different group of people. And someone chimed in to say it was ageism and they were more than a number. Yes, we all get that. No one was saying they only hang out with 73-year-olds, any other age is not acceptable. The ageism accusation put a damper on the conversation so instead of celebrating the relationships, it was hidden again. What good did "calling that out" do?
This exactly. Both threads where not blatantly offensive. They where just expressing an opinion that was open to be challenged. So the correct response is to investigate and refute their argument. Not "call out" that someone's opinion is not allowed and shut him down. These are not extreme opinions. I'm pretty sure that a large portion of the US holds similar views. Shutting down the discussion will not lead to understanding, but to resentment. If indeed as arebelspy said they will discuss it on a website where only people with the same opinion come society will split into subgroups which live in their own bubble of truth, distrusting outsiders in different bubbles. And as you see in politics today, that is really happening and is not desirable.

Demonizing people with different opinions, is not the enlightened way. It is more like calling for a mob to oust the outsiders.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2017, 03:54:32 AM »
For example, I thought the premise of the influence of gay people on fashion ideals was interesting. Yes, I understand there is a wide variety of what people find attractive. However, I could see that premise being covered in a dissertation of the influence of gay men on women's fashion and I'd like to know more about it, perhaps unconsciously. In my small, totally unscientific, non-fashion-centric world, I haven't heard anyone talk about how attractive anorexic models are. I've heard people say they can't relate to them or envision the clothes on themselves since their shape is so different. I've heard the models look unhealthy. So why is that the look designers use for their campaigns? Interesting question that could be a teachable moment, both for myself and for younger women who are looking at those models as the ideal.
Just very quickly on this: read the comment (the "serious joke") again. The word pre pubescent is important there, although lots of people might miss it. The comment, or at least my reading of it, conflates homosexuality with pedophilia and that's a big problem. There might indeed be a good discussion to be had on the influence of homosexual people on the fashion industry but that's not what that was about.

kayvent

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2017, 04:41:39 AM »
With regards to the first post made, the poster made a joke. A pretty common joke actually. They said immediately afterwards that they were joking. But they crossed a line nonetheless. Three people rebutted the post. A moderator strolling by edited it and the thread carried on.

So the forum seems to self-moderate. Perhaps this thread prompted those last two actions. I think someone would have rebutted it without this thread.

The comment, or at least my reading of it, conflates homosexuality with pedophilia and that's a big problem.

I think that is an unfair conclusion. The post is in response to women who said they struggled to stay below a certain weight and when they were under it, they looked "gauntly". That image is the one the beauty industry glamorizes. The poster (myself) is saying that mature, featured women are beautiful just the way they are. To describe how backwards they think the beauty industry is w.r.t. the typical (but not absolute) male's preference, they describe the industry's by using the most constrasting terms for "nubile woman". Pre-puberty and boy.

Comments can be accidentally or intentionally offensive on the internet. It is hard to discern which is what. I got reprimanded. There is now a whole thread about it. I smile at that. I am laughing at myself. And promise I'll be more careful.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 05:09:50 AM by kayvent »

GrumpyPenguin

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2017, 05:47:45 AM »
Comments can be accidentally or intentionally offensive on the internet. It is hard to discern which is what. I got reprimanded. There is now a whole thread about it. I smile at that. I am laughing at myself. And promise I'll be more careful.

I think this is a really great attitude.  Cheers.

My girlfriend used to catch me saying some stupid things that I hadn't realized were actually quite offensive to some demographics.  I didn't even know.  I may have said something defensive at the time, but later did realize that the things were wrong to say.  I don't say those things anymore.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 05:53:08 AM by GrumpyPenguin »

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2017, 06:32:54 AM »
I live in a neighborhood in a fairly diverse community in the suburbs and some of my neighors are Indian immigrants. For the most part, they assimilate fairly well with the rest of the community. They come from a democratic country, so they participate in local government and the local school board. They are usually polite and friendly. I work with some of them quite closely at my two jobs and they are willing to listen and communicate in a non-confrontational manner.

They do tend to continue to dress in their native style from India, but that hardly matters. Fashion is a matter of personal choice. Sometimes, I also suspect that they defer to me a little too much due to cultural factors.

The biggest problem we have had with them as a community is their tendency to be really harsh toward Muslims. We have a small minority of Muslim business owners who are minding their own business and not bothering anybody, but sometimes the rhetoric from the Indian community can be a little scary. Nobody has taken any action, but there have been a few peaceful public rallies.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2017, 07:08:53 AM »
I've been disappointed by how threads or conversations IRL are stopped cold in their tracks by blunt accusations of homophobia/racism/sexism/ageism/etc. Sometimes that's appropriate when the speaker is being an ass on purpose. Other times it's a missed opportunity to have a discussion.

Maybe the speaker didn't realize how it sounded. Maybe they have solid reasons/evidence to back up their thought. Maybe they are looking for education. Maybe the listeners is attributing bad intentions when there aren't any.

For example, I thought the premise of the influence of gay people on fashion ideals was interesting. Yes, I understand there is a wide variety of what people find attractive. However, I could see that premise being covered in a dissertation of the influence of gay men on women's fashion and I'd like to know more about it, perhaps unconsciously. In my small, totally unscientific, non-fashion-centric world, I haven't heard anyone talk about how attractive anorexic models are. I've heard people say they can't relate to them or envision the clothes on themselves since their shape is so different. I've heard the models look unhealthy. So why is that the look designers use for their campaigns? Interesting question that could be a teachable moment, both for myself and for younger women who are looking at those models as the ideal.

There was another thread where people were sharing their experiences hanging out with older people. I thought it was a nice thread with people sharing good experiences, even if they were a little surprised by them, and might open others to the opportunity to connect with a different group of people. And someone chimed in to say it was ageism and they were more than a number. Yes, we all get that. No one was saying they only hang out with 73-year-olds, any other age is not acceptable. The ageism accusation put a damper on the conversation so instead of celebrating the relationships, it was hidden again. What good did "calling that out" do?

Oops--on the "Hanging Out With Older People" thread, I think you're talking about my comment. I can't find the thread to refresh my memory on exactly what the relevant posts were, but I know I didn't say anything that would put a damper on anybody's conversation
--at least I hope I didn't. May the discussions continue!

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2017, 11:13:46 AM »
The point of the callout is typically to cue the offender to stop the behavior and reconsider it in light of the fact that people are letting them know they've (hopefully unintentionally) fucked up, so the original conversation can smoothly resume, and harmful shit doesn't just sit there unchallenged in the meantime. I agree that the defensiveness of people who get called out can lead to those conversations ending anyway. But I don't agree that we should sacrifice the ability to call out harmful shit on the altar of people being too defensive to take the criticism and keep the conversation going.

Gosh, it's almost as if people have feelings!

The purpose of the public "callout" is not to politely correct someone for ignorant or unenlightened behavior. The purpose of the public "callout" is to publicly shame someone deemed lesser than to help reinforce one's own smug sense of self-righteousness. If one doesn't want to actually arrest public discourse, and actually desires to educate someone who supposedly doesn't have as much of the puzzle of life put together as one thinks they do, perhaps before chucking that particular stone it would be a good idea to temper that frustration or anger with a little empathy first.

"What if I were the arsehole in this situation? How would I react to public shaming? Is public shaming genuinely effective for correcting trivial offenses of ignorance, or does it just make me feel better doing it and earn me public approval from my own tribe of imperfect arseholes? Do I want to help nurture educated independence in others and allow for their own perspective and understanding to help continue to add to the rich dialogue while still helping to clue them into something they may not have considered or understood, or do I want to take responsibility for how everyone thinks and tell them how to behave?"

Even when you are right, contemplate for a moment the possibility that you are wrong first. Ask how you would want to be treated yourself.

It hasn't been that long ago that even I carried this mentality of harsh public rebuke as being okay. "Treat others how I would like to be treated." I didn't mind it, and really don't mind public correction myself - but I am not everyone. Most people have much thinner skin than I do, and we're talking about ideas and concepts that help shape and define the very sense of self. People get defensive and protective about that, and honestly, if anyone can't understand and appreciate that fact and exercise a bit more kindness in your interactions because of it? Guess what, YOU ARE THE ARSEHOLE, not the target of your "callout". Finally coming to this realization helped me to understand how I had failed many times in the past to try and "help" people here and elsewhere with many things. I was the arsehole for my behavior, not them. If you want to correct someone who is "wrong", it's on you to help ensure you preserve their dignity in doing so, and to do so in a loving manner with a purpose of education instead of one driven by vengeance. You can only answer for your own choices and actions.

After all, what's the first rule of these forums? Don't be a jerk.

Frankly, deliberately publicly shaming someone with, "What is this _____ bullshit?" on an unintentional offense rooted in personal experience and understanding crosses that line far more than the comment that inspired it because they were words deliberately intended to be offensive to the reader.

I don't doubt the hearts desiring to help and uplift others, desiring justice and greater equality... but you don't get to do that by being as bad as or worse than those you're trying to enlighten. Two wrongs don't make a right, and an eye for an eye only leaves the whole world blind. There are ways to gently correct that preserves the dignity of the person in the wrong. There's also value in the ideas of being slow to anger and quick to forgiveness, as well as never assuming malice where ignorance can easily explain an offense, and recognizing that we should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it.

Are there trolls? Absolutely. Is it appropriate to publicly call out trolls if they're unchanging and abusive? Absolutely. Should we help others expand their horizons of understanding? Absolutely. Most people aren't trolls, they're just people with different experiences than you've had, and should be treated with the fundamental respect due all humans. Love your neighbor as yourself. Nobody is perfect and omniscient enough to have the unflappable moral high ground, and behaving like you do is a sure-fire indication that you don't. Helping to restore their glory does far more than tearing it down through public spectacle.

Yeshua had some valuable words on this subject. Matthew 7:3-5 and 18:15 (according to the NIV translation) reads, "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." and "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over."

It works because it relies on self-awareness and introspection first, and provides dignity to those you desire to help, both by going to them privately and by recognizing that you yourself may be just as guilty of the same offense in your own special way, and that you may have needed just as much help, patience and forgiveness to be better as they do. In doing so, the comment has not gone unchallenged, because the person who wrote it has come to a greater understanding and is unlikely to keep and repeat the old idea. That is what actually matters. Not knee-jerk reactions that make you and others feel better. Not red text. Changing minds is what matters most. This doesn't mean that public dialogue on the subject can't and shouldn't be appropriate, but it has its place and there is wisdom in knowing when it is appropriate.

I don't see much kindness in this thread, despite the motivation, because the steps being promoted to combat the problems are not ones rooted in love - but the very same hatred that inspires the cries for justice in the first place. You want this place to be better and kinder and more inclusive? It starts with your own actions and behavior in how you treat others, and not with publicly shaming or censoring those who speak out of ignorance.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 11:19:08 AM by I.P. Daley »
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dycker1978

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2017, 11:33:05 AM »
My child is gender diverse, and I have started a foundation to help combat the bigotry that goes against the LGBT community.  I have found that the best way to combat these cases of bigotry is to deem then not intentional and privately confront the person, not in a butthurt fashion, but in a way that you feel what they said may be deemed offensive to some, explain why and have a educational conversation about it.  This will allow the "offender" to change if they are so inclined, or to proves, as some have said, they are an asshole.  As IP said, public shaming someone will a majority of the time get people defensive, where as a private conversation, may actually advance education, teach someone something and have positive results.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2017, 11:44:24 AM »
The point of the callout is typically to cue the offender to stop the behavior and reconsider it in light of the fact that people are letting them know they've (hopefully unintentionally) fucked up, so the original conversation can smoothly resume, and harmful shit doesn't just sit there unchallenged in the meantime. I agree that the defensiveness of people who get called out can lead to those conversations ending anyway. But I don't agree that we should sacrifice the ability to call out harmful shit on the altar of people being too defensive to take the criticism and keep the conversation going.

Gosh, it's almost as if people have feelings!

The purpose of the public "callout" is not to politely correct someone for ignorant or unenlightened behavior. The purpose of the public "callout" is to publicly shame someone deemed lesser than to help reinforce one's own smug sense of self-righteousness. If one doesn't want to actually arrest public discourse, and actually desires to educate someone who supposedly doesn't have as much of the puzzle of life put together as one thinks they do, perhaps before chucking that particular stone it would be a good idea to temper that frustration or anger with a little empathy first.

"What if I were the arsehole in this situation? How would I react to public shaming? Is public shaming genuinely effective for correcting trivial offenses of ignorance, or does it just make me feel better doing it and earn me public approval from my own tribe of imperfect arseholes? Do I want to help nurture educated independence in others and allow for their own perspective and understanding to help continue to add to the rich dialogue while still helping to clue them into something they may not have considered or understood, or do I want to take responsibility for how everyone thinks and tell them how to behave?"

Even when you are right, contemplate for a moment the possibility that you are wrong first. Ask how you would want to be treated yourself.

It hasn't been that long ago that even I carried this mentality of harsh public rebuke as being okay. "Treat others how I would like to be treated." I didn't mind it, and really don't mind public correction myself - but I am not everyone. Most people have much thinner skin than I do, and we're talking about ideas and concepts that help shape and define the very sense of self. People get defensive and protective about that, and honestly, if anyone can't understand and appreciate that fact and exercise a bit more kindness in your interactions because of it? Guess what, YOU ARE THE ARSEHOLE, not the target of your "callout". Finally coming to this realization helped me to understand how I had failed many times in the past to try and "help" people here and elsewhere with many things. I was the arsehole for my behavior, not them. If you want to correct someone who is "wrong", it's on you to help ensure you preserve their dignity in doing so, and to do so in a loving manner with a purpose of education instead of one driven by vengeance. You can only answer for your own choices and actions.

After all, what's the first rule of these forums? Don't be a jerk.

Frankly, deliberately publicly shaming someone with, "What is this _____ bullshit?" on an unintentional offense rooted in personal experience and understanding crosses that line far more than the comment that inspired it because they were words deliberately intended to be offensive to the reader.

I don't doubt the hearts desiring to help and uplift others, desiring justice and greater equality... but you don't get to do that by being as bad as or worse than those you're trying to enlighten. Two wrongs don't make a right, and an eye for an eye only leaves the whole world blind. There are ways to gently correct that preserves the dignity of the person in the wrong. There's also value in the ideas of being slow to anger and quick to forgiveness, as well as never assuming malice where ignorance can easily explain an offense, and recognizing that we should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it.

Are there trolls? Absolutely. Is it appropriate to publicly call out trolls if they're unchanging and abusive? Absolutely. Should we help others expand their horizons of understanding? Absolutely. Most people aren't trolls, they're just people with different experiences than you've had, and should be treated with the fundamental respect due all humans. Love your neighbor as yourself. Nobody is perfect and omniscient enough to have the unflappable moral high ground, and behaving like you do is a sure-fire indication that you don't. Helping to restore their glory does far more than tearing it down through public spectacle.

Yeshua had some valuable words on this subject. Matthew 7:3-5 and 18:15 (according to the NIV translation) reads, "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." and "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over."

It works because it relies on self-awareness and introspection first, and provides dignity to those you desire to help, both by going to them privately and by recognizing that you yourself may be just as guilty of the same offense in your own special way, and that you may have needed just as much help, patience and forgiveness to be better as they do. In doing so, the comment has not gone unchallenged, because the person who wrote it has come to a greater understanding and is unlikely to keep and repeat the old idea. That is what actually matters. Not knee-jerk reactions that make you and others feel better. Not red text. Changing minds is what matters most. This doesn't mean that public dialogue on the subject can't and shouldn't be appropriate, but it has its place and there is wisdom in knowing when it is appropriate.

I don't see much kindness in this thread, despite the motivation, because the steps being promoted to combat the problems are not ones rooted in love - but the very same hatred that inspires the cries for justice in the first place. You want this place to be better and kinder and more inclusive? It starts with your own actions and behavior in how you treat others, and not with publicly shaming or censoring those who speak out of ignorance.
I.P. I have to disagree.  Part of the reason for the public call out is to make it clear to others, who have been hurt by the comment that the rest of us do not agree with it.  Otherwise, you have people who have seen that behavior is acceptable to this group, and leave because of it.  I, myself, left a money forum specifically because of very sexist person was allowed to be a moderator are therefore would not be called out on his sexism.  That was not a culture I was willing to be part of, so I left.  If you do something, you risk being called out on that action because in public because your first action was in public. 
I've seen people take the correction and change, in public and it never shut down anything.  The idea that you might have to be almost as uncomfortable as those you made uncomfortable with your comment, is not a bad thing.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2017, 11:46:55 AM »
I think it's clear when someone calls something out for preen cred, or when they're trying to make it clear that sort of talk isn't cool.
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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2017, 12:17:09 PM »
I.P. I have to disagree.

If mob rule is inappropriate one way, why is it appropriate the other? The end result is the same - someone gets alienated, hearts are hardened, and nobody learns anything. If you want to alienate people and harden feelings and behaviors, go for it. If you want to change minds, then perhaps the best course of actions is one of kindness and education one on one and/or expressing empathy for those you feel compassion for privately, instead of wasting precious resources getting publicly offended and picking fights for other people on their behalf.

This is the line between judgment and justice.



I think it's clear when someone calls something out for preen cred, or when they're trying to make it clear that sort of talk isn't cool.

I would disagree, and even go so far as to make the comment that some of the moderating lately is actually making more mountains out of molehills. There appears to be personal bias blinding one to successfully differentiating that very line by allowing abusive language to stand from the people who are supposedly "in the right" doing the behavioral callouts. Abusive language is abusive language, whether made out of ignorance or made in defense. Public callouts of accidental offense can be just as destructive to a community than the offense itself.

How quickly we forget.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:18:45 PM by I.P. Daley »
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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2017, 12:18:07 PM »
I think there's a balance to be had, and to be fair a balance I did not strike in my call out in the homophobic thread.  In general in real life I am a fan of "call in culture", where issues are addressed in private and with empathy.  It is easier to give someone the benefit of the doubt when you're already pretty sure the intent was not malicious.

But on the internet, the intent sometimes is malicious, or it can be very hard to infer intent.  In addition, there often is not a personal relationship.  So I think the balance shifts towards addressing things publicly, albeit with empathy.

That said, I don't think it's fair to say someone reacting in anger to a discriminatory remark is acting out of hatred.  They may be acting out of anger, or resignation, but I don't think making a discriminatory remark and reacting to that remark in anger are morally equivalent like I. P. asserts.

I.P. Daley

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2017, 12:33:04 PM »
That said, I don't think it's fair to say someone reacting in anger to a discriminatory remark is acting out of hatred.  They may be acting out of anger, or resignation, but I don't think making a discriminatory remark and reacting to that remark in anger are morally equivalent like I. P. asserts.

And I would like to respond by stating that I did not make such an assertion of blanket equivalence. There is such a thing as righteous anger, and it too has its place and appropriate expression, but very little anger in life is righteous even when one feels that anger while being in the right. It's far too easy to lose that moral high ground in expressing that anger and slip into even accidental hatred, because anger by its nature with us messy and imperfect humans tends to bring out the worst in ourselves and others. As such, it is an emotion best applied very sparingly, and to the sin itself, not the sinner.

It brings joy to my heart to hear that you are a fan of the "call in culture", let me encourage you to not abandon that empathy even in your dealings online. The very reasons you cite regarding the difficulty to infer intent with words online along with the lack of personal relationship should be the very reason to try and approach one-on-one first over public response... not a reason to avoid it.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:34:50 PM by I.P. Daley »
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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2017, 12:37:31 PM »

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2017, 01:21:20 PM »
I think it's clear when someone calls something out for preen cred, or when they're trying to make it clear that sort of talk isn't cool.

I would disagree, and even go so far as to make the comment that some of the moderating lately is actually making more mountains out of molehills. There appears to be personal bias blinding one to successfully differentiating that very line by allowing abusive language to stand from the people who are supposedly "in the right" doing the behavioral callouts. Abusive language is abusive language, whether made out of ignorance or made in defense. Public callouts of accidental offense can be just as destructive to a community than the offense itself.

If the call out language is abusive, it should be itself called out and/or reported as well.

As I said earlier:
We should all try to gently call out behaviors that are not in keeping with the type of community we'd like to cultivate.

In general, it'd be nice not to see a lot of threads devolve into calling each other out, but a gentle reminder ("That's uncalled for" type message) is a great idea.

IDK why you assume that callout has to be abusive or rude. But if it is, it's being done in the wrong manner, and spirit.
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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2017, 02:52:34 PM »
I totally agree with I.P. Daley.  He said it better than I ever could. 

I'll add something else.  The current political environment has driven much of the LGBTQ community into a George Bush "you're either with us or against us" type hysteria.  And often the result are people from smug, white liberal enclaves with very precisely defined ideas of what is "right" going bonkers online.  They call out others on forums with a "when did you stop molesting your children" self-righteousness and clothing themselves with an ego masturbatory suffering martyr complex not seen since the persecution of Christianity. 

Recently on another forum a poster off handedly used the word "fag".  A smug "arsehole" from Humboldt county California called her out, accusing her of enabling homophobia, etc.  He even went as far as demanding she or the mods remove her post.  The punchline?  The "evil" poster using the verboten word was herself a lesbian.  And no lipstick lesbian, but a full on out of the closet half head shaven piercing wearing, I go to NYC to celebrate Stonewall "I don't give a fuck what other people think" lesbian.  And she lives in a part of the country where homophobia - sometimes violent homophobia - isn't mere hysteria.  Attempts by her and I to mollify the arshole were to no avail and he left the forum in a huff, basically calling us all Nazis on the way out. 

The LGBTQ is a minority in this country.  Not everyone has a direct relation to it.  But many, if not most people, at least on an intellectual level, sympathize with them.  Even if they don't hew to exacting moral platitudes defined by Sociologist majors in San Francisco, Portland, NYC etc.  And again, if you think that this is a problem that only effects LGBTQ vs. everyone else, check the headline "If You Hate the New Pride Flag, You're the Problem" from The Advocate (concerning the recent brown and black stripes addition to the gay pride flag to represent race) to see where this is going. 

The fight for social justice is an important part of America.  It doesn't serve it to balkanize movements, inside and out, into competing cliques.  Cliques with ideological purity tests which paint them into a corner so they one day look around to see "us" is vanishingly small and "them" is overwhelming large and utterly unsympathetic. 

Edit: "clique" not "click"  Thanks Khanjar.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:00:03 PM by EricL »
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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2017, 03:31:30 PM »
...
I.P. I have to disagree.  Part of the reason for the public call out is to make it clear to others, who have been hurt by the comment that the rest of us do not agree with it.  Otherwise, you have people who have seen that behavior is acceptable to this group, and leave because of it.  I, myself, left a money forum specifically because of very sexist person was allowed to be a moderator are therefore would not be called out on his sexism.  That was not a culture I was willing to be part of, so I left.  If you do something, you risk being called out on that action because in public because your first action was in public. 
I've seen people take the correction and change, in public and it never shut down anything.  The idea that you might have to be almost as uncomfortable as those you made uncomfortable with your comment, is not a bad thing.

I.P.,

I've been thinking about this myself a lot recently and I really like what you said in your post about addressing it in private instead of in public.  But I'm curious how you would address the problem with that method identified by Gin.  I would like to be sympathetic to people who mistakenly make offensive comments, but I am also worried about reassuring those potentially hurt by those comments that they are not alone.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2017, 08:53:15 PM »
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

The fact that lizzzi's comment and Simple's were both cited in this thread as examples of terrible callouts stopping discussion and hurting people leads me to believe that the issue is still that people don't want their behavior questioned, not reactivity to which tone is used. If you looked at every time someone has argued and derailed a topic after another poster used some permutation of "hey man not cool" on this board, I think you would find that the only common point was a lot of people who were uncomfortable with taking criticism.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2017, 12:11:18 AM »
Thanks for this thread, SimpleCycle.
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

The fact that lizzzi's comment and Simple's were both cited in this thread as examples of terrible callouts stopping discussion and hurting people leads me to believe that the issue is still that people don't want their behavior questioned, not reactivity to which tone is used. If you looked at every time someone has argued and derailed a topic after another poster used some permutation of "hey man not cool" on this board, I think you would find that the only common point was a lot of people who were uncomfortable with taking criticism.
+1

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2017, 05:06:32 AM »
I haven't read the entire thread. But as an older person myself, and just as an internet user in general, I cannot see how any post could ever "hurt my feelings" as long as it wasn't personally directed at me. People say all kinds of stupid and uniformed stuff all the time on the internet and if you're going to decide to get your feelings hurt about it, well that's kind of your own problem. There seems to be an expectation that criticism/stereotype  of protected classes (not even sure age is considered a "protected class") is just so much worse, and so much more hurtful *per se* than any other kind of blanket criticism. But this is actually kind of arbitrary and strange, in my book.  Actually, if I were to find statements made by people I've never met and don't know hurtful, I would be more hurt if someone said something snide about "those who are stupid enough to let neighbors use their pools while they are away," than about old people since the former is more personally directed at me.

There's also a misconception, I think, that remarks can be hurtful and upsetting in themselves whereas it is always a choice whether or not to allow oneself to get upset over something. In fact, part of growing up is learning that we have power over our emotional responses and learning not to upset ourselves.

Another point: It's like the Internet gives us an eavesdropping superpower. We can listen in to a gazillion conversations that before the Internet we just couldn't hear. Is it really reasonable to get upset if any conversation has a remark that can possibilty be deemed sexist, racist or phomophobic? Are we going to thought police the world?

This said, if someone feels that someone is attacking a group of people or is showing a dangerous  ignorance in some way, then yes, there should be push back about that -- a rebuttal and a discussion. If the comment really seems to be intentionally offensive, then the mods should take care of the situation, deleting or editing the post as necessary and adding a warning. But again, I do not see the "personal feelings" of a forum member should enter into the equation unless there were personally attached and ideally not even then.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 05:16:25 AM by Melisande »

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2017, 05:25:46 AM »
Socially acceptable behaviour is defined by a group culture. The group itself defines it. When we are young, our parents define it for us. When we pick our nose in public were told that's not OK.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out to someone that their behaviour is not acceptable in a certain setting. The purpose of this post was to ask - is this type of talk tolerable on here, or not? It's up to us as a community to decide. Personally I would rather have this place be welcoming and friendly to all. If at means the occasional comment of "hey, it's not cool to say that here" then I am fine with that. As long as the commenter is not abusive, I don't see why it's a problem to call someone out on ignorant or insensitive remarks. It's how we define a community - by setting reasonable boundaries.

We disagree on what those boundaries are, on the surface - but even a "don't be so sensitive" commenter in this thread admitted they wanted the place to be friendly and welcoming. How can anyone account for both - creating a welcoming environment, while allowing offensive comments? What is the harm in defining a boundary to prevent the latter?

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2017, 05:53:40 AM »
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

The fact that lizzzi's comment and Simple's were both cited in this thread as examples of terrible callouts stopping discussion and hurting people leads me to believe that the issue is still that people don't want their behavior questioned, not reactivity to which tone is used. If you looked at every time someone has argued and derailed a topic after another poster used some permutation of "hey man not cool" on this board, I think you would find that the only common point was a lot of people who were uncomfortable with taking criticism.

Jeez Louise, I never thought my comment on the "Friends with Older People" thread would be taken so seriously, or generate discussion on this thread. I did not mean to sound as "heavy" as some people seem to be taking it. I didn't mean to make a "terrible callout" and certainly apologize if it was taken that way. Let's see if I can summarize my philosophy--I am not a hugely deep thinker--but something like this: Live and let live. Include everybody. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Love each other.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #75 on: July 05, 2017, 06:14:44 AM »
I haven't read the entire thread. But as an older person myself, and just as an internet user in general, I cannot see how any post could ever "hurt my feelings" as long as it wasn't personally directed at me. People say all kinds of stupid and uniformed stuff all the time on the internet and if you're going to decide to get your feelings hurt about it, well that's kind of your own problem. There seems to be an expectation that criticism/stereotype  of protected classes (not even sure age is considered a "protected class") is just so much worse, and so much more hurtful *per se* than any other kind of blanket criticism. But this is actually kind of arbitrary and strange, in my book.  Actually, if I were to find statements made by people I've never met and don't know hurtful, I would be more hurt if someone said something snide about "those who are stupid enough to let neighbors use their pools while they are away," than about old people since the former is more personally directed at me.

There's also a misconception, I think, that remarks can be hurtful and upsetting in themselves whereas it is always a choice whether or not to allow oneself to get upset over something. In fact, part of growing up is learning that we have power over our emotional responses and learning not to upset ourselves.

Another point: It's like the Internet gives us an eavesdropping superpower. We can listen in to a gazillion conversations that before the Internet we just couldn't hear. Is it really reasonable to get upset if any conversation has a remark that can possibilty be deemed sexist, racist or phomophobic? Are we going to thought police the world?

This said, if someone feels that someone is attacking a group of people or is showing a dangerous  ignorance in some way, then yes, there should be push back about that -- a rebuttal and a discussion. If the comment really seems to be intentionally offensive, then the mods should take care of the situation, deleting or editing the post as necessary and adding a warning. But again, I do not see the "personal feelings" of a forum member should enter into the equation unless there were personally attached and ideally not even then.

Another part of becoming an adult is learning that what we say and do affects other people. Maybe I'm fortunate enough to live in a very diverse and accepting city, but I don't feel it's a very high bar to request that people not say racist, sexist or homophobic things in a public place.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #76 on: July 05, 2017, 07:13:34 AM »
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

The fact that lizzzi's comment and Simple's were both cited in this thread as examples of terrible callouts stopping discussion and hurting people leads me to believe that the issue is still that people don't want their behavior questioned, not reactivity to which tone is used. If you looked at every time someone has argued and derailed a topic after another poster used some permutation of "hey man not cool" on this board, I think you would find that the only common point was a lot of people who were uncomfortable with taking criticism.

Jeez Louise, I never thought my comment on the "Friends with Older People" thread would be taken so seriously, or generate discussion on this thread. I did not mean to sound as "heavy" as some people seem to be taking it. I didn't mean to make a "terrible callout" and certainly apologize if it was taken that way. Let's see if I can summarize my philosophy--I am not a hugely deep thinker--but something like this: Live and let live. Include everybody. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Love each other.

For what it's worth, I thought your comment was totally fine, lizzzi. I was alluding to the conversation I had earlier in this thread about how your comment was apparently pointless and added nothing to the discussion. I disagree and found/find your perspective interesting.

I am confused but unsurprised that the argument against Simple's point continues to be, summarized:
- Anyone who feels a remark they see was harmful and points this out, at any level of emphasis, is weak and oversensitive at best and self-congratulatory and vicious at worst, unless they meet some kind of mysterious stress test of "legitimacy" (this has no definition except "doesn't make me defensive to see")
- Anyone who made said remark, however, is a human being with feelings. Their reacting emotionally rather than logically to criticism is expected and natural
- We are on a forum where swearing is encouraged and tough love in the direction of bettering yourself is the norm, but making hurtful mistakes with regard to groups who get shit on a lot is somehow exempt from this and probably thought policing. Therefore "That clown car is bullshit, sell it" is acceptable and "That unintentional implication that gay men are pedophiles is bullshit, don't say that" is not
- There are people who don't see the cognitive dissonance here.

Holding people who see potential harm in a statement to a higher standard of emotional toughness and mistake-free articulation of their point than the party being criticized is a weird double standard and frankly illogical. So is separating criticism for what you say and how you say it from criticism about every other aspect of your life.

I mean, I get it. I have the empathy of a brick and formulated most of the points I'm making in here by running my face into a wall a lot till I stepped back and examined my own reactions to criticism. I can probably relate a lot more to the people arguing with me than with the people who have called me out over the years. But I was being an idiot.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #77 on: July 05, 2017, 07:44:32 AM »
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

The fact that lizzzi's comment and Simple's were both cited in this thread as examples of terrible callouts stopping discussion and hurting people leads me to believe that the issue is still that people don't want their behavior questioned, not reactivity to which tone is used. If you looked at every time someone has argued and derailed a topic after another poster used some permutation of "hey man not cool" on this board, I think you would find that the only common point was a lot of people who were uncomfortable with taking criticism.

Jeez Louise, I never thought my comment on the "Friends with Older People" thread would be taken so seriously, or generate discussion on this thread. I did not mean to sound as "heavy" as some people seem to be taking it. I didn't mean to make a "terrible callout" and certainly apologize if it was taken that way. Let's see if I can summarize my philosophy--I am not a hugely deep thinker--but something like this: Live and let live. Include everybody. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Love each other.

For what it's worth, I thought your comment was totally fine, lizzzi. I was alluding to the conversation I had earlier in this thread about how your comment was apparently pointless and added nothing to the discussion. I disagree and found/find your perspective interesting.

I am confused but unsurprised that the argument against Simple's point continues to be, summarized:
- Anyone who feels a remark they see was harmful and points this out, at any level of emphasis, is weak and oversensitive at best and self-congratulatory and vicious at worst, unless they meet some kind of mysterious stress test of "legitimacy" (this has no definition except "doesn't make me defensive to see")
- Anyone who made said remark, however, is a human being with feelings. Their reacting emotionally rather than logically to criticism is expected and natural
- We are on a forum where swearing is encouraged and tough love in the direction of bettering yourself is the norm, but making hurtful mistakes with regard to groups who get shit on a lot is somehow exempt from this and probably thought policing. Therefore "That clown car is bullshit, sell it" is acceptable and "That unintentional implication that gay men are pedophiles is bullshit, don't say that" is not
- There are people who don't see the cognitive dissonance here.

Holding people who see potential harm in a statement to a higher standard of emotional toughness and mistake-free articulation of their point than the party being criticized is a weird double standard and frankly illogical. So is separating criticism for what you say and how you say it from criticism about every other aspect of your life.

I mean, I get it. I have the empathy of a brick and formulated most of the points I'm making in here by running my face into a wall a lot till I stepped back and examined my own reactions to criticism. I can probably relate a lot more to the people arguing with me than with the people who have called me out over the years. But I was being an idiot.

Stop, stop, stop. No, you're not an idiot--and please don't run your face into the wall.

freshstash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #78 on: July 05, 2017, 07:55:14 AM »
Lizzzi, it's cool! I certainly don't think I'm an idiot. We all have past behavior we're a bit embarrassed to remember.

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #79 on: July 05, 2017, 08:03:51 AM »
: D    Well, that's the truth. Have a nice day, fresh stash!

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #80 on: July 05, 2017, 08:30:46 AM »
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

The fact that lizzzi's comment and Simple's were both cited in this thread as examples of terrible callouts stopping discussion and hurting people leads me to believe that the issue is still that people don't want their behavior questioned, not reactivity to which tone is used. If you looked at every time someone has argued and derailed a topic after another poster used some permutation of "hey man not cool" on this board, I think you would find that the only common point was a lot of people who were uncomfortable with taking criticism.

Jeez Louise, I never thought my comment on the "Friends with Older People" thread would be taken so seriously, or generate discussion on this thread. I did not mean to sound as "heavy" as some people seem to be taking it. I didn't mean to make a "terrible callout" and certainly apologize if it was taken that way. Let's see if I can summarize my philosophy--I am not a hugely deep thinker--but something like this: Live and let live. Include everybody. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Love each other.

For what it's worth, I thought your comment was totally fine, lizzzi. I was alluding to the conversation I had earlier in this thread about how your comment was apparently pointless and added nothing to the discussion. I disagree and found/find your perspective interesting.

I am confused but unsurprised that the argument against Simple's point continues to be, summarized:
- Anyone who feels a remark they see was harmful and points this out, at any level of emphasis, is weak and oversensitive at best and self-congratulatory and vicious at worst, unless they meet some kind of mysterious stress test of "legitimacy" (this has no definition except "doesn't make me defensive to see")
- Anyone who made said remark, however, is a human being with feelings. Their reacting emotionally rather than logically to criticism is expected and natural
- We are on a forum where swearing is encouraged and tough love in the direction of bettering yourself is the norm, but making hurtful mistakes with regard to groups who get shit on a lot is somehow exempt from this and probably thought policing. Therefore "That clown car is bullshit, sell it" is acceptable and "That unintentional implication that gay men are pedophiles is bullshit, don't say that" is not
- There are people who don't see the cognitive dissonance here.

Holding people who see potential harm in a statement to a higher standard of emotional toughness and mistake-free articulation of their point than the party being criticized is a weird double standard and frankly illogical. So is separating criticism for what you say and how you say it from criticism about every other aspect of your life.

I mean, I get it. I have the empathy of a brick and formulated most of the points I'm making in here by running my face into a wall a lot till I stepped back and examined my own reactions to criticism. I can probably relate a lot more to the people arguing with me than with the people who have called me out over the years. But I was being an idiot.

I really like this post. Thanks, freshstash
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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #81 on: July 05, 2017, 08:49:54 AM »
Socially acceptable behaviour is defined by a group culture. The group itself defines it. When we are young, our parents define it for us. When we pick our nose in public were told that's not OK.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out to someone that their behaviour is not acceptable in a certain setting. The purpose of this post was to ask - is this type of talk tolerable on here, or not? It's up to us as a community to decide. Personally I would rather have this place be welcoming and friendly to all. If at means the occasional comment of "hey, it's not cool to say that here" then I am fine with that. As long as the commenter is not abusive, I don't see why it's a problem to call someone out on ignorant or insensitive remarks. It's how we define a community - by setting reasonable boundaries.

We disagree on what those boundaries are, on the surface - but even a "don't be so sensitive" commenter in this thread admitted they wanted the place to be friendly and welcoming. How can anyone account for both - creating a welcoming environment, while allowing offensive comments? What is the harm in defining a boundary to prevent the latter?

I think there is a balance to be had and I think we already have it. I already think this forum is friendly and welcoming ... enough. I think it is a mistake to be overly concerned with making a space completely free of whatever is deemed racist, agist, homophobic, etc. by any individual poster. If there is an there is an egregious violation of norms, I'm sure that the moderators can handle it as they have in the past. I say this as someone who was a long-time member of a(n academic) forum where concern for creating a perfectly tolerant on-line community paradoxically devolved into general nastiness. This nastiness was particularly reserved for any new posters who began to be held to much higher standards in this regard than the oldsters (the ones often engaged in the education hazing). This forum used to be great, but it is dying now. I'm not sure that the strangely intolerant concern for inclusion was the sole factor here, but I'm sure it contributed.

I have also had the experience of being the co-author of a "Covenant of Right Relations," a document laying out the optimal way of being together and treating each other in my Unitarian church. I had some misgivings when I heard that this document was going to be drafted. It just seemed really controlling to me. That is why I got involved. If we were going to have a document like this I wanted it to be as genuinely tolerant and un-controlling as possible. Even with this effort, I can say that this document has created more conflict than it has resolved.

Yes, it is important to have boundaries. But the best boundaries are flexible, even a little porous, not rigid. Or to use a cliché my husband is fond of: "Don't let the perfect get in the way of the good."



« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 08:51:58 AM by Melisande »

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2017, 08:57:24 AM »
It never ceases to amaze me how discourse has changed in the age of the internet.  I am old enough that I remember having discussions in groups before online forums and social media.   Not seeing someone’s face and observing their body language really makes such a huge difference.  Also, it astonishes me the things that people will say “out loud” to essentially anyone that will listen.  THis has really been such an abrupt cultural change, and we are still, as a species, learning to navigate it.


I bet 85% of the comments people say regarding sexual orientation, race or gender they would not say in person to a real live human being.  Honestly, can you even picture the guy who said that gay people are responsible for the negative aspects of fashion culture saying it to someone’s face?  And especially to a bunch of strangers they have never met?  It really emphasizes the extreme cowardace when you think about it that way, because you know that they would never do that for fear of negative judgement, yet they have the NERVE to get upset that people tend to get upset when you say things that might offend them.  And most of you would probably back up the person being offended. 

I have never once in my life seen a conversation where someone stereotypes an Indian culture based on their experiences, and an Indian person overhears, and then other people tell the Indian to stop being offended.  It just doesn’t work that way.  Mostly because you actually see the party being injured.  You empathize with them because they are there in front of you.

I am not perfect at this by any stretch, but I try not to say anything on the internet that I would never say in person or in public.  It takes a lot of effort, and yes, I do censor myself sometimes because, whether you like it or not, when you are in a forum, you are joining a community, and the community has the right to expel you for things it finds anti-social or offensive. 


jooniFLORisploo

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2017, 09:05:30 AM »
I really want to +1 a few points in this thread, but my ipad and fat finger are fighting with each other about that.

But FreshStash's last (longer) post spoke well to my take.

I will add that I don't enjoy any aggression on the forum -people being "punched" for personal financial decisions, snarkiness and sarcasm as responses, condescension over what people named their babies, racism, presenting one's subjective take as objective truth, etc. I get that some people think they're just funny, or that they're the smartest, but egh.

Where I sense someone may be a great person, but is breaking rule #1, I try a few things:

1. Share my different experience, using the principles of nonviolent communication. "Oh, I've had a completely different experience! Mine has been..." Or, "Well, I'm a woman and I actually can't stand shopping..." Or, "There are actually more than two camps re: vaccinations. I'd love to see the third one acknowledged in these discussions, too."

2. A friendly PM. I've had some truly wonderful experiences in this. When I sense someone is probably an awesome person, while saying some stuff that makes me cringe, I sometimes say, "Hey there..." and it's well received, and often a lovely little friendship is started.

3. Where these go nowhere, or someone is being a jerk without seeming to give a crap that she's being a jerk, I hit the "report" button. As mentioned a few times in the thread, this draws a volunteer mod's attention to it. I found this ineffective the first two times I used it, but in the past year much more effective.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2017, 09:12:12 AM »
I haven't read the entire thread. But as an older person myself, and just as an internet user in general, I cannot see how any post could ever "hurt my feelings" as long as it wasn't personally directed at me. People say all kinds of stupid and uniformed stuff all the time on the internet and if you're going to decide to get your feelings hurt about it, well that's kind of your own problem. There seems to be an expectation that criticism/stereotype  of protected classes (not even sure age is considered a "protected class") is just so much worse, and so much more hurtful *per se* than any other kind of blanket criticism. But this is actually kind of arbitrary and strange, in my book.  Actually, if I were to find statements made by people I've never met and don't know hurtful, I would be more hurt if someone said something snide about "those who are stupid enough to let neighbors use their pools while they are away," than about old people since the former is more personally directed at me.

There's also a misconception, I think, that remarks can be hurtful and upsetting in themselves whereas it is always a choice whether or not to allow oneself to get upset over something. In fact, part of growing up is learning that we have power over our emotional responses and learning not to upset ourselves.

Another point: It's like the Internet gives us an eavesdropping superpower. We can listen in to a gazillion conversations that before the Internet we just couldn't hear. Is it really reasonable to get upset if any conversation has a remark that can possibilty be deemed sexist, racist or phomophobic? Are we going to thought police the world?

This said, if someone feels that someone is attacking a group of people or is showing a dangerous  ignorance in some way, then yes, there should be push back about that -- a rebuttal and a discussion. If the comment really seems to be intentionally offensive, then the mods should take care of the situation, deleting or editing the post as necessary and adding a warning. But again, I do not see the "personal feelings" of a forum member should enter into the equation unless there were personally attached and ideally not even then.

Another part of becoming an adult is learning that what we say and do affects other people. Maybe I'm fortunate enough to live in a very diverse and accepting city, but I don't feel it's a very high bar to request that people not say racist, sexist or homophobic things in a public place.
I think its refreshing to bring the attitudes into the open, a closet homophobe is still a homophobe. If I'm a racist in real life, but not online, am I a better person for hiding it?

If you want the attitudes to shift, I suggest even the racists, homophobes and sexists need to be heard and understood. Once you understand their positions, maybe then they'll change. Or we can keep them in their own forums separate from us and let them reinforce their beliefs among themselves.

The evolution of the pride festivals is amazing. In the early days there was backlash, now most places are accepting and some are embracing it (not everywhere, the world is diverse in its treatment). Getting it out in the open, talking, teaching and learning has been difficult, I think its been worth it. I grew up in an intolerant environment, I was a kid and I hope you don't judge, I wouldn't have changed except for the teachings of others.

Gin1984

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2017, 09:57:33 AM »
I haven't read the entire thread. But as an older person myself, and just as an internet user in general, I cannot see how any post could ever "hurt my feelings" as long as it wasn't personally directed at me. People say all kinds of stupid and uniformed stuff all the time on the internet and if you're going to decide to get your feelings hurt about it, well that's kind of your own problem. There seems to be an expectation that criticism/stereotype  of protected classes (not even sure age is considered a "protected class") is just so much worse, and so much more hurtful *per se* than any other kind of blanket criticism. But this is actually kind of arbitrary and strange, in my book.  Actually, if I were to find statements made by people I've never met and don't know hurtful, I would be more hurt if someone said something snide about "those who are stupid enough to let neighbors use their pools while they are away," than about old people since the former is more personally directed at me.

There's also a misconception, I think, that remarks can be hurtful and upsetting in themselves whereas it is always a choice whether or not to allow oneself to get upset over something. In fact, part of growing up is learning that we have power over our emotional responses and learning not to upset ourselves.

Another point: It's like the Internet gives us an eavesdropping superpower. We can listen in to a gazillion conversations that before the Internet we just couldn't hear. Is it really reasonable to get upset if any conversation has a remark that can possibilty be deemed sexist, racist or phomophobic? Are we going to thought police the world?

This said, if someone feels that someone is attacking a group of people or is showing a dangerous  ignorance in some way, then yes, there should be push back about that -- a rebuttal and a discussion. If the comment really seems to be intentionally offensive, then the mods should take care of the situation, deleting or editing the post as necessary and adding a warning. But again, I do not see the "personal feelings" of a forum member should enter into the equation unless there were personally attached and ideally not even then.

Another part of becoming an adult is learning that what we say and do affects other people. Maybe I'm fortunate enough to live in a very diverse and accepting city, but I don't feel it's a very high bar to request that people not say racist, sexist or homophobic things in a public place.
I think its refreshing to bring the attitudes into the open, a closet homophobe is still a homophobe. If I'm a racist in real life, but not online, am I a better person for hiding it?

If you want the attitudes to shift, I suggest even the racists, homophobes and sexists need to be heard and understood. Once you understand their positions, maybe then they'll change. Or we can keep them in their own forums separate from us and let them reinforce their beliefs among themselves.

The evolution of the pride festivals is amazing. In the early days there was backlash, now most places are accepting and some are embracing it (not everywhere, the world is diverse in its treatment). Getting it out in the open, talking, teaching and learning has been difficult, I think its been worth it. I grew up in an intolerant environment, I was a kid and I hope you don't judge, I wouldn't have changed except for the teachings of others.
ROFL, no.  The reason they are changing is because society (aka the rest of us) are standing up and saying your behavior is not acceptable and therefore they are not acting on the behavior because they don't want the backlash.  Accepting them does not work. 

Melisande

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2017, 10:14:46 AM »
I haven't read the entire thread. But as an older person myself, and just as an internet user in general, I cannot see how any post could ever "hurt my feelings" as long as it wasn't personally directed at me. People say all kinds of stupid and uniformed stuff all the time on the internet and if you're going to decide to get your feelings hurt about it, well that's kind of your own problem. There seems to be an expectation that criticism/stereotype  of protected classes (not even sure age is considered a "protected class") is just so much worse, and so much more hurtful *per se* than any other kind of blanket criticism. But this is actually kind of arbitrary and strange, in my book.  Actually, if I were to find statements made by people I've never met and don't know hurtful, I would be more hurt if someone said something snide about "those who are stupid enough to let neighbors use their pools while they are away," than about old people since the former is more personally directed at me.

There's also a misconception, I think, that remarks can be hurtful and upsetting in themselves whereas it is always a choice whether or not to allow oneself to get upset over something. In fact, part of growing up is learning that we have power over our emotional responses and learning not to upset ourselves.

Another point: It's like the Internet gives us an eavesdropping superpower. We can listen in to a gazillion conversations that before the Internet we just couldn't hear. Is it really reasonable to get upset if any conversation has a remark that can possibilty be deemed sexist, racist or phomophobic? Are we going to thought police the world?

This said, if someone feels that someone is attacking a group of people or is showing a dangerous  ignorance in some way, then yes, there should be push back about that -- a rebuttal and a discussion. If the comment really seems to be intentionally offensive, then the mods should take care of the situation, deleting or editing the post as necessary and adding a warning. But again, I do not see the "personal feelings" of a forum member should enter into the equation unless there were personally attached and ideally not even then.

Another part of becoming an adult is learning that what we say and do affects other people. Maybe I'm fortunate enough to live in a very diverse and accepting city, but I don't feel it's a very high bar to request that people not say racist, sexist or homophobic things in a public place.
I think its refreshing to bring the attitudes into the open, a closet homophobe is still a homophobe. If I'm a racist in real life, but not online, am I a better person for hiding it?

If you want the attitudes to shift, I suggest even the racists, homophobes and sexists need to be heard and understood. Once you understand their positions, maybe then they'll change. Or we can keep them in their own forums separate from us and let them reinforce their beliefs among themselves.

The evolution of the pride festivals is amazing. In the early days there was backlash, now most places are accepting and some are embracing it (not everywhere, the world is diverse in its treatment). Getting it out in the open, talking, teaching and learning has been difficult, I think its been worth it. I grew up in an intolerant environment, I was a kid and I hope you don't judge, I wouldn't have changed except for the teachings of others.

I don't know if this same arguement has been made about all straights being homophobic, but you do realize that there are many who say that all non-POCs are racist. No matter how you change your attitude. No matter what you say. You are racist/homophobic. Period. You are the product of a racist system. You will never be able to fully understand your privilege. This might sound crazy and extreme, but this is actually now standard understanding of our society in academia and other socially liberal milieux. I belong to a very liberal group and it's now ex-leader, who is certainly not a racist by any traditional definition of the term and who is Hispanic to boot, is being publically called a "White Supremacist" because basically he wasn't as PC as it was absolutely possible to be. Just hope we don't start getting like this here.

I'm sorry but it's hard for me not to read the thread in this context. Sometimes you just need to put the chisel down.

Also, I dislike the term "homophobe." It has a certain "if you aren't with us, your against us" vibe. It suggests that if anyone has a personal repugnance re: homosexuality, then they are anti-gay. I personally know someone who refuses to watch any gay scenes in movies and yet would absolutely risk their own career to make sure a gay person in his department wasn't discriminated against -- because it is the right thing to do. I know -- I saw it happen.

The kind of social policing I see going on in some forums (not really here fortunately) doesn't allow for this kind of complexity. It doesn't allow humans to be humans. It shuts down dialogue or at least limits its scope.

freshstash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2017, 11:02:26 AM »
This is not on you, Melisande, but I think the greatest tragedy of this ongoing national conversation is the way terms referring to discrimination have been allowed to be defined as personal insults by those who oppose change. "We are all products of a discriminatory system and thus need to consciously examine our assumptions if we don't want to UNconsciously perpetuate those ingrained, discriminatory values" is a perfectly sensible and true statement. It's not out there or radical. It's on the same order as "if you hate cooking and you want to learn to cook, you need to consciously examine the internal barriers between you and cooking." Did you grow up in a household that ate out of cans? Might have something to do with it. Institutionalized discrimination just involves a bigger household and unquestioned assumptions that hurt more people.

Unfortunately, we've successfully gotten "discrimination" recognized as a bad thing without that actually translating to knowledge of what systematic inequality entails. So if you say "hey, that remark was racist/sexist/etc," what people hear is "you are a racist," and then from there they progress to, "but racism is bad. I'm not a bad person!" Hence the digging in of heels. "I can't believe that person tried to call me evil when I just said my personal thoughts about the Mexican waiters I've had!" When, no, I don't necessarily think that the people I've personally called out for racist remarks before are intentionally cruel, evil people. I think they said some racist shit. That's certainly been the case for me when I've said racist shit by accident.

To be fair, while this misunderstanding of naming the problem initially evolved as a strawman to push back against progressive elements, understanding on both sides is by this time woefully muddled. This can lead to poorly executed callouts. On the other hand, everything I said in previous posts still applies: reacting as if having your behavior questioned is an assault against your identity as a good person places an unfair and illogical burden of means testing on the person or group that you hurt, and may actually end up making things harder for them.

Overall, I remain firm in my belief that this defensiveness and reductivism is what strips these discussions of nuance in the cases where that occurs. Since I'm pretty into personal responsibility, I do ultimately come down on expecting individuals who don't want to contribute to aggregate harm having a responsibility to swallow their initial indignation or confusion and accept criticism with an open mind.

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2017, 01:20:56 PM »
Damn freshstash, are you a cultural studies professor or something? What a fine post. Thanks.

Johnez

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2017, 01:51:39 PM »
Since the discussion has moved onto the national scale, I'd like to point out more of the problem is simple dishonesty rather than hurt feelings. First we have the people who simply deny making bigoted remarks, shifting to "it was a joke," "you're being PC," or reframing the comment altogether in a way that totally dismisses their actual intent. The post OP pointed out with regards to the gay fashion designers is a prime example. Poster remarks gay designers are attracted to prebubescent boys and that is the reason skinny women are on the pages, yet defends himself by pointing out he was saying real men like real women. There's a point where people know they are making bigoted statements and feel immune enough to shame and dismiss any criticism. I feel there is a small wedge in American discussion that is allowing more and more of this. It didn't start with Trump, but he is a prime example of how it works and how its rewarded.

AnswerIs42

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2017, 01:52:37 PM »
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

It's an improvement on "I'm going to report you to the mods, and make a whole new thread to publicly shame you", sure. It was pretty polite, but I did think the "If I found that a friend was nice to my face but [said the sort of things you did in your post], I would drop them." vibe was a bit of a downer when the whole thread was positive up to that point on the benefits of hanging out with older people. Not a terrible call-out, and he had every right to say that if he felt it, it just seemed a bit of a shame.

freshstash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2017, 02:43:57 PM »
I'm curious what everyone agreeing with I.P. thinks of the ageism comment that was brought up in this thread. The language of that post was very mild, "this seems ageist to me and honestly hurts my feelings" type stuff. No rudeness or swearing.

It's an improvement on "I'm going to report you to the mods, and make a whole new thread to publicly shame you", sure. It was pretty polite, but I did think the "If I found that a friend was nice to my face but [said the sort of things you did in your post], I would drop them." vibe was a bit of a downer when the whole thread was positive up to that point on the benefits of hanging out with older people. Not a terrible call-out, and he had every right to say that if he felt it, it just seemed a bit of a shame.

Genuinely interested in this - it sounds like you're arguing that it's more harmful to have that kind of critical feedback than not? If I were one of the people who'd been talking about how I cared about my older friends in that thread, I'd be a bit bummed, sure, but also try to keep it in mind to be a better friend to them in the future. In your opinion, was the positive vibe valuable enough to preserve the condescension without questioning it? Would a hypocritical silence have served better by not displaying the problem but keeping the vibe?

It's always a shame when people get hurt by things, sure. Double shame when the hurt isn't intended. But it's inevitably going to happen, and I admit I tend to think well of people and assume we're all hoping to do our best for others when that comes up.

golden1

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2017, 03:03:46 PM »
Quote
This is not on you, Melisande, but I think the greatest tragedy of this ongoing national conversation is the way terms referring to discrimination have been allowed to be defined as personal insults by those who oppose change. "We are all products of a discriminatory system and thus need to consciously examine our assumptions if we don't want to UNconsciously perpetuate those ingrained, discriminatory values" is a perfectly sensible and true statement. It's not out there or radical. It's on the same order as "if you hate cooking and you want to learn to cook, you need to consciously examine the internal barriers between you and cooking." Did you grow up in a household that ate out of cans? Might have something to do with it. Institutionalized discrimination just involves a bigger household and unquestioned assumptions that hurt more people.

Unfortunately, we've successfully gotten "discrimination" recognized as a bad thing without that actually translating to knowledge of what systematic inequality entails. So if you say "hey, that remark was racist/sexist/etc," what people hear is "you are a racist," and then from there they progress to, "but racism is bad. I'm not a bad person!" Hence the digging in of heels. "I can't believe that person tried to call me evil when I just said my personal thoughts about the Mexican waiters I've had!" When, no, I don't necessarily think that the people I've personally called out for racist remarks before are intentionally cruel, evil people. I think they said some racist shit. That's certainly been the case for me when I've said racist shit by accident.

Exactly!  I see this all the time.  Some says something racist.  Someone else says “That is racist!”.  Then the original person complains about being called a racist.  They immediately jump to personalizing the whole thing as part of their identity.

AnswerIs42

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2017, 03:22:03 PM »
Genuinely interested in this - it sounds like you're arguing that it's more harmful to have that kind of critical feedback than not? If I were one of the people who'd been talking about how I cared about my older friends in that thread, I'd be a bit bummed, sure, but also try to keep it in mind to be a better friend to them in the future. In your opinion, was the positive vibe valuable enough to preserve the condescension without questioning it? Would a hypocritical silence have served better by not displaying the problem but keeping the vibe?

It's a delicate balancing act, isn't it. Personally, I like to err on the side of assuming people meant no harm, and not taking myself too seriously. Perhaps that particular post could have reached a compromise by removing the last sentence - the point would still have been made, but with less antagonism. Still, it's not for me to deconstruct other people's posts.

EricL

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2017, 03:53:02 PM »
...everything I said in previous posts still applies: reacting as if having your behavior questioned is an assault against your identity as a good person places an unfair and illogical burden of means testing on the person or group that you hurt, and may actually end up making things harder for them.


Let me unpack this a bit.  Is that like saying people who "get called out" shouldn't feel insulted?  Being called a homophobe or a racist is insulting, even if it's just inferred or insinuated.  Isn't that like saying people from (insert demographic) shouldn't be insulted by some random comment in the first place?

I'm definitely against the board turning into some ideological "safe space" based on peoples' hurt feelings.  In nowhere is it written that other people are responsible for your feelings.  They can facilitate feelings, yes - and it's commendable when they facilitate good ones.  Sometimes they facilitate bad ones to tell necessary truths or because they're jerks (often both).  But ultimately YOUR feelings are YOUR responsibility.  If your feelings of self worth are tied to what random cock sucking shit stains* say on the internet, maybe your problems are a little deeper than social justice issues.

*Foul language is offensive to a lot of people and I'm not actually fond of it in public discourse.  Yet the mods tolerate, and in some threads, even encourage it.  That will be MY litmus test for when the forums have gone down the tubes: when the perpetually offended ban that.
Gentleman of Leisure

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2017, 03:59:38 PM »
Genuinely interested in this - it sounds like you're arguing that it's more harmful to have that kind of critical feedback than not? If I were one of the people who'd been talking about how I cared about my older friends in that thread, I'd be a bit bummed, sure, but also try to keep it in mind to be a better friend to them in the future. In your opinion, was the positive vibe valuable enough to preserve the condescension without questioning it? Would a hypocritical silence have served better by not displaying the problem but keeping the vibe?

It's a delicate balancing act, isn't it. Personally, I like to err on the side of assuming people meant no harm, and not taking myself too seriously. Perhaps that particular post could have reached a compromise by removing the last sentence - the point would still have been made, but with less antagonism. Still, it's not for me to deconstruct other people's posts.

Huh, and yet you assumed I started a thread to publicly shame people, despite my explicitly stated purpose of starting a discussion about the broader issue.

ketchup

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2017, 04:01:32 PM »
I don't call people out on things that may be viewed as offensive, as I feel that it's not my place beyond hitting the "report to moderator" button.  I won't pull over a drunk driver and yell at him for being a derp, but I'll call the cops on one.
*Foul language is offensive to a lot of people and I'm not actually fond of it in public discourse.  Yet the mods tolerate, and in some threads, even encourage it.  That will be MY litmus test for when the forums have gone down the tubes: when the perpetually offended ban that.
MMM himself is very clearly on Team Swearing Is Fun And Effective, so that would feel 100% against the fucking ethos of the blog to implement.

Moonwaves

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2017, 04:26:39 PM »
...everything I said in previous posts still applies: reacting as if having your behavior questioned is an assault against your identity as a good person places an unfair and illogical burden of means testing on the person or group that you hurt, and may actually end up making things harder for them.


Let me unpack this a bit.  Is that like saying people who "get called out" shouldn't feel insulted?  Being called a homophobe or a racist is insulting, even if it's just inferred or insinuated.  Isn't that like saying people from (insert demographic) shouldn't be insulted by some random comment in the first place?

I'm definitely against the board turning into some ideological "safe space" based on peoples' hurt feelings.  In nowhere is it written that other people are responsible for your feelings.  They can facilitate feelings, yes - and it's commendable when they facilitate good ones.  Sometimes they facilitate bad ones to tell necessary truths or because they're jerks (often both).  But ultimately YOUR feelings are YOUR responsibility.  If your feelings of self worth are tied to what random cock sucking shit stains* say on the internet, maybe your problems are a little deeper than social justice issues.

*Foul language is offensive to a lot of people and I'm not actually fond of it in public discourse.  Yet the mods tolerate, and in some threads, even encourage it.  That will be MY litmus test for when the forums have gone down the tubes: when the perpetually offended ban that.
But saying that someone has said something that is homophobic or racist does not equal calling that person a homophobe or racist. That's the point (I think).

freshstash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2017, 05:15:49 PM »
Moonwaves is correct.

Re: swearing, I fucking love to swear, and swearing is a great example of how all offense isn't equal. Making "gay people are pedophiles" a casual unchallenged talking point in public discourse leads directly to gay people being discriminated against, closed out of certain spaces, and even legislated against. "Gay people are pedophiles" becoming a fine thing to throw around on this forum specifically might lead to gay mustachians having really bad experiences with the Mini Money Mustache board. This is measurable harm, the yardstick I generally use to judge this stuff.

Conversely, someone who's offended that I said bullshit hasn't had any measurable harm done to them aside from the rufflement. They're just mad at me. That's fine.

dividendman

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2017, 05:37:02 PM »
I wasn't offended in the "our new Indian overlords" thread in spite of being of Indian descent and even posted there a few times to refute the claims of the OP. I don't know if contributing to that thread means I'm implicitly tolerating their racism or not, I just felt I had pertinent information to share that may impact their views.

I'm more interested in how so many people are offended by random internet strangers.

There are a lot of posters on this forum that I read with more weight than others (like MDM, Sol, etc.) in that I've gained knowledge or followed up on some data or a new way of looking at a topic based on their previous posts so I generally try to digest their posts more thoroughly. If they said something racist or sexist etc. I would probably be surprised, but not offended.

Why? Because people need to have some status with me before they can actually impact me emotionally. Not to insult everyone here :), but people on this forum just don't hold that personal status with me, and so can't offend me regardless of what they post.