Author Topic: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...  (Read 9867 times)

MasterStache

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2017, 10:55:35 AM »
Source (several years ago):  http://ava.publicreligion.org/

^LMAO

I blocked someone once who wouldn't stop posting about what they ate. I suppose I am intolerant of food. I truly hope that isn't the source of your original claim. Because that is pretty freaking bad. Pretty funny though. I'll give you that. 

Kaspian

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2017, 10:57:14 AM »
Source (several years ago):  http://ava.publicreligion.org/

Well, not sure what prompted them to unfollow, but in my case, the Trump supporters on my wall openly call for Hillary being raped or killed, scream in ALL CAPS that Muslims need to all be in jail, and their friends have attacked me and threatened my personal safety. Including people who have gone out of their way to tell me how ugly I am and how my husband hates me and can't stand having sex with me. (One PMed me to tell me they can figure out where I live from my online presence and implying that it would be easy to come to my house and do me harm.)

So, you know, there's another side to this that your nice little graph isn't really taking into account.

Not my "nice little graph".  "Nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to research to help journalists, opinion leaders, scholars, clergy, and the general public better understand debates."

I saved it years ago doing my own serious research because I couldn't figure out why exactly my northern friends were losing their shit all the time (!!) over politics even though the POTUS was the one they wanted.  Meanwhile, most of the people in the south rarely did the angry rant thing.  Came to the realization it was probably the snow--they get shut-in, watch too much media, go a little crazy, so lash out at the world.  Never seems so bad during the summer months.
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MandalayVA

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2017, 11:03:03 AM »
You know, you guys, you could just ... not argue.  Back in the day I ran a website that the right loved to go after, but they stopped when they realized my response would be something along the line of "okay" or "you're entitled to your beliefs."  They're so used to those on the left constantly arguing with them that it throws them off when someone on the left doesn't freak out over their opinions.  YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THEIR MINDS THOUGH ARGUING.  EVER.  The only thing that ever changes their minds is a negative personal experience.  Period.  But no, it's so much FUN proving your perceived superiority, right?  Right! 
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JLee

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2017, 11:09:22 AM »
You know, you guys, you could just ... not argue.  Back in the day I ran a website that the right loved to go after, but they stopped when they realized my response would be something along the line of "okay" or "you're entitled to your beliefs."  They're so used to those on the left constantly arguing with them that it throws them off when someone on the left doesn't freak out over their opinions.  YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THEIR MINDS THOUGH ARGUING.  EVER.  The only thing that ever changes their minds is a negative personal experience.  Period.  But no, it's so much FUN proving your perceived superiority, right?  Right!

That's a pervasive attitude that extends to politicians as well.  To some people, there is a difference between a conversation and an argument.

Eric

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2017, 12:06:14 PM »
I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.

The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.


At least you admit that Trump is a problem.  Admitting it is always the first step.
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JLee

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2017, 12:33:33 PM »
I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.

The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.


At least you admit that Trump is a problem.  Admitting it is always the first step.

The irony of the bolded phrase is quite incredible.

Kaspian

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2017, 01:01:19 PM »
The irony of the bolded phrase is quite incredible.

That's a good list (I mean that, sincerely) except that where the author thinks the US military was in the wrong he uses descriptors like "massacre", "seize", "attack", and "occupy" and where he believes they (might have been) in the right he uses nothing positive at all.  :/

I wouldn't want to be accused of ad hominem again, but possibly the longest SJW biography I have ever seen:  "Native American and World Indigenous Peoples Studies, Global ethnic relations and nationalism, U.S. racial relations, Crosscultural alliances, Racist/white supremacist and anti-racist movements, Environmental Justice and climate justice, Social movements, Maps and historical cartography, Geopolitics and globalization, Military interventions and military bases network."

^^ (Holy shitballs.)  Nope, no preconceived notions/agendas coming out of there.
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JLee

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2017, 01:05:11 PM »
The irony of the bolded phrase is quite incredible.

That's a good list (I mean that, sincerely) except that where the author thinks the US military was in the wrong he uses descriptors like "massacre", "seize", "attack", and "occupy" and where he believes they (might have been) in the right he uses nothing positive at all.  :/

I wouldn't want to be accused of ad hominem again, but possibly the longest SJW biography I have ever seen:  "Native American and World Indigenous Peoples Studies, Global ethnic relations and nationalism, U.S. racial relations, Crosscultural alliances, Racist/white supremacist and anti-racist movements, Environmental Justice and climate justice, Social movements, Maps and historical cartography, Geopolitics and globalization, Military interventions and military bases network."

^^ (Holy shitballs.)  Nope, no preconceived notions/agendas coming out of there.

I'm using that strictly for a list of dates/incidents of foreign intervention.  The author's opinion doesn't change that. :)

RosieTR

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #58 on: January 26, 2017, 01:46:44 PM »
Thanks for that, LennStar. My German friends IRL are freaking out, too. They have been very concerned, and also really nice (offering essentially asylum if it comes to that!). One of them lived here in the US for many years during graduate school, and she was constantly a little on edge at all the flags. I hadn't known how not-OK flag waving is in Germany, except of course for football games. I hope you and your fellow citizens can continue Merkel's leadership, despite the headwinds of far-right takeovers and influence from Russia.

I find it interesting and sobering to hear perspectives from other countries, and from people here who are immigrants. I lived in Arizona during the anti-immigration upswing there, and even the Canadians I knew at work were worried about that. I can't even imagine what they think right now...though if I were Canadian I would probably think about leaving the US in case things get really bad.

Finally, I hope it gives you hope to know that there is an active and rising resistance. We are very conscious of how authoritarianism can turn out, and although many of these efforts will fail individually, my hope is that the constant pressure will prevent a complete descent into fascism. But yeah, it is worrisome. Not least of which due to the Trump supporters ready and willing to accept "alternative facts" because everything will be "tremendous" if they do.

LennStar

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2017, 03:11:43 PM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.


Quote
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

Quote
Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.

IN FACT "they" did not do this.
If you compare crime rate of asylum seekers with germans, then they are roughly the same.
BUT just comparing is not enough.
If you also consider factors like age and sex (most crimes are done by young men, and that -surprise! - is also true for muslims) then their crime rate is lower.
THEN you also have to take out crimes a German cannot even do - violating movement restrictions, working without permit etc.

In the end the asylum seekers crime rate is lower then that of average German.
If you remember that we talk here about often traumatised people, often far from a family that is still in danger, pressed into a small room with several unknown people, that is really remarkable.

There were more several hundred serious attacks (like arsen) against asylum seekers (the building they were living in) though.

My friend always say how friendly and helpful to each other "his" asylum seekers are (he is working in one of the homes).
I guess muslims have the undeniable positive that they dont drink. Alcohol often makes a stressed situation dangerous.

-----

oh, by the way: When talking about rape please do not forget the most dangerous persons for a child are the family and friends. The uncle is way more likely (like multiples) to rape the girl then any stranger, whatever the religion of that stranger might be.
That is also the reason why the real amount of rapes differs so much from report to report. The high number of unreported cases because of those close connections.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 03:19:30 PM by LennStar »

rosaz

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2017, 09:25:47 PM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion.   Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals. 

I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly.  That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies.

Yup. I spent how many years listening to Sarah Palin et al. tell me I wasn't a 'real American' because... I take public transportation to work and support gay marriage? Or hearing about how we liberals don't really love our country simply because we tend to be more skeptical of using military force. Is that not contempt, condescension, derision?

You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him.  Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.

And what about all the Americans Trump has heaped scorn on? I keep hearing on the one hand that Trump was elected because people felt condescended to and insulted, and on the other that liberals need to take this as a lesson, to eat humble pie and show more empathy. But you get that liberals are people too, right? That when you elect not just a normal Republican but someone who has insulted myself and the people I love, that then asking for me to 'reach out' and 'be understanding' is asking for almost superhuman willpower?

LalsConstant

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2017, 06:27:52 AM »
And what about all the Americans Trump has heaped scorn on? I keep hearing on the one hand that Trump was elected because people felt condescended to and insulted, and on the other that liberals need to take this as a lesson, to eat humble pie and show more empathy. But you get that liberals are people too, right? That when you elect not just a normal Republican but someone who has insulted myself and the people I love, that then asking for me to 'reach out' and 'be understanding' is asking for almost superhuman willpower?

The difference is Trump was the underdog populist candidate.  Being acerbic and ridiculous works when you position yourself as the voice of the frustrated and unrepresented.  Hillary was campaigning like she was the underdog when she wasn't.

When the dominant candidate apes the political tactics of the underdog, they undermine themselves.  Hillary fashioned herself as a champion of groups which are already powerful, Trump was savvy enough to understand how to motivate those who are not happy with the status quo.  When Hillary made such a broad condescending statement it harmed her standing a great deal.  Trump saying outrageous things doesn't hurt him because he is a demagogue.

It's not a question of whether the other side does it too, it's a question of grasping the mindset of the electorate.  When the establishment candidate lowers herself to the level of the populist candidate to a sufficient degree, it undermines her greatest assets of better public presence and greater perceived stability.

Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite.  All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.

Kaspian

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2017, 08:24:11 AM »
Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite.  All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.

I agree--growing up the Democrats seemed to be the party representing the hard-working blue collar citizens.  At what point they decided to shift their entire platform focus to be the party of academic social engineers, climate, and identity politics, I have no idea?  Most people I know have no problem whatsoever with the last two ideas but they'd rather talk about utility bills and jobs in their own communities.  Even farming or urban development would be subjects which would reach more people personally.  You know when you have an acquaintance who only ever wants to talk about one or two things, subjects which have no bearing whatsoever on most, and you get bored to death?  The guy who wants to tell you the entire background of every single "Star Wars" character because he read the books?  That.  Why they decided to continually flog dead horses instead of reviving their giant wave of blue collar supporters, I don't know.  (Sort of alienated and treated that group with disdain instead.  ...Which is crazy.) 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 08:27:42 AM by Kaspian »
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LalsConstant

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2017, 08:57:21 AM »
Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite.  All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.

I agree--growing up the Democrats seemed to be the party representing the hard-working blue collar citizens.  At what point they decided to shift their entire platform focus to be the party of academic social engineers, climate, and identity politics, I have no idea?  Most people I know have no problem whatsoever with the last two ideas but they'd rather talk about utility bills and jobs in their own communities.  Even farming or urban development would be subjects which would reach more people personally.  You know when you have an acquaintance who only ever wants to talk about one or two things, subjects which have no bearing whatsoever on most, and you get bored to death?  The guy who wants to tell you the entire background of every single "Star Wars" character because he read the books?  That.  Why they decided to continually flog dead horses instead of reviving their giant wave of blue collar supporters, I don't know.  (Sort of alienated and treated that group with disdain instead.  ...Which is crazy.)

Well, it wouldn't be the first time the Democrats and Republicans have switched constituencies.  It is odd how that happens, but not unprecedented.

For what anecdotes are worth, I grew up in a solid blue Yellow Dog Democrat family and Republicans were considered the black sheep.  And for what it's worth, I come from what polite society calls white trash.  My parents are the first generation in their respective families to be college graduates.

I have shaken hands with Charlie Stenholm on multiple occassions as a youngster.  That's how Democrat we were.

My grandmother to this day believes that Republicans created cancer, worship Satan, and are responsible for the spread of homosexuality and just blames them for the weather and everything else.  That's how Democrat this family was.

For a long time I considered myself a Democrat, and there are some figures in that party I still think are good people and there are some I think are good politicians.  For instance I think Barack Obama is an all right fellow, but his political agenda is not something I would ever endorse. To mention him again, I think Charlie Stenholm was a pretty good legislator overall despite a few things he voted on I didn't completely agree with.  I don't shit on them because of their label, but I definitely do not associate myself with that party either.

Nor am I a Republican.  The Republicans often have some ideas I agree with, but as a party I think they're part of the problem.

In some ways I'm glad they're more in charge locally than the Democrats, but I also am not truly happy with the way they do things and I think there's much better ways.

However, as I grew up, I began to notice that my parents felt more and more frustrated with the Democrats.  My father really was excited about Bill Clinton, until he began to do questionable things and ultimately my father said to me Clinton should have been impeached or at least resigned.

My parents are/were very politically moderate.  In their view, the best president ever in their lifetime was Kennedy.  They both believed that the amount and kind of government we had circa 1965 or so was perfect.

My Democrat grandparents were poor sharecroppers, who honestly believed themselves to be far better off than so many, they believed the welfare state was expanding too much when people in their economic strata became eligible for foodstamps and other services.

Overall both generations believed in welfare, but only for the truly helpless, and thought basically if you weren't an invalid you needed to pull your weight as best you could, and the government's role for most people was to stay out of the way and operate as inexpensively as possible.  Basically in their worldview, the truly despondent and helpless, which is a small group of people to them, must live off the largesse of the majority.  The more the Democrats strayed from this, the less loyal they were, but most of my grandparents died before SJW were a thing.

The Democrats first began to lose my parents on wedge issues like second amendment rights and abortion, and eventually, it has got to the point my mother now votes for Republicans, and my siblings and I are all fiercely independent.  According to my mother, the modern Democrats are often insane and the ones that aren't seem to genuinely mean well but don't think about what they're doing.

I haven't seen an old school Southern-style Democrat in many a year.  I think Charlie Stenholm was the last one.

So whatever they're doing, it's shifting their base considerably.

bacchi

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2017, 09:17:59 AM »
Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite.  All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.

I agree--growing up the Democrats seemed to be the party representing the hard-working blue collar citizens.  At what point they decided to shift their entire platform focus to be the party of academic social engineers, climate, and identity politics, I have no idea?  Most people I know have no problem whatsoever with the last two ideas but they'd rather talk about utility bills and jobs in their own communities.  Even farming or urban development would be subjects which would reach more people personally.  You know when you have an acquaintance who only ever wants to talk about one or two things, subjects which have no bearing whatsoever on most, and you get bored to death?  The guy who wants to tell you the entire background of every single "Star Wars" character because he read the books?  That.  Why they decided to continually flog dead horses instead of reviving their giant wave of blue collar supporters, I don't know.  (Sort of alienated and treated that group with disdain instead.  ...Which is crazy.)

Eh, the death of the Democratic party is greatly exaggerated. One could say the same about the GOP. When did they get taken over by Tea Partiers worried about gay people? Now that that one is lost, they're moving on to...porn?!? Or maybe Mexicans -- who can tell.

Trump is an outlier. Did Rubio or Jeb or Cruz care about the pissed off union people in Michigan? Fuck no. They would've continued the same ol' appeal to Big Business that's been done by Bush and Bush. Trump appealed to people who felt like outliers being left behind and that's why he won the nomination.

The question is whether Trump can change the entire GOP party. It usually aligns with the President but there is substantial resistance, mostly because Trump is by himself -- even the Freedom Caucus was like "WTF?" on some of his ideas.

Kaspian

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2017, 10:19:15 AM »
bacchi  --> Agree with that, as well!  And I know this was a very difficult vote for some of my friends.  The hostile polarization created by extremists has left many (sane) people feeling stranded.  Indeed, they're tuning out completely and it's hard to blame them.  When it comes down to building a wall or protests because someone won't make a gay wedding cake many are thinking--"Seriously--that's what you got?!!  What the FUCK is going on out there?"  The media likes to frenzy fringe issues but the politicians are the ones who keep feeding them.
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dandypandys

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2017, 02:16:36 PM »
RESIST!

Kris

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2017, 03:27:13 PM »
Source (several years ago):  http://ava.publicreligion.org/

Well, not sure what prompted them to unfollow, but in my case, the Trump supporters on my wall openly call for Hillary being raped or killed, scream in ALL CAPS that Muslims need to all be in jail, and their friends have attacked me and threatened my personal safety. Including people who have gone out of their way to tell me how ugly I am and how my husband hates me and can't stand having sex with me. (One PMed me to tell me they can figure out where I live from my online presence and implying that it would be easy to come to my house and do me harm.)

So, you know, there's another side to this that your nice little graph isn't really taking into account.

Not my "nice little graph".  "Nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to research to help journalists, opinion leaders, scholars, clergy, and the general public better understand debates."

I saved it years ago doing my own serious research because I couldn't figure out why exactly my northern friends were losing their shit all the time (!!) over politics even though the POTUS was the one they wanted.  Meanwhile, most of the people in the south rarely did the angry rant thing.  Came to the realization it was probably the snow--they get shut-in, watch too much media, go a little crazy, so lash out at the world.  Never seems so bad during the summer months.

Way to completely ignore every single thing I said in that post.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Johnez

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2017, 03:48:41 PM »
I remember when Obama was elected. He was being equated to the Anti-Christ, Hitler, and a communist.

This time, the opposing crowd says Trump is a racist, he is anti-science, and is gonna destroy the environment.

The difference is.....Trump has ran on and is hellbent on convincing all his supporters and detractors of these very things. Obama never ran on taking your guns or wealth redistribution or being Antichrist. It is absolutely nuts. Trump has, or will have every branch of govt on his side. The difference is stark. We're in for a ride. Obama's years will probably be looked at as some of the best after Trump is out. Just like Clinton's years were looked back on wistfully by many after Bush.  We'll see.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2017, 07:50:24 AM »

Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.

Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
This is the problem with both sides, the us vs. them mentality. They're people too (families are divided on this), they also deserve compassion. They might be jerks to you that mocked you but the President needs to represent their interests as well. The democratic bent of mocking them is a big part of electing Trump, I don't think Trump won the election, the Democrats handed it to him.

Now its time to move on and figure out where to go from here. The first party to figure out how to reach across to the other side will win the next election. Right now the Democrats are setting up to hand Trump another win. If you can't feel compassion, you will be handing Trump his second term. I don't think you want that, you need to harness the power of grassroots to get what you want. It's not just you of course, I have the same problem with my family mocking my lifestyle. I agree with your anger, I'm hoping you harness it to improve the political system on both sides.

Overall I think having Republicans and Democrats in the same family is great, its when it turns into name-calling and fighting that the beauty of public discourse fails the world.

JLee

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2017, 08:04:44 AM »

Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.

Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
This is the problem with both sides, the us vs. them mentality. They're people too (families are divided on this), they also deserve compassion. They might be jerks to you that mocked you but the President needs to represent their interests as well. The democratic bent of mocking them is a big part of electing Trump, I don't think Trump won the election, the Democrats handed it to him.

Now its time to move on and figure out where to go from here. The first party to figure out how to reach across to the other side will win the next election. Right now the Democrats are setting up to hand Trump another win. If you can't feel compassion, you will be handing Trump his second term. I don't think you want that, you need to harness the power of grassroots to get what you want. It's not just you of course, I have the same problem with my family mocking my lifestyle. I agree with your anger, I'm hoping you harness it to improve the political system on both sides.

Overall I think having Republicans and Democrats in the same family is great, its when it turns into name-calling and fighting that the beauty of public discourse fails the world.

I agree.  I do have to say, though, that I feel this is far more common coming from the right than the left. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence but I unfollowed a family member on Facebook because my feed was polluted with hatred.  My liberal friends are concerned for the future of this country, but what I'm seeing from the conservative side is basically rants, insults, and fallacies. A conversation is impossible.

Gin1984

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2017, 08:30:49 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.

The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.

Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is.  They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions.  (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
Citation please.

Kris

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2017, 08:34:46 AM »

Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.

Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
This is the problem with both sides, the us vs. them mentality. They're people too (families are divided on this), they also deserve compassion. They might be jerks to you that mocked you but the President needs to represent their interests as well. The democratic bent of mocking them is a big part of electing Trump, I don't think Trump won the election, the Democrats handed it to him.

Now its time to move on and figure out where to go from here. The first party to figure out how to reach across to the other side will win the next election. Right now the Democrats are setting up to hand Trump another win. If you can't feel compassion, you will be handing Trump his second term. I don't think you want that, you need to harness the power of grassroots to get what you want. It's not just you of course, I have the same problem with my family mocking my lifestyle. I agree with your anger, I'm hoping you harness it to improve the political system on both sides.

Overall I think having Republicans and Democrats in the same family is great, its when it turns into name-calling and fighting that the beauty of public discourse fails the world.

I agree.  I do have to say, though, that I feel this is far more common coming from the right than the left. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence but I unfollowed a family member on Facebook because my feed was polluted with hatred.  My liberal friends are concerned for the future of this country, but what I'm seeing from the conservative side is basically rants, insults, and fallacies. A conversation is impossible.

I must agree. All the political posts I see from the right on my social media feed -- like literally, every single thing I see in the course of a day -- is essentially mockery and hatred directed towards liberals.

All of it.

Whenever I try to get into a discussion with one of the conservative people on my feed or a friend's feed, I am IMMEDIATELY met with insults and attacks. Almost 100% of the time. Even when I try to deescalate and say, "I have been nothing but respectful to you, can we please try to have a discussion about the issues," every subsequent comment is peppered with "whiny libtard," etc.

It's exhausting. Seriously. It's enough to make one think actual dialogue is impossible.

Thankfully, I have made some progress with the Republicans in my life who didn't support Trump. But the Trump supporters seem to be unreachable.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Gin1984

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2017, 08:37:29 AM »
Source (several years ago):  http://ava.publicreligion.org/
That actually is not a source that defends your position.  If I unfriend someone who tells me that I should be raped because I did not vote for the anti-choice candidate, am I somehow not open to new/conflicting ideas (and yes this did happen)?  No, I am removing someone dangerous from my life.  Same with someone who keeps attacking you, you keep yourself safe.  So again, please post a citation that actually says what you are saying.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 08:43:30 AM by Gin1984 »

Chris22

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2017, 09:41:23 AM »
Obama never ran on taking your guns

Point of order, he always said "I'm not going to take your rifle, shotgun, or handgun".  Considering the so-called "Assault rifle" is one of the most popular firearms and is widely owned, telling people "I'm not going to take your guns but I want to ban assault rifles" is like saying "If you like your car you can keep your car but I'm going to ban Ford F-150s, Dodge Rams, and Chevy Silverados."

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did-obama-flip-flop-on-gun-control/

Quote from: Obama, Oct. 16, 2012
: So my belief is that, a., we have to enforce the laws we’ve already got, make sure that we’re keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, those who are mentally ill. We’ve done a much better job in terms of background checks, but we’ve got more to do when it comes to enforcement.

But I also share your belief that weapons that were designed for soldiers in war theaters don’t belong on our streets. And so what I’m trying to do is to get a broader conversation about how do we reduce the violence generally. Part of it is seeing if we can get an assault weapons ban reintroduced, but part of it is also looking at other sources of the violence — because, frankly, in my hometown of Chicago there’s an awful lot of violence, and they’re not using AK-47s, they’re using cheap handguns.
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Prairie Stash

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2017, 10:37:29 AM »

I must agree. All the political posts I see from the right on my social media feed -- like literally, every single thing I see in the course of a day -- is essentially mockery and hatred directed towards liberals.

All of it.

Whenever I try to get into a discussion with one of the conservative people on my feed or a friend's feed, I am IMMEDIATELY met with insults and attacks. Almost 100% of the time. Even when I try to deescalate and say, "I have been nothing but respectful to you, can we please try to have a discussion about the issues," every subsequent comment is peppered with "whiny libtard," etc.

It's exhausting. Seriously. It's enough to make one think actual dialogue is impossible.

Thankfully, I have made some progress with the Republicans in my life who didn't support Trump. But the Trump supporters seem to be unreachable.
I'm an outsider looking in, thankfully insulated from most of it.

The numbers from the election indicate that the presidential race isn't won by converting everyone, it's won by converting about 5% of the population. Trump won by a few million votes in certain states, ignore the total popular vote, its not important since you don't need to win the most votes, just the most in certain states. Take Wisconsin as an example. it was won by 23,000 votes out of 2,800.000, less than 1%. All that needs to happen is 25,000 friends in Wisconsin need to change their minds, that's the part to remember, the margins are tiny.

Keep having polite conversations, that's the path to change. The takeaway from this election is the angrier people got at each other the more people turned to Trump. Trump will have a second term unless the vitriol is turned down fast. Every person who says "Fascist, dictator, liar" is really helping him out. His path to success was paved by those insults, although it felt fun to say those insults it was the democratic party who danced to his tune. He outsmarted the Dem's now he's the President (he got the prize, he might not be the smartest guy on earth but he knew how to pick a better team to win with).

Hopefully Americans are wiser for it in the next election, I hope they learn their lesson and take democracy seriously next time. The election is over, get ready for the next one or its going to have the same result.

Obama won by bringing people together, Trump won by dividing.

RosieTR

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2017, 12:16:35 PM »
This thread has, like others, devolved into partisan fighting among Americans. I would like to bring it back to the original poster's subject, that the world is watching in horror (Putin and Erdogan, and maybe a couple others excepted). I saw this the other day and wanted to send it out to our international friends, because the blogger here expressed the sentiment better than I probably could have:

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/01/28/dear-world-from-america/

Quote
Dear World,

We felt we needed to say something while saying something is still allowed.

We know many of you have lived under malevolent, unhinged Dictators before, but this is new for us. For its history our nation has been led by men who, despite their varying flaws and deficiencies, some of which were quite disturbing—were by and large, normal human beings. Whatever darkness in them, they had at the very least, a baseline of humanity and decency that more often than not insured rational behavior.

This man is not normal.

Drifterrider

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2017, 08:58:13 PM »
I hated Obama and what he did to the military. When he gave an order I disagreed with I saluted and moved out to implement them because he was the CDR and Chief.

So, tell us; what did he do to the military?

zoltani

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2017, 01:31:32 PM »
As those of you in Europe look to the US in horror the same thing is happening right under your noses.

I sincerely doubt that all of this is just happening without serious planning and effort. There are forces at work greater than you or I could imagine.
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Cassie

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2017, 04:43:57 PM »
Some of the leaders or people running in Europe are scary also.

SpeedReader

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2017, 07:02:21 PM »
...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.

You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him.  Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.

Yep!  I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out.  The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash.  I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen.  It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way.  Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos.  Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.

Shouldn't those "general things and frameworks we can agree on" include acceptance of science and facts?  This era of "alternative facts" and the idea that belief/opinion outweighs objective reality is the most disturbing thing I've ever encountered. 

ncornilsen

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2017, 09:20:28 PM »
...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.

You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him.  Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.

Yep!  I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out.  The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash.  I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen.  It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way.  Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos.  Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.

Shouldn't those "general things and frameworks we can agree on" include acceptance of science and facts?  This era of "alternative facts" and the idea that belief/opinion outweighs objective reality is the most disturbing thing I've ever encountered.

Yes, acceptance of fact and science is very important as a corner stone for society and discourse.

I don't see that the current 'fake news' and 'alt facts' thing is about a direct rejection of facts, science, etc. It's about that some conservatives don't trust mainstream news, for real and fabricated betrays of objectivity. Trump capitalized on that, talk radio has been beating the drum for years. So into that vacuum is the fake news guys.

Please keep in mind also, liberals have blind spots to science and facts as well. Economics, the whole GMO thing, Vaccines (though that line of crazy seems to have been adopted by some of the right wingers recently.)

surfhb

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2017, 11:58:09 PM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.


You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?  What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case.  I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.

I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.

The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.

Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.

I spent three years in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. For a complete year I lived with the Iraqi military in a remote area with 10 other Soldiers far away from any U.S. base. Before going on this mission we trained for four months in a special program that included daily Arabic language and culture classes.

We each had our own Iraqi interpreter, we taught them how to shoot, fight, and lived 24 hours a day with them for a year. We lost one to a suicide bomber. We armed them to keep them alive at a time when they were being target and killed while coming or going from leave. Ultimately we were able to get citizenship for two of them. One is a college professor and the other works translating documents for the U.S. government.

Another year I was part of a reconstruction team that managed the building of infrastructure including schools, clinics, and water supplies.

I have pulled injured Iraqis out of burning cars. I've kept them alive when wounded, I even have a crooked nose from when I was working on a wounded terrorist who regained consciousness and broke my nose while I was keeping him alive. I had to choke him unconscious and then went back to stopping his bleeding.

The bottom line is there are good and bad Muslims but to place 1.5 million individuals with a totally different cultural value system into a socialist country where women are equal to men and expect anything less than chaos is ignorant indeed.

The bottom line is I understand Arab and Muslim culture I even speak a little bit of modern standard Arabic.

I think you are forgetting that it's because your Commander In Chief sent you to Iraq/Afghanistan is the sole reason why those millions of refugees are fleeing to Europe.



LennStar

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2017, 05:21:34 AM »
Quote
I think you are forgetting that it's because your Commander In Chief sent you to Iraq/Afghanistan is the sole reason why those millions of refugees are fleeing to Europe.
Not quite correct.
Current refugees are mainly from Syria.
And they started to come in "waves" after the money of the UN run out, nobody wanted to pay the 600 million €, and the camps in and around Syria could no longer provide even anything to eat.
2-3 month later there was a sudden, totally surprising rise in refugess from there. Why I wonder...

surfhb

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2017, 07:52:52 AM »
Quote
I think you are forgetting that it's because your Commander In Chief sent you to Iraq/Afghanistan is the sole reason why those millions of refugees are fleeing to Europe.
Not quite correct.
Current refugees are mainly from Syria.
And they started to come in "waves" after the money of the UN run out, nobody wanted to pay the 600 million €, and the camps in and around Syria could no longer provide even anything to eat.
2-3 month later there was a sudden, totally surprising rise in refugess from there. Why I wonder...

I'm talking about the needless US invasion of the Middle East and the resulting power vacuum. 

Coming up on 20 years ago now....

RangerOne

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2017, 02:50:17 PM »
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

Neither are Jews.  It didn't stop people exactly like you from killing millions of them in the name of racial purity.
[/quote]

The Jews actually are technically a race, in as much as we care to scientifically define racial groups. They have a distinguishable racial and genetic lineage that can easily be traced back thousands of years.

That of course is entirely not possible with Muslims and Christians which are religions of conversion which seek to envelope everyone.

Jews inherit their religion for the most part with most conversions only occurring due to outsiders marrying into a Jewish family.  Jews historically traced Jewish heritage through the mothers bloodline to guarantee the children are certain to have at least 50% Jewish heritage. The the religion in effect spawn a race.

The use of the word racism to apply to people who are say anti Muslim I think gets the point across that the person is probably being closed minded or assigning too many assumption to a group based on one shared attribute. People who bitch about the use either are just being nit picky, which is fine, or triggered by the use of the term racist.... I think in general we can use racism as a lazy synonym for bigotry of any sort.

I don't in particular like arguing too much about words like this as it is simply usually a means to distract from the core conversation. Each group and conversation needs to quickly agree on terminology and definitions to have a clear discussion. The only time language matters is in legal writing where the agreed definitions have to be as clear as possible. I think smaller groups can take liberties with definitions to adjust for common interpretations of meanings.

RangerOne

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2017, 03:04:06 PM »
...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.

You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him.  Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.

Yep!  I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out.  The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash.  I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen.  It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way.  Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos.  Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.

Shouldn't those "general things and frameworks we can agree on" include acceptance of science and facts?  This era of "alternative facts" and the idea that belief/opinion outweighs objective reality is the most disturbing thing I've ever encountered.

Yes, acceptance of fact and science is very important as a corner stone for society and discourse.

I don't see that the current 'fake news' and 'alt facts' thing is about a direct rejection of facts, science, etc. It's about that some conservatives don't trust mainstream news, for real and fabricated betrays of objectivity. Trump capitalized on that, talk radio has been beating the drum for years. So into that vacuum is the fake news guys.

Please keep in mind also, liberals have blind spots to science and facts as well. Economics, the whole GMO thing, Vaccines (though that line of crazy seems to have been adopted by some of the right wingers recently.)

This is certainly true anti-science is a bipartisan and somewhat innately human failing. Science has always had to contend with, bad reporting, human intuition and peoples general distrust of things they can't easily understand. To top it all off science can be wrong in which case the best advice to follow at the moment can become the worst advice 10 years from now. That has always been a tough pill for people to swallow...

The current brand of Republicans though are famous for certain kinds of anti-science. Mainly environmental. Republicans for that last 20-30 years have been almost laughably opposed to nearly all forms of Federal environmental regulation.

Sadly I think the only thing that will change the parties tune is for the reality of mismanagement of the environment to return many parts of the country to an obvious state of health crises due to pollution. This is what made the initial founding of the EPA bipartisan and popular...

I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

SpeedReader

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2017, 08:25:46 PM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
[/quote]

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!

LennStar

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2017, 02:13:27 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
[/quote]
I actually think that this is playing a big role in Chinas undertaking of clean energy - the lawakers have to meet in Beijin regularily. And they are mostly older people who have more problems with smog. So if you have to carry around an oxygen tank in your marathon meetings it does tend to concentrate your thinking on the environmental problems, I think.
Also the loss of face is greatly felt there. You can't even keep your capital city's air breathable?

marty998

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2017, 02:35:13 AM »

I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

You seem to understand it, but for the benefit of others, the economic term for this is a "(negative) externality". There are cases of positive externalities, but you don't often hear about them.

It is up to the Government or Regulator to set the rules of the game so that society at large is not penalised by private profit generators.

Put another way, to dictate that a knight can move in an L shape, but to leave the choice of move up to the private sector.

The problem with taking away too many rules is that you end up with 16 queens on one side of the chess board. It's no longer a fair fight.

Just Joe

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2017, 07:29:21 AM »
I see/hear what I believe to be the GOP discussion "breaking words" so that their meanings are no longer clear. One consequence is it breaks discussion too. I think the more common word for this is "dog whistle politics".

Yes, it is a shame that we can't have political conversations using the same words, same meanings and come to some sort of happy middle ground.

Sibley

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2017, 09:44:15 AM »
Well, I didn't vote for him. I'm not happy about him. But there is only so much I can actually DO.

In a month or two I might be able to say "I told you so. Hope you're happy." to my mom. But right now, I doubt she'll listen. Then again, my sister did ask quite seriously if it was possible that she had some brain damage from chemotherapy, so who knows.

Update! Mom has stopped screaming at me every time current events or politics come up (which I and sister avoid like the devil). Still screams at my sister, but she's more liberal than me. She's also starting to sound like she's no longer neutral on Trump. Probably because we looked at the GOP's current health care bill and told her quite bluntly that if it passes as is, she won't have health insurance.

Just Joe

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2017, 12:01:30 PM »
I suspect that the healthcare bill will get the attention of many people who voted for him...

zoltani

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2017, 01:08:02 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp74MQBGMnk

Assuming that the problem is Trump is a serious simplification of what is going on in the world as a whole. IMO Trump is not the disease, he is merely a symptom.
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

LennStar

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #94 on: March 16, 2017, 01:20:03 AM »
I suspect that the healthcare bill will get the attention of many people who voted for him...
And hasn't the promise that he does this got their attention?
It was one of his biggest election promises - after building THE WALL and THE BAN.

Metric Mouse

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #95 on: March 16, 2017, 03:09:21 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
[/quote]
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

Just Joe

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #96 on: March 16, 2017, 07:39:52 AM »
Hey anything within reason that empties the roads and encourages people to walk and bike would be okay with me... I see much of this technology we are so damn dependent on (including my own Linux powered computer) as unsustainable in its current form.

We can't continue to dig raw materials out of the earth's crust at ever faster paces and then dump the two year old gadgets in a landfill. And we can't function as a nation with a political system that rejects environmental protections.

Metric Mouse

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #97 on: March 16, 2017, 07:50:11 AM »
Hey anything within reason that empties the roads and encourages people to walk and bike would be okay with me... I see much of this technology we are so damn dependent on (including my own Linux powered computer) as unsustainable in its current form.

We can't continue to dig raw materials out of the earth's crust at ever faster paces and then dump the two year old gadgets in a landfill. And we can't function as a nation with a political system that rejects environmental protections.

Absolutely. The functioning of the nation should be balanced with the protection of the environment; it's a tricky line in reality, but I feel we are generally moving in the right direction, over the past several decades.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2017, 08:20:48 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
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Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2017, 09:27:11 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
[/quote]
Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM