Author Topic: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...  (Read 8258 times)

Tasty Pinecones

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2017, 01:37:23 PM »
Hey anything within reason that empties the roads and encourages people to walk and bike would be okay with me... I see much of this technology we are so damn dependent on (including my own Linux powered computer) as unsustainable in its current form.

We can't continue to dig raw materials out of the earth's crust at ever faster paces and then dump the two year old gadgets in a landfill. And we can't function as a nation with a political system that rejects environmental protections.

Absolutely. The functioning of the nation should be balanced with the protection of the environment; it's a tricky line in reality, but I feel we are generally moving in the right direction, over the past several decades.

I'd like to see our town build some bike paths that separate the pedestrians and bikers from the cars rather than widen another street or build a new street. Basically a cart path.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8329
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2017, 06:06:31 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.
[/quote]

You mean the spill of chemicals that the private owner of the Gold King mine abandoned in 1923, that was slowly leaking out and poisoning the river anyway?  Don't get me wrong, the EPA totally mishandled the situation there (and discipline should be meted out to responsible parties) . . . but the root of the problem was not the EPA.

The Gold King mine is a great example of how the free market utterly fails to handle long term pollution related problems.

Tasty Pinecones

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2017, 09:33:01 AM »
And the conservatives have a history of allowing companies not be required to label ingredients or define fracking fluids.

hoping2retire35

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 978
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #103 on: March 17, 2017, 10:09:42 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.

You mean the spill of chemicals that the private owner of the Gold King mine abandoned in 1923, that was slowly leaking out and poisoning the river anyway?  Don't get me wrong, the EPA totally mishandled the situation there (and discipline should be meted out to responsible parties) . . . but the root of the problem was not the EPA.

The Gold King mine is a great example of how the free market utterly fails to handle long term pollution related problems.
[/quote]
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????

LennStar

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #104 on: March 17, 2017, 10:28:30 AM »
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!

Metric Mouse

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5313
  • FU @ 22. F.I.R.E before 23
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #105 on: March 20, 2017, 07:10:37 AM »
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!
Actually, as GuitarStv pointed out, the Government did find a solution. The private industry couldn't figure out how to stop the chemicals from slowly leaking into the river, so the government took over and dumped them all into the river at once. A great display of aptitude by two different systems trying to solve the same problem.
Give me one fine day of plain sailing weather and I can mess up anything.

MustacheMathTM

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 597
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2017, 03:24:21 PM »
Quote

This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic:   Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society.  The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism.  Good times, huh?

Awesome construct you have there.  Utterly without evidence, but fantastic nonetheless.

In practice we've seen a steady (and accelerating) increase in quality of life across the board - with some local exceptions.  Globally and in our own countries.  A big part of that is the gradual movement from 'us and them' into 'people are people'.

You seem to think society is perfect, and any effort to improve it is some form of marxist plot.  I call bullshit.

GuitarStv

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8329
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2017, 04:36:42 PM »
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!
Actually, as GuitarStv pointed out, the Government did find a solution. The private industry couldn't figure out how to stop the chemicals from slowly leaking into the river, so the government took over and dumped them all into the river at once. A great display of aptitude by two different systems trying to solve the same problem.

It was a colossal screw up on the part of the federal agency in charge.  Absolutely, people should be pissed about that.  It's important to remember though, that this only happened because of the utter failure of the free market to find a solution . . . particularly in a thread where people are claiming that the free market would solve the problem.

zoltani

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Location: PNW
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2017, 05:29:17 PM »
Quote

This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic:   Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society.  The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism.  Good times, huh?

Awesome construct you have there.  Utterly without evidence, but fantastic nonetheless.

In practice we've seen a steady (and accelerating) increase in quality of life across the board - with some local exceptions.  Globally and in our own countries.  A big part of that is the gradual movement from 'us and them' into 'people are people'.

You seem to think society is perfect, and any effort to improve it is some form of marxist plot.  I call bullshit.

For some fascinating insights into this I suggest listening to some of Dr. Jordan Peterson's lectures, blogs, and podcasts.

Here's a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VwG6oaFxJs
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:34:04 PM by zoltani »
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

PAstash

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2017, 09:56:28 PM »
WHOA! hold the phone here. to all foreign people who for some reason all of a sudden have a internet platform to throw in their two cents on how the States conducts itself here is what I've got to say to you!

You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history. PERIOD. Your country is still notorious for spying on it's citizens in a very similar way as it has done for the last 80 years. Where do you think we learned from?

You strike me as someone who reads and watches a lot of liberal news and forms a rash opinion and is easily made emotionally triggered. Anyone truly familiar with American politics would know that while trump is not what people wanted to vote in. He WAS voted in to send a message to the Clinton/Bush/Kennedy ect monarchy that seems to keep popping it's head up every election year.(To say we are tired of your bullshit) So that message was sent that we are using every tool we have to take the old trash out even if it means moving more but different trash in. 

Lastly we need to really say this to ALOT of people. YOU ARE NOT A AMERICAN CITIZEN! Your opinion means jack shit. It means especially less given the history of WW2 WW1 and others going back 200 years. The German barbarians have been a bane on European existence for sometime now. So why don't you build your house out of something besides glass before you start skipping stones across the pond you kraut.

[MOD NOTE:  Permanently banned for using racist terms and generally breaking rule #1.]
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 07:04:17 AM by FrugalToque »

PAstash

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2017, 09:57:52 PM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.

Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.

LennStar

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2017, 02:16:18 AM »
You strike me as someone who reads and watches a lot of liberal news and forms a rash opinion and is easily made emotionally triggered.
Dependign on what you mean with liberal you are right on that. The other two points could not be farer from the truth for me, but it seems they are very true for you, judging from your post.

Quote
You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history.
That is exactly WHY I warn you. I know (better then you "Amercian", who has no right to say anything about Germany according to your own words) how it happened. One mile away from where I am sitting "unworthy life" was gassed. I do not want that to happen again, anywhere on the world.

Quote
Lastly we need to really say this to ALOT of people. YOU ARE NOT An AMERICAN CITIZEN! Your opinion means jack shit.
I think that is the core of most of the problems the US has with other countries. If you ignore the opinion of other people - especially when your AMERICAN firms take away their land or water, your secret services incite wars or coups against democratically elected governments (US still holds the record here by far), or your army downright terror-kill their relatives - people tend to get angry and eventually shoot back in whatever way they can.


LennStar

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2017, 02:20:55 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.

Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.
There are no human races, so you can't be a racist then.
Really that straw man is so old nobody even wants to write the correction. Just google it.

PAstash

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2017, 03:39:24 AM »
You are drastically incorrect. Scientifically speaking. There are different races of humans but only one species. I think this is where you are confused. However..... Stv who this comment was aimed at not you used religion in the context of racism. You can't be racist to a religion. I think you are the one that needs to do the googleing.

PAstash

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2017, 03:53:03 AM »
You strike me as someone who reads and watches a lot of liberal news and forms a rash opinion and is easily made emotionally triggered.
Dependign on what you mean with liberal you are right on that. The other two points could not be farer from the truth for me, but it seems they are very true for you, judging from your post.

How could it be true for me? all I am pointing out is your emotional triggers on the subject I've known of my own so far on this subject. Your post was the one that was all heated.

Quote
You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history.
That is exactly WHY I warn you. I know (better then you "Amercian", who has no right to say anything about Germany according to your own words) how it happened. One mile away from where I am sitting "unworthy life" was gassed. I do not want that to happen again, anywhere on the world.

Friend.... the world knows. You don't have some special knowledge of the atrocities your country has committed. You are not a unique special snow flake. I'd go so far as to say the general population of my country has felt the loss more keenly as we had to come clean up the mess. It caused a generational impact here.

Quote
Lastly we need to really say this to ALOT of people. YOU ARE NOT An AMERICAN CITIZEN! Your opinion means jack shit.
I think that is the core of most of the problems the US has with other countries. If you ignore the opinion of other people - especially when your AMERICAN firms take away their land or water, your secret services incite wars or coups against democratically elected governments (US still holds the record here by far), or your army downright terror-kill their relatives - people tend to get angry and eventually shoot back in whatever way they can.

Ahhh here the truth comes out with the anti-American rhetoric. Yes we ignore your opinion because we are the super power who backs the worlds currency with the best most stable democratically elected government on the planet. American firms? The US government is not responsible for every international business making a splash. You have a problem with it appeal to your government to stop it. Stop meddling in mine. Until you pay taxes here and sign up for the military piss off.

this...  "people tend to get angry and eventually shoot back in whatever way they can." you actually just defended terrorism. Can you prove we incited a war or a coup? What were the alternative actions that could have been taken? What would have happened If we didn't? do you have access to all the knowledge of these same agency's? If you democratically elect a barbarian in a fixed election are they really the defacto leader?

It seems again here you are some yuppie with no concept of world politics on the larger scale. It's all your liberal apologist non sense with little concept of real world experience. My country and capitalism has single handedly pulled the majority of the planet out of poverty. So you will have to excuse me if I don't take Hitler spawn very seriously.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #115 on: March 29, 2017, 05:49:50 AM »
Anyone whose level of political analysis includes the phrase "Clinton/Bush/Kennedy ect (sic) monarchy" is a little tough to take seriously. Sorry, PAstash.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Location: MA
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #116 on: March 29, 2017, 06:41:32 AM »
Quote
WHOA! hold the phone here. to all foreign people who for some reason all of a sudden have a internet platform to throw in their two cents on how the States conducts itself here is what I've got to say to you!

You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history. PERIOD. Your country is still notorious for spying on it's citizens in a very similar way as it has done for the last 80 years. Where do you think we learned from?

They may have learned it from us, seeing as the US was responsible for the deaths of millions of native americans.  Or perhaps we could discuss the American slave trade? 

You are making America look really bad here PAstash.  I am not sure whether you have actually studied world or US history outside of a high school classroom, but I suggest you inform yourself a little more broadly.   Also, telling people they don't deserve to have an opinion based on where they were born is just dumb. 

LennStar

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #117 on: March 29, 2017, 07:47:32 AM »
Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.

Quote
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.

The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 07:50:10 AM by LennStar »

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3641
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #118 on: March 29, 2017, 08:55:10 AM »
Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.

Quote
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.

The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.

Relevant: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-writers/201208/why-bad-guys-think-theyre-good-guys

I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective.  People need to break out of their bubbles and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 08:58:52 AM by JLee »

Telecaster

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 818
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2017, 11:20:51 AM »

I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective.  People need to break out of their bubbles and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.

Excellent post.  I have the same problem with statements like that.  Everyone says they want diversity of opinion and want to hear new ideas, but in reality we mostly just want to hear things that already conform to what we already believe.  And that's exactly why we need to hear opinions that differ from our own.   


LennStar

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #120 on: March 30, 2017, 03:50:17 AM »
Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.

Quote
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.

The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.

Relevant: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-writers/201208/why-bad-guys-think-theyre-good-guys

I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective.  People need to break out of their bubbles and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.
Interesting text.
The Hitler case is one more for the "karma" thing. Hitler certainly was no devil at birth. But there were experience he and his generation had that made some things possible.
The "Schandfrieden von Versailles" as they coined it, the peace traty after WW1, placed an objectively near-impossibe burden on Germany (I think their were reparations payments for 150 years). These, together with the general '29 crisis and some errors of the German government lead to the hyperinflation, a traumatic experience still lingering in the German psyche.
It were these experiences that fired an assortment of nationalistic movements, not only in Germany. Much like Trump today it was "Germany first" and "work for Germans" that made Hitler famous and getting elected, though it's a myth that Hitler started with the Autobahn, but he definitely build a lot of them. Projects like that gave a lot of families an income and of course were crucial to the Blitzkrieg war tactic.

Everything is connected. There is no single reason. Hitler did not become dictator from one day to the other. It was a slow process, and on the start (and even in early 1939) a lot of people said he isn't that bad or even that he can be used.
And in the end the people wondered how it could have happened.

JLee

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3641
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #121 on: March 30, 2017, 09:16:49 AM »
Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.

Quote
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.

The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.

Relevant: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-writers/201208/why-bad-guys-think-theyre-good-guys

I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective.  People need to break out of their bubbles and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.
Interesting text.
The Hitler case is one more for the "karma" thing. Hitler certainly was no devil at birth. But there were experience he and his generation had that made some things possible.
The "Schandfrieden von Versailles" as they coined it, the peace traty after WW1, placed an objectively near-impossibe burden on Germany (I think their were reparations payments for 150 years). These, together with the general '29 crisis and some errors of the German government lead to the hyperinflation, a traumatic experience still lingering in the German psyche.
It were these experiences that fired an assortment of nationalistic movements, not only in Germany. Much like Trump today it was "Germany first" and "work for Germans" that made Hitler famous and getting elected, though it's a myth that Hitler started with the Autobahn, but he definitely build a lot of them. Projects like that gave a lot of families an income and of course were crucial to the Blitzkrieg war tactic.

Everything is connected. There is no single reason. Hitler did not become dictator from one day to the other. It was a slow process, and on the start (and even in early 1939) a lot of people said he isn't that bad or even that he can be used.
And in the end the people wondered how it could have happened.

I read a fascinating series of articles on the rise of Hitler a while ago - it's well worth the time: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/

Tasty Pinecones

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 762
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #122 on: March 30, 2017, 10:29:43 AM »
Excellent discussion. Thank you b/c it gives me hope that the thinkers of the world will hopefully continue to keep things on an even keel.

I'm sure there is a word for it but what do you call it when someone rejects a whole religion? Religions often come with cultural characteristics when people are full engaged with their religion - see the Jews and the Amish. This is different from others who proclaim themselves to be a certain religion but seldom "walk the walk".

Xenophobia doesn't fit I think. And neither does racism. What should I call it?

Am reading Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States" as suggested by someone here in the forums. History as taught in the USA (grade school and intro to history in college) glosses over SO much. And it seldom looks at history from the perspective of the "little person". American history is not the shiny example of humanity that is taught to the young children. Our gov't has done some terrible things over the past 250 years.

Look at American history from the perspective of a slave or an American Indian or as a woman. Look at it from the perspective of the man with no property and thus unable to vote but expected to fight in the government's wars. Look at it from the perspective of the poor youth drafted and sent to Vietnam or Korea knowing that their college bound classmates are not obligated to serve and/or die for the Army.

Look at it from an oppressed minority (Negro slaves or American Indians or white indentured servants) whose back is up against the wall. Capitulate and be forced back into economic or literal slavery or fight and kill for your freedom. Yeah, they might be called a terrorist by the person/gov't putting economic or military pressure on a group of people. From their perspective they are resisting an invading army. I can assure you I would react badly to a drone shooting at me and mine.

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

I won't brag on the American government any longer. At one time it was one of the greatest examples of democracy. Not anymore. First - start with the BLOTUS (Biggest Liar in the United States). Then the cronyism/nepotism is mind boggling. To me, i think the government is barely functioning as it is supposed to. It mostly functions as a lifetime meal ticket for the people willing to play favorites with rich donors. 

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #123 on: March 30, 2017, 12:00:41 PM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.

Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.

I always find this to be an even lazier response than loosely using the term racism. In this context it is 100% clear that by invoking the term racism they are just referring to potential sign of bigotry. Trying to deflect by saying that something is not "racists" as if that dissolves the accusation is weak at best. We are all a little bigoted against groups far outside of our social norms.

No for a segue.

There is a fine line between being wary of a group because of a shared attribute that may lead to undesirable behavior and making simplistic sweeping generalized assumptions based on that attribute.

You could argue that racism is a special form of bigotry because you can chose a religion and you cant chose your race, therefor discriminating against an inherited group attribute is someone more harmful. But I don't believe that is 100% true either. The concept of race is largely not science based with a significant part of all historical racial identification being rooted in social constructs and visual observations with larges amounts of grey area and bias.

This is partly due to a lack of genetic science to adequately define the biological meaning of race over our long history of racial tribalism, and also partly due to the practice of racial categorization by firm genetically defined boundaries being frowned upon since it generally leads people down the path of eugenics and other socially unethical scientific pursuits.

Those genetic boundaries will deteriorate over time anyway if we maintain efficient global transportation long enough. Genetic isolation of particular groups will become more and more rare if say our industrialized world continues to progress for another few thousand years or more.

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2017, 12:20:24 PM »
I'm sure there is a word for it but what do you call it when someone rejects a whole religion?

Ostensibly by the very nature of religion if you are not a part of it you reject it. I don't think we need a word for that. In general if you project undue hate or disdain upon people in general based on a religion we should just refer to that a being generally bigoted or discriminatory.

But you have to look at policies and peoples attitudes against religious groups on a case by case basis. Avoiding discrimination for instance by refraining from all discussion and policies against religions which we may be spreading socially unjust practices is not a good idea. But there is a fine line to be walked to maintain a principle most of us find value, freedom of religion, and also acknowledging that many religions contain some teaching that by today's standards are morally reprehensible.

I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and  are filled with opportunities for political abuse. But religion is, at least for now and the foreseeable future, part of the human condition and it does help some people become better stewards of society by helping them to emotionally deal with life's many challenges.

At this point I could not even grantee that if enough bad things happened to me I might not decide to walk back my general atheism and seek some sort of religious grounding, but I suspect I will always find a lot of things to dislike about organized religion.

prognastat

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 694
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Texas
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2017, 12:50:04 PM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.

Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.

I always find this to be an even lazier response than loosely using the term racism. In this context it is 100% clear that by invoking the term racism they are just referring to potential sign of bigotry. Trying to deflect by saying that something is not "racists" as if that dissolves the accusation is weak at best. We are all a little bigoted against groups far outside of our social norms.

No for a segue.

There is a fine line between being wary of a group because of a shared attribute that may lead to undesirable behavior and making simplistic sweeping generalized assumptions based on that attribute.

You could argue that racism is a special form of bigotry because you can chose a religion and you cant chose your race, therefor discriminating against an inherited group attribute is someone more harmful. But I don't believe that is 100% true either. The concept of race is largely not science based with a significant part of all historical racial identification being rooted in social constructs and visual observations with larges amounts of grey area and bias.

This is partly due to a lack of genetic science to adequately define the biological meaning of race over our long history of racial tribalism, and also partly due to the practice of racial categorization by firm genetically defined boundaries being frowned upon since it generally leads people down the path of eugenics and other socially unethical scientific pursuits.

Those genetic boundaries will deteriorate over time anyway if we maintain efficient global transportation long enough. Genetic isolation of particular groups will become more and more rare if say our industrialized world continues to progress for another few thousand years or more.

I think this is a little bit of an insincere accusation in a decent few cases. Racism is judging someone negatively not on the content of their character and their actions, but instead an arbitrary part of them that they have no control over. Judging someone negatively over their actions and/or beliefs is very different and conflating the two is a very dangerous proposition.

Are there people who are bigoted towards middle eastern people? Definitely and they can of course be racist.

However, it seems in many cases that making similar criticisms of Muslims and Islam in the way that many may criticize Christians and Christianity, which is absolutely not racism, is lumped in as racism/islamophobia and conflating the two is insincere and dangerous in both the sense that it devalues the legitimate stigma against those that would actually be racist, if criticism of belief becomes generally considered racist then being a racist isn't that bad a thing anymore, and at the same time shuts down conversations around beliefs and their impact on the world and people's behaviors.

A good example is Charlie Hebdo who mercilessly attacked the Christian Church/Vatican, Judaism etc and no one bats an eye. However when they do so in regards to Islam people come out of the woodwork to call them racist and Islamophobic and though the attacks are to be condemned it isn't unexpected that this may happen when you treat people this way...

Also your argument as far as that race isn't an inherited attribute is not true. Though through mixing of gene pools it is of course less and less likely for people to be 100% one race or another visually there are definitely genetic markers that are distinguished between races. This actually leads to certain health risks varying between different races due to the differences genetically. However, even disregarding this the point stands separate. I would say racism itself falls under the category of judging someone on something they have no control over, which is what makes it inherently wrong. There are some cases where discriminating on these kinds of characteristics might be valid, however these are extremely limited and should be kept to a minimum since I as many others believe that fairly rewarding someone for their actions/contributions makes for a better society than one where you are rewarded for innate qualities that did not impact your performance.

For example, is it completely fair that people who won the genetic lottery in regards to intelligence happen to dominate many high paying fields? No, but it is their performance and not the innate quality itself is what is appreciated. We are ok with judging based on this largely innate characteristic as it impacts performance and if it still requires hard work to make use of the innate quality.

Though most Muslims are middle eastern this is not the criteria for being a Muslim. You can be a non middle eastern Muslim and you can be middle eastern and not be a Muslim. In fact a large amount of muslims are either African or Asian.

In the end I find it a dangerous idea to equate bigotry in regards to someone's innate qualities whatever they may be to bigotry of ideas/religion. Unfortunately, people with good intent have used this idea to defend those they believe in need and meanwhile some with ill intent have managed to take it and run with it to the point where we have shielded an entire religion from criticism that most other religions in the west are not afforded, because in the end the actual racists aren't deterred by these accusations.

Also what is more racist? Criticizing all religions/beliefs regardless of what happens to be the skin colour of the majority of adherents? Or saying that it's ok to criticize Christianity because the "white" people are reasonable and can take it, but we don't want to offend "brown" people?

I find the latter to be far more insidious.

prognastat

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 694
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Texas
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2017, 12:52:11 PM »
I'm sure there is a word for it but what do you call it when someone rejects a whole religion?

Ostensibly by the very nature of religion if you are not a part of it you reject it. I don't think we need a word for that. In general if you project undue hate or disdain upon people in general based on a religion we should just refer to that a being generally bigoted or discriminatory.

But you have to look at policies and peoples attitudes against religious groups on a case by case basis. Avoiding discrimination for instance by refraining from all discussion and policies against religions which we may be spreading socially unjust practices is not a good idea. But there is a fine line to be walked to maintain a principle most of us find value, freedom of religion, and also acknowledging that many religions contain some teaching that by today's standards are morally reprehensible.

I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and  are filled with opportunities for political abuse. But religion is, at least for now and the foreseeable future, part of the human condition and it does help some people become better stewards of society by helping them to emotionally deal with life's many challenges.

At this point I could not even grantee that if enough bad things happened to me I might not decide to walk back my general atheism and seek some sort of religious grounding, but I suspect I will always find a lot of things to dislike about organized religion.

Well you changed your point enough to make most of my response invalid, unfortunately the MMM forum has made it impossible for me to edit my own posts recently so I can't amend the previous post.

LennStar

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 830
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2017, 01:41:44 PM »
I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and are filled with opportunities for political abuse.
I would argue that this is only true for institutionalized religion.

Quote
Though most Muslims are middle eastern
Actually most muslims are Oceanic. Biggest muslim country there too (in terms of population).

prognastat

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 694
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Texas
Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2017, 02:16:23 PM »
I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and are filled with opportunities for political abuse.
I would argue that this is only true for institutionalized religion.

Quote
Though most Muslims are middle eastern
Actually most muslims are Oceanic. Biggest muslim country there too (in terms of population).

I would have to see the exact numbers to make sure, Indonesia has a lot of people, but it doesn't really address any of the central points of my rebuttal and would only strengthen my point against Muslim being linked to race.