Author Topic: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...  (Read 5384 times)

Tasty Pinecones

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2017, 01:37:23 PM »
Hey anything within reason that empties the roads and encourages people to walk and bike would be okay with me... I see much of this technology we are so damn dependent on (including my own Linux powered computer) as unsustainable in its current form.

We can't continue to dig raw materials out of the earth's crust at ever faster paces and then dump the two year old gadgets in a landfill. And we can't function as a nation with a political system that rejects environmental protections.

Absolutely. The functioning of the nation should be balanced with the protection of the environment; it's a tricky line in reality, but I feel we are generally moving in the right direction, over the past several decades.

I'd like to see our town build some bike paths that separate the pedestrians and bikers from the cars rather than widen another street or build a new street. Basically a cart path.

GuitarStv

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2017, 06:06:31 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.
[/quote]

You mean the spill of chemicals that the private owner of the Gold King mine abandoned in 1923, that was slowly leaking out and poisoning the river anyway?  Don't get me wrong, the EPA totally mishandled the situation there (and discipline should be meted out to responsible parties) . . . but the root of the problem was not the EPA.

The Gold King mine is a great example of how the free market utterly fails to handle long term pollution related problems.

Tasty Pinecones

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2017, 09:33:01 AM »
And the conservatives have a history of allowing companies not be required to label ingredients or define fracking fluids.

hoping2retire35

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #103 on: March 17, 2017, 10:09:42 AM »
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...

I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring.  Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.

You mean the spill of chemicals that the private owner of the Gold King mine abandoned in 1923, that was slowly leaking out and poisoning the river anyway?  Don't get me wrong, the EPA totally mishandled the situation there (and discipline should be meted out to responsible parties) . . . but the root of the problem was not the EPA.

The Gold King mine is a great example of how the free market utterly fails to handle long term pollution related problems.
[/quote]
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????

LennStar

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #104 on: March 17, 2017, 10:28:30 AM »
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!

Metric Mouse

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #105 on: March 20, 2017, 07:10:37 AM »
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!
Actually, as GuitarStv pointed out, the Government did find a solution. The private industry couldn't figure out how to stop the chemicals from slowly leaking into the river, so the government took over and dumped them all into the river at once. A great display of aptitude by two different systems trying to solve the same problem.
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rocketpj

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2017, 03:24:21 PM »
Quote

This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic:   Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society.  The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism.  Good times, huh?

Awesome construct you have there.  Utterly without evidence, but fantastic nonetheless.

In practice we've seen a steady (and accelerating) increase in quality of life across the board - with some local exceptions.  Globally and in our own countries.  A big part of that is the gradual movement from 'us and them' into 'people are people'.

You seem to think society is perfect, and any effort to improve it is some form of marxist plot.  I call bullshit.

GuitarStv

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2017, 04:36:42 PM »
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!
Actually, as GuitarStv pointed out, the Government did find a solution. The private industry couldn't figure out how to stop the chemicals from slowly leaking into the river, so the government took over and dumped them all into the river at once. A great display of aptitude by two different systems trying to solve the same problem.

It was a colossal screw up on the part of the federal agency in charge.  Absolutely, people should be pissed about that.  It's important to remember though, that this only happened because of the utter failure of the free market to find a solution . . . particularly in a thread where people are claiming that the free market would solve the problem.

zoltani

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2017, 05:29:17 PM »
Quote

This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic:   Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society.  The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism.  Good times, huh?

Awesome construct you have there.  Utterly without evidence, but fantastic nonetheless.

In practice we've seen a steady (and accelerating) increase in quality of life across the board - with some local exceptions.  Globally and in our own countries.  A big part of that is the gradual movement from 'us and them' into 'people are people'.

You seem to think society is perfect, and any effort to improve it is some form of marxist plot.  I call bullshit.

For some fascinating insights into this I suggest listening to some of Dr. Jordan Peterson's lectures, blogs, and podcasts.

Here's a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VwG6oaFxJs
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 05:34:04 PM by zoltani »
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