Author Topic: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...  (Read 5383 times)

LennStar

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To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« on: January 25, 2017, 05:23:10 AM »
original with picture and better formatting: https://steemit.com/politics/@lennstar/to-the-us-people-those-who-don-t-learn-from-history

The world looks aghast at the USA. The new president Trump is what nobody wanted to believe - as bad as he said he is. Or even worse.

He already stopped grants to science (people don't even know if they get paid at the end of month). After the White House webpages on climate change got deleted on the day of inauguration, now the EPA has to delete them, too. (Did you really think, after Trump asked for a list of scientist and staff, he will do nothing?)
The Department of Agriculture is also banned from speaking about scientific results - as are others.
Today Trump will announce the building of a great wall after already stopping a lot of immigration possibilities.
His Propaga... sorry, Speaker. His speaker already, on his first day, told blatant lies in the face of journalists, and talking about an "alternative" truth.

No, that is not idiocy or incompetence or anything on that line. That is part of establishing a new "truth"!

Why can I say that? First, because nobody that is as dumb as all this looks gets into power.
Second because I am from Germany. We already had all that.

We had someone who said "Germany first! Make Germany great again!".
We had someone who only took from other countries and not giving anything back.
We had it that university departments where closed and new ones were established, that teached "Rassenkunde".
We had it that people from a certain background were harassed, regardless of their personal conduct.
We had it that scientific results were destroyed so that nobody could use them. Of course, that was before the time of the internet. You could not just delete websites that didn't fit into your ideology back then. You needed a bit of physical work for that.


Don't say you weren't warned. You were. Several month ago. Don't feign ignorance.

Do not accept that your president decides what the truth is or who is from "a good race" or not.


War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength - George Orwell, 1984

LalsConstant

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 05:56:51 AM »
As big of a troublemaker Clodius was, it wasn't until the Roman establishment killed him that the true demise of the Republic began.

Fear not the populist, fear the inevitable backlash against the populist.

Kaspian

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 09:48:27 AM »
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength - George Orwell, 1984

Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies).  I'm in the centre and some of the things we've seen come out of liberal policies in the name of empathy are equally fucking terrifying (and possibly moreso?) because they're so insidious.  They're the actual masters of doublespeak.

This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic:   Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society.  The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism.  Good times, huh?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:51:08 AM by Kaspian »
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 09:58:14 AM »
Well, I didn't vote for him. I'm not happy about him. But there is only so much I can actually DO.

In a month or two I might be able to say "I told you so. Hope you're happy." to my mom. But right now, I doubt she'll listen. Then again, my sister did ask quite seriously if it was possible that she had some brain damage from chemotherapy, so who knows.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 09:35:15 PM »
A scared as I am, and rightly so, I have to say that I am very heartened by the rush of "alt" twitter accounts created for the EPA, NASA, the national parks service, and more. #resist
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llorona

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2017, 12:17:35 AM »
Remember, the majority of Americans did not vote for the shriveled tangerine.

I'm looking aghast at the USA and I live here.

Cranberries

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2017, 12:32:25 AM »
Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies). 

Huh? No, that is completely incorrect. Read Homage to Catelonia. Orwell fought the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was explicitly, consistently, antifascist. Overall his philosophy was anti-totalitarian, which includes both fascism and the Soviet versions of communism.

SuperMex

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2017, 01:01:14 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

I hated Obama and what he did to the military. When he gave an order I disagreed with I saluted and moved out to implement them because he was the CDR and Chief.

Trump will be no different he will give orders I agree with and others I disagree with either way as a citizen it is my job to support him.

We had the worst choice of Presidents in American history we had to pick one of them.

I always tell my German coworkers the American two party system is like:

Someone asks would you rather I hit you with a hammer or baseball bat?

Most sane people would say neither; I don't want you to hit me at all!

In America they say that isn't a choice which one do you want.


GuitarStv

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2017, 05:36:31 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2017, 05:46:37 AM »
The number of Godwin's Law participants on the left is really quite hilarious.  I hope you guys can keep it up all 4 years.  That would ensure a second term.
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golden1

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 06:19:27 AM »
Quote
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Sir (or Ma'am), I value your service, but this was really poor form. 

ysette9

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2017, 07:11:35 AM »
Germany simply remembers that the last time they were complicit or stood by idly while masses of people were displaced and killed history did not look too kindly upon them. Perhaps there is a lesson there that we are refusing to learn, huh?
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2017, 07:26:21 AM »
Trump will be no different he will give orders I agree with and others I disagree with either way as a citizen it is my job to support him.

Dead wrong.  Your military oath is to defend the US constitution, not support the president.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2017, 07:32:00 AM »
Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies). 

Huh? No, that is completely incorrect. Read Homage to Catelonia. Orwell fought the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was explicitly, consistently, antifascist. Overall his philosophy was anti-totalitarian, which includes both fascism and the Soviet versions of communism.

Was overgeneralizing somewhat but  Orwell designed "1984" to sound the alarm in Western nations still unsure about how to approach the rise of communism.  And that involves authoritarian left-wing ideologies.  I am not completely incorrect at all.
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Kaspian

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 07:36:35 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.

Holy fucking shit.  You just out post-modernized SuperMex (and maybe even the world).  Those are outrageous statements.  You got everything emotive in there.  Sure you don't want to add kicking puppies too?
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SuperMex

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 07:37:33 AM »
Trump will be no different he will give orders I agree with and others I disagree with either way as a citizen it is my job to support him.

Dead wrong.  Your military oath is to defend the US constitution, not support the president.

You are correct I was referring to lawful orders. I have personally on a few occasions refused to follow orders both in and out of combat that I felt were unlawful.

Obama that I can remember never asked us to do anything unlawful.

His orders were always things that destroyed the militaries ability to fight and win or placed us in greater danger. Neither of these two items are unlawful in anyway.

As of yet a whopping 5-6 days I can't say that Trump has given any unlawful orders either.

bacchi

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 07:45:12 AM »
Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies). 

Huh? No, that is completely incorrect. Read Homage to Catelonia. Orwell fought the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was explicitly, consistently, antifascist. Overall his philosophy was anti-totalitarian, which includes both fascism and the Soviet versions of communism.

Was overgeneralizing somewhat but  Orwell designed "1984" to sound the alarm in Western nations still unsure about how to approach the rise of communism.  And that involves authoritarian left-wing ideologies.  I am not completely incorrect at all.

Orwell considered Soviet communism to be an extreme right ideology. He was a socialist.

The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.

SuperMex

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 07:47:30 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.


You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?  What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

Kaspian

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 07:54:24 AM »
The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.

Maybe not, but the election of Trump was.  People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.
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bacchi

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 08:03:51 AM »
The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.

Maybe not, but the election of Trump was.  People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.

Eh, Obama was going to steal all the guns. The fear of left-wing authoritarianism has been around for a while.

What got Trump elected was lower numbers of Democrats voting, and only within the margin of error. Clinton did not inspire. People who are worried about their guns and socialism wouldn't have voted for Sanders either.

BeginnerStache

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2017, 08:18:33 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.


You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?  What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case.  I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused. 

GuitarStv

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2017, 08:24:19 AM »
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

Neither are Jews.  It didn't stop people exactly like you from killing millions of them in the name of racial purity.


You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law.  There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people.  To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.


By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?

I guess the number saved depends on how public we make the crimes perpetrated by you and your coworkers.  If talking about it can reduce the murder and torture down to zero I'd be pretty happy.  Sadly, we're far from that at the moment . . . and the new president has indicated plans to ramp up both.


What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

The neighhourhood that I live in is predominantly Hindu, Sunni Muslim, and Sikh.  I've got plenty of experience living and working with people who are Muslim, and have many friends and neighbours who belong to the religion.  I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.

LalsConstant

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2017, 08:45:10 AM »
The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.

Maybe not, but the election of Trump was.  People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.

Eh, Obama was going to steal all the guns. The fear of left-wing authoritarianism has been around for a while.

What got Trump elected was lower numbers of Democrats voting, and only within the margin of error. Clinton did not inspire. People who are worried about their guns and socialism wouldn't have voted for Sanders either.

I see it totally different.  Obama, who I am not a fan of overall but I give him a nod when he says something that is correct, observed that you have to be President of everybody.  You can't just cast aside the people you don't agree with.

Clinton's infamous basket of deplorables comment showed how arrogant and clueless the political establishment was going into this election.  It was hers to lose.  I think most Americans would overlook her foreign bribes and criminal actions since we are used to that level of corruption, but the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.

You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him.  Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2017, 08:47:48 AM »

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law.  There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people.  To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.

...
 I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.

That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards.  ...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?
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SuperMex

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2017, 08:50:59 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.


You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?  What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case.  I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.

I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.

The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.

Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.

I spent three years in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. For a complete year I lived with the Iraqi military in a remote area with 10 other Soldiers far away from any U.S. base. Before going on this mission we trained for four months in a special program that included daily Arabic language and culture classes.

We each had our own Iraqi interpreter, we taught them how to shoot, fight, and lived 24 hours a day with them for a year. We lost one to a suicide bomber. We armed them to keep them alive at a time when they were being target and killed while coming or going from leave. Ultimately we were able to get citizenship for two of them. One is a college professor and the other works translating documents for the U.S. government.

Another year I was part of a reconstruction team that managed the building of infrastructure including schools, clinics, and water supplies.

I have pulled injured Iraqis out of burning cars. I've kept them alive when wounded, I even have a crooked nose from when I was working on a wounded terrorist who regained consciousness and broke my nose while I was keeping him alive. I had to choke him unconscious and then went back to stopping his bleeding.

The bottom line is there are good and bad Muslims but to place 1.5 million individuals with a totally different cultural value system into a socialist country where women are equal to men and expect anything less than chaos is ignorant indeed.

The bottom line is I understand Arab and Muslim culture I even speak a little bit of modern standard Arabic.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2017, 08:56:31 AM »

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law.  There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people.  To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.

...
 I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.

That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards.  ...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?
Quote
tu quoque
You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.
Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

golden1

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2017, 08:57:17 AM »
Quote
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?  What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

One of my best friends is a practicing Muslim.  Nicest person you ever met.  Gets a bit cranky during Ramadan, but I let that pass.  I guess I have never "saved" her, but I have helped her out on many occasions, just as you would anyone else who is a friend. 

Muslims aren't a race, no.  So are you implying that all or even most Muslims are rapists, thieves and terrorists?  How are we going to test if someone is a Muslim?  Serious question, because I have never heard an answer that doesn't involve profiling by race, in which case you are going to miss a lot of guilty people and hurt a lot of innocents. 

Islam isn't the same as radical islam.  Just the same as I don't judge Christians by the most extreme members of their religion. 


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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2017, 08:58:30 AM »
...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.

You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him.  Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.

Yep!  I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out.  The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash.  I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen.  It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way.  Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos.  Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.
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Kris

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2017, 08:58:58 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.


You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?  What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case.  I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.

I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.

The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.

Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.

I spent three years in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. For a complete year I lived with the Iraqi military in a remote area with 10 other Soldiers far away from any U.S. base. Before going on this mission we trained for four months in a special program that included daily Arabic language and culture classes.

We each had our own Iraqi interpreter, we taught them how to shoot, fight, and lived 24 hours a day with them for a year. We lost one to a suicide bomber. We armed them to keep them alive at a time when they were being target and killed while coming or going from leave. Ultimately we were able to get citizenship for two of them. One is a college professor and the other works translating documents for the U.S. government.

Another year I was part of a reconstruction team that managed the building of infrastructure including schools, clinics, and water supplies.

I have pulled injured Iraqis out of burning cars. I've kept them alive when wounded, I even have a crooked nose from when I was working on a wounded terrorist who regained consciousness and broke my nose while I was keeping him alive. I had to choke him unconscious and then went back to stopping his bleeding.

The bottom line is there are good and bad Muslims but to place 1.5 million individuals with a totally different cultural value system into a socialist country where women are equal to men and expect anything less than chaos expect 1.5 million individuals who are escaping murder, rape, famine, and torture by terrorists in their own country to stay there instead of fleeing for their lives is ignorant indeed.

The bottom line is I understand Arab and Muslim culture I even speak a little bit of modern standard Arabic.

FTFY.
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2017, 09:00:29 AM »

Quote
tu quoque
You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.
Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2017, 09:01:33 AM »
Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.

Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.

It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.

Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials.  I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.


You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?  What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?

Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case.  I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.

Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.

You aren't stating a fact. But you are in fact being culturally racist. First of all they are "refugees" not "refuges." Secondly you are lumping ALL 1.5 million into the same broad culturally racist category.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2017, 09:01:54 AM »

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law.  There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people.  To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.

...
 I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.

That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards.

Everything that I said about the US military is current fact.

- They support child rapists in Afghanistan.
- They torture innocent people.
- They murder civilians regularly (Official count for 2016 from the White House was 64 murders, the number is put much higher by independent reporting).
- They run a concentration camp where Muslims are held indefinitely without trial or evidence (and where several suspicious 'suicides' have taken place under military watch).


  ...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?

Yep.  The US military did some great stuff 70 years ago, and continues to do some good around the world.  That doesn't make the evil that it commits any more acceptable.  You don't just get to murder your neighbour and torture his wife after living a pious life for fifty years.  If anything, you should be more upset at the modern actions of the military.  These people know better.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2017, 09:03:26 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion.   Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals. 

I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly.  That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies. 

SO PLEASE, stop the hypocrisy. 

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2017, 09:04:24 AM »
The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.

Maybe not, but the election of Trump was.  People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.

+1

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2017, 09:17:13 AM »

You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?

Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law.  There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people.  To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.

...
 I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.

That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards.  ...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?

This is one of the most annoying myths of WW2 that I hear from people that makes me want to rage. By the time America entered the second world war, the Germans were already being pushed back by the Russians. Please see Stalingrad.

I think it should at this point be well understood that the Americans accelerated the length that the war was won but it most certainly could have and would have been won without them.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 09:20:14 AM by Rimu05 »

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2017, 09:18:23 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2017, 09:20:32 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion.   Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals. 

I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly.  That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies. 

SO PLEASE, stop the hypocrisy.

First, I am a liberal--and score 10 on that in the Big 5 personality traits.  Or, at least I thought I was until they alienated everyone by letting moonbats run the circus.  And Fox?  Ugh, man.... That's setting the bar low for any sort of news.  I can't even watch the "five minutes" worth you're talking about.  I'm saying I understand why Trump won, where it came from, and I'm actually pissed off at the liberals for going bully and freakazoid.  (And for going more and more Marxist--because that's a ticket to badness.)  Maybe they picked up traits from Republican outrage?  I don't know.  But I do know that in the past 3 or 4 years things in the left side have been getting whacky and more authoritarian than the very people they're against.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 09:22:30 AM by Kaspian »
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2017, 09:20:59 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion.   Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals. 

I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly.  That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies. 

SO PLEASE, stop the hypocrisy.

Oh come on, you don't find the condescension towards condescending liberals to be at least a little bit funny?

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2017, 09:25:21 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.

The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2017, 09:38:04 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.

The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.

Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is.  They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions.  (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2017, 09:42:52 AM »
Whether other groups are condescending or not isn't really the issue.  The issue is that when you are the establishment and you are against a populist, showing such an extreme disdain for people who are genuinely skeptical of your suitability is going to damage your cause and play into the rhetoric of your opponent.

Romney got stomped because he called 45 percent of Americans parasites, so there's definitely the same behavior on both sides, but the point here is because Clinton's position in popular standing was as the establishment candidate (see all the Never Trump republicans who wanted her to win), the move was especially disastrous for her candidacy.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2017, 09:45:21 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.

The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.

Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is.  They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions.  (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded.  Just my own experience though.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2017, 09:47:14 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.

The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.

Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is.  They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions.  (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded.  Just my own experience though.

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This was basically my experience as well.  My extended family is still religious and have a pattern of vehemently shutting down anyone that is outside of their belief system.

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2017, 09:51:49 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.

The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.

Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is.  They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions.  (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded.  Just my own experience though.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

This was basically my experience as well.  My extended family is still religious and have a pattern of vehemently shutting down anyone that is outside of their belief system.

Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.

Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 10:06:28 AM by Kris »
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2017, 09:56:34 AM »
That's sad.  Maybe it's where many people are failing and where all the disdain is coming from?  I think there's very much a "Game of Thrones," mentality going on out there--"If you don't agree with me on all things, I will see you burn!"  It's been my experience traveling the south that I can talk to most people freely without them freaking out.  (Though they might raise an eyebrow here or there.) The range of taboo topics seems a little narrower.  I'm pretty sure (thankfully!) that by definition of being on MMM most of us here are fairly receptive to trying on new ideas and approaches. 
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2017, 10:09:10 AM »
I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it.  Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.

The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.

Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is.  They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions.  (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded.  Just my own experience though.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

This was basically my experience as well.  My extended family is still religious and have a pattern of vehemently shutting down anyone that is outside of their belief system.

Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.

Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. It's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.

Similar experiences as well. My "alt-right" family members despise the fact the I tend to care about folks of all skin colors other than myself. That I support gay marriage etc. And my experience outside of my own family to religious types have no really bode well for me. I was much less accepting of other's views when I myself was more fully engrained in religion and considered myself a Republican based on my other views. Thankfully that was in the past. I much prefer representing myself rather than a political ideology. 

I don't think there is some sort of statistic that can rightfully claim the left is more tolerant or the right is more tolerant. We all have our own experiences. As of right now trump isn't proving to anyone he is tolerant of anyone's views but his own. That doesn't bode well for the right. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 10:15:23 AM by BeginnerStache »

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2017, 10:25:38 AM »
Source (several years ago):  http://ava.publicreligion.org/

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2017, 10:36:11 AM »
Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies).  I'm in the centre and some of the things we've seen come out of liberal policies in the name of empathy are equally fucking terrifying (and possibly moreso?) because they're so insidious.  They're the actual masters of doublespeak.


Orwell was a deeply committed socialist, and strongly opposed to fascism.   He was opposed to all forms of authoritarianism (hence his rejection of the Soviet socialist model) and believed deeply in individual rights. 

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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2017, 10:46:13 AM »
Source (several years ago):  http://ava.publicreligion.org/

Well, not sure what prompted them to unfollow, but in my case, the Trump supporters on my wall openly call for Hillary being raped or killed, scream in ALL CAPS that Muslims need to all be in jail or even put to a violent death, and their friends have attacked me and threatened my personal safety. Including people who have gone out of their way to tell me how ugly I am and how my husband hates me and can't stand having sex with me. (One PMed me to tell me they can figure out where I live from my online presence and implying that it would be easy to come to my house and do me harm.)

So, you know, there's another side to this that your nice little graph isn't really taking into account.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 11:32:59 AM by Kris »
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Re: To the US people: Those who don't learn from history...
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2017, 10:48:21 AM »
Source (several years ago):  http://ava.publicreligion.org/

That's an irrelevant and potentially misleading data point.  I don't make a habit of following friends who constantly post hateful stuff, deliberately refuse to acknowledge the views of others, and are incapable of holding a respectful and intelligent discussion.  Every conversation I've had (or tried to have) with a Trump supporter has devolved into a constant slew of logical fallacies thrown at me in response.

Here's a very brief example.  I have yet to experience a mutually beneficial discussion with a Trump supporter. I'm sure there are some out there, but I have not ran across any yet.