Author Topic: This debate  (Read 25270 times)

deadlymonkey

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Re: This debate
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2016, 12:25:55 PM »
Trump is now claiming he did not have the sniffles, even though millions heard the sniffles. Apparently something was wrong with his mic, so he claims. It was lower than Hillary's mic, although he doesn't believe in conspiracy theories. This guy is beyond batshit crazy!

His sniffing and hand mannerisms are those of someone who just did a massive line of coke.  Not saying that Trump is doing cocaine, just pointing out similarities....you decide!

MrMoogle

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Luck12

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Re: This debate
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2016, 12:31:26 PM »
looking at the debate objectively all you can say is both lost. 

Oh really?   Independents 54-33 say she won.    Even Frank Luntz' (heavily republican marketer) focus group overwhelmingly said Clinton won.    Now you can predict it won't have any effect on voting, but you can't say she didn't win. 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/27/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-debate-poll/

http://www.vox.com/2016/9/27/13069088/hillary-clinton-won-first-presidential-debate

FIPurpose

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Re: This debate
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2016, 12:34:11 PM »
I don't understand the sentiment that the needle not moving is a win for Trump. Trump is behind. Really really badly. He can't win suppressing voter turnout or just rallying his own. He cannot win unless he starts pulling moderates. Hillary will gladly take 3 boring debates because no will be moved and shell keep her 3-10 point lead.

Looks like we'll have to wait for the VP debate for policy discussion. Since they're less politicized, I assume we'll actually get it there.

That was the case, not anymore. Before the debate, he's just about dead even: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/
Look at the swing states, not the national average.

But that's where his whole issue is. Winning the electoral votes is a long shot. He basically needs to run the table on the entire set of toss-up states, or somehow come up with a liberal state (virginia or Penns. but that's not happening). Assigning states that have been won by Obama/Romney by good margin and are polling the same way, I see:

Hillary - 263
Trump - 192

Toss ups:
NV - 6
CO - 9
IA - 6
OH - 18
NC - 15
FL - 29

Trump has to win 5/6 toss-ups to win. I would call that terrible odds.
EDIT: and the 1/6 has to be NV or IA. Hillary could win with trump winning OH and florida by just winning CO.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 12:38:49 PM by FIPurpose »

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Re: This debate
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2016, 12:41:02 PM »
Trump won, big league.

I mean, he said the best things, the very best.

He went after Hillary like nobody else, Hillary won't even be around after he's done with her.

He showed how he loves women, just loves them. And the Hispanics, and the blacks. So much love.

Some people are saying he won the debate and did the debate so well, that the Harvard debate team is asking him to join, or so I've heard.

Trust me, he is the best at debates.

[slow clap]

On the sniffles thing, Howard Dean accused Trump of being on Coke (he was talking really fast too and very fidgety): http://jezebel.com/howard-dean-just-accused-donald-trump-of-being-on-cocai-1787117523

Funny how Howard Dean was basically dq'ed from being President b/c of "Beeeeyah!". Oh, how times change. I'm sure he's not bitter...

To the person who says Hillary has no substance - this whole campaign she's been chastised for being too policy focused and in the weeds and not able to connect with people. You can have one of those criticisms, but not both. And in comparison to Trump, the substance is off the charts. Other than building a wall (will never happen), abandoning trade agreements (will set off recession), slashing taxes on the wealthy (won't benefit anyone but the rich, but will never get approved if dems win senate anyways), and doing unconstitutional stuff, what exactly are his policies?

StarBright

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Re: This debate
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2016, 12:42:03 PM »
I want to know why the moderator asks completely different questions that are pointed directly at Trump, but doesnt do the same to Hillary?  Why did he feel it necessary to fact check trump during the debate?  There is something seriously crooked going on behind the scenes,

I can't explain your observations, but the question about the moderator's political leanings was recently raised and answered -- Lester Holt is a registered Republican.

I noticed this too (and expected harder questions since Holt is a registered R) and think it is because she can't add anything else that would make it worthwhile to bring up. When Trump brought up the emails - she basically said "Yep, I  shouldn't have done it and wouldn't do it again." She has apologized for "Super Predators". Once someone has said "Sorry" you aren't going to get interesting TV out of it anymore.

In Trump's case, if he just said "Yeah, you're right, I did originally support the Iraq invasion, but then I changed my mind." then that entire line of questioning would have disappeared.


wenchsenior

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Re: This debate
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2016, 12:42:10 PM »
Ya I think that your right, it is about the cult of personality. I am undecided but I dont think that it really matters. No matter what the media says Trump will win the white house. Ive never seen such devoted followers. The past generations of presidents have screwed this country up so bad with the rotting infrastructure and the porous border that its parted the red sea for Trump to rise like a beast and I can tell its unstoppable. I am still undecided but all of my friends are voting for Trump in Portland Oregon area. Ive never seen an election quite like this. I do think that if Trump were elected and if the flow of people coming through the border was actually slowed down it would drive wages upwards due to simple supply and demand.

If Multnomah County goes red I will fly to Portland and let you pour a beer over my head.

No kidding, right? I practically snorted coffee out my nose at the vision of Portland going for the GOP.  But really, this is just a variant on, "but how did so and so get elected? no one that I know voted for him!"

Scandium

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Telecaster

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Re: This debate
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2016, 12:48:29 PM »
Quote
"Secret" plans to defeat ISIS (give it to us now! we could use it now!)

I had a far different interpretation of this part of the debate.

Assuming Trump has a plan (though I have no confidence he does) his attitude about this seems entirely reasonable. Giving your opponent a detailed plan and posting it online seems like a dumb idea to me. The questions on this seemed to imply that it's a smart idea, which I don't really understand. My main worry isn't about "is Trump sharing a public plan about defeating ISIS?" but "does Trump have a plan."

I thought it was an okay response by Trump.  But have you seen her plan?   It is basically "work with our allies" and crap like that.  There was nothing strategic she gave away. 

MasterStache

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Re: This debate
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2016, 01:00:41 PM »
Quote
"Secret" plans to defeat ISIS (give it to us now! we could use it now!)

I had a far different interpretation of this part of the debate.

Assuming Trump has a plan (though I have no confidence he does) his attitude about this seems entirely reasonable. Giving your opponent a detailed plan and posting it online seems like a dumb idea to me. The questions on this seemed to imply that it's a smart idea, which I don't really understand. My main worry isn't about "is Trump sharing a public plan about defeating ISIS?" but "does Trump have a plan."

I thought it was an okay response by Trump.  But have you seen her plan?   It is basically "work with our allies" and crap like that.  There was nothing strategic she gave away.

Actually Trump's response is more along the lines of everything else. He has plans, they are great plans created by great people. His plans will be very successful because they are great and have a lot of good things in them. We should look forward to seeing his plans.

In all seriousness he wants boots on the ground. The current plan is working. No need to deviate by deploying troops and engaging in another lengthy deadly ground war.   

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Re: This debate
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2016, 01:15:28 PM »
Here's the backstory on Alicia Machado (who came up in the debate as "Miss Piggy") for anyone interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/us/politics/alicia-machado-donald-trump.html

Basically, she gained 12 lbs. after winning Miss Universe and Trump relentlessly fat-shamed her with name calling and took her to the gym for photo-opps while she was working out, telling people in the gym "This is somebody who likes to eat".

She was 18 years old and developed eating disorders as a result.

Trump 2016: "No Fatties Allowed"

Despicable.

wildbeast

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Re: This debate
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2016, 01:52:55 PM »
Trump won, big league.

I mean, he said the best things, the very best.

He went after Hillary like nobody else, Hillary won't even be around after he's done with her.

He showed how he loves women, just loves them. And the Hispanics, and the blacks. So much love.

Some people are saying he won the debate and did the debate so well, that the Harvard debate team is asking him to join, or so I've heard.

Trust me, he is the best at debates.

I really enjoyed this!  Thank you.  :)

wildbeast

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Re: This debate
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2016, 02:01:42 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

boarder42

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Re: This debate
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2016, 02:02:48 PM »
I don't understand the sentiment that the needle not moving is a win for Trump. Trump is behind. Really really badly. He can't win suppressing voter turnout or just rallying his own. He cannot win unless he starts pulling moderates. Hillary will gladly take 3 boring debates because no will be moved and shell keep her 3-10 point lead.

Looks like we'll have to wait for the VP debate for policy discussion. Since they're less politicized, I assume we'll actually get it there.

That was the case, not anymore. Before the debate, he's just about dead even: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/
Look at the swing states, not the national average.

But that's where his whole issue is. Winning the electoral votes is a long shot. He basically needs to run the table on the entire set of toss-up states, or somehow come up with a liberal state (virginia or Penns. but that's not happening). Assigning states that have been won by Obama/Romney by good margin and are polling the same way, I see:

Hillary - 263
Trump - 192

Toss ups:
NV - 6
CO - 9
IA - 6
OH - 18
NC - 15
FL - 29

Trump has to win 5/6 toss-ups to win. I would call that terrible odds.
EDIT: and the 1/6 has to be NV or IA. Hillary could win with trump winning OH and florida by just winning CO.

assigning states based on incumbent vs non-incumbent would be a bad metric.

boarder42

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Re: This debate
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2016, 02:04:41 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

it boggles my mind anyone can support either of them ... this is the worst presidential set of options in history. 

Kris

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Re: This debate
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2016, 02:08:39 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

it boggles my mind anyone can support either of them ... this is the worst presidential set of options in history.

It boggles my mind that anyone can compare them... as if they are both equally bad.

rocketpj

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Re: This debate
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2016, 02:09:34 PM »
I want to know why the moderator asks completely different questions that are pointed directly at Trump, but doesnt do the same to Hillary?  Why did he feel it necessary to fact check trump during the debate?  There is something seriously crooked going on behind the scenes,

Because he lied about something that the entire world knew was a lie? 

boarder42

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Re: This debate
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2016, 02:13:03 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

it boggles my mind anyone can support either of them ... this is the worst presidential set of options in history.

It boggles my mind that anyone can compare them... as if they are both equally bad.

you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt. 

wildbeast

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Re: This debate
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2016, 02:18:15 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

it boggles my mind anyone can support either of them ... this is the worst presidential set of options in history.

It boggles my mind that anyone can compare them... as if they are both equally bad.

you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt.

I used to be a cheerful optimist.  Lately, not so much.  Perhaps you're ok with a 4 yr social experiment because you're not one of the lab rats being poked and shocked for fun?

Kris

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Re: This debate
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2016, 02:18:21 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

it boggles my mind anyone can support either of them ... this is the worst presidential set of options in history.

It boggles my mind that anyone can compare them... as if they are both equally bad.

you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt.

charis

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Re: This debate
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2016, 02:22:47 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

it boggles my mind anyone can support either of them ... this is the worst presidential set of options in history.

It boggles my mind that anyone can compare them... as if they are both equally bad.

Exactly.    I don't "support" either of them.   

But Trump clearly thinks that women (among others, obviously) are basically worthless.  I am a woman.   The thought of waking up one morning to the reality that he is president and then facing my daughter and my son is almost unbearable.

And this is just a "social experiment" to some?  I am reeling at how little people think of their fellow men and women.

MrMoogle

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Re: This debate
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2016, 02:24:34 PM »
Someone whose policies you know you disagree with vs someone who you don't have any idea what they'll do...
It doesn't matter if she's experienced or not.  It's not an easy choice for me.

wenchsenior

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Re: This debate
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2016, 02:26:04 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

I'm a little scared of whites, too. And I'm white! 

In all seriousness, I tend to be pessimistic about humanity in general, but this election is making me feel revulsion for my fellow citizens like nothing before. I mean, I KNOW there has always been a roiling cauldron of tribalist rage, anti-intellectualism, misogyny, and bigotry existing mostly out of sight but side-by-side with my daily experience. Now it's starting to dawn on me that this isn't a little hot-pocket volcano, but a Yellowstone size super-volcano. It's so incredibly depressing and yes, scary.

Scandium

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Re: This debate
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2016, 02:26:40 PM »
you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt.

"I don't want some lifelong career pilot flying this aircraft! I want an outsider who isn't bound by the rules or so-called "physics", and unafraid to try something crazy and new!!"

wildbeast

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Re: This debate
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2016, 02:31:55 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

I'm a little scared of whites, too. And I'm white! 

In all seriousness, I tend to be pessimistic about humanity in general, but this election is making me feel revulsion for my fellow citizens like nothing before. I mean, I KNOW there has always been a roiling cauldron of tribalist rage, anti-intellectualism, misogyny, and bigotry existing mostly out of sight but side-by-side with my daily experience. Now it's starting to dawn on me that this isn't a little hot-pocket volcano, but a Yellowstone size super-volcano. It's so incredibly depressing and yes, scary.

Yes.  I thought things were one way, and now I see that they are not.  And I'm not sure what this means going forward. 

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Re: This debate
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2016, 03:03:33 PM »
you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt.

"I don't want some lifelong career pilot flying this aircraft! I want an outsider who isn't bound by the rules or so-called "physics", and unafraid to try something crazy and new!!"

+1 to the second quote.

I can understand the Republican obstructionist Congress dragging the reputation of all politicians through the mud. Lowest approval rating ever.

But, what should one look for as the leader of the free world?

Someone who has a long history of service and trying to help others (ideally before they became a politician).
Someone who has gotten bi-partisan support on legitimate legislation that has improved people's lives.
Someone who is intelligent.
Someone who has been through the battles and come out on the other side.
Someone who has legitimate qualified experience.
Someone who understands the issues.
Someone who has the praise of their peers (and even some of their previous opponents).
Someone who has common human decency and respects all genders, races, ethnicities, socio-economic backgrounds.
Someone who is calm and cool under pressure and has a steady hand.

One candidate checks all those boxes. The other checks none (and maybe is the opposite on all of them).

Your choice is between quite possibly the most qualified person to ever run for president and a shit sandwich (no offense to sandwiches). 

It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

I'm a little scared of whites, too. And I'm white! 

In all seriousness, I tend to be pessimistic about humanity in general, but this election is making me feel revulsion for my fellow citizens like nothing before. I mean, I KNOW there has always been a roiling cauldron of tribalist rage, anti-intellectualism, misogyny, and bigotry existing mostly out of sight but side-by-side with my daily experience. Now it's starting to dawn on me that this isn't a little hot-pocket volcano, but a Yellowstone size super-volcano. It's so incredibly depressing and yes, scary.

I'm a white male and I'm more scared of white males than any other group of Americans. Angry, unstable, hateful, and packing heat.

TexasRunner

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Re: This debate
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2016, 03:04:59 PM »
looking at the debate objectively all you can say is both lost. 

Oh really?   Independents 54-33 say she won.    Even Frank Luntz' (heavily republican marketer) focus group overwhelmingly said Clinton won.    Now you can predict it won't have any effect on voting, but you can't say she didn't win. 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/27/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-debate-poll/

http://www.vox.com/2016/9/27/13069088/hillary-clinton-won-first-presidential-debate

I just want to point out the obvious bias in the specific poll you mentioned. 

From the results:

Quote
26% of the respondents who participated in tonight's survey
identified themselves as Republicans, 41% identified
themselves as Democrats, and 33% identified themselves as
Independents.

With 2X the number of respondents being democrat (and presumably predisposed towards Clinton), it seems obvious the results would skew heavily towards her winning.  Running a true respondent-adjusted number is impossible as the results didn't break down how many of each party surveyed responded in what ways, but I would guess the numbers based on 50%r and 50%d split would result in 60% towards Trump and 41% Clinton.

Especially look at question 110, if that many people really see Trump's criticism of Hillary as legitimate, I think the initial section of the debate may have worked out pretty well for Trump.

[/s]
Edit:  Somehow my browser screwed up and wouldn't let me scroll past page 8.  Ya, it would appear she won by most peoples standards.

Carry on.  :)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 03:14:13 PM by PriestTheRunner »

Jrr85

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Re: This debate
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2016, 03:07:01 PM »
I don't think the questions were unfair or biased negatively towards Trump. I expected whoever moderated would ask pointed questions towards Trump considering his blatantly false claims and propensity to compulsively lie.

That's definitely accurately descriptive of Trump, but have you met Hillary?

I expect our leader to have at least some shred of accountability, integrity. Trumps has none, zero, zip zilch, nadda.
A shred of accountability would be nice, and that is what we will get with Trump.  People will suddenly become very interested in constitutional limits on presidential authority and checks and balances if Trump is elected.  If Hillary gets elected it will be more of the same.  Give me an awful, bad, terrible, no good president who the "elites" view as gold plated trailer trash over an awful, bad, terrible, no good president who teh "elites" view as one of their own.


I don't think Hillary shined either though. I am not a fan of either, but Trump still refuses to get even the most basic arguments correct. The birther issue, Iraq war withdrawal (which he still blames on Obama). Good fucking grief it takes a couple minutes to fact check this stuff.
  Who would you blame for Iraq war withdrawal?  Not sure what Trump claims, but Obama campaigned on withdrawing from Iraq, and then made sure to offer a Status of Forces Agreement that Iraqi's could not politically accept, and then he withdrew and took credit for it.  I don't know if Obama should be blamed for withdrawing, but he made the decision to withdraw rather than keep forces there. 

The debates are pointless though. You already know Clinton is a pretty typical politician and Trump is a shit sandwich. No one is going to change their minds. I think Trump could have brought someone out on stage, shot them and still not lost any votes. This election is such a cluster fuck!
No arguments there.

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Re: This debate
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2016, 03:14:09 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

it boggles my mind anyone can support either of them ... this is the worst presidential set of options in history.

It boggles my mind that anyone can compare them... as if they are both equally bad.

She might literally be the modern day Tammany hall.  As a Republican, I hate trump and won't vote for him, but how can you support her? One must totally lack an ethical compass. 

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Re: This debate
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2016, 03:16:46 PM »
you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt.

"I don't want some lifelong career pilot flying this aircraft! I want an outsider who isn't bound by the rules or so-called "physics", and unafraid to try something crazy and new!!"

Yeah, but why should I want the qualified pilot who wants to fly me somewhere I don't want to go, when I could instead pick the other qualified pilot who wants to fly in a better direction?

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: This debate
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2016, 03:19:24 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

I'm a little scared of whites, too. And I'm white! 

In all seriousness, I tend to be pessimistic about humanity in general, but this election is making me feel revulsion for my fellow citizens like nothing before. I mean, I KNOW there has always been a roiling cauldron of tribalist rage, anti-intellectualism, misogyny, and bigotry existing mostly out of sight but side-by-side with my daily experience. Now it's starting to dawn on me that this isn't a little hot-pocket volcano, but a Yellowstone size super-volcano. It's so incredibly depressing and yes, scary.

Just FYI, I watched the debates desperately looking for some smidgen of humility in HRC that would let me vote for her.  But it just wasn't there.  The reality of how all of you have let your contempt for the other candidate allow you to vilify the character and demean some very real and perfectly legitimate concerns of people who do not agree with you is as much to blame for her blowing the 10-20 point lead she started with to where the election is virtually tied.

I am not voting for Trump.  I am voting for a 3rd party candidate.  I have two degrees in engineering, do not regularly attend a church, have no particular issue with LGBT, I think there's probably only two genders but I don't care enough to argue about it, and I certainly don't think anyone who pays attention to what others are doing in a public restroom understands what a public restroom is for.

I absolutely despise Trump, he is an embarrassment of a human being.  But I don't need to cast aspersions to wonder why people are voting for him.  Look at who the dems ran against him.  The right thing to do in this situation, on both sides, is to vote 3rd party.  Not doing that is fine, that is your right.  Don't be smug about it though.  It isn't like you'll be electing a good person.

I watched the debate hoping Trump would challenge HRC where she is weakest so she could assuage my fears about the quality of her character.  He didn't, and she pretty much put the nails in her own coffin.

So yes, HRC "won" if by "won" you mean reassured the far left that she is indeed a bought and paid for corporate candidate.  Trump "lost" in the sense that yes, nobody who was going to vote for HRC changed their minds.

There probably are a ton of people who are just not going to show up on election day.  No matter who wins, you won't be represented or protected by the next person in the white house.  It's just picking which particular shitshow you want to see at this point.

When HRC attacked Trump on the litigation thing, his response was stupid.  The right thing to do is respond by asking her why she would be smug and brag about getting a child rapist off with time served?  I mean, everyone entitled to a vigorous defense right?  But we don't gloat.  You silently curse the incompetence of the prosecution, you vomit in your bathroom once you get home, you try to never think about it again.  You don't use it as a selling point on how great a lawyer you are.  Bad person.

I want to hear her response on that.  I want her to stand up and defend that.  She won't though, because the moderator won't ask that.  He'll ask about the birther thing, because anybody gives a flying fuck about that.  Trump is an asshole.  We know.  Way to waste time.

There's no way Trump can come out of any debate looking good.  HRC should have totally crushed him, and at the same time taken advantage of the opportunity to explain herself, if possible.  It's not possible though, because she isn't a good person.  There's not a good defense of her actions.

She'll probably win, doesn't need my vote.  If Trump wins, and that is totally possible and you should be as furious at HRC as I am for that even being possible, it will be because of a failure to distinguish the constituency from the candidate.

You all have invented a constituency that agrees with Trump, and can't understand how such a thing could exist.

It doesn't exist.

It's a mix of a bunch of different folks, rich, poor, middle class, white, non-white, people, each with their own things that are important, and likely all have one thing in common.  Somewhere, on some level, there's something in their life that sucks and no democrat is trying to fix it.  And instead of talking to them, the democrat is calling them stupid, racist, and mean.

Go fucking figure.

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Re: This debate
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2016, 03:24:29 PM »
I don't understand the sentiment that the needle not moving is a win for Trump. Trump is behind. Really really badly. He can't win suppressing voter turnout or just rallying his own. He cannot win unless he starts pulling moderates. Hillary will gladly take 3 boring debates because no will be moved and shell keep her 3-10 point lead.

Looks like we'll have to wait for the VP debate for policy discussion. Since they're less politicized, I assume we'll actually get it there.

That was the case, not anymore. Before the debate, he's just about dead even: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/
Look at the swing states, not the national average.

But that's where his whole issue is. Winning the electoral votes is a long shot. He basically needs to run the table on the entire set of toss-up states, or somehow come up with a liberal state (virginia or Penns. but that's not happening). Assigning states that have been won by Obama/Romney by good margin and are polling the same way, I see:

Hillary - 263
Trump - 192

Toss ups:
NV - 6
CO - 9
IA - 6
OH - 18
NC - 15
FL - 29

Trump has to win 5/6 toss-ups to win. I would call that terrible odds.
EDIT: and the 1/6 has to be NV or IA. Hillary could win with trump winning OH and florida by just winning CO.

assigning states based on incumbent vs non-incumbent would be a bad metric.

No incumbent is a great metric. You have to go back a quarter century before more than 25% of states change party from presidential election to the next. I marked down how the changes have progressed since George Bush Sr.

2008 -> 2012 (Obama's reelection he loses two states) Flip Red: IN, NC, NE(1)
2004 -> 2008 (Obama v McCain, Obama flips most swing states plus IN) Flip Blue: CO, NM, NV, IN, OH, VA, NC, FL, NE(1)
2000 -> 2004 (Bush Reelection, basically no change) Flip Red: IA, NM    Flip Blue: NH
1996 -> 2000 (Gore v Bush South does not back Gore, bush takes all major swings) Flip Red: NV, AZ, MO, AR, LA, FL, TN, KY, WV, OH, NH
1992 -> 1996 (Clinton Reelection, little changes) Flip Red: MT, CO, GA     Flip Blue: AZ, FL
1988 -> 1992 (Bush v Clinton, Huge dissatisfaction with Bush loses all Reagan popularity)Flip Blue: MT, CA, NV, CO, NM, MO, AR, LA, TN, GA, KY, IL, MI, OH, PA, MD, NJ, CT, DE, VT, NH, ME


What do these all mean? To me this says that unless there is a big swing election, the likelihood of things changing are small. With the Senate assumed to stay roughly 50/50 and the House to remain GOP, I doubt we'll see a big change in State presidential electors. In fact, I expect that the increasing polarization of politics will mean that the 2016 map will look almost exactly like the 2012 map. Possible exceptions that come to mind are OH, FL and NV could switch to Trump and NC to Hillary, but none of those changes would change the outcome.

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Re: This debate
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2016, 03:49:29 PM »
you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt.

"I don't want some lifelong career pilot flying this aircraft! I want an outsider who isn't bound by the rules or so-called "physics", and unafraid to try something crazy and new!!"

If that pilot was a grizzled 30 year veteran with multiple safety violations and investigations in a shoddy looking Cessna, the options aren't so clear cut.

The four year experiment will likely amount to nothing huge. Obama had 8 years and way more support on his side-nothing too earth shattering got done.* Trump has even less support and will probably actually rely on other smarter people to get shit done. Do you really think he does much in his own ventures? The day to day hardscrabble crap will be done by underlings, the ideas will come from smart guys, and he himself will have his "defining issue" which will take a whole term to get done-which is already well known-build a wall. The real wild card is going to be who has his ear.

*Actually lots got accomplished, ACA and gay rights come to mind, but nothing the right wingers raved about. People still go to church, we still have our guns and we ain't commie.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 03:51:39 PM by Johnez »

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Re: This debate
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2016, 04:09:07 PM »
you're right thats why i have to vote for the lesser of two evils and dont have a real choice.  being in a swing state my vote counts so it will go to elect trump not some lifetime politician.. i'm down for a 4 year social experiment ... he does have the end all be all power.  there are 3 branches of govt.

"I don't want some lifelong career pilot flying this aircraft! I want an outsider who isn't bound by the rules or so-called "physics", and unafraid to try something crazy and new!!"

+1 to the second quote.

I can understand the Republican obstructionist Congress dragging the reputation of all politicians through the mud. Lowest approval rating ever.

But, what should one look for as the leader of the free world?

Someone who has a long history of service and trying to help others (ideally before they became a politician).
Someone who has gotten bi-partisan support on legitimate legislation that has improved people's lives.
Someone who is intelligent.
Someone who has been through the battles and come out on the other side.
Someone who has legitimate qualified experience.
Someone who understands the issues.
Someone who has the praise of their peers (and even some of their previous opponents).
Someone who has common human decency and respects all genders, races, ethnicities, socio-economic backgrounds.
Someone who is calm and cool under pressure and has a steady hand.

One candidate checks all those boxes. The other checks none (and maybe is the opposite on all of them).

Your choice is between quite possibly the most qualified person to ever run for president and a shit sandwich (no offense to sandwiches). 

It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

I'm a little scared of whites, too. And I'm white! 

In all seriousness, I tend to be pessimistic about humanity in general, but this election is making me feel revulsion for my fellow citizens like nothing before. I mean, I KNOW there has always been a roiling cauldron of tribalist rage, anti-intellectualism, misogyny, and bigotry existing mostly out of sight but side-by-side with my daily experience. Now it's starting to dawn on me that this isn't a little hot-pocket volcano, but a Yellowstone size super-volcano. It's so incredibly depressing and yes, scary.

I'm a white male and I'm more scared of white males than any other group of Americans. Angry, unstable, hateful, and packing heat.

+1 to this.

I am also a white male and I consider myself friendly and progressive. I have no disdain towards women in power. In fact, it's LONG LONG overdue. I appreciate the unique obstacles minorities, especially African Americans, experience in society. I appreciate and support gay folks marrying the person they love, regardless of gender.

See, I view those positions as...well, nothing special. I view them as "normal." BUT...I don't think the majority of white males, especially those over 40, share these views at all. It's like they are bitter that heterosexual white males don't (entirely) rule the world anymore.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 04:11:43 PM by Nick_Miller »

MasterStache

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Re: This debate
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2016, 04:57:35 PM »
I don't think the questions were unfair or biased negatively towards Trump. I expected whoever moderated would ask pointed questions towards Trump considering his blatantly false claims and propensity to compulsively lie.

That's definitely accurately descriptive of Trump, but have you met Hillary?

No I haven't met Hillary. Nor have I met Trump. But that is irrelevant on a lying scale, in which case Hillary couldn't hold a freaking candle to Trump's massive whoppers.

I expect our leader to have at least some shred of accountability, integrity. Trumps has none, zero, zip zilch, nadda.
A shred of accountability would be nice, and that is what we will get with Trump.  People will suddenly become very interested in constitutional limits on presidential authority and checks and balances if Trump is elected.  If Hillary gets elected it will be more of the same.  Give me an awful, bad, terrible, no good president who the "elites" view as gold plated trailer trash over an awful, bad, terrible, no good president who teh "elites" view as one of their own.


I don't have the slightest clue where you get the Trump has any sort of accountability. Accountability requires being honest.

I don't think Hillary shined either though. I am not a fan of either, but Trump still refuses to get even the most basic arguments correct. The birther issue, Iraq war withdrawal (which he still blames on Obama). Good fucking grief it takes a couple minutes to fact check this stuff.
  Who would you blame for Iraq war withdrawal?  Not sure what Trump claims, but Obama campaigned on withdrawing from Iraq, and then made sure to offer a Status of Forces Agreement that Iraqi's could not politically accept, and then he withdrew and took credit for it.  I don't know if Obama should be blamed for withdrawing, but he made the decision to withdraw rather than keep forces there.

No Obama did not make the decision to withdraw. Again fact checking is your friend. The agreement was made BEFORE Obama was even in office. It's not our country. I don't give a rats ass what sort of half as agreement Obama tried to make. Invading was the worst decision Bush ever made, and withdrawing was the best. What are you going to do? Occupy the country forever? BTW, I served in Iraq not that it matters. And I voted for Bush.  I was young dumb and foolish.

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Re: This debate
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2016, 05:00:45 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.

HPstache

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Re: This debate
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2016, 05:14:13 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.

I am shaking my head too...

Jrr85

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Re: This debate
« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2016, 05:28:15 PM »
I don't think the questions were unfair or biased negatively towards Trump. I expected whoever moderated would ask pointed questions towards Trump considering his blatantly false claims and propensity to compulsively lie.

That's definitely accurately descriptive of Trump, but have you met Hillary?

No I haven't met Hillary. Nor have I met Trump. But that is irrelevant on a lying scale, in which case Hillary couldn't hold a freaking candle to Trump's massive whoppers.

I expect our leader to have at least some shred of accountability, integrity. Trumps has none, zero, zip zilch, nadda.
A shred of accountability would be nice, and that is what we will get with Trump.  People will suddenly become very interested in constitutional limits on presidential authority and checks and balances if Trump is elected.  If Hillary gets elected it will be more of the same.  Give me an awful, bad, terrible, no good president who the "elites" view as gold plated trailer trash over an awful, bad, terrible, no good president who teh "elites" view as one of their own.


I don't have the slightest clue where you get the Trump has any sort of accountability. Accountability requires being honest.


No.  It doesn't.  It just requires that other people hold you accountable.  We have a media dominated by democrats that will minimize the political pain for not holding Hillary accountable.  They will amplify the political pain for not holding Trump accountable. 


I don't think Hillary shined either though. I am not a fan of either, but Trump still refuses to get even the most basic arguments correct. The birther issue, Iraq war withdrawal (which he still blames on Obama). Good fucking grief it takes a couple minutes to fact check this stuff.
  Who would you blame for Iraq war withdrawal?  Not sure what Trump claims, but Obama campaigned on withdrawing from Iraq, and then made sure to offer a Status of Forces Agreement that Iraqi's could not politically accept, and then he withdrew and took credit for it.  I don't know if Obama should be blamed for withdrawing, but he made the decision to withdraw rather than keep forces there.

No Obama did not make the decision to withdraw. Again fact checking is your friend. The agreement was made BEFORE Obama was even in office. It's not our country. I don't give a rats ass what sort of half as agreement Obama tried to make. Invading was the worst decision Bush ever made, and withdrawing was the best. What are you going to do? Occupy the country forever? BTW, I served in Iraq not that it matters. And I voted for Bush.  I was young dumb and foolish.

Obama was president when we withdrew.  Iraqi leaders wanted him to keep 20-24k troops there.  Obama made the decision to not stay.  He wasn't bound by anything Bush planned.  Whether it was a good thing or a bad thing is debatable, but as you said, it's pretty easy to fact check.  You are already on the internet for goodness sake.  Just type in a few google searches. 

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Re: This debate
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2016, 05:34:37 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.

I'm scared of white males as well, and I'm a white woman. Should I "be a man" as well?

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Re: This debate
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2016, 05:35:30 PM »
Having been involved in SOFA, I can tell you it was Obama that kinda sorta withdrew from Iraq. Just like we closed gitmo too.

Kris

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Re: This debate
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2016, 05:35:48 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.

I am shaking my head too...

Let me guess...
You're a white male?

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Re: This debate
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2016, 05:39:28 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.

I'm scared of white males as well, and I'm a white woman. Should I "be a man" as well?

No. You should stop being hoodwinked by your ideology. Tammany hall see above. Also you should stop baiting people as you are not very good at it.

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Re: This debate
« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2016, 05:54:03 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.
Be a man?  What does that even mean?

wenchsenior

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Re: This debate
« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2016, 05:55:28 PM »
It boggles my mind that anyone would continue to support Trump after watching him last night.  I really don't get it.  It makes me feel cautious around others - specifically whites - and wonder how many people actually feel the same way he does.  I've been told to my face that I'm an inferior human being because I wasn't born white.  This happened in the workplace when I was young and unable to quit.  How sad to think that I might end up living in a country where the president, and most powerful person in the world, feels the same way.  It makes me feel very sad and a little scared for those who are young and unprotected in our society.  Is this really what our country has become?   

I'm a little scared of whites, too. And I'm white! 

In all seriousness, I tend to be pessimistic about humanity in general, but this election is making me feel revulsion for my fellow citizens like nothing before. I mean, I KNOW there has always been a roiling cauldron of tribalist rage, anti-intellectualism, misogyny, and bigotry existing mostly out of sight but side-by-side with my daily experience. Now it's starting to dawn on me that this isn't a little hot-pocket volcano, but a Yellowstone size super-volcano. It's so incredibly depressing and yes, scary.

Just FYI, I watched the debates desperately looking for some smidgen of humility in HRC that would let me vote for her.  But it just wasn't there.  The reality of how all of you have let your contempt for the other candidate allow you to vilify the character and demean some very real and perfectly legitimate concerns of people who do not agree with you is as much to blame for her blowing the 10-20 point lead she started with to where the election is virtually tied.

I am not voting for Trump.  I am voting for a 3rd party candidate.  I have two degrees in engineering, do not regularly attend a church, have no particular issue with LGBT, I think there's probably only two genders but I don't care enough to argue about it, and I certainly don't think anyone who pays attention to what others are doing in a public restroom understands what a public restroom is for.

I absolutely despise Trump, he is an embarrassment of a human being.  But I don't need to cast aspersions to wonder why people are voting for him.  Look at who the dems ran against him.  The right thing to do in this situation, on both sides, is to vote 3rd party.  Not doing that is fine, that is your right. Don't be smug about it though.  It isn't like you'll be electing a good person.

I watched the debate hoping Trump would challenge HRC where she is weakest so she could assuage my fears about the quality of her character.  He didn't, and she pretty much put the nails in her own coffin.

So yes, HRC "won" if by "won" you mean reassured the far left that she is indeed a bought and paid for corporate candidate.  Trump "lost" in the sense that yes, nobody who was going to vote for HRC changed their minds.

There probably are a ton of people who are just not going to show up on election day.  No matter who wins, you won't be represented or protected by the next person in the white house.  It's just picking which particular shitshow you want to see at this point.

When HRC attacked Trump on the litigation thing, his response was stupid.  The right thing to do is respond by asking her why she would be smug and brag about getting a child rapist off with time served?  I mean, everyone entitled to a vigorous defense right?  But we don't gloat.  You silently curse the incompetence of the prosecution, you vomit in your bathroom once you get home, you try to never think about it again.  You don't use it as a selling point on how great a lawyer you are.  Bad person.

I want to hear her response on that.  I want her to stand up and defend that.  She won't though, because the moderator won't ask that.  He'll ask about the birther thing, because anybody gives a flying fuck about that.  Trump is an asshole.  We know.  Way to waste time.

There's no way Trump can come out of any debate looking good.  HRC should have totally crushed him, and at the same time taken advantage of the opportunity to explain herself, if possible.  It's not possible though, because she isn't a good person.  There's not a good defense of her actions.

She'll probably win, doesn't need my vote.  If Trump wins, and that is totally possible and you should be as furious at HRC as I am for that even being possible, it will be because of a failure to distinguish the constituency from the candidate.

You all have invented a constituency that agrees with Trump, and can't understand how such a thing could exist.

It doesn't exist.

It's a mix of a bunch of different folks, rich, poor, middle class, white, non-white, people, each with their own things that are important, and likely all have one thing in common.  Somewhere, on some level, there's something in their life that sucks and no democrat is trying to fix it.  And instead of talking to them, the democrat is calling them stupid, racist, and mean.

Go fucking figure.

I'm not smug about it. I'm worried and depressed. I'm not a Dem, and I'm not a big HRC booster, either. I usually vote Democratic because the GOP (almost always) and Libertarians (nearly 100% always) are actively working against progress on my personal priorities, not because I think the Dems are great.

For what it's worth, I agree with your last paragraph somewhat. Neither party has served the interest of, or speaks to, a big segment of the country and a big segment of Trump voters except to either rile them to vote against the other party, only to go back to ignoring them again.

I can kind of squint and objectively make out why some people might support Trump. But his candidacy has tapped into, and is feeding, a truly ugly element of the electorate and I didn't realize just how much of it there was. And it is really disturbing.

Kris

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Re: This debate
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2016, 05:55:41 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.
Be a man?  What does that even mean?

It's what white men say when they want to belittle other people for not being like them.

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Re: This debate
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2016, 06:00:40 PM »
Apparently racism is alive and well.

Kris

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Re: This debate
« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2016, 06:08:28 PM »
Apparently racism is alive and well.

Well, sexism, at least, judging from "be a man"...

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Re: This debate
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2016, 06:09:04 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Why are you shaking your head? As a white male myself, is there any group out there more likely to murder me than other white males?

dividendman

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Re: This debate
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2016, 06:10:33 PM »
I feel sorry for all of you living in fear. I don't fear white men or black men or gay men or men who sing out loud while walking down the street. I don't fear women either.... come to think of it, I don't fear any physically identifiable group of people.

I do fear murderers and psychopaths I think.

Why are you all so fearful?

wenchsenior

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Re: This debate
« Reply #99 on: September 27, 2016, 06:11:14 PM »
You are scared of white males? Seriously? Holy smokes. This is why our country is falling apart. Get it together.

I couldn't be shaking my head more. 

Im not voting for either of these idiots, but for goodness sakes be a man.

I'm scared of white males as well, and I'm a white woman. Should I "be a man" as well?

No. You should stop being hoodwinked by your ideology. Tammany hall see above. Also you should stop baiting people as you are not very good at it.

Says the person who says "be a man".