The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: GuitarStv on November 15, 2022, 10:18:01 AM
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Little background for this story will be necessary - I like my neighbourhood quite a bit, but one thing that has kind of bothered me over the 10+ years that we've lived here is that it's often very noisy. And I've traced the noise down to a single thing/group of people.
There appear to be some people who run a business where they'll set up a large tent in the driveway (occasionally back yard) of a house. This is a big white tent, covered on all four sides with a door. Once this tent is set up, they bring in a very loud PA system and a drum kit. Then for one to three nights in a row they'll blast this PA, starting at around 4pm, and then (if left uninterrupted) finishing usually around 5am.
Now, I've been around loud sounds and live music before - and please believe me when I tell you . . . this is quite a bit too loud for a residential neighbourhood. It's a setup that would be too loud for most bars/clubs. The last time that the tent of assholes made an appearance was last summer. It was about two blocks away from our house. With all the windows and doors in shut, the music and drumming were both loud enough that you have to raise your voice to be heard while talking in our home. It's extremely difficult to sleep when this occurs. My son can't sleep at all, and my wife and I can only sleep while wearing earplugs.
I have talked to some of my neighbours about this music, and they tend to be split . . . a few of them see no problem with blasting music all night and others have said that they're afraid of drawing the ire of their neighbours if they complain.
So in the past I've gone down and talked to the people having these parties. This involves me needing to go to their door and pound for a while (the music is too loud for anyone to be outside where the PA is set up and the drummer is drumming away and they usually can't hear a doorbell or knock). Then I have to scream over the music asking them to turn it down. Then they'll turn it down for 10 - 15 minutes and raise the music back up once I've gone away. So at this point, go home and call the police . . . and usually that will get them to stop, although once two calls to the police were necessary. This isn't really ideal, but at least I could get the music to stop by midnight or one in the morning usually.
Now, there have been some unfortunate developments in Toronto regarding noise complaints in 2019. The Toronto Police Services were directed not to respond to noise as a priority any more. Instead, they will direct your call to Toronto 311. Toronto 311 will not respond to noise complaints about a party, as they are not trained or equipped to deal with security problems that they might encounter. I discovered all this one night a couple summers ago while spending four hours on the phone being sent back and forth between the two groups. I've later confirmed that this is the case - to the best of my knowledge, Toronto no longer polices noise from parties.
So this morning I see that the tent of assholes has been erected two houses down from me. Short of Molotov cocktails before things get kicked off, can anyone think of anything that I can do or steps that I can take to allow my family to sleep this weekend? I don't think my son will be able to sleep with earplugs in.
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stink bombs?
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How are they going to know it was you who set the tent on fire?
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Now, there have been some unfortunate developments in Toronto regarding noise complaints in 2019. The Toronto Police Services were directed not to respond to noise as a priority any more.
Who directed this? Can you organize a pressure campaign against them, or whatever elected official they're under? Surely many/most of your neighbors share your frustration.
I don't understand cities that ignore QoL issues... if we want to save the climate we need more people to live in cities, but allowing jerks to disturb the peace with noise pollution ultimately drives people out of cities. It's the same issue with vehicles with loud exhaust, cities need to be proactive in citing these folks for the sake of everyone that lives in the area.
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If you can't beat them... join them. Ask for an invite to their party!
In all seriousness, it's crazy to think your city won't police something like this. We have sound soothers on full blast in all of our kid's rooms every night, that helps cover up a lot of noise, but we also don't have crazy parties two houses down so I don't know if that would be enough.
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Record it and try and get local news to show up or at least cover it with your recording. I'd think a video where you're screaming to turn it down and your neighbor still cannot hear you would make for good content on the news. If you can figure out the business here, follow them around - seems like this must be happening in other neighborhoods around Toronto too since it is relatively long between it hitting your neighborhood? Get the whole city up in arms and demanding this be shut down.
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It seems strange to me that this same (?) group of assholes is setting up at multiple houses in your vicinity... what exactly are they? A band? A pop up night club? Whatever they are doing must be extremely popular if they are getting invited to set up at multiple houses over the years in the same general vicinity, either that or they are cold calling asking for venues for whatever they are doing in a neighborhood where they have had success? Very bizarre. Could you try a different angle for shutting them down besides noise? Are they collecting money and not paying tax? Serving alcohol, possibly to minors? Service food without a food handlers permit?
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Print the Toronto Noise Bylaws and drop a copy in their mailbox.
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Hire someone to deliver a truck load of manure to their driveway, right in front of the tent.
Put a fresh fish in a few of the speakers. Tape one under any tables as well.
Wire cutters.
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If this is some sort of a business, they need a license for that and possibly a liquor license as well. Contact city hall licensing department to inquire/complain.
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I really wish had a magic fix for this sort of situation.. I've had a similar problem with loud music the last couple of years except it's local businesses playing inordinately loud music and no one will enforce noise ordinances any more. One bar plays loud music really late (not crazy loud, but definitely too loud - they have speakers out on the sidewalk for their outdoor dining area); and one restaurant plays insanely loud music outside every Sunday from June through October - a nightclub style live music stage setup with speakers, stage monitors, etc. right outside my apartment building. Loud enough to bleed through earplugs, there's really no escaping it. I've tried contacting everyone I can think of (city council, 311, etc.) and I haven't had any luck. I know others in my building have also complained. The person who owns the restaurant is politically connected and friends with the mayor and the governor, so... :-(
My next thought is to maybe buy a decibel meter and take photos to submit as evidence so that someone will take it more seriously and not just assume I'm being a little whiny. But I hate to waste money if they'll end up ignoring me anyway.
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It seems strange to me that this same (?) group of assholes is setting up at multiple houses in your vicinity... what exactly are they? A band? A pop up night club? Whatever they are doing must be extremely popular if they are getting invited to set up at multiple houses over the years in the same general vicinity, either that or they are cold calling asking for venues for whatever they are doing in a neighborhood where they have had success? Very bizarre. Could you try a different angle for shutting them down besides noise? Are they collecting money and not paying tax? Serving alcohol, possibly to minors? Service food without a food handlers permit?
That's an idea. It seems like it's some sort of catering/entertainment business. The set up is done for weddings, birthdays, Diwali, Holi, etc. Our neighbourhood is largely East Indian, and there are several very large interrelated families in the neighbourhood (about thirty or forty of houses nearby are related to one another). I'm not sure if the "caterers" are part of this relative network or not though - they may just be doing it for friends. I'd be surprised if any money changing hands was above board.
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My next thought is to maybe buy a decibel meter and take photos to submit as evidence so that someone will take it more seriously and not just assume I'm being a little whiny. But I hate to waste money if they'll end up ignoring me anyway.
I have a high quality decibel meter (use it to set up equipment for live shows) and have taken readings. It was peaking at about 110 dB in my back yard in the summer when I was having my call bounced between the city and police department. Last I checked, the city rule required under 80 dB in residential areas - but it's all theoretical since adherence depends on the honour system.
Nobody cared at all.
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Now, there have been some unfortunate developments in Toronto regarding noise complaints in 2019. The Toronto Police Services were directed not to respond to noise as a priority any more.
Who directed this? Can you organize a pressure campaign against them, or whatever elected official they're under? Surely many/most of your neighbors share your frustration.
This was part of a whole series of police reforms that happened in 2018. Toronto Police Services has a long history of racial discrimination and racist arrests and they had had a particularly bad year with some very public oopsies.
Most of the party noise complaints go out against people of colour. No longer responding was seen as a way for TPS to prevent confrontations with this group and improve relations.
That's the background although they didn't explicitly mention the race thing in the specific reform to how police regard noise complaints is listed in the 2018 here - https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ls/bgrd/backgroundfile-113598.pdf (https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ls/bgrd/backgroundfile-113598.pdf)
This reclassified any instance of noise that is one-off (like a party, or a person playing drums) to be considered 'Low Effect' and no longer require a police response to investigate.
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Since you know this is coming in a few hours, maybe a heads-up to a local journalist or your local councilperson's office?
As part of a bigger story about the change in service for noise complaints. Hey, here's a perfect example of what's happened....
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Get some large speakers and out noise them, deep bass dubstep usually works.
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Since you know this is coming in a few hours, maybe a heads-up to a local journalist or your local councilperson's office?
As part of a bigger story about the change in service for noise complaints. Hey, here's a perfect example of what's happened....
I've tried a couple newspapers, but they don't seem interested in doing a story about a house party. I will email my councilor though, that's a good idea.
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Get some large speakers and out noise them, deep bass dubstep usually works.
I have seriously considered setting up one of my guitar amps pointed in their direction and just leaving a guitar in front of it to feedback. Might not drown out the music completely, but it would certainly be loud and obnoxious. The thing is, that doesn't help anything. My kid's still not going to get to sleep and it'll just make them want to do something more awful.
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When you purchase a house or are a a tenant of a property you are given a "bundle of rights". This differs by state but for example, one of those rights is called right to "quiet enjoyment". So essentially they are violating your rights by not allowing you to enjoy your property. I would look into what rights you have and who can reach out to locally to help.
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Do you have any family or friends you can stay with for the duration? It sounds like you have very little backup from the government and getting my kids to sleep is essential for sanity.
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Do you have any family or friends you can stay with for the duration? It sounds like you have very little backup from the government and getting my kids to sleep is essential for sanity.
Nope. I guess we could rent a hotel room if this goes on for multiple days.
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Toronto bylaw will not respond to noise as an emergency service, however the noise bylaw shows that a sound level exceeding 50 dB(A) or 65 dB(C) from 11 PM to 7AM is not allowed. Video the noise recording (10 minutes), the source (your neighbour's tent) and submit to Toronto bylaw.
If you get a shrug, escalate to your councillor.
If you get a shrug again, escalate to the provincial ombudsman.
Bylaw: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_591.pdf
Enforcement standard: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/public-notices-bylaws/bylaw-enforcement/noise/
Or escalate to a lawyer. At any point. Other people will thank you. (Maybe neighbours will contribute to the cost in a class action sort of suit.)
My dad lives in the same sort of neighbourhood and has to listen to 2 days of loudspeaker shouting and music every Diwali. But at least they cut out at 10 pm.
I'm generally a pretty tolerant person, but noise makes me insane.
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I'm not in Toronto or even Canada, but if you can document that they are breaking a law that has impacted your quality of life, could you bring a civil suit against the owners of the property? Take some days off work after their parties due to 'pain and suffering' to show economic loss.
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Toronto bylaw will not respond to noise as an emergency service, however the noise bylaw shows that a sound level exceeding 50 dB(A) or 65 dB(C) from 11 PM to 7AM is not allowed. Video the noise recording (10 minutes), the source (your neighbour's tent) and submit to Toronto bylaw.
If you get a shrug, escalate to your councillor.
If you get a shrug again, escalate to the provincial ombudsman.
Bylaw: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_591.pdf
Enforcement standard: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/public-notices-bylaws/bylaw-enforcement/noise/
I didn't get a shrug.
Toronto Police services (non-emergency number) told me they wouldn't send someone out for a noisy party. It would need to be more than three nights for them to come by, but I should contact Toronto 311.
Toronto 311 told me that I could be assigned a bylaw officer, but he wouldn't be available during non-business hours. The bylaw enforcement officer I was assigned came by during the day, a week after the complaint was made to investigate. Since there was no noise at that time, he concluded that the problem was resolved and that there was no need for any other action. I protested, and he said that the city doesn't prioritize non-recurring noise.
So, no shrugs. Just nobody who will do anything.
From your link, it sounds like they did everything by the book:
The City does not respond directly to complaints about isolated events that are unlikely to recur or occur very infrequently, noise that is not in violation of the Noise Bylaw, or issues under the jurisdiction of another agency. Data from complaints of this nature will not lead to formal investigations but will instead be logged and/or referred to by other agencies.
Bylaw enforcement officers also do not respond to demonstrations, noisy parties or noise from people acting disorderly, such as yelling, screaming and fighting. To report these types of noise, call the Toronto Police Service non-emergency number at 416-808-2222. For emergencies, call 911.
What happens after you submit a noise complaint?
The goal is to resolve the issue and achieve compliance with the bylaw. A bylaw enforcement officer will be assigned to respond to your complaints and will contact you according to the assessed priority of the complaints.
Each issue is addressed on case-by-case basis to make sure reasonable, fair and appropriate actions are taken. If there is a possible noise bylaw violation, the officer may conduct an investigation, which could include education, mediation, and/or enforcement actions.
I have contacted my councilor and am waiting for a response, and will try the ombudsman if that doesn't pan out . . . but it's really looking like there isn't going to be any recourse to actually prevent/end the noise, which I find very frustrating. I feel like this is a simple problem that should be minimally inconvenient to resolve.
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You haven't spoken to a lawyer?
Just because law enforcement won't enforce doesn't mean they aren't liable for breaking the law.
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This was part of a whole series of police reforms that happened in 2018. Toronto Police Services has a long history of racial discrimination and racist arrests and they had had a particularly bad year with some very public oopsies.
Most of the party noise complaints go out against people of colour. No longer responding was seen as a way for TPS to prevent confrontations with this group and improve relations.
That's the background although they didn't explicitly mention the race thing in the specific reform to how police regard noise complaints is listed in the 2018 here - https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ls/bgrd/backgroundfile-113598.pdf (https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/ls/bgrd/backgroundfile-113598.pdf)
This reclassified any instance of noise that is one-off (like a party, or a person playing drums) to be considered 'Low Effect' and no longer require a police response to investigate.
You have a political problem that can't be fixed without getting involved in local government.
Start talking with folks in the neighborhood. If enough people are annoyed by the noise then start an advocacy group, something like Quiet Neighborhoods Toronto or whatever. Sites like NextDoor can be useful for getting things rolling. Put up flyers in the neighborhood and get people to join.
Document noise pollution incidents. Time, date, duration, decibels, location. Get trusted group members to enter this data. Display it on an online map. You want to demonstrate that these are not one-off instances.
Get enough people in the group and then you can start asking councilors (especially during elections) things like "what's your position on enforcing the noise ordinance?"
Given the history involved, you'll need to make sure prominent members of the group are a representative cross section of the neighborhoods. If it's just a bunch of old white people then you'll be easily dismissed as a bunch of racists. And you'll need to actively reject/remove actual racists from the group.
It's a lot of work, but it can be done. Or learn to live with the noise or vote with your feet and move to a city that enforces noise ordinances.
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Record the sound and video when it happens. Then, go out to the mayor's house and play the noise at the same decibel level. You may need bigger speakers or something. You'll probably get arrested, but the news organizations may pay attention at that point. Put it all out on Youtube.
Sounds like garbage people in your neighborhood if they're that inconsiderate of their surroundings. Good luck. We have lots of teenagers in our neighborhood that are loud in the summertime but even they generally turn things down around 10pm every night. I'm in a red city in America though so the cops generally do their job in breaking that stuff up, but it rarely gets to that point.
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I'm not in Toronto or even Canada, but if you can document that they are breaking a law that has impacted your quality of life, could you bring a civil suit against the owners of the property? Take some days off work after their parties due to 'pain and suffering' to show economic loss.
Civil litigation would only proceed as a last resort here, and I wonder what lawyer would take this on. Damages would be hard to prove/set. Also the question of who carries the burden of tort.
I am not a lawyer, but reaching back to my ethics courses in College, a civil suit carries 4 elements to be proven:
The accused had a duty, in most personal injury cases, to act in a way that did not cause you to become injured.
The accused committed a breach of that duty.
An injury occurred to you.
The breach of duty was the proximate cause of your injury.
What burden of duty was carried to prevent this noise?
Who carries the burden? The other family? The City? The folks who made walls and windows that don't block the noise?
What injury occurred?
Once that is determined, who was injured, and what was the cost of the injury? What dollar figure can be put on the cost of a child missing a night of sleep? Even a neighborhood of folks coming together to lay the suit - how do you set a dollar amount on the disturbance of the noise to measure injury?
And then, once that is done, you need to convince a judge that intermittent neighbourhood parties are not a frivolous suit before the court.
I'm not sure that there are a lot of lawyers out there that would take this on. I may be wrong.
EDIT: A google search turned this up - there is your path to litigation. https://bc.ctvnews.ca/lawsuit-against-noisy-neighbours-nets-frustrated-b-c-condo-owners-2-500-in-damages-1.5497922
Canadians tend to be extremely lawsuit shy, so I've personally found legal letters to be a very impactful tool when dealing with conflict up here.
It doesn't really matter a lot of the time what their actual liability is, if they know they are breaking a rule and someone sends a legal letter, your average Canadian will shit themselves and cut the crap out.
If they don't, then not much is likely to stop them.
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If you do decide to "fight back" with noise of your own i would recommend the band The Melvins.
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If this is a company of some sort that organizes these parties, it seems like they would have some liability, and also that they may be operating without proper licensing. It seems odd that this same situation would pop up in various places. Is there any way to dig around and find out who might be setting up these tent-parties?
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So I'm not familiar with Canadian law, but given it's similarity to US law, I'm assuming you can sue for a restraining order. Because this is time limited and a lawsuit takes too long, you'd need immediate court action to restrain the illegal action while the question is being litigated. Could be tough to do, but if you want to pony up a small retainer for a local lawyer, it's definitely not impossible to get someone to do it and do it fast in this kind of circumstance.
Law enforcement is generally required to enforce restraining orders, so you wouldn't have to ask the cops to do anything about the noise, you'd call them to tell them someone under a restraining order you hold is violating it and you need them to come enforce the order.
Otherwise a hotel sounds like a good option (or maybe a combination of those two things, if you want a short and long term solution).
And if worse comes to worst, I'd recommend blasting your own music from 5am to 10pm or whenever they get started. Presumably the people in the house hosting this event would like to sleep at some point, and perhaps they'll be more amenable to your complaints if they understand how it feels to not be able to sleep during the hours they are trying to do so?
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http://www.sengpielaudio.com/NIOSH-OSHA-Standards.gif
I hate to say it but the health and well being of your family are being compromised. I personally would have to stand up for myself if the law would not, just as though you were being assaulted. I'd be damn careful to keep myself safe, and not get caught, but no way in hell I'd let that last more than one night.
The sound levels you are talking about are EXTREME and should be taken, quite literally, as assault. It's loud enough to cause hearing damage in a rather short time.
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http://www.sengpielaudio.com/NIOSH-OSHA-Standards.gif
I hate to say it but the health and well being of your family are being compromised. I personally would have to stand up for myself if the law would not, just as though you were being assaulted. I'd be damn careful to keep myself safe, and not get caught, but no way in hell I'd let that last more than one night.
The sound levels you are talking about are EXTREME and should be taken, quite literally, as assault. It's loud enough to cause hearing damage in a rather short time.
110 dB was peak - not sustained and was from when I was measuring from my back yard. It was probably averaging in the 90s, sometimes dipping down to 80 dB. It actually hurts to be outside at those levels. This is why there's nobody is actually in the tent of assholes listening to the music (beyond the one drummer, whom I'm assuming is at least partially deaf). Inside our house with all the doors and windows shut it seemed to be ranging between 50 - 65. Still loud enough to be annoying as hell, but not going to make anyone lose their hearing.
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Time to find yourself a family of skunks.
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http://www.sengpielaudio.com/NIOSH-OSHA-Standards.gif
I hate to say it but the health and well being of your family are being compromised. I personally would have to stand up for myself if the law would not, just as though you were being assaulted. I'd be damn careful to keep myself safe, and not get caught, but no way in hell I'd let that last more than one night.
The sound levels you are talking about are EXTREME and should be taken, quite literally, as assault. It's loud enough to cause hearing damage in a rather short time.
110 dB was peak - not sustained and was from when I was measuring from my back yard. It was probably averaging in the 90s, sometimes dipping down to 80 dB. It actually hurts to be outside at those levels. This is why there's nobody is actually in the tent of assholes listening to the music (beyond the one drummer, whom I'm assuming is at least partially deaf). Inside our house with all the doors and windows shut it seemed to be ranging between 50 - 65. Still loud enough to be annoying as hell, but not going to make anyone lose their hearing.
Continuous 80db can already cause damage. In Germany workers are required to wear protective gear from 85db on. If it's in the 90s it's definitely dangerous. And you are not even the closest from your neighbors??
If it would be once that this happens becasue someone has their 100th birthday and can't hear anymore, I guess you could keep inside for that day. But several times?
You can no longer go outside your house because someone is threatening your health if you do. That sounds like police stuff for me. Maybe report that instead of "loud party" ;)
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Is there an organisation in your city that deals with health and safety at work? The noise levels you are reporting are a health hazard both to the DJ and the people attending the party, and both are likely to be covered by noise at work regulations (safety at work regulations usually include visitors to a place of work as well as the workers).
It's quite likely that the people who enforce health and safety at work are different from the people who deal with neighbourhood noise. If so then I think your best bet would be to set up a meeting with them in office hours, take along your evidence of unsafe levels of noise at work. Safety at work regulations typically cover visitors to a place of work as well as workers, so even if the DJ is wearing headphones the guests won't be and so there will be a breach of regulations. Your aim at the meeting will be to get a health and safety at work inspector to agree to come out next time there is a noisy party in your neighbourhood.
I think you are right that a DJ that ignores noise limits to that level is quite probably in breach of other laws as well. If you can get contact details for the people who are putting on these parties professionally a word with the taxman might be an idea.
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How about talking to their homeowners insurance company? I had to do that for a remodeling company that was ignoring my calls after getting my down payment, and boy, they snapped to it after getting a call from their insurer that I was about to make a claim.
Maybe contact your own homeowners insurance to get their advice on how to proceed?
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Is there an organisation in your city that deals with health and safety at work? The noise levels you are reporting are a health hazard both to the DJ and the people attending the party, and both are likely to be covered by noise at work regulations (safety at work regulations usually include visitors to a place of work as well as the workers).
It's quite likely that the people who enforce health and safety at work are different from the people who deal with neighbourhood noise. If so then I think your best bet would be to set up a meeting with them in office hours, take along your evidence of unsafe levels of noise at work. Safety at work regulations typically cover visitors to a place of work as well as workers, so even if the DJ is wearing headphones the guests won't be and so there will be a breach of regulations. Your aim at the meeting will be to get a health and safety at work inspector to agree to come out next time there is a noisy party in your neighbourhood.
I think you are right that a DJ that ignores noise limits to that level is quite probably in breach of other laws as well. If you can get contact details for the people who are putting on these parties professionally a word with the taxman might be an idea.
There's no DJ. They just set up the PA system outside and then turn on a playlist while the drummer plays along.
Yes, there is a city organization that is tasked with dealing with loud noises . . . but they will not come out to loud parties because of security concerns (they don't want to get beat up). The police will not come out to parties for noise as part of a policy that was implemented in 2018. So we're in a situation where there are laws, but nobody willing to enforce them.
I've been thinking a lot about this.
I guess that I could report that I heard something that sounds like a violent fight to the police - then they would come out immediately. We have had shootings at large parties in this neighbourhood, so they're likely to treat the complaint seriously . . . but I don't like to do something like that for noise though - 911 is an emergency service.
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How about talking to their homeowners insurance company? I had to do that for a remodeling company that was ignoring my calls after getting my down payment, and boy, they snapped to it after getting a call from their insurer that I was about to make a claim.
Maybe contact your own homeowners insurance to get their advice on how to proceed?
How would I find out who their insurers are?
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It's been a while but I think I found it on the business records for that company via our state Corporation Commission website.
But for an individual homeowner the fastest way would be to ask your own homeowners insurance to see if they can help you find it. Best outcome for you would be if the home is owned by a registered company and it's being rented out - that company doesn't want to do any payouts on claims or even get any black marks from their insurer. Even if it's an individual I expect they'd change their behavior if it means their insurer will increase their rates or even drop them.
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Hire someone to deliver a truck load of manure to their driveway, right in front of the tent.
Put a fresh fish in a few of the speakers. Tape one under any tables as well.
Wire cutters.
I like the way you think ;-)
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Time to find yourself a family of skunks.
I like that solution best...
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Is there an organisation in your city that deals with health and safety at work? The noise levels you are reporting are a health hazard both to the DJ and the people attending the party, and both are likely to be covered by noise at work regulations (safety at work regulations usually include visitors to a place of work as well as the workers).
It's quite likely that the people who enforce health and safety at work are different from the people who deal with neighbourhood noise. If so then I think your best bet would be to set up a meeting with them in office hours, take along your evidence of unsafe levels of noise at work. Safety at work regulations typically cover visitors to a place of work as well as workers, so even if the DJ is wearing headphones the guests won't be and so there will be a breach of regulations. Your aim at the meeting will be to get a health and safety at work inspector to agree to come out next time there is a noisy party in your neighbourhood.
I think you are right that a DJ that ignores noise limits to that level is quite probably in breach of other laws as well. If you can get contact details for the people who are putting on these parties professionally a word with the taxman might be an idea.
There's no DJ. They just set up the PA system outside and then turn on a playlist while the drummer plays along.
Yes, there is a city organization that is tasked with dealing with loud noises . . . but they will not come out to loud parties because of security concerns (they don't want to get beat up). The police will not come out to parties for noise as part of a policy that was implemented in 2018. So we're in a situation where there are laws, but nobody willing to enforce them.
I've been thinking a lot about this.
I guess that I could report that I heard something that sounds like a violent fight to the police - then they would come out immediately. We have had shootings at large parties in this neighbourhood, so they're likely to treat the complaint seriously . . . but I don't like to do something like that for noise though - 911 is an emergency service.
Someone owns the tent and PA system and takes bookings. If they are there then they are at work. If the drummer pays the drummer is at work. The person who turns on the PA system is probably at work. The people I'm suggesting you talk to are not the people who deal (or refuse to deal) with noisy parties but the people who deal with the conditions of workers, so it looks to me on a quick google that instead of going to Toronto city you should be going to Ontario State and asking for an occupational health and safety inspection.
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It sounds like tips or complaints to insurance companies and the Canadian equivalent of OSHA or the IRS are your best bets. Having worked in noisy factory environments and seen how OSHA operates, I think the worker safety complaint is your best bet as it will be a crack down on the people who actually run the business which may prevent future parties. Ask the worker safety people to come on whatever day you think they will be holding the event as you have reason to be concerned about hearing damage?
Meanwhile, here is a quote for you:
"White people are always ruining our events"
- relative of the bride in the movie Bend it Like Beckham
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Does your jurisdiction require permits for large assemblies? Are they getting permits for this large event? You might get more traction with that approach. Also, most City Council (or equivalent) meetings have a time for public comments on any topic. You might consider making an appeal to them. A few people have used this method very effectively where I live. The cops don't get voted in, but your City Council (or equivalent) sure does.
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I've been thinking about this because there's was pretty big Indian population in my previous neighborhood, and so of course my family is friendly with our neighbors. Although your instinct in the moment is understandably to be irritated because you can't sleep, I wonder if this is just a cultural misunderstanding? Perhaps honey instead of vinegar approach would work?
I write this because the family from India who lived near us was horrified and immediately changed their behavior when apparently they got a letter from the community HOA board (not because of me, I don't care and tended to ignore any letters I got because a couple of years our HOA board was run by nutters.) They wanted to fit in and did not want to be perceived as bad neighbors. Crazy as it sounds, I doubt that the people throwing these parties realize they are being bad Canadian neighbors. I've never been to the country of India, but I have frames of references of cultures where very loud music until 4 am is considered pretty normal depending upon the occasion. Havana, South Beach (Miami), New Orleans, and Prato, Italy, where I kid you not there was an impromptu marching band going up and down both the main streets and little side street until the wee hours every night we were there. I don't know if it was some sort of festival week in Prato or what, because I've never seen anything quite like that, but I kind of got the vibe that dressing up to go hang out on the little streets and people watching and having random bands walking around was the vibe in the neighborhood. I've heard of similar situation in parts of Portugal as well if you are in a certain neighborhood at a certain time of year where there are months long parties all night. Of course most of the neighborhoods in these cities are quiet at night, but the "party zone" is the party zone, and everyone just seems to accept it as normal. And I think some cultures also accept that a random celebration party like a milestone birthday or wedding can be very loud for very long.
In my previous neighborhood with the bigger Indian-American population, there were some GIANT parties! I went to a party for a one-year-old boy that was the biggest house party I've ever seen apart from another wedding with 500 guests. The birthday party had enough food to feed everyone attending for a week. The music was blaring at various parties, but not so loud we all hated it and not late into the night . . . the latter may be because my city does pretty aggressively uphold noise ordinances; even concerts at the concert venues are definitely over by 11 pm.
My point is that the volume of the music is more likely an issue brought by the company that owns the DJ/drummer company, who are obviously deaf. If you start becoming close friend with the families and actually get invites to some of these bashes, then you might have more influence on the hosts that what they are doing is a bit counter to Canadian cultural expectations (to be diplomatic about it).
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I agree, there's a cultural thing going on. I generally have friendly relations with my neighbours but it's tricky to do much more than that as they don't speak English beyond a few broken words.
They had their party with drummer, food truck, and blasting music on Thursday. There wasn't any noise last night, so hopefully it's over (although the tent is still set up). My city councilor has said that she will bring noise enforcement up in the next council meeting, but there's nothing she can do at the moment.
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+ 1 about talking neighbors. If not have HOA admin send a notice.
Playing is music too loud through out the night is not normal anywhere.
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Any chance the gathering of people is such that it presents a risk in the event of a fire? I guess what I’m thinking is along the lines of building capacity limits and the possibility of calling the fire department.
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If you do decide to "fight back" with noise of your own i would recommend the band The Melvins.
And a band that they have a common bassist with, Mudhoney.
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I would call 911 and say there’s a fight every time they play the music past 10 until you can get someone in charge to take action.
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The wedding celebrations appear to be over now. On Sunday they had a lot of people over and two food trucks. Cars blocked access to our whole court, so I called the fire department who sent someone out and ticketed about 70 - 80 vehicles, which also ended up shutting down the music.
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Yay for the fire department. Sometimes it’s the risk for obstruction to exits or for emergency vehicles that gets the attention you need. So glad this option worked!
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My next thought is to maybe buy a decibel meter and take photos to submit as evidence so that someone will take it more seriously and not just assume I'm being a little whiny. But I hate to waste money if they'll end up ignoring me anyway.
I have a high quality decibel meter (use it to set up equipment for live shows) and have taken readings. It was peaking at about 110 dB in my back yard in the summer when I was having my call bounced between the city and police department. Last I checked, the city rule required under 80 dB in residential areas - but it's all theoretical since adherence depends on the honour system.
Nobody cared at all.
I'm sorry to hear that peace, order, and good government is dead in Toronto.
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The wedding celebrations appear to be over now. On Sunday they had a lot of people over and two food trucks. Cars blocked access to our whole court, so I called the fire department who sent someone out and ticketed about 70 - 80 vehicles, which also ended up shutting down the music.
Nice.
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Fuck yeah.
Shut them down.
You're describing a personal hell of mine so good to see when even a little win happens.
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Bad neighbors can quickly ruin your quality of life. Sorry to hear this happened to you and I hope you and the good neighbors can prevail if it happens again.
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I get that there are probably some cultural differences, but it's really hard for me to imagine this behaviour being welcome in any society.
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I get that there are probably some cultural differences, but it's really hard for me to imagine this behaviour being welcome in any society.
It works just fine as long as all your neighbours are of the same culture and are invited to the party. (See also student halls of residence.)
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If you really believe maybe this may be a cultural misunderstanding, perhaps leave an anonymous note explaining the city noise ordinance (in basic terms) and asking them to please be a good neighbor and refrain from excessively loud parties and parties after quiet hours. Maybe they won't care, but if it is truly just a case of not understanding the cultural (and legal) expectations, it might help. I don't see how if could hurt.
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If you really believe maybe this may be a cultural misunderstanding, perhaps leave an anonymous note explaining the city noise ordinance (in basic terms) and asking them to please be a good neighbor and refrain from excessively loud parties and parties after quiet hours. Maybe they won't care, but if it is truly just a case of not understanding the cultural (and legal) expectations, it might help. I don't see how if could hurt.
In other circumstances I would agree, but probably not immediately after shutting their party and getting 70 to 80 cars ticketed. There may be a better opportunity for outreach when things have settled back down.
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If you really believe maybe this may be a cultural misunderstanding, perhaps leave an anonymous note explaining the city noise ordinance (in basic terms) and asking them to please be a good neighbor and refrain from excessively loud parties and parties after quiet hours. Maybe they won't care, but if it is truly just a case of not understanding the cultural (and legal) expectations, it might help. I don't see how if could hurt.
In other circumstances I would agree, but probably not immediately after shutting their party and getting 70 to 80 cars ticketed. There may be a better opportunity for outreach when things have settled back down.
Seems to me the offenders just received 70-80 such notes, courtesy of the city.
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If you really believe maybe this may be a cultural misunderstanding, perhaps leave an anonymous note explaining the city noise ordinance (in basic terms) and asking them to please be a good neighbor and refrain from excessively loud parties and parties after quiet hours. Maybe they won't care, but if it is truly just a case of not understanding the cultural (and legal) expectations, it might help. I don't see how if could hurt.
In other circumstances I would agree, but probably not immediately after shutting their party and getting 70 to 80 cars ticketed. There may be a better opportunity for outreach when things have settled back down.
They got notes about parking violations, not noise ordinances.
Seems to me the offenders just received 70-80 such notes, courtesy of the city.
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What a creative solution! Just keep calling the fire department every time this happens. Eventually the neighbors will learn. And it’s worth it to the department because they can make a lot of money in fines on one call.
It’s also winter in Toronto, so highly unlikely that people will take public transportation to avoid driving just to continue partying in this particular neighborhood. Hopefully they will move their their partying elsewhere.
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If you really believe maybe this may be a cultural misunderstanding, perhaps leave an anonymous note explaining the city noise ordinance (in basic terms) and asking them to please be a good neighbor and refrain from excessively loud parties and parties after quiet hours. Maybe they won't care, but if it is truly just a case of not understanding the cultural (and legal) expectations, it might help. I don't see how if could hurt.
In other circumstances I would agree, but probably not immediately after shutting their party and getting 70 to 80 cars ticketed. There may be a better opportunity for outreach when things have settled back down.
Seems to me the offenders just received 70-80 such notes, courtesy of the city.
They got notes about parking violations, not noise ordinances.
[Fixed quote for clarity.]
Yeah, I get that. What I actually disagreed with was the "anonymous letter" part. Having no wish to be confrontational, I reached into the humor arsenal.
The offenders have received communication from the city. If the parking violations are not enough for them to get the message, then GS could go to the city, reference the prior parking violations and explain that the noise problem is recurring. This is more likely to have an impact than an anonymous letter, IMO.
You have a different opinion and no one's saying you're wrong.
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If you really believe maybe this may be a cultural misunderstanding, perhaps leave an anonymous note explaining the city noise ordinance (in basic terms) and asking them to please be a good neighbor and refrain from excessively loud parties and parties after quiet hours. Maybe they won't care, but if it is truly just a case of not understanding the cultural (and legal) expectations, it might help. I don't see how if could hurt.
In other circumstances I would agree, but probably not immediately after shutting their party and getting 70 to 80 cars ticketed. There may be a better opportunity for outreach when things have settled back down.
Seems to me the offenders just received 70-80 such notes, courtesy of the city.
They got notes about parking violations, not noise ordinances.
[Fixed quote for clarity.]
Yeah, I get that. What I actually disagreed with was the "anonymous letter" part. Having no wish to be confrontational, I reached into the humor arsenal.
The offenders have received communication from the city. If the parking violations are not enough for them to get the message, then GS could go to the city, reference the prior parking violations and explain that the noise problem is recurring. This is more likely to have an impact than an anonymous letter, IMO.
You have a different opinion and no one's saying you're wrong.
Ah, got it! Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I do think an anonymous letter is unlikely to work, but I think it's worth a try since it really costs nothing. Mostly, that post was in response to the tangent that perhaps this is just a cultural misunderstanding.
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Are there parks or venues which allow loud late partying like this? Wedding halls and zoning exist for this very reason.
I agree, somebody (like the municipality) needs to flyer the neighborhood with information about the noise ordinances, and also advise that the neighbors explore venues in zones allowed to hold such celebrations.
They should also investigate the business that does this and require that they operate in a better way.
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Are there parks or venues which allow loud late partying like this? Wedding halls and zoning exist for this very reason.
I agree, somebody (like the municipality) needs to flyer the neighborhood with information about the noise ordinances, and also advise that the neighbors explore venues in zones allowed to hold such celebrations.
They should also investigate the business that does this and require that they operate in a better way.
This is an excellent idea. It may be pointed and obvious why this is being done, but also proactive, educational and helpful, e.g., if the town councillor or whoever publishes it provides information about venues better suited, other alternatives, as well as of course the basic laws. While ignorance of the law is no excuse, it's still a good idea for elected leaders and enforcers of such laws to take every opportunity they can to do proactive education that makes it easier on their constituents to avoid problems and plan events that comply from the beginning.
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I get that there are probably some cultural differences, but it's really hard for me to imagine this behaviour being welcome in any society.
I'm Indian, and if they are Indian I can confirm it's unacceptable in my culture, too. Unless you invite the entire village and dish out free food for everyone! There's no misunderstanding - most Indians in Canada (esp Toronto) are 2nd or 3rd generation. Sounds like they're throwing a wedding and too poor (or too cheap, depending on your neighborhood's socioeconomic status) to do that. I'd go after the business since that seems to be the common link. Unfortunately it seems like your city is not interested in dealing with it, so some civil case would be needed. Sorry, man!
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Hire someone to deliver a truck load of manure to their driveway, right in front of the tent.
Put a fresh fish in a few of the speakers. Tape one under any tables as well.
Wire cutters.
Look how this turned out in the classic Norm McDonald movie "Dirty Work"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG9EDE_bnws
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When I read your first post I kept thinking of Xexi Li. The cause of the annoyance is different but the result to the neighbourhood is the same.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/zexi-li-ottawa-injunction-trucker-protest-convoy-1.6344503 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/zexi-li-ottawa-injunction-trucker-protest-convoy-1.6344503)