Author Topic: The real purpose of the government shutdown  (Read 4900 times)

Pizzabrewer

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The real purpose of the government shutdown
« on: January 14, 2019, 10:04:13 PM »
This is actually the most logical explanation for what’s going on with the shutdown. Keep everyone arguing about the “wall” when the real objective is to blow up government agencies.  It's been the Republicans wet dream since Reagan/Gingrich/et al to shrink the government to the point they can drown it in a bath tub. 

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/senior-trump-official-anonymous-daily-caller-op-ed-shutdown-federal-workers?fbclid=IwAR3FmVrHo2ChwjnYnPWqFChM0AhtSaBEJHFEGekhzWfhsCiw09VQMAOtPFk

sol

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2019, 12:09:09 AM »
Quote

This is actually the most logical explanation for what’s going on with the shutdown. Keep everyone arguing about the “wall” when the real objective is to blow up government agencies.

I agree that the shutdown isn't just about border security.  Trump is a reality tv star first and foremost, and he needs to command the narrative.

As long as the entire news cycle is focused on his decision to shut down the government unless he gets a border wall, then they're not talking about...

1.  The Russia investigation.
2.  The midterm election he just lost.
3.  The botched Syria withdrawal.
4.  The democratic House majority issuing subpoenas for his tax returns or investigating ethical lapses.
5.  The upcoming census and gerrymandering issues.
6.  More criminal convictions of his senior staff.
7.  Stock market declines.
8.  His marital infidelities.
9.  Anyone's announcement of their 2020 candidacy.
10. The bipartisan proposals to reform US immigration.
11. His inability to find or retain cabinet secretaries. 
12. The failure of his tax reform bill and his ballooning deficit spending.

...

I could go go, but you get the point.  Basically, there is basically no good news for Trump out there right now, so he minimizes the damages by keeping everyone as focused as possible on one specific issue, which he can at least try to blame on someone else.

I'm not so worried about the possibility raised in that article you linked, that furloughed federal workers will not be called back.  They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.  Employees are deemed "essential" and forced to work without pay whenever their work is necessary to protect life or property.  No matter what your jobs is, it probably can't go more than a few weeks before your absence starts costing your employer some serious financial losses.  Short term absences are recoverable.  Indefinite absences will cause billions of dollars in damages in pretty short order.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 08:10:34 AM by sol »

davisgang90

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2019, 04:01:10 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

simonsez

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2019, 07:51:44 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?

bacchi

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2019, 09:17:46 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

Start with the military, please.

DadJokes

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2019, 09:28:35 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

bacchi

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2019, 09:50:06 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

talltexan

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 09:55:17 AM »
It doesn't sound like you're a small business trying to hire people without having access to E-Verify.

DadJokes

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 10:00:41 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

What were the long-term effects of the 2013 or 1995-1996 shutdowns?

cats

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 10:19:19 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

What were the long-term effects of the 2013 or 1995-1996 shutdowns?

Well, in the short-term it apparently cost $24 billion:
http://swampland.time.com/2013/10/17/heres-what-the-government-shutdown-cost-the-economy/

I work for a private company but we have substantial interaction with federal agencies and need them to sign off if we want to make significant changes in operations.  I recall during the last shutdown we basically weren't able to make some changes that would have benefited us and the result was a financial loss. 

I'm sure also that at least some of the shutdown impacts are not being felt by the general public because there are still furloughed workers working but not being paid.  Imagine what the economic impact would be if all commercial flights had to be grounded because there were no TSA employees available to do security screenings, for example.  From what I have read, there are also plenty of potential impacts that would be felt beyond the federal workforce if the shutdown extended into February.  SNAP benefits being unfunded is one I keep hearing tossed around.

davisgang90

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2019, 11:01:59 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?
No, my career was in the military, national defense.  One of the actual constitutionally proscribed roles of the federal government.  And yes, DoD is far too big and should have been reduced earlier.

bacchi

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2019, 11:16:13 AM »
Quote from: DadJokes
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

What were the long-term effects of the 2013 or 1995-1996 shutdowns?

For the current shutdown, and for past shutdowns, there weren't many long-term effects on the US as a whole.

If it continues, we'll start to see more and more problems. As cats mentioned, TSA is a huge problem. Miami already closed a (small) terminal and lines are getting very long in Atlanta and Houston. That'll start to hurt business profits and will make flying that much more of a PITA.

Unpaid workers, whether exempted or furloughed, will have a ripple effect throughout the economy as banks and landlords and utilities don't get paid. It could take a chunk out of the GDP growth if the shutdown continues.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 11:20:02 AM by bacchi »

driftwood

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2019, 01:15:23 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?
No, my career was in the military, national defense.  One of the actual constitutionally proscribed roles of the federal government.  And yes, DoD is far too big and should have been reduced earlier.

I'm military and I agree. I can both accept my great pay and benefits but also see that the way we live and how our government is operating is unsustainable and hugely wasteful. Just like I can invest in index funds that grow because of consumerism and still think of most people as consumerist suckas (I was one too, and sometimes still am).

Chris22

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2019, 01:44:04 PM »
Quote from: DadJokes
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

What were the long-term effects of the 2013 or 1995-1996 shutdowns?

For the current shutdown, and for past shutdowns, there weren't many long-term effects on the US as a whole.

If it continues, we'll start to see more and more problems. As cats mentioned, TSA is a huge problem. Miami already closed a (small) terminal and lines are getting very long in Atlanta and Houston. That'll start to hurt business profits and will make flying that much more of a PITA.

Unpaid workers, whether exempted or furloughed, will have a ripple effect throughout the economy as banks and landlords and utilities don't get paid. It could take a chunk out of the GDP growth if the shutdown continues.

Given the shittacular way the TSA does business, maybe we should just shitcan the whole program instead of forcing them to reduce manning and then stomp all over our dicks while we try to travel. 

Chris22

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2019, 01:46:01 PM »

I work for a private company but we have substantial interaction with federal agencies and need them to sign off if we want to make significant changes in operations.  I recall during the last shutdown we basically weren't able to make some changes that would have benefited us and the result was a financial loss. 

Perhaps instead of making them go back to work, we should explore whether or not we really need the government's sign off on your operations.

I mean, hard to say without knowing your field; if you design nuclear powerplants maybe their signoff is necessary, if it's, I dunno, you want to open a third lemonade stand, maybe you don't need them standing in your way. 

simonsez

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2019, 02:05:18 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?
No, my career was in the military, national defense.  One of the actual constitutionally proscribed roles of the federal government.  And yes, DoD is far too big and should have been reduced earlier.
Sorry to confuse, wasn't your past position funded with federal dollars is what I meant to ask, which of course the military is funded with federal dollars.

Would you have been okay if you were laid off well prior to approaching FIRE?  If your opinion would be the exact same as it is now, I respect that somewhat though would be slightly dubious that you would be jumping for joy at the efficiency gain as you walk out the door with all your office junk thrown together in a box (then again, this is the Internet and I don't know you).  If you had landed a job with DoD before FIRE and were disgusted right away by the bloat and resigned of your own accord then I would have mad props for that.  If different from being RIFd or resigning (like if you retired only when you were FIRE), then that is hypocritical, no? - assuming you receive some type of payout beyond S.S. from Uncle Sam or will in the future as a result of your career.

I'm sorry you feel that way about DoD.  I hear that sentiment quite often but it is a large agency.  It sucks when you feel your work isn't useful and is redundant or a waste of taxpayer dollars.  I mean, one thing for an ignorant outsider to have that opinion but quite another for someone that was inside to feel that way.

calimom

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2019, 02:09:44 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

Start with the military, please.

Yes, please! It is ironic to have been part of the waste and inefficiency, and still benefitting from government funds and then complaining about waste and inefficiency.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:13:51 PM by calimom »

Cellista

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 02:10:47 PM »
Want to reduce the size of government? Fine! You need to examine individual government programs. Can they be reduced/streamlined/merged/eliminated?  Then do so. 

Ending budget support for entire agencies that administer numerous programs is not the way to reduce government spending.

This article is just another instance of Trump's people trying to find scapegoats for their failures.  Blame the victim is Trumpism 101.

DadJokes

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 02:23:54 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

Start with the military, please.

Yes, please! It is ironic to have been part of the waste and inefficiency, and still benefitting from government funds and then complaining about waste and inefficiency.

There were so many occasions when I was in the army where I just thought about the amount of waste around me. We could cut the military budget by 30%+ without any drop in functionality if it was just more efficient.

bacchi

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 02:39:19 PM »
Given the shittacular way the TSA does business, maybe we should just shitcan the whole program instead of forcing them to reduce manning and then stomp all over our dicks while we try to travel.

A lot of what the TSA does is definitely theater and, by many accounts, they fail at security.

However, airports don't have to use TSA. They can hire their own security.

mm1970

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 02:40:25 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

Start with the military, please.

Yes, please! It is ironic to have been part of the waste and inefficiency, and still benefitting from government funds and then complaining about waste and inefficiency.
You noticed that too?

I mean, I realize there is waste and inefficiency.  I was in the Navy, after all.  I benefited greatly (thank you for most of my BS and all of my master's).  But I didn't stay for any kind of pension either. 

palerider1858

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 02:45:00 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

Start with the military, please.

Yes, please! It is ironic to have been part of the waste and inefficiency, and still benefitting from government funds and then complaining about waste and inefficiency.

There were so many occasions when I was in the army where I just thought about the amount of waste around me. We could cut the military budget by 30%+ without any drop in functionality if it was just more efficient.
Chiming in to agree with this sentiment. I'm Army as well and on occasion, the amount of waste in equipment, supply procurement and manpower was staggering. You would not believe what I have seen thrown away just to justify new equipment coming in.

Telecaster

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 02:49:49 PM »

I work for a private company but we have substantial interaction with federal agencies and need them to sign off if we want to make significant changes in operations.  I recall during the last shutdown we basically weren't able to make some changes that would have benefited us and the result was a financial loss. 

Perhaps instead of making them go back to work, we should explore whether or not we really need the government's sign off on your operations.

I mean, hard to say without knowing your field; if you design nuclear powerplants maybe their signoff is necessary, if it's, I dunno, you want to open a third lemonade stand, maybe you don't need them standing in your way.

It is fine and proper to explore those questions,  but we don't need a government shut down to do so.   For example, many businesses and academic institutions rely on CORS data provided by NOAA:

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/

For example: surveying, navigation, GPS farming, etc.  Except those data aren't available during the shut down.   If we collectively decide we don't want the government to provide those data, then we should give businesses and institutions time to make an orderly transition to other providers.   Just shutting it down willy-nilly is a fool thing to do.   


DadJokes

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 02:54:35 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

Start with the military, please.

Yes, please! It is ironic to have been part of the waste and inefficiency, and still benefitting from government funds and then complaining about waste and inefficiency.

There were so many occasions when I was in the army where I just thought about the amount of waste around me. We could cut the military budget by 30%+ without any drop in functionality if it was just more efficient.
Chiming in to agree with this sentiment. I'm Army as well and on occasion, the amount of waste in equipment, supply procurement and manpower was staggering. You would not believe what I have seen thrown away just to justify new equipment coming in.
Don't forget the containers full of old equipment that is either still good or obsolete, but can't be sold because it's on a commander's hand receipt. And it all has to be inventoried a few times a year.

sol

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 02:59:25 PM »
Want to reduce the size of government? Fine! You need to examine individual government programs. Can they be reduced/streamlined/merged/eliminated?  Then do so. 

And we have several active programs that seek to do so, even going so far as to give financial awards to individual federal employees who can identify examples of waste, fraud, and abuse, or suggest alternative procedures that would save the government money.  I suspect these programs are underutilized, because a lot of employees (everywhere, not just feds) are reluctant to rock the boat.

If our elected representatives want to reduce the size of the government, then Congress 100% has the authority to do that.  They're supposed to address these questions every single year, when they pass a new budget.  The President is not supposed to be part of that conversation, though.  His only power is to veto whatever compromise Congress comes up with, which is the situation we have right now.  Congress agreed on a compromise budget and the president killed it by threatening a veto, causing the Senate majority leader to refuse to send it to the president's desk despite having unanimous support, from literally every single senator.

So this whole idea that the shutdown is designed to shrink government is woefully misguided.  The shutdown is going to cost the government billions, not save it any money.  It's going to increase the deficit.  It's going to hurt the economy.  And it still doesn't do a damn thing to shrink (or expand) the size of government because that's entirely up to Congress in the compromise budget they come up with, but it isn't even being considered right now.  The current shutdown isn't at all about the size of government (or immigration, for that matter), it's just about a symbolic border wall.

Boll weevil

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2019, 04:40:59 PM »
This is actually the most logical explanation for what’s going on with the shutdown.

Who says it has to be logical?

At this point it's a pissing contest and ego. Neither side can back down without appearing to be weak, and neither side can afford to appear weak.

Pizzabrewer

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2019, 04:58:28 PM »

I'm not so worried about the possibility raised in that article you linked, that furloughed federal workers will not be called back.  They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.

I don't know.  That's kind of the point and is the reason Mitch shows no sense of urgency to solve the problem.  How long will it take for many of those 800k Fed employees to give up, quit, and find other work?  1 month?  3 months?  6 months?  Longer?

I have a personal connection to this, our DIL is a (furloughed) Fed employee.  Fortunately she and our son have been Mustachian for a while and are in no paycheck-to-paycheck danger.  Yet they've been saving up for a house down payment and that's been interrupted.  She's certainly not close to jumping ship but I doubt she'd wait around unemployed for more than a half-year.

cats

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2019, 05:17:03 PM »

I work for a private company but we have substantial interaction with federal agencies and need them to sign off if we want to make significant changes in operations.  I recall during the last shutdown we basically weren't able to make some changes that would have benefited us and the result was a financial loss. 

Perhaps instead of making them go back to work, we should explore whether or not we really need the government's sign off on your operations.

I mean, hard to say without knowing your field; if you design nuclear powerplants maybe their signoff is necessary, if it's, I dunno, you want to open a third lemonade stand, maybe you don't need them standing in your way.

Closer to the former than the latter :)  While I find the need for federal sign-off something of a hassle, I much prefer it to the alternatives I'm aware of or can dream up on my own.  Leaving regulation 100% at the state level (as I believe was suggested upthread) would certainly not reduce hassle on my end and might even make it worse.

I certainly believe there's waste in some parts of the federal government, but a shutdown is like some sort of scrambled version of throwing the baby out with the bathwater where you may throw out the baby and still have half the bathwater left to deal with.  It's not an efficient or smart way to do things at all.

Kris

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2019, 05:40:28 PM »
An orange toddler’s tantrum is just that.

An orange toddler’s tantrum that puts national security and people’s livelihoods at risk is another thing entirely.

A discussion about whether and which agencies need reforms or cuts is a separate issue. Which should, uh, actually happen as an adult conversation, and not as a dimwitted reality star’s power trip.

Every time I see some ridiculous libertarian argument that this shutdown is somehow a good thing, I just shake my head at the idiocy.

FFS.

DreamFIRE

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 05:51:02 PM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!

I'll go with that!

the_fixer

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2019, 06:37:54 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

What were the long-term effects of the 2013 or 1995-1996 shutdowns?
1995 - 1996 shutdown

The small company I worked for closed due to contracts not being awarded and not getting paid. All of the employees lost their jobs and as far as I know they never opened again as the location remained empty for years until someone else lease or purchased the building.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


sol

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2019, 08:11:45 AM »
They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.

As expected, federal workers are already being called back from furlough status, and forced to work without pay.  The IRS just recalled 36k people to help with tax filing season.  Also park rangers, food inspectors, air traffic controllers, etc.  Turns out even the Trump administration thinks we need federal workers.  It just wants them to work for free.

Cellista

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2019, 08:40:40 AM »
They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.

As expected, federal workers are already being called back from furlough status, and forced to work without pay.  The IRS just recalled 36k people to help with tax filing season.  Also park rangers, food inspectors, air traffic controllers, etc.  Turns out even the Trump administration thinks we need federal workers.  It just wants them to work for free.

I cannot imagine these workers are going to be very productive. They've already missed one paycheck and have no promise the next paycheck will come either. 


J Boogie

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2019, 09:17:15 AM »
Quote

This is actually the most logical explanation for what’s going on with the shutdown. Keep everyone arguing about the “wall” when the real objective is to blow up government agencies.



As long as the entire news cycle is focused on his decision to shut down the government unless he gets a border wall, then they're not talking about...

1.  The Russia investigation.
2.  The midterm election he just lost.
3.  The botched Syria withdrawal.
4.  The democratic House majority issuing subpoenas for his tax returns or investigating ethical lapses.
5.  The upcoming census and gerrymandering issues.
6.  More criminal convictions of his senior staff.
7.  Stock market declines.
8.  His marital infidelities.
9.  Anyone's announcement of their 2020 candidacy.
10. The bipartisan proposals to reform US immigration.
11. His inability to find or retain cabinet secretaries. 
12. The failure of his tax reform bill and his ballooning deficit spending.


If I can add another...

13. Jerome Powell "Very Worried" about continuing growth of already massive US debt.


mm1970

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2019, 10:43:01 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

What were the long-term effects of the 2013 or 1995-1996 shutdowns?
1995 - 1996 shutdown

The small company I worked for closed due to contracts not being awarded and not getting paid. All of the employees lost their jobs and as far as I know they never opened again as the location remained empty for years until someone else lease or purchased the building.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I don't remember how long that one was.  I was still in the Navy, considered essential (um, nuclear and all), and still got paid.

Our admin staff wasn't working though.

the_fixer

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2019, 10:51:31 AM »
Reduce the size of our federal government?  Yes please!
Just curious, what was your career?  Wasn't it federal?  Are you vouching that your previous department was too big and should've been reduced earlier?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I would argue that at least half of all federal government programs should be operated no higher than at the state level. If this shutdown has proved anything to me, it's that most people's lives (excluding those who work for the government) aren't really that affected by the shutdown of the federal government.

Perhaps this is too early to claim? Some of the effects are going to be delayed.

What were the long-term effects of the 2013 or 1995-1996 shutdowns?
1995 - 1996 shutdown

The small company I worked for closed due to contracts not being awarded and not getting paid. All of the employees lost their jobs and as far as I know they never opened again as the location remained empty for years until someone else lease or purchased the building.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
I don't remember how long that one was.  I was still in the Navy, considered essential (um, nuclear and all), and still got paid.

Our admin staff wasn't working though.
November 14 - 19 1995 for 5 days
December 16 1995  - January 6th 1996 for 21 days

It was the longest shutdown prior to this current one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdowns_of_1995–1996


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« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 10:54:31 AM by the_fixer »

Telecaster

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2019, 11:18:04 AM »

The small company I worked for closed due to contracts not being awarded and not getting paid. All of the employees lost their jobs and as far as I know they never opened again as the location remained empty for years until someone else lease or purchased the building.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The medium company I worked for suffered lasting financial damage because of that shut down.  Trump is doing real damage to people's lives. 

Kris

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2019, 11:19:13 AM »

The small company I worked for closed due to contracts not being awarded and not getting paid. All of the employees lost their jobs and as far as I know they never opened again as the location remained empty for years until someone else lease or purchased the building.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The medium company I worked for suffered lasting financial damage because of that shut down.  Trump is doing real damage to people's lives.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/01/white-house-just-realized-shutdown-is-hurting-the-economy

davisgang90

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2019, 12:41:57 PM »
Want to reduce the size of government? Fine! You need to examine individual government programs. Can they be reduced/streamlined/merged/eliminated?  Then do so. 
If our elected representatives want to reduce the size of the government, then Congress 100% has the authority to do that.  They're supposed to address these questions every single year, when they pass a new budget.  The President is not supposed to be part of that conversation, though.  His only power is to veto whatever compromise Congress comes up with, which is the situation we have right now. 
This isn't an accurate statement.  All the departments submit proposed budgets to OMB who consolidates them for the president to submit to congress.  The various departments even refer to it as the president's budget (PB).  You are correct that Congress gets to modify/wholesale change it, but your comment made it sound like the executive branch has no involvement until the veto pen, which isn't a fair representation of the process.

sol

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2019, 12:46:50 PM »
your comment made it sound like the executive branch has no involvement until the veto pen, which isn't a fair representation of the process.

I understand that the President submits his funding priorities prior to Congress making a decision.  I used to be a federal employee and I've helped prepare some of the relevant documents.

I just meant that the constitutionally enumerated powers for each branch of government make it very clear that the purse belongs to the legislative branch, not the executive branch.  Whether or not Congress decides to cede power to the president is a secondary issue.  They can do so voluntarily, but ultimately the authority to allocate funding lies entirely with Congress.  They can tell the president to go suck a lemon, and I fear that is about to be our only way out of the current shutdown situation.

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2019, 05:22:53 PM »
They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.

As expected, federal workers are already being called back from furlough status, and forced to work without pay.  Th

Again, @sol, that is fake news.  They are still going to get paid, it will simply be delayed.  Delayed pay is not the same as never getting paid.  But not only are the government workers going to be paid for the time they work, the ones who have been sitting on their asses at home for the last month are going to be paid for doing that as well.  My tax dollars at work, all because of democrat obstructionism.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 05:33:41 PM by DreamFIRE »

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2019, 06:11:33 PM »
They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.

As expected, federal workers are already being called back from furlough status, and forced to work without pay.  Th

Again, @sol, that is fake news.  They are still going to get paid, it will simply be delayed.  Delayed pay is not the same as never getting paid.  But not only are the government workers going to be paid for the time they work, the ones who have been sitting on their asses at home for the last month are going to be paid for doing that as well.  My tax dollars at work, all because of democrat obstructionism.

^ That's a bit of revisionism.   Last month the Republican-controlled senate unanimously passed a funding bill that did not include monies for a border wall:

The GOP-controlled Congress on Wednesday severely undermined President Trump’s drive for a border wall, embracing a short-term spending bill that would keep the government open but deny any new money for his long-promised wall along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The agreement announced by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) would fund the federal government through Feb. 8, averting a partial shutdown scheduled to take effect at the end of Friday absent action by Congress and Trump. But the spending bill would not include any of the $5 billion Trump is demanding for his wall, and it would punt the next round of border wall decisions into the new year, when a new Democratic majority in the House will have the power to stop wall funding from going through Congress.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-signals-it-might-accept-a-short-term-spending-bill-to-avert-shutdown/2018/12/19/63148a02-0395-11e9-9122-82e98f91ee6f_story.html?utm_term=.317504da2c24

So Trump rejects a bill that was passed unanimously by Republicans, and it is the Democrats' fault?   That stretches the bounds of credulity.   


Kris

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2019, 07:28:16 PM »
They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.

As expected, federal workers are already being called back from furlough status, and forced to work without pay.  Th

Again, @sol, that is fake news.  They are still going to get paid, it will simply be delayed.  Delayed pay is not the same as never getting paid.  But not only are the government workers going to be paid for the time they work, the ones who have been sitting on their asses at home for the last month are going to be paid for doing that as well.  My tax dollars at work, all because of democrat obstructionism.

“Simply.”

It’s simple, people. Nothing to worry about.


Lol

DreamFIRE

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2019, 07:30:10 PM »
They will absolutely called back, most of them within a month, whether they are getting paid or not.

As expected, federal workers are already being called back from furlough status, and forced to work without pay.  Th

Again, @sol, that is fake news.  They are still going to get paid, it will simply be delayed.  Delayed pay is not the same as never getting paid.  But not only are the government workers going to be paid for the time they work, the ones who have been sitting on their asses at home for the last month are going to be paid for doing that as well.  My tax dollars at work, all because of democrat obstructionism.

^ That's a bit of revisionism.   Last month the Republican-controlled senate unanimously passed a funding bill that did not include monies for a border wall:

So Trump rejects a bill that was passed unanimously by Republicans, and it is the Democrats' fault?   That stretches the bounds of credulity.

How about this:

"Hoping to avert a government shutdown, House Republicans on Thursday passed a stopgap spending measure that included $5 billion for a southern border wall, putting it at odds with the Senate and increasing the likelihood of a government shutdown. No Democrats supported the measure. "

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government-funding-bill-passage-now-uncertain-in-the-house/

the_gastropod

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2019, 07:46:34 PM »
Again, @sol, that is fake news.  They are still going to get paid, it will simply be delayed.  Delayed pay is not the same as never getting paid.  But not only are the government workers going to be paid for the time they work, the ones who have been sitting on their asses at home for the last month are going to be paid for doing that as well.  My tax dollars at work, all because of democrat obstructionism.

Ohhh boy. Let's see here:
* Says "fake news"? check
* Uses exact talking point phrase "democrat obstructionism" Trump uses? check
* Uses "democrat" epithet? check

My friend, I think it's time to take a long hard look at what you're putting out there. This is pure partisan hackery. Be better than that.

Quote
House Republicans on Thursday passed a stopgap spending measure that included $5 billion for a southern border wall

This is not how Democracy works. The majority of Americans do not want this wall. Republicans controlled the house, the senate, and the presidency for the past two years. They did not fund the wall. The 2018 election resulted in Democratic control of the House. Republicans must now negotiate. Giving the president exactly what he asks for is not negotiating.

There is a funding bill, the one the last Senate passed unanimously, passed in the House, that Mitch McConnell will not put up for a vote. To somehow place blame with the "democrat obstructionists" for this continued shutdown is beyond absurd.

bacchi

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2019, 08:07:57 PM »
It bears repeating:

The shutdown started with a Republican President, a Republican-controlled House, and a Republican-controlled Senate.


aaahhrealmarcus

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2019, 09:47:24 PM »
Elections have consequences. One of those is not getting your way 100% of the time if you're the losing party. There is no "border crisis." There is no emergency. Trump lost the House, so he shut down the govt. End of story, simple as that.

Kris

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2019, 08:43:02 AM »
This shit is so hilariously stupid. Trump is running tv ads asking people to call 800-350-6647 and press 1 to DEMAND that Pelosi and Schumer fund the wall. Buried at the end, the announcer says, "press 2 if you do NOT support funding the wall."

FFS...

StarBright

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2019, 08:58:49 AM »

The small company I worked for closed due to contracts not being awarded and not getting paid. All of the employees lost their jobs and as far as I know they never opened again as the location remained empty for years until someone else lease or purchased the building.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The medium company I worked for suffered lasting financial damage because of that shut down.  Trump is doing real damage to people's lives.

I work for a small company that contracts with pretty diverse gov agencies and had one project screwed up in December. But we have a few other DOD projects where our funding expired two days ago. DOD is funded but apparently some of the contracting agencies aren't so we have customers that need work product but can't authorize us to proceed - it is a mess! A third of our staff is now sitting unbillable while our customers are falling behind on their projects.

We are scrambling to find small private sector jobs to fill the hole, but they also have to be small enough that we can drop/finish projects with 24 hours notice.


Jim Fiction

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Re: The real purpose of the government shutdown
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2019, 11:41:08 AM »
This shit is so hilariously stupid. Trump is running tv ads asking people to call 800-350-6647 and press 1 to DEMAND that Pelosi and Schumer fund the wall. Buried at the end, the announcer says, "press 2 if you do NOT support funding the wall."

FFS...

I saw adds on Youtube a week or so ago promoting something similar - text "wall" to this number to show your support! I very badly wanted to text "IMPEACH" instead.