The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: patchyfacialhair on August 14, 2017, 01:06:41 PM
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"Fair enough."
One of my regular podcasts is Bill Burr's Monday Morning Podcast. For those not in the know, he's a stand-up comedian who also created a cartoon on Netflix among other things. His podcast is usually just him rambling into the microphone about current events, his life, or sometimes nothing important at all. I find it soothing, since really nothing of importance is ever the topic.
During the holidays, he suggested using the phrase "Hey, fair enough" as an easy out for those awkward political discussions.
I've since used the phrase at home and at work on numerous occasions. It's a magical phrase; you can use it anywhere where people are exchanging opinions and you'd rather not share yours.
So, definitely off topic for this forum, but just thought I'd share!
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Fair enough.
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Many comedians make it their goal to push the audience well past the point of comfort with their material, and then find a way to wrap it all up and leave them laughing rather than cringing or booing.
Bill Burr is very good at this. He can come off as an old school chauvinist type guy (I think he's channeling what his dad was like when he was a kid) and he plays it up to his advantage to get the crowd on edge and just about ready to turn on him. A good example is his bit on Michelle Obama/First ladies in general, or his bit about Oprah calling motherhood the most difficult job on the planet, or when he questions there being no reason to hit a woman. He's able to weave his way through these deathtraps so perfectly you don't even notice because you're laughing so hard. I think it's because he still goes out on the road so much and does his bits to new audiences all the time, tweaking things here and there to perfection.
Fair enough is a great diffuser.
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I sometimes use "That's a good point", while adding silently to myself, "but not for someone with any degree of rationality."
I believe I'll add this gem to my repertoire. Thanks!
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But wouldn't "fair enough" give legitimacy to statements that may be very illegitimate? I can see it working in situations that aren't particularly fraught, but if someone says something completely false or offensive I would think saying "fair enough" implies you are agreeing to a large degree.
"The whole Russia investigation is fake news, a total witch hunt!"
"Fair enough."
"It's established fact that blacks don't have the intellectual ability of whites."
"Fair enough."
?????!!
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One of my favourite times using that phrase was at a football game many years ago. There were quite a few of us season ticket holders, in a particularly rowdy section, all of us drinking booze we had smuggled in. The security guard paused as he walked by, looked at me and said if he saw it he'd have to take it.
"Fair Enough." The ground rules had been established:-)
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The brits say it a lot.
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But wouldn't "fair enough" give legitimacy to statements that may be very illegitimate? I can see it working in situations that aren't particularly fraught, but if someone says something completely false or offensive I would think saying "fair enough" implies you are agreeing to a large degree.
"The whole Russia investigation is fake news, a total witch hunt!"
"Fair enough."
"It's established fact that blacks don't have the intellectual ability of whites."
"Fair enough."
?????!!
Tone is important. A small smile, a quick "hey, fair enough" can subtly tell the other person that you're done with the conversation. It can also be combined with a quick change in the subject without making it obvious that you wanted to change the subject.
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"It's established fact that blacks don't have the intellectual ability of whites."
"Fair enough."
?????!!
Tone is important. A small smile, a quick "hey, fair enough" can subtly tell the other person that you're done with the conversation. It can also be combined with a quick change in the subject without making it obvious that you wanted to change the subject.
Sorry, but comments like that don't deserve a smile, small or otherwise.
What they deserve is a punch in the face. Sadly, that's against the law, but it would certainly be "Fair enough."
It's not against the law to call someone out for being an ignorant ass.
If you can't afford to lose your job over it and you have kids to feed, I'll understand.
Ditto if your life would be in danger or you would be putting someone else's life in danger.
Otherwise, call them out on their crap.
People like that can't ever receive any encouragement in their beliefs. It's like showing a vicious animal a weakness. It only encourages them to do worse.
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My old man had mastered the art of saying "Well, you may be right" using a tone that clearly conveyed he did not think you were right.
Not having learned his diplomacy, I'm going to just start saying "Now that's just nonsense! Stop talking like a fool!"
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My go to phrase:
" Opinions are like assholes.....everybody has one and they all stink"
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"It's established fact that blacks don't have the intellectual ability of whites."
"Fair enough."
?????!!
Tone is important. A small smile, a quick "hey, fair enough" can subtly tell the other person that you're done with the conversation. It can also be combined with a quick change in the subject without making it obvious that you wanted to change the subject.
Sorry, but comments like that don't deserve a smile, small or otherwise.
What they deserve is a punch in the face. Sadly, that's against the law, but it would certainly be "Fair enough."
It's not against the law to call someone out for being an ignorant ass.
If you can't afford to lose your job over it and you have kids to feed, I'll understand.
Ditto if your life would be in danger or you would be putting someone else's life in danger.
Otherwise, call them out on their crap.
People like that can't ever receive any encouragement in their beliefs. It's like showing a vicious animal a weakness. It only encourages them to do worse.
Sometimes you have to choose your battles. You simply can't tilt at every windmill. Phrases such as this one have their place.
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...
"It's established fact that blacks don't have the intellectual ability of whites."
"Fair enough."
?????!!
Tone is important. A small smile, a quick "hey, fair enough" can subtly tell the other person that you're done with the conversation. It can also be combined with a quick change in the subject without making it obvious that you wanted to change the subject.
Sorry, but comments like that don't deserve a smile, small or otherwise.
What they deserve is a punch in the face. Sadly, that's against the law, but it would certainly be "Fair enough."
It's not against the law to call someone out for being an ignorant ass.
If you can't afford to lose your job over it and you have kids to feed, I'll understand.
Ditto if your life would be in danger or you would be putting someone else's life in danger.
Otherwise, call them out on their crap.
People like that can't ever receive any encouragement in their beliefs. It's like showing a vicious animal a weakness. It only encourages them to do worse.
Sometimes you have to choose your battles. You simply can't tilt at every windmill. Phrases such as this one have their place.
I think SwordGuy's point is that racism is always a battle worth choosing. Silence equals consent, and consent is basically racism in this case.
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"Agree to disagree" can de-escalate while still making your opposition to their viewpoint known.
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"Agree to disagree" can de-escalate while still making your opposition to their viewpoint known.
This. Though I prefer a variant. My go-to phrase is, "We'll just have to disagree on that."
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Just saw this on FB- I know it is hard though, sometimes we need a peaceful happy life, (every one deserves this) other times we can be strong and say what we think and take on discomfort for the greater good.
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"It's established fact that blacks don't have the intellectual ability of whites."
"Fair enough."
?????!!
Tone is important. A small smile, a quick "hey, fair enough" can subtly tell the other person that you're done with the conversation. It can also be combined with a quick change in the subject without making it obvious that you wanted to change the subject.
Sorry, but comments like that don't deserve a smile, small or otherwise.
What they deserve is a punch in the face. Sadly, that's against the law, but it would certainly be "Fair enough."
It's not against the law to call someone out for being an ignorant ass.
If you can't afford to lose your job over it and you have kids to feed, I'll understand.
Ditto if your life would be in danger or you would be putting someone else's life in danger.
Otherwise, call them out on their crap.
People like that can't ever receive any encouragement in their beliefs. It's like showing a vicious animal a weakness. It only encourages them to do worse.
Fair enough.
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Just saw this on FB- I know it is hard though, sometimes we need a peaceful happy life, (every one deserves this) other times we can be strong and say what we think and take on discomfort for the greater good.
Great message, but the sheer fact that it's on Facebook makes me question, is that even productive?
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Just saw this on FB- I know it is hard though, sometimes we need a peaceful happy life, (every one deserves this) other times we can be strong and say what we think and take on discomfort for the greater good.
Meh, "staying out of politics" can mean avoiding large scale polarizing political discussions while still being open to talking about local stuff. I'd argue that local politics is way more important than what goes on at the Federal level.
But, hey, fair enough.
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Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
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Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
Right, and I think that what you said above would be great to tell someone you disagree with: "I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace." But again, to me, saying "Fair enough" signals agreement with some possibly highly noxious views.
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
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Fair enough.
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
I already know I'm not changing your viewpoint, I've seen what you think based on your own words. It's not about changing your views; it's about not legitimizing them and not standing by silently, as @Kris points out.
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
I already know I'm not changing your viewpoint, I've seen what you think based on your own words. It's not about changing your views; it's about not legitimizing them and not standing by silently, as @Kris points out.
I'm not sure if you're confused who you are responding to because I haven't expressed any viewpoints here other than to respond to this:
Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
It wasn't about my viewpoint. It was about arguing a point with his family, I presume, over Thanksgiving rather than enjoying the TG dinner and sticking to far less controversial topics. You likely aren't going to change your family member's viewpoint, so don't ruin the day. That is all... pretty simple.
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A phrase that I learned from some southern Americans on a different message board: "bless your heart". I guess it's supposed to be a polite way to address someone who you think said something particularly moronic.
ETA: I was also tagged on a Facebook post today by a vehemently anti-vax cousin of mine. Thought about commenting, "you're welcome".
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"It's established fact that blacks don't have the intellectual ability of whites."
"Fair enough."
?????!!
Tone is important. A small smile, a quick "hey, fair enough" can subtly tell the other person that you're done with the conversation. It can also be combined with a quick change in the subject without making it obvious that you wanted to change the subject.
Sorry, but comments like that don't deserve a smile, small or otherwise.
What they deserve is a punch in the face. Sadly, that's against the law, but it would certainly be "Fair enough."
It's not against the law to call someone out for being an ignorant ass.
If you can't afford to lose your job over it and you have kids to feed, I'll understand.
Ditto if your life would be in danger or you would be putting someone else's life in danger.
Otherwise, call them out on their crap.
People like that can't ever receive any encouragement in their beliefs. It's like showing a vicious animal a weakness. It only encourages them to do worse.
Sometimes you have to choose your battles. You simply can't tilt at every windmill. Phrases such as this one have their place.
I think SwordGuy's point is that racism is always a battle worth choosing. Silence equals consent, and consent is basically racism in this case.
SwordGuy was responding to DoubleDown's comment, which was snipped. If you read the whole comment, mine will make more sense. He used a racist example, among others. I was not suggesting racist comments are to be ignored, but I can see how it might seem that way if you did not read DD's whole comment.
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'I hear you' is another option I am thinking of trying when people are boring me with political diatribe.
For me, 'Fair enough' is a shortening of 'it is fair enough that you are voicing your opinion' rather than 'your opinion is fair enough'. Therefore not agreeing or letting the other person think I agree. I also think tone is important.
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'I hear you' is another option I am thinking of trying when people are boring me with political diatribe.
For me, 'Fair enough' is a shortening of 'it is fair enough that you are voicing your opinion' rather than 'your opinion is fair enough'. Therefore not agreeing or letting the other person think I agree. I also think tone is important.
To me, "fair enough" means "you have a point." Which implies grudging agreement. Too bad this is an internet forum, because I have a hard time imagining how tone would convey otherwise.
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I do not have specific phrase.
I speak other languages than English. My first warning is 'I am not interested in continuing this discussion so we need to change topic, or I start replying in languages that you do not understand'. If they do not get it, then I start replying in other languages when I am asked to respond.
Very effective :)
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
I already know I'm not changing your viewpoint, I've seen what you think based on your own words. It's not about changing your views; it's about not legitimizing them and not standing by silently, as @Kris points out.
I'm not sure if you're confused who you are responding to because I haven't expressed any viewpoints here other than to respond to this:
Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
It wasn't about my viewpoint. It was about arguing a point with his family, I presume, over Thanksgiving rather than enjoying the TG dinner and sticking to far less controversial topics. You likely aren't going to change your family member's viewpoint, so don't ruin the day. That is all... pretty simple.
Yeah, I feel this way 110% with my family and most of my friend group, too. I can choose my friends, so I'm not going to tolerate Nazis spouting Nazi shit at my dinner table, but I suspect I might have a higher tolerance than other people when it comes to other stupid shit.
Most people seem to read the room well enough to know they are starting down a dark path and stop right quick.
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'I hear you' is another option I am thinking of trying when people are boring me with political diatribe.
For me, 'Fair enough' is a shortening of 'it is fair enough that you are voicing your opinion' rather than 'your opinion is fair enough'. Therefore not agreeing or letting the other person think I agree. I also think tone is important.
To me, fair enough means "you have a point." Which implies grudging agreement. Too bad this is an internet forum, because I have a hard time imagining how tone would convey otherwise.
See, this is the exact problem I have with political discussions over the internet, especially Facebook. It allows people to get behind their keyboards and say things they wouldn't otherwise say in person. The amount of toxicity I see on Facebook is very troubling, and is a big reason I deleted it from my phone. How does this encourage productive discussion?
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
I already know I'm not changing your viewpoint, I've seen what you think based on your own words. It's not about changing your views; it's about not legitimizing them and not standing by silently, as @Kris points out.
I'm not sure if you're confused who you are responding to because I haven't expressed any viewpoints here other than to respond to this:
Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
It wasn't about my viewpoint. It was about arguing a point with his family, I presume, over Thanksgiving rather than enjoying the TG dinner and sticking to far less controversial topics. You likely aren't going to change your family member's viewpoint, so don't ruin the day. That is all... pretty simple.
Yeah, I feel this way 110% with my family and most of my friend group, too. I can choose my friends, so I'm not going to tolerate Nazis spouting Nazi shit at my dinner table, but I suspect I might have a higher tolerance than other people when it comes to other stupid shit.
Most people seem to read the room well enough to know they are starting down a dark path and stop right quick.
I have to say I have never experienced someone expressing or displaying Nazi hatred in real life, just television or online. Not even at a near-by table or such. I think I would be shocked to suddenly experience that from someone some day, but I'm certain it wouldn't be from anyone I'm friends with or any relatives.
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Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
Gosh isn't that the truth! The non-confrontationalist ( not really a word but it SHOULD be) in me has chosen international travel for Thanksgiving: last year we went to the UK and this year we're going to Mexico. I am fairly moderate but despise Trump, and there are a couple hardcore Trump fans in my husband's family. For the sake of peace it's easier to avoid them sometimes. And, international travel is surprisingly cheap during the week of Thanksgiving...
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Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
Gosh isn't that the truth! The non-confrontationalist ( not really a word but it SHOULD be) in me has chosen international travel for Thanksgiving: last year we went to the UK and this year we're going to Mexico. I am fairly moderate but despise Trump, and there are a couple hardcore Trump fans in my husband's family. For the sake of peace it's easier to avoid them sometimes. And, international travel is surprisingly cheap during the week of Thanksgiving...
So in Big 5 personality terms, you'd be Agreeable or Disagreeable. Honestly, I think "Assertive" is probably better than Disagreeable as a term, so it's what I use...but there's your word if you need it :)
The strangest situation I have ever seen was going to my friend's wedding, where someone was telling me that immigrants were ruining the UK. Her fiancé is Pakistani Muslim, but second generation from the UK, because his Mom and Dad were from the UK, and they were in turn second generation from an initial move from Pakistan.
It was the fiancé's uncle telling me that immigrants were ruining the country. And I'm just thinking, "your dad immigrated from Pakistan....what?"
I was absolutely flabber-gasted, and glad I didn't have to talk to him after that point.
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How about "That is an interesting observation". This does not imply agreement, and irrational / racist / unintelligent observations are interesting. In a train wreck sort of way, but still...
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fair enough, the most popular, I guess lol
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To me, "fair enough" means "you have a point." Which implies grudging agreement. Too bad this is an internet forum, because I have a hard time imagining how tone would convey otherwise.
Pretty much agree with this. One might debate whether it implies agreement (grudging or otherwise) on an overall issue vs. one facet, but "fair enough" does seem a way to acknowledge a reasonable point made by another party.
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To me, "fair enough" means "you have a point." Which implies grudging agreement. Too bad this is an internet forum, because I have a hard time imagining how tone would convey otherwise.
Pretty much agree with this. One might debate whether it implies agreement (grudging or otherwise) on an overall issue vs. one facet, but "fair enough" does seem a way to acknowledge a reasonable point made by another party.
Exactly. I never use "fair enough" because ^.
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I recently used "fair enough " when receiving a snarky comment from someone and it seems to have worked in preventing a future snarky comment. I used it after reading this thread.
In some situations it does seem like the perfect response.
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I recently used "fair enough " when receiving a snarky comment from someone and it seems to have worked in preventing a future snarky comment. I used it after reading this thread.
In some situations it does seem like the perfect response.
Care to provide details on what was said? I genuinely would like to know!
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I recently used "fair enough " when receiving a snarky comment from someone and it seems to have worked in preventing a future snarky comment. I used it after reading this thread.
In some situations it does seem like the perfect response.
Care to provide details on what was said? I genuinely would like to know!
Not really. It was a petty comment meant to elicit a response with a further petty comment. It would take too long to explain.
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Another good one is "I will give that the consideration it deserves."
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A favorite of mine when people have gone off the rails to crazy-town or have decided upon something, that to me, is obviously flawed or incorrect:
"And how did you come to that conclusion?"
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"Agree to disagree" can de-escalate while still making your opposition to their viewpoint known.
I was at a lecture featuring Cokie Roberts and someone in the audience provided information that was exactly the opposite of what Cokie's research had found. Cokie made it clear that she had done extensive research and the audience member argued about what her granddad had passed down through family folklore. After a few back and forth, the audience member said "well, we'll just have to agree to disagree". Cokie shot back "well, you can agree, but you're still wrong!"
Quite good stuff!
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A favorite of mine when people have gone off the rails to crazy-town or have decided upon something, that to me, is obviously flawed or incorrect:
"And how did you come to that conclusion?"
I might use this, unless I think I'd have to make that trip to crazy town with them.
At my workplace, a recent trend in meetings has been to hold up your hand and say "Peace" and then keep repeating it until the other person stops talking. I think it's meant to say "we're in agreement", but to me it just sounds like "shut the fuck up". I hate it.
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I had a boss who said:
"I hear and understand your concerns".
Translated: I kinda agree, but I'd like it if you just dropped the topic, because I can't publicly agree.
Alternate Translation: Whatever... pfft... don't bother me kid
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
I already know I'm not changing your viewpoint, I've seen what you think based on your own words. It's not about changing your views; it's about not legitimizing them and not standing by silently, as @Kris points out.
I'm not sure if you're confused who you are responding to because I haven't expressed any viewpoints here other than to respond to this:
Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
It wasn't about my viewpoint. It was about arguing a point with his family, I presume, over Thanksgiving rather than enjoying the TG dinner and sticking to far less controversial topics. You likely aren't going to change your family member's viewpoint, so don't ruin the day. That is all... pretty simple.
Yeah, I feel this way 110% with my family and most of my friend group, too. I can choose my friends, so I'm not going to tolerate Nazis spouting Nazi shit at my dinner table, but I suspect I might have a higher tolerance than other people when it comes to other stupid shit.
Most people seem to read the room well enough to know they are starting down a dark path and stop right quick.
I have to say I have never experienced someone expressing or displaying Nazi hatred in real life, just television or online. Not even at a near-by table or such. I think I would be shocked to suddenly experience that from someone some day, but I'm certain it wouldn't be from anyone I'm friends with or any relatives.
Same here. I recognize I live in a bubble and that the stuff is actually out there, but I can't help that suspect that most people who I see complain about this type stuff (who are generally other well off people from privileged backgrounds) aren't experiencing any nazi or racist comments as much as they are flying off the handle at relatively innocuous statements or opinions that differ from their beliefs, partly in an attempt to convince themselves that they are more virtuous than the people they are surrounded by and partly to signal to other people their virtue.
Certainly some people have to be outliers and have experiences that are outliers, and I could just be an outlier, but it's not like I've had to put any effort into avoiding nazi or racist comments so it's weird to hear other people from priviliged backgrounds talking as if they com across racist statements on a monthly or even weekly basis.
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
I already know I'm not changing your viewpoint, I've seen what you think based on your own words. It's not about changing your views; it's about not legitimizing them and not standing by silently, as @Kris points out.
I'm not sure if you're confused who you are responding to because I haven't expressed any viewpoints here other than to respond to this:
Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
It wasn't about my viewpoint. It was about arguing a point with his family, I presume, over Thanksgiving rather than enjoying the TG dinner and sticking to far less controversial topics. You likely aren't going to change your family member's viewpoint, so don't ruin the day. That is all... pretty simple.
Yeah, I feel this way 110% with my family and most of my friend group, too. I can choose my friends, so I'm not going to tolerate Nazis spouting Nazi shit at my dinner table, but I suspect I might have a higher tolerance than other people when it comes to other stupid shit.
Most people seem to read the room well enough to know they are starting down a dark path and stop right quick.
I have to say I have never experienced someone expressing or displaying Nazi hatred in real life, just television or online. Not even at a near-by table or such. I think I would be shocked to suddenly experience that from someone some day, but I'm certain it wouldn't be from anyone I'm friends with or any relatives.
Same here. I recognize I live in a bubble and that the stuff is actually out there, but I can't help that suspect that most people who I see complain about this type stuff (who are generally other well off people from privileged backgrounds) aren't experiencing any nazi or racist comments as much as they are flying off the handle at relatively innocuous statements or opinions that differ from their beliefs, partly in an attempt to convince themselves that they are more virtuous than the people they are surrounded by and partly to signal to other people their virtue.
Certainly some people have to be outliers and have experiences that are outliers, and I could just be an outlier, but it's not like I've had to put any effort into avoiding nazi or racist comments so it's weird to hear other people from priviliged backgrounds talking as if they com across racist statements on a monthly or even weekly basis.
I am Jewish and have overheard anti-Semitic comments from strangers and seen swastika graffiti in the liberal bubble of New York City. A friend constantly made cheap Jew jokes until I said they made me uncomfortable. I also used to live near this building: http://abc7ny.com/lobby-of-queens-condo-filled-with-racist-posters-and-flags/2334197/
Not to mention Charlottesville. White nationalists and neo-Nazis are not a relic of the past. You're lucky that you haven't encountered or noticed this in your personal life. That doesn't mean everybody else is overreacting.
I've heard shit about Muslims, about immigrants, about plenty of marginal groups. I've heard outright racist and homophobic comments from family members. I try to speak up when I can, and I hope that other well-off, privileged people speak up, since they're less vulnerable. The onus shouldn't be on the group directly affected, since they will be punished socially more.
I want to stand up for my friends who report much worse abuse, due to being visibly trans/black/Muslim/etc. Even if I'm not directly experiencing something, that doesn't mean I should be quiet.
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Same here. I recognize I live in a bubble and that the stuff is actually out there, but I can't help that suspect that most people who I see complain about this type stuff (who are generally other well off people from privileged backgrounds) aren't experiencing any nazi or racist comments as much as they are flying off the handle at relatively innocuous statements or opinions that differ from their beliefs, partly in an attempt to convince themselves that they are more virtuous than the people they are surrounded by and partly to signal to other people their virtue.
Certainly some people have to be outliers and have experiences that are outliers, and I could just be an outlier, but it's not like I've had to put any effort into avoiding nazi or racist comments so it's weird to hear other people from priviliged backgrounds talking as if they com across racist statements on a monthly or even weekly basis.
I am Jewish and have overheard anti-Semitic comments from strangers and seen swastika graffiti in the liberal bubble of New York City. A friend constantly made cheap Jew jokes until I said they made me uncomfortable. I also used to live near this building: http://abc7ny.com/lobby-of-queens-condo-filled-with-racist-posters-and-flags/2334197/
Not to mention Charlottesville. White nationalists and neo-Nazis are not a relic of the past. You're lucky that you haven't encountered or noticed this in your personal life. That doesn't mean everybody else is overreacting.
I've heard shit about Muslims, about immigrants, about plenty of marginal groups. I've heard outright racist and homophobic comments from family members. I try to speak up when I can, and I hope that other well-off, privileged people speak up, since they're less vulnerable. The onus shouldn't be on the group directly affected, since they will be punished socially more.
I want to stand up for my friends who report much worse abuse, due to being visibly trans/black/Muslim/etc. Even if I'm not directly experiencing something, that doesn't mean I should be quiet.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to imply that people claiming to have suffered discrimination are not routinely encountering it. I would suspect that any individual black person has heard more racist stuff than i have, any particular jewish person has heard more antisemitic stuff than I have, any immigrant more xenophobic stuff than I have, etc.
I was referring more to the many white people who act like they routinely have to object to racist/nazi type sentiments in casual conversation with their coworkers, family, friends, etc. I get that there are people who are from families that act like that and repeatedly deal with the same family members, but I don't get where other people run into casual racism/nazism that aren't a victim of it.
Pretty much everybody I deal with has a job of some sort and manages to more or less successfully interact with society, which pretty much requires that they not be the type of people that go around dropping comments indicating that they are supportive of racist/nazi views. These other people claiming to constantly come across racist co-workers, acquaintences, etc. seem to live in the same type bubble I do, so it just seems odd that their experience is so different.
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My go to phrase:
" Opinions are like assholes.....everybody has one and they all stink"
LOL one of my Dad's favorite sayings. However, depending on who I am talking to, I sometimes change it to "Opinions are like noses, everyone has one and they all smell".
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Sometimes silence can be very powerful. It doesn't work in all situations, but when a comment is very clearly directed at me and there isn't a chattering crowd to talk right over it, and it's not something I feel morally compelled to argue, I just let it hang in the air. For as long as possible. Let it sink in. Sometimes the person who said it will visibly feel like the moron that they are, or another person will chime in and take up the argument on my behalf, and it's so gratifying!
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I was at a lecture last week about 9/11 in a venue where people are very civilized, very polite, and very interested in learning. One of the speakers went off into a conspiracy-type rant which included some generalizations about middle-eastern men and a bit of what I consider to be crazy-talk. It made me uncomfortable and I really wanted to stand up and shout Stop spreading hate!
Any thoughts on how to handle this type of thing? Short of disrupting the lecture (a few hundred people) or booing or hissing, what would you do?
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I was at a lecture last week about 9/11 in a venue where people are very civilized, very polite, and very interested in learning. One of the speakers went off into a conspiracy-type rant which included some generalizations about middle-eastern men and a bit of what I consider to be crazy-talk. It made me uncomfortable and I really wanted to stand up and shout Stop spreading hate!
Any thoughts on how to handle this type of thing? Short of disrupting the lecture (a few hundred people) or booing or hissing, what would you do?
Nothing. It's a lecture. The way that works is that the lecturers lecture and people in the audience listen. It's not the job of individual members of the audience to push back against a lecturer's point of view. If it's really offensive, you just get up and leave as non-disruptively as possible and if you feel the need, express your opinion to in a venue where people have shown some indication that they are interested in hearing it.
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I like: "That has not been my experience".
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I was at a lecture last week about 9/11 in a venue where people are very civilized, very polite, and very interested in learning. One of the speakers went off into a conspiracy-type rant which included some generalizations about middle-eastern men and a bit of what I consider to be crazy-talk. It made me uncomfortable and I really wanted to stand up and shout Stop spreading hate!
Any thoughts on how to handle this type of thing? Short of disrupting the lecture (a few hundred people) or booing or hissing, what would you do?
Nothing. It's a lecture. The way that works is that the lecturers lecture and people in the audience listen. It's not the job of individual members of the audience to push back against a lecturer's point of view. If it's really offensive, you just get up and leave as non-disruptively as possible and if you feel the need, express your opinion to in a venue where people have shown some indication that they are interested in hearing it.
I agree with Jrr85, but probably because we both have conservative thought processes (note, having a conservative thought process doesn't make you a "conservative", it's just how your mind works).
If you're in a situation with a lecturer expressing an opinion you don't agree with, you have a couple of options.
#1 Say and do nothing and try to understand where they're coming from.
#2 Say and do nothing and ignore them but otherwise be respectful.
#3 Quietly excuse yourself.
Disrupting a lecturer because you find what they're saying as offensive is not acceptable in a normal lecture format (save for a few exceptions such as a call for violence). If you want to question them during Q&A, or if there is a format that allows dialogue, then have at it (to question their judgement, not their motivations).
If you want to write the organization hosting the lecture for a rebuke of their opinions, and/or blog/publish an opinion piece later about what they said and why you found it to be incorrect, that is also acceptable. When listening to an offensive speaker always remember that they are ultimately not immune to the consequences of their speech. Remember that the respect you're showing to the venue is respect for the expression of opinion, not respect for the offensive opinion.
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You might as well say "fair enough" and move on with eating Thanksgiving Dinner because it's highly unlikely your efforts are going to change anyone's mind, and why ruin your Thanksgiving? Think about it... how often do you see those discussions ending with someone saying, "oh, you're right, I was wrong, thanks for changing my viewpoint"?
I already know I'm not changing your viewpoint, I've seen what you think based on your own words. It's not about changing your views; it's about not legitimizing them and not standing by silently, as @Kris points out.
I'm not sure if you're confused who you are responding to because I haven't expressed any viewpoints here other than to respond to this:
Sometimes I want to call someone out for something I disagree with, and sometimes I just want to have Thanksgiving in peace.
It wasn't about my viewpoint. It was about arguing a point with his family, I presume, over Thanksgiving rather than enjoying the TG dinner and sticking to far less controversial topics. You likely aren't going to change your family member's viewpoint, so don't ruin the day. That is all... pretty simple.
Yeah, I feel this way 110% with my family and most of my friend group, too. I can choose my friends, so I'm not going to tolerate Nazis spouting Nazi shit at my dinner table, but I suspect I might have a higher tolerance than other people when it comes to other stupid shit.
Most people seem to read the room well enough to know they are starting down a dark path and stop right quick.
I have to say I have never experienced someone expressing or displaying Nazi hatred in real life, just television or online. Not even at a near-by table or such. I think I would be shocked to suddenly experience that from someone some day, but I'm certain it wouldn't be from anyone I'm friends with or any relatives.
Same here. I recognize I live in a bubble and that the stuff is actually out there, but I can't help that suspect that most people who I see complain about this type stuff (who are generally other well off people from privileged backgrounds) aren't experiencing any nazi or racist comments as much as they are flying off the handle at relatively innocuous statements or opinions that differ from their beliefs, partly in an attempt to convince themselves that they are more virtuous than the people they are surrounded by and partly to signal to other people their virtue.
Certainly some people have to be outliers and have experiences that are outliers, and I could just be an outlier, but it's not like I've had to put any effort into avoiding nazi or racist comments so it's weird to hear other people from priviliged backgrounds talking as if they com across racist statements on a monthly or even weekly basis.
It may be who you are around as I found more comments in certain social groups.
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I was at a lecture last week about 9/11 in a venue where people are very civilized, very polite, and very interested in learning. One of the speakers went off into a conspiracy-type rant which included some generalizations about middle-eastern men and a bit of what I consider to be crazy-talk. It made me uncomfortable and I really wanted to stand up and shout Stop spreading hate!
Any thoughts on how to handle this type of thing? Short of disrupting the lecture (a few hundred people) or booing or hissing, what would you do?
Nothing. It's a lecture. The way that works is that the lecturers lecture and people in the audience listen. It's not the job of individual members of the audience to push back against a lecturer's point of view. If it's really offensive, you just get up and leave as non-disruptively as possible and if you feel the need, express your opinion to in a venue where people have shown some indication that they are interested in hearing it.
good point. The lecture was not in any way related to what the conspiracy-nut started discussing. In fact, I'm quite sure the main speaker (a pilot, who happened to be his daughter) looked somewhat embarrassed. It was a cringe-worthy moment, but I'm just hoping that the dad's last minute rant, which had nothing to do with the topic, gets cut-off of the recording.
Thanks for the insight.