Author Topic: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk  (Read 7769 times)

Ron Scott

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The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« on: March 09, 2025, 08:55:20 PM »
Ezra Klein—the liberal NYT luminary—bats over .500 on his podcasts IMO. This one is under 20 minutes and does a great job in pointing out what liberals need to do to win back seats and govern…and why they keep failing.

The sickening truth he describes is one in which we only have a choice between Republicans, who believe government efforts to do anything just aren’t worth it because they almost always fail, and Democrats, who believe in government, but are no longer able to use it to accomplish anything people want and need.

 https://youtu.be/VwjxVRfUV_4?feature=shared

One poignant observation: In the time it took California Democrats to fail miserably at building 500 miles of high-speed rail, a communist dictatorship in China built 23,000 miles of it.

Pro-tip: If the Democrats don’t stop hemorrhaging population in California, New York, Illinois, and other large blue states because of housing affordability, it will be almost impossible for them to win control of Congress and the White House in the future. But theres hope…if they can change 

Memo

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2025, 11:53:35 PM »
I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge the passing significance of the current (1984) number of your posts. Caught my attention with a little "whoa!". Captured the zeitgeist right there.

I know, small minds....

Ron Scott

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2025, 05:13:48 AM »
I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge the passing significance of the current (1984) number of your posts. Caught my attention with a little "whoa!". Captured the zeitgeist right there.

I know, small minds....

Sometimes it seems we’ve been living in 1984 since 1984,

yachi

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2025, 08:02:19 AM »
Pro-tip: If the Democrats don’t stop hemorrhaging population in California, New York, Illinois, and other large blue states because of housing affordability, it will be almost impossible for them to win control of Congress and the White House in the future. But theres hope…if they can change

This seems to be like an odd comment.  Do people change their political party when they move? That seems a weird thing to believe.  If they don't (and I can't see why they would), then I'd say movement of people out of *always* blue states to states that are *almost* blue is the best for gaming the political landscape.

ChpBstrd

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2025, 08:24:41 AM »
Solid points are made here. The unspoken issue is that trial lawyers have been, for decades, a key Democratic constituency, and have profited handsomely from the sort of obstructionism that killed California's high-speed rail and sent NYC's subway expansions billions over budget. Another unspoken issue: Democrats supported the NIMBY policies that led to their strongholds becoming unable to grow, with homeless people everywhere. The lawyers profited at every step of the way.

No wonder then, that Democrat lawyers like Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, and Joe Biden have run the party into the dirt. People do not trust the lawyers any more, and lawyers in public policy roles are seen as parasites who obstruct progress to milk the government teat. It's not that unfair of a characterization.

So Democrats should jettison this constituency and take their own chainsaws to the bureaucracy and endless litigation that has destroyed faith in government. Doing so would enable the green energy transition, convert cities into livable places instead of millionaire-or-homeless dichotomies, and eventually replace our currently parasite-ridden healthcare payment system with a single payer alternative. However, they cannot do so, because the lawyers are about all that is left of the Democratic Party.

Thus, when Democrats have a plan, half the population of the U.S. looks for the angle by which the trial lawyers will benefit. Green transportation and energy projects are simply opportunities for lawyers to work for years on environmental impact studies. And just why TF does an electric train replacing thousands of gas guzzling cars need an environmental impact study? We all know it's not for the sake of the environment. No wonder that people are too distrusting of government to support single-payer healthcare. It would be a bonanza for the lawyers too, or should I say an even bigger bonanza than today's horrible system.

So it's not that Democrats are fans of big government. It's that they are fans of litigation. That would have to change before the United States could have nice cities, modern transportation, clean air and water, affordable housing, etc.

Pro-tip: If the Democrats don’t stop hemorrhaging population in California, New York, Illinois, and other large blue states because of housing affordability, it will be almost impossible for them to win control of Congress and the White House in the future. But theres hope…if they can change
This seems to be like an odd comment.  Do people change their political party when they move? That seems a weird thing to believe.  If they don't (and I can't see why they would), then I'd say movement of people out of *always* blue states to states that are *almost* blue is the best for gaming the political landscape.
Presumably, the people moving from CA to TX or from NY to FL are doing so with an understanding that the policy differences between those places is why they can afford a house, why they can think about starting a family, or why they can start a business. So they either left because they were disillusioned, or they were forced out by rising costs and now their earnings go a lot further. Either way, they are a lot more likely to vote R with the local population.

sixwings

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2025, 08:30:49 AM »
So.... it's really just all a united conspiracy by trial lawyers? That's a new take I haven't heard I guess.

The Dem issue from what I see is that actually gaining a consensus and governing is really hard in a democracy and they are the only party that tries to actually do that. The US system is also designed to be very hard to change quickly if playing by the rules and Dems still try to play by the rules. Social media makes it harder.

Also dem voters shoulder a lot of blame, they just don’t show up if radical change isn’t implemented now, regardless of whether America is ready for it or not. Trump and what the US is going through now is a result of conservative voters showing up every time to vote for whoever was closest aligned to them for like 60 years. This didn’t happen overnight. Politics is a game of inches and conservatives took every single inch they could until the dam broke and they broke through. Dem voters are completely unable to do that because of whatever pet issue or purity test they have.

Their politicians also seem to just suck and are completely incapable of self-reflection and  retiring before they die of old age in office. Kennedy vs RBG is a very good example of that.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2025, 08:37:39 AM by sixwings »

GuitarStv

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2025, 08:41:49 AM »
And just why TF does an electric train replacing thousands of gas guzzling cars need an environmental impact study? We all know it's not for the sake of the environment.

An electric train line doesn't need an environmental impact study provided that you're building it over the road that the gas guzzling cars used to drive over.  However, if you're planning to keep that road too and then build a new rail infrastructure in addition, then there is absolutely a good environmental reason to do an impact study.  You're talking about a massive project that will significantly change the area it's being run through.  Seems very reasonable to take stock of whether or not the route selected has the potential to impact important waterways, known locations of endangered species, etc.  There's a bit of an inconvenient truth that a great many unpopular regulations and rules actually exist for a good reason.

I'm all for reducing unnecessary regulations and rules.  If there's a way to simplify the environmental assessment, or to cut out needless paperwork then by all means do that.  Wholesale cuts based on a layman's conspiracy theories rather than what experts in the industry and related fields say is actually necessary though . . . that doesn't feel like a good way to do this.  That's the Elon Musk 'take a chainsaw to all this stuff I don't understand and fuck it because I don't give a shit about who gets hurt anyway' approach.

chemistk

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2025, 08:51:09 AM »
I think it's even simpler.

Democrats tend to champion policies that are grounded in scientific research formed through broad consensus and with the support of a vast coalition of experts across many specialities. Success through these means requires the general public to be willing to accept that:

1) Policies and projects may not have an immediately tangible benefit to many if not most people. The payoff may not even occur in one's lifetime
2) That there are others who know more about a topic, and be willing to defer to them.
3) Said policies and projects require one to cede certain individual choices/freedoms to the collective good. Many may also require a change in one's thinking and/or lifestyle.
4) Other people may proportionally benefit more from the success of those policies, and that will require empathy.
5) The policies that the Democrats would prefer to champion are likely to be neutral towards organized religion, if not oppositional.
6) Said policies are also ones which require intergovernmental cooperation.

It doesn't matter who you stick out there. There is no fascist Democrat. If there were, they would be assassinated the second they declared that the federal government is going to spend whatever it takes to create a modern public transportation system. Or work to enshrine additional rights into the constitution. Or cement the transition to renewable energy. Or decriminalize benign gldeugs. Or go gangbusters on corporate greed and consolidation.

Or....any of the policies that we currently associate with Democrats.

ChpBstrd, I think you're missing your own point. Republicans are anti-. It doesn't matter what you put in front of them. Emboldened by fear, woven together by faith, empowered to retaliate, they have reprogrammed generations to think that anything that the average person can't understand is not something worth doing. That any infringement of one's own ambition to become wealthy is a moral crime.

I exaggerate, but only slightly.

Empathy has become a sin and the Democrats are guilty of the most heinous crime.




Samuel

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2025, 09:06:09 AM »
Pro-tip: If the Democrats don’t stop hemorrhaging population in California, New York, Illinois, and other large blue states because of housing affordability, it will be almost impossible for them to win control of Congress and the White House in the future. But theres hope…if they can change
This seems to be like an odd comment.  Do people change their political party when they move? That seems a weird thing to believe.  If they don't (and I can't see why they would), then I'd say movement of people out of *always* blue states to states that are *almost* blue is the best for gaming the political landscape.
Presumably, the people moving from CA to TX or from NY to FL are doing so with an understanding that the policy differences between those places is why they can afford a house, why they can think about starting a family, or why they can start a business. So they either left because they were disillusioned, or they were forced out by rising costs and now their earnings go a lot further. Either way, they are a lot more likely to vote R with the local population.

It's not the politics of the people moving, it's that representation in the House and the Electoral College both depend on population. Shrinking population in solidly blue states = fewer Dems in Congress and fewer electoral votes in presidential elections.

"If current trends hold through the 2030 census, states that voted for Vice President Kamala Harris will lose around a dozen House seats — and Electoral College votes — to states that voted for President-elect Donald Trump. The Democratic path to 270 Electoral College votes, the minimum needed to win the presidency, will get much narrower."

https://apnews.com/article/electoral-college-democrats-2030-census-election-republican-0d3c8e8d34cbfc87412a21796dddbd38

sixwings

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2025, 09:28:17 AM »
Pro-tip: If the Democrats don’t stop hemorrhaging population in California, New York, Illinois, and other large blue states because of housing affordability, it will be almost impossible for them to win control of Congress and the White House in the future. But theres hope…if they can change
This seems to be like an odd comment.  Do people change their political party when they move? That seems a weird thing to believe.  If they don't (and I can't see why they would), then I'd say movement of people out of *always* blue states to states that are *almost* blue is the best for gaming the political landscape.
Presumably, the people moving from CA to TX or from NY to FL are doing so with an understanding that the policy differences between those places is why they can afford a house, why they can think about starting a family, or why they can start a business. So they either left because they were disillusioned, or they were forced out by rising costs and now their earnings go a lot further. Either way, they are a lot more likely to vote R with the local population.

It's not the politics of the people moving, it's that representation in the House and the Electoral College both depend on population. Shrinking population in solidly blue states = fewer Dems in Congress and fewer electoral votes in presidential elections.

"If current trends hold through the 2030 census, states that voted for Vice President Kamala Harris will lose around a dozen House seats — and Electoral College votes — to states that voted for President-elect Donald Trump. The Democratic path to 270 Electoral College votes, the minimum needed to win the presidency, will get much narrower."

https://apnews.com/article/electoral-college-democrats-2030-census-election-republican-0d3c8e8d34cbfc87412a21796dddbd38

I wouldn’t read much into that, states and political parties change. 10 years ago the Republican party was going to die due to demographic changes, Ohio had voted for Obama twice, MO had a dem senator and was considered a bellwether state, Indiana voted for Obama, etc. trying to predict political outcomes in 15 years based on todays political landscape isn’t a very good use of energy.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2025, 10:55:18 AM »
Why do we always wish a man, or a figure head, will “save us”. Some bullshit.

We are all we need. Change the world right around you.

chemistk

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2025, 11:32:58 AM »
Why do we always wish a man, or a figure head, will “save us”. Some bullshit.

We are all we need. Change the world right around you.

The answer, staring us dead in the face, is too unpalatable too stomach.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2025, 11:56:04 AM »
Why do we always wish a man, or a figure head, will “save us”. Some bullshit.

We are all we need. Change the world right around you.

The answer, staring us dead in the face, is too unpalatable too stomach.

That’s a very male response. Not trying to be offensive. It’s just how men tend to be wired. For example, in prepping circles, men mainly worry about weapons/ammo. Women will prep for meals, medication, entertainment (card games, hobbies like knitting), clothes, cleaning (ability to wash clothes, prevent infection), garden, education, etc.

Women are much better at threat analysis, deescalation, morale, endurance, etc.

Of course there are tons of terrible women and lovely men so I’m not saying these are immutable rules.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2025, 11:59:24 AM by Fru-Gal »

ChpBstrd

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2025, 12:35:17 PM »
Why do we always wish a man, or a figure head, will “save us”. Some bullshit.

We are all we need. Change the world right around you.
The answer, staring us dead in the face, is too unpalatable too stomach.
That’s a very male response. Not trying to be offensive. It’s just how men tend to be wired. For example, in prepping circles, men mainly worry about weapons/ammo. Women will prep for meals, medication, entertainment (card games, hobbies like knitting), clothes, cleaning (ability to wash clothes, prevent infection), garden, education, etc.

Women are much better at threat analysis, deescalation, morale, endurance, etc.

Of course there are tons of terrible women and lovely men so I’m not saying these are immutable rules.
This is kinda a Rorschach test. My interpretation (likely wrong) is that the expectation of some savior leader helps to relieve us of our own sense of self-accountability. The thing "staring us dead in the face" is that political activity and regular participation in democracy would have to be incorporated as a significant part of our lives, if we should hope to live in a fair and democratic country.

sonofsven

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2025, 12:52:40 PM »
I'm just looking forward to Obama running for his third term in 2028.

reeshau

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2025, 12:55:50 PM »
I'm just looking forward to Obama running for his third term in 2028.

Lol!  That would be karmic justice for someone thinking about getting around term limits!

chemistk

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2025, 01:02:27 PM »
Why do we always wish a man, or a figure head, will “save us”. Some bullshit.

We are all we need. Change the world right around you.
The answer, staring us dead in the face, is too unpalatable too stomach.
That’s a very male response. Not trying to be offensive. It’s just how men tend to be wired. For example, in prepping circles, men mainly worry about weapons/ammo. Women will prep for meals, medication, entertainment (card games, hobbies like knitting), clothes, cleaning (ability to wash clothes, prevent infection), garden, education, etc.

Women are much better at threat analysis, deescalation, morale, endurance, etc.

Of course there are tons of terrible women and lovely men so I’m not saying these are immutable rules.
This is kinda a Rorschach test. My interpretation (likely wrong) is that the expectation of some savior leader helps to relieve us of our own sense of self-accountability. The thing "staring us dead in the face" is that political activity and regular participation in democracy would have to be incorporated as a significant part of our lives, if we should hope to live in a fair and democratic country.

But those things are icky.

Becoming more active political animals forces us to reckon with our own standing in the world. Look to your left, and you face the truth that we are not all treated equally. Look to your right, and you build the narrative that your standing is the only thing that matters in the world.

I do agree that a savior is a convenient entity to cede the dirty work to.


That’s a very male response. Not trying to be offensive. It’s just how men tend to be wired. For example, in prepping circles, men mainly worry about weapons/ammo. Women will prep for meals, medication, entertainment (card games, hobbies like knitting), clothes, cleaning (ability to wash clothes, prevent infection), garden, education, etc.

Women are much better at threat analysis, deescalation, morale, endurance, etc.

Of course there are tons of terrible women and lovely men so I’m not saying these are immutable rules.

No offense taken. I wholeheartedly agree with your generalization. On the whole, we're wired to expect that we can and often must solve most problems. And when things get more complicated than we expect (as they often do) our instruments become far more blunt than we would hope.

For better or for worse, women are wired to expect to clean up the mess that ensues. Unjustly so.

Funny how there are few women saviors. Where they exist, they are much more OP and capable than their male counterparts.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2025, 01:15:46 PM »
Wanting a saviour is such a shifting of religious beliefs to secular life. If Jesus saves your soul, then a human saviour can save your society.  But of course our souls are our own to manage, and so are our lives.

When I look at conservative religion of any sort (Abrahamic faiths in particular), they are religious patriarchal in that women are expected to give decision-making up to men, and then the men are expected to give up decision-making to the male religious leaders.  So men have to submit, but also have the possibility that they can be in charge as religious leaders.

What a sweet set-up for a dictator, no personal responsibility expected or allowed.

mtnrider

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2025, 03:25:19 PM »
Solid points are made here. The unspoken issue is that trial lawyers have been, for decades, a key Democratic constituency, and have profited handsomely from the sort of obstructionism that killed California's high-speed rail and sent NYC's subway expansions billions over budget. Another unspoken issue: Democrats supported the NIMBY policies that led to their strongholds becoming unable to grow, with homeless people everywhere. The lawyers profited at every step of the way.

No wonder then, that Democrat lawyers like Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, and Joe Biden have run the party into the dirt. People do not trust the lawyers any more, and lawyers in public policy roles are seen as parasites who obstruct progress to milk the government teat. It's not that unfair of a characterization.

So Democrats should jettison this constituency and take their own chainsaws to the bureaucracy and endless litigation that has destroyed faith in government. Doing so would enable the green energy transition, convert cities into livable places instead of millionaire-or-homeless dichotomies, and eventually replace our currently parasite-ridden healthcare payment system with a single payer alternative. However, they cannot do so, because the lawyers are about all that is left of the Democratic Party.

Thus, when Democrats have a plan, half the population of the U.S. looks for the angle by which the trial lawyers will benefit. Green transportation and energy projects are simply opportunities for lawyers to work for years on environmental impact studies. And just why TF does an electric train replacing thousands of gas guzzling cars need an environmental impact study? We all know it's not for the sake of the environment. No wonder that people are too distrusting of government to support single-payer healthcare. It would be a bonanza for the lawyers too, or should I say an even bigger bonanza than today's horrible system.

So it's not that Democrats are fans of big government. It's that they are fans of litigation. That would have to change before the United States could have nice cities, modern transportation, clean air and water, affordable housing, etc.


To largely agree, but add a bit of nuance:

Back in, I think the 1960s, it was recognized that big business and government could throw their weight around and upend local folk's lives and environments.  As a check to this, there was a movement to add regulations that allowed community and environmental review before a project could be started.  It was a noble cause.  Most people don't want the woods near them to be taken down or an incinerator in their backyard.  It gives the little people a voice.

But it was weaponized.  If you didn't want a competitor to come to town, you paid to have study after study done on their building sites.  If you are a NIMBY type and wealthy enough, you can essentially stop mass transport, high density housing, and energy projects.  The richer you are, the more you could pay to delay a project until it was halted.  I've seen it happen with high density housing, transportation (both highway and train), and electrical lines.  Here's an egregious example: in the 2000s senator Kennedy and the Koch brothers killed a wind farm project off the Massachusetts coast. 

I doubt that lawyers are mustache twirling and planning this, but I suspect many are happy enough to be employed by it.

And I don't know how to fix it fairly, but I agree it needs to be fixed.


Edit: Ha!  @Ron Scott 's post of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwjxVRfUV_4 Ezra Klein's video is largely along what I wrote.  I need to read Abundance.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2025, 03:39:02 PM by mtnrider »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2025, 02:04:16 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2025, 02:06:24 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

reeshau

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2025, 07:14:38 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?

Florida may have failed in the same way, but then they succeeded.

https://www.gobrightline.com/

Texas' issues seem to mainly be in the DFW area.  Otherwise, there is traffic to justify it.  Southwest Airlines started by serving the same routes.

As for rail in Europe, the answer is simple: the distances are much less.  Particularly if you think about "flyover country" in the US, and how much travel is between the coasts, vs. major European cities.  People still want to get to places quickly, but the hassle of air travel is only justified with longer distances.  You can fly much cheaper than taking high speed rail in Europe, but the trains are still full, because they are much more convenient.

ChpBstrd

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2025, 11:05:44 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?
IDK if legal conditions are so much different in CA than they are in TX or FL. It's mostly federal law that has regulated this form of "intrastate commerce" out of existence and created an ecosystem of lawyers in every state that can feast upon public works projects.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2025, 01:08:14 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?

Florida may have failed in the same way, but then they succeeded.

https://www.gobrightline.com/

Texas' issues seem to mainly be in the DFW area.  Otherwise, there is traffic to justify it.  Southwest Airlines started by serving the same routes.

As for rail in Europe, the answer is simple: the distances are much less.  Particularly if you think about "flyover country" in the US, and how much travel is between the coasts, vs. major European cities.  People still want to get to places quickly, but the hassle of air travel is only justified with longer distances.  You can fly much cheaper than taking high speed rail in Europe, but the trains are still full, because they are much more convenient.
I misread something about Brightline, thanks for the correction.  You've actually made a better point than Ezra Klein in his video: Florida has one high speed rail line, while California doesn't.  There is a second high speed rail project, Brightline West, that plans to connect Las Vegas to California (it relies on local metro to reach Los Angeles, only running high-speed rail to Rancho Cucamonga).

In Germany, high speed rail runs in segments from north to south, over 600 miles.  Those individual segments are justified by the cities they connect.  California's "phase 1" high speed rail planned to run almost 500 miles, connecting 12 cities from San Francisco to Los Angeles, and had one stop further south to Anaheim.  If many segments in Germany average 38 miles (61 km), that is comparable.

EDIT: Population density is a reasonable excuse for a lack of high speed rail.  Countries like Australia and Canada don't have high speed rail, and are closer to the United States in population density.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density
« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 01:27:08 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2025, 01:24:51 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?
IDK if legal conditions are so much different in CA than they are in TX or FL. It's mostly federal law that has regulated this form of "intrastate commerce" out of existence and created an ecosystem of lawyers in every state that can feast upon public works projects.
That point weakens the video's case.  The claim was that California's high speed rail illustrates a problem specific to Democrats.  But if the same problem exists throughout the U.S., the problem isn't just Democrats.  And perhaps you've hit on the salient point - countries like France, Germany, Italy and Japan have high speed rail.

Is it fair to equate your comment about lawyers with corruption?  That corruption in the U.S. is responsible for inefficiency of public works.  Looking at the World Corruption Perceptions Index, many of the countries with high speed rail have less corruption.  Ordered from least corrupt:
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2024

#15 Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Germany

#20 Japan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen

#25 France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_France

#28 United States

#52 Italy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Italy

Corruption, by itself, wouldn't explain the gap between France and the United States, nor Italy.

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2025, 01:24:56 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?

Florida may have failed in the same way, but then they succeeded.

https://www.gobrightline.com/

Texas' issues seem to mainly be in the DFW area.  Otherwise, there is traffic to justify it.  Southwest Airlines started by serving the same routes.

As for rail in Europe, the answer is simple: the distances are much less.  Particularly if you think about "flyover country" in the US, and how much travel is between the coasts, vs. major European cities.  People still want to get to places quickly, but the hassle of air travel is only justified with longer distances.  You can fly much cheaper than taking high speed rail in Europe, but the trains are still full, because they are much more convenient.
I misread something about Brightline, thanks for the correction.  You've actually made a better point than Ezra Klein in his video: Florida has one high speed rail line, while California doesn't.  There is a second high speed rail project, Brightline West, that plans to connect Las Vegas to California (it relies on local metro to reach Los Angeles, only running high-speed rail to Rancho Cucamonga).

In Germany, high speed rail runs in segments from north to south, over 600 miles.  Those individual segments are justified by the cities they connect.  California's "phase 1" high speed rail planned to run almost 500 miles, connecting 12 cities from San Francisco to Los Angeles, and had one stop further south to Anaheim.  If many segments in Germany average 38 miles (61 km), that is comparable.

We also have high-speed rail on the East Coast since 2000 in Acela. Covers 457 miles. Top speed is 150 MPH. Serves about 3 million passengers a year, while the (slower) Northeast Regional serves 9 million passengers a year.

California serves about 12 million riders per year with its current train network.

Brightline high speed rail from LA to Las Vegas is under construction.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 01:28:17 AM by Fru-Gal »

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2025, 01:26:02 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?

Florida may have failed in the same way, but then they succeeded.

https://www.gobrightline.com/

Texas' issues seem to mainly be in the DFW area.  Otherwise, there is traffic to justify it.  Southwest Airlines started by serving the same routes.

As for rail in Europe, the answer is simple: the distances are much less.  Particularly if you think about "flyover country" in the US, and how much travel is between the coasts, vs. major European cities.  People still want to get to places quickly, but the hassle of air travel is only justified with longer distances.  You can fly much cheaper than taking high speed rail in Europe, but the trains are still full, because they are much more convenient.
I misread something about Brightline, thanks for the correction.  You've actually made a better point than Ezra Klein in his video: Florida has one high speed rail line, while California doesn't.  There is a second high speed rail project, Brightline West, that plans to connect Las Vegas to California (it relies on local metro to reach Los Angeles, only running high-speed rail to Rancho Cucamonga).

In Germany, high speed rail runs in segments from north to south, over 600 miles.  Those individual segments are justified by the cities they connect.  California's "phase 1" high speed rail planned to run almost 500 miles, connecting 12 cities from San Francisco to Los Angeles, and had one stop further south to Anaheim.  If many segments in Germany average 38 miles (61 km), that is comparable.

We also have high-speed rail on the East Coast since 2000 in Acela. Covers 457 miles. Top speed is 150 MPH. Serves about 3 million passengers a year, and while the Northeast Regional serves 9 million passengers a year.

California serves about 12 million riders per year with its current train network.

150 mph is not considered high speed rail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail

Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2025, 01:31:28 AM »
Yes, it must be California politics causing problems with high-speed rail.  That's why Florida succeeded where ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_High-Speed_Corridor
Oops, looks like the Florida project was canceled.

But that explains why Texas made high-speed rail...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway
Oh... still in the planning stages?

His point was that California policies are bad, with the example of high-speed rail.  But he doesn't explain why Florida is getting more populous, but also has a failed high-speed rail project.  Same with Texas.  If high-speed rail is an example of the problem, why did it fail in Florida?

It is my understanding Europe is more liberal than the U.S., so his examples of France and Germany need to be explained: why do liberal politics in those countries still lead to high-speed rail?

Florida may have failed in the same way, but then they succeeded.

https://www.gobrightline.com/

Texas' issues seem to mainly be in the DFW area.  Otherwise, there is traffic to justify it.  Southwest Airlines started by serving the same routes.

As for rail in Europe, the answer is simple: the distances are much less.  Particularly if you think about "flyover country" in the US, and how much travel is between the coasts, vs. major European cities.  People still want to get to places quickly, but the hassle of air travel is only justified with longer distances.  You can fly much cheaper than taking high speed rail in Europe, but the trains are still full, because they are much more convenient.
I misread something about Brightline, thanks for the correction.  You've actually made a better point than Ezra Klein in his video: Florida has one high speed rail line, while California doesn't.  There is a second high speed rail project, Brightline West, that plans to connect Las Vegas to California (it relies on local metro to reach Los Angeles, only running high-speed rail to Rancho Cucamonga).

In Germany, high speed rail runs in segments from north to south, over 600 miles.  Those individual segments are justified by the cities they connect.  California's "phase 1" high speed rail planned to run almost 500 miles, connecting 12 cities from San Francisco to Los Angeles, and had one stop further south to Anaheim.  If many segments in Germany average 38 miles (61 km), that is comparable.

We also have high-speed rail on the East Coast since 2000 in Acela. Covers 457 miles. Top speed is 150 MPH. Serves about 3 million passengers a year, and while the Northeast Regional serves 9 million passengers a year.

California serves about 12 million riders per year with its current train network.

150 mph is not considered high speed rail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail

I guess tell that to Acela? It’s a high speed tilting train. Shares conventional tracks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_train

RetiredAt63

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2025, 06:15:20 AM »

150 mph is not considered high speed rail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail

It would be here.  Freight trains have priority on our rail lines, so it is not uncommon for a passenger train to have to wait sometimes.  My DD used to take the train from Ottawa to Toronto regularly and she rarely arrived at the stated arrival time.  And it was not fast even when it was on time. 

moustachebar

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2025, 08:22:06 AM »
Obstructionism is only part of the problem. Part of this is our actual ability to build and fund. It is not political and is bipartisan, though it has roots in politics.

Our public works and infrastructure process and institutions don't have institutional knowledge or ability, and turn to the private sector. It's sort of like the healthcare system where we solved the problem by letting corporations benefit. Everyone can get coverage, the insurers are happy, the doctors and hospitals and national debt are not.

No agency has in-house experts, as both public agencies and private companies once did. Both once had staffs who could plan effectively and efficiently in-house, draw up contract docs, and let work to contractors who would bid to build it, or sometimes to design and build it, in the conventional bid-build practice.

Now we turn to consultants for everything, and the consultants in turn have very little location specific expertise. This happens at planning stages for operation and construction, and again during construction. All design and construction work is huge design-build joint ventures that guarantee profits for the consultants even when nothing is built. No one is ever at risk.

They also have little stable funding. All these agencies had their funding cut over the years to reduce pension obligations and because "government can't do anything right". What ensued was a huge handout to private design and construction firms in the AEC industry.

It is really hard to plan and build when you don't know if the funding will materialize. Some agencies still issue bonds for specific projects but when it gets politicized it's a mess. In addition, as funds dwindle, agencies focus what elected officials want in return for the support the agency does get. For transit agencies they also focus on unprofitable routes and service to function like a welfare agency. As you would expect, when a service provides the bare minimum, it gets abandoned by anyone with choice, reducing revenues further.

And some public works projects don't begin with actual need or cost-benefit analysis. Often there's a big push to do a project because a mayor or governor or county official selects it. If a transit agency has three or four needs, they seldom do the invisible thing that provides an incremental upgrade if there is instead a big expensive legacy project an elected official can hype. Same with highways and bridges.

There is also cost inflation due to known future lack of maintenance or known future inability to fund/ build more. Projects get overbuilt because everyone knows there will be no money to care for the thing once built. They get overdesigned because everyone knows that if you don't put in the capacity now, which you may never need, you will wait 30 years for any funding to address it. Instead of good engineering, fit for purpose and efficient, you get projects that are massive, and you get few of them. No reason to change: the agencies cannot and just want to keep the tap on even if only dripping; the AEC industry, dominated by the big design-build firms, are well compensated; and political leaders don't know enough to challenge any of it. It's sort of bipartisan patronage politics I guess.

I know someone who worked for one of these design consortiums once on a late project phase. The budget kept shrinking due to cost overruns on earlier phases (designed by the engineering consortium) and the cost kept increasing. The solution was to bring in an oversight consultant to the engineers, and the engineers' design fee was cut to pay for the oversight. No additional funding was in the pipeline for design or construction, and a new presidential administration redirected transit funds for the upcoming year, so in the end nothing in the later phases was built due to the earlier overruns. The contractor was made whole. The consultants were OK, especially the oversight folks, who ended up paid to oversee nothing. The agency got only the first phases and an incomplete project. All declared victory and ridership never reached expected levels because the thing didn't do what it was designed to do and didn't go where it was designed to go.

The whole thing is bipartisan at this point, but has its roots in the increased role of government in building infrastructure that came with the auto era and demise of railroads, followed by distrust in government and its expertise during Reagan-Bush-Clinton. This will last as long as we believe government = bad/ private = good, as long as we fund this public-private nonsense that privatizes gains and socializes losses, and as long as our politicians are happier to strangle government ability and expertise at the expense of getting things done.

For actual detailed analysis check out the Pedestrian Observations blog by Alon Levy, subtitled "For Walkability and Good Transit, and Against Boondoggles and Pollution". https://pedestrianobservations.com/author/abstractnonsense/

Unfortunately other countries seem to be adopting our system, under lobbying by multinational construction firms and US-led development expertise.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2025, 08:52:40 AM »
"Acela trains are the fastest in the Americas, reaching 150 miles per hour (240 km/h) (qualifying as high-speed rail), but only over 49.9 miles (80.3 km) of the 457-mile (735 km) route."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela

High speeds on 11% of the route may be the reason it isn't considered high-speed rail.  Even if we agreed, it would still pose a problem for the video at the start of this thread.  The claim was that Democratic-led states had problems that prevent high-speed rail, and Acela transits across multiple states that are majority Democrat.  So it would refute their main point, if that 11% of the route was enough to qualify as high-speed rail.

Ezra Klein's point in the video is that California's problems with high-speed rail are specific to Democrats in California and their policies.  ChpBstrd mentioned those policies might be the same across the U.S., which would refute his point.  If various Republican states fail to implement high-speed rail, that would also remove blame from California policies.  If the problem is liberal policies, that doesn't explain how more liberal countries like France implemented high-speed rail.  If the problem is corruption, that doesn't explain why more-corrupt Italy built high-speed rail while the U.S. didn't.

I think the explanation is population density.  Japan invented high speed rail first, and is at the top of the list.  Other countries that built high-speed rail have higher population densities than countries which haven't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

Japan: 880 / sq mi
Germany: 630 / sq mi
Italy: 520 / sq mi
France: 320 / sq mi

United States: 98 / sq mi
Canada: 12 / sq mi
Australia: 9 / sq mi

Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2025, 10:19:43 AM »
Yeah I agree @MustacheAndaHalf I wouldn’t blame that on Democrats.

Quote
The whole thing is bipartisan at this point, but has its roots in the increased role of government in building infrastructure that came with the auto era and demise of railroads, followed by distrust in government and its expertise during Reagan-Bush-Clinton. This will last as long as we believe government = bad/ private = good, as long as we fund this public-private nonsense that privatizes gains and socializes losses, and as long as our politicians are happier to strangle government ability and expertise at the expense of getting things done.

For actual detailed analysis check out the Pedestrian Observations blog by Alon Levy, subtitled "For Walkability and Good Transit, and Against Boondoggles and Pollution". https://pedestrianobservations.com/author/abstractnonsense/

Agree!

ChpBstrd

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2025, 01:55:00 PM »
Well, Republicans don't want high-speed rail or city subways. They see them as a waste of public funds, and try to cancel them at every attempt, in favor of highway expansions.

Thus the failures in California and New York raise questions about why Democrats haven't or can't solve the problems that plague their own infrastructure projects - the priorities they say they want to build. Could you succeed if we removed most state political obstacles? No, you could not. Why?

My interpretation: Party capture by the lawyers who profit from obstruction.

reeshau

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2025, 08:37:04 PM »
Thus the failures in California and New York raise questions about why Democrats haven't or can't solve the problems that plague their own infrastructure projects - the priorities they say they want to build. Could you succeed if we removed most state political obstacles? No, you could not. Why?

My interpretation: Party capture by the lawyers who profit from obstruction.

I just went through a class that included a Harvard case study of the California train project.  It's a boondoggle because they went for the pedestal, rather than the monkey.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2025, 09:36:46 PM »
Well, Republicans don't want high-speed rail or city subways. They see them as a waste of public funds, and try to cancel them at every attempt, in favor of highway expansions.

Thus the failures in California and New York raise questions about why Democrats haven't or can't solve the problems that plague their own infrastructure projects - the priorities they say they want to build. Could you succeed if we removed most state political obstacles? No, you could not. Why?

My interpretation: Party capture by the lawyers who profit from obstruction.

What’s the New York failure? NYC has tons of trains, subways, and high-speed rail.

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2025, 08:35:38 AM »

ChpBstrd

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2025, 10:20:49 AM »
Well, Republicans don't want high-speed rail or city subways. They see them as a waste of public funds, and try to cancel them at every attempt, in favor of highway expansions.

Thus the failures in California and New York raise questions about why Democrats haven't or can't solve the problems that plague their own infrastructure projects - the priorities they say they want to build. Could you succeed if we removed most state political obstacles? No, you could not. Why?

My interpretation: Party capture by the lawyers who profit from obstruction.

What’s the New York failure? NYC has tons of trains, subways, and high-speed rail.
See the Second Avenue subway expansion’s massive cost overruns.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2025, 10:33:01 AM »

Log

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2025, 11:10:37 AM »
Much discussion in this thread is seemingly missing the point, assuming that Ezra Klein of all people is some wolf in sheep’s clothing trying to dump people down some right-wing rabbit hole, as opposed to sincerely trying to make liberalism work better.

Please just go place a hold on the book at your local library. This could very well shape up to be the most important political discussion of this generation. Reading a slim ~200 page book about it is not a big ask before you start trying to argue with ideas you didn’t make any effort to understand.

One crucial point that may activate this crowd’s sympathies more than high speed rail: we need to update from 1970s obstructionism in order to decarbonize the economy. Texas has more renewable energy than California. Solar farms are being blocked by CEQA lawsuits. CEQA is a state law, not federal. You can’t just saw, “oh permitting is messed up everywhere.” It is, and people involved in the Abundance movement want to fix that. But it’s worst in California.

Here’s a good review: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/book-review-abundance?r=1ft9yp&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Noah Smith, the reviewer, points towards what I think may be the source of the misunderstanding:

Quote from: Noah Smith
Currently, most American policy debates are framed in terms of ideology — small government versus big government. Instead, Klein and Thompson, like the YIMBY movement that inspired them, want to reframe debates in terms of results. Who cares if new housing is social housing or market-rate housing, as long as people have affordable places to live? Why should cutting burdensome regulation and hiring more bureaucrats be seen as alternatives, instead of complementary approaches? And so on.

This is only one way that Klein and Thompson would have us focus on outputs instead of on inputs. Progressives love to focus on the number of dollars the government spends on high speed rail or green energy; Klein and Thompson would have us focus instead on how much actually gets built as a result of that spending. Progressives obsess over specifying which procedures government and the private sector have to follow whenever they build something; Klein and Thompson would rather we focus on the outcomes instead.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2025, 11:47:29 AM »
Noah Smith, the reviewer, points towards what I think may be the source of the misunderstanding:

Quote from: Noah Smith

...

This is only one way that Klein and Thompson would have us focus on outputs instead of on inputs. Progressives love to focus on the number of dollars the government spends on high speed rail or green energy; Klein and Thompson would have us focus instead on how much actually gets built as a result of that spending. Progressives obsess over specifying which procedures government and the private sector have to follow whenever they build something; Klein and Thompson would rather we focus on the outcomes instead.

Is there a different video by Ezra Klein focusing more on the cost per result?

Klein focuses on the failure of high-speed rail in California.  Inefficient spending makes an appearance, but only barely.  And he muddies the water by praising China's success, ignoring how China can simply arrest anyone who opposes government plans.  He doesn't explain why Republican states have the same problem as California.

Up above, I also highlighted the key distinction between countries with and without high-speed rail: population density.  How did he not consider that?  Japan, France, Germany and Italy all have higher population density than the U.S. (by far).  Countries like Canada and Australia, not mentioned in the video, also don't have high-speed rail beyond the planning stages - and have low population density.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2025, 11:59:44 AM »
Noah Smith, the reviewer, points towards what I think may be the source of the misunderstanding:

Quote from: Noah Smith

...

This is only one way that Klein and Thompson would have us focus on outputs instead of on inputs. Progressives love to focus on the number of dollars the government spends on high speed rail or green energy; Klein and Thompson would have us focus instead on how much actually gets built as a result of that spending. Progressives obsess over specifying which procedures government and the private sector have to follow whenever they build something; Klein and Thompson would rather we focus on the outcomes instead.

Is there a different video by Ezra Klein focusing more on the cost per result?

Klein focuses on the failure of high-speed rail in California.  Inefficient spending makes an appearance, but only barely.  And he muddies the water by praising China's success, ignoring how China can simply arrest anyone who opposes government plans.  He doesn't explain why Republican states have the same problem as California.

Up above, I also highlighted the key distinction between countries with and without high-speed rail: population density.  How did he not consider that?  Japan, France, Germany and Italy all have higher population density than the U.S. (by far).  Countries like Canada and Australia, not mentioned in the video, also don't have high-speed rail beyond the planning stages - and have low population density.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

I agree the population density point is a good one.

Let’s not forget Mexico, which has pulled off a major electric train project with the Tren Maya (currently running partially, and in progress) and is about to build a freight train passage from the Gulf to the Pacific.

Thx for the book recommendation, @Log.


Fru-Gal

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2025, 12:05:58 PM »
I just looked it up and I’m actually excited that I could live to see some of California HSR on a route that I have travelled: The San Joaquins train, which is how you can get to Yosemite from the South or North. (You take the thruway bus from Merced, a guaranteed Amtrak connection, and get into the park for free.)

Apparently they will replace the existing, very popular Merced to Bakersfield route with high-speed train. Currently there is a beautiful new train set running this route (I just took it — it looked to be the same new train set I rode from Kansas City to St. Louis). From Bakersfield you take a 2-hour bus to Los Angeles Union Station. The ride is very nice, and Amtrak thru way buses and drivers are excellent.

I have not yet ridden Acela, which is not included in the USA Rail Pass.

ChpBstrd

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2025, 12:38:16 PM »
Population density may justify mass transit projects, but it also increases the cost and political obstacles. New York City subways may cost billions per mile, mostly because there are so many people affected and so many pieces of existing infrastructure to tear out or work around. The little low speed trains that shuttle people around rural Germany or Japan, in contrast, cost a lot less because you’re basically just compensating farmers for a few acres of pasture and doing most of the line at ground level.

Perhaps one problem for the US is that we only attempt the hardest, most bespoke projects, without gaining experience or building economies around the smaller, cheaper projects first.

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2025, 01:50:41 PM »
Population density may justify mass transit projects, but it also increases the cost and political obstacles. New York City subways may cost billions per mile, mostly because there are so many people affected and so many pieces of existing infrastructure to tear out or work around. The little low speed trains that shuttle people around rural Germany or Japan, in contrast, cost a lot less because you’re basically just compensating farmers for a few acres of pasture and doing most of the line at ground level.

We used to have those in the Midwest but the car companies bought them out and shut them down. My grandma used to talk about riding the "interurban" from her village into "town". It would have been the 1930s or 40s. Lots of midsized cities had trolley or light rail systems at that time too.

Just Joe

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2025, 02:23:41 PM »
We never had a trolley car here in our town but there was a bus that roamed between the rural small towns in this part of our state. The last train ended in the 1960s. That train connected to the whole national network.

We'd very much benefit from a modern two car commuter train running to the big international airport nearest us. Everyone I know that flies or has family that flies requires someone to drive them to the airport and then return to pick them up - if they don't leave their car there at $$$ cost per week. It's a drive and traffic there is lousy.

Our town still has functional tracks from here to near the airport. A train uses them occasionally to pick up cargo along the deadend line here and then return to the same big city where the airport is.

There is also alot of entertainment and shopping in the big metro. Wouldn't it be nice to visit for an event and ride home on the train?

Nope, if we don't stay over in the city(very, very rare), we drive home afterwards after midnight... Consequently we don't do that as often as we used to before the metro hit a growth spurt.

More traffic, higher event ticket prices, higher parking costs. It is easier than ever to choose to stay home. DW looked last night. ~$165 per ticket to see minor league baseball I think she said. We can drive to the nearby university and watch their baseball team for free.

Log

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2025, 09:23:53 PM »
Noah Smith, the reviewer, points towards what I think may be the source of the misunderstanding:

Quote from: Noah Smith

...

This is only one way that Klein and Thompson would have us focus on outputs instead of on inputs. Progressives love to focus on the number of dollars the government spends on high speed rail or green energy; Klein and Thompson would have us focus instead on how much actually gets built as a result of that spending. Progressives obsess over specifying which procedures government and the private sector have to follow whenever they build something; Klein and Thompson would rather we focus on the outcomes instead.

Is there a different video by Ezra Klein focusing more on the cost per result?

Klein focuses on the failure of high-speed rail in California.  Inefficient spending makes an appearance, but only barely.  And he muddies the water by praising China's success, ignoring how China can simply arrest anyone who opposes government plans.  He doesn't explain why Republican states have the same problem as California.

Up above, I also highlighted the key distinction between countries with and without high-speed rail: population density.  How did he not consider that?  Japan, France, Germany and Italy all have higher population density than the U.S. (by far).  Countries like Canada and Australia, not mentioned in the video, also don't have high-speed rail beyond the planning stages - and have low population density.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

HSR is just one example of blue state governance issues though. Listen to the first thing Ezra talks about in the video: California and New York are pricing out middle class people by failing to build housing. Texas and Florida and Arizona, meanwhile, build houses.

On high speed rail:

Saying, "Republican states also don't have high speed rail" is not a valid comparison. No Republican states have passed legislation and spent tens of billions of dollars. Red states don't want to build high speed rail. Blue states do, and yet they fail.

It is shameful that the Acela isn't true high speed rail. That rail corridor is one of the most densely populated and economically productive regions of the world.

Coastal California is densely populated. Saying the country doesn't have dense enough population is stupid. California does. Here is an example of someone actually talking about hypothetical HSR routes with more thoughtful analysis than "flyover country isn't densely populated," and, shocker, LA to SF and LA to San Diego are both incredibly viable HSR corridors.

And a final concluding note: criticizing failures of Democratic governance is not, by default, to the say that Republican governance is preferable. The entire point here is that Republicans are an unacceptable alternative, and so we need Democrats to do better. The time for excuses is past.

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2025, 02:56:43 AM »
Noah Smith, the reviewer, points towards what I think may be the source of the misunderstanding:

Quote from: Noah Smith

...

This is only one way that Klein and Thompson would have us focus on outputs instead of on inputs. Progressives love to focus on the number of dollars the government spends on high speed rail or green energy; Klein and Thompson would have us focus instead on how much actually gets built as a result of that spending. Progressives obsess over specifying which procedures government and the private sector have to follow whenever they build something; Klein and Thompson would rather we focus on the outcomes instead.

Is there a different video by Ezra Klein focusing more on the cost per result?

Klein focuses on the failure of high-speed rail in California.  Inefficient spending makes an appearance, but only barely.  And he muddies the water by praising China's success, ignoring how China can simply arrest anyone who opposes government plans.  He doesn't explain why Republican states have the same problem as California.

Up above, I also highlighted the key distinction between countries with and without high-speed rail: population density.  How did he not consider that?  Japan, France, Germany and Italy all have higher population density than the U.S. (by far).  Countries like Canada and Australia, not mentioned in the video, also don't have high-speed rail beyond the planning stages - and have low population density.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

HSR is just one example of blue state governance issues though. Listen to the first thing Ezra talks about in the video: California and New York are pricing out middle class people by failing to build housing. Texas and Florida and Arizona, meanwhile, build houses.

On high speed rail:

Saying, "Republican states also don't have high speed rail" is not a valid comparison. No Republican states have passed legislation and spent tens of billions of dollars. Red states don't want to build high speed rail. Blue states do, and yet they fail.

It is shameful that the Acela isn't true high speed rail. That rail corridor is one of the most densely populated and economically productive regions of the world.

Coastal California is densely populated. Saying the country doesn't have dense enough population is stupid. California does. Here is an example of someone actually talking about hypothetical HSR routes with more thoughtful analysis than "flyover country isn't densely populated," and, shocker, LA to SF and LA to San Diego are both incredibly viable HSR corridors.

And a final concluding note: criticizing failures of Democratic governance is not, by default, to the say that Republican governance is preferable. The entire point here is that Republicans are an unacceptable alternative, and so we need Democrats to do better. The time for excuses is past.
That's not true about Republican states - both Florida and Texas planned to build high-speed rail.  In Florida's case, the government failed (just like California), but a corporation (Brightline) succeeded where the state failed.  Texas is in the planning stages.

One expert opinion I heard was that the primary obstacle to housing is local laws.  Not even state law, but local housing legislation.  Once people own a house, it is in their financial interest to block new housing.  They inflate demand by keeping it away from their property.  I believe there are examples in the U.S. with almost no zoning restrictions where housing isn't a problem, but I'm not that familiar with the topic.  But my impression is that "not in my backyard" (NIMBY) is a big obstacle to affordable housing, rather than policies at the state level.

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2025, 03:01:12 AM »
Quote from: Noah Smith

... Progressives love to focus on the number of dollars the government spends on high speed rail or green energy ...

Klein focuses on the failure of high-speed rail in California.
...
Up above, I also highlighted the key distinction between countries with and without high-speed rail: population density.
...

I agree the population density point is a good one.

Let’s not forget Mexico, which has pulled off a major electric train project with the Tren Maya (currently running partially, and in progress) and is about to build a freight train passage from the Gulf to the Pacific.

Thx for the book recommendation, @Log.
I've trimmed the quoted sections to highlight that the discussion was on high-speed rail, not trains in general.  Tren Maya's speed is a bit faster than cars, but well below high-speed rail.  I believe freight trains in the U.S. are found in both red and blue states, so there aren't any problematic policies to criticize or overcome.

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2025, 06:10:57 AM »
Coastal California is densely populated. Saying the country doesn't have dense enough population is stupid. California does. Here is an example of someone actually talking about hypothetical HSR routes with more thoughtful analysis than "flyover country isn't densely populated," and, shocker, LA to SF and LA to San Diego are both incredibly viable HSR corridors.

And a final concluding note: criticizing failures of Democratic governance is not, by default, to the say that Republican governance is preferable. The entire point here is that Republicans are an unacceptable alternative, and so we need Democrats to do better. The time for excuses is past.

The main point of the Harvard Business School study was that, to reach San Francisco, the rail line would have to cross mountains in an active fault zone--an engineering challenge with no answer, currently.  The rail line has cost $128B so far (from an initial estimate of $33B) without answering that question.  They have been caught in a tremendous case of sunk cost fallacy because they went after the low hanging fruit (easy track miles) without addressing the critical need (actually connecting the biggest cities)

You are totally right on the last point; it isn't to say that the red state way is better, at all.

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2025, 08:28:53 AM »
I'm still not seeing a liberal answer to this:

Wintergreen78

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Re: The Liberal Answer to Elon Musk
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2025, 08:59:11 AM »
Noah Smith, the reviewer, points towards what I think may be the source of the misunderstanding:

Quote from: Noah Smith

...

This is only one way that Klein and Thompson would have us focus on outputs instead of on inputs. Progressives love to focus on the number of dollars the government spends on high speed rail or green energy; Klein and Thompson would have us focus instead on how much actually gets built as a result of that spending. Progressives obsess over specifying which procedures government and the private sector have to follow whenever they build something; Klein and Thompson would rather we focus on the outcomes instead.

Is there a different video by Ezra Klein focusing more on the cost per result?

Klein focuses on the failure of high-speed rail in California.  Inefficient spending makes an appearance, but only barely.  And he muddies the water by praising China's success, ignoring how China can simply arrest anyone who opposes government plans.  He doesn't explain why Republican states have the same problem as California.

Up above, I also highlighted the key distinction between countries with and without high-speed rail: population density.  How did he not consider that?  Japan, France, Germany and Italy all have higher population density than the U.S. (by far).  Countries like Canada and Australia, not mentioned in the video, also don't have high-speed rail beyond the planning stages - and have low population density.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

HSR is just one example of blue state governance issues though. Listen to the first thing Ezra talks about in the video: California and New York are pricing out middle class people by failing to build housing. Texas and Florida and Arizona, meanwhile, build houses.

On high speed rail:

Saying, "Republican states also don't have high speed rail" is not a valid comparison. No Republican states have passed legislation and spent tens of billions of dollars. Red states don't want to build high speed rail. Blue states do, and yet they fail.

It is shameful that the Acela isn't true high speed rail. That rail corridor is one of the most densely populated and economically productive regions of the world.

Coastal California is densely populated. Saying the country doesn't have dense enough population is stupid. California does. Here is an example of someone actually talking about hypothetical HSR routes with more thoughtful analysis than "flyover country isn't densely populated," and, shocker, LA to SF and LA to San Diego are both incredibly viable HSR corridors.

And a final concluding note: criticizing failures of Democratic governance is not, by default, to the say that Republican governance is preferable. The entire point here is that Republicans are an unacceptable alternative, and so we need Democrats to do better. The time for excuses is past.
That's not true about Republican states - both Florida and Texas planned to build high-speed rail.  In Florida's case, the government failed (just like California), but a corporation (Brightline) succeeded where the state failed.  Texas is in the planning stages.

One expert opinion I heard was that the primary obstacle to housing is local laws.  Not even state law, but local housing legislation.  Once people own a house, it is in their financial interest to block new housing.  They inflate demand by keeping it away from their property.  I believe there are examples in the U.S. with almost no zoning restrictions where housing isn't a problem, but I'm not that familiar with the topic.  But my impression is that "not in my backyard" (NIMBY) is a big obstacle to affordable housing, rather than policies at the state level.

California is a messy place, and there are plenty of things I see living here that I’d like to see changed. But, I’m always baffled by people who describe its problems as a crisis or suggest it needs massive changes because it is failing. It has had the biggest economy in the US since the beginning of the 1970’s. Texas’s economy is about 2/3 the size of California’s (2.7 trillion to 4.1 trillion). In 1990 Texas was, about 6/10ths (1 trillion to 1.7 trillion). So both states have grown at about the same rate for the last 30 years.