The Great Chore Divide and Women vs Men Interpretation of Chores

[sol]

I actually only meant like literally leaving the game to open the door and go to my car to retrieve the groceries or get a pizza box, like literally for practicality's sake so I'm not walking back multiple times and lugging around 10lbs of stuff!

Sounds like your SO is kind of jerk.  I'm sorry.

[bogart]

He said if one of us cooks the other should do dishes. So why do I actually clean off my table tops and clear the dish rack or washer for his dishes when I cook yet he like only cooks and imo leaves a mess and wonders why I'm commenting. I mean am I the only one that hates touching a sticky counter. Yea, we should pick & choose our battles but even little things like opening envelopes and boxes yet leaving it there instead of tossing it in the trash...

...

If I bring it up he's like I'm being negative. Well, yes, of course I can continue to never talk about this which means there's nothing wrong, and continuing doing everyth mentioned above... But yea I'll reread the suggestions on tactics, tone, the whole science behind it all, etc. And if i could afford counseling I might as well pay for the maid.

If you cook and he leaves the kitchen a mess and it's not his turn to cook next time (i.e. if you're not using an alternating-turns system), and he "doesn't want to talk about it," why don't you just say next time that happens, "I'm going to take myself out to get some dinner, because the kitchen's too messy for me to want to deal with it.  See you later."  Decline his company (if he suggests joining you), as we've already established that he doesn't want to talk about what you want to talk about, and go treat yourself to a decent (not necessarily expensive) dinner.  Repeat as necessary.  Either he'll decide he wants to enjoy your company and will reform, or he won't, which provides useful information too.

[okits]

[If your partner is an inconsiderate clod, you should say so.  Maybe someone here has some advice on how to deal with inconsiderate clods.  My advice would be to not start a family with one.

+1

Sorry, OP, probably not what you want to hear, but my best advice is: do not enter a domestic partnership with someone who isn't a good domestic partner and isn't willing to put in effort to improve.  Do not enter into a binding joint-parenting situation with someone who hasn't demonstrated the requisite responsibility and unselfishness needed to be a good parent, nor the effort required to change that.  If things are already difficult with just the two of you, it will feel impossible when you add a baby into the mix.

[MrsCoolCat]

If you cook and he leaves the kitchen a mess and it's not his turn to cook next time (i.e. if you're not using an alternating-turns system), and he "doesn't want to talk about it," why don't you just say next time that happens, "I'm going to take myself out to get some dinner, because the kitchen's too messy for me to want to deal with it.  See you later."  Decline his company (if he suggests joining you), as we've already established that he doesn't want to talk about what you want to talk about, and go treat yourself to a decent (not necessarily expensive) dinner.  Repeat as necessary.  Either he'll decide he wants to enjoy your company and will reform, or he won't, which provides useful information too.

Oh I've already thought about this one. I'm just generally Mustachian in terms of eating out. I don't really eat out at expensive places but I do desire to every now and then bc I love food. I should just MAKE myself do this one and just buy something from Whole Foods or whatever. Let him starve or eat at Taco Bell which it's more so the latter!

[MrsCoolCat]

This seems like a bigger problem than gendered division of labor.

Disregarding sex this is why I HATE video games and associate very bad unproductivity to it. I understand it's a way to unwind, like cable or shopping BUT every time I see him doing it I just think about how I want to throw the groceries at him! So yes, I shop for the groceries and bring them into the house. Not always but particularly when I shop at Aldi (no bags). We didn't use to grocery shop together but recently he'll join me in a few runs (Walmart and Trader Joe's) as our way of getting out of the house. And to be fair he usually pays for the groceries. I just think he should be penalized for not opening the door if I got the groceries. He once said it's bc I am better at grocery shopping (for bargains) and that I enjoy doing it. I may like doing it more than him but it doesn't discredit that I am doing yet another chore. JUST SAYING.

[MrsCoolCat]

Sorry, OP, probably not what you want to hear, but my best advice is: do not enter a domestic partnership with someone who isn't a good domestic partner and isn't willing to put in effort to improve.

That's simply it. I try to improve myself (intrinsically motivated). I just ask the same from him. Please improve yourself so that when we do have kids we're both going to be good 50/50 parents and not burn out the other. BUT I will say that my approach and communication could use improvement also. It just takes two to make a relationship work.

Do not enter into a binding joint-parenting situation with someone who hasn't demonstrated the requisite responsibility and unselfishness needed to be a good parent, nor the effort required to change that.  If things are already difficult with just the two of you, it will feel impossible when you add a baby into the mix.

This is what I repeatedly fear that he does not understand, fathom or care to think about (perhaps until it happens which bears some logic). I'm a planner. Maybe he's just young (or younger). Maybe I'm just 31 going on 45 mentally. Like my friend who cleaned on behalf of her clueless lazy brother, I think my SO would make a good father but tbh I doubt his skills at also being a good husband bc I don't want to become my mother. I'd rather not have kids unless we can hire the maids, nannies, eat out (screw cooking to be Mustachian if I can avoid a chore nag!), etc. WHAT IS MY RESOLUTION? Am I thinking TOO MUCH into the future??

[NoraLenderbee]

This is the issue. I would be bothered, too. It doesn't matter whether justajane can carry 42 lbs. It doesn't matter if it takes only 5 minutes. The husband had a chore to do, a responsibility, and he did it completely half-assed. He did only 1/3 of it, then left it there, then after being reminded did the next 1/3 of it, then had to be reminded again, then finished it. That's not adult behavior and it's not living up to your responsibilities.

If he really had a problem with the task, he could use his words and say, "This task is a pain; can we think of a way to change it?"

I'm sort of wondering how it became his responsibility - whether that was an actual discussion, where he explicitly agreed to always be the person who puts away the kitty litter, or whether she just assumed it's his job because she's never done it. 

We don't know that. But the fact is that he got the bag out of the car and left it on the living room floor, which  was NOT where it belonged. Maybe it wasn't explicitly "his" job, but the point is, he did half of it and left it there. That's a total teenager thing.

[bogart]

Oh I've already thought about this one. I'm just generally Mustachian in terms of eating out. I don't really eat out at expensive places but I do desire to every now and then bc I love food. I should just MAKE myself do this one and just buy something from Whole Foods or whatever. Let him starve or eat at Taco Bell which it's more so the latter!

Well -- it sounds like you want thing to change and the strategies you've tried haven't worked.  The one I describe is pretty painless (if, like me, you enjoy time to yourself and food others have prepared), so arguably worth a try.  It's not set up as a "forever" rule or an explicit challenge to your SO, so you can just derive the short-term benefit (escapism, but pleasant), or you can persist/pursue other strategies if it doesn't lead to the change you hope it will.

I will say that in my household there is "no such thing as a video game without a pause button."  Because -- well, we prioritize human relationships over recreational activities.  Of course, some games don't, in fact, have pause buttons, so, more accurately there are games with pause buttons, and games that you have to close down if it is time to pause play.  If you are 8 years old (our son), you are (usually) allowed to cause your character to die a dramatic quick death before you shut down.

Does your DH himself want children?

Unrelated, how is his shoulder doing?

[Cpa Cat]

This is what I repeatedly fear that he does not understand, fathom or care to think about (perhaps until it happens which bears some logic). I'm a planner. Maybe he's just young (or younger). Maybe I'm just 31 going on 45 mentally. Like my friend who cleaned on behalf of her clueless lazy brother, I think my SO would make a good father but tbh I doubt his skills at also being a good husband bc I don't want to become my mother. I'd rather not have kids unless we can hire the maids, nannies, eat out (screw cooking to be Mustachian if I can avoid a chore nag!), etc. WHAT IS MY RESOLUTION? Am I thinking TOO MUCH into the future??

I don't think you're thinking too far into the future. The fact is, you're unhappy and resentful right now. So there's some room for improvement right now! I mentioned in the other thread that my husband decided we should hire a maid service after a failed attempt at more evenly divided cleaning (his toilet started growing some kind of crusty black mold and spiders crawled on him sometimes when he sat down on it).

Note that he did not ask me to clean more. It was up to me whether to accept maids or inflict additional chores upon myself. I let him hire the maids. Now neither of us cleans the house.

This is a essentially a frugality forum. A lot of people here aren't behind hiring someone to clean your house. But is it really worth it to be resentful every day?

Regarding the kids - here's the thing: You know how it's going to be. He's not going to be fully involved. I've known a lot of women who knew this about their SO and went ahead and had kids anyway, figuring it would fix itself. Lo and behold, it didn't. If you decide to have kids anyway, then it's kind of on you. There's no point in being resentful about his lack of participation. If you know it, and make the decision to have kids, and then resent him for what you knew was going to happen - you're just pretending to be a victim when that drama is self-inflicted. You can hire a nanny to lighten your load, but that doesn't equal him participating.

If all what's bothering you is the labor falling on you, then that's easy to resolve by outsourcing the labor. If what's really bothering you is a lack of participation from your partner, then you can't fix that as easily.

[onecoolcat]

I don't think this is fair at all and I feel like I was needlessly dragged through the mud here. 

To come to my own defense, I work many more hours each week and get paid significantly more.  I pay for all of our living expenses.  In exchange we talked and she was just to do the dishes because I hate washes dishes, she was fine with it.  I had a major injury recently that required surgery and immobilized my shoulder, which is frozen, for the past two months.  Since then I haven't cooked as much.  Prior to my injury I cooked more often than her because I like cooking and I think I'm pretty good at it, she agrees.  I haven't cooked much since the injury because I have issues extending my dominate arm out and can just now get to the point where i can lift heavier objects.

As far as chores go, I think its much closer split down the middle than she implies.  We aren't super tidy but we sweep the house together.  I can't stand dirty floors so I'm more prone to sweep than she is.  She does do the majority of the dishes and grocery shopping but everything else is split for the most part.  I'm in charge of driving us to work when we carpool (its a 1.5hour r/t each day), my share of sweeping, patio maintenance, handyman stuff, car stuff, computer stuff, feeding the cat, laundry, taking out the garbage (did this less when i had my injury), filling water bottles, cleaning toilets, and cooking my fair share.  She does all of the dishes, her fair share of cooking, sweeping, organizing receipts and other paperwork, grocery shopping, and cleaning the shower.

I do play a video game that can't be paused and yeah I play more than I should.  Its what I do when I want some me time.  I think that's what encouraged this thread because I have played a lot this week.

tldr:  I do my fair share!

[sol]

Oooh, the maligned man speaks!  Is this going to be like a passive aggressive marital dispute conducted through a public internet forum?

[ahoy]

Like with children, you have to pick your battles.  Anger issues and rising stress levels over housework is just not worth it. 

[MrsCoolCat]

I will take it off board but appreciate the tips, advice, etc. MMM members. You guys are my version of marital counseling.

[ender]

Oooh, the maligned man speaks!  Is this going to be like a passive aggressive marital dispute conducted through a public internet forum?

It's particularly interesting to me that OP decided to post here anyways, in such a passive aggressive fashion when the person the entire post is directed at frequents the forum..

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Oooh, the maligned man speaks!  Is this going to be like a passive aggressive marital dispute conducted through a public internet forum?

It's particularly interesting to me that OP decided to post here anyways, in such a passive aggressive fashion when the person the entire post is directed at frequents the forum..

Yeah, I was wondering about that. And the injury thing seemed relevant but was hidden.

OP, I agree you and your husband aren't ready to have children. This is a horrible way to communicate concerns, and you're going to need strong communication when you have a baby.

[okits]

I will take it off board but appreciate the tips, advice, etc. MMM members. You guys are my version of marital counseling.

MCC, OCC, I hope this has opened up a productive dialogue between the two of you.  Every forum member has a story and opinion, but what matters in this instance is what's said and done between the two of you. 

[LadyStache in Baja]

Wow, the plot thickens! 

See MrsCoolCat, he sweeps because a dirty floor bothers him.  Maybe you don't even notice so you don't appreciate it.  There's likely a lot of other things he does that you don't notice because you don't care about them.

In your OP you said you just want to feel appreciated.  MrCoolCat, do you appreciate the slack she's taken up since your injury!?  Tell her!

[bogart]

I had a major injury recently that required surgery and immobilized my shoulder, which is frozen, for the past two months. 

I did remember that, you'll notice I asked about it.  Actually, I've been wondering how you were doing.  I had (more or less) the same injury you had, and surgery, and am pretty confident I was entirely useless for at least 3 months.  I remember feeling annoyed a month or two after surgery that my DH imagined I could operate a knife well enough to slice a peach (I am not kidding; also for the record I had taken care of him post hip surgery, also a months-long healing thing, so have some basis for believing he might have returned the favor with greater care than he did.  But I digress.). 

Funny, too, my DH cares that the floors get swept/vacuumed, which I am almost entirely indifferent to -- who cares if the surface that we walk on is clean (don't worry, rhetorical question). 

Anyway, long story short, hope you two are able to get on the same page, or close enough.  I will say that like OCC, I work many more hours each week and get paid significantly more [than my DH; he is RE and works 0 hours for pay...], and I still do (and manage) plenty of household chores.  For whatever that's worth.

[Jakejake]

WHAT? This was all posted on a forum where you know he hangs out online? Nooooooo  nonononono. I thought this was anonymously asking for advice and secretly venting not some kinda facebooky drama thing in a community that he's part of. The OP should have to wear a signature line that says "31 going on 16 mentally" for a month as punishment.

[Basenji]

WHAT? This was all posted on a forum where you know he hangs out online? Nooooooo  nonononono. I thought this was anonymously asking for advice and secretly venting not some kinda facebooky drama thing in a community that he's part of. The OP should have to wear a signature line that says "31 going on 16 mentally" for a month as punishment.

Seconded.

Jesus Mary Joseph...I've got nothing. Good luck with that! I'm out.

[LAGuy]

n/m

[Breadwinner]

I am a woman with a self-identified slob of a male partner. After many a frank discussion about the unequal distribution of labor in the household, I have essentially widdled down the  domestic chore schedule to the bare minimum. I have learned to accept that the house is somewhat cluttered and dusty, but we are each doing as much as we are comfortable and or inspired to do, and it is working for now. Maybe once I am FI the floors will get mopped. In the meantime, who gives a shit?
 

[daymare]

Wow, this thread.  Hope you two are able to have some productive discussions on this topic in private.

The larger topic of household/parental responsibilities in hetero relationships is an interesting one.  I personally (as a woman) am wildly concerned about maintaining an equal labor divide with my husband when kids are in the mix.  (And yes, we discuss this frequently.)  I find the cultural dialogue around parenting to be really problematic (women's most meaningful role is as mothers, men are incompetent at caring for their own children, ick to both).  Some study I read recently showed that expectations pre-parenting are that things will be more equal than they end up being (with people reverting to more traditional roles).  This thread prompted my talking to my husband about whether I was being sexist by having him pull our suitcase while we were traveling.  (He's clearly stronger than me ... but we're clearly both strong enough to pull a suitcase, and there's no reason why I should expect him to do it.)  I want him to point out to me when I do stuff like this.  I made it a point to pull the suitcase for the rest of the trip.

I think it's important to realize that it's not always easy to be compassionate and egalitarian and look out for your partner's needs equally to your own ... and times of stress (which parenting certainly entails) only make it harder.  If your husband isn't acting in a way that fits both of your preferences for HH duty allocation ... it's very unlikely he'll change and do more work after kids.  I'm waiting a while to have a kid (and only want one) because it's a huge concern of mine that I'll bear the brunt of the work, and our division will be unequal, which would be very bad and unhappy for me.  And this is all while having an amazing partner who is objectively better at cleaning and cooking than me, who is a feminist and very much enjoys kids, and with a division of labor that is currently equal. (It really helps to have a minimalist apartment/not a lot of stuff, so there's not much cleaning to do generally.)

Some thoughts (from my own experience and elsewhere) on how to be equals in your relationship and HH duties, if that's what you strive for:
1) As said above - minimize the HH labor needed, period.  Declutter, donate stuff, keep things more minimal, and there's less to clean.
2) Divide some tasks completely: ie, I do EVERYTHING with finances (bills, taxes, CCs, travel hacking, tracking spending, investing), and he does everything with the car (we have one car, it was originally his).  So we don't ever argue about who does these tasks.
3) Take on tasks strategically: Only I get our mail because it would drive me crazy for him to leave junk mail and not throw it out right away.  So I take on the task, because it's better if I just do it.
4) Agree to some schemas: For us, if one person cooks dinner, the other does the dishes.  We both agree that's fair.  This excludes when he cooks a huge batch of food because he's super messy and uses way more dishes than needed and doesn't clean up along the way, like me.  But we generally keep to it.
5) It's ok to pass on labor-intensive things that only your partner cares about.  For example, while I love meat, I eat pretty vegetarian at home and love to have soups and salads.  My husband wants meat more often, so he'll be the one to make pork roasts and lamb etc that we have frozen in our freezer from Costco.  I see this as helping us stay at an equitable equilibrium.  I do cook meat too, but when he wants it more often, the onus is on him to make it (which he happily does).
6) Try to be helpful and charitable to your partner - if you're seeing  large imbalance over time, definitely talk.  But I find that not keeping score and trying to do nice things for my partner leads to him doing the same (ie, this morning I woke up to see he'd done all the dishes before going to work and made me a lunch).  You may feel you are doing more - be mindful and remember everything he does for you.

[Gin1984]

Wow, this thread.  Hope you two are able to have some productive discussions on this topic in private.

The larger topic of household/parental responsibilities in hetero relationships is an interesting one.  I personally (as a woman) am wildly concerned about maintaining an equal labor divide with my husband when kids are in the mix.  (And yes, we discuss this frequently.)  I find the cultural dialogue around parenting to be really problematic (women's most meaningful role is as mothers, men are incompetent at caring for their own children, ick to both).  Some study I read recently showed that expectations pre-parenting are that things will be more equal than they end up being (with people reverting to more traditional roles).  This thread prompted my talking to my husband about whether I was being sexist by having him pull our suitcase while we were traveling.  (He's clearly stronger than me ... but we're clearly both strong enough to pull a suitcase, and there's no reason why I should expect him to do it.)  I want him to point out to me when I do stuff like this.  I made it a point to pull the suitcase for the rest of the trip.

I think it's important to realize that it's not always easy to be compassionate and egalitarian and look out for your partner's needs equally to your own ... and times of stress (which parenting certainly entails) only make it harder.  If your husband isn't acting in a way that fits both of your preferences for HH duty allocation ... it's very unlikely he'll change and do more work after kids.  I'm waiting a while to have a kid (and only want one) because it's a huge concern of mine that I'll bear the brunt of the work, and our division will be unequal, which would be very bad and unhappy for me.  And this is all while having an amazing partner who is objectively better at cleaning and cooking than me, who is a feminist and very much enjoys kids, and with a division of labor that is currently equal. (It really helps to have a minimalist apartment/not a lot of stuff, so there's not much cleaning to do generally.)

Some thoughts (from my own experience and elsewhere) on how to be equals in your relationship and HH duties, if that's what you strive for:
1) As said above - minimize the HH labor needed, period.  Declutter, donate stuff, keep things more minimal, and there's less to clean.
2) Divide some tasks completely: ie, I do EVERYTHING with finances (bills, taxes, CCs, travel hacking, tracking spending, investing), and he does everything with the car (we have one car, it was originally his).  So we don't ever argue about who does these tasks.
3) Take on tasks strategically: Only I get our mail because it would drive me crazy for him to leave junk mail and not throw it out right away.  So I take on the task, because it's better if I just do it.
4) Agree to some schemas: For us, if one person cooks dinner, the other does the dishes.  We both agree that's fair.  This excludes when he cooks a huge batch of food because he's super messy and uses way more dishes than needed and doesn't clean up along the way, like me.  But we generally keep to it.
5) It's ok to pass on labor-intensive things that only your partner cares about.  For example, while I love meat, I eat pretty vegetarian at home and love to have soups and salads.  My husband wants meat more often, so he'll be the one to make pork roasts and lamb etc that we have frozen in our freezer from Costco.  I see this as helping us stay at an equitable equilibrium.  I do cook meat too, but when he wants it more often, the onus is on him to make it (which he happily does).
6) Try to be helpful and charitable to your partner - if you're seeing  large imbalance over time, definitely talk.  But I find that not keeping score and trying to do nice things for my partner leads to him doing the same (ie, this morning I woke up to see he'd done all the dishes before going to work and made me a lunch).  You may feel you are doing more - be mindful and remember everything he does for you.

As a feminist and with a husband who is as well, in someway you will most likely to the bulk of the work and there will be a time of readjustment.  For example, if you are nursing there is not much he can do there.  Our way of compensated actually was caused by me working until right before my daughter was born.  I would have no energy by the time I got home so for the last three month he pretty much was on food and cleaning duty (in the evening).  Also, he had agreed to be in charge of the cloth diaper cleaning.  That mean that even though I was nursing and that put her care more on me, he took over an equal time amount.

[Chris22]

Couple thoughts, some have been touched on, some not:

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

-In my house, most chores are pretty evenly divided, things like laundry are done based on who is at home/not busy on a given weekend, cleaning is outsourced, grocery shopping is usually done by me but sometimes by my wife if she wants to, and childcare is split pretty evenly (we both work) via me dropping off and her picking up.  What is NEVER divided is outside chores; I mow/weed/etc every week, and clear the driveway in the winter.  I also do all the maintaining/fixing of stuff including cars, etc.  I don't have a problem with this (I LIKE the outside stuff) but don't bitch to me I didn't help with the laundry if I was outside mowing the lawn, etc, because that counts too. 

-If you want to go above and beyond, that's on you.  Cooking meals and cleaning them up is a shared responsibility.  Deciding you want to bake cookies or cupcakes or something at 8PM is on you, and I am not going to stop watching a football game to do your dishes.  That would be like me deciding to go work on my third (for fun) car and then demanding you put away my tools when I'm done.  Other "make work" projects include switching clothes for the season, re-organizing closets or cabinets, or making a very elaborate dinner.  I won't generally sit on my ass and watch my wife do the laundry or clean up dinner, but I have no problem laying on the couch while she moves sweaters upstairs and tank tops downstairs.  Not my job, not my problem.

-Occupying the 3y/o while the other party works counts as a "chore".  It's fun, and I rarely complain about it, but it's still not necessarily me doing what I want to do, or hindering my ability to accomplish chores.   

-You may ask me to do something, but I may not necessarily do it this second.  If you need it done this second, you probably need to do it yourself. 

-If I do all of my chores early (I generally do them Sunday morning, so that I can relax Sunday afternoon/evening) you do not get to give me the stink eye as I lay on the couch and watch football because you are doing your chores now. 


I should probably email this to my wife, but that would jeopardize the above-referenced-by-others BJs for the next couple weeks, so..no.

[Gin1984]

Couple thoughts, some have been touched on, some not:

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

-In my house, most chores are pretty evenly divided, things like laundry are done based on who is at home/not busy on a given weekend, cleaning is outsourced, grocery shopping is usually done by me but sometimes by my wife if she wants to, and childcare is split pretty evenly (we both work) via me dropping off and her picking up.  What is NEVER divided is outside chores; I mow/weed/etc every week, and clear the driveway in the winter.  I also do all the maintaining/fixing of stuff including cars, etc.  I don't have a problem with this (I LIKE the outside stuff) but don't bitch to me I didn't help with the laundry if I was outside mowing the lawn, etc, because that counts too. 

-If you want to go above and beyond, that's on you.  Cooking meals and cleaning them up is a shared responsibility.  Deciding you want to bake cookies or cupcakes or something at 8PM is on you, and I am not going to stop watching a football game to do your dishes.  That would be like me deciding to go work on my third (for fun) car and then demanding you put away my tools when I'm done.  Other "make work" projects include switching clothes for the season, re-organizing closets or cabinets, or making a very elaborate dinner.  I won't generally sit on my ass and watch my wife do the laundry or clean up dinner, but I have no problem laying on the couch while she moves sweaters upstairs and tank tops downstairs.  Not my job, not my problem.

-Occupying the 3y/o while the other party works counts as a "chore".  It's fun, and I rarely complain about it, but it's still not necessarily me doing what I want to do, or hindering my ability to accomplish chores.   

-You may ask me to do something, but I may not necessarily do it this second.  If you need it done this second, you probably need to do it yourself. 

-If I do all of my chores early (I generally do them Sunday morning, so that I can relax Sunday afternoon/evening) you do not get to give me the stink eye as I lay on the couch and watch football because you are doing your chores now. 


I should probably email this to my wife, but that would jeopardize the above-referenced-by-others BJs for the next couple weeks, so..no.

AGREED!!!!!   Childcare is a chore.

[beltim]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

[Chris22]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement. 

[beltim]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?

[Chris22]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?

Correct, I think that most people who are "serious gamers" spend LOTS of time on it, and it generally requires some pretty intense focus, versus something like watching a sport or show, and it's generally not a social activity aside from swearing at some 12 year old halfway across the country.

[Zikoris]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

What about someone who reads a lot? As an adult who both reads novels and plays video games, I feel qualified to say that they involve similar amounts of time and depth of involvement. Yet you rarely see readers being criticized. Or any other hobby that someone commits substantial time to.

[beltim]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?

Correct, I think that most people who are "serious gamers" spend LOTS of time on it, and it generally requires some pretty intense focus, versus something like watching a sport or show, and it's generally not a social activity aside from swearing at some 12 year old halfway across the country.

Okay. I strongly disagree with this, but maybe it's just because I'm not a "serious gamer" (like the vast majority of people who play video games).  I know there are a lot more benefits I get out of playing Madden than just watching a game on TV, and it's far more social too (thanks to being able to play online against friends who live far away).  So if that means you don't trust me, fine, but I think that reflects more on you than on me.

[Chris22]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

What about someone who reads a lot? As an adult who both reads novels and plays video games, I feel qualified to say that they involve similar amounts of time and depth of involvement. Yet you rarely see readers being criticized. Or any other hobby that someone commits substantial time to.

It depends on what you're reading.  If it's a lot of the classics, or historical or current non-fiction, or other valuable information, you're expanding your knowledge and doing something worthwhile.  If you're getting lost in a 4-hour fantasy of Twilight or Harry Potter fan fiction every night, it's the same damn stupid thing.

[Chris22]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?

Correct, I think that most people who are "serious gamers" spend LOTS of time on it, and it generally requires some pretty intense focus, versus something like watching a sport or show, and it's generally not a social activity aside from swearing at some 12 year old halfway across the country.

Okay. I strongly disagree with this, but maybe it's just because I'm not a "serious gamer" (like the vast majority of people who play video games).  I know there are a lot more benefits I get out of playing Madden than just watching a game on TV, and it's far more social too (thanks to being able to play online against friends who live far away).  So if that means you don't trust me, fine, but I think that reflects more on you than on me.

It may, but the stereotype of the gamer loser in his mom's basement playing video games 10 hours a day didn't appear out of nothing.

[Samsam]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?

Correct, I think that most people who are "serious gamers" spend LOTS of time on it, and it generally requires some pretty intense focus, versus something like watching a sport or show, and it's generally not a social activity aside from swearing at some 12 year old halfway across the country.

Okay. I strongly disagree with this, but maybe it's just because I'm not a "serious gamer" (like the vast majority of people who play video games).  I know there are a lot more benefits I get out of playing Madden than just watching a game on TV, and it's far more social too (thanks to being able to play online against friends who live far away).  So if that means you don't trust me, fine, but I think that reflects more on you than on me.

As a serious gamer I do somewhat agree that it takes a LOT more attention than just watching tv or reading.

I play a game called dota2 and it definitely takes 45 - 60 min of undivided attention per game, because it is played online with other people you cannot pause and walk away.  Also quitting a game while it is still going puts you in a leaver queue meaning its hard to find games after that and you get points against you for abandoning the game.  There are still many video games though that are solo that can be paused or put in a saved state and walked away from. 

[beltim]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?

Correct, I think that most people who are "serious gamers" spend LOTS of time on it, and it generally requires some pretty intense focus, versus something like watching a sport or show, and it's generally not a social activity aside from swearing at some 12 year old halfway across the country.

Okay. I strongly disagree with this, but maybe it's just because I'm not a "serious gamer" (like the vast majority of people who play video games).  I know there are a lot more benefits I get out of playing Madden than just watching a game on TV, and it's far more social too (thanks to being able to play online against friends who live far away).  So if that means you don't trust me, fine, but I think that reflects more on you than on me.

It may, but the stereotype of the gamer loser in his mom's basement playing video games 10 hours a day didn't appear out of nothing.

Inaccurate stereotypes are usually the best way to make an informed decision about something.

[mtn]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

What about someone who reads a lot? As an adult who both reads novels and plays video games, I feel qualified to say that they involve similar amounts of time and depth of involvement. Yet you rarely see readers being criticized. Or any other hobby that someone commits substantial time to.

It depends on what you're reading.  If it's a lot of the classics, or historical or current non-fiction, or other valuable information, you're expanding your knowledge and doing something worthwhile.  If you're getting lost in a 4-hour fantasy of Twilight or Harry Potter fan fiction every night, it's the same damn stupid thing.

But what is wrong with that? It isn't immoral. It isn't illegal. It isn't harming anyone. I make fun of Twilight, but that is because I find humor in it. Other people make fun of me because I have a 24 year old car that sits in the garage most of the time and I spend too much time on finance and motorsport forums. Should they not trust me because of that?

Also, Harry Potter is a modern classic. Sure, it is written at a teenage reading level, because it is a kids book, but the story is just outstanding.

[gobius]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?

Correct, I think that most people who are "serious gamers" spend LOTS of time on it, and it generally requires some pretty intense focus, versus something like watching a sport or show, and it's generally not a social activity aside from swearing at some 12 year old halfway across the country.

Okay. I strongly disagree with this, but maybe it's just because I'm not a "serious gamer" (like the vast majority of people who play video games).  I know there are a lot more benefits I get out of playing Madden than just watching a game on TV, and it's far more social too (thanks to being able to play online against friends who live far away).  So if that means you don't trust me, fine, but I think that reflects more on you than on me.

I have, of course, met people like the ones Chris describes (e.g. people who play WoW for 16 hours/day).  However, my brother and I play zombies every so often online.  We live 500 miles apart and don't hang out more than 2x/year, so it's a good way to stay in touch since neither one of us likes just sitting on the phone.  A lot of other people I know play with groups of friends who don't live close enough to get together.  Some have kids who they don't have to constantly watch, but who they don't want to leave home alone, so playing online games is what they like to do.  Like you, I'm not what Chris calls a "serious gamer", but probably what is typical of adults who play video games and have adult responsibilities.

[Zikoris]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

What about someone who reads a lot? As an adult who both reads novels and plays video games, I feel qualified to say that they involve similar amounts of time and depth of involvement. Yet you rarely see readers being criticized. Or any other hobby that someone commits substantial time to.

It depends on what you're reading.  If it's a lot of the classics, or historical or current non-fiction, or other valuable information, you're expanding your knowledge and doing something worthwhile.  If you're getting lost in a 4-hour fantasy of Twilight or Harry Potter fan fiction every night, it's the same damn stupid thing.

So you don't trust any adult who has hobbies they enjoy that aren't necessarily useful, but just something they enjoy? I can understand criticizing people who do those things excessively to the point of neglecting other important things and people in their lives, but this seems a bit ridiculous.

[justajane]

I've never understood the bias some people have about fiction. I'm sure we've all heard someone obnoxiously say, "I only read non-fiction." Studies have shown that people who read fiction tend to be more empathetic. Granted, usually this is from reading real literature and not genre fiction, but I still don't see what the problem is with "wasting time" doing something fairly meaningless like video games or crappy novels. Sometimes it's like my mental palate cleanser. I am a person that overthinks things to death and has a real problem turning my brain off. Video games can help me recharge and escape the mental gymnastics for a time.

[Zikoris]

-If you want to go above and beyond, that's on you.  Cooking meals and cleaning them up is a shared responsibility.  Deciding you want to bake cookies or cupcakes or something at 8PM is on you, and I am not going to stop watching a football game to do your dishes.  That would be like me deciding to go work on my third (for fun) car and then demanding you put away my tools when I'm done.  Other "make work" projects include switching clothes for the season, re-organizing closets or cabinets, or making a very elaborate dinner.  I won't generally sit on my ass and watch my wife do the laundry or clean up dinner, but I have no problem laying on the couch while she moves sweaters upstairs and tank tops downstairs.  Not my job, not my problem.

Okay, now I'm curious. I swap out clothing seasonally because we need a multi season wardrobe in this climate and lack the closet space to store both sets of outfits in our bedroom at the same time. So I swap stuff around twice a year. Don't most people do this?

We don't. We have minimalist wardrobes and share a closet, with ample space for everything. We handle the seasonal changes mostly through layering - the sleeveless top I wear in the summer turns into a shell under a cardigan or jacket come winter, and so on. The only thing that gets put away off-season is our winter coats.

[Chris22]

-If you want to go above and beyond, that's on you.  Cooking meals and cleaning them up is a shared responsibility.  Deciding you want to bake cookies or cupcakes or something at 8PM is on you, and I am not going to stop watching a football game to do your dishes.  That would be like me deciding to go work on my third (for fun) car and then demanding you put away my tools when I'm done.  Other "make work" projects include switching clothes for the season, re-organizing closets or cabinets, or making a very elaborate dinner.  I won't generally sit on my ass and watch my wife do the laundry or clean up dinner, but I have no problem laying on the couch while she moves sweaters upstairs and tank tops downstairs.  Not my job, not my problem.

Okay, now I'm curious. I swap out clothing seasonally because we need a multi season wardrobe in this climate and lack the closet space to store both sets of outfits in our bedroom at the same time. So I swap stuff around twice a year. Don't most people do this?

Sure, most people do.  But my wife likes to make it a project, go through things, try them on, etc.  And that's great for her.  But while she's moving stuff around, etc, on Sunday afternoon and I'm relaxing with the dog and a beer on the couch watching golf or football, she's giving me the stink eye because she's "working" and I'm not.  She decided to engage in a project for her, by her and about her, so don't hold it against me I didn't decide to do the same.

[Chris22]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

What about someone who reads a lot? As an adult who both reads novels and plays video games, I feel qualified to say that they involve similar amounts of time and depth of involvement. Yet you rarely see readers being criticized. Or any other hobby that someone commits substantial time to.

It depends on what you're reading.  If it's a lot of the classics, or historical or current non-fiction, or other valuable information, you're expanding your knowledge and doing something worthwhile.  If you're getting lost in a 4-hour fantasy of Twilight or Harry Potter fan fiction every night, it's the same damn stupid thing.

But what is wrong with that? It isn't immoral. It isn't illegal. It isn't harming anyone. I make fun of Twilight, but that is because I find humor in it. Other people make fun of me because I have a 24 year old car that sits in the garage most of the time and I spend too much time on finance and motorsport forums. Should they not trust me because of that?

Also, Harry Potter is a modern classic. Sure, it is written at a teenage reading level, because it is a kids book, but the story is just outstanding.

There's nothing WRONG with it, per se, but let's not pretend it makes one more noble or  enlightened than someone who wants to watch American Idol or the bachelor or football or anything else. 

[vagon]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry...

...I am not going to stop watching a football game to do your dishes...

I find it interesting that Chris22 values passively consumer 3 hours or so of watching other people play games instead of playing games himself...

It depends on what you're reading.  If it's a lot of the classics, or historical or current non-fiction, or other valuable information, you're expanding your knowledge and doing something worthwhile.

and then passes a negative judgement on a more passive form of reading.

[Bello_Marinaio]

My ex used to complain that I didn't do half the housework (I actually did more than half), but her "work" began and ended with housework. Cooking, cutting the grass, mowing the lawn, home repairs, rotating tires, etc. never counted on her balance sheet.

 I have often wondered if anyone else had this problem.  In a past relationship

• landscaping
• snow shoveling in the freezing cold
• computer maintenance(that she used for work and video chatting with family)
• "fixing things"

were not taken into account as part of the shared chores because she did 0% of those things.

[music lover]

It depends on what you're reading.  If it's a lot of the classics, or historical or current non-fiction, or other valuable information, you're expanding your knowledge and doing something worthwhile.  If you're getting lost in a 4-hour fantasy of Twilight or Harry Potter fan fiction every night, it's the same damn stupid thing.

I've probably read 10,000 books in my life (yes, that many). To suggest that only classics, historical, or non-fiction can expand your knowledge is ridiculous. There are 10's of thousands of non-fiction books written by highly intelligent people that include vast amounts of information and insider knowledge from their former or existing careers and life experiences that enhance the made up "story".

[Kris]

-If you want to go above and beyond, that's on you.  Cooking meals and cleaning them up is a shared responsibility.  Deciding you want to bake cookies or cupcakes or something at 8PM is on you, and I am not going to stop watching a football game to do your dishes.  That would be like me deciding to go work on my third (for fun) car and then demanding you put away my tools when I'm done.  Other "make work" projects include switching clothes for the season, re-organizing closets or cabinets, or making a very elaborate dinner.  I won't generally sit on my ass and watch my wife do the laundry or clean up dinner, but I have no problem laying on the couch while she moves sweaters upstairs and tank tops downstairs.  Not my job, not my problem.

Okay, now I'm curious. I swap out clothing seasonally because we need a multi season wardrobe in this climate and lack the closet space to store both sets of outfits in our bedroom at the same time. So I swap stuff around twice a year. Don't most people do this?

Sure, most people do.  But my wife likes to make it a project, go through things, try them on, etc.  And that's great for her.  But while she's moving stuff around, etc, on Sunday afternoon and I'm relaxing with the dog and a beer on the couch watching golf or football, she's giving me the stink eye because she's "working" and I'm not.  She decided to engage in a project for her, by her and about her, so don't hold it against me I didn't decide to do the same.

I don't trust adults who waste their time sitting around drinking beer and watching sports games, instead of getting their butts off the couch and actually playing them.

[Goldielocks]

-I don't trust a grown adult who regularly plays video games on his own (ie, not with his own kids).  Sorry.

Can you elaborate?  Do you think video games intrinsically take up more time, or are less involved than watching television?
Why?  What's the difference between a video game, or a board game, or watching football?

Time and depth of involvement.

Yes!  And with pvr or TiVo there is a pause button. That feature is a marriage saver , any here that recall TV and marriage before, should agree. Of course pausing comes with Netflix too

[shelivesthedream]

To get back to the chore debate (and I must admit I have not read every post), this is our system:

If it bothers you that much, do it yourself. This applies to washing up, laundry, hoovering, etc.

The exceptions are:
1. My job is emptying the bin, his job is cleaning the loo. We each nominated the one job we hate the most, and that is the only thing we are allowed to go on at ("nag") the other to do.

2. If it's obviously specifically one person's mess (e.g. my sewing stuff).

In actual fact, I do most of the laundry and about half the washing up. He always waters the plants. I feel like I do more than half the housework but I don't resent it because I'm only doing it when it bothers me. If he says something like "I'm running out of clean shirts" I say "So do some laundry" and he either does it or shuts up. That's the deal. I also do a lot of the cooking. However, he's the one to do proper cleans like cleaning the hob, he's just not so onto the day to day stuff.

We also make it a point to thank each other. If he doesn't notice something, I'll say "I did some washing up this morning" and he will pick it up and say thank you.

If you have an unclean spouse you have two options:
1. Stop cleaning. Wait until they notice how dirty the house is. Use this as a springboard for an adult discussion of acceptable cleanliness and chore distribution.
2. Suck it up and accept that they won't be 'made' to do something they don't care about. If you care that much, do it yourself!

[sol]

If he says something like "I'm running out of clean shirts" I say "So do some laundry" and he either does it or shuts up.

I'm pretty sure that if I ever said "I'm running out of clean shirts" my wife would laugh at me for being an idiot who forgets to do laundry.  It would never even occur to either of us to use that sentence as code for "You need to do my laundry because you're the woman" the way your husband seems to be doing.