The Fitness Megathread

[jba302]

I'm always back and forth about BCAA's. I eat a shit ton of meat and from Alan's readings they just don't give enough boost for a non-competitive person. I'm surprised you have a DOMS reaction to them, that's very interesting.

For basically anyone the list I recommend is as follows -
1. Eat enough meat (red meat... as ron swanson would say fish is basically a vegetable). This should clear a person's needs for bcaa's and, in all likelihood, creatine.
2. Creatine. Some people like myself are complete non-responders but it's like 5 cents a day to supplement with a good creatine mono.
3. Caffeine. A lot of caffeine.
4. A pre such as jack3d or homebrewed like tuyop laid out.

Some pre's are decent, but i think it just needs to make sense. If you are doing 5/3/1 with a sub 1300 total and you "need" supplements then there's a lot of other shit in your life you have to straighten out first. OTOH, when I was doing sheiko and rock climbing 3 days/week (ah the old single life... blessing and a curse) I would have probably murdered someone that tried to stop me from taking jack3d daily. Or if you are cutting hard for something, then yes you should be loading up on protein powder / BCAA's because that much tilapia will make you hate life.

Realistically anything truly effective outside of the above 4 listed is going to be garbage or is now illegal / script only. Nootropics interest me but I take Adderall already so I've been skittish about replacing / supplementing.

[Kriegsspiel]

I take a multivitamin, fish oil, and EC.  I have some creatine I'll eventually start taking again.  They're all very cheap.

[mobilisinmobili]

Hey does anybody here use fitocracy?

Thinking about making a Mustachian group on there or something. I love the pretty graphs.

I already started one for the biking challenge a few weeks back. Join us!

https://www.fitocracy.com/group/14295/?chatter

[smithy]

Edit: You might appreciate http://stronglifts.com/, they have a pretty good-looking 5x5 program, or the Starting Strength wiki for Mark Rippetoe's program. Mark Rippetoe is the fucking man and I think everyone should do Starting Strength. YMMV.

Hi tuyop,
Thanks for the all the info. I have stopped my 4-day-split and I've started implementing the StrongLifts Beginner 5x5 Workout, all barbell based excercises. I liked the info on the website so will see how I get on with it. Feels a bit strange as only 3 days of the week instead of 4, and I am able to complete all the exercises much quicker than my last workout routine. So far so good :)

[Kriegsspiel]

Jesus, there was a lot of fluff on the stronglifts 5x5 page.  All I got out of it was that you do an A/B split, and add 5 lbs every workout for straight sets of 5?  Bleh.  I'd suggest you use the Madcow version.

[tuyop]

Edit: You might appreciate http://stronglifts.com/, they have a pretty good-looking 5x5 program, or the Starting Strength wiki for Mark Rippetoe's program. Mark Rippetoe is the fucking man and I think everyone should do Starting Strength. YMMV.

Hi tuyop,
Thanks for the all the info. I have stopped my 4-day-split and I've started implementing the StrongLifts Beginner 5x5 Workout, all barbell based excercises. I liked the info on the website so will see how I get on with it. Feels a bit strange as only 3 days of the week instead of 4, and I am able to complete all the exercises much quicker than my last workout routine. So far so good :)

Awesome, that's really good to hear. And yeah, Wendler says that if your routine takes more than 45 minutes, it's a waste of time.

Personally I'm running (heh) into a problem now that the weather is getting good, and this happens to me every year. I have an epic, almost spiritual affinity for running. It brings me such great joy that I will literally run until my tendons rupture and joints stop working. So now I want to run more because it's spring and stuff, but it's ruining my legs and if I run as much as I want, I won't be able to squat or deadlift as much as I also want. Let alone bike or swim.

Oh man, what should I do?

[GuitarStv]

Edit: You might appreciate http://stronglifts.com/, they have a pretty good-looking 5x5 program, or the Starting Strength wiki for Mark Rippetoe's program. Mark Rippetoe is the fucking man and I think everyone should do Starting Strength. YMMV.

Hi tuyop,
Thanks for the all the info. I have stopped my 4-day-split and I've started implementing the StrongLifts Beginner 5x5 Workout, all barbell based excercises. I liked the info on the website so will see how I get on with it. Feels a bit strange as only 3 days of the week instead of 4, and I am able to complete all the exercises much quicker than my last workout routine. So far so good :)

Awesome, that's really good to hear. And yeah, Wendler says that if your routine takes more than 45 minutes, it's a waste of time.

Really?

On starting strength for example you have three working sets per exercise, and three exercises per day.  You are probably taking between 3-4 minutes between sets once they get heavy, AND you also have 4-5 warm ups sets that you do for each exercise.  Throw in a little time taken to change the weights around, and I don't see any way you can get this workout done in 45 minutes.  On stronglifts you have 5 working sets per exercise plus warm ups.  It would take even longer than starting strength.

45 minutes seems ridiculously short.

[tuyop]

You may be right, I'm just saying that's what Wendler says.

My own workouts take about 50 minutes from out of the car to back in the car, most recently on my bench press day, using the "boring but big" accessory routine. Here's my routine:

Bench press Three warm up sets: 5, 5, 3
Bench press Three work sets: 5, 5, 5+ (12x185 in my case)
Bench press Five accessory sets, 10 reps each
One-armed dumbbell row Five accessory sets, 10 reps each (10x105 whatup)
Stretch for <10 minutes, do some foam rolling and hip mobility in there too.


I also kind of stopped timing my rest sets and keeping tempo, I just lift when it feels like I can lift again. That may not be a useful comparison, because it doesn't include the 7k run I did that morning, or the long ab circuit after the run, so I'm not sure what you count as a "workout", but yeah. My lifting sessions almost always come in at under an hour, except for squats because I'm scared of them.

[jba302]

Yea an hour is a good number for most people. I loved 5/3/1 but I need more volume squat wise due to having a shit-tasticular squat body.

My routine now is -

Friday and Wednesday are squat/bench/power clean, Monday is OHP plus accessory high bar or box squatting-
4x8 50%
4x7 55%
4x6 60%
5x5 65%
5x4 70%
6x3 75%
7x2 80%
6x2 85%
4x1 90%

Kind of an elongated 5/3/1 based on prilepin's chart. Then bump +5 or +10 depending on how that microcycle went. so it's an every-other month bump in projected 1rm.  Deadlift is on it's own cycle as my deadlift 1rm is 165 pounds over my squat 1rm so it's on who-gives-a-shit mode until I can squat over 405 @ 198.

[Kriegsspiel]

jba, it's been a while since I dug into Supertraining, but iirc, the intent of Prilepin's chart is not to do the entire thing in one workout.  It is to say that the most reps you should do in the ENTIRE workout is the total range.



For instance, you'd do, maybe, 3 sets of 8 with 80% of your max, and that's it.  Or maybe warm up to a couple sets of 5 with 85%, then 15 reps with 70%, something like that.  If you are skirting the upper rep range for each intensity bracket, you aren't following the intellectual path of his table.

It was also intended for olympic weightlifting, FWIW.

[jba302]

Oh no no, that isn't every day, that's each day per line. So that's an 8 week cycle, not a daily routine. This was discussed with a monster pl'er as a goal template that will likely be tweaked up over time (additional volume).

[Kriegsspiel]

I was about to give you big props for being able to walk the day after that workout, thanks for letting us all know you are a normal human.

[jba302]

I was about to give you big props for being able to walk the day after that workout, thanks for letting us all know you are a normal human.

Hah, yes, with a 350 squat / 285 bench I definitely am firmly in the human scope still, more towards "powerlifting powder puff". My best volume efforts have been smolov for 2 cycles, sheiko (28-29-30-31) plus rock climbing, and a stint of Broz-style daily squatting for 40 straight days. I've finally jammed it into my head that my diet compounded over life stress has been the biggest issue over routine by an enormous factor, so I'm cutting down volume to accommodate my lax diet. At some point I'll have to eat up from 195 to 220 to get a new BW set point. Maybe if I can find some raw milk round here to get the extra cals down.

[tuyop]

I was about to give you big props for being able to walk the day after that workout, thanks for letting us all know you are a normal human.

Hah, yes, with a 350 squat / 285 bench I definitely am firmly in the human scope still, more towards "powerlifting powder puff". My best volume efforts have been smolov for 2 cycles, sheiko (28-29-30-31) plus rock climbing, and a stint of Broz-style daily squatting for 40 straight days. I've finally jammed it into my head that my diet compounded over life stress has been the biggest issue over routine by an enormous factor, so I'm cutting down volume to accommodate my lax diet. At some point I'll have to eat up from 195 to 220 to get a new BW set point. Maybe if I can find some raw milk round here to get the extra cals down.

I can say that Leangains has been working very well for me.

[GuitarStv]

Great link for someone interested in learning about fitness:  http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html

[tuyop]

Great link for someone interested in learning about fitness:  http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html

Are you trying to lose weight? Lift weights. Lifting burns tons of calories, and lifting weights while dieting will cause you to retain more muscle and lose more fat than just diet and/or cardio. Because the name of the game when it comes to not looking awful is FAT LOSS, not weight loss. Do you want to be that guy who loses lots of weight and still looks flabby and useless? Of course not.

Are you just trying to "tone up"? Lift weights. "Toning" is kind of a nonsense term, because you don't actually "tone" anything. You can only lose fat and gain muscle, and lifting weights helps you do both, by burning calories and promoting muscle growth. Like I said before, you get huge by eating huge, not lifting weights; lifting just determines how much of your weight is muscle vs. fat.

Are you a woman? Lift weights, because I already explained why lifting won't turn you into a man, and all the other benefits still apply to you. And if you are a 1 in 1,000,000 woman who can pack on muscle mass like a man, just stop working out as hard and it will go away.

Awesome!

[Kriegsspiel]

Not bad.  Well, unless you have a hard time gaining weight, then his advice might not be that great.

In other news, I hit a lifetime PR this week, benched 290 x5.  I'll soon be repping 300, which is pretty cool.

[tuyop]

/\/\/\ Congrats, man!

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2013/march/1361848247/karen-hitchcock/fat-city

There are other costs: the fatter you are the greater your ecological footprint. Globally, we are carrying 18.5 million tonnes of excess fat under the skin of the overweight and obese, which – if it were still food rather than adipose tissue  – would feed 300 million people for life. Fat people have been compared to petrol-guzzling cars. I feel terrible typing these sentences. I apologise; they are ugly.

That's a really great article, but man I dislike fat people.

[melidesau]

Are you a woman? Lift weights, because I already explained why lifting won't turn you into a man, and all the other benefits still apply to you. And if you are a 1 in 1,000,000 woman who can pack on muscle mass like a man, just stop working out as hard and it will go away.

Am I the only woman on this planet who doesn't mind/enjoys bulking up? I've read this kind of statement all over the Interwebs and it seems like everybody completely ignores the possibility that any of these "1 in 1,000,000 women" could actually like how their bodies react to strength training. 

[Donovan]

Are you a woman? Lift weights, because I already explained why lifting won't turn you into a man, and all the other benefits still apply to you. And if you are a 1 in 1,000,000 woman who can pack on muscle mass like a man, just stop working out as hard and it will go away.

Am I the only woman on this planet who doesn't mind/enjoys bulking up? I've read this kind of statement all over the Interwebs and it seems like everybody completely ignores the possibility that any of these "1 in 1,000,000 women" could actually like how their bodies react to strength training.

Actually, I've met several throughout my life (so I doubt it's really 1 in 1,000,000 who respond that way, more like the thousands).  However, I am curious if you have pursued a career that takes advantage of this interest.  I ask because, of the ones I know, they all seem to gravitate heavily towards such careers (one is a firefighter, one a cop, and the last is a personal trainer/muay thai instructor).

[melidesau]

Are you a woman? Lift weights, because I already explained why lifting won't turn you into a man, and all the other benefits still apply to you. And if you are a 1 in 1,000,000 woman who can pack on muscle mass like a man, just stop working out as hard and it will go away.

Am I the only woman on this planet who doesn't mind/enjoys bulking up? I've read this kind of statement all over the Interwebs and it seems like everybody completely ignores the possibility that any of these "1 in 1,000,000 women" could actually like how their bodies react to strength training.

Actually, I've met several throughout my life (so I doubt it's really 1 in 1,000,000 who respond that way, more like the thousands).  However, I am curious if you have pursued a career that takes advantage of this interest.  I ask because, of the ones I know, they all seem to gravitate heavily towards such careers (one is a firefighter, one a cop, and the last is a personal trainer/muay thai instructor).

Heh, not at all - I'm a translator. But I'm still pretty young, so I still have plenty of time to become a certified MovNat instructor or something, as I've occasionally thought about doing :)

[tuyop]

Are you a woman? Lift weights, because I already explained why lifting won't turn you into a man, and all the other benefits still apply to you. And if you are a 1 in 1,000,000 woman who can pack on muscle mass like a man, just stop working out as hard and it will go away.

Am I the only woman on this planet who doesn't mind/enjoys bulking up? I've read this kind of statement all over the Interwebs and it seems like everybody completely ignores the possibility that any of these "1 in 1,000,000 women" could actually like how their bodies react to strength training.

Dude, I'm a man and I've been trying to "bulk up" for like seven years and it still hasn't happened. Shit takes dedication. People act like you wake up one morning and then Bam!, you're Ronnie Coleman because you accidentally squated two plates.

[Shandi76]

Am I the only woman on this planet who doesn't mind/enjoys bulking up? I've read this kind of statement all over the Interwebs and it seems like everybody completely ignores the possibility that any of these "1 in 1,000,000 women" could actually like how their bodies react to strength training. 

I'd love to bulk up, but I'm a hard gainer :-( My body generally responds to strength training by getting leaner (if I am eating clean) but I am struggling to gain much muscle.

I think it doesn't help that my poor posture and mobility issues limit the amount of weight I can lift more than my actual strength potential so I can't achieve what I think my true 1RM or 3RM weights should be, and struggle to increase the weights I can lift. I can lift about 15Kg over BW for Deadlift, but am only at about 80% BW for back squat, 70% for Front Squat and 50 - 60% for overhead lifts. I've ordered KStarr's book in the hope of improving my mobility and therefore improving my technique.

[Bakari]

Thing us little guys (and gals) have to remember when we are looking at the models in the magazines and the monsters at the gym and comparing our own skinny arms and legs is that in the serious weight lifting and body building arenas steroids is the rule, not the exception.
And even then, with illegal performance enhancing drugs, and supplemental protein and creatine and carefully controlled diets, its still all on top of 10-20 hours a week working out, and even then it still takes a bit of genetic luck on top of all that.

Another thing I've been noticing in the gym lately is a lot of guys who look bigger and bulkier (and presumably stronger) than me are consistently lifting a lot less weight than me.  I suspect a lot of that bulk is just fat.

My problem now is the event that I was using as my motivation is past (Bay to Breakers, http://www.flickr.com/photos/26843968@N08/sets/72157633813246057/ ), and now I seem to have lost that motivation.  I've been sick, that's my excuse...

[smithy]

Edit: You might appreciate http://stronglifts.com/, they have a pretty good-looking 5x5 program, or the Starting Strength wiki for Mark Rippetoe's program. Mark Rippetoe is the fucking man and I think everyone should do Starting Strength. YMMV.

Hi tuyop,
Thanks for the all the info. I have stopped my 4-day-split and I've started implementing the StrongLifts Beginner 5x5 Workout, all barbell based excercises. I liked the info on the website so will see how I get on with it. Feels a bit strange as only 3 days of the week instead of 4, and I am able to complete all the exercises much quicker than my last workout routine. So far so good :)

Awesome, that's really good to hear. And yeah, Wendler says that if your routine takes more than 45 minutes, it's a waste of time.

Really?

On starting strength for example you have three working sets per exercise, and three exercises per day.  You are probably taking between 3-4 minutes between sets once they get heavy, AND you also have 4-5 warm ups sets that you do for each exercise.  Throw in a little time taken to change the weights around, and I don't see any way you can get this workout done in 45 minutes.  On stronglifts you have 5 working sets per exercise plus warm ups.  It would take even longer than starting strength.

45 minutes seems ridiculously short.

Gave the Stronglifts workout a go for a short while, I wasn't really enjoying my time in the gym as there wasn't much variation. Went back to my "Intermediate 4-Day Split"  (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/7-intermediate-4-day-split-workout.html) program which I really enjoy and I'm making decent progress in (increasing weight quite regularly).

It was very good to try a different program, especially as I learned the importance of barbell excerises. I will no doubt try other programs in the future as well, thanks for introducing me to Stronglifts  :)

[tuyop]

/\/\ Good on you for trying it, man. I'm really glad that you learned something from it even if it's not for you. Thanks!

There's no such thing as a "hard gainer". Just eat more. You have permission to eat all the cookies, congratulations. Tracking your diet will probably show you that you're not eating as much as you think you are.

Also, mobility is an important component of fitness that's worthy of hard work.

Thing us little guys (and gals) have to remember when we are looking at the models in the magazines and the monsters at the gym and comparing our own skinny arms and legs is that in the serious weight lifting and body building arenas steroids is the rule, not the exception.
And even then, with illegal performance enhancing drugs, and supplemental protein and creatine and carefully controlled diets, its still all on top of 10-20 hours a week working out, and even then it still takes a bit of genetic luck on top of all that.

Another thing I've been noticing in the gym lately is a lot of guys who look bigger and bulkier (and presumably stronger) than me are consistently lifting a lot less weight than me.  I suspect a lot of that bulk is just fat.

My problem now is the event that I was using as my motivation is past (Bay to Breakers, http://www.flickr.com/photos/26843968@N08/sets/72157633813246057/ ), and now I seem to have lost that motivation.  I've been sick, that's my excuse...

Gonna have to call you out on this. I'm one of those guys squatting twice my bodyweight and I just eat food and lift weights and do other activities in my free time. My natural state is also kinda pudgy and I've never looked good without a ton of work and dedication.

If your goal is to be Ronnie, then yeah you'll never get there without steroids. If you just want to look like Joe Manganiello or Ryan Reynolds or whatever other Men's Health posterchild you want, it's entirely possible to get there using diet and exercise. And time.

As for protein supplements, that's a weird grey area but it's really the most mustachian way to get to the coveted 1g/lb/day.

I don't want to seem mean here either, it's just a very negative attitude to say "hard gainer", shrug, eat 1800 calories and 75g of protein and throw up your hands.

It's also a very negative attitude to look at a dude who's been through hundreds of gym hours and kitchen hours to get to where he is physically and dismiss him/her with "steroids" and continue to rock the pec deck on "low" setting.

[Shandi76]

tuyop, I definitely eat more than 1800 Kcals a day: probably 2400 - 3000, which I am told is much more than the average recommended intake for a woman (I track it sometime using MyFitnessPal like my Cross Fit coach suggested, but I got annoyed at it as it uses silly ratios for your macros and told me I had eaten too much fat for the day by the end of breakfast (3 egg omelette with tomato, spinach and 20g cheddar, and a dessertspoon of almond butter)). My weight does fluctuate by around 7 - 10 lbs so I can gain weight, but it is usually fat I end up gaining. I used to be vegetarian but started including some meat and fish to try and increase my protein intake.

I never assume anyone is on steroids because they are making better progress than me. I do know they are drinking horrible tasting protein shakes though, which they then try to fob off to other folk via Facebook when they realise they bought a huge tub of an unbearable flavour :-)

[Bakari]

It's also a very negative attitude to look at a dude who's been through hundreds of gym hours and kitchen hours to get to where he is physically and dismiss him/her with "steroids" and continue to rock the pec deck on "low" setting.

Not dismissing at all, I said that even with them, it STILL takes extremely hard work and consistent dedication. 

And there are some people who can spend 6 hours a week doing 3-5 sets of 4-5 reps of heavy compound movements, increase the weight slightly each session, eat creatine pre-workout and gross protein shakes post, force themselves to eat much more than they want (and then another shake before bed), have a job that involves hauling concrete and carrying furniture up stairs, and even take oxymethalone for a few months at a time every few years, and even then, despite getting significantly stronger (say, squatting 2.5x BW, bench 1.5x BW, clean and press 1x BW, pull up BW + 70), still not gaining any significant weight or size (10lbs at the very most)

If that isn't "hard gainer" then maybe my understanding of the term is very wrong.

[jba302]

I hate that I missed the steroid talk, been sick as hell for a week. Managed to get to 195x4x9 on high bar last week before coming down with some disturbingly long sickness, so HOPING to go back there and get to a 290 at the peak of this micro. I did hit a bodyweight clean and jerk easily though, not bad for only a couple weeks of practice!

Here's my summary steroid thoughts so I can pretend I have a say and everyone can shoot past it -
1. A surprising number of gym rats are on something, from that crap oral andro up to Humalog.
2. Most of them are not impressively sized other than what helps their pet lift. This pet lift is almost always bench.
3. If someone has oddly large - traps, delts, or calves, they are "probably" on.
3a. The noted exceptions are: Traps and delts - west african descent (demonstrably high type 2b muscle fibers), calves - used to be obese.
4. Unless they are explicitly training as a powerlifter, they are probably not appreciably stronger in any lift other than their pet lift.
5. I like to use Layne Norton as my baseline visual comparison. If you are bigger and leaner than him, that's when I'm going to start by assuming you are on something. Otherwise, it doesn't matter.
6. People can get absurdly strong clean. I can tick off people with 500# squat and deadlifts all day that haven't even thought about going on yet.
7. You can be very strong and not look it.
8. If you want to look big and strong, plan on putting a farmer's kid through college. It takes a lot of food to get a man in the 200# range larger while being physically active.

For every one that is a "hard gainer", I'm on board with Tuyop. Use a pickfork and shovel, put olive oil and butter on everything, and put a lot of reading material by the toilet.

[tuyop]

/\/\ The steroid talk continues!

I considered using when I was first injured, to try to get back in shape and blow away a training course. The side effects outweighed the benefits of my job though.

tuyop, I definitely eat more than 1800 Kcals a day: probably 2400 - 3000, which I am told is much more than the average recommended intake for a woman (I track it sometime using MyFitnessPal like my Cross Fit coach suggested, but I got annoyed at it as it uses silly ratios for your macros and told me I had eaten too much fat for the day by the end of breakfast (3 egg omelette with tomato, spinach and 20g cheddar, and a dessertspoon of almond butter)). My weight does fluctuate by around 7 - 10 lbs so I can gain weight, but it is usually fat I end up gaining. I used to be vegetarian but started including some meat and fish to try and increase my protein intake.

I never assume anyone is on steroids because they are making better progress than me. I do know they are drinking horrible tasting protein shakes though, which they then try to fob off to other folk via Facebook when they realise they bought a huge tub of an unbearable flavour :-)

You can customize the ratios in MFP if it bothers you that much.

And it's true, there are outliers who can eat literally 10 000 calories a day for a month and their metabolism just adjusts to it. There was a documentary on it that was pretty good as well. Odds are that you're not an outlier though. But it's possible!

Try tracking every single calorie for two weeks. I know it may be annoying, just make a habit of it, like budgeting.

If you're not meeting your goals, there's only three possible reasons:

1. Form
2. Programming
3. Diet

If you're trying to get swole on Crossfit, then your problem is probably 2. You could maybe work with your coach to redirect your training from 1/3 strength work to 2/3 or whatever your gym does.


Also: Protein shakes are delicious. Seriously, a nice vanilla shake with 500ml of milk is like one of my favourite snacks, it's almost candy. I've tried a bunch of brands and their vanillas are always pretty good.

Think of creatine (and other supplements) as cheaper ways to get good micronutrients from food sources. If you eat a ton of meat, creatine won't really do anything anyway because your muscles are already full of it. But meat is expensive, and you can get creatine monohydrate for like $15/lb. It also doesn't matter when you take it, it's not a preworkout kind of thing. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/animalpak22.htm

Lastly, it's possible to do too much. You grow in bed, not in the gym.

[Shandi76]

Some good advice there, thanks tuyop.

I think my main problem is 1) Form. Which is why I am concentrating on mobility work. I was a group fitness cardio junkie for years and am slightly bemused by the facts that a) I really love heavy (for me) barbell work now, when before I was intimidated by the free weights and would only do Body Pump or Kettlefit and b) weight training has improved my posture far more than any other classes I took, even including Body Balance.

I think the Programming at our gym is pretty good, but is a little bit bitty as we work in short 6 week cycles. At the moment we are on a 6 week mobility focused cycle (partly for the benefit of myself and a few other members, partly because our Head Coach wants to test out some Supple Leopard drills on us) so I don't want to ask to do individualised programming this cycle. It is helping too, as after some mobility drills I added a lot to my OHS and Snatch, and a little bit to my Front Squat 1RM. We usually spend 20 - 30 mins on strength work and 7 - 30 mins on the WOD (depending on the days programming). If there is a shorter WOD we either get longer for barbell work, or practice a gymnastic skill (which I am also mainly rubbish at :-( ). I can change what I work on as long as I don't get in anyone's way, and there are open gym times where I can do whatever programming I choose, so it is pretty good. I also think I am at a stage (only 10 months in) where I am still learning a lot from Cross Fit and should still be making strength gains from the class programming (like everyone else is) without needing to follow something more specialised.

My diet is a bit Jekyll and Hyde: either really clean or rather SAD depending whether myself or my partner is cooking. I will try monitoring it more consistently. I'm pretty sure I get enough vegetables and healthy fats, but I'm not sure if I am getting an optimum amount of protein.

I might try protein shakes but I'd rather do without supplements if possible. I try to eat clean most of the time and whey protein seems to fall into the highly processed category. And I've never tasted one that was nice, though if I do try one I will try vanilla.

[Kriegsspiel]

And there are some people who can spend 6 hours a week doing 3-5 sets of 4-5 reps of heavy compound movements, increase the weight slightly each session, eat creatine pre-workout and gross protein shakes post, force themselves to eat much more than they want (and then another shake before bed), have a job that involves hauling concrete and carrying furniture up stairs, and even take oxymethalone for a few months at a time every few years, and even then, despite getting significantly stronger (say, squatting 2.5x BW, bench 1.5x BW, clean and press 1x BW, pull up BW + 70), still not gaining any significant weight or size (10lbs at the very most)

If that isn't "hard gainer" then maybe my understanding of the term is very wrong.

It depends.  10 lbs of solid muscle gain (which is usually what "hardgainers" put on, they don't usually get fat; The original studies that linked a higher p ratio [the amount of muscle vs fat gained] with low bodyfat levels were done on hardgainers.  This is where the advice to diet down to low BF levels before you try to bulk up comes from) in a year is pretty good.  Less than a year and it's really good.  In 5 years, not so good.  The only problem hardgainers I've met IRL or have seen post on the toobs have is that they do not eat enough.  It really comes down to these reasons, with their corresponding solutions:

1. They get full and stop eating.  This describes most of the skinny emo kids.  They just don't eat.  Most people who are lifting and trying to get stronger and more muskelly don't "just not eat," but they obviously don't enough "enough."  If they did, they'd be gaining weight.  Solution: like tuyop said, track calories until you find your maintenance calories.  Do this by eating the same amount of calories each day, don't eat 1000 one day, then 5000, then 4500, then 1200.  Just eat 3000 or something every day for a couple weeks and see if your weight stays exactly the same.  Then add 15% or something and eat that much.  This may/probably will be uncomfortable, suck it up.

2. They try to "eat clean," which exacerbates their natural tendency to do number 1.  Solution: stop trying to cram 4000 calories of cottage cheese and oatmeal down each day.  Eat some cheesecake or something.  Just get about 1g/lb BW in protein and take a multivitamin/fish oil.

3. Combining numbers 1 and 2; they can't eat enough of the foods they are eating.  Solution: find foods you like and eat a lot of it. 

4. They're afraid of getting fat and losing their 6 pack.  Solution: facepalm yourself.  It's almost impossible to gain appreciable amounts of muscle if you are unwilling to gain any fat.

[Bakari]

And it's true, there are outliers who can eat literally 10 000 calories a day for a month and their metabolism just adjusts to it. There was a documentary on it that was pretty good as well. Odds are that you're not an outlier though. But it's possible!

Try tracking every single calorie for two weeks. I know it may be annoying, just make a habit of it, like budgeting.

If you're not meeting your goals, there's only three possible reasons:

1. Form
2. Programming
3. Diet

for me its not a weird metabolic condition, its that after a certain point I start to get nauseous.  I physically could not eat 10,000 calories per day, I would throw up long before that point.  It might help to have 6-8 meals per day, but unless one is unemployed, its really not practical to try to fit in both a demanding workout and 8 separate meals 4 times a week. 
"Just eat more" may sound simple to someone who naturally has a bigger appetite than hunger, just like its easy for me to say "eat less" to someone who is obese and wants to lose fat.

Also, vegetarian, hence the supplemental protein and creatine

I like the progress I've been making, and I'll keep picking up heavy stuff and setting it down, but I doubt I'll ever

and, yeah, I don't assume its everyone, but its definitely a lot more common than many are aware, and its not just limited to body builders and pro athletes.  The only ones that are obvious are the ones who take too much, and the sides start showing


.....


I was typing when Kriegsspiel posted...

LOL!!! skinny emo kids, eh?
Yeah, tried more carbs, more sugar, oil based meal replacement, and pints of premium ice cream.  The more calorie dense, the sooner I can't physically at more (literally, I mean I start to notice that I have been chewing for 5 minutes and my mouth refuses to swallow!)  Doesn't matter how much I like the food.  I was quite willing to gain some fat at the same time.  I've come to the conclusion that I am happy with lean definition and strength that doesn't necessarily show.  Tends to be what the ladies prefer anyway ;)

[jba302]

Vegetarian definitely makes it harder, simply due to caloric density issues. I've never met, or even heard of, someone who became big while being a vegetarian, but they have maintained size after a transition. Even while eating meat, I've hit a wall with calories myself because I suddenly became violently lactose intolerant, whereas my first big bulk came largely from dairy.

I would comment on tuyop's point about form. There is form that is ideal for your body/limb ratios, and there is form that causes "energy leaks," and there is form that's going to get you hurt. If you are moving the bar in a general up and down path, you likely are doing sufficiently good enough to pass. People get really hung up on form (I should say I here as well as people when talking about my squat) when it's not going to kill them or even likely injure them, and that causes intensity loss, and THAT is what kills your progress. Unless you are putting yourself into really odd angles, you're fine and that can be assessed very quickly by a competent trainer (finding a competent trainer will take substantially longer).

Here's an example of what happened when i got out of my head on deadlifts. 9 months before this my max was 405... this is 420x6 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrirUtHMdc

[jba302]

Bah lost the rest of my post. Point was, that is shit deadlift form by many standards but my lumbar spine is strong as hell because I started moving real weight.

[Kriegsspiel]

for me its not a weird metabolic condition, its that after a certain point I start to get nauseous.  I physically could not eat 10,000 calories per day, I would throw up long before that point.  It might help to have 6-8 meals per day, but unless one is unemployed, its really not practical to try to fit in both a demanding workout and 8 separate meals 4 times a week. 
"Just eat more" may sound simple to someone who naturally has a bigger appetite than hunger, just like its easy for me to say "eat less" to someone who is obese and wants to lose fat.

Yes, exactly!  They both suck in their own way, but are necessary for getting to where you want to be. If you ever do decide to try to bulk up again, you can take some inspiration... or eating disorder awareness... from Dave Gulledge.  180 to 320.

When I was at my biggest I would eat six to seven meals a day with protein at every meal.  I basically tried to keep my protein very high and then get as many calories as possible on top of that. I would try to hit up a Chinese buffet a couple times a week and try to eat one large pizza a week.  I would eat fast food a few times a week as well.  12 weeks out from a meet I would begin drinking a gallon of whole milk a day.  I remember I was reading an interview with Billy Mimnaugh a couple of years ago and he said to get big he drank a gallon of whole milk a day.  I thought that sounded pretty hardcore so I started doing the same thing.  I pretty much ate until I was uncomfortable most of the time.  I hated food pretty much the entire time I was 310+ and gagged for no reason quite a bit.  I am not a huge guy normally, so to be over 300 took a lot of work.

[tuyop]

Yeah, I really think we should work as hard in the kitchen (or the table, I guess) as we do in the gym. Your body is literally made out of food, so it just makes sense.

I've also started eating more as well, and when combined with intermittent fasting, you get some wild situations where you're staring at 2200 calories and 145g of protein that you must consume in the next 25 minutes or you'll miss your feeding window and suffer terrible consequences. At those times, I kind of hate food and wander around in a slight daze all blown up like a tick before I go to bed.

[GuitarStv]

Another thing I've been noticing in the gym lately is a lot of guys who look bigger and bulkier (and presumably stronger) than me are consistently lifting a lot less weight than me.  I suspect a lot of that bulk is just fat.

It's probably not fat, but a lot of it may be water.

Training for strength is different than training for bigger muscles.  Initially when you start training, you're going to gain muscle some mass pretty much no matter what you do.  Once your body is adapted to weight lifting though, more reps with slightly lower weight produce bigger muscles.  Staying in the power range (1-5 reps) tends to make your neuro-muscular efficiency go up, and this eventually happens somewhat independently of muscle size.  This is why power lifters and Olympic weight lifters don't generally look as big as body builders, but can move heavier weight.

This happens because bodybuilding (short, endurance type) workouts increase glycogen stores in the muscles, glycogen is stored by the body along with a lot of water.  This makes muscles swell up larger, and is an adaptation for the weightlifting endurance (higher rep counts with moderate loading).  In people who follow lower rep and more intense workouts, the body adapts by increasing the concentration of contractile proteins in the muscle, but doesn't add in all that glycogen and water (it's not needed for the shorter, more intense bursts of exercise).

Dietary creatine or creatine supplementation also increases water storage in muscles and will make them appear a little larger.  As a vegetarian you're likely to be lower in your creatine levels, which will also make your musculature appear somewhat smaller.

[Bakari]

Another thing I've been noticing in the gym lately is a lot of guys who look bigger and bulkier (and presumably stronger) than me are consistently lifting a lot less weight than me.  I suspect a lot of that bulk is just fat.

It's probably not fat, but a lot of it may be water.

Training for strength is different than training for bigger muscles.  Initially when you start training, you're going to gain muscle some mass pretty much no matter what you do.  Once your body is adapted to weight lifting though, more reps with slightly lower weight produce bigger muscles.  Staying in the power range (1-5 reps) tends to make your neuro-muscular efficiency go up, and this eventually happens somewhat independently of muscle size.  This is why power lifters and Olympic weight lifters don't generally look as big as body builders, but can move heavier weight.

This happens because bodybuilding (short, endurance type) workouts increase glycogen stores in the muscles, glycogen is stored by the body along with a lot of water.  This makes muscles swell up larger, and is an adaptation for the weightlifting endurance (higher rep counts with moderate loading).  In people who follow lower rep and more intense workouts, the body adapts by increasing the concentration of contractile proteins in the muscle, but doesn't add in all that glycogen and water (it's not needed for the shorter, more intense bursts of exercise).

Dietary creatine or creatine supplementation also increases water storage in muscles and will make them appear a little larger.  As a vegetarian you're likely to be lower in your creatine levels, which will also make your musculature appear somewhat smaller.

Fits with the tiny bit I read about the week before contest prep that BB do (in advance of the event I was training for)
Makes sense, cool, thanks for the additional info!

[Shandi76]

Started tracking my food intake again today with MyFitnessPal.

Calories: 2478
Carbs: 270g
Fat: 120g (it's mostly 'good' fats)
Protein: 113g
Sodium: 2665
Sugar: 37g

Looking at the info I can see most of the sodium is from the pre-packaged food BF made for dinner, but so is most of the protein. Will be interesting to see how it differs tomorrow when I am cooking for myself all day.

[Shandi76]

Bah lost the rest of my post. Point was, that is shit deadlift form by many standards but my lumbar spine is strong as hell because I started moving real weight.

jba302, that's a lot of weight you're shifting :-) Your form isn't perfect, but you seem to round your lower back upwards a little if anything rather than letting it collapse so it is much safer than what I do. I've got really tight hip flexors and a tight thoracic spine so when the weight gets heavy I have a tendency to hyper-extend my lower back, which is unsafe.

[tuyop]

Here's an example of what happened when i got out of my head on deadlifts. 9 months before this my max was 405... this is 420x6 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrirUtHMdc

Yeah, your back is rounding so hardcore from rep 1, bro.

But I'm not sure if this is a bad thing: http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/DangerousExercises.html

Lack of recuperation is only one of four reasons of injury as outlined in the ExRx site. Like you, I once believed lower back pain was mainly caused by a weak abdominal, flexibility, etc. until I meet a researcher whose team published their findings referenced below. The studies and accompanying papers strongly suggest other biomechanical factors contributed to the health of the lower back, specifically lower back strength throughout a complete range of motion. The artificial splinting of the lower back that so many professionals advocate is a short term solution. The avoidance of full range of motion promotes deconditioning and consequently deterioration of the joint structures. (Nelson 1993, 1995) This short sightedness is in total contradiction of the most basic principles of exercise: specific adaptation to imposed demands (SAID).

[Kriegsspiel]

I just squatted 355 x10, which is a lot for me; I felt really strong and whatever during the set.  Then a while later I felt like I was gonna fucking die.  On the ride home I puked a bit all over the side of the road.  As soon as I got through the door I basically collapsed on the floor, and got a wicked cramp right above my adam's apple (??).

Ahhhh, squat days.

[tuyop]

Powerlifting.txt

But seriously though, that sounds a little like when I had rhabdomyolysis. If you notice blood in your urine (at this point) you should see a doctor.

[jba302]

But I'm not sure if this is a bad thing: http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/DangerousExercises.html
[

It isn't bad at all. Once my back is loaded and the lift really happens, there is no dynamic movement on the discs in a bad direction (more acute angle). The only dynamic movement occurs during lock out when I straighten out, which is decidedly not bad for the discs unless I super-hyperextended. There's people with much, much worse appearing rounding (KK for example, or bob peeples) with nary a lumbar strain to show for it because their cores are tight as hell for the duration.

It's good weight, but krieg is a hell of a lot stronger. I'd probably have to do 1/8th ROM squats to manage 355x10, and would probably shit myself straight out doing so.

[Kriegsspiel]

There is a difference between thoracic rounding and lumbar rounding. It's hard to tell if you have insanely large erectors, or if your lumbar is rounding, from that angle; I'd say your lumbar is rounding, especially for semi-sumo. I do more of a clean style deadlift, with a big chest... the rounded thoracic style always just felt weird to me.

[jba302]

There is a difference between thoracic rounding and lumbar rounding. It's hard to tell if you have insanely large erectors, or if your lumbar is rounding, from that angle; I'd say your lumbar is rounding, especially for semi-sumo. I do more of a clean style deadlift, with a big chest... the rounded thoracic style always just felt weird to me.

Very big erectors, plus I carry fat in my midsection more than anything, plus the belt, plus some bowing. It looks substantially worse than it actually is, my spine is not too far off. I have been trying to work on clean style but I have extremely tight hamstrings so it's tricky... my power clean looks like my back is a leaf spring.

In other news, hit a low bodyweight of 183 on sickness recovery. Started making proteni shakes again to get back up a few pounds. PB, protein powder, frozen berries, and heavy whipping cream. Should help me get back up to mediocre numbers along with Starr's 5x5.

[Cromacster]

I'd like to see information about exercise and pregnancy - specifically weight training.

Stuff on the internet is all over the map regarding this . . . some say weight training is fine, some say the valsalva maneuver kills babies (despite the fact that you use it every time you poop or blow your nose).  Some sources indicate that nothing more strenuous than walking should be done by pregnant women.

It doesn't make sense to me that a woman who has been regularly strength training prior to having a baby would need to drop all exercises the moment she learns of her pregnancy.  It also doesn't make sense to me that you would be able to keep going full force for the whole nine months.  There needs to be a happy medium, but there seems to be surprisingly little research about this.

I am not a woman, but from the women I have worked out with that have been pregnant, they still do all of the weights and movements, they usually modify burpees and scale the weights.

Not saying this is science or proof of what you can and can't do during pregnancy, but this is a interesting twist on the weekly pictorial that women do sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83of2QEwizo

(Please don't start the kipping vs. not kipping debate)

[jba302]

Krieg - still want to see that 355x10. youtube that shit!

Got my blood work back as well, figured worth sharing in a fitness thread:
Resting HR - 65
BP - 117/78
Cholesterol - 187
Triglycerides - 72
HDL - 46
Chol/HDL ratio - 4.1
LDL - 127
B12 - 513
serum folate - 24
thyroid - 2.43
Total test - 615
Free test (EQ dialysis) - 19 (3%)

Not terrible for a 30 y/o that considers running to the car when it rains "cardio."

[GuitarStv]

I'd like to see information about exercise and pregnancy - specifically weight training.

Stuff on the internet is all over the map regarding this . . . some say weight training is fine, some say the valsalva maneuver kills babies (despite the fact that you use it every time you poop or blow your nose).  Some sources indicate that nothing more strenuous than walking should be done by pregnant women.

It doesn't make sense to me that a woman who has been regularly strength training prior to having a baby would need to drop all exercises the moment she learns of her pregnancy.  It also doesn't make sense to me that you would be able to keep going full force for the whole nine months.  There needs to be a happy medium, but there seems to be surprisingly little research about this.

I am not a woman, but from the women I have worked out with that have been pregnant, they still do all of the weights and movements, they usually modify burpees and scale the weights.

Not saying this is science or proof of what you can and can't do during pregnancy, but this is a interesting twist on the weekly pictorial that women do sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83of2QEwizo

(Please don't start the kipping vs. not kipping debate)

FWIW, my pregnant wife has been continuing her barbell weight program with minor modifications (no flat bench press since second trimester - something about a vena cavity compression blood flow risk thingie), and about a 30% reduction in weight thus far.  So far, she's feeling pretty good about it thus far.

Funny thing . . . her midwife said that she had incredibly strong abdominal muscles, and not to do crunches anymore.  The only ab work my wife does: squats, deadlift, military press, cleans, bench press.