Author Topic: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident  (Read 5358 times)

Fru-Gal

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Musk is tweeting dozens of times a day on his social media, totally addicted. Altman and Zuck have been building bunkers and holding meetings with experts on how to survive a revolution (they realize that loyalty is their biggest problem). They rule by fear (e.g. Altman's dystopian company Worldcoin and his lighthearted cautions that his AGI might cause human extinction, but first will make him a lot of money). None of them seem happy or satisfied.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2025, 01:18:58 AM by Fru-Gal »

AuspiciousEight

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2025, 04:39:14 AM »
Meanwhile, in Tibet, there are a group of Buddhist monks who have no money and who own nothing but 2 pairs of robes and a wooden bowl and spoon, who are happy and content as can be, because they practice being at peace and content everyday.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2025, 07:53:20 AM »
Meanwhile, in Tibet, there are a group of Buddhist monks who have no money and who own nothing but 2 pairs of robes and a wooden bowl and spoon, who are happy and content as can be, because they practice being at peace and content everyday.
Meanwhile, in Myanmar, the 81% Buddhist population alternates between displacing Rohingya and killing each other.

Just Joe

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2025, 07:56:32 AM »
Maybe someday greed will be considered mental illness.

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2025, 07:58:49 AM »
As someone who has spent a lot of time among extremely wealthy folks, I've never met a single person with a NW over 50M and walked away thinking "that was a mentally healthy person whose family is thriving."

HPstache

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2025, 08:08:28 AM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2025, 08:16:29 AM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

It's also important to recognize that extreme wealth isn't just money, it's enormous responsibility for industry and often extreme leverage.

It's not just money, it's a whole way of existing that's far, far more stressful than having millions in index funds.

Extreme wealth isn't just a continuation of normal wealth, it's a while different reality where all of your opinions and decisions have often devastating impacts on countless people.

The whole understanding of human beings changes over time as people get used to fellow humans being largely commodified in their world.

Power has a really whacky effect on people, I'm not convinced the human psyche can actually handle it very well.

bacchi

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2025, 08:44:36 AM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

These studies are based on self reporting. The latest study uses an app, which asks the participant at random times how they're feeling. You can see the problems with any conclusions based on this, especially at the centimillionaire level.

AuspiciousEight

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2025, 08:56:10 AM »
Maybe someday greed will be considered mental illness.

Some people who grow up in extreme poverty develop financial anxiety and an aversion to spending money that winds up as a form of financial hoarding behavior.

Some people never do recover and spend their whole lives hoarding money and living with financial anxiety, and wind up passing away with millions of dollars having never lived a life to their full potential and instead lived a lifetime of worry and anxiety about money.

ETA: I realize this isn't the same thing. Maybe someday greed itself will be considered mentally unhealthy....

Scandium

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2025, 09:06:34 AM »
A lot of projection going on here. I have never met these Buddhist monks, so  I have no way of telling if they are in fact happy. Maybe they are miserable? I don't know!
And Musk certainly seems unstable, but maybe he's happy like this? I have no idea. I'm not in his head.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2025, 01:23:21 PM »
A lot of projection going on here. I have never met these Buddhist monks, so  I have no way of telling if they are in fact happy. Maybe they are miserable? I don't know!
And Musk certainly seems unstable, but maybe he's happy like this? I have no idea. I'm not in his head.

You're not in his head, but he has aims to be in yours.

Herbert Derp

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2025, 02:20:29 PM »
I dunno, Zuckerberg seems like a pretty happy dude. Bezos also comes off as a happy person. Musk and Altman, yeah, they don’t seem particularly happy. Money doesn’t make you happy, it only gives opportunities for happiness.

Zuckerberg and Bezos are using their money to live their best lives and have a ton of fun, Musk and Altman are neck deep in vicious drama and don’t make time for any fun in their lives. The world is what you make of it.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2025, 02:26:57 PM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

These studies are based on self reporting. The latest study uses an app, which asks the participant at random times how they're feeling. You can see the problems with any conclusions based on this, especially at the centimillionaire level.

There was some study a few years back that determined that the optimal income for happiness was $75,000 a year. However, there has since been more studying:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/money-happiness-study-daniel-kahneman-500000-versus-75000/

reeshau

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2025, 02:28:56 PM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

It's also important to recognize that extreme wealth isn't just money, it's enormous responsibility for industry and often extreme leverage.

It's not just money, it's a whole way of existing that's far, far more stressful than having millions in index funds.

Extreme wealth isn't just a continuation of normal wealth, it's a while different reality where all of your opinions and decisions have often devastating impacts on countless people.

The whole understanding of human beings changes over time as people get used to fellow humans being largely commodified in their world.

Power has a really whacky effect on people, I'm not convinced the human psyche can actually handle it very well.

I think my happiness would take a big hit the day I felt I needed a personal security detail.  Maybe the tradeoff is worth it, but it would feel like walking into a bubble.

I have traveled with people with security details before.  It's a kick to see it a few times, but not the way I would want to have to order my life.

Scandium

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2025, 08:19:17 AM »
I dunno, Zuckerberg seems like a pretty happy dude. Bezos also comes off as a happy person. Musk and Altman, yeah, they don’t seem particularly happy. Money doesn’t make you happy, it only gives opportunities for happiness.

Zuckerberg and Bezos are using their money to live their best lives and have a ton of fun, Musk and Altman are neck deep in vicious drama and don’t make time for any fun in their lives. The world is what you make of it.

I feel like we also need to compare to the baseline, the null hypothesis. Is Musk more or less happy now, than he would be with $40k annual income (or 75k or whatever)? From the outside at least he does seem like a miserable piece of shit and yes not particularly happy or content. But maybe he would have been even more unhappy if he had less money?? Thus his money made him more happy. So is OP stating that money doesn't make you "fully happy", or that it doesn't "make you happier"? The former seems correct, but I don't think the latter is necessarily true, even past the minimal required.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2025, 09:20:08 AM »
I have a thesis which is that money is not what money used to be. And that our baseline wealth as Americans, but it really generally most humans at this point, is so incredibly wealthy and has access to so much technology, food, travel, that there is no appreciable difference between a billionaire and me.

Plus, you also have the concept of time billionaire and FIRE makes you one.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2025, 10:05:57 AM »
I dunno, Zuckerberg seems like a pretty happy dude. Bezos also comes off as a happy person. Musk and Altman, yeah, they don’t seem particularly happy. Money doesn’t make you happy, it only gives opportunities for happiness.

Zuckerberg and Bezos are using their money to live their best lives and have a ton of fun, Musk and Altman are neck deep in vicious drama and don’t make time for any fun in their lives. The world is what you make of it.

I feel like we also need to compare to the baseline, the null hypothesis. Is Musk more or less happy now, than he would be with $40k annual income (or 75k or whatever)? From the outside at least he does seem like a miserable piece of shit and yes not particularly happy or content. But maybe he would have been even more unhappy if he had less money?? Thus his money made him more happy. So is OP stating that money doesn't make you "fully happy", or that it doesn't "make you happier"? The former seems correct, but I don't think the latter is necessarily true, even past the minimal required.

I agree that Bezos and Zuckerberg are acting as typical middle-aged guys living their best life and either trying not to get divorced or going onto that second marriage.

As @Metalcat noted, these guys are in a whole different level. But it’s also seems evident that they’re continuing to play a resource scarcity game with each other. Unfortunately, we are the pawns. I’m of the rare opinion that there’s nothing wrong with having billions of dollars because money is itself imaginary. What I don’t like is when a few of those people with billions want to regulate my body and choices, not to mention destroy the natural world which I love so deeply and also possibly send my children off to war.

So that’s when I start noticing that they don’t seem to be particularly happy. It makes me wonder how could we engage them in a different game?

Sandi_k

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2025, 10:25:18 AM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

There was some study a few years back that determined that the optimal income for happiness was $75,000 a year. However, there has since been more studying:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/money-happiness-study-daniel-kahneman-500000-versus-75000/

Yeah, Kahneman received the Nobel in 2002. He was an economist, who helped define some aspects of the behavioral economics field, which integrated economic theory and psych research.

The Nobel committee cited his accomplishments at having integrated insights from psychological research into economic science, especially concerning human judgment and decision-making.

In regards to happiness and money, Dacher Keltner is the primary name in the social psychology field, and Kahneman paid attention.

Keltner founded the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, and he now runs the Social Interaction Lab there.

https://bsil.studentorg.berkeley.edu/people/

Log

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2025, 11:09:41 AM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

These studies are based on self reporting. The latest study uses an app, which asks the participant at random times how they're feeling. You can see the problems with any conclusions based on this, especially at the centimillionaire level.

Moment-to-moment experienced well-being stops rising after a certain amount of money. Reported life satisfaction continues to rise with more money. Those are two different forms of “happiness.”

bacchi

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2025, 11:18:01 AM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

These studies are based on self reporting. The latest study uses an app, which asks the participant at random times how they're feeling. You can see the problems with any conclusions based on this, especially at the centimillionaire level.

Moment-to-moment experienced well-being stops rising after a certain amount of money. Reported life satisfaction continues to rise with more money. Those are two different forms of “happiness.”

Ah, fair. I assume the study measured both then.

It did stop at $500k, presumably because finding enough people above that income willing to participate was difficult.

Edit:

Let's go back to the 2021 study. Note the respondents were employed, working-age adults. No retirees were part of the survey.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2016976118

Both experienced well-being and life satisfaction kept rising with more income. See Figure 1 in the above link.

Incomes above $500k weren't well represented: "Incomes over $500,000 were quite rare, collectively comprising just 1.2% of the sample..."

A follow up study was done with Kahneman (the $75k author) and Killingsworth. They grouped the respondents into 3 groups.

Quote from: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2208661120
We discovered in a joint reanalysis of the experience sampling data that the flattening pattern exists but is restricted to the least happy 20% of the population,

This means that, if a billionaire is in that 20% group, they can legit be unhappy even while they fly around in a private jet to their many mansions.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 11:40:07 AM by bacchi »

Scandium

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2025, 11:56:18 AM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

These studies are based on self reporting. The latest study uses an app, which asks the participant at random times how they're feeling. You can see the problems with any conclusions based on this, especially at the centimillionaire level.

Moment-to-moment experienced well-being stops rising after a certain amount of money. Reported life satisfaction continues to rise with more money. Those are two different forms of “happiness.”

I feel it can also vary dramatically with your life situation. Money can solve a lot of problems when they occur. But in normal day to day life I think it's pretty clear that "spending more" doesn't not necessarily correlate to more happiness.
One can be perfectly content living on a $50k/year income with no assets. But if you then loose your job and break your leg and can't work for months, I imagine you'd be much "happier" during that period if you had $100k saved up, than if you had zero.

Luke Warm

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2025, 12:58:55 PM »
Musk seems like he's on the spectrum.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2025, 01:30:29 PM »
Musk seems like he's on the spectrum.

Back in May 2021:

"Tech entrepreneur Elon Musk has revealed he has Asperger's syndrome while appearing on the US comedy sketch series Saturday Night Live (SNL)."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57045770

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2025, 01:32:33 PM »
"The new research is based on surveys that asked people to rate their life satisfaction from 1 to 7, with the lower end representing "not at all" happy to the top number indicating "extremely" satisfied. Low-income people earning about $30,000 or less gave their lives an average rating of about 4, while people earning about $500,000 rated their lives above 5.

But multimillionaires gave their life satisfaction an average rating closer to 6."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/money-buys-happiness-study-finds-rich-are-happier-research/

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2025, 01:41:03 PM »
Musk seems like he's on the spectrum.

He’s self-diagnosed, and also, being autistic does not mean being depressed, unhappy, sexist, a narcissist, a megalomaniac, etc. Personally I’ve never thought he seemed autistic in the slightest. I know tons of people who speak and act like him, just without the power and money.

Interestingly, narcissism and Asperger’s have similar traits, and one can often be confused for the other.

Herbert Derp

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2025, 05:07:01 PM »
Agreed that Elon Musk comes off as a miserable person, and he also admits the same.

Jeff Bezos on the other hand seems so happy now that he’s retired. He appears to be living his best life.

Just take a look at this video of Jeff in his rocket factory. He’s so happy, like a kid in a candy shop! His enthusiasm, passion, and zest for life comes through so strong in this video.
https://youtu.be/rsuqSn7ifpU

It’s worth noting that Elon has more money and a bigger, better, and more advanced rocket factory than Jeff. Jeff is going to fly his rockets to the Moon, but Elon’s rockets will fly to Mars. But yet, Elon is miserable and Jeff is having a blast. Life is what you make of it.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 05:24:44 PM by Herbert Derp »

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2025, 06:56:30 PM »
Musk seems like he's on the spectrum.

He’s self-diagnosed, and also, being autistic does not mean being depressed, unhappy, sexist, a narcissist, a megalomaniac, etc. Personally I’ve never thought he seemed autistic in the slightest. I know tons of people who speak and act like him, just without the power and money.

Interestingly, narcissism and Asperger’s have similar traits, and one can often be confused for the other.

As someone who works with a lot of very successful autistic engineering types, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his self-diagnosis of autism is accurate.

It's not why he's such a miserable fucking asshole, I'm gonna look more towards the toxic family or origin for that one, but it would shock me if he turned out to not have autism. Not because of his personality, but because of his remarkably rigid frameworks of understanding.

All you have to do is look at his father for an understanding of where the d-bag traits come from.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2025, 07:57:16 PM »
According to studies, money does in fact make people more happy.  However it's not the only thing that does, and it begins to taper off as you make more.

It's also important to recognize that extreme wealth isn't just money, it's enormous responsibility for industry and often extreme leverage.

It's not just money, it's a whole way of existing that's far, far more stressful than having millions in index funds.

Extreme wealth isn't just a continuation of normal wealth, it's a while different reality where all of your opinions and decisions have often devastating impacts on countless people.

The whole understanding of human beings changes over time as people get used to fellow humans being largely commodified in their world.

Power has a really whacky effect on people, I'm not convinced the human psyche can actually handle it very well.

I think my happiness would take a big hit the day I felt I needed a personal security detail.  Maybe the tradeoff is worth it, but it would feel like walking into a bubble.

I have traveled with people with security details before.  It's a kick to see it a few times, but not the way I would want to have to order my life.

I am the security detail.  I wouldn’t want to have me.

Just Joe

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2025, 10:45:35 AM »
So many of us ordinary people are trying to improve ourselves. Imagine having billions of dollars and the freedom to see the best in the business for whatever ails a person.

And then not do it...

Big assumption there on my part of course.

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2025, 11:15:09 AM »
So many of us ordinary people are trying to improve ourselves. Imagine having billions of dollars and the freedom to see the best in the business for whatever ails a person.

And then not do it...

Big assumption there on my part of course.

They *are* working on improving themselves. Their version of improving themselves is to accrue ever-increasing power, that IS self-improvement to the kind of person who is willing to do what it takes to become a billionaire.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2025, 11:45:39 AM »
Whelp. I figured out what game they're playing and it ain't good.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2025, 12:25:49 PM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2025, 01:16:27 PM »
We’ve been looking at the wrong thing. What if this isn’t fascism, per se. Instead what if the strongest part of the coalition now in power (tech billionaires) aims to dismantle the nation-states global model? They’ve spoken aloud and frequently about this very concept. Some of them yearn for a model of principalities, which lasted from the Middle Ages to the 19th century.

Four things that came to me last night:

1) Colonizing Mars. Musks understands that we won’t terraform Mars in his lifetime. But once a colonizer… There’s territory right under his feet that he could colonize.

2) Homelessness, retail and infrastructure decline. People often say, “why don’t billionaires fix the broken things that they see right in front of them?” I’m not saying that’s their duty, but what if allowing fast decay (and the decay HAS been fast, the rise of homelessness and fentanyl addiction has taken less than a decade) is intentional? (Included in this is the decay of retail shops, which erode tax bases, and the decay of other types of infrastructure.) The MAGA party arose on the premise that the USA is a garbage country. So now they act quickly to overthrow it.

3) Curtis Yarvin’s true goal. He has been talking about this stuff for years but up to now I thought the point was to replace a president with a king. Now it seems he’s suggesting we need to move to a Middle Ages model. He also notes that the public is ready to accept this, because of the Truman Show effect. He says we see that reality is a fiction, but we don’t understand (like he does) the meaning of that fiction. (I don’t know what he means by that.)

4) A new game. To @Metalcat ’s point, billionaires and those in the AI/Singularity race are accustomed to pushing the boundaries of what’s possible. Not only that, they need to do that due to the absolute sanity-busting amount of power and optionality they have at this moment. Think about all the MMORPG players out there, and how popular such games are with the tech elite. Why not move the game over to real life? Emboldened by the lack of consequences so far, that’s exactly what they’re doing.

I don't believe something this extreme can come to fruition. But it is possible that the Bannon/Flynn/Manafort/Stone trolls of the first term were a first generation of sedition characterized by Russo-fascism, while Thiel/Altman/Musk/Yarvin/Andreessen/Vance trolls represent a 2nd generation of sedition characterized by neofeudalism.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2025, 01:53:04 PM by Fru-Gal »

Just Joe

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2025, 02:50:56 PM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

scottish

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2025, 03:22:50 PM »
We’ve been looking at the wrong thing. What if this isn’t fascism, per se. Instead what if the strongest part of the coalition now in power (tech billionaires) aims to dismantle the nation-states global model? They’ve spoken aloud and frequently about this very concept. Some of them yearn for a model of principalities, which lasted from the Middle Ages to the 19th century.

Four things that came to me last night:

1) Colonizing Mars. Musks understands that we won’t terraform Mars in his lifetime. But once a colonizer… There’s territory right under his feet that he could colonize.

2) Homelessness, retail and infrastructure decline. People often say, “why don’t billionaires fix the broken things that they see right in front of them?” I’m not saying that’s their duty, but what if allowing fast decay (and the decay HAS been fast, the rise of homelessness and fentanyl addiction has taken less than a decade) is intentional? (Included in this is the decay of retail shops, which erode tax bases, and the decay of other types of infrastructure.) The MAGA party arose on the premise that the USA is a garbage country. So now they act quickly to overthrow it.

3) Curtis Yarvin’s true goal. He has been talking about this stuff for years but up to now I thought the point was to replace a president with a king. Now it seems he’s suggesting we need to move to a Middle Ages model. He also notes that the public is ready to accept this, because of the Truman Show effect. He says we see that reality is a fiction, but we don’t understand (like he does) the meaning of that fiction. (I don’t know what he means by that.)

4) A new game. To @Metalcat ’s point, billionaires and those in the AI/Singularity race are accustomed to pushing the boundaries of what’s possible. Not only that, they need to do that due to the absolute sanity-busting amount of power and optionality they have at this moment. Think about all the MMORPG players out there, and how popular such games are with the tech elite. Why not move the game over to real life? Emboldened by the lack of consequences so far, that’s exactly what they’re doing.

I don't believe something this extreme can come to fruition. But it is possible that the Bannon/Flynn/Manafort/Stone trolls of the first term were a first generation of sedition characterized by Russo-fascism, while Thiel/Altman/Musk/Yarvin/Andreessen/Vance trolls represent a 2nd generation of sedition characterized by neofeudalism.

Bill Gates does try to fix the things that he sees broken right in front of him, doesn't he?   

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2025, 04:43:11 PM »
We’ve been looking at the wrong thing. What if this isn’t fascism, per se. Instead what if the strongest part of the coalition now in power (tech billionaires) aims to dismantle the nation-states global model? They’ve spoken aloud and frequently about this very concept. Some of them yearn for a model of principalities, which lasted from the Middle Ages to the 19th century.

Four things that came to me last night:

1) Colonizing Mars. Musks understands that we won’t terraform Mars in his lifetime. But once a colonizer… There’s territory right under his feet that he could colonize.

2) Homelessness, retail and infrastructure decline. People often say, “why don’t billionaires fix the broken things that they see right in front of them?” I’m not saying that’s their duty, but what if allowing fast decay (and the decay HAS been fast, the rise of homelessness and fentanyl addiction has taken less than a decade) is intentional? (Included in this is the decay of retail shops, which erode tax bases, and the decay of other types of infrastructure.) The MAGA party arose on the premise that the USA is a garbage country. So now they act quickly to overthrow it.

3) Curtis Yarvin’s true goal. He has been talking about this stuff for years but up to now I thought the point was to replace a president with a king. Now it seems he’s suggesting we need to move to a Middle Ages model. He also notes that the public is ready to accept this, because of the Truman Show effect. He says we see that reality is a fiction, but we don’t understand (like he does) the meaning of that fiction. (I don’t know what he means by that.)

4) A new game. To @Metalcat ’s point, billionaires and those in the AI/Singularity race are accustomed to pushing the boundaries of what’s possible. Not only that, they need to do that due to the absolute sanity-busting amount of power and optionality they have at this moment. Think about all the MMORPG players out there, and how popular such games are with the tech elite. Why not move the game over to real life? Emboldened by the lack of consequences so far, that’s exactly what they’re doing.

I don't believe something this extreme can come to fruition. But it is possible that the Bannon/Flynn/Manafort/Stone trolls of the first term were a first generation of sedition characterized by Russo-fascism, while Thiel/Altman/Musk/Yarvin/Andreessen/Vance trolls represent a 2nd generation of sedition characterized by neofeudalism.

Bill Gates does try to fix the things that he sees broken right in front of him, doesn't he?   

Definitely. Bezos and Ellison have donated a ton of money to specific causes. Mackenzie Bezos is aiming to give all her billions away. Buffet has given a ton away and made the giving pledge. Musk has given to education, carbon-capture innovation (X prize), coding education. Soros famously has given to many charities.

My point was more just that the extreme decay in some of the areas of most concentrated wealth is a little mind-blowing. But I know that the conspiracy theories aren’t real in that they involve coordination that usually can’t occur. This is more about the in-your-face goals and motivations of a small group of tech billionaires.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2025, 12:54:19 AM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

It wasn't a rumor - Elon Musk himself said he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  There's a link up above.

Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior.  They're divided on diagnosing Elon Musk with autism, which people really can't diagnose from afar (and professionals who could diagnose him are ethically not allowed to do so, since he isn't their patient).

Elon Musk being autistic could explain a lower level of empathy.  People in that thread seem to dismiss the link between lower empathy and autism, perhaps because it isn't the case for every person with autism.  But a lack of empathy is more common in people with autism, as this clinical psychologist explains:

"Research into the link between autism, empathy, and sympathy has evolved over the past 40 years. Initially, it was believed that a lack of empathy and sympathy was a universal trait of autism, but more recent research indicates that this varies among individuals diagnosed with autism."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2025, 06:53:25 AM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

It wasn't a rumor - Elon Musk himself said he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  There's a link up above.

Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior.  They're divided on diagnosing Elon Musk with autism, which people really can't diagnose from afar (and professionals who could diagnose him are ethically not allowed to do so, since he isn't their patient).

Elon Musk being autistic could explain a lower level of empathy.  People in that thread seem to dismiss the link between lower empathy and autism, perhaps because it isn't the case for every person with autism.  But a lack of empathy is more common in people with autism, as this clinical psychologist explains:

"Research into the link between autism, empathy, and sympathy has evolved over the past 40 years. Initially, it was believed that a lack of empathy and sympathy was a universal trait of autism, but more recent research indicates that this varies among individuals diagnosed with autism."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887

I think you are constructing an understanding of autism that is not very accurate.

I work with people with autism and have for decades. Autism makes it difficult for some autistic people to empathize with other people's experiences, but it doesn't lower their overall compassion and caring for other human beings. In fact, a key feature for a lot of autistic people is an extremely rigid sense of morality.

Musk doesn't give a fuck about people and harm that comes to them as a result of his own actions. That's not autism.

I would be shocked if he doesn't have autism, but as I said already in this thread, autism is not why he's a fucking asshole. He's an asshole because he's likely significantly mentally unwell.

And smiling in interviews and saying you're happy is not a very good indicator of someone being happy. He's extremely reactive and defensive. That's not an indicator of someone who feels good in their own head.

And his own family and friends have expressed enormous concern and judgement towards him.

GilesMM

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2025, 07:41:34 AM »
I think you'll find that over a certain threshold it is not about dollars to pay your bills or fund a sunny holiday but about power and influence, which can in many cases be purchased with those dollars.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2025, 07:42:59 AM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

It wasn't a rumor - Elon Musk himself said he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  There's a link up above.

Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior.  They're divided on diagnosing Elon Musk with autism, which people really can't diagnose from afar (and professionals who could diagnose him are ethically not allowed to do so, since he isn't their patient).

Elon Musk being autistic could explain a lower level of empathy.  People in that thread seem to dismiss the link between lower empathy and autism, perhaps because it isn't the case for every person with autism.  But a lack of empathy is more common in people with autism, as this clinical psychologist explains:

"Research into the link between autism, empathy, and sympathy has evolved over the past 40 years. Initially, it was believed that a lack of empathy and sympathy was a universal trait of autism, but more recent research indicates that this varies among individuals diagnosed with autism."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887

I think you are constructing an understanding of autism that is not very accurate.

I work with people with autism and have for decades. Autism makes it difficult for some autistic people to empathize with other people's experiences, but it doesn't lower their overall compassion and caring for other human beings. In fact, a key feature for a lot of autistic people is an extremely rigid sense of morality.

Musk doesn't give a fuck about people and harm that comes to them as a result of his own actions. That's not autism.

I would be shocked if he doesn't have autism, but as I said already in this thread, autism is not why he's a fucking asshole. He's an asshole because he's likely significantly mentally unwell.

And smiling in interviews and saying you're happy is not a very good indicator of someone being happy. He's extremely reactive and defensive. That's not an indicator of someone who feels good in their own head.

And his own family and friends have expressed enormous concern and judgement towards him.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" is mentioned in the DSM-V, so if you're claiming I'm wrong about that, argue with the DSM-V.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnostic-criteria-dsm-5

An empathy deficit is more common in people with autism.  This article mentions the past research and talks of nuance, but again still admits that some people with autism have an empathy deficit.  If you're claiming the empathy deficit doesn't exist, the research and DSM-V don't support your view.

"A central idea in these works was that autistic people have an empathy ‘deficit’ relative to other people."
"Some people identified with the low empathy stereotype, while others experienced very strong empathic responses."
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/autism-and-empathy
« Last Edit: February 03, 2025, 07:45:19 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2025, 09:05:41 AM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

It wasn't a rumor - Elon Musk himself said he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  There's a link up above.

Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior.  They're divided on diagnosing Elon Musk with autism, which people really can't diagnose from afar (and professionals who could diagnose him are ethically not allowed to do so, since he isn't their patient).

Elon Musk being autistic could explain a lower level of empathy.  People in that thread seem to dismiss the link between lower empathy and autism, perhaps because it isn't the case for every person with autism.  But a lack of empathy is more common in people with autism, as this clinical psychologist explains:

"Research into the link between autism, empathy, and sympathy has evolved over the past 40 years. Initially, it was believed that a lack of empathy and sympathy was a universal trait of autism, but more recent research indicates that this varies among individuals diagnosed with autism."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887

I think you are constructing an understanding of autism that is not very accurate.

I work with people with autism and have for decades. Autism makes it difficult for some autistic people to empathize with other people's experiences, but it doesn't lower their overall compassion and caring for other human beings. In fact, a key feature for a lot of autistic people is an extremely rigid sense of morality.

Musk doesn't give a fuck about people and harm that comes to them as a result of his own actions. That's not autism.

I would be shocked if he doesn't have autism, but as I said already in this thread, autism is not why he's a fucking asshole. He's an asshole because he's likely significantly mentally unwell.

And smiling in interviews and saying you're happy is not a very good indicator of someone being happy. He's extremely reactive and defensive. That's not an indicator of someone who feels good in their own head.

And his own family and friends have expressed enormous concern and judgement towards him.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" is mentioned in the DSM-V, so if you're claiming I'm wrong about that, argue with the DSM-V.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnostic-criteria-dsm-5

An empathy deficit is more common in people with autism.  This article mentions the past research and talks of nuance, but again still admits that some people with autism have an empathy deficit.  If you're claiming the empathy deficit doesn't exist, the research and DSM-V don't support your view.

"A central idea in these works was that autistic people have an empathy ‘deficit’ relative to other people."
"Some people identified with the low empathy stereotype, while others experienced very strong empathic responses."
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/autism-and-empathy

???

I feel like you completely misunderstood my point.

I specifically said that yes, while autism can reduce people's capacity for empathy, it doesn't typically reduce their human compassion, and it often comes with very rigid moral frameworks.

You don't need to have high empathy to be able to care about people and have a strong moral compass.

Musk has no problem harming people with his actions. That's not a lack of empathy, that's a lack of respect for other humans.

As I said, I have worked with people with autism for decades, and autism DOES NOT make people stop caring about the well being of other humans. It can make it very difficult to relate to them, to understand why they feel and act the way they do, etc, etc, but it doesn't make them uncaring.

Autism is incredibly complex and frequently misunderstood, and as someone who has worked in this area and studied it professionally, I posit that you are misunderstanding it.

reeshau

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2025, 11:43:50 AM »
My mental image of someone sparring with Metalcat on psychology...

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2025, 11:54:58 AM »
My mental image of someone sparring with Metalcat on psychology...

To be fair, the concepts of empathy and compassion are complex and extremely difficult to study, so it's very easy for people to get the wrong idea about autism based on research data.

I literally *just now* got off a few hours long call with a top autism therapist in another jurisdiction where we spent most of the conversation talking about how autism is so commonly mischaracterized and misunderstood.

So no judgement from me for anyone who struggles to wrap their mind around the nuances of something tremendously difficult to grasp.

My spouse has autism, and even after knowing him for a few decades, I still don't have a super solid grasp on how his systems really work.

But I do encourage folks to have a lot of humility about what they might not understand about the very fascinating population of neurospicy folks.

Just Joe

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2025, 12:54:09 PM »
My mental image of someone sparring with Metalcat on psychology...

I didn't envision @Metalcat having blue fur at all... ;)

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2025, 01:17:32 PM »
My mental image of someone sparring with Metalcat on psychology...

I didn't envision @Metalcat having blue fur at all... ;)

<---Obviously, if you look at my avatar, the fur is black, everyone knows this about me

Log

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2025, 03:11:19 PM »
...
2) Homelessness, retail and infrastructure decline. People often say, “why don’t billionaires fix the broken things that they see right in front of them?” I’m not saying that’s their duty, but what if allowing fast decay (and the decay HAS been fast, the rise of homelessness and fentanyl addiction has taken less than a decade) is intentional? (Included in this is the decay of retail shops, which erode tax bases, and the decay of other types of infrastructure.) The MAGA party arose on the premise that the USA is a garbage country. So now they act quickly to overthrow it.
...

As far as I can tell, a lot of the "tech-right" shifted to the right because of their exasperation with progressive governance in the Bay Area failing to solve public disorder and the housing crisis. Musk was a Democrat, and then got so pissed off at the failure of Democratic governance in California and SF that he tumbled all the way down the rabbit hole to the right-wing extremism. But it started from a place of being negatively polarized against the left. I can empathize to a large degree, I just think he took it way too far.

I think one of the absolute best people to read for those of us on the Democratic/left side of the divide to understand the tech right is Scott Alexander. I think he was ahead of the curve on seeing this coming, and understands them very well, while explaining them from the perspective and language of us on the left. Some recs:

I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Outgroup - the left thinks of itself as "tolerant" because of its oppositions to the "isms" of the right, while being extremely intolerant of the right. People of different sexualities and races are not the left's outgroup. The right is. Priding ourselves on "tolerance" of our own in-group while being extremely intolerant of our out-group is very hypocritical. With the left in control of academia, journalism, bureaucracy, Hollywood, etc., people on the right really are not feeling the love of our "inclusivity."

Reactionary Philosophy in an Enormous Planet-Sized Nutshell and A Thrive/Survive Theory of the Political Spectrum - this is a pair of pieces that Alexander did on neo-reaction way back when Curtis Yarvin was an obscure anonymous blogger. He tries to engage the reactionary arguments in good faith. The first one tries to more neutrally present the reactionaries' beliefs (which might read more as conceding ground to them), while the second calls them on their bullshit some more, while also discussing more of the basic psychological difference between liberals and conservatives.

Right Is the New Left - this explores political beliefs sort of like fashionable trends. The elite are usually the early-adopters of new trends, and then as those trends trickle down the class ladder, it becomes gauche, and the elite want to differentiate themselves. If you examine politics through this lens, you can see that social justice progressivism has trickled too far down the class ladder, and the elite are now trying to distance themselves from these beliefs. Since being right wing is now considered taboo in polite middle class to upper-middle class society, it's now an assertion of status and power for these tech billionaires to openly proclaim they're on the right, because they're asserting that they're so powerful as to be immune to the social censure of polite society. They enjoy a feeling of smug superiority from developing a worldview that's "smarter" than the middle class masses with pronouns in their bios, or whatever. It's the same kind of stylistic "power move" as Zuck or Musk wearing t-shirts and jeans where other people wear suits, just with political beliefs.

Another point I'm not sure if Alexander has made that I'm sympathetic to is that because the parties have polarized around educational attainment, there's simply a lot less competition at the top in the Republican Party. It's a lot easier for a wealthy, competent, intelligent people to start throwing dollars around at Republican fundraisers and quickly become a powerful and influential power broker in the halls of government. The Democratic party is comparatively full of intelligent, competent, wealthy people, so gaining power and influence there is a lot harder and slower-going. If you're a power-hungry billionaire, the path of least resistance to more government influence is to at least feign right-wing sympathies. Along the way of feigning right-wing sympathies and spending a lot more time around right-wingers, one can quickly come to hold those beliefs more genuinely.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2025, 03:12:58 PM by Log »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2025, 03:23:04 PM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

It wasn't a rumor - Elon Musk himself said he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  There's a link up above.

Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior.  They're divided on diagnosing Elon Musk with autism, which people really can't diagnose from afar (and professionals who could diagnose him are ethically not allowed to do so, since he isn't their patient).

Elon Musk being autistic could explain a lower level of empathy.  People in that thread seem to dismiss the link between lower empathy and autism, perhaps because it isn't the case for every person with autism.  But a lack of empathy is more common in people with autism, as this clinical psychologist explains:

"Research into the link between autism, empathy, and sympathy has evolved over the past 40 years. Initially, it was believed that a lack of empathy and sympathy was a universal trait of autism, but more recent research indicates that this varies among individuals diagnosed with autism."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887

I think you are constructing an understanding of autism that is not very accurate.

I work with people with autism and have for decades. Autism makes it difficult for some autistic people to empathize with other people's experiences, but it doesn't lower their overall compassion and caring for other human beings. In fact, a key feature for a lot of autistic people is an extremely rigid sense of morality.

Musk doesn't give a fuck about people and harm that comes to them as a result of his own actions. That's not autism.

I would be shocked if he doesn't have autism, but as I said already in this thread, autism is not why he's a fucking asshole. He's an asshole because he's likely significantly mentally unwell.

And smiling in interviews and saying you're happy is not a very good indicator of someone being happy. He's extremely reactive and defensive. That's not an indicator of someone who feels good in their own head.

And his own family and friends have expressed enormous concern and judgement towards him.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" is mentioned in the DSM-V, so if you're claiming I'm wrong about that, argue with the DSM-V.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnostic-criteria-dsm-5

An empathy deficit is more common in people with autism.  This article mentions the past research and talks of nuance, but again still admits that some people with autism have an empathy deficit.  If you're claiming the empathy deficit doesn't exist, the research and DSM-V don't support your view.

"A central idea in these works was that autistic people have an empathy ‘deficit’ relative to other people."
"Some people identified with the low empathy stereotype, while others experienced very strong empathic responses."
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/autism-and-empathy

???

I feel like you completely misunderstood my point.

I specifically said that yes, while autism can reduce people's capacity for empathy, it doesn't typically reduce their human compassion, and it often comes with very rigid moral frameworks.

You don't need to have high empathy to be able to care about people and have a strong moral compass.

Musk has no problem harming people with his actions. That's not a lack of empathy, that's a lack of respect for other humans.

As I said, I have worked with people with autism for decades, and autism DOES NOT make people stop caring about the well being of other humans. It can make it very difficult to relate to them, to understand why they feel and act the way they do, etc, etc, but it doesn't make them uncaring.

Autism is incredibly complex and frequently misunderstood, and as someone who has worked in this area and studied it professionally, I posit that you are misunderstanding it.

My original post simply made the claim that Musk's lack of empathy can be attributed to his autism.  That's why I defended that specific point.

You made the claim "Musk doesn't give a fuck about other people" and that he lacks compassion, etc.  I didn't make those claims.  That isn't a misunderstanding by me, that is you injecting these things into my post, when I never made claims about them.  I specifically said the lack of empathy, in a long list of traits mentioned in this thread, can be attributed to his autism.

Fru-Gal

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2025, 04:17:58 PM »
...
2) Homelessness, retail and infrastructure decline. People often say, “why don’t billionaires fix the broken things that they see right in front of them?” I’m not saying that’s their duty, but what if allowing fast decay (and the decay HAS been fast, the rise of homelessness and fentanyl addiction has taken less than a decade) is intentional? (Included in this is the decay of retail shops, which erode tax bases, and the decay of other types of infrastructure.) The MAGA party arose on the premise that the USA is a garbage country. So now they act quickly to overthrow it.
...

As far as I can tell, a lot of the "tech-right" shifted to the right because of their exasperation with progressive governance in the Bay Area failing to solve public disorder and the housing crisis. Musk was a Democrat, and then got so pissed off at the failure of Democratic governance in California and SF that he tumbled all the way down the rabbit hole to the right-wing extremism. But it started from a place of being negatively polarized against the left. I can empathize to a large degree, I just think he took it way too far.

I think one of the absolute best people to read for those of us on the Democratic/left side of the divide to understand the tech right is Scott Alexander. I think he was ahead of the curve on seeing this coming, and understands them very well, while explaining them from the perspective and language of us on the left. Some recs:

I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Outgroup - the left thinks of itself as "tolerant" because of its oppositions to the "isms" of the right, while being extremely intolerant of the right. People of different sexualities and races are not the left's outgroup. The right is. Priding ourselves on "tolerance" of our own in-group while being extremely intolerant of our out-group is very hypocritical. With the left in control of academia, journalism, bureaucracy, Hollywood, etc., people on the right really are not feeling the love of our "inclusivity."

Reactionary Philosophy in an Enormous Planet-Sized Nutshell and A Thrive/Survive Theory of the Political Spectrum - this is a pair of pieces that Alexander did on neo-reaction way back when Curtis Yarvin was an obscure anonymous blogger. He tries to engage the reactionary arguments in good faith. The first one tries to more neutrally present the reactionaries' beliefs (which might read more as conceding ground to them), while the second calls them on their bullshit some more, while also discussing more of the basic psychological difference between liberals and conservatives.

Right Is the New Left - this explores political beliefs sort of like fashionable trends. The elite are usually the early-adopters of new trends, and then as those trends trickle down the class ladder, it becomes gauche, and the elite want to differentiate themselves. If you examine politics through this lens, you can see that social justice progressivism has trickled too far down the class ladder, and the elite are now trying to distance themselves from these beliefs. Since being right wing is now considered taboo in polite middle class to upper-middle class society, it's now an assertion of status and power for these tech billionaires to openly proclaim they're on the right, because they're asserting that they're so powerful as to be immune to the social censure of polite society. They enjoy a feeling of smug superiority from developing a worldview that's "smarter" than the middle class masses with pronouns in their bios, or whatever. It's the same kind of stylistic "power move" as Zuck or Musk wearing t-shirts and jeans where other people wear suits, just with political beliefs.

Another point I'm not sure if Alexander has made that I'm sympathetic to is that because the parties have polarized around educational attainment, there's simply a lot less competition at the top in the Republican Party. It's a lot easier for a wealthy, competent, intelligent people to start throwing dollars around at Republican fundraisers and quickly become a powerful and influential power broker in the halls of government. The Democratic party is comparatively full of intelligent, competent, wealthy people, so gaining power and influence there is a lot harder and slower-going. If you're a power-hungry billionaire, the path of least resistance to more government influence is to at least feign right-wing sympathies. Along the way of feigning right-wing sympathies and spending a lot more time around right-wingers, one can quickly come to hold those beliefs more genuinely.

Wow, great insights, especially your “Right is the New Left”. Thank you!

Metalcat

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2025, 04:34:30 PM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

It wasn't a rumor - Elon Musk himself said he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  There's a link up above.

Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior.  They're divided on diagnosing Elon Musk with autism, which people really can't diagnose from afar (and professionals who could diagnose him are ethically not allowed to do so, since he isn't their patient).

Elon Musk being autistic could explain a lower level of empathy.  People in that thread seem to dismiss the link between lower empathy and autism, perhaps because it isn't the case for every person with autism.  But a lack of empathy is more common in people with autism, as this clinical psychologist explains:

"Research into the link between autism, empathy, and sympathy has evolved over the past 40 years. Initially, it was believed that a lack of empathy and sympathy was a universal trait of autism, but more recent research indicates that this varies among individuals diagnosed with autism."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887

I think you are constructing an understanding of autism that is not very accurate.

I work with people with autism and have for decades. Autism makes it difficult for some autistic people to empathize with other people's experiences, but it doesn't lower their overall compassion and caring for other human beings. In fact, a key feature for a lot of autistic people is an extremely rigid sense of morality.

Musk doesn't give a fuck about people and harm that comes to them as a result of his own actions. That's not autism.

I would be shocked if he doesn't have autism, but as I said already in this thread, autism is not why he's a fucking asshole. He's an asshole because he's likely significantly mentally unwell.

And smiling in interviews and saying you're happy is not a very good indicator of someone being happy. He's extremely reactive and defensive. That's not an indicator of someone who feels good in their own head.

And his own family and friends have expressed enormous concern and judgement towards him.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" is mentioned in the DSM-V, so if you're claiming I'm wrong about that, argue with the DSM-V.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnostic-criteria-dsm-5

An empathy deficit is more common in people with autism.  This article mentions the past research and talks of nuance, but again still admits that some people with autism have an empathy deficit.  If you're claiming the empathy deficit doesn't exist, the research and DSM-V don't support your view.

"A central idea in these works was that autistic people have an empathy ‘deficit’ relative to other people."
"Some people identified with the low empathy stereotype, while others experienced very strong empathic responses."
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/autism-and-empathy

???

I feel like you completely misunderstood my point.

I specifically said that yes, while autism can reduce people's capacity for empathy, it doesn't typically reduce their human compassion, and it often comes with very rigid moral frameworks.

You don't need to have high empathy to be able to care about people and have a strong moral compass.

Musk has no problem harming people with his actions. That's not a lack of empathy, that's a lack of respect for other humans.

As I said, I have worked with people with autism for decades, and autism DOES NOT make people stop caring about the well being of other humans. It can make it very difficult to relate to them, to understand why they feel and act the way they do, etc, etc, but it doesn't make them uncaring.

Autism is incredibly complex and frequently misunderstood, and as someone who has worked in this area and studied it professionally, I posit that you are misunderstanding it.

My original post simply made the claim that Musk's lack of empathy can be attributed to his autism.  That's why I defended that specific point.

You made the claim "Musk doesn't give a fuck about other people" and that he lacks compassion, etc.  I didn't make those claims.  That isn't a misunderstanding by me, that is you injecting these things into my post, when I never made claims about them.  I specifically said the lack of empathy, in a long list of traits mentioned in this thread, can be attributed to his autism.

Yeah, your original post was about how he might have low empathy, but you made that post in response to people talking about his demonstrated behaviour.

His demonstrated behaviour shows a lack of compassion, not a lack of empathy because a lack of empathy does not define behaviour.

None of us can know what his internal processes are like, we can only observe his behaviours. Having lower empathy is not a behaviour, nor does it in any way make someone lack compassion.

So if you bring up his possibly low empathy in the context of discussing his behaviour, then the most logical response is for me to trace the path of how an internal processing pattern may or may not predict a lack of compassion, and it doesn't.

You might as well join a thread about him being an asshole and say "well autism correlates with joint laxity." People are going to respond with "okay...but joint laxity doesn't explain him being an asshole." And then you lecture the person about how the correlation real, and they reply "yeah, but it still doesn't explain why he's an asshole, which is what we're taking about." And you're like "but I wasn't talking about him being an asshole, I was talking about joint laxity."

Okay...so you're talking about joint laxity in a thread about him being an asshole. How does that make any sense?!!!

Make it make sense to me. What were you trying to attribute to his possibly low empathy??

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: The fact that money doesn't make you happy has never been more evident
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2025, 06:12:20 PM »
Regarding a couple claims that Elon Musk isn't happy, he claims he is happy when both work and family are going well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjiWtqCj4s8

He seems to laugh easily in the interviews I've seen of him.  I have this possibly wrong belief that people with autism don't share the same sense of humor as neurotypicals.  It is a bit odd that Musk laughs easily, and admits he has autism.

It is more disturbing, to me, that he supports Germany's AfD.  They are a far right party often viewed as neo-Nazi.

Is rumors of his autism his disguise? (fictional condition to hide his real abilities)

It wasn't a rumor - Elon Musk himself said he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  There's a link up above.

Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior.  They're divided on diagnosing Elon Musk with autism, which people really can't diagnose from afar (and professionals who could diagnose him are ethically not allowed to do so, since he isn't their patient).

Elon Musk being autistic could explain a lower level of empathy.  People in that thread seem to dismiss the link between lower empathy and autism, perhaps because it isn't the case for every person with autism.  But a lack of empathy is more common in people with autism, as this clinical psychologist explains:

"Research into the link between autism, empathy, and sympathy has evolved over the past 40 years. Initially, it was believed that a lack of empathy and sympathy was a universal trait of autism, but more recent research indicates that this varies among individuals diagnosed with autism."
https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-people-with-autism-lack-empathy-259887

I think you are constructing an understanding of autism that is not very accurate.

I work with people with autism and have for decades. Autism makes it difficult for some autistic people to empathize with other people's experiences, but it doesn't lower their overall compassion and caring for other human beings. In fact, a key feature for a lot of autistic people is an extremely rigid sense of morality.

Musk doesn't give a fuck about people and harm that comes to them as a result of his own actions. That's not autism.

I would be shocked if he doesn't have autism, but as I said already in this thread, autism is not why he's a fucking asshole. He's an asshole because he's likely significantly mentally unwell.

And smiling in interviews and saying you're happy is not a very good indicator of someone being happy. He's extremely reactive and defensive. That's not an indicator of someone who feels good in their own head.

And his own family and friends have expressed enormous concern and judgement towards him.

"Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity" is mentioned in the DSM-V, so if you're claiming I'm wrong about that, argue with the DSM-V.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnostic-criteria-dsm-5

An empathy deficit is more common in people with autism.  This article mentions the past research and talks of nuance, but again still admits that some people with autism have an empathy deficit.  If you're claiming the empathy deficit doesn't exist, the research and DSM-V don't support your view.

"A central idea in these works was that autistic people have an empathy ‘deficit’ relative to other people."
"Some people identified with the low empathy stereotype, while others experienced very strong empathic responses."
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/autism-and-empathy

???

I feel like you completely misunderstood my point.

I specifically said that yes, while autism can reduce people's capacity for empathy, it doesn't typically reduce their human compassion, and it often comes with very rigid moral frameworks.

You don't need to have high empathy to be able to care about people and have a strong moral compass.

Musk has no problem harming people with his actions. That's not a lack of empathy, that's a lack of respect for other humans.

As I said, I have worked with people with autism for decades, and autism DOES NOT make people stop caring about the well being of other humans. It can make it very difficult to relate to them, to understand why they feel and act the way they do, etc, etc, but it doesn't make them uncaring.

Autism is incredibly complex and frequently misunderstood, and as someone who has worked in this area and studied it professionally, I posit that you are misunderstanding it.

My original post simply made the claim that Musk's lack of empathy can be attributed to his autism.  That's why I defended that specific point.

You made the claim "Musk doesn't give a fuck about other people" and that he lacks compassion, etc.  I didn't make those claims.  That isn't a misunderstanding by me, that is you injecting these things into my post, when I never made claims about them.  I specifically said the lack of empathy, in a long list of traits mentioned in this thread, can be attributed to his autism.

Yeah, your original post was about how he might have low empathy, but you made that post in response to people talking about his demonstrated behaviour.

His demonstrated behaviour shows a lack of compassion, not a lack of empathy because a lack of empathy does not define behaviour.

None of us can know what his internal processes are like, we can only observe his behaviours. Having lower empathy is not a behaviour, nor does it in any way make someone lack compassion.

So if you bring up his possibly low empathy in the context of discussing his behaviour, then the most logical response is for me to trace the path of how an internal processing pattern may or may not predict a lack of compassion, and it doesn't.

You might as well join a thread about him being an asshole and say "well autism correlates with joint laxity." People are going to respond with "okay...but joint laxity doesn't explain him being an asshole." And then you lecture the person about how the correlation real, and they reply "yeah, but it still doesn't explain why he's an asshole, which is what we're taking about." And you're like "but I wasn't talking about him being an asshole, I was talking about joint laxity."

Okay...so you're talking about joint laxity in a thread about him being an asshole. How does that make any sense?!!!

Make it make sense to me. What were you trying to attribute to his possibly low empathy??

I disagree this is "a thread about him being an asshole".  If you mean the overall thread, the topic is money making people happy or not.  I posted about that topic before Elon Musk had been mentioned.  And when I posted a link about Musk admitting he has autism, I followed it up by returning to the topic of money and happiness.  Most of the posts in this overall thread are not "about him being an asshole".  You're wrong about that.  You can see posts where people are still trying to discuss happiness, billionaires donating to charity, and other things besides "him being an asshole".  The overall topic is about money and happiness, which is the context in which Elon was originally brought up.

On the topic of money and happiness, two posters claimed that Musk wasn't happy.  They provided no evidence, so I posted a link showing that Musk himself says his happiness depends on business and family.  Look at the first post in this conversation - that is what I posted about.  I was not, as you claim, replying to others about his behavior - I was continuing the topic of money and happiness.  If you think I was responding to Musk's behavior, how do you explain the first sentence and link of my first post in this conversation?

I have replied to a couple posters that Musk has admitted he has autism on Saturday Night Live.  And my first post in this conversation mentions how often Musk laughs, which is relevant to his happiness, but not to "him being an asshole" or not.  Someone laughing more or less doesn't determine if they're an asshole.  My mention of autism at the start of this conversation was also about Musk laughing.

If your focus is Musk's behavior, why did you ignore the one time I mentioned "Musk's behavior"?
"Peeking in r/autism, those in the Autism forum believe Musk having autism doesn't excuse his behavior."

The overall thread isn't about "him being an asshole", nor are my posts in this conversation about that.  This conversation started with me posting about Musk's happiness with a link, where others simply made claims without evidence.  Someone else asked about Musk's autism, so I replied to them, but again kept discussing Musk's happiness.  The start of this conversation, if you go back and look, is not about "him being an asshole".  You're wrong about that.  When I point to specific things I said, which you're ignoring, that doesn't seem to change your view of the conversation.

If your goal is to have a conversation about "him being an asshole", wouldn't that be a topic for another thread?  People here were trying to discuss money and happiness, and this conversation doesn't really help keep it on topic.