Author Topic: The Election Results Thread  (Read 60310 times)

Clever Name

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #250 on: November 09, 2016, 11:58:34 AM »
What egregious emails were those? What laws were broken? I wish someone could break that down for me. Seriously, please do. The reality is, there is nothing there. I'm not a huge Hilary fan, but please respond with something substantive instead of "she's corrupt. She's a liar."

I think we need to get off of the emails now. I think Trump will never mention them or jailing Clinton again. Trump has a track record of viciously attacking his opponents and then basically ignoring (or praising) them after he wins.

I also think the Republicans are going to spend time passing legislation rather than investigating a failed candidate.

I agree that I don't think Trump actually cares about the emails or will bring them up again.  But I really don't know who is going to run his cabinet and inner circle, and there are some people who are definitely out for blood on emails. 

I'm still thinking this all through, but I'm not sure what policies Trump will actually push now that he is in charge.  I don't think the TPP was going through either way.  I guess he could try to reform the tax code but that seems beyond our gridlocked Congress' capabilities right now.  I don't think he actually cares much about immigration, either, but we'll see how protectionist/populist the Senate ends up being. 

I guess I keep coming back to being more afraid of things he does accidentally than concerted policy efforts.

He ha a republican house and senate and within the first 100 days probably a republican supreme court.  He can just rubberstamp everything the republicans want and there is very little the democrats can do about it.

You're forgetting that it now takes 60 votes in the Senate to do anything. Democrats have more than enough seats to filibuster.

eljefe-speaks

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #251 on: November 09, 2016, 12:08:27 PM »
On the plus side, I'm really motivated now to try to be a really good person and make the world a better place. It looks like these sentiments are echoed by some in this thread which I find encouraging.

TOTALLY agree. My city has a really good volunteer program for assisting newly-arrived refugees. I am going to contact them. This, of course, assumes refugees can stay in the country.

My takeaway is to stay the eff away from heavily biased news sources from now on. I honestly did not know I was in an echo chamber. Their polls, opinion pieces were just wildly off-base.

Election is over, Trump, time to govern.

Exactly what news sources are you considering?  There is literally NO ONE in the middle, IMO not even close to it.


Huffpost had H's odds at a laughable 98%. That should have thrown up red flags. Slate had really high number for H too.

frugalnacho

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #252 on: November 09, 2016, 12:11:03 PM »
more like the fluffington post, amirite?

MDM

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #253 on: November 09, 2016, 12:18:10 PM »
You're forgetting that it now takes 60 votes in the Senate to do anything. Democrats have more than enough seats to filibuster.
Ah, but thanks to Harry Reid and the 2013 Democratic majority, that isn't true.

Don't be surprised if the Republicans turn this idea back on the Democrats:A Democratic Senate Might Need to Curtail Filibuster, Harry Reid Says - The New York Times.

hoosier

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #254 on: November 09, 2016, 12:25:25 PM »
I'm not a fan of this guy, but I think it explains a lot of what happened last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY-CiPVo_NQ

Northwestie

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #255 on: November 09, 2016, 12:29:23 PM »
In the coming days, commentators will attempt to normalize this event. They will try to soothe their readers and viewers with thoughts about the “innate wisdom” and “essential decency” of the American people. They will downplay the virulence of the nationalism displayed, the cruel decision to elevate a man who rides in a gold-plated airliner but who has staked his claim with the populist rhetoric of blood and soil.

George Orwell, the most fearless of commentators, was right to point out that public opinion is no more innately wise than humans are innately kind. People can behave foolishly, recklessly, self-destructively in the aggregate just as they can individually. Sometimes all they require is a leader of cunning, a demagogue who reads the waves of resentment and rides them to a popular victory.

“The point is that the relative freedom which we enjoy depends of public opinion,” Orwell wrote in his essay “Freedom of the Park.” “The law is no protection. Governments make laws, but whether they are carried out, and how the police behave, depends on the general temper in the country. If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even if laws exist to protect them.” MOD NOTE: This response is taken from a section of the following article in the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-2When quoting in full, linking to the source and proper attribution is standard and expected. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 01:17:05 PM by swick »

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #256 on: November 09, 2016, 12:39:20 PM »
In the coming days, commentators will attempt to normalize this event. They will try to soothe their readers and viewers with thoughts about the “innate wisdom” and “essential decency” of the American people. They will downplay the virulence of the nationalism displayed, the cruel decision to elevate a man who rides in a gold-plated airliner but who has staked his claim with the populist rhetoric of blood and soil.

George Orwell, the most fearless of commentators, was right to point out that public opinion is no more innately wise than humans are innately kind. People can behave foolishly, recklessly, self-destructively in the aggregate just as they can individually. Sometimes all they require is a leader of cunning, a demagogue who reads the waves of resentment and rides them to a popular victory.

“The point is that the relative freedom which we enjoy depends of public opinion,” Orwell wrote in his essay “Freedom of the Park.” “The law is no protection. Governments make laws, but whether they are carried out, and how the police behave, depends on the general temper in the country. If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even if laws exist to protect them.”


OTOH, amusing to view this from the viewpoint that the left tried to drive public opinion towards criminalizing (or at least making is social leprosy) a vote for Trump, and it backfired on them. 

Keep insisting your viewpoint is the only ethical one.  We now know how that works out.

bacchi

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #257 on: November 09, 2016, 12:53:57 PM »
OTOH, amusing to view this from the viewpoint that the left tried to drive public opinion towards criminalizing (or at least making is social leprosy) a vote for Trump, and it backfired on them. 

Who was trying to criminalize a vote for Trump?

StarBright

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #258 on: November 09, 2016, 12:58:11 PM »
In the coming days, commentators will attempt to normalize this event. They will try to soothe their readers and viewers with thoughts about the “innate wisdom” and “essential decency” of the American people. They will downplay the virulence of the nationalism displayed, the cruel decision to elevate a man who rides in a gold-plated airliner but who has staked his claim with the populist rhetoric of blood and soil.

George Orwell, the most fearless of commentators, was right to point out that public opinion is no more innately wise than humans are innately kind. People can behave foolishly, recklessly, self-destructively in the aggregate just as they can individually. Sometimes all they require is a leader of cunning, a demagogue who reads the waves of resentment and rides them to a popular victory.

“The point is that the relative freedom which we enjoy depends of public opinion,” Orwell wrote in his essay “Freedom of the Park.” “The law is no protection. Governments make laws, but whether they are carried out, and how the police behave, depends on the general temper in the country. If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even if laws exist to protect them.”

You should cite that Northwestie (unless you are David Remnick - in which case- Hi! I enjoy your writing!)

LeRainDrop

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #259 on: November 09, 2016, 01:06:08 PM »
In the coming days, commentators will attempt to normalize this event. They will try to soothe their readers and viewers with thoughts about the “innate wisdom” and “essential decency” of the American people. They will downplay the virulence of the nationalism displayed, the cruel decision to elevate a man who rides in a gold-plated airliner but who has staked his claim with the populist rhetoric of blood and soil.

George Orwell, the most fearless of commentators, was right to point out that public opinion is no more innately wise than humans are innately kind. People can behave foolishly, recklessly, self-destructively in the aggregate just as they can individually. Sometimes all they require is a leader of cunning, a demagogue who reads the waves of resentment and rides them to a popular victory.

“The point is that the relative freedom which we enjoy depends of public opinion,” Orwell wrote in his essay “Freedom of the Park.” “The law is no protection. Governments make laws, but whether they are carried out, and how the police behave, depends on the general temper in the country. If large numbers of people are interested in freedom of speech, there will be freedom of speech, even if the law forbids it; if public opinion is sluggish, inconvenient minorities will be persecuted, even if laws exist to protect them.”

You should cite that Northwestie (unless you are David Remnick - in which case- Hi! I enjoy your writing!)

Ohhh, very good call, StarBright.  Plagiarism is not okay!  http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-2

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #260 on: November 09, 2016, 01:07:51 PM »
OTOH, amusing to view this from the viewpoint that the left tried to drive public opinion towards criminalizing (or at least making is social leprosy) a vote for Trump, and it backfired on them. 

Who was trying to criminalize a vote for Trump?

Criminalize is the wrong word, but there was definitely a prevailing feeling (at least here in Chicagoland) that voting for Trump was Wrong, ethically, morally, etc.  Not "I disagree", actually Wrong.

hoosier

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #261 on: November 09, 2016, 01:10:03 PM »
OTOH, amusing to view this from the viewpoint that the left tried to drive public opinion towards criminalizing (or at least making is social leprosy) a vote for Trump, and it backfired on them. 

Who was trying to criminalize a vote for Trump?

Criminalize is the wrong word, but there was definitely a prevailing feeling (at least here in Chicagoland) that voting for Trump was Wrong, ethically, morally, etc.  Not "I disagree", actually Wrong.

I think the word you are looking for is daemonize.

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #262 on: November 09, 2016, 01:11:23 PM »
OTOH, amusing to view this from the viewpoint that the left tried to drive public opinion towards criminalizing (or at least making is social leprosy) a vote for Trump, and it backfired on them. 

Who was trying to criminalize a vote for Trump?

Criminalize is the wrong word, but there was definitely a prevailing feeling (at least here in Chicagoland) that voting for Trump was Wrong, ethically, morally, etc.  Not "I disagree", actually Wrong.

I think the word you are looking for is daemonize.

That works. 

Jack

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #263 on: November 09, 2016, 01:12:41 PM »
If the Bernie voters crossed to Trump?  Well, you reap what you it sow the DNC reaps what it sows, man.

FTFY.

Hillary lost. It's time to stop with the delusion that anybody but the hyper-partisan Democrat cheerleaders wanted more establishment bullshit instead of Bernie.

Unless you want to fuck up 2020 too, of course...

Except I don't think Bernie could have won.

More delusion. Bernie had a better chance to win than any other liberal, in exactly the same way that Trump had a better chance than any other conservative.



Seriously, Democratic establishment people (in general, not referring specifically to people in this thread): quit trying to pretend this is about racism or sexism, and LEARN SOMETHING for once! Namely, learn that the people you actually depend on to win -- the people outside the "Democratic Party" who are usually described as "moderates" but who are actually just people who want to keep their civil rights and their money --  are sick and tired of you paying lip service to progressive ideology while actually screwing them over in the name of filthy corporatism! Hillary did not lose because of the "glass ceiling" or retaliation for Obama or whatever other lie you try to convince yourself of. Hillary lost because of her bad policies (e.g. support for the TPP), her empty rhetoric and her lack of character. Period. If you wanted to win, you should have fielded a candidate who didn't suck.

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #264 on: November 09, 2016, 01:14:44 PM »
If the Bernie voters crossed to Trump?  Well, you reap what you it sow the DNC reaps what it sows, man.

FTFY.

Hillary lost. It's time to stop with the delusion that anybody but the hyper-partisan Democrat cheerleaders wanted more establishment bullshit instead of Bernie.

Unless you want to fuck up 2020 too, of course...

Except I don't think Bernie could have won.

More delusion. Bernie had a better chance to win than any other liberal, in exactly the same way that Trump had a better chance than any other conservative.



Seriously, Democratic establishment people (in general, not referring specifically to people in this thread): quit trying to pretend this is about racism or sexism, and LEARN SOMETHING for once! Namely, learn that the people you actually depend on to win -- the people outside the "Democratic Party" who are usually described as "moderates" but who are actually just people who want to keep their civil rights and their money --  are sick and tired of you paying lip service to progressive ideology while actually screwing them over in the name of filthy corporatism! Hillary did not lose because of the "glass ceiling" or retaliation for Obama or whatever other lie you try to convince yourself of. Hillary lost because of her bad policies (e.g. support for the TPP), her empty rhetoric and her lack of character. Period. If you wanted to win, you should have fielded a candidate who didn't suck.

I'm Chris22, and I approve of this post.

waltworks

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #265 on: November 09, 2016, 01:20:39 PM »
Agree with that. There are a lot of people who feel ignored/left behind.

Now, I personally think Trump's policy proposals (inasmuch as they exist) will probably make things worse for those folks, not better - but many years of mainstream Democratic policies didn't do much of anything either.

I don't like Trump. But the establishment needed a slap in the face (or a blowing up) so hopefully many positive things come from his election.

-W

OurTown

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #266 on: November 09, 2016, 01:28:07 PM »
The good news is this will keep me off the news sites for the next four years.

onlykelsey

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #267 on: November 09, 2016, 01:30:24 PM »
Agree with that. There are a lot of people who feel ignored/left behind.

Now, I personally think Trump's policy proposals (inasmuch as they exist) will probably make things worse for those folks, not better - but many years of mainstream Democratic policies didn't do much of anything either.

I don't like Trump. But the establishment needed a slap in the face (or a blowing up) so hopefully many positive things come from his election.

-W

I basically agree with this, but I worry at whose expense the slap in the face will come.  The establishment of political parties, fine.  I worry it's going to embolden a lot of really ugly behavior towards minorities, women, Jews, etc. in the interim. 

sol

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #268 on: November 09, 2016, 01:36:28 PM »
quit trying to pretend this is about racism or sexism, and LEARN SOMETHING for once!

Like the republicans after 2012 learned they had to be more inclusive in order to expand their voter base? 

The only lesson to be learned here is that bigoted demagoguery is an efficient motivator of a bigoted electorate.  I have never been more ashamed of my countrymen.

dividendman

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #269 on: November 09, 2016, 01:37:30 PM »
Agree with that. There are a lot of people who feel ignored/left behind.

Now, I personally think Trump's policy proposals (inasmuch as they exist) will probably make things worse for those folks, not better - but many years of mainstream Democratic policies didn't do much of anything either.

I don't like Trump. But the establishment needed a slap in the face (or a blowing up) so hopefully many positive things come from his election.

-W

I basically agree with this, but I worry at whose expense the slap in the face will come.  The establishment of political parties, fine.  I worry it's going to embolden a lot of really ugly behavior towards minorities, women, Jews, etc. in the interim.

It will come at the expense of whom it always comes: the poor.

Rich people who are minorities, Muslims, Jews, etc. will be just fine.

The war on poverty is over - the poor lost.


TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #270 on: November 09, 2016, 01:47:56 PM »
As a relative social liberal/fiscal conservative, if Trump can drag the GOP kicking and screaming from some of its dumber/more divisive policies (LGBT issues, abortion, etc) that would be fantastic. 

I don't see it happening and agree with your second thought. I think the Trump supporters mainly hated Obama. Pence said it at the speech: "The American people have spoken" The election results are obviously a mandate to screw over everything they don't like.

But that's what *everyone* who wins an election does in the United States. They honestly believe that being elected to an office entitles them to abuse it in order to advance some particular religious, philosophical, or personal agenda.

American elected officials really, truly, honestly don't understand that voters don't like or trust them one bit. They simply have a set of tasks that need to be performed, and they pick the candidate who they think will do as little damage to their interests as possible. Elected officials for some reason think we like and trust them. So they misconstrue tolerance as license, and act as though they have a mandate to abuse their office by deliberately screwing people over when in reality all they have is permission to perform a set of tasks related to their office. When their incompetence, corruption, or abuse of office becomes egregious enough, voters replace them with a fresh idiot.

It's why we've become so mistrustful, polarized, and resentful.

Cassie

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #271 on: November 09, 2016, 01:59:20 PM »
I think that people can kiss the ACA goodbye. Ryan said today on TV news conference that was one of the first things on the agenda.

Papa Mustache

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #272 on: November 09, 2016, 02:01:25 PM »
What egregious emails were those? What laws were broken? I wish someone could break that down for me. Seriously, please do. The reality is, there is nothing there. I'm not a huge Hilary fan, but please respond with something substantive instead of "she's corrupt. She's a liar."

I think we need to get off of the emails now. I think Trump will never mention them or jailing Clinton again. Trump has a track record of viciously attacking his opponents and then basically ignoring (or praising) them after he wins.

I also think the Republicans are going to spend time passing legislation rather than investigating a failed candidate.

No I think we need to force the elections process to speak in terms of reality and fact. Just because the election tradition is based on lies and half-truths doesn't mean we ought to embrace that.

He ought to be held accountable for every false accusation and false promise he made along the way. Hillary too.

Our election cycles are at this point hosting outright propaganda rather "empty promises and white lies". This is a big part of why I'm so frustrated with this election. This morn my coworkers are defending Trump's "election rhetoric". I have no public opinion one way or another at work.

To the educated these words may be throwaway statements but to the uneducated these are real accusations that a couple of my coworkers believed every syllable of. People get riled up about this crap. To me this is dangerous.

It honestly seems alot like slander what he has said about HRC. She had not been convicted of anything. She had been cleared several times by investigators. I'm not naive enough to believe she is squeaky clean but she isn't what Trump said she was. Repeatedly.

I hate the precedent that this election has set - one where a man can be as disgusting as he wants to be and if he claims to be on the right political team - even the Christian right will defend him. He can say whatever he wants - thumb his nose at the fact checkers - and still be elected. He has cheapened the value of truth and honor in the democratic process.

Like Spartana - I fear there will be a whole host of people bullied right back into the shadows of our society.

Jack

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #273 on: November 09, 2016, 02:10:20 PM »
quit trying to pretend this is about racism or sexism, and LEARN SOMETHING for once!

Like the republicans after 2012 learned they had to be more inclusive in order to expand their voter base? 

The only lesson to be learned here is that bigoted demagoguery is an efficient motivator of a bigoted electorate.  I have never been more ashamed of my countrymen.

I'm ashamed of them too.

But you're wrong: Trump didn't win because of his bigotry; he won because of his populist anti-establishment message. Democrats need to understand that! You know how for the last several elections -- including the Republican primary -- Democrats were laughing it up about how out-of-touch the establishment Republicans were? Well, they were just looking at themselves through a funhouse mirror. If they don't realize that (and toss the Clinton faction out on their ear and do a hard turn to port in favor of Bernie-esque polices, whether championed by Bernie himself or by some other suitable progressive, such as Elizabeth Warren), they are going to be utterly screwed for at least the next eight years.

The fact that Trump's anti-establishment message was packaged with the bigotry should have destroyed his support as a matter of principle, but it didn't and that's the disgusting part. I'm disgusted not by the complete monsters who actually agreed with Trump's bigotry -- their worthlessness was already well-established and thus could be ignored -- but by the otherwise-moral people who failed to repudiate it because they cared more about their goddamn bread and circuses.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #274 on: November 09, 2016, 02:13:00 PM »
quit trying to pretend this is about racism or sexism, and LEARN SOMETHING for once!

Like the republicans after 2012 learned they had to be more inclusive in order to expand their voter base? 

The only lesson to be learned here is that bigoted demagoguery is an efficient motivator of a bigoted electorate.  I have never been more ashamed of my countrymen.

I'm ashamed of them too.

But you're wrong: Trump didn't win because of his bigotry; he won because of his populist anti-establishment message. Democrats need to understand that! You know how for the last several elections -- including the Republican primary -- Democrats were laughing it up about how out-of-touch the establishment Republicans were? Well, they were just looking at themselves through a funhouse mirror. If they don't realize that (and toss the Clinton faction out on their ear and do a hard turn to port in favor of Bernie-esque polices, whether championed by Bernie himself or by some other suitable progressive, such as Elizabeth Warren), they are going to be utterly screwed for at least the next eight years.

The fact that Trump's anti-establishment message was packaged with the bigotry should have destroyed his support as a matter of principle, but it didn't and that's the disgusting part. I'm disgusted not by the complete monsters who actually agreed with Trump's bigotry -- their worthlessness was already well-established and thus could be ignored -- but by the otherwise-moral people who failed to repudiate it because they cared more about their goddamn bread and circuses.

We've disagreed about things in the past, but today you are speaking my mind, man.

dragoncar

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #275 on: November 09, 2016, 02:21:32 PM »
quit trying to pretend this is about racism or sexism, and LEARN SOMETHING for once!

Like the republicans after 2012 learned they had to be more inclusive in order to expand their voter base? 

The only lesson to be learned here is that bigoted demagoguery is an efficient motivator of a bigoted electorate.  I have never been more ashamed of my countrymen.

I'm ashamed of them too.

But you're wrong: Trump didn't win because of his bigotry; he won because of his populist anti-establishment message. Democrats need to understand that! You know how for the last several elections -- including the Republican primary -- Democrats were laughing it up about how out-of-touch the establishment Republicans were? Well, they were just looking at themselves through a funhouse mirror. If they don't realize that (and toss the Clinton faction out on their ear and do a hard turn to port in favor of Bernie-esque polices, whether championed by Bernie himself or by some other suitable progressive, such as Elizabeth Warren), they are going to be utterly screwed for at least the next eight years.

The fact that Trump's anti-establishment message was packaged with the bigotry should have destroyed his support as a matter of principle, but it didn't and that's the disgusting part. I'm disgusted not by the complete monsters who actually agreed with Trump's bigotry -- their worthlessness was already well-established and thus could be ignored -- but by the otherwise-moral people who failed to repudiate it because they cared more about their goddamn bread and circuses.

We've disagreed about things in the past, but today you are speaking my mind, man.

This is exactly what I've been trying to articulate whenever I talk about the election results

AlanStache

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #276 on: November 09, 2016, 02:37:48 PM »
"The fact that Trump's anti-establishment message was packaged with the bigotry should have destroyed his support as a matter of principle, but it didn't and that's the disgusting part. I'm disgusted not by the complete monsters who actually agreed with Trump's bigotry -- their worthlessness was already well-established and thus could be ignored -- but by the otherwise-moral people who failed to repudiate it because they cared more about their goddamn bread and circuses."
+1

I am still trying to form some articulable opinions about him and his supporters, but am very much enjoying the intelligent discussion.

mm1970

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #277 on: November 09, 2016, 02:47:45 PM »
If the Bernie voters crossed to Trump?  Well, you reap what you it sow the DNC reaps what it sows, man.

FTFY.

Hillary lost. It's time to stop with the delusion that anybody but the hyper-partisan Democrat cheerleaders wanted more establishment bullshit instead of Bernie.

Unless you want to fuck up 2020 too, of course...

Except I don't think Bernie could have won.

More delusion. Bernie had a better chance to win than any other liberal, in exactly the same way that Trump had a better chance than any other conservative.



Seriously, Democratic establishment people (in general, not referring specifically to people in this thread): quit trying to pretend this is about racism or sexism, and LEARN SOMETHING for once! Namely, learn that the people you actually depend on to win -- the people outside the "Democratic Party" who are usually described as "moderates" but who are actually just people who want to keep their civil rights and their money --  are sick and tired of you paying lip service to progressive ideology while actually screwing them over in the name of filthy corporatism! Hillary did not lose because of the "glass ceiling" or retaliation for Obama or whatever other lie you try to convince yourself of. Hillary lost because of her bad policies (e.g. support for the TPP), her empty rhetoric and her lack of character. Period. If you wanted to win, you should have fielded a candidate who didn't suck.

I can only speak as someone who has looked at all of the issues, and compared them to my own values.  Of everyone running, she matched my values the best. (Nobody matched them 100%)

Bernie was far too left for me.  It's very hard, however, to find a true moderate.  It's been that way for quite awhile, unfortunately.

So for the people that *I* personally know, who aren't looking to pick someone "outside the establishment", Bernie would not have worked.  I'm speaking of older Republican friends, who simply want someone experienced.

Now, apparently the percentage of "disenfranchised voters" is larger than the percentage of "hey I want someone experienced who reasonably closely matched my values".

I don't think she sucks.  I voted for her in 2008 in the primaries.  I ACTUALLY LIKE HILLARY CLINTON.

And of course the glass ceiling was part of the reason she lost.  There were many reasons people voted for Trump, and the anti-feminist "I don't want a woman President" was part of it.  Granted, I don't know what percentage - but it doesn't take much.

MDM

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #278 on: November 09, 2016, 02:48:19 PM »
Consider The press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.  Also described at Peter Thiel perfectly summed up Donald Trump in one paragraph.

In other words, there were plenty of non-bigoted, college educated men and women who (perhaps while holding their nose over his personal qualities) decided to vote for Trump in the hopes of "a saner, more sensible immigration policy" and other policy issues.

Cassie

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #279 on: November 09, 2016, 02:51:57 PM »
I really hope that Trump is a 1 term president. I find him being elected scary and I have never felt that way about a major party candidate before.   

zolotiyeruki

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #280 on: November 09, 2016, 03:03:53 PM »

The fact that Trump's anti-establishment message was packaged with the bigotry should have destroyed his support as a matter of principle, but it didn't and that's the disgusting part. I'm disgusted not by the complete monsters who actually agreed with Trump's bigotry -- their worthlessness was already well-established and thus could be ignored -- but by the otherwise-moral people who failed to repudiate it because they cared more about their goddamn bread and circuses.
As someone who is relieved but not happy with the results of the presidential election, can I insert an opinion shared by many Trump voters? (BTW, I didn't vote for Trump)

This election, for me, came down to one issue:  The Supreme Court.  Mine may not be a politically correct or popular view, but SCOTUS is supposed to do two things: 1) judge cases based on the law, and 2) judge laws based on the Constitution.  That #2 is a huge issue for me.  Over the last 80 years or so, we've seen incremental steps gradually and steadily taken to erode circumvent interpret the Constitution in the service of convenience.  If you've heard of the terms "intermediate scrutiny" or "strict scrutiny," you're probably familiar with this issue.  In short, we've reached a point where the constitution can be violated if the government can convince a judge that such an action will "further an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest." (for intermediate scrutiny)  That concept has been used to justify all sorts of things that would clearly be unconstitutional with a plain reading, from Guantanamo Bay to Gun Control to the Fairness Doctrine to Net Neutrality to Civil Asset Forfeiture.

The next president will appoint at least one Supreme Court justice (Scalia's seat), and very possibly more (Ginsburg, Kennedy, and Breyer are all over 75 years old).  And I would very much prefer to see justices who will judge based strictly on the laws and constitution, and set personal emotions and biases aside.  It is not the Supreme Court's role to rewrite laws (as they did with the Obamacare subsidies ruling), or to permit regulations just because they're a good idea.*  Unfortunately, we have several justices who don't seem to be very interested in ruling that way, and I believe Trump is more likely to nominate such justices than Clinton.

Yes, Trump is morally disgusting in many ways, and unqualified in many other ways.**  But I would expect a better outcome from him than from Clinton.

* If you don't think the Constitution meets today's needs, that's fine!  There's a way to change it, called the amendment process.  Yes, that process is hard.  It was made hard on purpose, to prevent marginal majorities from making sweeping changes.  If a change is important enough and good enough, you'll get your 75% of states to ratify it.

** That's why we have three branches of government, and a cabinet of people who can help him out.

Lagom

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #281 on: November 09, 2016, 03:12:47 PM »
Your assessment of how the Supreme Court works and which justices are pushing agendas is ridiculously partisan. Scalia was the worst activist judge of them all, and also the biggest hypocrite when it came to "strict" interpretation. I won't deny the left leaning judges also have biases, of course. You may be worried about the SCOTUS because you oppose Gay Marriage, or think Obama's still gonna come for your guns one day, or dislike immigrants. I disagree with those stances but I understand why those who hold them want a court that is sympathetic. Just stop pretending that your preference is anything but political. Both sides want a court that will forward their agenda, let's be honest here.

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #282 on: November 09, 2016, 03:21:25 PM »
Your assessment of how the Supreme Court works and which justices are pushing agendas is ridiculously partisan. Scalia was the worst activist judge of them all, and also the biggest hypocrite when it came to "strict" interpretation. I won't deny the left leaning judges also have biases, of course. You may be worried about the SCOTUS because you oppose Gay Marriage, or think Obama's still gonna come for your guns one day, or dislike immigrants. I disagree with those stances but I understand why those who hold them want a court that is sympathetic. Just stop pretending that your preference is anything but political. Both sides want a court that will forward their agenda, let's be honest here.

I'll address the bolded because it's an issue I know about, versus the other two where I'm less versed.

I don't want the court to "forward my agenda" on guns.  I want them to interpret the Constitution to mean "shall not be infringed" as written.  I'm not looking for them to FORWARD my agenda, I'm looking for them to keep others from forwarding THEIR agenda over my rights. 

It's a distinction with a difference. 

AlanStache

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #283 on: November 09, 2016, 03:24:52 PM »
Consider The press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally.  Also described at Peter Thiel perfectly summed up Donald Trump in one paragraph.

In other words, there were plenty of non-bigoted, college educated men and women who (perhaps while holding their nose over his personal qualities) decided to vote for Trump in the hopes of "a saner, more sensible immigration policy" and other policy issues.

full Thiel quote
"I think one thing that should be distinguished here is that the media is always taking Trump literally. It never takes him seriously, but it always takes him literally. ... I think a lot of voters who vote for Trump take Trump seriously but not literally, so when they hear things like the Muslim comment or the wall comment, their question is not, 'Are you going to build a wall like the Great Wall of China?' or, you know, 'How exactly are you going to enforce these tests?' What they hear is we're going to have a saner, more sensible immigration policy."

He may be right about this but the trouble with dealing with people like this is that they can say XYZ and then a week later tell you that they actually said ABC, or there surrogates can say "well you know he really meant 123".  I have known a woman like this personally and after a while it gets impossible.  Words have no meaning.  And once they establish this double talk they can stretch it so that they can say the most god awful disrespectful things and people will just blow it off and excuse it with a "well you know what he meant - it could have been said better but, after all his intended meaning was right."  I did this with the person I knew too for a time.  But NO-FUCK NO!!! You are a god damn adult, you are responsible for the words you say. 

I am not sure how conscience all this is with him or the woman I knew like this.

It will be interesting to see if and when his supporters get tired of not knowing what he means or him doing something different from what they thought he meant and them Trump saying that is what he intended all along.  Believe me this will happen. 

But I fear that a good number of people will die in the coming years because of his language (according to FB some LGBT teens already have committed suicide).

edit: spelling. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 03:36:22 PM by AlanStache »

bacchi

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #284 on: November 09, 2016, 03:25:36 PM »
Your assessment of how the Supreme Court works and which justices are pushing agendas is ridiculously partisan. Scalia was the worst activist judge of them all, and also the biggest hypocrite when it came to "strict" interpretation. I won't deny the left leaning judges also have biases, of course. You may be worried about the SCOTUS because you oppose Gay Marriage, or think Obama's still gonna come for your guns one day, or dislike immigrants. I disagree with those stances but I understand why those who hold them want a court that is sympathetic. Just stop pretending that your preference is anything but political. Both sides want a court that will forward their agenda, let's be honest here.

I'll address the bolded because it's an issue I know about, versus the other two where I'm less versed.

I don't want the court to "forward my agenda" on guns.  I want them to interpret the Constitution to mean "shall not be infringed" as written.  I'm not looking for them to FORWARD my agenda, I'm looking for them to keep others from forwarding THEIR agenda over my rights. 

It's a distinction with a difference.

Your interpretation is my activism and my interpretation is your activism.

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #285 on: November 09, 2016, 03:27:02 PM »
Your assessment of how the Supreme Court works and which justices are pushing agendas is ridiculously partisan. Scalia was the worst activist judge of them all, and also the biggest hypocrite when it came to "strict" interpretation. I won't deny the left leaning judges also have biases, of course. You may be worried about the SCOTUS because you oppose Gay Marriage, or think Obama's still gonna come for your guns one day, or dislike immigrants. I disagree with those stances but I understand why those who hold them want a court that is sympathetic. Just stop pretending that your preference is anything but political. Both sides want a court that will forward their agenda, let's be honest here.

I'll address the bolded because it's an issue I know about, versus the other two where I'm less versed.

I don't want the court to "forward my agenda" on guns.  I want them to interpret the Constitution to mean "shall not be infringed" as written.  I'm not looking for them to FORWARD my agenda, I'm looking for them to keep others from forwarding THEIR agenda over my rights. 

It's a distinction with a difference.

Your interpretation is my activism and my interpretation is your activism.

My point is, I'm not looking for action.  You are.  I don't think you can characterize looking for inaction as "forwarding an agenda".

sol

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #286 on: November 09, 2016, 03:29:14 PM »
I want them to interpret the Constitution to mean "shall not be infringed" as written. 

And I want them to interpret the amendment to apply to "a well regulated militia" as written. 

We get very different results if we each try to interpret individual phrases without their context.  Don't pretend your selected phrase is more important than mine.

bacchi

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #287 on: November 09, 2016, 03:30:25 PM »
Your assessment of how the Supreme Court works and which justices are pushing agendas is ridiculously partisan. Scalia was the worst activist judge of them all, and also the biggest hypocrite when it came to "strict" interpretation. I won't deny the left leaning judges also have biases, of course. You may be worried about the SCOTUS because you oppose Gay Marriage, or think Obama's still gonna come for your guns one day, or dislike immigrants. I disagree with those stances but I understand why those who hold them want a court that is sympathetic. Just stop pretending that your preference is anything but political. Both sides want a court that will forward their agenda, let's be honest here.

I'll address the bolded because it's an issue I know about, versus the other two where I'm less versed.

I don't want the court to "forward my agenda" on guns.  I want them to interpret the Constitution to mean "shall not be infringed" as written.  I'm not looking for them to FORWARD my agenda, I'm looking for them to keep others from forwarding THEIR agenda over my rights. 

It's a distinction with a difference.

Your interpretation is my activism and my interpretation is your activism.

My point is, I'm not looking for action.  You are.  I don't think you can characterize looking for inaction as "forwarding an agenda".

No, you're looking for action. I'm not.

There are liberal activist judges just as there as conservative activist judges. There's no holy ground here that one side gets to claim.

Lagom

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #288 on: November 09, 2016, 03:31:52 PM »

My point is, I'm not looking for action.  You are.  I don't think you can characterize looking for inaction as "forwarding an agenda".

Of course you can, if the status quo is what's unconstitutional. Plenty of historical examples to learn from on that front.

Jack

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #289 on: November 09, 2016, 03:32:12 PM »

The fact that Trump's anti-establishment message was packaged with the bigotry should have destroyed his support as a matter of principle, but it didn't and that's the disgusting part. I'm disgusted not by the complete monsters who actually agreed with Trump's bigotry -- their worthlessness was already well-established and thus could be ignored -- but by the otherwise-moral people who failed to repudiate it because they cared more about their goddamn bread and circuses.
As someone who is relieved but not happy with the results of the presidential election, can I insert an opinion shared by many Trump voters? (BTW, I didn't vote for Trump)

This election, for me, came down to one issue:  The Supreme Court.  Mine may not be a politically correct or popular view, but SCOTUS is supposed to do two things: 1) judge cases based on the law, and 2) judge laws based on the Constitution.  That #2 is a huge issue for me.  Over the last 80 years or so, we've seen incremental steps gradually and steadily taken to erode circumvent interpret the Constitution in the service of convenience.  If you've heard of the terms "intermediate scrutiny" or "strict scrutiny," you're probably familiar with this issue.  In short, we've reached a point where the constitution can be violated if the government can convince a judge that such an action will "further an important government interest by means that are substantially related to that interest." (for intermediate scrutiny)  That concept has been used to justify all sorts of things that would clearly be unconstitutional with a plain reading, from Guantanamo Bay to Gun Control to the Fairness Doctrine to Net Neutrality to Civil Asset Forfeiture.

The next president will appoint at least one Supreme Court justice (Scalia's seat), and very possibly more (Ginsburg, Kennedy, and Breyer are all over 75 years old).  And I would very much prefer to see justices who will judge based strictly on the laws and constitution, and set personal emotions and biases aside.  It is not the Supreme Court's role to rewrite laws (as they did with the Obamacare subsidies ruling), or to permit regulations just because they're a good idea.*  Unfortunately, we have several justices who don't seem to be very interested in ruling that way, and I believe Trump is more likely to nominate such justices than Clinton.

Yes, Trump is morally disgusting in many ways, and unqualified in many other ways.**  But I would expect a better outcome from him than from Clinton.

* If you don't think the Constitution meets today's needs, that's fine!  There's a way to change it, called the amendment process.  Yes, that process is hard.  It was made hard on purpose, to prevent marginal majorities from making sweeping changes.  If a change is important enough and good enough, you'll get your 75% of states to ratify it.

** That's why we have three branches of government, and a cabinet of people who can help him out.

I agree with all of that except for the notion that a Trump Supreme Court nominee would some how be less of a disaster for strict construction than a Clinton nominee would.



By the way, the Fairness Doctrine and Net Neutrality are not unconstitutional: free speech and free association are rights, but incorporation into a business entity (i.e., anything other than a sole proprietorship or full-liability partnership) is not. Therefore, regulation of corporations for the public interest -- which they agreed to by virtue of the fact that their members chose to incorporate rather than remain a full-liability partnership -- is perfectly constitutional and Citizen's United was simply an incorrect decision.

In fact, the only reason the concept of incorporation exists in the first place was for groups to get privileged treatment in exchange for being required to act in the public interest. Our modern corporatist shithead overlords fail to appreciate that fact.



god-offal

God-offal? That's an... interesting choice of imagery, to say the least!

dragoncar

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #290 on: November 09, 2016, 03:33:48 PM »
Your assessment of how the Supreme Court works and which justices are pushing agendas is ridiculously partisan. Scalia was the worst activist judge of them all, and also the biggest hypocrite when it came to "strict" interpretation. I won't deny the left leaning judges also have biases, of course. You may be worried about the SCOTUS because you oppose Gay Marriage, or think Obama's still gonna come for your guns one day, or dislike immigrants. I disagree with those stances but I understand why those who hold them want a court that is sympathetic. Just stop pretending that your preference is anything but political. Both sides want a court that will forward their agenda, let's be honest here.

This.  More importantly, if you think you can "judge laws based on the Constitution" in a clear-cut manner without interpreting it, you haven't read the Constitution.  Or do you really believe that fraud should be allowed because "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech."  Period.

chesebert

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #291 on: November 09, 2016, 03:41:02 PM »
No doubt we are interpreting, given how "is" may be interpreted differently depending on the context...

For folks too young to remember:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #292 on: November 09, 2016, 03:43:12 PM »
I want them to interpret the Constitution to mean "shall not be infringed" as written. 

And I want them to interpret the amendment to apply to "a well regulated militia" as written. 

We get very different results if we each try to interpret individual phrases without their context.  Don't pretend your selected phrase is more important than mine.

Your phrase is important, it just doesn't mean what you think it does.

BDWW

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #293 on: November 09, 2016, 04:16:09 PM »
I want them to interpret the Constitution to mean "shall not be infringed" as written. 

And I want them to interpret the amendment to apply to "a well regulated militia" as written. 

We get very different results if we each try to interpret individual phrases without their context.  Don't pretend your selected phrase is more important than mine.

Your phrase is important, it just doesn't mean what you think it does.

Sure it does; If I just ignore mountains of historical documentation, synchronistic vernacular, and insert it in my myopic contemporary parlance, it means my state national guard right?

sol

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #294 on: November 09, 2016, 04:17:41 PM »
it just doesn't mean what you think it does.

Neither does yours.  Unless you believe US citizens who are convicted terrorists should be allowed to privately own nuclear weapons, "shall not be infringed" clearly means "shall be infringed in some cases and not in others".

Chris22

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #295 on: November 09, 2016, 04:29:28 PM »
it just doesn't mean what you think it does.

Neither does yours.  Unless you believe US citizens who are convicted terrorists should be allowed to privately own nuclear weapons, "shall not be infringed" clearly means "shall be infringed in some cases and not in others".

Oh come on. 

First of all, we have a method, outlined in the Constitution in other amendments, by which we can deprive people of their rights, using a court of law, jury of their peers, etc. 

Second, just knock it off with the nukes thing, you've been slapped around on that one quite enough.

vern

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #296 on: November 09, 2016, 04:32:53 PM »
The Hillary people filed out of that building like Thulsa Dooms followers.


sol

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #297 on: November 09, 2016, 04:51:01 PM »
just knock it off with the nukes thing, you've been slapped around on that one quite enough.

I must have missed that post.  Can you please summarize for me why we are allowed to restrict some arms and not others, for some people and not others?  Those all seem like "interpretations" of the 2nd Amendment, to me.

Our you could just link to it, if there is a previous forum post addressing this issue.

Jack

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #298 on: November 09, 2016, 05:02:37 PM »
Can you please summarize for me why we are allowed to restrict some arms and not others, for some people and not others?

We're not. Go find my previous post explaining it yourself.

Are you done now?

hdatontodo

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Re: The Election Results Thread
« Reply #299 on: November 09, 2016, 05:06:43 PM »

This election, for me, came down to one issue:  The Supreme Court. ...If you've heard of the terms "intermediate scrutiny" or "strict scrutiny," you're probably familiar with this issue.

Amen. If the government is enacting laws, it needs to narrowly craft them to accomplish the goals with a minimum of restriction of rights. There should not be a rationing of the rights.

Motorcycles speeding down I-95 should not result in all speed limits changed to 40. Targeting criminals but not actually reducing their activities while burdening many honest people is not narrow tailoring.

Overly broad restriction of rights "because the government has the general goal of crime reduction" is improper. Maryland has a law that you can pick up a firearm X days after you pay and get your background check (if you've jumped through many other prereq. hoops.) Many purchasers have another firearm. If you have other firearms, a "cooling off period" is useless on the next one. This is not narrowly tailored, and I believe was overturned in another state. MD has another law about 30 days between purchases unless you are a designated collector, so that factors into the timeline too.

Maryland doesn't let you conceal a non-folding knife. However you can carry a foot long folding knife because court proceedings have labeled it a pen knife. Baltimore City doesn't allow spring-assisted knives, where you flick it open with your thumb and a spring helps complete the opening. This was what got Freddy Gray in trouble. (Although the prosecutor said on TV he "had a knife legal in the state of MD" -- uh, but not in her city.)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 05:14:53 PM by hdatontodo »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!