Author Topic: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.  (Read 52665 times)

wenchsenior

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2017, 01:20:09 PM »
As to the spouse and family members being so, shall we say passionate, to keep the wanderer from completely leaving the faith, I get that.  They truly believe it's not just their life on the line, but their eternity, and most spouses believe the eternity of their children, grandchildren, and generation upon generation is literally at stake.  The family members usually believe they are saving the person's life and spirit, like holding them back from running into a burning building.

Doesn't make them right, but that's where they're usually coming from.  Not an evil, controlling thing, although there are some like that, I'm sure.

Yes, I often have thought that, for believers such as these (not sure if the correct term is fundamentalist, literalist, etc), the misery of loved ones falling away from the faith must be excruciating and terrifying.  I keep thinking it would be like knowing your child was about to contract an incurable terminal illness that causes suffering but never ends in the relief of death.  It is a sobering thing to consider and I feel a lot of compassion for people in this position, even though it totally baffles me.  And of course the 'drifters' in the OP's position would feel guilty that they are 'inflicting' this pain on the believers.  And then there is the potential distress of 'drifting away' but not quite being able to take the final mental leap to the point where fear of being wrong about salvation, meaningful existence, being rejected by god, etc., would no longer weigh on you.

A less emotionally complex analogy would be to all the reporting coming out of KY in the aftermath of the election, where many of the people who voted Republican are dependent on the newly expanded Medicaid coverage of Obamacare.  Reporting showed that while most of these people did in fact understand that they were using Obamacare, and wanted to keep it, and understood that the GOP had every intention of trying to repeal it, they voted GOP anyway. So it wasn't pure ignorance that caused many of them to cast that vote.  This seems astounding, until you consider that there remain a whole bunch of reasons for any one of those people to vote for the party that is hell bent on removing their health care benefits.  And most of those relate to social and cultural context.  If your entire upbringing is in the context of a politically and socially conservative culture, and your social circle adheres to those beliefs and mostly votes for the GOP in lockstep, and your entire state is locked down Red so your vote will never swing the election to the Dems anyway, AND you would have to lie about such a useless vote forever or risk constant friction with your social circle....well, then all those Kentucky ACA users who 'voted against their self interest' don't look so crazy.


caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2017, 01:20:49 PM »
This is a fascinating and moving discussion.  I cannot comment on particulars of religious belief and how it affects relationships, because I have no such experience.

Just wanted to point out that while caracarn likely has many well-reasoned points to make about religious particulars that I know nothing about, his/her second paragraph appears to be almost entirely built around fallacious arguments against strawmen, which indicates a serious misunderstanding of scientific claims and the scientific method. Not to mention the conflation of use of the scientific method and atheism, which might overlap but are not, of course, the same thing.

Such misunderstandings probably end up having little bearing on the OP's broader question, though, which seems to have more to do with how much each individual needs to feel faith in (a) personal god(s), how literal and evidence-based they feel this faith must be for them to maintain it, and how much cultural conditioning and social ties influences each person's desire for such faith.

It is a very interesting topic, and possibly not that far removed from social and cultural anxieties created by acceptance/rejection of other tribal 'identifiers'...the recent activity on https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/moral-outrage-and-the-stigmatization-of-voluntarily-childfree-women-and-men/ being a good example.


As a slightly tangential question, have I been incorrect in my understanding that Catholicism accepts the findings of modern biological and cosmological science as compatible with the faith?  I have long been under the impression that it did.

Wench, I agree a lot of what I posted was not specific to answering the question, rather than engaging in the debate of god/not god and just encouraging OP to do perhaps look at some resources that would address issues they raised.  The poster used a lot of language indicating they are still on the fence about this and as a fellow believer I'm just trying to help the understand.

Not sure if your "second" paragraph is what I am reading as my second paragraph.  I'm just asking because I work in the scientific community and therefore would be surprised to find I am misunderstanding science and the scientific method as it would be tough to do my job without it.

Yes, it was your second paragraph I was referring to. And I am aware that you work in the scientific community.

OK, I guess since that piece was off topic of the OP if you want point out what part seemed like I misunderstood science.  I only mentioned examples of complexity of starting life.  The rest of that paragraph was descriptive of how both views are just as faith based.

bender

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2017, 01:28:00 PM »
The whole idea of hell and being punished in the afterlife is simply ludicrous to me.  Everyone gets into heaven (ie, gets to be with god).  Period.  So there's no judgement and it doesn't matter if you follow any particular religion or not. 

I call this religion tyort1ism and I'm accepting new members now. 

PS, I'm joking about the religion, but I'm not joking about these beliefs.  They are kind of awesome actually, and allow you to let go of a whole mess of problems that all other religions present.

Yes having no accountability for ones behavior does make things very easy, I would agree.

Caracarn - we are accountable to society in the here and now.  That's usually a much bigger motivator for good behavior.  Not many atheists in prison.



The actual numbers aren't that important and I'm sure there's lots of flaws with the reporting.  I just wanted to counter your incorrect statement about atheists having no accountability for their behavior.  That makes no sense at all.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 01:37:07 PM by bender »

tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2017, 01:44:46 PM »
The whole idea of hell and being punished in the afterlife is simply ludicrous to me.  Everyone gets into heaven (ie, gets to be with god).  Period.  So there's no judgement and it doesn't matter if you follow any particular religion or not. 

I call this religion tyort1ism and I'm accepting new members now. 

PS, I'm joking about the religion, but I'm not joking about these beliefs.  They are kind of awesome actually, and allow you to let go of a whole mess of problems that all other religions present.

Yes having no accountability for ones behavior does make things very easy, I would agree.

The very idea of "accountability" with god is exactly the problem.  Get rid of it. God loves you.  Me.  Everyone.  Without exception and without judgement.  We all get to hang with the big guy when we die.  The end.
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bender

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2017, 01:45:48 PM »

OK, I guess since that piece was off topic of the OP if you want point out what part seemed like I misunderstood science.  I only mentioned examples of complexity of starting life.  The rest of that paragraph was descriptive of how both views are just as faith based.

I agree discovering the origin of life would be one of the greatest discoveries of mankind.  There are scientists in a lab somewhere mixing chemicals together trying to create life out of nothing.  Probably they are atheist.  One problem I have with some religions is that they offer faith based explanations to some of the greatest unknowns and historically have discouraged science.

Same goes for finding alien life and the origin of the universe itself.  If you have the answers already, why bother looking?

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2017, 01:55:31 PM »
The whole idea of hell and being punished in the afterlife is simply ludicrous to me.  Everyone gets into heaven (ie, gets to be with god).  Period.  So there's no judgement and it doesn't matter if you follow any particular religion or not. 

I call this religion tyort1ism and I'm accepting new members now. 

PS, I'm joking about the religion, but I'm not joking about these beliefs.  They are kind of awesome actually, and allow you to let go of a whole mess of problems that all other religions present.

Yes having no accountability for ones behavior does make things very easy, I would agree.

The very idea of "accountability" with god is exactly the problem.  Get rid of it. God loves you.  Me.  Everyone.  Without exception and without judgement.  We all get to hang with the big guy when we die.  The end.

I'm not sure if you are trying to really discuss or not.  I'll assume you are.

You do not get to decide to get rid of it.  It's not yours to decide.  It's God's and he did.  Book of Romans is entirely about that.  God provides evidence visible to everyone that he exists and he so no one is without excuse.  If you choose not the believe than that blocks your ability to hang with the big guy because no one gets to him except through the little guy.

tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2017, 02:01:42 PM »
The whole idea of hell and being punished in the afterlife is simply ludicrous to me.  Everyone gets into heaven (ie, gets to be with god).  Period.  So there's no judgement and it doesn't matter if you follow any particular religion or not. 

I call this religion tyort1ism and I'm accepting new members now. 

PS, I'm joking about the religion, but I'm not joking about these beliefs.  They are kind of awesome actually, and allow you to let go of a whole mess of problems that all other religions present.

Yes having no accountability for ones behavior does make things very easy, I would agree.

The very idea of "accountability" with god is exactly the problem.  Get rid of it. God loves you.  Me.  Everyone.  Without exception and without judgement.  We all get to hang with the big guy when we die.  The end.

I'm not sure if you are trying to really discuss or not.  I'll assume you are.

You do not get to decide to get rid of it.  It's not yours to decide.  It's God's and he did.  Book of Romans is entirely about that.  God provides evidence visible to everyone that he exists and he so no one is without excuse.  If you choose not the believe than that blocks your ability to hang with the big guy because no one gets to him except through the little guy.

I am serious.  Also, I'm not a christian.  So referencing the bible does zero. 

Also, I should point out that I merely posted my beliefs originally.  You are the one that came in and made disparaging remarks, to which I have replied.  Why did you feel the need to attack my beliefs?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 02:03:55 PM by tyort1 »
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caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2017, 02:03:18 PM »

OK, I guess since that piece was off topic of the OP if you want point out what part seemed like I misunderstood science.  I only mentioned examples of complexity of starting life.  The rest of that paragraph was descriptive of how both views are just as faith based.

I agree discovering the origin of life would be one of the greatest discoveries of mankind.  There are scientists in a lab somewhere mixing chemicals together trying to create life out of nothing.  Probably they are atheist.  One problem I have with some religions is that they offer faith based explanations to some of the greatest unknowns and historically have discouraged science.

Same goes for finding alien life and the origin of the universe itself.  If you have the answers already, why bother looking?

Because God gave us free will and some people want to look.  I learned this as a parent.  Most of the things my kids want to know about the rules of the house I have the answers for and so do they, but they insist on looking for something to prove it's wrong.  Does not mean that the answers are not there. 

Honestly we are not in disagreement on these points, just the motivation for them.  Religions (let's focus on RC for example) certainly have discouraged science.  After all if you could not make the rules through your religious institutes and hold the power and instead admitted and everyone is accountable to God and not the Pope then how does the Pope have any power?  How would you get the Crusades to go get all  the gold for God, if you could not convince people the someone was lesser by discounting science that showed they are not?  Religion is different than God.  For salvation I am required to accept Jesus as my savior.  It's that simple.  I am not required to follow any religous rules created above that.  That is the whole point of the gospels and the New Testament.  It's got nothing to do with works, it's all grace and faith.  Therefore nothing science discovers has any relevance to that point and so therefore if I get that I have no reason to discourage science.  The only reason misguided religious leaders did that was for their own sinful benefit.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2017, 02:06:00 PM »
The whole idea of hell and being punished in the afterlife is simply ludicrous to me.  Everyone gets into heaven (ie, gets to be with god).  Period.  So there's no judgement and it doesn't matter if you follow any particular religion or not. 

I call this religion tyort1ism and I'm accepting new members now. 

PS, I'm joking about the religion, but I'm not joking about these beliefs.  They are kind of awesome actually, and allow you to let go of a whole mess of problems that all other religions present.

Yes having no accountability for ones behavior does make things very easy, I would agree.

The very idea of "accountability" with god is exactly the problem.  Get rid of it. God loves you.  Me.  Everyone.  Without exception and without judgement.  We all get to hang with the big guy when we die.  The end.

I'm not sure if you are trying to really discuss or not.  I'll assume you are.

You do not get to decide to get rid of it.  It's not yours to decide.  It's God's and he did.  Book of Romans is entirely about that.  God provides evidence visible to everyone that he exists and he so no one is without excuse.  If you choose not the believe than that blocks your ability to hang with the big guy because no one gets to him except through the little guy.

I am serious.  Also, I'm not a christian.  So referencing the bible does zero. 

Also, I should point out that I merely posted my beliefs originally.  You are the one that came in and made disparaging remarks, to which I have replied.  Why did you feel the need to attack my beliefs?

That's all good.

Point is still the same.

One of us is right and one is wrong.  In either case you do not posses the power to get rid of it.  In the case there is a God, he makes you accountable, whether you believe that or not, and you'll find that out when you find that out.  In the base there is not a God, then there is no creator to be accountable to, so getting rid of it is moot because it never existed.   In either case it's not up to you.

tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2017, 02:09:34 PM »
I am serious.  Also, I'm not a christian.  So referencing the bible does zero. 

Also, I should point out that I merely posted my beliefs originally.  You are the one that came in and made disparaging remarks, to which I have replied.  Why did you feel the need to attack my beliefs?

That's all good.

Point is still the same.

One of us is right and one is wrong.  In either case you do not posses the power to get rid of it.  In the case there is a God, he makes you accountable, whether you believe that or not, and you'll find that out when you find that out.  In the base there is not a God, then there is no creator to be accountable to, so getting rid of it is moot because it never existed.   In either case it's not up to you.
[/quote]

You are saying if there's a god then there's accountability.  And if there's no god there's no accountability.  I say there's a god AND there's no accountability. 

These are my beliefs.  Why are my beliefs any less valid than yours?
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caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2017, 02:09:47 PM »
@bender - I'm talking about accountability to God, not to human laws.  The poster I replied to was hell and the afterlife and if there is judgement about getting into heaven. Prision stats have nothing directly to do with that type of accountability.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2017, 02:10:52 PM »
I am serious.  Also, I'm not a christian.  So referencing the bible does zero. 

Also, I should point out that I merely posted my beliefs originally.  You are the one that came in and made disparaging remarks, to which I have replied.  Why did you feel the need to attack my beliefs?

That's all good.

Point is still the same.

One of us is right and one is wrong.  In either case you do not posses the power to get rid of it.  In the case there is a God, he makes you accountable, whether you believe that or not, and you'll find that out when you find that out.  In the base there is not a God, then there is no creator to be accountable to, so getting rid of it is moot because it never existed.   In either case it's not up to you.

You are saying if there's a god then there's accountability.  And if there's no god there's no accountability.  I say there's a god AND there's no accountability. 

These are my beliefs.  Why are my beliefs any less valid than yours?
[/quote]

They are not.  You said "Get rid of it" in bold, as if it was up to us.

bender

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2017, 02:12:56 PM »
Good discussion Caracarn.  I have a serious question that you may be able to answer. 

What do you believe happens to atheists when they die?  I have trouble with some irrational family members on this topic and it would be helpful to get an answer from a logical Christian.

Assume twin brothers Peter and Paul are born, raised Christian and lead virtually identical, wholesome and good lives.  They go to church and believe in God.  In old age, one brother becomes an complete atheist, rejecting all religion.  The other brother stays true to his religion.  Both brothers die the next day. 

What happens to each of them after death?


tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2017, 02:23:42 PM »
I am serious.  Also, I'm not a christian.  So referencing the bible does zero. 

That's all good.

Point is still the same.

One of us is right and one is wrong.  In either case you do not posses the power to get rid of it.  In the case there is a God, he makes you accountable, whether you believe that or not, and you'll find that out when you find that out.  In the base there is not a God, then there is no creator to be accountable to, so getting rid of it is moot because it never existed.   In either case it's not up to you.

You are saying if there's a god then there's accountability.  And if there's no god there's no accountability.  I say there's a god AND there's no accountability. 

These are my beliefs.  Why are my beliefs any less valid than yours?

They are not.  You said "Get rid of it" in bold, as if it was up to us.

Well, if you are a Christian, obviously you can't.  Which is why I'm not a Christian.  I'm a tyort1ian.  Except in real life I use my real name.

As a former Christian I can say that the whole "believe or else" belief is one of the things that drove me away to becoming an atheist.  It left such a bad taste in my mouth, that I stayed an atheist for a few decades before coming up with tyort1ism.

Since you accept the bible at truth, then obviously you must abide by it. 

I am curious though about one thing.  How did you settle on the bible as the truth, originally?  Why not the Bhagavad Gita?  Or the Koran?  Or any other religious text? 

Its actually a very serious question for me.  If I ever come back to organized religion, I want it to be the right one.  But they all claim to be the correct!  How does one choose among them?
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scantee

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2017, 02:26:25 PM »
Well this is an interesting discussion! I am an atheist, raised by a lapsed Catholic and a lazy Lutheran. I did go through Lutheran confirmation, but never believed even as a young child. My objections are similar to the ones you list, but even more trenchant than that, I simply don't find the idea of heaven or some eternal hereafter particularly compelling. I really have no interest in "going to heaven" (or equivalent) so organizing my life around a framework where that is the ultimate goal is meaningless to me.

I am not an lazy or incurious atheist. Creating a purpose to life without god or religion is a on-going concern of mine and I have struggled with how to shape a meaningful life that is both respectful of human capabilities while also recognizing our limitations as simply a sentient animal species. Part of that process has been to learn more about other religions and what common sense lessons can be gleaned from those to create a value structure that is flexible enough to adapt to our changing world. Buddhism, of all of these, has been most comforting and useful for me, although I would not go as far as to say I am a Buddhist.

This will be probably be a process for you. Even if you definitively decide that you are agnostic or atheist, your sense of how those factor into day-to-day life and your more existential identity will probably change and evolve over time. With that in mind, I don't think you need to rush to tell your family. Keep exploring what you think, maybe learn more about other religions, spend some time as a non-believer (if only in your head) and I think eventually you'll know the right time to tell your family.

MrDelane

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2017, 02:41:28 PM »
The "so what?" is that the poster indicates that because there is "zero credible evidence" for god.  I posit there is zero credible evidence for magic life formation and evolution.  It is a common argument for people who want to mock my belief in God that I believe in fairy tales, while at that same time the entire basis for saying it can't be true is because they can't prove it and they base the proof of the non-creationist viewpoint on "we just have not figured it out yet".

You say that as if abiogenesis and evolution are somehow a contrary claim to the existence of God.
If abiogenesis were proven or disproven it would still do nothing in regards to proving the validity or invalidity of a God claim, and vice versa.
They are separate claims that should be treated as such.

I would reiterate what I said earlier -
The time to accept a belief is when the evidence warrants it.
Until that point, 'we don't know yet' is not only a perfectly valid position - it is the only justified one.

Cwadda

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #66 on: May 24, 2017, 02:54:54 PM »
J Boogie, a good person to talk to is I.P. Daley. He's on the forums around here. This guy knows his stuff, maybe more so than priests.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2017, 03:06:31 PM »
Good discussion Caracarn.  I have a serious question that you may be able to answer. 

What do you believe happens to atheists when they die?  I have trouble with some irrational family members on this topic and it would be helpful to get an answer from a logical Christian.

Assume twin brothers Peter and Paul are born, raised Christian and lead virtually identical, wholesome and good lives.  They go to church and believe in God.  In old age, one brother becomes an complete atheist, rejecting all religion.  The other brother stays true to his religion.  Both brothers die the next day. 

What happens to each of them after death?

So the generally basis of "what determine what happens" is John 14:6 where Jesus says "no one can come to the Father except through me".  The challenge to your question goes to the difference I have been talking about and perhaps your wording was not intentional, but you have a paradox here because you say one is an atheist which is commonly assumed to mean "one who disbelives the existence of God or any gods" but you seem to imply that the one brother became and atheist by "rejecting all religion".  Religion has nothing to do with whether you meet the terms God set in John 14:6.  You can reject all religion and believe in Jesus and be saved.  You either believe Jesus was God or you do not.  C.S. Lewis explained away the "Jesus was a good teacher" fallacy in his book Mere Christianity with "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher; he'd either be a lunatic -- on a level with a man who says he's a poached egg -- or else he'd be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.  You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Now on to the next point, after death believers and unbelievers have a different fate, but there are simply two classes of people, the saved and the lost, and our fate is determined before we die here on Earth.    I am assuming that the atheist was really meant to be an unbeliever in your question, taking the religion confusion out of it.  Also works has nothing to do with it, so the life they led, frankly does not matter.  Their wholesome and good lives have no bearing on what happens after death.  Some interpretations feel there is a "second chance" after death but I have never found any Biblical proof of that.  Luke 16:19-31 explains this clearly that the choice is on earth, and will also be relevant later to address your question. 

In both cases the immediate results are the same.  Our souls are separated from our bodies and the bodies go into the ground.  We also both have eternal life. 

For a believer their soul is immediately in the presence of Christ, but not within any body.  This is the source of some of the believe that there is some "sleep" state in between, but that is because your body is asleep awaiting resurrection in the end times, but your soul is immediately in paradise with Jesus.  Luke 23:43 tells the thief "TODAY you will be with me in paradise" is one passage that teaches this.  2 Corinthians 5:8 is another passage used for this immediacy.  This paradise is what we have come to know as "heaven" but it is not the final destination.  Revelation covers the next steps when we receive glorified bodies upon Christ's return and then there is the creation of the new heaven and the new earth and they exist for eternity on the new earth.  Revelation 21-22 talk about this. 

For the unbeliever,as I said soul and body are separated.  Then you visit Luke 16:19-31 again to explain what we would term "hell", but again this is not the final destination.  Again at Christ's Second Coming all unbelievers are raised as shown in Revelation 20:11-15  to experience the second death, as the Great White Throne judgement.  Here is talks about being pulled out of Hades/hell begin judged and then being cast into their eternal resting place the lake of fire where they will suffer forever.  So for the unbeliever torment is constant in two different locations. 

Now I have no idea if my answer is any different than your "irrational family members", but this has been what I have learned through years of study and multiple sources. 

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2017, 03:12:20 PM »
The "so what?" is that the poster indicates that because there is "zero credible evidence" for god.  I posit there is zero credible evidence for magic life formation and evolution.  It is a common argument for people who want to mock my belief in God that I believe in fairy tales, while at that same time the entire basis for saying it can't be true is because they can't prove it and they base the proof of the non-creationist viewpoint on "we just have not figured it out yet".

You say that as if abiogenesis and evolution are somehow a contrary claim to the existence of God.
If abiogenesis were proven or disproven it would still do nothing in regards to proving the validity or invalidity of a God claim, and vice versa.
They are separate claims that should be treated as such.

I would reiterate what I said earlier -
The time to accept a belief is when the evidence warrants it.
Until that point, 'we don't know yet' is not only a perfectly valid position - it is the only justified one.

Proven abiogenesis would absolutely be a contrary claim to the existence of God because it would invalidate what is the Word of God in the Bible and show the claims to be false.  A believers stance is that we know because we are told what happened and that life did not come from non-life.  Abiogenesis tries to show how non-living matter turns into living matter, which is the exact opposite and therefore contrary.

We're not going to convince each other.  In my view it is valid to not know.  It is not the only justified position.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2017, 03:20:24 PM »
I am serious.  Also, I'm not a christian.  So referencing the bible does zero. 

That's all good.

Point is still the same.

One of us is right and one is wrong.  In either case you do not posses the power to get rid of it.  In the case there is a God, he makes you accountable, whether you believe that or not, and you'll find that out when you find that out.  In the base there is not a God, then there is no creator to be accountable to, so getting rid of it is moot because it never existed.   In either case it's not up to you.

You are saying if there's a god then there's accountability.  And if there's no god there's no accountability.  I say there's a god AND there's no accountability. 

These are my beliefs.  Why are my beliefs any less valid than yours?

They are not.  You said "Get rid of it" in bold, as if it was up to us.

Well, if you are a Christian, obviously you can't.  Which is why I'm not a Christian.  I'm a tyort1ian.  Except in real life I use my real name.

As a former Christian I can say that the whole "believe or else" belief is one of the things that drove me away to becoming an atheist.  It left such a bad taste in my mouth, that I stayed an atheist for a few decades before coming up with tyort1ism.

Since you accept the bible at truth, then obviously you must abide by it. 

I am curious though about one thing.  How did you settle on the bible as the truth, originally?  Why not the Bhagavad Gita?  Or the Koran?  Or any other religious text? 

Its actually a very serious question for me.  If I ever come back to organized religion, I want it to be the right one.  But they all claim to be the correct!  How does one choose among them?

I can't say I settled on the Bible originally in any way other than I was raised Catholic so it was the logical starting point.  As I stepped away from Catholicism I did search for what I believed and found the most compelling research done on the validity of the Bible over any other religious text.  In short it is the only text that has verifiable original beginning very near the claimed deity and and has stayed unchanged over that time.  Many argue against this, but I'd encourage anyone who really is interested to spend time researching it with multiple sources.  Again, many well respected atheists acknowledge the consistency and historical record for the Bible and therefore do not challenge Christianity based on that.  It's not a viable challenge and they readily admit that after much effort to prove otherwise.

A great recent source for this is the second book I provided that goes through the details of what we definitively know and can prove about the only two religious texts that had any opportunity to be considered definitive, the Qu'ran and the Bible.  Allah or Jesus? No God but one by Nabeel Quareshi does a great job of walking you through this.  If you want a solid answer to the right one, this would be a start for you. 


Vindicated

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2017, 03:26:03 PM »
This is super interesting, so I'm PTF.

I must start by saying I don't know much about religion, so forgive any of my ignorance.  It wasn't a big part of life growing up, even though my parents were culturally Catholic.  They didn't attend church though.  Even though I'm an atheist, I'm extremely impressed with Caracarn's bible knowledge.  It makes me curious to read it, but I have so many other books on my list.  Also, if I read the bible, I'd be (self) obligated to read other religious texts for a fair comparison.

Cara, I'm asking these questions purely out of curiosity, and mean no negative judgement to any previous posts.

Do you believe everything that is in the bible is true?  Also, what version of the bible?

You mentioned that you must accept Jesus to get into Heaven.  What happened to people who lived and died before Jesus was born?

Do you believe god is Omni-Benevolent?  If so, how do you justify an Omni-Benevolent being condemning "good" souls, just because they weren't raised a certain way?

Where do you believe God came from?  If he's always been here, does that mean infinite time?  Before the big bang?  Did he cause the big bang?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions!
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J Boogie

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2017, 03:47:50 PM »
C.S. Lewis explained away the "Jesus was a good teacher" fallacy in his book Mere Christianity with "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher; he'd either be a lunatic -- on a level with a man who says he's a poached egg -- or else he'd be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.  You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

I'll comment more on other stuff as I'm able, but wanted to address this now.

CS Lewis is undeniably brilliant as both an apologist and author, but this classic argument of his does not hold water for a two reasons.

A - Jesus might not have actually intended his audience to understand that he was the Son of God.  He always used the phrase Son of Man.  As I've shown in my original post, the gospel writers have shown they are willing to make things up to fit their agenda (making up Bethlehem as Jesus' birthplace), so it's possible that they made up his claims to divinity.  It's quite possible Jesus merely claimed to be the messiah in the tradition of David, which does NOT include divinity - and followers assigned divinity after his death because clearly a dead messiah under Roman rule is no messiah at all, but God himself (or his son) could be the ultimate messiah.

B - Maybe Jesus did claim to be the son of God.  Maybe he was a little crazy.  Is there no room for nuance, that someone who is a little crazy cannot also dispense wisdom? Think of all the eccentric geniuses out there. 


I chalk the popularity of this CS Lewis "Liar, Lord, or Lunatic" argument up to the fact that it sounds pretty authoritative on its face, and Lewis was brilliant.  But I find it too reductionist and oversimplified. 

Edited because I messed up the quote box earlier.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 08:45:49 AM by J Boogie »

libertarian4321

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2017, 03:49:30 PM »
you have to say "we don;t know that yet" a lot more with a non-god view then you need to with a god view.

So what?  I don't quite understand why 'we don't know yet' is seen as a problem.
Essentially what you're saying is that if we assume we know something (i.e. God) then we have to say 'we don't know yet' less often than if we do not assume we know that thing.  Imagine that.

The time to accept a belief is when the evidence warrants it.
Until that point, 'we don't know yet' is not only a perfectly valid position - it is the only justified one.

Exactly.

That is what science and reason are all about.

Better to say "I don't know yet" and work on finding the truth, than make up a fairy tale to explain the unknown.

We know so much more now than we did 2,000 years ago.  We can now rationally explain many of the mysteries of life that stymied folks back then.  Things that were once considered miraculous or signs of the power of God are now easily explained by science as natural phenomena. 

The fact that science does not yet have all the answers today is not a good reason to support a belief in fairy tales created hundreds or thousands of years ago by primitive men.

I "lost my religion" long ago at a young age.  Luckily for me, most of my family were RINOs- Religious in Name Only- meaning they played at being religious only because that is what society expected of them- but few of them were true believers.  I did not have to face the kind of resistance and pressure to conform that someone from a heavily religious family will likely have to face.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2017, 05:30:16 PM »
you have to say "we don;t know that yet" a lot more with a non-god view then you need to with a god view.

So what?  I don't quite understand why 'we don't know yet' is seen as a problem.
Essentially what you're saying is that if we assume we know something (i.e. God) then we have to say 'we don't know yet' less often than if we do not assume we know that thing.  Imagine that.

The time to accept a belief is when the evidence warrants it.
Until that point, 'we don't know yet' is not only a perfectly valid position - it is the only justified one.

Exactly.

That is what science and reason are all about.

Better to say "I don't know yet" and work on finding the truth, than make up a fairy tale to explain the unknown.

We know so much more now than we did 2,000 years ago.  We can now rationally explain many of the mysteries of life that stymied folks back then.  Things that were once considered miraculous or signs of the power of God are now easily explained by science as natural phenomena. 

The fact that science does not yet have all the answers today is not a good reason to support a belief in fairy tales created hundreds or thousands of years ago by primitive men.

I "lost my religion" long ago at a young age.  Luckily for me, most of my family were RINOs- Religious in Name Only- meaning they played at being religious only because that is what society expected of them- but few of them were true believers.  I did not have to face the kind of resistance and pressure to conform that someone from a heavily religious family will likely have to face.

My only comment that may have relevance here is to separate what "religion" created and science later explained, and if there is anything Biblical that was considered a sign of God IN THE BIBLE and was now explained has not debunked anything.  Welcome to hear how you feel otherwise.  Ultimately it is for each one to make up their mind and it is between you and God, so delve into it or do not, but the two sources I mentioned get into a bit of this (especially the Quereshi book) and how the Bible just continues to show and align with science, which just adds to its authenticity as compared to the Qu'ran which lists several things as you mentioned as God explaining to Mohamed what how the world works and then being then proven false by science.  I do not have a copy of the book handy to reference so I do not want to cite something incorrectly, but for example there are things about sequence of embryonic development that have since been shown to be totally backwards.  The Bible does not suffer from these inconsistencies.

So I would urge any skeptic to investigate and find any Biblical fallacies because none have been discovered yet.

Kris

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2017, 05:37:35 PM »
you have to say "we don;t know that yet" a lot more with a non-god view then you need to with a god view.

So what?  I don't quite understand why 'we don't know yet' is seen as a problem.
Essentially what you're saying is that if we assume we know something (i.e. God) then we have to say 'we don't know yet' less often than if we do not assume we know that thing.  Imagine that.

The time to accept a belief is when the evidence warrants it.
Until that point, 'we don't know yet' is not only a perfectly valid position - it is the only justified one.

Exactly.

That is what science and reason are all about.

Better to say "I don't know yet" and work on finding the truth, than make up a fairy tale to explain the unknown.

We know so much more now than we did 2,000 years ago.  We can now rationally explain many of the mysteries of life that stymied folks back then.  Things that were once considered miraculous or signs of the power of God are now easily explained by science as natural phenomena. 

The fact that science does not yet have all the answers today is not a good reason to support a belief in fairy tales created hundreds or thousands of years ago by primitive men.

I "lost my religion" long ago at a young age.  Luckily for me, most of my family were RINOs- Religious in Name Only- meaning they played at being religious only because that is what society expected of them- but few of them were true believers.  I did not have to face the kind of resistance and pressure to conform that someone from a heavily religious family will likely have to face.

My only comment that may have relevance here is to separate what "religion" created and science later explained, and if there is anything Biblical that was considered a sign of God IN THE BIBLE and was now explained has not debunked anything.  Welcome to hear how you feel otherwise.  Ultimately it is for each one to make up their mind and it is between you and God, so delve into it or do not, but the two sources I mentioned get into a bit of this (especially the Quereshi book) and how the Bible just continues to show and align with science, which just adds to its authenticity as compared to the Qu'ran which lists several things as you mentioned as God explaining to Mohamed what how the world works and then being then proven false by science.  I do not have a copy of the book handy to reference so I do not want to cite something incorrectly, but for example there are things about sequence of embryonic development that have since been shown to be totally backwards.  The Bible does not suffer from these inconsistencies.

So I would urge any skeptic to investigate and find any Biblical fallacies because none have been discovered yet.

That is quite a stretch, isn't it? I mean, the Bible actually says that there are literally unicorns and dragons. Maybe that's not "inconsistent" in that the Bible doesn't in a later book say that unicorns and dragons don't exist, but... do we really want to take that as proof of its infallibility or consistency?
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MrDelane

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2017, 06:15:28 PM »
Proven abiogenesis would absolutely be a contrary claim to the existence of God because it would invalidate what is the Word of God in the Bible and show the claims to be false.  A believers stance is that we know because we are told what happened and that life did not come from non-life.  Abiogenesis tries to show how non-living matter turns into living matter, which is the exact opposite and therefore contrary.

We're not going to convince each other.  In my view it is valid to not know.  It is not the only justified position.

I wasn't trying to convince you of anything other than the idea that claims should be treated individually in regards to acceptance or rejection, not lumped together.

If proven abiogenesis would contradict your belief in a God, that is a whole other issue (and one that is yours to deal with).
Personally I don't see how proven abiogenesis would invalidate a God claim, but I suppose it all depends on the specifics of your God belief.

tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2017, 06:41:20 PM »
I'm going to stop quoting for brevity.  But re: the claim the bible has no inconsistencies is crazy.  The whole new testament contradicts the old testament.  The entirety of Genesis is absurd fairy tales.  The earth was certainly not created in 7 days!  Eve was not created from a rib of Adam.  Absurd and in direct contradiction to actual nature in every conceivable way. 

I do have to say this - it's been so long since I was in a really good religious discussion, that it really hits me just how absurd the entire construct appears to me now.  Devils, demons, angels, powers, virgin births, god's blood - its all just so bizarre.  Oh well, time to go back to tyort1ism and get ready to chill with the big guy after I die. 

If I'm wrong and non-Christians all roast in hell... well at least I'll have a lot of company.  Although what kind of shitty god even creates a hell for people to roast in.  I look at my daughter and I'd never ever want to see her tortured, no matter what she did.  Let alone would I go out of my way to construct a massive hell and throw her in it if she didn't give me props.  If we are god's children, this is exactly what the Christian god has done.  Created a torture pit to toss his children into.  Lovely.
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caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2017, 07:00:51 PM »
This is super interesting, so I'm PTF.

I must start by saying I don't know much about religion, so forgive any of my ignorance.  It wasn't a big part of life growing up, even though my parents were culturally Catholic.  They didn't attend church though.  Even though I'm an atheist, I'm extremely impressed with Caracarn's bible knowledge.  It makes me curious to read it, but I have so many other books on my list.  Also, if I read the bible, I'd be (self) obligated to read other religious texts for a fair comparison.

Cara, I'm asking these questions purely out of curiosity, and mean no negative judgement to any previous posts.

Do you believe everything that is in the bible is true?  Also, what version of the bible?

You mentioned that you must accept Jesus to get into Heaven.  What happened to people who lived and died before Jesus was born?

Do you believe god is Omni-Benevolent?  If so, how do you justify an Omni-Benevolent being condemning "good" souls, just because they weren't raised a certain way?

Where do you believe God came from?  If he's always been here, does that mean infinite time?  Before the big bang?  Did he cause the big bang?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions!

First, it can be confusing and can lead you down the wrong path to truly get in  to this without someone to walk alongside you and help your study, so I encourage anyone to seek out a good church or a Christian you know who is well versed in the Bible to help your study.  This is a great organization to connect you to a church that is focused on teaching the Bible clearly:  https://archmin.org/arch-map

I welcome the opportunity to respond, but know that what I say are simply a result of what I have learned through years of personal study.  I encourage anyone to investigate the claims for themselves with proper guidance to assist from a local church and come to your own comfort.  I will add a suggestion to ask yourself a question.  Can anything else on your reading list be more important than  truly investigating what could turn out to be one of the most important questions in your life?  Be aware that the Qu'ran is not allowed to be translated from Arabic so be skeptical of any copies you find that are not Arabic.  Quereshi explains this.  This was something I was not aware of until I read more on it and I have always wondered why there were not Qu'rans in the bookstore along with Bibles in English. That is why, so it would likely prove a challenge to read it. You will also find out that it is actually rarely read by anyone, it is an oral text and meant to be memorized.  Maybe that will intrigue you enough to pick that book up from your library and dig in.   So on to your questions.

Do you believe everything that is in the bible is true?  Also, what version of the bible?
Yes.  2 Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is God-breathed".  Jesus said himself in Matthew 5:18 that it is all true.  This is also the passage that denies the fact of some wrong interpretations that the NT somehow abolishes the OT.  It does not.  This then leads to the typical push back, "Aha! Then you are saying we should stone people and that men should have concubines and all the other things the OT says that are no longer acceptable".  No I am not, because we are not under the law, we are under grace.  By Jesus' death and resurrection atoning for all our sins (yes, even the unbelievers and for for everyone for all time)as a believer you are a new creation.  God does not see you once you are saved, he sees Jesus.  John 10:35 speaks to the infallibility of the Bible.  This does not mean that the OT was wrong or invalid, it just does not apply because we are no longer living under the law because Jesus has come.  This is a concept that is in no way explainable in a few sentences.  God is very clear.  If any part of the Bible is false then how do you know that any of it is true?  He welcomes your scrutiny because over 2,000 years of skepticism has yet to show any of it evidentially false.  Something which cannot be said of other religious texts.

It is also important to understand each book, chapter and verse in context.  Skeptics, atheists and others like to pull a single verse out and interpret it without its context.  I'd have to dig out some examples of the typical passages.  This tends to be with certain things like treatment of women, etc. that are used to show broad application but when read in context scripture is clear they are not general but specific to certain circumstances.  Another form of attack is that the Bible makes no sense in some passages grammatically or because the style is different because of a different author.  This is when you need too look at sources that go back to the original Greek and Hebrew.  These "errors" vanish then, because Greek has a lot of verb variations that allow for nuances that English does not account for, for example, so our translations introduce some things that appear as issues that really are not when one studies the original text. 

So I would recommend, and most Bible focused churches use, the NASB, because it's translation focus was to adhere as close to the original "sense" (see Greek nuances above) as any English translation we have.  Translations are another source of skeptics ammo where the original KJV was shown to have a lot of problems, but that was a result of the translators and has no impact (hopefully obviously) on the original text.  Any modern translations have corrected these translation errors. 

You mentioned that you must accept Jesus to get into Heaven.  What happened to people who lived and died before Jesus was born?

OK, so this is the answer, but without a lot of understanding of Scripture it is not going to be that clear.  As with anything here, I would suggest you seek out a pastor to get discipled and taught properly, as self study here will likely only confuse because of context and understanding of many things.  In short Paul explains in detail, using Abraham and David as examples that the answer to you question is the same as how we are saved now.  The Scripture says the their belief in God was "credited to them as righteousness".  From Romans 4:23-24 "The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.” In other words, righteousness is “credited” or given to those who have faith in God.   Started another way, which might be more clear, since God sent Jesus those who believed in God were "credited" with believing in Jesus. 

Do you believe god is Omni-Benevolent?  If so, how do you justify an Omni-Benevolent being condemning "good" souls, just because they weren't raised a certain way?
God by nature is all loving and all god yes.  He cannot be any other way due to his holiness and that is why he cannot tolerate sin.  As man it is impossible for us to be sinless, which is why Jesus took our sins upon himself and we are then presented before God as blameless and in His image.  I think your question goes along the "why do bad things happen to good people" track in one aspect.  God never promises us that believing in him will result in wonderful things.  This is the fallacy of what has come to be known as the prosperity gospel.  You hear it from the preachers on TV and the radio.  Honestly this is what I feel drives many people away, because they say "I prayed for God to heal my mom from cancer, and she died, therefore there must not be a God".  These preachers only share the "fun" passages that make everyone feel good but do not cover the passages that talk about God's wrath. Again a holy God cannot be in the presence of sin.  It is not because God is "bad" it is because he is so good that this exists.  Romans 8:28 says "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.".  This is incorrectly used as by those who do not understand that this means only good things happen to people who believe in God.  That is not what this says.  It says everything God does is good.  The hard part for us is that sometimes that means he needs to do something truly awful to us to save someone else.  In the focus of eternity what happened is good, but we may never know how, or understand why. God never promises to make that clear to us.   "Bad" things have happened in my life.  I have lost jobs, I have had children choose difficult lifestyles, I have been divorced.  In some cases I can see how these things very clearly led me to the place I am now, forcing me to move to other states, wrestle with difficult issues, and to try to work good from it.  I trust the God has it.  He knows the plan for the universe and my part in it.  I do not.  It is my job to strive for Christlikeness and trust that will get me to fulfill my purpose.  Someone who followed the prosperity gospel thinking God has given up on me might lose faith and become an atheist as an example.  With a clear understanding of all of Scripture I understand this is part of fallen man. 

The second part of your question is God condemning someone for being raised a certain way.  This is also a misinterpretation of what is happening.  All it takes is accepting Jesus as your Savior to be saved.  How you were raised may make that more a challenge but each person has this transaction between them and God.  They either believe or they do not.  I cannot save anyone.  It is a transaction between each of us and God.  I am not responsible for my six children believing in God.  The book for Romans again is the source of the verse dealing with this Romans 1:18-20 - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.".  What this means is that the existence of God is made so clear through everything around you by the world we live in and everything created in it that man is without excuse to not believe in God.  It is only through suppressing the truth, that one can deny God.  Again, I get this is a confusing explanation, but that is the heart of it but it will seem foolish on the surface and because men like to think they are all knowing and powerful they use this confusion to say, "There is no God".  God does not condemn anyone for how they were raised.  He condemns them for denying the truth.

Where do you believe God came from?  If he's always been here, does that mean infinite time?  Before the big bang?  Did he cause the big bang?

Psalm 90:2 "Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God."  God did not come from anything.  He was not created. He just always was and always will be.  Again, not a concept we are going to explain with science and therefore not one that allows an answer to your second question, other than is eternity infinite time?  As a believer I go to Genesis 1:1a and clearly see that "In the beginning God created the heavens" so yes he was before the start of what we know as the universe and he will be there after it is all gone in Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away," and he caused the big bang if that was how it really worked.  Certainly provides an simple explanation for the scientific quandary that stuff just appeared as the big bang says, doesn't it? Isn't is also interesting that back when Genesis was written, when they had no reason to believe that there was a big bang, when it would have been so much easier to create a story that something hatched the earth and all the other things you see in myth.  Instead you have simple words that explain the simple act of creation for an all powerful Creator.  I'm not sure where people see the "story" here.  God told Moses how he made things and Moses wrote them down in what we call Genesis 1.  Is it easier to believe that some guy back in the day with no science was able to piece this together on his own? 

Hope that helps and gives you some inspiration to learn more.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2017, 07:06:22 PM »
I'm going to stop quoting for brevity.  But re: the claim the bible has no inconsistencies is crazy.  The whole new testament contradicts the old testament.  The entirety of Genesis is absurd fairy tales.  The earth was certainly not created in 7 days!  Eve was not created from a rib of Adam.  Absurd and in direct contradiction to actual nature in every conceivable way. 

I do have to say this - it's been so long since I was in a really good religious discussion, that it really hits me just how absurd the entire construct appears to me now.  Devils, demons, angels, powers, virgin births, god's blood - its all just so bizarre.  Oh well, time to go back to tyort1ism and get ready to chill with the big guy after I die. 

If I'm wrong and non-Christians all roast in hell... well at least I'll have a lot of company.  Although what kind of shitty god even creates a hell for people to roast in.  I look at my daughter and I'd never ever want to see her tortured, no matter what she did.  Let alone would I go out of my way to construct a massive hell and throw her in it if she didn't give me props.  If we are god's children, this is exactly what the Christian god has done.  Created a torture pit to toss his children into.  Lovely.

I'm not going to convince you here.  If you truly want to try to understand why it is not just "crazy", look into some of the books I suggested.  For a skeptic such as yourself they should be perfect tools because they were written by people whose sole original aim was to prove what you believe.  J. Warner Wallace walks through why what you see as inconsistencies are nothing but.  You can also find a lot of material on why it is not a "shitty God" but simply a God who is absolutely just.  No one is hindering any one from believing.  The choice is each person's alone.  How is that God's fault?

scantee

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2017, 07:23:15 PM »
Quote
No one is hindering any one from believing.  The choice is each person's alone.  How is that God's fault?

This rationale is remarkably similar to how abusers excuse their abuse of others. "I didn't want to hit you, but you made me do it by not doing what I told you to."

bender

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2017, 07:58:36 PM »
Caracarn - thanks for the detailed explanations.  I've been ridiculed by family for having doubts and even posing such questions.  Literally the response I get is "are you stupid?"  Or "You will be a lost soul if you don't believe". You've basically just told me the latter, but in a much more intelligent way, backing each of your statements with Bible verses.  It doesn't fit with my personal beliefs, but I truly appreciate the civilized discussion.




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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2017, 08:11:38 PM »
I'm going to stop quoting for brevity.  But re: the claim the bible has no inconsistencies is crazy.  The whole new testament contradicts the old testament.  The entirety of Genesis is absurd fairy tales.  The earth was certainly not created in 7 days!  Eve was not created from a rib of Adam.  Absurd and in direct contradiction to actual nature in every conceivable way. 

I do have to say this - it's been so long since I was in a really good religious discussion, that it really hits me just how absurd the entire construct appears to me now.  Devils, demons, angels, powers, virgin births, god's blood - its all just so bizarre.  Oh well, time to go back to tyort1ism and get ready to chill with the big guy after I die. 

If I'm wrong and non-Christians all roast in hell... well at least I'll have a lot of company.  Although what kind of shitty god even creates a hell for people to roast in.  I look at my daughter and I'd never ever want to see her tortured, no matter what she did.  Let alone would I go out of my way to construct a massive hell and throw her in it if she didn't give me props.  If we are god's children, this is exactly what the Christian god has done.  Created a torture pit to toss his children into.  Lovely.

I'm not going to convince you here.  If you truly want to try to understand why it is not just "crazy", look into some of the books I suggested.  For a skeptic such as yourself they should be perfect tools because they were written by people whose sole original aim was to prove what you believe.  J. Warner Wallace walks through why what you see as inconsistencies are nothing but.  You can also find a lot of material on why it is not a "shitty God" but simply a God who is absolutely just.  No one is hindering any one from believing.  The choice is each person's alone.  How is that God's fault?

I'm not going to go read a book to engage in a discussion.  I've posed my issues, you are free to respond to them in this thread, or not.  Notice I never told you to "go read blah blah, it explains everything to you". 
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2017, 08:28:37 PM »
Tyort - I think we'll be spending some time together in the future - look me up and we'll grab a beer!

The belief requirement is also one of the things that pushed me away.  I could have written your post on that topic.

Can you share what is Tyortism's take on an any afterlife?  Benderism doesn't leave anything to look forward to, as my version of eternal life is the impact I make on people and the world.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2017, 08:46:00 PM »
Tyort - I think we'll be spending some time together in the future - look me up and we'll grab a beer!

The belief requirement is also one of the things that pushed me away.  I could have written your post on that topic.

Can you share what is Tyortism's take on an any afterlife?  Benderism doesn't leave anything to look forward to, as my version of eternal life is the impact I make on people and the world.

Haha, thanks man.  Tyortism has 2 tenets:

1. Everyone gets to be with god after death.  No exceptions.
2. When in doubt, refer to tenet 1.

As for why I believe in god at all?  I have no logic or proof.  Only certain high intensity experiences that 'almost' let me see the depth of existence.  But never quite fully realized.  That glimpse is enough for me, even though its totally subjective.

PS, funny story.  After I made my realization that there could not be a hell if there was a god and he (it) was a loving god, I told my wife:

Me: "Honey, there's no hell, we all go to heaven!"
Her: "So Hitler and Stalin are in heaven?"
Me: "Uhhhh....."  "Hmmm...."  "Well, yes, guess they have to be!"

Now that I've had these beliefs for a while, it actually does not bother me at all that 'bad' people get to be with god. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 08:48:00 PM by tyort1 »
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2017, 09:19:53 PM »
I do have to say this - it's been so long since I was in a really good religious discussion, that it really hits me just how absurd the entire construct appears to me now.  Devils, demons, angels, powers, virgin births, god's blood - its all just so bizarre.  Oh well, time to go back to tyort1ism and get ready to chill with the big guy after I die. 

You might like the segment of Bill Burr's comedy show about how he lost his religion.

If you listen to enough origin stories that you haven't been indoctrinated into, your own accepted story starts to sound pretty moronic, too.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2017, 03:48:54 AM »
I'm going to stop quoting for brevity.  But re: the claim the bible has no inconsistencies is crazy.  The whole new testament contradicts the old testament.  The entirety of Genesis is absurd fairy tales.  The earth was certainly not created in 7 days!  Eve was not created from a rib of Adam.  Absurd and in direct contradiction to actual nature in every conceivable way. 

I do have to say this - it's been so long since I was in a really good religious discussion, that it really hits me just how absurd the entire construct appears to me now.  Devils, demons, angels, powers, virgin births, god's blood - its all just so bizarre.  Oh well, time to go back to tyort1ism and get ready to chill with the big guy after I die. 

If I'm wrong and non-Christians all roast in hell... well at least I'll have a lot of company.  Although what kind of shitty god even creates a hell for people to roast in.  I look at my daughter and I'd never ever want to see her tortured, no matter what she did.  Let alone would I go out of my way to construct a massive hell and throw her in it if she didn't give me props.  If we are god's children, this is exactly what the Christian god has done.  Created a torture pit to toss his children into.  Lovely.

I'm not going to convince you here.  If you truly want to try to understand why it is not just "crazy", look into some of the books I suggested.  For a skeptic such as yourself they should be perfect tools because they were written by people whose sole original aim was to prove what you believe.  J. Warner Wallace walks through why what you see as inconsistencies are nothing but.  You can also find a lot of material on why it is not a "shitty God" but simply a God who is absolutely just.  No one is hindering any one from believing.  The choice is each person's alone.  How is that God's fault?

I'm not going to go read a book to engage in a discussion.  I've posed my issues, you are free to respond to them in this thread, or not.  Notice I never told you to "go read blah blah, it explains everything to you".

Trying to sum up 50 pages in a post would end up writing those 50 pages here.  That seems a little ridiculous and tedious.  I guess you never share links with anybody to share information, you just retype it all for them?

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2017, 03:55:08 AM »
Quote
No one is hindering any one from believing.  The choice is each person's alone.  How is that God's fault?

This rationale is remarkably similar to how abusers excuse their abuse of others. "I didn't want to hit you, but you made me do it by not doing what I told you to."

You are entitled to your interpretation.  I'd posit that blaming your lack of well being on another is the epitome of self-centeredness.  You are comparing apples and oranges here.  A crude way to look at this is because God created you, you worship him.  You are not beholden in any way to the person in your example, so their claim of authority over you is baseless.  God's is not.  I get that for an unbeliever that makes little sense.  Our sinful nature would have God destroy us immediately but because of his mercy he offers another path, that of the gospel.  Having that choice is an act of grace not an excuse. 

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2017, 04:01:44 AM »
Caracarn - thanks for the detailed explanations.  I've been ridiculed by family for having doubts and even posing such questions.  Literally the response I get is "are you stupid?"  Or "You will be a lost soul if you don't believe". You've basically just told me the latter, but in a much more intelligent way, backing each of your statements with Bible verses.  It doesn't fit with my personal beliefs, but I truly appreciate the civilized discussion.

I appreciate it as well.  The comfort of having lots of company, we'll all get to hang out, etc. tends to be very common.  It's not that way, but it tends to be what people try to rationalize.  It's not lost, but eternal unimaginable torment versus eternal unimaginable joy and happiness.  The lake of fire is not a bar where we get to chill with our like minded souls.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2017, 04:23:14 AM »


My kids are not baptized, we don't go to church and we don't feel religion is a relevant topic until the kids are old enough to firmly distinguish belief in Jesus from Santa Claus.  It's funny - kids will believe pretty much anything you tell them.  When the subject comes up, I explain things with "Some people believe xxxx".  This is rare though, with minimal exposure to religion and exposure to modern society, my kids don't think about it much.  It's typically after a visit with Grandma.


Yes. Santa.

My kids think Jesus is clearly a silly story (though they know to keep their mouths shut about that!) Yet they believe in Santa full stop. Clearly it's possible to magically deliver millions of presents in one night! But no, dead guys can't float up to the sky, and women obviously don't get magically pregnant from God, he doesn't have sperm!
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2017, 04:54:30 AM »
My dad was raised Catholic and stopped going to church as soon as he left home. Lied to his parents for years, did stuff like looked up mass times when they visited so they thought he went. Obviously they figured it out-of-town and they blamed my mom, who is a Protestant!

He occasionally went to church with us but isn't a believer. My siblings and I all went to super liberal Protestant churches. Biblical inconsistency was a sermon topic :) We were pro-gay people before it was cool. Etc.

But all of my siblings and I stopped believing around college age, if not before. My mom still goes. She doesn't care if we believe. She more like Tyort1. Jesus loves Everyone! Yay!

The liberal church in my current town seems to actively encourage non believers to join for community fellowship. They don't really care what you believe. We might join a UU church for that reason at some point. The few times we've visited they say things like "in the faith I was raised in, we celebrated Christmas. Now let's song Christmas carols". Lol clearly no one is pretending Christmas is really the birth of Christ but yay for singing songs!

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2017, 06:34:46 AM »
I've attended a UU church and I loved it.  We're 45 minutes away from it now though, so we stopped attending.  I would love to go back if we move closer.

Caracarn, your responses are very thorough.  I can see how your beliefs have been cemented based on your studies.  For me, it still seems like you've got to make a lot of assumptions to piece everything together, and these assumptions are "magical" rather than physics based.  For me, physics-based reasoning seems to fit better.

I believe our current universe was created in a Big Bang.  However, I don't believe it's the first Big Bang there has ever been, nor do I believe it will be the last.  No, I don't have any math to back it up, just a simple knowledge of how gravity works.  I believe that all of the matter in the universe is expanding due to a Big Bang.  At some point, it will start collapsing again.  It will collapse down to a point of incredible pressure due to all of the matter coming back together, and then we will have another Big Bang.  Of course, we'll be long gone by then.

I don't believe there can be any sort of afterlife.  It seems like a good story to give people hope that their lives won't end.  I believe it will just be like a deep dreamless sleep.  Lights out.  That is depressing, of course.  It's even depressing to me.  However, it means that I want to make the most out of life while I'm here.  I'll be here for such a short time over all, that I know at some point I'll be long forgotten.  So, I need to influence others as positively as possible, so that my impact can be as helpful to the human race as possible.

As for whether I should read the Bible before other books, perhaps you have a point.  In my mind, it's fiction*, so it draws no more interest than a good fantasy or sci-fi novel.  Your answers have definitely moved it up my list though, if for nothing more than understanding other's beliefs.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully.

*I had a friend that took a college course called "The Bible as Fiction" who said they really enjoyed the class and the discussions.  I think it would be fascinating.
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2017, 06:48:02 AM »
We've also attended a few UU churches.  If you have teenagers, they have the most amazing sex ed program, called Our Whole Lives. I heartily recommend it.  Nice people who do lots of very good work.  It didn't do anything for me because I find any kind of ritual mind-numbingly boring, but the rest of the family liked it.  Most UU ministers are highly educated and give amazing, thought provoking sermons on all sorts of topics.  Sadly, ours was the only awful UU speaker I've ever heard.

I don't find the thought of death sad or troubling at all.  Of course, it is sad for those left behind who miss their loved ones, and the process could be scary or painful.  But I expect that when I die, it will be exactly the same as before I was born.  My consciousness will cease.  I simply won't exist, just like all biological organisms.  I certainly won't care about it at that point.  Circle of life and all. 

But Tyortism sounds kind of like fun and should it come to pass, I will bring the beer.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2017, 07:26:34 AM »

Caracarn, your responses are very thorough.  I can see how your beliefs have been cemented based on your studies.  For me, it still seems like you've got to make a lot of assumptions to piece everything together, and these assumptions are "magical" rather than physics based.  For me, physics-based reasoning seems to fit better.


The quest to be able to explain everything is both understandable as we are a curious lot, but yet ultimately futile as any reasonable person understands there will just be things that are too complex to ever understand with our limited minds.  A good example is the human brain.  Jeff Lichtman, a Harvard neurosicentist  has said is "If everything you need to know about the brain is a mile, how far have we walked in this mile?"  His answer?  3 inches.  Limiting oneself to physics based reasoning is extremely constraining, but I get the difficultly of getting comfortable beyond what we can see and touch.

This leads me to an interesting line of questioning for you.    If everything is physics based, then how do you come to grips with something like human emotions?  I assume you do not deny that they exist, that people feel the same stimuli differently based on their emotional state.  I assume that you love someone in your life and that someone loves you back, but you could not explain "love" with anything physics based, so how does that work in that worldview?  Or are those the assumptions in your worldview?  An going back to the brain, what physics based evolutionary processes can begin to explain how the 3 inches we do understand was built?  We have about 40,000 neurons in a cubic millimeter of brain.  Each neuron connects to 1,000, sometimes as many as 10,000 other neurons and those dendrites all go through that same cubic millimeter leading to about 20 million synapses in that cubic millimeter of brain meter.  Don't forget there are dendrites from other areas of the brain also passing through our area.  Now with neuroplasticity these linkages change, create and vanish on the fly all the time.  There would be about 40,000 glial cells in this space as well, of and in the cubic millimeter there is a meter of blood vessels.  How can a purely physics based line of reasoning postulate any reasonable explanation about his this complexity just evolved?  It's like saying if I tossed 100,000 parts on a table that when I came back later they would have formed themselves into a working car.  As a physics based reasoning person you would say that would be absurd to assume that could ever happen, but you are OK with claiming that something like the brain basically did the same thing?

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2017, 07:34:20 AM »
you have to say "we don;t know that yet" a lot more with a non-god view then you need to with a god view.

So what?  I don't quite understand why 'we don't know yet' is seen as a problem.
Essentially what you're saying is that if we assume we know something (i.e. God) then we have to say 'we don't know yet' less often than if we do not assume we know that thing.  Imagine that.

The time to accept a belief is when the evidence warrants it.
Until that point, 'we don't know yet' is not only a perfectly valid position - it is the only justified one.

Exactly.

That is what science and reason are all about.

Better to say "I don't know yet" and work on finding the truth, than make up a fairy tale to explain the unknown.

We know so much more now than we did 2,000 years ago.  We can now rationally explain many of the mysteries of life that stymied folks back then.  Things that were once considered miraculous or signs of the power of God are now easily explained by science as natural phenomena. 

The fact that science does not yet have all the answers today is not a good reason to support a belief in fairy tales created hundreds or thousands of years ago by primitive men.

I "lost my religion" long ago at a young age.  Luckily for me, most of my family were RINOs- Religious in Name Only- meaning they played at being religious only because that is what society expected of them- but few of them were true believers.  I did not have to face the kind of resistance and pressure to conform that someone from a heavily religious family will likely have to face.

My only comment that may have relevance here is to separate what "religion" created and science later explained, and if there is anything Biblical that was considered a sign of God IN THE BIBLE and was now explained has not debunked anything.  Welcome to hear how you feel otherwise.  Ultimately it is for each one to make up their mind and it is between you and God, so delve into it or do not, but the two sources I mentioned get into a bit of this (especially the Quereshi book) and how the Bible just continues to show and align with science, which just adds to its authenticity as compared to the Qu'ran which lists several things as you mentioned as God explaining to Mohamed what how the world works and then being then proven false by science.  I do not have a copy of the book handy to reference so I do not want to cite something incorrectly, but for example there are things about sequence of embryonic development that have since been shown to be totally backwards.  The Bible does not suffer from these inconsistencies.

So I would urge any skeptic to investigate and find any Biblical fallacies because none have been discovered yet.

That is quite a stretch, isn't it? I mean, the Bible actually says that there are literally unicorns and dragons. Maybe that's not "inconsistent" in that the Bible doesn't in a later book say that unicorns and dragons don't exist, but... do we really want to take that as proof of its infallibility or consistency?

Still kind of wondering about this...
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2017, 07:47:02 AM »
<intelligent design>

Meh. I find the physics based belief to be as beautiful and awe inspiring as you find the biblical version. The real answer is that we have no idea how we came to be, and both our beliefs are currently origin stories. Stuff we tell each other around the camp fire as the beasties howl in the dark.

What's your goal here? The civil discussion is pretty cool, but your post still have that that hint of unholy fire. You're not going to convert us. A better approach might be 'this I believe' instead of 'this you must also believe'. I believe in God, and have a personal relationship with Jesus. My faith has come from many hours of thought and being open to the will of God. It would be fun to talk about how our stances merge, and how they differ. But right now the only conversation you want to have is about how you're right, because GOD motherfucker. Where's the fun, or the respect, in that?

Vindicated

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2017, 07:57:06 AM »
Not exactly... that's a bit of a stretch, comparing throwing parts on a table and them assembling themselves to evolution.

Evolution makes sense to me on it's own.  Our ancient ancestors picked mates that had the best possible survival traits.  Over thousands of generations, this means that the best brains moved down the line, and kept getting better.  We all pick our mates for similar reasons.  Are they smart?  Are they physically fit?  Are they healthy?  and so on...

I picked my Wife, yes because I love her, but also because her genetic profile would offer my offspring traits that I lacked.*

*The best example is that I'm quite pale, and I burn easily in the Sun.  I believe a large reason I am attracted to my Wife is that she's dark skinned.  Our Son is perfect.

As for emotions, I am fortunate that I do feel emotions, but some humans don't.  They're called psychopaths.  Emotions are a result of chemical reactions in the brain.  Emotions evolved through the same way that other beneficial traits have.  We feel fear when there is danger, because our ancestors that felt fear were more likely to survive and procreate.  Picture 2 men and 1 woman sitting around a fire in 10,000BC.  Man 1 hears a sound, but discounts it, because he's fearless.  Man 2 and Woman receive a boost of adrenaline, and begin a fight or flight response.  A large predator charges.  Who is more likely to get away?  Man 2 and Woman make a baby a few years later.  That baby also feels fear.  If Man 1 & woman had made a baby, that child may not have felt fear, thus would be subject to the same possible deadly scenario.

That is logical to me.

Also, if emotions are created by God, I don't see any way that a God would provide emotions to some humans, but not all.
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2017, 07:57:57 AM »
The quest to be able to explain everything is both understandable as we are a curious lot, but yet ultimately futile as any reasonable person understands there will just be things that are too complex to ever understand with our limited minds.  A good example is the human brain.  Jeff Lichtman, a Harvard neurosicentist  has said is "If everything you need to know about the brain is a mile, how far have we walked in this mile?"  His answer?  3 inches.  Limiting oneself to physics based reasoning is extremely constraining, but I get the difficultly of getting comfortable beyond what we can see and touch.

So... because we cannot understand everything with our 'limited minds,' we should not pursue knowledge and instead assume answers to our questions?

Once again, "I don't know" is the only justifiable position when faced with a gap in our knowledge and an unproven claim.

Quote
This leads me to an interesting line of questioning for you.    If everything is physics based, then how do you come to grips with something like human emotions?  I assume you do not deny that they exist, that people feel the same stimuli differently based on their emotional state.  I assume that you love someone in your life and that someone loves you back, but you could not explain "love" with anything physics based, so how does that work in that worldview?  Or are those the assumptions in your worldview?  An going back to the brain, what physics based evolutionary processes can begin to explain how the 3 inches we do understand was built?  We have about 40,000 neurons in a cubic millimeter of brain.  Each neuron connects to 1,000, sometimes as many as 10,000 other neurons and those dendrites all go through that same cubic millimeter leading to about 20 million synapses in that cubic millimeter of brain meter.  Don't forget there are dendrites from other areas of the brain also passing through our area.  Now with neuroplasticity these linkages change, create and vanish on the fly all the time.  There would be about 40,000 glial cells in this space as well, of and in the cubic millimeter there is a meter of blood vessels.  How can a purely physics based line of reasoning postulate any reasonable explanation about his this complexity just evolved?  It's like saying if I tossed 100,000 parts on a table that when I came back later they would have formed themselves into a working car.  As a physics based reasoning person you would say that would be absurd to assume that could ever happen, but you are OK with claiming that something like the brain basically did the same thing?

Incredulity is not an argument.
And you are once again arguing as if these two claims are one.

An 'all powerful' God could still exist in a universe where brains evolve and emotion is controlled through physical properties, and it would still need to be proven or disproven on it's own.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2017, 08:04:42 AM »
you have to say "we don;t know that yet" a lot more with a non-god view then you need to with a god view.

So what?  I don't quite understand why 'we don't know yet' is seen as a problem.
Essentially what you're saying is that if we assume we know something (i.e. God) then we have to say 'we don't know yet' less often than if we do not assume we know that thing.  Imagine that.

The time to accept a belief is when the evidence warrants it.
Until that point, 'we don't know yet' is not only a perfectly valid position - it is the only justified one.

Exactly.

That is what science and reason are all about.

Better to say "I don't know yet" and work on finding the truth, than make up a fairy tale to explain the unknown.

We know so much more now than we did 2,000 years ago.  We can now rationally explain many of the mysteries of life that stymied folks back then.  Things that were once considered miraculous or signs of the power of God are now easily explained by science as natural phenomena. 

The fact that science does not yet have all the answers today is not a good reason to support a belief in fairy tales created hundreds or thousands of years ago by primitive men.

I "lost my religion" long ago at a young age.  Luckily for me, most of my family were RINOs- Religious in Name Only- meaning they played at being religious only because that is what society expected of them- but few of them were true believers.  I did not have to face the kind of resistance and pressure to conform that someone from a heavily religious family will likely have to face.

My only comment that may have relevance here is to separate what "religion" created and science later explained, and if there is anything Biblical that was considered a sign of God IN THE BIBLE and was now explained has not debunked anything.  Welcome to hear how you feel otherwise.  Ultimately it is for each one to make up their mind and it is between you and God, so delve into it or do not, but the two sources I mentioned get into a bit of this (especially the Quereshi book) and how the Bible just continues to show and align with science, which just adds to its authenticity as compared to the Qu'ran which lists several things as you mentioned as God explaining to Mohamed what how the world works and then being then proven false by science.  I do not have a copy of the book handy to reference so I do not want to cite something incorrectly, but for example there are things about sequence of embryonic development that have since been shown to be totally backwards.  The Bible does not suffer from these inconsistencies.

So I would urge any skeptic to investigate and find any Biblical fallacies because none have been discovered yet.

That is quite a stretch, isn't it? I mean, the Bible actually says that there are literally unicorns and dragons. Maybe that's not "inconsistent" in that the Bible doesn't in a later book say that unicorns and dragons don't exist, but... do we really want to take that as proof of its infallibility or consistency?

Still kind of wondering about this...

Really??!!  The dragon I believe you are referring to is in Revelation where Satan is described as a dragon.  And Revelation is a prophetic book not a historic book.  The entire book is a vision God gave to John and told him to write about.  It is not saying he walks the earth as a dragon or anything like that.  The only other is in Isiah where  it is used to refer to a sea monster or serpent in basically a poetic context, so once again not indicating that Noah had a pet dragon.  Not aware of any other reference to dragons.  Also in my search there are 0 references to unicorns.

This inconsistency test is relevant to historical books.  Names used and people mentioned correlate to what occurred and people that lived where connections have been made.  Certainly there are people named for which we have no historical record.  There are also millions of people that lived prior to the time of records of advanced civilizations who lived and we have no record for but that does not mean they did not exist, but it does mean we cannot prove they existed in a different time and that the written record has errors in it.  The major kings and civilizations were there etc. 

I mean those who want to just jump in on the surface and wave it off as lunacy or a fable do this all the time.  They search for a word like "dragon" see that it is there and say, "see it is BS.  Dragons aren't real" without spending any amount of effort to postulate a real analysis and argument.  The Bible no more claims dragons walk on earth than I do sitting here now.  It uses them as descriptive language to illustrate to a human mind a concept. 

Cwadda

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2017, 08:06:35 AM »
Christian here, checking in. Maybe not the "conventional one", though.

I grew up in a conservative branch of protestantism, and later switched to another denomination that was more open. Few examples:
-I now attend a church that allows female ministers. I don't see why both genders can't preach and share the love of God.
-It's also accepting of gay marriage. Again, I don't see why God would make people "choose" between being gay and accepting Jesus as savior

I don't know if I'm right about these things, nor do I really care; because ultimately I don't think God focuses on the nitty gritty nuts and bolts. These are my interpretations of these things so I attend a church that aligns with them. I think the big picture is much more important. The big picture is the fundamental facet of Christianity: love.

I studied geology in college and don't believe in a 5,000 year old Earth. More like a 3.7-4.0 Ga one. But again, I don't care about being right about this. It's insignificant in the big picture. I'm Christian because I believe in the purpose of Christianity, not the how but more importantly, the why.

caracarn

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2017, 08:11:11 AM »
The quest to be able to explain everything is both understandable as we are a curious lot, but yet ultimately futile as any reasonable person understands there will just be things that are too complex to ever understand with our limited minds.  A good example is the human brain.  Jeff Lichtman, a Harvard neurosicentist  has said is "If everything you need to know about the brain is a mile, how far have we walked in this mile?"  His answer?  3 inches.  Limiting oneself to physics based reasoning is extremely constraining, but I get the difficultly of getting comfortable beyond what we can see and touch.

So... because we cannot understand everything with our 'limited minds,' we should not pursue knowledge and instead assume answers to our questions?

Once again, "I don't know" is the only justifiable position when faced with a gap in our knowledge and an unproven claim.

Quote
This leads me to an interesting line of questioning for you.    If everything is physics based, then how do you come to grips with something like human emotions?  I assume you do not deny that they exist, that people feel the same stimuli differently based on their emotional state.  I assume that you love someone in your life and that someone loves you back, but you could not explain "love" with anything physics based, so how does that work in that worldview?  Or are those the assumptions in your worldview?  An going back to the brain, what physics based evolutionary processes can begin to explain how the 3 inches we do understand was built?  We have about 40,000 neurons in a cubic millimeter of brain.  Each neuron connects to 1,000, sometimes as many as 10,000 other neurons and those dendrites all go through that same cubic millimeter leading to about 20 million synapses in that cubic millimeter of brain meter.  Don't forget there are dendrites from other areas of the brain also passing through our area.  Now with neuroplasticity these linkages change, create and vanish on the fly all the time.  There would be about 40,000 glial cells in this space as well, of and in the cubic millimeter there is a meter of blood vessels.  How can a purely physics based line of reasoning postulate any reasonable explanation about his this complexity just evolved?  It's like saying if I tossed 100,000 parts on a table that when I came back later they would have formed themselves into a working car.  As a physics based reasoning person you would say that would be absurd to assume that could ever happen, but you are OK with claiming that something like the brain basically did the same thing?

Incredulity is not an argument.
And you are once again arguing as if these two claims are one.

An 'all powerful' God could still exist in a universe where brains evolve and emotion is controlled through physical properties, and it would still need to be proven or disproven on it's own.

You are missing the entire point of my response.  It was simply to point out and understand what I see as the limitations of a physics based reasoning.  The first piece is if you are one physics based then how do you rationalize things that are not explainable using physics.  Do they not exist in your  worldview, or are they there?  That's the only question.  On the second, I apologize if I was questiong as if the two are one.  I did a poor job then.  Certainly your last paragraph is something I do not take issue with.  Not saying that emotions may not be discovered to be controlled through physical processes, but the poster pointed out that they prefer a physics based model, so it reverts to my original question.  Until that proof is discovered, do emotions not exist in that worldview?