Author Topic: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.  (Read 41740 times)

J Boogie

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #450 on: June 20, 2017, 09:29:01 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation.  It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

If you consider Jesus a man, then yes.  But as a Christian you don't, so here's a few examples of why being "good" (living a virtuous life, being kind and generous, etc) has everything to do with going to heaven according to Jesus himself.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
(Matthew 7:21)

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
(Matthew 5:48)

"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.  For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,  I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

(Matthew 25)

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

(Matthew 21)


To me it is glaringly obvious that Jesus intended his followers to believe that their behavior would determine whether or not they went to heaven. 

I would agree with Vindicated that the idea of salvation coming simply from accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior is man made.

And, as a cultural catholic, I am quite peeved by the insinuation and stereotyping that we don't know the faith and we don't know the scriptures.  I'm not leaving Christianity because I haven't studied it closely enough, I'm leaving it because I've discovered contradictions, errors, and disconnects that no bible scholar or church father can address effectively (though it's not for lack of effort, and I do appreciate the minds of scholars like NT Wright, Thomas Aquinas, Fr. Barron, Fr. James Martin, Augustine, Popes Francis, Leo XIII, JPII, etc).

But before I sing the praises of the Catholic Church, I should share that my brother just told me his wife is pregnant with their fourth right now.  That'll be 4 under 4.  I have a one year old, so I imagine 4 under 4 is a straight up nightmare. This baby was not planned (I'm actually not sure if any were, but after their third he told me they wanted to take a very long break).  I've talked to him about how I don't believe and he's actually in a pretty similar place.  But we're both married to quite faithful Catholics.  And while I find that contraception enables promiscuous behavior among those who are too immature to be having sex, I don't see why it should be wrong for committed couples.  Well, I guess I do if you are of the belief that God is very particular about what he wants.  "Whatever God wants" or "Put it in God's hands" kind of goes out the window if you use contraception.  Which it should in this case, because God has given us minds and hearts to decide how many kids we want... without having to act like teenagers when we want to express our love. 









Father Dougal

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #451 on: June 20, 2017, 09:33:38 AM »
If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole.

I think that those people who think the Bible is literally true are saying that He is a bit of a homicidal maniac (killing babies and all that) and will punish lack of faith above all else.  All the more reason to do what He says (via his representatives on Earth).

J Boogie

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #452 on: June 20, 2017, 09:42:36 AM »
What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

I think it's the evangelical nature of Christianity.  Consider the passages - "Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations" or "Whoever acknowledges me before man will be acknowledged in heaven."


Not everyone wants to be a disciple.  But Christians have read the bible and know they're supposed to be bringing others into the fold.  It can be a turn off.  Many people know that Christians are like this.  They know many Christians will entertain their rudeness and condescension patiently while they ask gotcha questions that they aren't really hoping to hear a satisfying answer for.

It's not unlike making faces at those guards that don't flinch.  We know that their first priority is to do their solemn duty and we just want to get them to break.  People want to push Christians to the breaking point and then accuse them of hypocrisy.

Kris

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #453 on: June 20, 2017, 09:43:34 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).

I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

I wouldn't say everybody. But in the case of people in the U.S., the fact that there are so many Republican legislators trying to legislate their own Christian beliefs on the entire populace might have a little to do with it.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #454 on: June 20, 2017, 10:00:19 AM »
I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

I wouldn't say everybody. But in the case of people in the U.S., the fact that there are so many Republican legislators trying to legislate their own Christian beliefs on the entire populace might have a little to do with it.

1. Yeah, fair point about everybody.

2. Is it truly the Chrisitan beliefs that are the issue, or more that the values don't match my own? All this push against abortion makes me mighty unhappy. Doesn't matter to me if the assholes desire to legislate my body comes from a sincere desire to save an unborn soul, or to save my own karma. 

Then again, the US is christian, so the hair I'm splitting might be squealing from all the strain. I don't blame you if the philosophical argument doesn't interest you ;)

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #455 on: June 20, 2017, 10:01:46 AM »
I personally think if you discount Christianity, call it FSM or whatever, then you are missing out on a lot of great stories and lessons. They don't have to be taken literally, but there is still something there.
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Kris

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #456 on: June 20, 2017, 10:10:10 AM »
I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

I wouldn't say everybody. But in the case of people in the U.S., the fact that there are so many Republican legislators trying to legislate their own Christian beliefs on the entire populace might have a little to do with it.

1. Yeah, fair point about everybody.

2. Is it truly the Chrisitan beliefs that are the issue, or more that the values don't match my own? All this push against abortion makes me mighty unhappy. Doesn't matter to me if the assholes desire to legislate my body comes from a sincere desire to save an unborn soul, or to save my own karma. 

Then again, the US is christian, so the hair I'm splitting might be squealing from all the strain. I don't blame you if the philosophical argument doesn't interest you ;)

It is not the Christian beliefs as such that are the issue. It is the push toward Christian theocracy in a country that is not supposed to have a state-sponsored and supported religion. I am not a Christian, but I have Christian friends who also recognize that this is not okay. (Jimmy Carter, himself a born-again Christian, recognizes it as well). Pushes by "Christian" legislators to outlaw abortion, to abolish gay marriage, and in the case of people like Mike Pence at the state level, to publicly fund gay conversion therapy, raise hackles, and rightly so. Perhaps if Hindus were to start trying to legislate their beliefs on the rest of us, they'd start to come under some fire, as well.
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DoubleDown

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #457 on: June 20, 2017, 10:14:51 AM »
You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).

Yes I understand why not everyone can accept it, but no, I don't agree that it makes God an asshole if you don't believe it. I'm a human who was not raised as a Christian, so I haven't been brainwashed into the belief. I considered all the evidence for and against, and I believe it.

Now, consider this: If there's a God, why should He have to behave according to your (and others' here) ideas about what is the "right" way for God to behave and what he should accept (i.e., that not accepting disbelievers is somehow mean and asshole-ish)? Where did it come about that being a "good" person should make one worthy of going to heaven, even if they think God is an asshole or doesn't even exist? God desires worship. He's not PC. He's not accepting of everyone and their views no matter what. It's not a commune, it's God's kingdom in heaven and he gets to decide who goes there.

But God (if you believe) is way more loving than you or I could comprehend. Even though mankind has turned their backs repeatedly on God, and done unspeakable evil against each other throughout history, he provided a means for atonement so people could still be with him. That's the point of Jesus Christ and why acceptance of him, and not helping old ladies across the street, is what's required. Everyone is free to avail themselves of the gift. God isn't preventing you or anyone else from accepting it. But if you don't accept his gift, I don't think it's fair to call him an asshole about it. That's on the person choosing to disregard the gift that was freely offered.
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Vindicated

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #458 on: June 20, 2017, 11:21:26 AM »
DoubleDown,

Do you have comments about the passages from Matthew that J Boogie shared?  Reading those, it seems that Jesus was stating that the belief in him is not what's required, it's your actions of following his teachings that gains your acceptance.

Specifically this part:

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

(Matthew 21)

To me it is glaringly obvious that Jesus intended his followers to believe that their behavior would determine whether or not they went to heaven. 

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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #459 on: June 20, 2017, 11:47:51 AM »
..., is what's required. Everyone is free to avail themselves of the gift. God isn't preventing you or anyone else from accepting it. But if you don't accept his gift, I don't think it's fair to call him an asshole about it. That's on the person choosing to disregard the gift that was freely offered.
I have a theological disagreement with your position.  If salvation is contingent on a condition being fulfilled by the savee then that would be salvation by works and it would violate the principle of grace which doesn't permit works.  Salvation by works is always a fatal error.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #460 on: June 20, 2017, 11:51:09 AM »
..., is what's required. Everyone is free to avail themselves of the gift. God isn't preventing you or anyone else from accepting it. But if you don't accept his gift, I don't think it's fair to call him an asshole about it. That's on the person choosing to disregard the gift that was freely offered.
I have a theological disagreement with your position.  If salvation is contingent on a condition being fulfilled by the savee then that would be salvation by works and it would violate the principle of grace which doesn't permit works.  Salvation by works is always a fatal error.

And your fatal error is to assume grace doesn't extend to everyone.
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #461 on: June 20, 2017, 11:55:06 AM »
..., is what's required. Everyone is free to avail themselves of the gift. God isn't preventing you or anyone else from accepting it. But if you don't accept his gift, I don't think it's fair to call him an asshole about it. That's on the person choosing to disregard the gift that was freely offered.
I have a theological disagreement with your position.  If salvation is contingent on a condition being fulfilled by the savee then that would be salvation by works and it would violate the principle of grace which doesn't permit works.  Salvation by works is always a fatal error.

And your fatal error is to assume grace doesn't extend to everyone.
Grace clearly doesn't.  The election of grace is not numerous.

tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #462 on: June 20, 2017, 11:56:47 AM »
..., is what's required. Everyone is free to avail themselves of the gift. God isn't preventing you or anyone else from accepting it. But if you don't accept his gift, I don't think it's fair to call him an asshole about it. That's on the person choosing to disregard the gift that was freely offered.
I have a theological disagreement with your position.  If salvation is contingent on a condition being fulfilled by the savee then that would be salvation by works and it would violate the principle of grace which doesn't permit works.  Salvation by works is always a fatal error.

And your fatal error is to assume grace doesn't extend to everyone.
Grace clearly doesn't.  The election of grace is not numerous.

Clearly doesn't?  Clearly it does.  Any other view is just lies from the pit of hell.
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #463 on: June 20, 2017, 11:58:24 AM »
Many many will go to hell, bible is clear on it.

Father Dougal

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #464 on: June 20, 2017, 12:01:43 PM »


Then again, the US is christian...

Er, no.

The US has separation of religion and state.  It's in your constitution - first amendment I believe.  Very wise founders you had...

tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #465 on: June 20, 2017, 12:04:40 PM »
Many many will go to hell, bible is clear on it.

Nope, wrong.
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #466 on: June 20, 2017, 12:05:26 PM »
Many many will go to hell, bible is clear on it.

Nope, wrong.
Whatever dude.

tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #467 on: June 20, 2017, 12:06:36 PM »
Many many will go to hell, bible is clear on it.

Nope, wrong.
Whatever dude.

My authority on this subject comes from god.
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #468 on: June 20, 2017, 12:12:44 PM »
My authority on this subject comes from god.
Universal salvation is a lie from the wicked one.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #469 on: June 20, 2017, 12:14:39 PM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).

I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

Well, first of all, I really didn't think I was being a dick. I directed my comments specifically towards DoubleDown's beliefs, not towards them personally. You are the one hurling personal insults. DoubleDown was politely explaining why they think I (not me personally, but people like me) am going to burn in hell. Which is frankly a contradictory statement, because I don't think it's polite to tell people who don't believe the same things that you believe that they're going to hell. Why should you be surprised when people bristle at the assertion that failing to assimilate to your beliefs will result in an eternity of agonizing torment? I would describe such a belief as unhinged and aggressive.

And contrary to your assumption, I'm not unfairly biased against Christianity: I'm sure there are many other religions with similarly objectionable attitudes towards non-believers, but I've never been proselytized by anyone who was not a Christian. Notice that there are no Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or Zoroastrians on this forum telling me about how I'm going to hell. If there were, I can assure you that they would be promptly rebutted.
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craiglepaige

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #470 on: June 20, 2017, 12:56:52 PM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.


Okay so if the key to heaven is to accept the sacrifice by Jesus of Nazareth, then let's say the people who WERE involved in the Holocaust, the Rwanda genocide and other such horrific acts were to ask to be forgiven by God and truly accept Jesus as their savior, would they be then accepted into heaven? 

But on the other hand I wouldn't although I have never been involved in anything remotely closed to such horror, nor I have ever wished bad on anyone. How is that even remotely fair? 

Now the answer to my fairness question has been answered before as, "God acts in mysterious ways."  Well to me that's an easy cop out. 

If we are not on Earth to try our hardest to be good to others, what are we here for?
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #471 on: June 20, 2017, 01:08:59 PM »
Good is not good enough because God demands perfect.  Only perfect is accepted, and that only happens with Jesus.  God only accepts Jesus, that is why you can't go directly to God.

Being calvinistic we believe the atonement was particular and limited to only those who become saved. 

craiglepaige

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #472 on: June 20, 2017, 01:20:50 PM »
Good is not good enough because God demands perfect.  Only perfect is accepted, and that only happens with Jesus.  God only accepts Jesus, that is why you can't go directly to God.

Being calvinistic we believe the atonement was particular and limited to only those who become saved.

Jim, so what exactly happens to those like me, people who do good onto others without expecting the same in return. Do we just burn in hell?  Ahhh, I don't know man, sound kind of harsh.
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tyort1

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #473 on: June 20, 2017, 01:52:27 PM »
My authority on this subject comes from god.
Universal salvation is a lie from the wicked one.

Selective salvation is a lie from the wicked one.
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stimepy

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #474 on: June 20, 2017, 01:53:03 PM »
I do find this all very entertaining, and there are some good points in a few posts (for both sides of the argument).

J Boogie, as someone whom as also struggled with the bible and it numerous contradictions, I think the path you are choosing is appropriate and I wish you the best of luck.

Good is not good enough because God demands perfect.  Only perfect is accepted, and that only happens with Jesus.  God only accepts Jesus, that is why you can't go directly to God.

Perfect hmm.... The world is roughly 7.5 Billion people and the Christian population (of which most of them are probably condemned depending on which flavor of Christian you have) is roughly 2.2 billion.     Using some back of the napkin calculations and assuming contact/conflict between Christians and others means we have about 4.5-5 billion people who will never hear of Christ (Or the Christian version anyway as Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet).  I think we are missing the perfect part of the equation.

With that being said which is more likely the evil God/Spirit/Devil/etc.  One whom says "Hey if you happen to hear of me in the right way you go to Heaven" or one like tyort1's whom will accept everyone? 
The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. - Walter Bagehot

Vindicated

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #475 on: June 20, 2017, 01:56:13 PM »
Good is not good enough because God demands perfect.  Only perfect is accepted, and that only happens with Jesus.  God only accepts Jesus, that is why you can't go directly to God.

Holy Trinity, God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Therefore God is Jesus.  So God only accepts himself.  So, you must go to Jesus to be "perfect", but that's not going to God, because you're going to Jesus... who is God...  So, you go to God directly, since God is Jesus.

Got it!
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #476 on: June 20, 2017, 02:06:03 PM »
I do find this all very entertaining, and there are some good points in a few posts (for both sides of the argument).

J Boogie, as someone whom as also struggled with the bible and it numerous contradictions, I think the path you are choosing is appropriate and I wish you the best of luck.

Good is not good enough because God demands perfect.  Only perfect is accepted, and that only happens with Jesus.  God only accepts Jesus, that is why you can't go directly to God.

Perfect hmm.... The world is roughly 7.5 Billion people and the Christian population (of which most of them are probably condemned depending on which flavor of Christian you have) is roughly 2.2 billion.     Using some back of the napkin calculations and assuming contact/conflict between Christians and others means we have about 4.5-5 billion people who will never hear of Christ (Or the Christian version anyway as Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet).  I think we are missing the perfect part of the equation.

With that being said which is more likely the evil God/Spirit/Devil/etc.  One whom says "Hey if you happen to hear of me in the right way you go to Heaven" or one like tyort1's whom will accept everyone?
I can only go by what it says no matter how crazy it may sound to most people.  God is in charge and this is the way it is laid out.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #477 on: June 20, 2017, 02:07:19 PM »
Good is not good enough because God demands perfect.  Only perfect is accepted, and that only happens with Jesus.  God only accepts Jesus, that is why you can't go directly to God.

Holy Trinity, God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Therefore God is Jesus.  So God only accepts himself.  So, you must go to Jesus to be "perfect", but that's not going to God, because you're going to Jesus... who is God...  So, you go to God directly, since God is Jesus.

Got it!
I do hold to the Triune Godhead.  The point is you need a mediator.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #478 on: June 20, 2017, 02:08:23 PM »
My authority on this subject comes from god.
Universal salvation is a lie from the wicked one.

Selective salvation is a lie from the wicked one.
Where in the Bible does it say everyone gets saved?  Nowhere!

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #479 on: June 20, 2017, 02:12:24 PM »
Good is not good enough because God demands perfect.  Only perfect is accepted, and that only happens with Jesus.  God only accepts Jesus, that is why you can't go directly to God.

Being calvinistic we believe the atonement was particular and limited to only those who become saved.

Jim, so what exactly happens to those like me, people who do good onto others without expecting the same in return. Do we just burn in hell?  Ahhh, I don't know man, sound kind of harsh.
Those who don't have the faith (on their last breath) are not saved and go to hell.  Faith is the evidence of the salvation, in time the election of grace will come to believe the faith.  Faith is not the cause, grace is the cause.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #480 on: June 20, 2017, 02:18:44 PM »
Where in the Bible does it say everyone gets saved?  Nowhere!

It really seems to me like those quotes J Boogie shared from Matthew suggested that everyone could be saved, as long as they lived as Jesus lived.  However, that interpretation wouldn't keep people coming to church and tithing, so priests would surely push the more profitable interpretation.
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #481 on: June 20, 2017, 02:23:28 PM »
Where in the Bible does it say everyone gets saved?  Nowhere!

It really seems to me like those quotes J Boogie shared from Matthew suggested that everyone could be saved, as long as they lived as Jesus lived.  However, that interpretation wouldn't keep people coming to church and tithing, so priests would surely push the more profitable interpretation.
I am refuting tyrot1's universal salvation assertion.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #482 on: June 20, 2017, 02:24:36 PM »
Where in the Bible does it say everyone gets saved?  Nowhere!

It really seems to me like those quotes J Boogie shared from Matthew suggested that everyone could be saved, as long as they lived as Jesus lived.  However, that interpretation wouldn't keep people coming to church and tithing, so priests would surely push the more profitable interpretation.
I am refuting tyrot1's universal salvation assertion.

So, where do you stand on the interpretation of those passages from Matthew? 
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #483 on: June 20, 2017, 02:58:59 PM »
So, where do you stand on the interpretation of those passages from Matthew?
Good deeds are the fruits of salvation, not the merit that gets one saved.  Only sinners get saved.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #484 on: June 20, 2017, 03:01:53 PM »
Where in the Bible does it say everyone gets saved?  Nowhere!

It really seems to me like those quotes J Boogie shared from Matthew suggested that everyone could be saved, as long as they lived as Jesus lived.  However, that interpretation wouldn't keep people coming to church and tithing, so priests would surely push the more profitable interpretation.
I am refuting tyrot1's universal salvation assertion.

In tyrot1's religion (he has discussed it earlier in the thread), there is universal salvation, even for people with no faith. 

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #485 on: June 20, 2017, 03:06:48 PM »
So, where do you stand on the interpretation of those passages from Matthew?
Good deeds are the fruits of salvation, not the merit that gets one saved.  Only sinners get saved.

I feel like you're intentionally being mysterious with your answers.

What does that even mean?  "Good deeds are the fruits of salvation."  Assume I'm a young child and explain it.

Also, "Only sinners get saved", but aren't we ALL sinners?  Since we're imperfect?  If not, who is a sinner?  Are you a sinner?  Is a non-believer a sinner?

----

Jesus separates the people from all nations into two categories.  Sheep & Goats.  Do you believe that only followers of Christ will be the Sheep?  Or are the Sheep "Good people"?  If followers of Christ are the Sheep, are there any followers of Christ in the Goat group?  Ones that did bad deeds? 

So, Sheep = Followers who are good, Goat = Non-Followers & Followers who are bad?
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #486 on: June 20, 2017, 03:22:27 PM »
So, where do you stand on the interpretation of those passages from Matthew?
Good deeds are the fruits of salvation, not the merit that gets one saved.  Only sinners get saved.

I feel like you're intentionally being mysterious with your answers.

What does that even mean?  "Good deeds are the fruits of salvation."  Assume I'm a young child and explain it.

Also, "Only sinners get saved", but aren't we ALL sinners?  Since we're imperfect?  If not, who is a sinner?  Are you a sinner?  Is a non-believer a sinner?

----

Jesus separates the people from all nations into two categories.  Sheep & Goats.  Do you believe that only followers of Christ will be the Sheep?  Or are the Sheep "Good people"?  If followers of Christ are the Sheep, are there any followers of Christ in the Goat group?  Ones that did bad deeds? 

So, Sheep = Followers who are good, Goat = Non-Followers & Followers who are bad?
I am countering the idea that good deeds help to get one saved.  That being said a saved person does have changed behaviour and deeds are seen as a result.
Someone can claim to be saved, yet has no evidences of it, and most likely they are not saved.  However it says salvation is eternal so it can't be lost.  It is not that some people lost salvation, it is that they never had it to begin with.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #487 on: June 20, 2017, 03:37:25 PM »
So, where do you stand on the interpretation of those passages from Matthew?
Good deeds are the fruits of salvation, not the merit that gets one saved.  Only sinners get saved.

I feel like you're intentionally being mysterious with your answers.

What does that even mean?  "Good deeds are the fruits of salvation."  Assume I'm a young child and explain it.

Also, "Only sinners get saved", but aren't we ALL sinners?  Since we're imperfect?  If not, who is a sinner?  Are you a sinner?  Is a non-believer a sinner?

----

Jesus separates the people from all nations into two categories.  Sheep & Goats.  Do you believe that only followers of Christ will be the Sheep?  Or are the Sheep "Good people"?  If followers of Christ are the Sheep, are there any followers of Christ in the Goat group?  Ones that did bad deeds? 

So, Sheep = Followers who are good, Goat = Non-Followers & Followers who are bad?
I am countering the idea that good deeds help to get one saved.  That being said a saved person does have changed behaviour and deeds are seen as a result.
Someone can claim to be saved, yet has no evidences of it, and most likely they are not saved.  However it says salvation is eternal so it can't be lost.  It is not that some people lost salvation, it is that they never had it to begin with.

As a Christian, why would you counter Jesus's idea?



Also, how can you consider good deeds as evidence of having been saved when so many people who are not saved (the who profess another/no faith) do good deeds?

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #488 on: June 20, 2017, 03:42:54 PM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).

I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

I wouldn't say everybody. But in the case of people in the U.S., the fact that there are so many Republican legislators trying to legislate their own Christian beliefs on the entire populace might have a little to do with it.

You'll find more than a few Dems thumping the Bible pretty hard, too.  They may not be quite as zealous as the GOP about beating us over the head with their religion, but they'll often do little or nothing to try and prevent other politicians from pushing religious views upon the populace.

FWIW, I don't become unhinged about religion, but I find religion, all of them, to be utterly ridiculous.  To quibble about whether one religion is better than another (or even one sect vs another within a religion) is the height of absurdity.

libertarian4321

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #489 on: June 20, 2017, 03:57:47 PM »
I personally think if you discount Christianity, call it FSM or whatever, then you are missing out on a lot of great stories and lessons. They don't have to be taken literally, but there is still something there.

Are you mocking my beliefs?

The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as believable, and just as legitimate as any other religion, and it has some great stories, too!

Sure, the Church of the FSM has only been around for a short time.  But consider this: would it have been right for those who believed in Zeus to mock Christians 2000 years ago?  Would the fact that Christianity was new, and the Roman pagan Gods old, made Christ any less legitimate?  By the same token, the newness of the Church of the FSM does not make it less legitimate than Christianity, or the Roman Pagan religion, for that matter.

I will say it again, all religions are equally valid and equally true!

FWIW, many of us in the Church of the FSM ARE Christians.  We fully believe that Jesus was the son of the FSM, as stated in John 3:16:

For the FSM so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, Jesus Christ, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Praise Jesus, Praise the FSM!


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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #490 on: June 20, 2017, 04:05:21 PM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).

I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

I wouldn't say everybody. But in the case of people in the U.S., the fact that there are so many Republican legislators trying to legislate their own Christian beliefs on the entire populace might have a little to do with it.

You'll find more than a few Dems thumping the Bible pretty hard, too.  They may not be quite as zealous as the GOP about beating us over the head with their religion, but they'll often do little or nothing to try and prevent other politicians from pushing religious views upon the populace.

FWIW, I don't become unhinged about religion, but I find religion, all of them, to be utterly ridiculous.  To quibble about whether one religion is better than another (or even one sect vs another within a religion) is the height of absurdity.

Can you give me examples of Democrats trying to push their religious beliefs into legislation?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #491 on: June 20, 2017, 04:52:52 PM »
My authority on this subject comes from god.
Universal salvation is a lie from the wicked one.

Selective salvation is a lie from the wicked one.
Where in the Bible does it say everyone gets saved?  Nowhere!

My authority comes from god.  All you have is corrupted and dead writings in a book. 
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #492 on: June 20, 2017, 05:57:33 PM »
My authority comes from god.  All you have is corrupted and dead writings in a book.
Umm, ok.

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #493 on: June 20, 2017, 07:22:00 PM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).

I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?

That bolded question is a really good question.  My guess as a hinged (?) non-Christian is that's it's a result of several factors:
1. The evangelizing part of Christianity.  Aggressive evangelization can make people feel resistant.
2. The hell factor.  Threats of hell up the emotional ante IMHO. 
3. Cultural dominance.  I grew up in the Bible Belt, Christians had vast numerical majority.  Sure, there are others, but it's still easy for a non-Christian in much of America to feel outnumbered.  Could increase the perceived need to sound aggressive.
4. Exclusivity.  Unlike Buddhism or FSM or such, Christians usually feel that some specific thing has to happen for the person to be ok/saved/etc.  So the discussion is difficult to end with satisfaction on both sides.  From experience, the non-Christian can accumulate a lot of frustration.  I'm very appreciative of Christians, but I can see how the frustration could appear later as aggression.
5. Secular state.  We have room to discuss.  Therefore people whose psyche has an argumentative feeling lurking within are free to transfer that feeling into religion.

In combination, these things could leave someone in a sort of hair trigger state, ready to boil into anger given the opportunity. 

Fwiw, I think there are fewer such discussions than at many other times and places.  Which reminds me of a friend of mine.  One time he was renting a room in my house and his visiting girlfriend was screaming at him.  Later I asked how he could stay so calm.  "She's never had a safe place to yell before," he replied.  "She's not always like that.  I think she'll work through it."  IIRC, she more or less did.  Perhaps some these incidents that look like unprovoked aggression at the incident level are part of a broader process of releasing the steam from the system, reducing the pressure over time.  (If we turn the other cheek in response, so to speak.)

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #494 on: June 20, 2017, 08:06:35 PM »
My authority comes from god.  All you have is corrupted and dead writings in a book.
Umm, ok.

That's pretty much how I feel about your beliefs, too.
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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #495 on: June 20, 2017, 08:09:30 PM »
DoubleDown,

Do you have comments about the passages from Matthew that J Boogie shared?  Reading those, it seems that Jesus was stating that the belief in him is not what's required, it's your actions of following his teachings that gains your acceptance.

Specifically this part:

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they answered.

(Matthew 21)

To me it is glaringly obvious that Jesus intended his followers to believe that their behavior would determine whether or not they went to heaven. 


Yeah, I think Jesus is clear on the matter. Your belief and your works go together, but specifically it's grace/faith that gets you to heaven. It goes in this order:

1. The only way to the kingdom of heaven with God is through Jesus Christ ("I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me", etc.)

2. If you are a follower of Christ, you will be a good person ("Love others as yourself"). Not perfect, just loving and serving others as best you can.

#2 follows necessarily from #1, because if you claim Christ as your savior then you follow what he says. And he said to be a good person. So technically only #1 is required to be saved, but #2 will automatically follow #1. You can't be a true follower of Christ and be evil. All those passages @J Boogie quoted are alluding to this. So yes, you must be a good person to go to heaven in the sense that if you're not, your professed "faith" was probably phony all along. Jesus made it clear that if you believe in him and what he is saying, you must follow his example. You can't just call him "Lord" and then continue along being evil and go to heaven.

We all know #1 does not necessarily follow from #2. So, you can be good without following Christ. But from the Christian perspective, you can't get to heaven only by being good.

It's a bit like the MMM message. It would be phony if I said, "I'm a follower of MMM. That's why I have a credit card balance of $75k, a negative net worth, I drive a Ford F150 one mile to work, and every month I spend more than I earn!" And most of us don't begrudge MMM from setting certain rules about being here in his forum. I don't see any problem with God setting some rules for going to his place. It doesn't make him an a-hole, it means he literally needs a level of purity to be in his presence.
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MrDelane

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #496 on: June 20, 2017, 10:03:53 PM »
My authority comes from god.  All you have is corrupted and dead writings in a book.
Umm, ok.

Jim - I realize this sounds like nonsense to you.  But to those of us on the outside, we see two people who both claim to have true revelations from God.  Given that revelation is necessarily hearsay to everyone else, how do you suggest we figure out which one of your beliefs may be true? 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 10:07:15 PM by MrDelane »

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #497 on: June 21, 2017, 06:24:37 AM »
I don't see any problem with God setting some rules for going to his place. It doesn't make him an a-hole, it means he literally needs a level of purity to be in his presence.

If I may inquire: what are your beliefs regarding hell?

I don't necessarily have a problem with the over-arching thesis of Arminian Christianity that you've described: Jesus died for all people, and those who accept him as their savior will live with him in paradise after death. What I find appalling is the flip side of that coin: the alternative to paradise is hell, the lake of fire, eternal torment, etc. Jesus loves you, but you will suffer in agonizing perpetuity if you don't follow him. Couldn't the unfaithful simply, you know, not exist after death? What is it about good people who don't follow Christ that earns them hell?
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jim555

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #498 on: June 21, 2017, 06:25:36 AM »
My authority comes from god.  All you have is corrupted and dead writings in a book.
Umm, ok.

Jim - I realize this sounds like nonsense to you.  But to those of us on the outside, we see two people who both claim to have true revelations from God.  Given that revelation is necessarily hearsay to everyone else, how do you suggest we figure out which one of your beliefs may be true?
I don't worry about it.  It is given for some to find the truth and others to stay lost.

Vindicated

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Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #499 on: June 21, 2017, 06:50:50 AM »
It's a bit like the MMM message. It would be phony if I said, "I'm a follower of MMM. That's why I have a credit card balance of $75k, a negative net worth, I drive a Ford F150 one mile to work, and every month I spend more than I earn!" And most of us don't begrudge MMM from setting certain rules about being here in his forum. I don't see any problem with God setting some rules for going to his place. It doesn't make him an a-hole, it means he literally needs a level of purity to be in his presence.

I'll preface this by saying, I know this isn't the point you were making by bringing MMM to the conversation.  It just made me think of this example:

This is a good thought experiment.

As a follower of MMM, the goal is to reach FI by living a happy simple life.  To get to FI, and to lead a happy and simple life, do you have to accept MMM as your blog of choice?  Of course not.  You just have to live similarly to MMM, even if you have no idea who he is.  A person can go through their entire lives, never heard of MMM, but still retire by 30.  Heck, Pete did it himself!

So, to get to Heaven, you need to follow the guidelines set forth by Jesus.  You presume this is by accepting Jesus as your God.  You also presume that by accepting Jesus, you do good deeds.  However, what if I understand it as: by doing good deeds, you follow Jesus' guidelines, thus you are accepted by Jesus even if you've never heard of him!?  This makes so much more sense, since much of the world's population will never even hear of Jesus.
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

"Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” - Dalai Lama