Author Topic: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.  (Read 41731 times)

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #400 on: June 07, 2017, 07:38:33 PM »
I went in the opposite direction.  Raised with no religion, staunch agnostic/atheist until 35.  Brought into conviction of my undone condition and converted.  That was 17 years ago.  Sovereign grace, 5 point TULIPer now.  Not in a million years would I say that would ever happen.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #401 on: June 07, 2017, 08:10:29 PM »
Rant mode on -
Man has no "free will".  That was lost in the Fall.  Man is totally depraved, blind and dead to his own lost condition.  Lost to lostness.  Only once you have been found do you realize you where lost.  This "free will" gospel is a pile of dung with no basis in scripture.  Universal salvation has no basis in scripture.  Catholicism has no basis in scripture.  God loves everyone has no basis in scripture.  Man has no merit to get himself right with God.  If you come thinking your faith saves you, or your good acts saves you, you are not saved.  Faith is the evidence of becoming saved, not the cause.  Faith, repentance, good works all flow down from grace.  Jesus satisfied the law on behalf of the elect, and in time they are made believers, given the Holy Spirit and made a new creation.  If you don't know if you are saved, you are not saved.  No way are you made a new creation and not know it.  - end of rant

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #402 on: June 07, 2017, 08:32:40 PM »
Man has no "free will".

What, literally, is the point, then?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #403 on: June 07, 2017, 08:44:09 PM »
That God's glory be revealed, in love and righteousness.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 08:46:56 PM by jim555 »

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #404 on: June 07, 2017, 08:47:53 PM »
That God's glory be revealed, in love and righteousness.

But man has no capacity to choose.

Uh huh.

Sounds like a lotta glory, right there.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #405 on: June 07, 2017, 08:53:43 PM »
The bound condition was overcome by Jesus fulfilling every jot and tittle of the law.  Every blessing can flow down to the elect as a result, including becoming unbound from the former condition of slavery.  A new nature results.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #406 on: June 07, 2017, 08:57:48 PM »
The bound condition was overcome by Jesus fulfilling every jot and tittle of the law.  Every blessing can flow down to the elect as a result, including becoming unbound from the former condition of slavery.  A new nature results.

Quite honestly, this just sounds like an enormous amount of nonsense.

" If you don't know if you are saved, you are not saved.  No way are you made a new creation and not know it."

So, he chose you and not me to tell? Well, then, he seems like kind of an a-hole.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #407 on: June 07, 2017, 09:04:18 PM »
The bound condition was overcome by Jesus fulfilling every jot and tittle of the law.  Every blessing can flow down to the elect as a result, including becoming unbound from the former condition of slavery.  A new nature results.

Quite honestly, this just sounds like an enormous amount of nonsense.

" If you don't know if you are saved, you are not saved.  No way are you made a new creation and not know it."

So, he chose you and not me to tell? Well, then, he seems like kind of an a-hole.
Remember the unsaved get what they deserve, the saved get what they don't deserve, mercy.  If God saved no one on earth it would still be just.

Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #408 on: June 07, 2017, 09:10:14 PM »
The bound condition was overcome by Jesus fulfilling every jot and tittle of the law.  Every blessing can flow down to the elect as a result, including becoming unbound from the former condition of slavery.  A new nature results.

Quite honestly, this just sounds like an enormous amount of nonsense.

" If you don't know if you are saved, you are not saved.  No way are you made a new creation and not know it."

So, he chose you and not me to tell? Well, then, he seems like kind of an a-hole.
Remember the unsaved get what they deserve, the saved get what they don't deserve, mercy.  If God saved no one on earth it would still be just.

Okay. Whatever.

I guess it's a little bit like I'm administering palliative chemo to you. If it makes you feel better, and it helps you slip into a place that's comfortable for you, I'm totally fine with helping you out.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 09:15:55 PM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #409 on: June 07, 2017, 09:20:11 PM »
Okay. Whatever.

I guess it's a little bit like I'm administering palliative chemo to you. If it makes you feel better, and it helps you slip into a place that's comfortable for you, I'm totally fine with helping you out.
Don't get what you are saying there.

tyort1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #410 on: June 07, 2017, 09:29:24 PM »
I won't debate the merits of Calvinism, but I am curious Jim - what happened to move you away from atheism?  And more specifically what moved you toward Calvinism?
Frugalite in training.

MrDelane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #411 on: June 07, 2017, 09:43:26 PM »
In fact, if the crucifixion of Jesus was proven false that would actually have a bigger impact no my belief than showing life could begin spontaneously.  It seems very unlikely given the mountain of evidence that already exists to show it did happen, but something like that with a direct disproof of something very clearly stated in the Bible, not inferred by context or larger exegesis would be devastating.

That makes complete sense.
But to be clear, there is not a 'mountain of evidence' for the crucifixion.
Unless of course we have different definitions of 'mountain.'

But given you don't feel there is enough evidence to consider evolution a viable scientific theory, the idea that there is a 'mountain of evidence' for the crucifixion is a bit ... surprising.

MrDelane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #412 on: June 07, 2017, 09:51:00 PM »
Remember the unsaved get what they deserve, the saved get what they don't deserve, mercy.  If God saved no one on earth it would still be just.

It legitimately terrifies me that people sincerely believe things like this.

As Victor Stenger said, "Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #413 on: June 07, 2017, 09:55:37 PM »
My co-workers kept telling me to look into Christianity.  They knew I regarded them as deluded fools.  But I figured I would give it an honest examination.  I would try to read the Bible but it made no sense to me.  This went on for many months.  Then I said I will try to follow what it was saying.  I told my co-workers and they are saying great you are now saved!  (I wasn't)  So I tried and tried to follow and read it.  Still made no sense.  Co-workers were no help.  As time went on the more I tried to be "good" the more it became obvious I was not good at all.  And it became worse and worse.  I didn't know what was happening.  My center was no good, and I couldn't do anything about it.  Hopeless and undone.  And once that happened I "got it".  The Bible made sense from that point on.  I knew I was saved.  I told my co-workers and they couldn't relate.  They didn't get what I was saying.  I can only conclude that they are not saved, and they have gone to church for years!

I didn't even know what Calvinism was and just arrived at the doctrines by study.  This was over months of reading it over and over.  Then I discovered the reformed confessions and discovered I agreed with most of the doctrines in them.


tyort1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #414 on: June 07, 2017, 10:09:01 PM »
My co-workers kept telling me to look into Christianity.  They knew I regarded them as deluded fools.  But I figured I would give it an honest examination.  I would try to read the Bible but it made no sense to me.  This went on for many months.  Then I said I will try to follow what it was saying.  I told my co-workers and they are saying great you are now saved!  (I wasn't)  So I tried and tried to follow and read it.  Still made no sense.  Co-workers were no help.  As time went on the more I tried to be "good" the more it became obvious I was not good at all.  And it became worse and worse.  I didn't know what was happening.  My center was no good, and I couldn't do anything about it.  Hopeless and undone.  And once that happened I "got it".  The Bible made sense from that point on.  I knew I was saved.  I told my co-workers and they couldn't relate.  They didn't get what I was saying.  I can only conclude that they are not saved, and they have gone to church for years!

I didn't even know what Calvinism was and just arrived at the doctrines by study.  This was over months of reading it over and over.  Then I discovered the reformed confessions and discovered I agreed with most of the doctrines in them.

I'm even more curious about when you tried to be good and couldn't and you realized that your core was no good.  Can you elaborate on that?  Obviously that was a while ago for you, but I'd be grateful for any details you have.
Frugalite in training.

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #415 on: June 07, 2017, 10:21:32 PM »
I didn't know it at the time but they say it is the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin.  Only then can one give up on being justified by works.   The realization that your own righteousness can't help you, and then the perfect righteousness of Jesus becomes known.  Perfect righteousness is required, nothing less, and only Jesus has it.

caracarn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 564
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #416 on: June 08, 2017, 06:42:44 AM »
You do see this type of tension between science and faith play out throughout semi-recent history.  People did it with evolution and the idea that god created separate animal classes.  Eventually the evidence for evolution became overwhelming, so people switch to "Well, evolution is the MECHANISM that god put in place to cause all those animals to be created". 

They'll do the same with abiogenesis.  "Well, abiogenesis is merely the mechanism that god used to start all life". 

Same thing happened when it was discovered that the Earth was not the center of the universe, and it'll happen again when we eventually discover alien life. 

Because if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then nothing that science discovers (or ever CAN discover) will be able to shake that belief.  The believer merely adjusts their belief system to account for the new facts, but the core beliefs never change. 

I suspect that eventually science will have explained enough that people of faith won't even attempt to justify their beliefs via logic, and just say the equivalent of "I have faith, that is all".  Honestly I'm sort of at that point myself right now.  I believe because of some totally subjective experiences I've had that don't fit neatly into the scientific world view, and I'm OK with that.
The thing is this belief that science and God are somehow at odds, is a man made fiction.  That's my point of saying that if things arise that contradict clearly stated items in the Bible you have a conflict.  Heliocentricity is not in the Bible, so indicating that "same thing happened when it was discovered that the Earth was not the center" makes no sense to me.  For some people with flawed doctrine they had to adjust their beliefs but that does not indict the doctrine because those looking at it understood something that was not there.  Similarly I see no contradiction in evolution, I see it as a clarification, but the "tension" exists in what is claimed at time frames by science can come into conflict with a literal timeline of the Scripture which appears to indicate a much shorter time frame than billions of years.  A skeptics argument I have seen often is if you take all the animal varieties and try to fit pairs of them on the ark there physically is not the space.  Until evidence of evolution in species was shown this seemed to present an argument that had no answer.  Once that evidence was there is provided a clearer explanation of single "kinds" as the Bible says were present and then using that mechanism all the varieties developed from each single kind.  The tension today is that our current understanding of carbon dating and other methods leads us to believe billions of years and adherents to thousands of years has become the new argument that has no answer.  I have seen both time scales laid out across interpretation of Biblical passages as it is not clear, and both sides try to make their case (short earthers by discussing how we may eventually find our dating methods to be incorrect).  This is one area that I've not settled on a response yet, and may not know the answer to until the end. 

So this description is all to point to the fact that I do not see a march inexorably to "the more science shows the less faith one can have", because that is only true if what science shows directly refutes anything that is stated in Scripture.  If one fell on the side of the "Bible is fake news" bunch you would certainly point to the fact that there is little outside of physical locations and events that can be scientifically contradicted in the Bible.  Unlike the Quran, which explains cell division in a way that science has proven false for example, the Bible has zero detailed passages like this that walk us through scientific processes that we have understood (people seem to like to use the term "discovered").  This bunch would argue what a convenient fact is is that the Bible is so vague to all these issues that it can be read multiple ways.  As someone who has no issue reconciling my faith with the fact science is only helping to clarify issues of that faith, I do not have that, what in my opinion, is fake hangup.  As I've said before the Bible is about salvation and "living expectations", i.e. how does one behave more like Christ.  It is not a manual of how the natural world works.  It does not say everything revolves around the Earth.  It does not say every creature was created and is unchangeable and cannot mutate to its environment.  It also does not say that the Sun is the center of the solar system or that once the animals left the ark that God allowed the process of evolution built into the design to function and provide more variety.  This perceived vagueness is what allows for tension, but it does not create it.  Man is our inevitable quest to "know" creates it because many of us feel, I don't know, dumb? stupid? inferior? less than human? if we cannot find and scientific answer to everything.   Some of us are more comfortable with "we don't understand YET" and just wait for science to give us another pointer to focus the microscope, telescope or whatever your lens of choice is down to a finer level of granularity and be able to add more refinement to our understanding of how brilliant and intricate and complex God's creation really is. 

I thought when I attempted to provide a cogent answer to your query that led here, that I was being abundantly clear that scientific discoveries only helps to strengthen my faith in God MORE and that if there were discoveries that were contradictions then logically that would weaken my faith, possibly to the tipping point of losing faith entirely.  I certainly have talked with others if they felt there was something (and usually it is evolution, which I do not dispute and which I believe just more clearly explains how certain events in the Bible were possible in a more compelling way) and explained how I feel that reinforces Scripture, where applicable.  The vast majority of scientific discovery has zero applicability to understanding the Bible more.  Knowing how to build a working laser is not something that helps me understand the Bible more clearly.  As I've said, many discoveries, such as the human genome and all the biological functions of our and other living organisms bodies just serve the purpose of amazing me with the genius of the design, but obviously do nothing to give me more faith in the Red Sea parting.

It is an indisputable fact the improper interpretation then preached repeatedly and falsely from the pulpit only serves to reinforce the belief you are driving at that people can be led to believe something that they then have to change to align with science.  This then gets used by people who want to erode believers' confidence in the authority of scripture because of these man made contradictions.  This is where it is important to look and see if the Bible REALLY says the Earth is the center (it does not), and be open to condemn the preacher and not take the unsupported step of expanding that to condemn the writing which does not state anything of the kind.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 06:47:49 AM by caracarn »

J Boogie

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #417 on: June 08, 2017, 07:13:03 AM »
As time went on the more I tried to be "good" the more it became obvious I was not good at all.  And it became worse and worse.  I didn't know what was happening.  My center was no good, and I couldn't do anything about it.  Hopeless and undone.  And once that happened I "got it".  The Bible made sense from that point on.  I knew I was saved.

This is one of the things that I find VERY concerning with most religions.

They are accepted most easily among those who are at vulnerable state - those who have hit rock bottom and/or believe themselves to be inadequate.

Religious groups know this, so they often focus on people who are likely to be in this condition - ie prison ministry.

The problem I have with this is that it assumes we are right when we believe ourselves to be worthless (without X) and wrong/deluded when we believe ourselves to be happy and healthy.  Many of the more dramatic conversion stories you'll hear will involve people who have been living unhealthy lifestyles (drugs, parties, promiscuity etc).  But what about the millions of people who aren't religious who live happy, healthy, virtuous lifestyles?  How are these people supposed to know about this gaping hole in their lives that only X can fill?  Should we feel bad for these people that they will never be humbled enough to admit their desperate need for X?

I can't help but feel religion has less to do with truth and more to do with personality type.  I'm genuinely happy for those who have found a more fulfilling life by practicing religion, but at the same time I can't help but wonder using religion in this way might actually make their mental health worse in the long run. 

I happen to know the sibling of a friend who has a mental illness which is very much related to his family's extreme religious practices.  However their religious practices are of course seen as the answer to the problem so it's kind of a vicious cycle. 




MrDelane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #418 on: June 08, 2017, 07:29:06 AM »
I can't help but wonder using religion in this way might actually make their mental health worse in the long run.

Looks like it all depends on the specifics of the religion in question.

Studies have found a positive correlation between belief in a "punitive God" and anxiety, paranoia, compulsion and obsession.

However, other studies have found an inverse correlation between religiosity and depression (those, however, did not distinguish between punitive and benevolent Gods).

It's a fascinating topic, but one that is very difficult to study given the vast array of beliefs people have as well as the range of sincerity in which those beliefs are held.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 07:30:51 AM by MrDelane »

tyort1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #419 on: June 08, 2017, 10:55:52 AM »
The thing is this belief that science and God are somehow at odds, is a man made fiction. 

This was kind of my point.  If one starts with the idea that the bible as true, then nothing in science can contradict it.  Because to the person that is a believer in the bible is always able to say "Well science merely re-enforces my pre-existing faith", which is pretty much what you have posted above.  Sorry my original post wasn't clear on that point. 
Frugalite in training.

tyort1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #420 on: June 08, 2017, 10:57:21 AM »
I didn't know it at the time but they say it is the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin.  Only then can one give up on being justified by works.   The realization that your own righteousness can't help you, and then the perfect righteousness of Jesus becomes known.  Perfect righteousness is required, nothing less, and only Jesus has it.

I was hoping for something more specific.  What about you (at that time) was rotten to the core?  What good things did you try to do?  In what ways did you fail at being good?
Frugalite in training.

bender

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 765
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #421 on: June 08, 2017, 11:29:37 AM »
As time went on the more I tried to be "good" the more it became obvious I was not good at all.  And it became worse and worse.  I didn't know what was happening.  My center was no good, and I couldn't do anything about it.  Hopeless and undone.  And once that happened I "got it".  The Bible made sense from that point on.  I knew I was saved.

This is one of the things that I find VERY concerning with most religions.

They are accepted most easily among those who are at vulnerable state - those who have hit rock bottom and/or believe themselves to be inadequate.

Religious groups know this, so they often focus on people who are likely to be in this condition - ie prison ministry.

The problem I have with this is that it assumes we are right when we believe ourselves to be worthless (without X) and wrong/deluded when we believe ourselves to be happy and healthy.  Many of the more dramatic conversion stories you'll hear will involve people who have been living unhealthy lifestyles (drugs, parties, promiscuity etc).  But what about the millions of people who aren't religious who live happy, healthy, virtuous lifestyles?  How are these people supposed to know about this gaping hole in their lives that only X can fill?  Should we feel bad for these people that they will never be humbled enough to admit their desperate need for X?

I can't help but feel religion has less to do with truth and more to do with personality type.  I'm genuinely happy for those who have found a more fulfilling life by practicing religion, but at the same time I can't help but wonder using religion in this way might actually make their mental health worse in the long run. 

I happen to know the sibling of a friend who has a mental illness which is very much related to his family's extreme religious practices.  However their religious practices are of course seen as the answer to the problem so it's kind of a vicious cycle.

That's how groups like AA work, right?  From what I hear, you have to submit yourself to God and admit only He can help you (because you're useless to help yourself of course).  Then you get better and it's because of God.  I guess that may work for certain personalities.  I wonder how any agnostic/atheist have raised themselves out of addiction without divine intervention?


tyort1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1438
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #422 on: June 08, 2017, 12:08:14 PM »
That's how groups like AA work, right?  From what I hear, you have to submit yourself to God and admit only He can help you (because you're useless to help yourself of course).  Then you get better and it's because of God.  I guess that may work for certain personalities.  I wonder how any agnostic/atheist have raised themselves out of addiction without divine intervention?

I'm an alcoholic and I use Lifering which is very much science based and personal responsibility oriented.  I also have friends that use SMART recovery which is similar but more tool based. 
Frugalite in training.

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1057
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #423 on: June 08, 2017, 02:49:44 PM »
That's how groups like AA work, right?  From what I hear, you have to submit yourself to God and admit only He can help you (because you're useless to help yourself of course).  Then you get better and it's because of God.  I guess that may work for certain personalities.  I wonder how any agnostic/atheist have raised themselves out of addiction without divine intervention?

I'm an alcoholic and I use Lifering which is very much science based and personal responsibility oriented.  I also have friends that use SMART recovery which is similar but more tool based.

I know one particular AA member who has really struggled to get much 'use' out of it because of he's nonreligious and extremely control-oriented.  The fundamental concepts of the AA gig don't resonate with him at all; in fact, I think he sometimes feels extra rebellious against that type of program BECAUSE they are so insistent on a higher power. Though I do think he gets value out of the social aspect, which essentially helps with accountability. He's currently sober, for nearly a year, which is only the second period of sobriety since he started treatment 5 or 6 years ago.  But AA hasn't seemed to help him get there...it's more the straightforward legal ramifications of constant substance abuse and family problems that seem to be doing it. I wonder how he'd respond to SMART or Lifering? I don't know much about them, though I'm sure he's brushed up against them in some of his treatment programs...

MrDelane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #424 on: June 08, 2017, 03:10:55 PM »
That's how groups like AA work, right?

AFAIK that's how they are structured.
But with a 5-10% success rate I would stop far short of saying 'work.'


zoltani

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 928
  • Location: PNW
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #425 on: June 14, 2017, 02:52:08 PM »
Don't look to the universe for god, look within yourself. Each one of us is god. Many eastern philosophies know this. Jesus also knew this, but he was taken literally. You are creating your experience, you are the universe and everything in it, that is ultimate responsibility. You grew your own eyes, the most beautiful jewels in the universe. Light does not exist, you evoke light with your own eyes. Surfaces are hard because of your own soft skin. You turn vibrations into sound with your own ears. Theses things exist only because of you, you are experiencing the universe. You are everything.

Life is an on/off experience, we are so scared of the off side of the equation. Since life is an on/off experience, the only way that we know that you are currently in the on position is due to the fact that you have once been off. How do you know you are alive if you've never been dead before? This experience of life is only a flash in time, and science has even proven time doesn't even exist as we experience it. Life is a sort of parlor trick, the idea that you exist, an ego housed in a bag of skin, that you are somehow separate from the external world, the universe.
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

jim555

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1179
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #426 on: June 14, 2017, 08:53:56 PM »
You just made all this up yourself?  Sounds like too many trips to me.  Hippie lies from the bowels of hell.

MrDelane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #427 on: June 14, 2017, 08:58:47 PM »
You just made all this up yourself?  Sounds like too many trips to me.  Hippie lies from the bowels of hell.

The fact that you find zoltani's beliefs crazy is more than a tad ironic.

Vindicated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Indianapolis
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #428 on: June 15, 2017, 06:18:53 AM »
Don't look to the universe for god, look within yourself. Each one of us is god. Many eastern philosophies know this. Jesus also knew this, but he was taken literally. You are creating your experience, you are the universe and everything in it, that is ultimate responsibility. You grew your own eyes, the most beautiful jewels in the universe. Light does not exist, you evoke light with your own eyes. Surfaces are hard because of your own soft skin. You turn vibrations into sound with your own ears. Theses things exist only because of you, you are experiencing the universe. You are everything.

Life is an on/off experience, we are so scared of the off side of the equation. Since life is an on/off experience, the only way that we know that you are currently in the on position is due to the fact that you have once been off. How do you know you are alive if you've never been dead before? This experience of life is only a flash in time, and science has even proven time doesn't even exist as we experience it. Life is a sort of parlor trick, the idea that you exist, an ego housed in a bag of skin, that you are somehow separate from the external world, the universe.

I think this is a beautiful way to look at life.  Thanks for sharing!
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

"Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” - Dalai Lama

wenchsenior

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1057
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #429 on: June 15, 2017, 07:10:51 AM »
You just made all this up yourself?  Sounds like too many trips to me.  Hippie lies from the bowels of hell.

The fact that you find zoltani's beliefs crazy is more than a tad ironic.

:guffaws:  Religious beliefs are endlessly interesting and entertaining.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1909
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #430 on: June 15, 2017, 07:12:39 AM »
You just made all this up yourself?  Sounds like too many trips to me.  Hippie lies from the bowels of hell.

As a Christian, I'm pretty sure I'd be offended if someone said something similar about my beliefs in Christianity.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

bender

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 765
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #431 on: June 15, 2017, 07:34:49 AM »
Interesting and cool philosophy zoltani.

J Boogie

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #432 on: June 15, 2017, 07:58:41 AM »
You are creating your experience, you are the universe and everything in it, that is ultimate responsibility. You grew your own eyes, the most beautiful jewels in the universe. Light does not exist, you evoke light with your own eyes. Surfaces are hard because of your own soft skin. You turn vibrations into sound with your own ears. Theses things exist only because of you, you are experiencing the universe. You are everything.

What about the blind? did they just do a bad job of growing their eyes?

I would argue that light & sound DO exist, and most of us are fortunate enough to be able to perceive it.

Everything exists regardless of our ability to perceive it.  We are not everything.  We are humans who live a certain amount of years and have a certain experience. 

We analyze established religions with our logical minds.  Why would we accept this type of spiritual theory without scrutiny?  I get that more established religions are more powerful and therefore there is more at stake.  But we risk adopting this type of mentality mindlessly if we just go with it because it seems harmless and sounds provocative and poetic.  And that would be a shame, because as Zoltani himself would agree, it's important to live an examined life.




zoltani

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 928
  • Location: PNW
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #433 on: June 15, 2017, 12:14:26 PM »
I did not make this stuff up, it is all part of eastern philosophy, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.

For a good introduction into eastern thought take a look at Alan Watt's TV series
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gyTymQobR8&list=PL02D3110151849463

The materialist view of the world, that the brain creates consciousness, that we are somehow separate from the world and do not create the experience in our own minds is certainly the most widely accepted view in the western world. If that is true then why does our brain make us aware of only about 2% of what it perceives?

To me consciousness is the largest mystery in science. I personally do not believe that the brain creates consciousness, that after the brain shuts off consciousness is just gone. Best description I heard was a TV analogy, just because the TV is turned off doesn't mean that the TV signal is not transmitted. There is just no physical thing to receive it.

Too many trips? Haha. No, but DMT does interest me, especially the fact that we naturally produce it in our body and it is theorized that our brain releases it when we die. There's just not enough research into this molecule and its purpose. Luckily researchers and neuroscientists are coming around and starting to do some research into this area.
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

zoltani

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 928
  • Location: PNW
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #434 on: June 15, 2017, 12:26:27 PM »
I guess all those quantum physicists are also "crazy", or went on too many trips.

Here is a snippet of a long article about these theories:

Stanford University physicist Andrei Linde believes this quantum paradox gets to the heart of Wheeler's idea about the nature of the universe: The principles of quantum mechanics dictate severe limits on the certainty of our knowledge.

 "You may ask whether the universe really existed before you start looking at it," he says. "That's the same Schrödinger cat question. And my answer would be that the universe looks as if it existed before I started looking at it. When you open the cat's box after a week, you're going to find either a live cat or a smelly piece of meat. You can say that the cat looks as if it were dead or as if it were alive during the whole week. Likewise, when we look at the universe, the best we can say is that it looks as if it were there 10 billion years ago."

 Linde believes that Wheeler's intuition of the participatory nature of reality is probably right. But he differs with Wheeler on one crucial point. Linde believes that conscious observers are an essential component of the universe and cannot be replaced by inanimate objects.

"The universe and the observer exist as a pair," Linde says. "You can say that the universe is there only when there is an observer who can say, Yes, I see the universe there. These small words — it looks like it was here— for practical purposes it may not matter much, but for me as a human being, I do not know any sense in which I could claim that the universe is here in the absence of observers. We are together, the universe and us. The moment you say that the universe exists without any observers, I cannot make any sense out of that. I cannot imagine a consistent theory of everything that ignores consciousness. A recording device cannot play the role of an observer, because who will read what is written on this recording device? In order for us to see that something happens, and say to one another that something happens, you need to have a universe, you need to have a recording device, and you need to have us. It's not enough for the information to be stored somewhere, completely inaccessible to anybody. It's necessary for somebody to look at it. You need an observer who looks at the universe. In the absence of observers, our universe is dead.

http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

aceyou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
  • Age: 34
    • Life is Good - Aceyou's Journal
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #435 on: June 18, 2017, 08:38:50 PM »
My wife and I are in the same position.  We were both raised to be VERY religious, and it was a central part of both of our lives and belief system.  We dated throughout high school/college, and got married right after college.  Now, 10 years later, it was a slow process, but neither of us consider ourselves to be at all religious anymore, but our parents/families are still very religious. 

Why we are now non-religious:
-For my wife it was traveling around the world.  She saw all the different ways people lived.  Different religions, value systems, and was like wow, I guess you don't have to be a christian to be a good person.  There's lots of ways to be an awesome member of this world, and I can't say that my beliefs are more correct than anyone else's.  In fact, it's likely that none of us have it figured out.

-For me it was my analytical nature.  I noticed that I treated my christian faith with a totally different set of rules than how I thought through everything else in my life.  So, I started doing mental exercises.  For example, I'd say, Ok, suppose I had not been raised in any particular faith, would I logically pick the one I have.  Objectively we know that throughout history there's thousands of different sects of religions, and tons more that never got recorded.  If I had the time and put in the effort to study them, would I logically be able to put together an argument using logical or empirical evidence that christianity is the clear explanation for the creation of our universe.  I concluded that no, it would not stand out, I was likely just catholic because I was born to a catholic family.  I went further and asked, could I conclude using logical or empirical evidence that there is a god at all.  Again, no...so maybe I'm an atheist i thought?  To go there, I'd have to conclude using logical or empirical evidence that there is not a god.  I couldn't personally prove that, nor could I find arguments from others that proved it to my satisfaction.  So, logically, I decided that I'm agnostic.  I see zero evidence that a god exists, but can't disprove it either.  The smartest people in the world don't know how/why the universe came to be, and neither do I.   

My strategy for my extended family.  I do not lie to my relatives, but only share when asked and I try to be positive.  For example, a week ago my mother-in-law was cutting my hair.  She lives close to us and knows we never go to church anymore and don't have a desire to.  She often makes little probes to gauge what's up, and has been more forthright with them lately:)  Something about christmas came up, I don't know why, but it was something family related.  I mentioned that I love christmas, and that it's one of my favorite times of the year.  She asked if it was because of of spiritual or strictly family reasons.  I told her that no, it is no longer a spiritual thing for me.  At this point for me, christmas is a time where I see many relatives who I have great memories with.  I said that I really enjoy going to my hometown church to see the people I grew up with, and to remember the good memories I had there as a child.  I told her that my experiences with my church and christianity were almost all very positive, some of the best memories of my life.  It's just that I no longer view it as an explanation for how the universe was formed and what our role in the universe is. 

Since I really did have almost all positive experiences with church, I always try to emphasize this when asked by relatives.  I don't want family and old friends to feel like it's personal due to any negative experiences I've had. 

Vindicated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Indianapolis
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #436 on: June 19, 2017, 07:47:04 AM »
...a week ago my mother-in-law was cutting my hair....

...It's just that I no longer view it as an explanation for how the universe was formed and what our role in the universe is. 


How'd the haircut turn out? :)
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

"Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” - Dalai Lama

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1909
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #437 on: June 19, 2017, 01:15:48 PM »
I guess you don't have to be a christian to be a good person.  There's lots of ways to be an awesome member of this world, and I can't say that my beliefs are more correct than anyone else's.  In fact, it's likely that none of us have it figured out.

I completely agree with your first point, that you don't have to be a Christian to be a good person. But, I disagree with the assertion that one can't say whether their beliefs are any more correct than anyone else's. I think there's all kinds of objective, logical, and analytical methods to determine the likely veracity of certain beliefs over others. As a Christian, I've found that there are many, many people who were raised as Catholics (and sometimes some other Christian denominations, but especially Catholics) who have pretty much zero understanding of it or why it is more believable than something like, say, Zoroastrianism or Greek Mythology or Promise Keepers. They are, as you alluded, just going through the motions because they were raised that way, but if they stopped to check it out and carefully analyze it, they may very well find out that Christianity has a whole helluva lot more evidence for it than other religions.

Like, I'll pick on Scientology for a moment. Sorry Scientologists, but that "belief" system or religion, if you can call it that, is just ridiculous and obviously made up by its creator, the science fiction writer. There's no legitimate reason for anyone to believe its outlandish back-story. I know it feels good in a PC-kinda-way to say that all religions are created equal, there's no reason to believe one is any more true or legitimate than the other, etc.; but the fact is they are not all equally true or believable or upstanding (not directing any of this at you @aceyou, I'm just speaking out in general).

Plus it's hard equating or comparing certain "religions" too. For example, I really treasure Taoist teachings. But Taoism is a lot different than Christianity, and I don't really see them as competing philosophies or religions. I'm not even sure Taoism is a "religion" like Christianity and vice-versa. Taoism and Buddhism are very inclusive (Buddhists think Christians can achieve enlightenment just like a Buddhist can), whereas Christianity is very exclusive (you're not saved, you'll be excluded from the kingdom of God if you don't profess faith in Christ). Hence so many problems.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

Lis

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 686
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #438 on: June 19, 2017, 01:41:50 PM »
I went further and asked, could I conclude using logical or empirical evidence that there is a god at all.  Again, no...so maybe I'm an atheist i thought?  To go there, I'd have to conclude using logical or empirical evidence that there is not a god.  I couldn't personally prove that, nor could I find arguments from others that proved it to my satisfaction.  So, logically, I decided that I'm agnostic.  I see zero evidence that a god exists, but can't disprove it either.  The smartest people in the world don't know how/why the universe came to be, and neither do I.   

Out of curiosity, do you have any urge or desire to find out if there is a god? My viewpoint very much aligns with yours (can't prove yes, can't prove no), but I also have no desire to search for that yes or no answer. I just try to be a good person in my day-to-day life, and if there is a god to judge me at the end, great - I don't have any regrets, and if there's not, well okay then, I still won't regret being a good person.

libertarian4321

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #439 on: June 19, 2017, 05:36:58 PM »
I guess you don't have to be a christian to be a good person.  There's lots of ways to be an awesome member of this world, and I can't say that my beliefs are more correct than anyone else's.  In fact, it's likely that none of us have it figured out.


Like, I'll pick on Scientology for a moment. Sorry Scientologists, but that "belief" system or religion, if you can call it that, is just ridiculous and obviously made up by its creator, the science fiction writer. There's no legitimate reason for anyone to believe its outlandish back-story.

Yeah, it's ridiculous to believe in the fairy tales created by a charismatic 20th century science fiction author.

But how is it any more ridiculous than a religion created 2,000 years ago by a charismatic Jewish carpenter who led around a bunch of illiterate but dedicated followers?

Or a religion created 600 years ago by a charismatic soldier in the Arabian desert?

Or a religion created 190 years ago by a charismatic treasure hunter in upstate NY?

All religions have certain tenets that sound bat shit crazy to someone who isn't of that religion.  Who is to say which version of "bat shit crazy" is less, or more, worthy than the others?

All religions are equally valid.

Praise God. 

I once was lost, but now am saved, for I have been touched by His noodly appendage...

All hail the FSM!

libertarian4321

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #440 on: June 19, 2017, 05:50:47 PM »

Okay. Whatever.

I guess it's a little bit like I'm administering palliative chemo to you. If it makes you feel better, and it helps you slip into a place that's comfortable for you, I'm totally fine with helping you out.
Quote
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

This is off topic, but thanks for adding the "Libertarian candidate" part to your sig file as I suggested!

Or is it off-topic?  Maybe I prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and He made it happen...

The FSM is the one-true God, He gets things DONE!

Have you ever prayed to your God and had him FAIL to deliver?  You know you have.

It's time to get with the one God you can rely on- convert to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!


Kris

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #441 on: June 19, 2017, 07:48:21 PM »

Okay. Whatever.

I guess it's a little bit like I'm administering palliative chemo to you. If it makes you feel better, and it helps you slip into a place that's comfortable for you, I'm totally fine with helping you out.
Quote
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

This is off topic, but thanks for adding the "Libertarian candidate" part to your sig file as I suggested!

Or is it off-topic?  Maybe I prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and He made it happen...

The FSM is the one-true God, He gets things DONE!

Have you ever prayed to your God and had him FAIL to deliver?  You know you have.

It's time to get with the one God you can rely on- convert to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!



I think the FSM is one thing you and I can both agree on, Libertarian.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Dave1442397

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 442
  • Location: NJ
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #442 on: June 20, 2017, 05:51:57 AM »
But to be clear, there is not a 'mountain of evidence' for the crucifixion.
Unless of course we have different definitions of 'mountain.'

One of my favorite SF stories on the subject is Garry Kilworth's Let's Go to Golgotha!

From the wiki blurb -

Time-travelling tourists go on a "Crucifixion Tour." The tour operator warns the tourists that they must not do anything to disrupt history: specifically, when the crowd is asked whether to spare Jesus or Barabbas, the tourists must all join the call "Give us Barabbas!" (a priest absolves them from any guilt for so doing). However, when the moment comes, the protagonist suddenly realizes that the crowd condemning Jesus to the cross is composed entirely of tourists from the future, and that no actual Jewish Jerusalemites of 33 AD are present at all.

craiglepaige

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 691
  • Location: Ohio
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #443 on: June 20, 2017, 07:46:22 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

Meaning I consider myself to be a good person. I love my family and friends and wish nothing but the best for them. I treat others with respect and hope for the same. I don't break "the rules" given to us by governing bodies and have never tried to hurt anyone for pleasure nor revenge.  But why is that not good enough?

I have been told many times, "You need to be saved. You need God in your life. You need to repent your sins".  But what sins? Being born? 

I think I will continue to live my life the way I have and wish good upon others. I believe in positive energy and negative one, so I try to keep positive.
-The conqueror will always become a slave to his conquest.

- Eres Un Esclavo Financiero
https://youtu.be/GO1Fsp4cUTQ

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1909
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #444 on: June 20, 2017, 08:27:40 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.
"Not all quotes on the internet are accurate" -- Abraham Lincoln

Vindicated

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Indianapolis
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #445 on: June 20, 2017, 08:33:26 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?
The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Hmm.  I think the idea that "You have to accept Jesus, regardless of how good or bad of a person you are" is a man-made idea.
My MMM Journal: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/my-almost-perfect-life-experience/

"Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” - Dalai Lama

bender

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 765
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #446 on: June 20, 2017, 08:42:59 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

Meaning I consider myself to be a good person. I love my family and friends and wish nothing but the best for them. I treat others with respect and hope for the same. I don't break "the rules" given to us by governing bodies and have never tried to hurt anyone for pleasure nor revenge.  But why is that not good enough?

I have been told many times, "You need to be saved. You need God in your life. You need to repent your sins".  But what sins? Being born? 

I think I will continue to live my life the way I have and wish good upon others. I believe in positive energy and negative one, so I try to keep positive.

I'm with you on that Craig.  I have relatives that tell me the same - being good isn't good enough.  That does not work with my values and the attempts to explain this are not logical to me.

Mississippi Mudstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1485
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Fernandina Beach, FL
    • A Riving Home - Ramblings of a Recusant Woodworker
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #447 on: June 20, 2017, 09:14:03 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).
“There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.” -John Ruskin

My Woodworking Blog

zoltani

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 928
  • Location: PNW
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #448 on: June 20, 2017, 09:25:04 AM »
Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

See, that is what gets me. Christ was showing us what is possible if we accept suffering. Once you accept suffering then you have the possibility to achieve enlightenment, to understand the connection between you, nature, and the universe. The allegory of him arising from the dead is just that, him reaching enlightenment by accepting suffering. IMO Christians take the story too literally and then say that only Christ can do that. They say that if you accept that Christ suffered for you then you can reach enlightenment, or at least their version, heaven. It takes the burden of responsibility off of the one who should be enlightened. 

Buddha told his followers that life is suffering and that suffering comes from desire. So they tried to stomp out desire, spit on it, rid themselves of it, but they still desired. They went to the Buddha and said that they had done everything the could to rid themselves of desire to which he replied that they were still desiring to not desire. This is a story about clinging to things, attachment.

I love zen koans, particularly this one about Gutei Isshi, who lived in 9th century china:

Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a question about Zen. A boy attendant began to imitate him in this way. When anyone asked the boy what his master had preached about, the boy would raise his finger.

Gutei heard about the boy's mischief. He seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and ran away. Gutei called and stopped him. When the boy turned his head to Gutei, Gutei raised up his own finger. In that instant the boy was enlightened.

When Gutei was about to pass from this world he gathered his monks around him. "I attained my finger-Zen," he said, "from my teacher Tenryū, and in my whole life I could not exhaust it." Then he passed away.
 
In essence it says that there are many ways to reach enlightenment and you must find your own way. There are many paths to take and they all lead the same way. The bickering over which one is correct or true is cutting off your own finger. It's a story about clinging to what is not important, attachment. 

“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

Sailor Sam

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5427
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: That's me in the corner... losing my religion.
« Reply #449 on: June 20, 2017, 09:28:35 AM »
One question for religious folks here, why is good not good enough?

As far as the Christian perspective goes, being "good" is not the point to salvation. It's like saying, "I wear shirts and eat chicken for dinner 3x a week, why don't I get to go to heaven?" It has nothing to do with what God expects for salvation. The idea that "good people should go to heaven" is a man-made idea.

Christianity is about Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for the sins of mankind in general, not you or me in particular. The only way you get to heaven is accepting the sacrifice Christ made for us all. You or I can't be good enough to atone for the sins of mankind, only Jesus could do that. To use another silly analogy, from God's perspective, it might be like me saying, "Hey I'm a good guy, I rarely swear and I treat people nicely. So can you just forget about that whole Holocaust thing, and us worshiping a bunch of other gods and things that aren't You, plus the Rwandan genocide, and the Rape of Nanking, and..." God can only accept me or anyone else from the standpoint we are covered by Christ's sacrifice/atonement, when we accept that atonement.

You do understand why this belief sounds ridiculous to those who disagree, don't you? If the creator of the universe wants to eternally persecute me for failing to believe tales of magic for which no evidence exists, that makes him an asshole. I can't really interpret it in any other way (even after spending 30 years trying to convince myself that I did).

I'm not Doubledown, but yeah, I get it. You don't believe, and it's all magic. Cool. However, Doubledown was just answering a question. Why barge in with your hackles up, and be a dick?

I mean, if person 1 asked a Hindu about dharma, and person 2 answered, would you as person 3 flail around and start berating the poor Hindu their magical and ridiculous beliefs? Or would your good fucking manners kick in?

What is it about Christianity that causes everyone to become so unhinged and so goddamn aggressive?